The Art of Manliness - #314： Building Better Citizens Through Rucking

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast well back in 2012

00:00:19.520 the owners of huckberry introduced me to a guy who owned a company called go ruck besides making

00:00:24.480 high quality ruck packs i also learned that go ruck put on these all-night events in which

00:00:28.440 participants hauled a 40 pound weight in their backpack while being led through a series of

00:00:32.420 physically and mentally grueling exercises like push-ups bear crawls and carrying an 800 pound

00:00:37.800 log with their teammates and that's how i found myself in downtown oklahoma city at 12 in the

00:00:42.520 morning sitting in a pond next to my brother and below freezing weather in the middle of november

00:00:48.240 nine hours hundreds of squat thrusts later and 12 miles later i finished my first go ruck challenge

00:00:54.080 since then i've done other go ruck events and i've learned a lot about resilience leadership and

00:00:57.780 teamwork in the process and today on the show i talked to the founder of go ruck jason mccarthy

00:01:02.040 who started the company after serving as a green beret in iraq what began as a backpack company has

00:01:06.680 morphed into a tight-knit community of people looking to push themselves through what jason calls

00:01:10.460 good living today on the show jason i discuss where the idea of the go ruck events came from and what

00:01:15.240 a man can learn about leadership teamwork and community by doing hard things with other people

00:01:19.660 after the show is over check out the show notes at aom.is slash go ruck where you find links to

00:01:24.400 resources where you delve deeper into this topic jason mccarthy welcome to the show thanks for

00:01:33.740 having me brett so you're the founder of a company that i have a love hate relationship with go ruck

00:01:39.180 i love your bags i love hate your events and we'll talk about those here in a bit but before there we

00:01:46.040 get to there let's talk a bit about your background before you started go ruck what did you do before you

00:01:52.320 started a company that makes awesome backpacks oh thanks uh yeah so 9 11 happened and you know i was

00:01:59.160 just graduated from college and really didn't know what i was going to do with my life but that sort of

00:02:03.700 shook up whatever plans i didn't have and so ultimately i wanted to join the military i wanted

00:02:08.620 to serve america in a time of war like you know the entire greatest generation did and that's sort of

00:02:13.920 been passed on from generation to generation in some ways but you know this was sort of a shake-up call

00:02:20.020 for for me so i enlisted in 2003 you know after the iraq war it sort of kicked off and made it through

00:02:28.540 special forces training so was on a special forces a team from 2006 to 2008 and what special forces unit

00:02:37.560 were you with i was with 10th special forces group the first and best of them all right so it's army

00:02:45.060 special forces right so often referred to as the green berets which is you know it's we're the only

00:02:50.900 we're the only unit trained to conduct unconventional warfare right so it's sort of by with and through

00:02:57.460 local partners right so the best example of because i i get this question a lot and i hear special forces

00:03:04.840 thrown out there a lot it typically really means army special forces within the military circles

00:03:10.860 and the best example of what makes green berets different than some of the other units is that we

00:03:16.220 we work by with and through local partner forces so the best example of that was post 9-11 we sent a

00:03:23.040 couple hundred green berets in afghanistan into the boneyard of the soviet empire and we linked up with

00:03:28.560 the northern alliance to defeat the taliban so not just go in with helicopters assaulters and guns 0.85

00:03:34.220 and defeat the taliban but use the northern alliance as a force multiplier to achieve

00:03:39.440 our mission right so you know then in two months we're we've got a new president of afghanistan that

00:03:45.540 was sworn in right i mean it's it was a pretty awesome feat and it's it's a pretty amazing regiment

00:03:52.120 community to have to have been a part of because there's just so many giants shoulders that we're all

00:03:56.900 standing on so how long did you do that stint in the military are you and then when did you start

00:04:02.880 go rock right so i was in the military from 2003 to 2008 right and i was married to a girl the the

00:04:12.940 absolute love of my life and and she was in the foreign service so she was serving in west africa

00:04:19.080 right and in africa and actually while we were married there there was a there was something that

00:04:24.720 came out that said the three worst cities in the world to live in were enjamina chad abijan

00:04:29.800 cote d'ivoire and and baghdad and we hit all three of those right while we were married you know kind

00:04:34.840 of afar and and doing our thing and and so the original idea for go rock though came when i visited

00:04:42.680 her which was in in abijan which is west africa right like next to ghana and places like that

00:04:48.680 and you know it was surprising because in some ways it was more scary than the first time i showed up in

00:04:55.560 baghdad because in baghdad you've got a team right you're really tight and you're good at work

00:04:59.680 and here it's kind of like they love a good coup in africa it could happen at any time and so you've

00:05:05.580 got to be ready all of the time right and so you're you're driving around you've got your truck you've

00:05:10.420 got your whatever and you just don't it's just a general sense of unease and so i built a bag

00:05:16.800 for her with additional supplies extra ammo or sorry for me in war it was extra ammo and extra

00:05:23.360 batteries and extra grenades and extra stuff like that for her it was more like you know flashlights

00:05:28.800 and what she would do in case of a coup if she was outside of the capital or away from home

00:05:32.760 i built another one that that stayed at our home right in in west africa and and so the idea was

00:05:39.620 to be ready in a time of crisis or a time of emergency and even as our sort of personal life

00:05:47.700 started crashing down because we've been married for five years and never lived together there was

00:05:52.240 this idea of you should do the go ruck thing and so the go ruck thing did not become the private

00:05:56.900 security consulting service in west africa that i destined myself to live there and sort of build

00:06:03.000 because slowly i found myself sleeping on my my buddy's couch in the east village in new york city

00:06:09.000 with an idea for go rock and that was about it right so the idea for the bag lived on and then the

00:06:15.620 difficulty was how to how to get it manufactured and not knowing anything about manufacturing that

00:06:21.520 posed a whole new set of problems right so uh the design of the bag i mean they're really sturdy i

00:06:27.860 mean i i've got several of them i use one of them for my go bag kind of what you created for your wife

00:06:33.020 and for yourself and also as an ammo bag um sort of a gun bag what was the inspiration behind the

00:06:38.840 design of the bag was it something that you used in your days as a green beret right so the term

00:06:44.320 go rock was sort of slang you know go bag bug out bag that's what you would put in the trunk of the

00:06:49.660 humvee when you go out on a mission right and so the military has all the best stuff and special

00:06:55.560 forces has the has the better best stuff and so we got a lot of access to a lot of different

00:07:00.320 assault type packs but what i found over time especially as i personally was transitioning out

00:07:07.060 of the military was that they don't really transition to civilian life very well everyone wants

00:07:13.940 the toughness but you don't always want to have a trillion straps all over the place right

00:07:19.280 so i had some assault packs you know they were black hawk and camelback and there was an lbt

00:07:24.680 giant special forces medical pack that i used for emily in in west africa and so those were

00:07:30.680 certainly inspirations from a hey these are construction this is the material there's a

00:07:35.520 little bit of velcro and in their case there was a lot of velcro there were compression straps all

00:07:39.720 over the place and they looked like military assault packs the the original goal was to say hey

00:07:45.940 we want one bag that's going to go that's going to thrive in baghdad and in new york city right

00:07:52.600 because that's what that was the the convergence of my life you know i'm sleeping on my buddy's couch

00:07:57.840 in the east village having sort of my heart still with my team who was back in war at that time and life

00:08:03.920 was not in a really good place for me so this bag became this sort of symbol in my own head right

00:08:10.540 for this bridge between these two worlds that i was starting to try to cross myself and then obviously

00:08:18.520 the events became a further extension of that right so you didn't know anything about manufacturing

00:08:23.520 how did you learn that did you just trial by fire you just oh it was it was the the biggest problem

00:08:31.020 was everything i had no idea right i didn't know the difference between r&d and scale manufacturing

00:08:38.360 i didn't know how to sew i didn't know where materials came from i don't know how i didn't

00:08:42.420 know anything so i actually placed an ad in craigslist new york city and this was 2008 so you go

00:08:49.940 back then and the economy was not in a good place and so this small this team of this couple had been

00:08:56.740 laid off their job in new zealand and then moved back to montana and they were trolling for work to pay

00:09:01.800 the bills right so in these these times of bad economies and stress they're really opportunities

00:09:06.320 because you've got a lot of people out there with all this talent that they just want to put to work

00:09:11.240 right so sometimes you got to take a chance on things and had a little bit of money from you know

00:09:15.500 saving up from deployments and stuff where they don't let you spend all that much money even if you

00:09:20.020 wanted to so they answered my craigslist new york city ad and they had sort of a a website and stuff

00:09:27.960 it seemed really professional and nice and that was great right so they taught me this was such a

00:09:33.380 blessing in disguise though because they were awesome it was trish and sky wookie and they were 0.96

00:09:38.180 just awesome they taught me the entire process of what things are that's the stupidest questions

00:09:43.620 right and and yet through this sort of combination of because you know they had sort of a background

00:09:49.360 in hiking and in the outdoor world and my background was in military and in the carry the ways that you

00:09:56.480 carry things and the way that you choose to to create load-bearing systems are philosophically and

00:10:02.800 fundamentally completely different between civilian hikers and the military right and there was this

00:10:08.000 merging that we had between those two worlds that that i got from working with them and so they taught

00:10:14.980 me a lot about the process and then in the end we had what became gr1 in our original lines of rucks

00:10:21.480 right and are they all manufactured here in the u.s they are yes yeah it's one of the big seller selling

00:10:28.080 points for me so besides the the original gr1 you guys have branched out to other products anything

00:10:34.560 in particular stands out to you that you're really proud of yeah so the origin i mean the original line

00:10:39.180 of rucks is what is our flagship sort of line right and those came about because i kept telling sky i was

00:10:46.400 like i would just want one rock right like one rock kiss keep it simple stupid and he's like man it's 0.82

00:10:51.460 just not much work to just add an extra compartment to another one and call it you know gr2 or whatever 0.94

00:10:57.200 and then you know make another one smaller you might find that people want a little variety and

00:11:01.620 i'm really glad we did that it did add some complexity but so that's sort of our flagship

00:11:06.340 what we're really turning toward now is the apparel side right and in that the the simple pants the

00:11:13.840 challenge pants those are sort of the flagship products of that at this time but behind the scenes

00:11:18.800 there's a lot more stuff coming and this is through again a great partnership that we have

00:11:23.740 with joe duhan at kl manufacturing out in spokane washington they build all of our our apparel it's

00:11:29.620 obviously made and made in the states and we're really turning toward that for more you know broad

00:11:36.380 appeal if you will i mean apparel is a different game they say it's really hard and i you know they

00:11:41.280 say everything's hard so you know that just means work hard be smart whatever that is set your mind to it

00:11:47.800 and and you can do it so we have a great partnership with him you know like at the last olympics 25

00:11:53.360 countries were wearing performance gear that he had built in spokane washington stuff like that so

00:11:58.340 he's a great partner we're scaling up with him doing a lot of the the r&d work directly with him and

00:12:04.120 then field testing it and and back for more so the apparel is in its infancy relative to where it's going

00:12:10.260 and we're really proud of it awesome well let's shift gears and talk about the events but before we talk

00:12:15.380 about the the event specifically let's talk about the act of rucking what is rucking is it just putting

00:12:21.120 on a backpack and walking right so rucking comes it's a military word right like it's really there's

00:12:27.760 no such thing as backpacking in the military everything is rucking you know in a backpack there's

00:12:33.020 no such thing as a backpack there's a ruck or a rucksack right so it's really a verb and a noun

00:12:37.900 you you wear a ruck and you go for a ruck you go rucking or or however you can say it that

00:12:44.380 doesn't confuse all of those english words that i probably just messed up but the the point is is

00:12:49.600 that this is the foundation of all special forces training you put some weight on your back and you

00:12:54.440 go for a walk now more weight it's harder to go faster of course less weight it's easier to go

00:13:00.240 faster there are there are sort of training implications on your body right i mean what i

00:13:05.040 don't recommend doing is is the amount of weight that you have to carry in special forces training

00:13:10.380 you know that that gets to be a lot like some of it was 125 pounds plus for you know the better part

00:13:16.680 of days right and and that's that's too much that's the military takes the fun out of pretty much all of

00:13:23.000 that kind of stuff right like scuba diving it's fun until you have to go to dive school which i didn't

00:13:27.080 but a lot of my buddies did you know it's like you think jumping out of planes is fun well how would

00:13:30.800 you like to wake up at three in the morning and stand there in line for six hours before you get

00:13:35.220 your like three second fix right i mean it's just there's a lot of fun that the military takes out

00:13:40.500 of things but the foundational fitness element of special forces training is just to go for a ruck

00:13:46.400 put some weight on your back and you go for a walk that's awesome and there's like a lot of benefits i

00:13:50.680 think you did a video a while back ago saying like you know you get about the same amount of like

00:13:55.140 workout doing a an hour-long ruck than you would run in a 5k or something like that right so so look

00:14:01.840 everybody hates to run right i hate to run we as a as a culture as a society we've been almost shamed

00:14:09.100 into becoming fit right like when you played high school sports and you messed up as a team what did

00:14:14.860 they do they made you go run right because it sucks that bad you know and so there are fitness

00:14:20.780 benefits to rucking as opposed to running like for instance every time you go for a run every stride

00:14:26.900 you take you put between seven and 12 times your body weight onto your knee right when you rock

00:14:32.060 because the gate is different you put between two and three times your body weight plus whatever

00:14:37.100 you're carrying right onto your knee so the impact on your knee is significantly less they don't call

00:14:42.480 it runner's knee for nothing right because it's it's running as hard on your knees there's there's also

00:14:48.120 the the resistance part of rucking is that you're putting weight on your back right and you're moving

00:14:53.560 with really your money makers your glutes and your and your thighs right so those are getting a workout

00:14:59.940 as well in addition to your shoulders and your back so people in the military they have big strong backs

00:15:06.140 not because there's a back machine at the military gyms that's exclusive to those it's because there's

00:15:11.680 more time underweight and to sort of modernize this as well you know all of us have phones and we stare

00:15:19.020 down at those phones or we stare down at our screens and it starts to round our our neck forward

00:15:24.740 this is really bad for our posture because our body gets used to that and then we stay in that sort of

00:15:31.080 position more easily well with rucking when you put the weight on your shoulders and back what you'll find

00:15:36.680 is that it's really uncomfortable to try to roll your shoulders forward so in essence as you're rucking

00:15:41.900 you're correcting your posture that you're doing while you sit at your desk or stare at your phone all day

00:15:47.680 it's awesome and walking is just it's a foundational movement like i think that's such a useful

00:15:52.420 movement to have because if you know let's say the stuff does hit the fan and you got to get out

00:15:57.360 like you probably have to walk yeah i mean so it's like you want to be a hard target or you want to be

00:16:01.260 an easy target right like you need to you're probably not going to be judged by your ability to pick up a

00:16:07.240 car like mr incredible right you might but you probably won't it's probably can you evade an escape

00:16:12.740 right because when stuff does hit the fan the last thing you want to do is pick a fight right

00:16:19.000 like that's one of the things that you learn is this this special forces mindset is that if you're 0.99

00:16:24.480 going to get into a fight it should be a life or death fight bar fights and picking stupid fights 0.91

00:16:29.580 are it's for amateurs right like what you have to focus on is you know there's i'll walk away from 0.97

00:16:37.440 damn near any fight but if i get into a fight it's not going to be good right and in that same

00:16:43.480 type of mindset yeah you need to be able to move when it's time to evade an escape right yeah i 0.97

00:16:48.300 definitely prefer rucking over running if i need to do cardio i'll put on my 40 pound rucksack and just

00:16:53.740 go to a park nearby and just ruck as opposed to running i will do anything to avoid running it's not fun

00:16:59.220 so yeah and so the faster you go too i mean you get the the active part of active resistance training

00:17:05.420 aka rucking is the cardio so you know every meathead knows that running kills muscle cells

00:17:11.680 right i heard that a million times and when i was in my meathead phase right like i i would quote it

00:17:16.860 right like running kills muscle cells i don't want to do that right or running breeds cowardice stuff

00:17:21.140 like that right well rucking actually builds it and you get the cardio side of it so i think it's great

00:17:26.400 especially as americans get bigger as we get bigger stronger as well not just bigger but stronger

00:17:31.620 the more the more mass that you have the worse running is for your body so rucking is a is a

00:17:37.580 really solid alternative nice all right so let's talk about the events how did that start was that

00:17:41.920 a part of the original business plan was that sort of a happy accident that's blown out to something

00:17:45.920 really big so it was it was a total total accident and even as it was happening i really refused to

00:17:53.800 believe that it was happening so like i said early early on i had you know worked with this this

00:17:59.560 couple to get these bags built right and so the bags are built and i knew they were awesome i'm like

00:18:05.360 this year one is awesome right well so i turned the website on and that's how we were going to sell

00:18:11.280 and guess what happened you know nothing right because nobody knew about us so as a business what

00:18:17.020 you struggle with is awareness you have to tell people your story at this point in my life in 2010

00:18:25.080 when we first had the bags right the rucks if you will i really didn't want to tell my story because

00:18:31.540 i was not committed to go ruck i thought that i wanted to go back and serve america wherever she would

00:18:36.760 she would have me right like pick the worst place in the world that's where the most fun work is when 0.96

00:18:41.800 your business is unconventional warfare that kind of stuff right and so what i didn't want to be was

00:18:47.260 the face of a company because that would sabotage future abilities to serve well that's just where my

00:18:52.960 mindset was at the time so that said i had borrowed money from my dad who it was an investment but i'd

00:19:00.000 taken money from my dad a little bit to buy inventory to drive around to all 48 states to try

00:19:05.360 to you know tell people the story face to face right because that's going to get them to buy something

00:19:09.800 i guess right and what i found out quickly though is that nobody wanted to buy the bag and nobody knew

00:19:15.840 about us they're really expensive it's 300 for a backpack it's insane right it's insane you can go to

00:19:22.320 walmart of course and buy something for 20 bucks of course it's going to fall apart but it's just

00:19:26.480 people are conditioned to think that you know if it what things should cost right and so what happened

00:19:34.180 was i was like you know i've got every dollar in this product that i really believe in and i kept

00:19:39.100 going down the rabbit hole of investing more time and cash into it where i kind of i really hate to fail

00:19:45.440 and so this became something that you know i'm failing at my marriage at this time so it was

00:19:51.460 already basically done right and i'm like man i can't i can't handle another failure at this point

00:19:56.760 so i just sort of said all right i'm going to make this work right so the go ruck challenge became what

00:20:02.660 i thought would be a good opportunity for me to show up and take pictures of the class putting the the

00:20:10.540 bags through the paces so a lot of times you have to say what makes your bag different it's a really

00:20:15.760 simple question and it's it's easy enough to answer even but you have to show people too and so i thought

00:20:21.740 hey we'll get this team event loosely based around special forces training and i'll take pictures in

00:20:27.460 these beautiful cities and show these different environments where the bags are are still thriving

00:20:32.620 despite all of the stress right because what i could not do anymore was go back to iraq or go back

00:20:39.240 to africa and take pictures while i was in special forces so i kind of said hey i know how to build a

00:20:45.540 team i've done it before in the military working with foreign fighters i'm pretty sure i can do this

00:20:50.360 with americans right and so that was the that was the impetus for the challenge and when the people

00:20:56.020 first showed up i was surprised that they were almost excited to be there it was just kind of weird

00:21:01.660 because it was very unknown right and when you're in special forces the military coming from those

00:21:08.240 worlds you think that you have sort of a monopoly on doing really awesome stuff and yes you do get

00:21:15.160 to do really awesome stuff but there's a lot of people out there that share this same kindred spirit

00:21:19.900 the same love of life that want to push themselves to extremes and i found a lot of those people

00:21:24.280 through leading go rock challenges and in the course of this building teams and getting feedback from

00:21:29.740 people about they've never quite experienced anything like that and how they would take it back to

00:21:34.860 their daily lives what i did not foresee was that the go rock challenge would be about the people

00:21:40.040 wearing the rucks not the rucks that were on their backs right so people became the focus of go

00:21:46.080 rock through the challenge and via grassroots we we grew and that became the awareness driver that

00:21:54.020 go rock needed in order to get people to find out about us and what we believe in and what we stand for

00:21:59.780 and so now is that a big part of your businesses are the events you know so it's interestingly enough

00:22:05.980 it's it's a complex business to have two completely separate parts of a company and yet they collectively

00:22:16.860 form the go rock brand and so what i mean is operationally the manufacturing culture is largely a

00:22:25.440 nine to five type of blue collar work like my dad is a union member in ohio right like he shows up at

00:22:35.120 nine he leaves at five and you know yeah there's overtime sometimes but it's just it's machinery it's

00:22:40.540 really hard you're on your feet you're working with your hands all day long right and and then

00:22:45.940 you've got this this events culture which is you know we're it's it's just sort of it's there's a

00:22:52.860 back end and a headquarters that's marketing and stuff sure but the actual events you know they're

00:22:57.320 overnight it's extreme conditions of hours it's atypical it's it's the opposite of nine to five

00:23:03.040 so culturally putting both of those underneath the go rock umbrella has been a challenge like little c

00:23:10.740 as opposed to big c go rock challenge but it's also been what is sort of propelled us so as sort of a

00:23:16.560 tactical business case study if you will like the event revenue is about 25 percent of go rucks revenue

00:23:22.860 but it's it sort of controls the brand and then it raises awareness for the people who then come

00:23:29.460 through our universe and buy the gear the apparel the t-shirts the stuff the training the training

00:23:36.520 equipment stuff like that and so yeah i mean when you look at it nuts and bolts it's 25 percent of our

00:23:42.760 total revenue and it's about a break-even operation right like the margins on the events i mean depends

00:23:48.740 on how you assign overhead costs and all that type of stuff but it's it's not a profitable it's not a

00:23:54.440 profit center for us but early on in the early days what it was was people would pay today for an event

00:24:01.980 that was happening in the future and i used that money in order to buy more inventory so i sort of had

00:24:07.460 this sort of yin yang this house of cards almost thing going where it's like you're you're using

00:24:13.600 money that you know you have to you have to provide a service later but it's funneling into inventory

00:24:19.840 purchases now right so there was a fair amount of juggling and to a certain extent there's always

00:24:24.140 going to be a little bit of that right from a cash standpoint but so that's a little bit behind

00:24:29.020 the scenes nuts and bolts but ultimately for me it's it's one go ruck and i think about both sides

00:24:34.260 a lot and i think about how to use like how to strengthen gear with events and events with gear

00:24:41.020 so let's can you walk us through a go ruck challenge like if someone signs up for it

00:24:46.180 what should they expect so what did you expect before your first go ruck challenge i so i kind

00:24:53.300 of had an idea because i i i got introduced to you via the guys at huckberry and they told me

00:24:58.760 andy and rich andy and richard right and uh they told me about this thing i was like yeah i want to do

00:25:02.220 that so i got signed up for one i thought it was going to be hard but at the time like this is when

00:25:06.700 you guys were first starting the events so there really wasn't a lot out there on the internet about

00:25:10.480 you know kind of event breakdowns i just knew it was going to be all night i'd be doing a lot of

00:25:15.660 walking and there'd be push-ups that's what i was going in thinking so i mean seriously i trained for

00:25:20.760 this thing for like three months and i did some serious training i'd go to a football field wearing my

00:25:25.960 rucksack and i would do bear crawl like 100 yard bear crawls all sorts of crazy stuff to get ready for

00:25:31.420 this thing yeah yes so basically i mean now you can obviously read more about it and all of that

00:25:36.800 kind of stuff but in essence what it is is you sign up and you're part of a small class that becomes a

00:25:42.820 team so you show up on a random street corner in you know pre-designated right it's not a total

00:25:48.560 mystery um here's your start point and and a special forces guy shows up there now his job is to yes

00:25:55.960 challenge you and push you but ultimately it's about an outcome of what it feels like to be on

00:26:01.820 a team it's its own sort of sense of high right like when you're really on a on a team and you're

00:26:07.780 in combat operations or whatever it is you start to really operate like a pack it's got nothing to do

00:26:14.740 with the individual and it creates a heightened sense of awareness it creates like a real high

00:26:21.880 it's a high that you search for in life you know and you get that when you're on a team and so his

00:26:28.400 job the cadre's job is to make sure that the team experiences what a day in the life of training in

00:26:37.300 special forces feels like and that that fundamentally involves being part of a team so you show up in

00:26:44.000 in there's a there's you know physical challenges to sort of break down the barriers that we all

00:26:49.400 bring to anything we do with strangers right like you show up and it's like a middle school dance

00:26:54.320 at the beginning it's nervous it's awkward everyone's like oh my god what's going to happen

00:26:58.520 to me right that type of stuff and so the surest way to get people outside of their comfort zones and

00:27:05.840 to start working together is to put them in a stressful situation together so the the point is not the

00:27:12.340 specific exercise it's how you as a team start to work together and it's it's a long dance right

00:27:20.760 because it does take a while to get to break down the barriers and then build it back up but but look

00:27:26.980 it's not boot camp there's not yelling and screaming about you know you're a terrible person blah blah blah

00:27:32.600 right like save that stuff for the military this is more like frankly people are paying to do this

00:27:39.100 and so there's got to be an entertainment value and there's got to be a challenge challenging value

00:27:45.680 right like you find your demons and you punch them in the throat style you know but but the real value

00:27:52.120 comes in the evolution of the team so you appoint team leaders and there's missions hey you know get

00:27:58.740 everybody go from point a to point b in this type of time frame if you see this kind of car with with an

00:28:05.340 out-of-state license plate then you have to run off into the tree line and you know camouflage

00:28:10.660 yourselves right there's a point there's a method to the madness right and so something like that would

00:28:15.420 be designed to say hey you don't get to just stare at your feet when you're tired you know and so you're

00:28:21.260 on your way home so that even relates back to sort of special forces missions where the one of the

00:28:26.980 most dangerous parts of the mission is on the way home right you're you're tired you've got your

00:28:31.200 your chemical dump is is gone like you in theory could almost fall asleep right a lot of times you

00:28:36.600 do if you're on a helicopter but what you're not allowed to do if you're driving you have to still

00:28:41.760 look out for roadside bombs you have to still look out for people who are out and about in in the town

00:28:45.880 right so you've got to stay aware as part of your team because that's how the pack thrives together

00:28:50.640 right because everyone's got got a set of eyes and you got to pay attention so there's just various

00:28:56.220 missions to help you know the team come together you build contraptions you carry logs you like you

00:29:03.600 name it right google go rough you'll see a lot of the stuff that goes on right yeah the missions i've

00:29:08.240 been in that like someone always gets injured right pretend injured right then you have to carry you

00:29:14.140 have to carry them figure that out and that's always hard and like the often like the cadre are

00:29:18.560 like they won't pick the ladies because you're like they're the lightest but like they'll pick like 0.64

00:29:21.560 the heaviest guy oh always the biggest yeah you always pick them you know and and so you know

00:29:28.220 part of it is is that it's also you don't know when this is going to end right that's a huge difference

00:29:34.880 between say going road running or a marathon or you know a road race whatever it's like you start

00:29:41.040 and then you know they give you your mile markers and then it's over this this is not about the miles

00:29:48.020 per se it's about how the team is working the event as it unfolds it's in the mind of the cadre who's

00:29:54.260 leading the class so if if the team starts infighting and bickering it's my biggest pet peeve right like

00:30:01.440 cool breeds cool and our job as cadre is to ratchet up the stress factor now when you ratchet up the

00:30:08.480 stress factor what it does is people get short with each other they get you know they snap at each

00:30:13.420 other stuff like that well our job is is to correct that and and that's like how life should work right

00:30:19.620 i mean if you have a bad attitude fix your attitude it's not the world's it's not everyone around you

00:30:25.760 it's not their problem that you're having a bad day you know and and so that's our job is to make sure

00:30:32.220 that that type of stuff doesn't happen so that's the the go ruck what is it called now like when i was

00:30:38.000 doing it back in 2012 there was just the go ruck challenge that was it but now you've expanded the

00:30:43.680 line so i guess like the north like the the all-night event is called go ruck tough right so

00:30:48.480 the challenge is the series now right okay so there's the go ruck light the go ruck tough and

00:30:53.740 the go ruck heavy and they're they're basically all three of them are founded on the same type of special

00:30:59.400 forces lessons learned and teamwork leadership communication stuff like that the the biggest

00:31:05.380 difference is just the amount of time and the amount of stress if you will that's placed upon

00:31:11.700 the participants because it's not linear right so the light is intentionally very accepting and very

00:31:17.900 fun there's not enough time for the cadre to to be too tough on you if you will and and one of our

00:31:25.000 guidelines for the cadre is that they have to be liked and so you know you never say that to someone

00:31:31.400 who's a drill sergeant they need to be respected right but they also need to be liked because this

00:31:37.260 is an event that people are giving up their time and money to come be a part of because they want a

00:31:42.140 great experience and if they're angry or this is a boot camp type thing they're not going to have a

00:31:47.920 positive experience so the light there's not enough time to really ratchet down on the class to to still

00:31:56.040 sort of be liked frankly because you've got a lot of people and there's there's a method to the madness

00:32:01.040 always so yes it's challenging but we don't get to take you into sort of the depths of your your spirit

00:32:08.260 animal right the tough the 12-hour event you know formerly and and will always be the original go ruck

00:32:15.220 challenge the original go ruck event you will find your spirit animal there for sure and it's because we just

00:32:21.800 have a lot of time so you know the classic blueprint for the go ruck tough challenge is a three-hour

00:32:28.220 welcome party right that means three hours of crossfit to start it out right and if that's not

00:32:34.220 for you then it's not for you but it's for more people than than think it is right everybody says oh

00:32:40.360 i can't do that that's crazy then they show up and they do it and they you know these are the ones

00:32:44.720 that become lifelong converts and and then there's the the heavy which is you know you'll find multiple

00:32:50.040 spirit animals at that one yeah i haven't done that one i haven't done have i've done like probably

00:32:55.820 three toughs yeah haven't done the heavy yet and then you guys have one that's like brutal is selection

00:33:02.540 which is we do 48 hours right so that's a different that's a different event entirely and so first off

00:33:09.720 you're you're on the hook for heavy you're due i've i've heard you're an awesome teammate at all of

00:33:14.080 your events i know you love to lift heavy stuff because i get your newsletters right and uh right you

00:33:19.820 know heavy is just lifting heavy stuff for longer right so uh it's it's a good one though it's still

00:33:25.200 the team event it's still the same philosophy of working together and stuff it's just longer pushes

00:33:29.240 you harder so selection is kind of the dark side of go ruck though it sort of stole all the oxygen out

00:33:35.500 of the room a few years ago and we had a lot of them and ultimately it's it's based off of special

00:33:41.200 forces assessment and selection so it's not a team event it's not a fun event ever it's not sort of

00:33:47.580 designed to empower you except in so far as it will teach you a lot of humility and and that's

00:33:54.280 the greatest lesson that i learned from both completing the special forces qualification course

00:34:00.340 which was only the beginning of my real service and then serving was was humility and the guys that

00:34:07.200 you serve with they give it to you and the training you get it from the cadre who are in the training

00:34:11.620 but selection is is is i if there's a tougher endurance event in the world i've never seen it

00:34:16.480 yeah no it looks pretty brutal but besides these these other events you guys have branched out like

00:34:21.380 you have one event that i did a few weeks ago here in tulsa was called constellation and it was a lot

00:34:27.140 of fun okay if someone to sign up for that what would someone expect there and what's the goal of

00:34:31.360 constellation so we were just chatting before what did you describe it to your friends as i described it as

00:34:37.500 adult hide and seek in downtown tulsa while learning survival urban survival skills yeah so i i mean

00:34:44.360 that's about right look i mean at the foundation of what go rock events are and do is we have these

00:34:51.620 special forces cadre and the the depth of experience is enormous and so yes there's this this physical

00:35:00.620 event called the go rock challenge and we've got a pretty strong blueprint on that we know how to build

00:35:06.200 teams and and yet there's a lot more stuff that we can we can teach our cadre can teach and so

00:35:12.700 urban survival is certainly one of them and so what we see constellation as is a series that runs

00:35:20.760 parallel to the challenge right so it's authentic and all of the same ways that the challenge are it's

00:35:26.260 led by special forces guys and they teach you special forces lessons they're designed to empower

00:35:31.200 this isn't this isn't designed for you to become a spy or anything like that right it's designed

00:35:38.200 for you to show up and learn what to do in the time of crisis and more than anything what you'll learn

00:35:44.140 is that it's a mindset it's a mindset of being in special forces where i i'm not the best thing at

00:35:52.340 anything but i know i can figure it out and i know that when hell descends i know how to keep my calm

00:35:57.700 and do the right thing and so that's sort of the purpose of constellation and where that urban

00:36:03.940 survival side of go rock is going to go and so we also have you know expeditions that are out in the

00:36:09.420 out in the wilderness and you know basically there's lots of outdoor style companies it's just

00:36:14.580 our outdoor events are led by current and former special forces gods i mean boy scouts that also have

00:36:20.640 war stories which is pretty cool that was awesome i had a great time and uh for those i think it's a

00:36:25.760 great way if you're not ready to do a challenge event it's a great introduction to sort of the go

00:36:32.420 rock community and then from there yeah so the best part is about go rock is the people yeah you know

00:36:37.400 the community and so we want people to see that community and and constellation is certainly a new

00:36:42.580 way in yeah i mean that's let's talk about that i mean i feel like let's talk about like what your big

00:36:46.920 picture goals are with these events it's not just about selling bags and selling the go rock brand i mean

00:36:52.720 it seems like you guys actually have like a big picture goal like you want to change the the culture

00:36:58.880 in some way and you know what i when i the events that i've done i feel like one of the big lessons

00:37:03.720 that the the cadres are trying to pound into our heads is this idea of teamwork because i remember

00:37:10.040 you talk about that welcome party you know they always they always said like the welcome party will

00:37:15.180 last as long as you want or you need it to last like what does that mean and it was basically it was

00:37:19.500 like he would keep it going until he saw that we were working as a team and it always took like two

00:37:25.300 or three hours for people to kind of get that idea so i mean is that the like the biggest issue you see

00:37:31.460 when people do these events like they're they're thinking like an individual and they don't want to

00:37:34.620 think like a like a team member yeah i mean i think all of us do it right you know i mean we live our we

00:37:41.360 live our lives and you know we all have our iphones and our eye furniture and our eye houses and

00:37:48.000 everything you know we we have this cultural ability to be so so private and privacy is is

00:37:56.520 great right i'm all for you know the rights associated with that but the problem is is that

00:38:02.620 we're also human beings and evolution has raised us to be part of a of a community that's how that's

00:38:09.700 how we thrive is together and right now go rock is running counterculture to this idea of it's all

00:38:17.160 about me me me me me right so everyone sits and waits for you know when's the next iphone going to

00:38:23.020 come out because then i'll i'll be happy right i'll put my headphones in and i'll walk around

00:38:27.000 by myself and i'll listen to my music on my phone and see my world and you know it's all about me and

00:38:34.900 we're at our events and just in the way that we want to live our our lives is we want to be part of

00:38:41.020 something bigger than ourselves and so where i've seen that operate the best is is in the united states

00:38:48.440 army special forces i mean it is exactly not about you it is about your team and so we we bottle up

00:38:57.560 that little bit of magic that way of life and we bring that with us to our events and it colors the way

00:39:04.240 that we talk about what we do and how we do it and and certainly you know shapes our thinking and how

00:39:10.800 we should be leading events and teaching people that way of life right yeah i mean um the big take

00:39:16.980 i love that lesson when they finally we had to like during the the welcome party like the cadre just

00:39:22.480 finally had to tell us like you guys have to do this thing together like everything has to be in sync

00:39:27.540 if you don't do it in sync then we're going to keep doing this until you get it in sync and what's

00:39:31.880 amazing uh is that really breaks down the barriers like after that welcome party the rest of the night

00:39:37.220 people are looking out for each other they're they're uh they're humble they're no longer

00:39:43.220 thinking like a like an individual but rather they're thinking like a team player so like that

00:39:47.200 that welcome party really is sort of like that rite of passage into the go ruck community that breaks 0.91

00:39:51.760 down those those walls and makes you start thinking like you're part of a team yeah so the the go

00:39:57.740 ruck challenge it's it's an easier way to do this because pain is a very powerful motivator

00:40:03.580 right so once you show up to any school or to any job for that matter right you're playing by someone

00:40:10.140 else's rules now over time you can help evolve those rules maybe usually in military settings and stuff

00:40:16.660 you can't you're just playing by their rules and so at the go ruck challenge it's the cadre sets the

00:40:22.560 rules and so you have to play by those rules that's sort of the definition of it right and and so what

00:40:29.140 we're trying to show people is that it's not about how fast you can do this by yourself because we see

00:40:35.260 that a lot right someone will show up and they just think they show up full of they're just a little

00:40:40.700 cocky i'm gonna crush this and and it's about me a lot of people sign up to prove something of

00:40:45.500 themselves and they they learn a little something extra while they're there along this journey

00:40:49.880 after they eat their humble pie you know and they show up in their bark and orders at everyone

00:40:54.580 because they're doing the push-ups better the whatever bear crawls better and so your cadre

00:40:59.820 told you hey you have to do this together for whatever reason breaking down the barriers of our

00:41:05.960 lives it takes a little bit of time you know people are naturally don't just go up to each other and say

00:41:12.060 hey let's work together you have to build rapport that's a process takes time it takes trust and in this

00:41:17.940 case it's just highly accelerated because there's a motivator to to making sure that you work

00:41:24.720 together aka pain right yeah i love that but what lessons do you think on leadership do you think a man

00:41:31.940 could learn from taking part in a go rook challenge so you can't learn a lot from leadership in just books

00:41:40.320 you to learn is to do and when you're given an opportunity to lead you have to do it so we sort of break

00:41:48.540 down the the process into four steps like solving problems in life in general understand the problem

00:41:55.820 visualize a solution over communicate and then adapt to win and so if you apply these sort of steps to

00:42:03.740 any problem you'll know where you are in this sort of decision making process and it helps you be a

00:42:10.460 better leader so understand the problem a lot of times people hear what they want to hear not what's

00:42:15.140 actually being said and so they start going off in the wrong direction solving the wrong problem if you

00:42:20.540 will right after you have made sure that you brief your boss back what you thought you understood the

00:42:26.040 problem to be right then you say okay now you've got to visualize a solution right you say okay this is

00:42:32.680 how we're going to solve this sometimes it requires consensus other times it doesn't sometimes you got a

00:42:38.200 task not ask right over communicate your plan to your team and and by the way over communication is

00:42:46.680 literally impossible it's not possible to over communicate it's just life changes anything changes

00:42:53.560 you've got to communicate those changes to everyone there's nothing more boring than being sort of a

00:42:58.240 private in life or in the military and not knowing what's going on and you're just told to stand over

00:43:03.580 there and do nothing right that's that's not a fun place to be and so if you're in charge make sure

00:43:08.720 that people know what's going on and then adapt to win basically basically just means murphy's gonna

00:43:15.400 strike it's not if it's when and you have to then reassess where you are with your plan and your team

00:43:22.680 and so when you're in charge you're you have to if the whole plan changes you've got to go back and

00:43:28.860 understand the problem again visualize a solution over communicate and make sure that you have your

00:43:32.980 whole team on board with you and make sure that you're going the right direction but ultimately that's

00:43:37.260 sort of a system leadership is about doing you've got to do you've got to make decisions and then if

00:43:43.480 they're the wrong decisions you've got to fail fast you've got to eat some humble pie you've got to

00:43:47.160 correct it quickly and you've got to keep on going with a new better plan yeah what i love about the

00:43:51.820 challenges is that everyone pretty much everyone will have a chance to be a leader at some point in

00:43:56.900 the night where they'll have to lead some mission but then everyone will also have a turn being a

00:44:01.600 follower but i think that's an important part of learning how to be a leader is learning how to be

00:44:05.720 a good follower as well and it's amazing it's always it's amazing to see the i don't know like some

00:44:11.660 people are terrified of actually being a leader for like two hours during a go rec event but at the by

00:44:17.060 the end of it like you can see that confidence because they actually got to practice

00:44:20.660 that leadership theory you were talking about yeah we're really big on empowerment you know and

00:44:26.460 there's so many times in life where people are just too scared to take the first step and i know

00:44:31.260 because i've been there right like i'm the guy that that couldn't ask the love of his life to to go out

00:44:38.300 with him on a date for like a decade so i'm not sitting here just some barrel-chested freedom fighter

00:44:43.440 you know and it's like sometimes the first step's really hard and and being forced to being forced

00:44:51.620 to take that first step can be the best thing that ever happened to you yeah well i'm sure um you've

00:44:57.500 had a lot of stories because i think you and huckberry guys have done this thing where they have like a

00:45:02.180 battle story event where you guys get together and drink some beer and then share stories of you know

00:45:07.080 past go rec event glories i'm curious in your your time doing the challenges in these events

00:45:13.380 have there been any stories of people whose lives were transformed because of an event that really

00:45:18.540 stuck out to you and really i don't know like it sticks with you and you're like man this is why

00:45:22.680 we do it this is why we're doing this thing that we're doing yeah i i mean the most tangible story

00:45:28.660 i mean i i'm pretty accessible on facebook and so people reach out to me and stuff which

00:45:32.820 which i love frankly you know i love our community and our people um and one notable story was a guy

00:45:40.180 transitioning he had already transitioned out of the military and was just in a really dark dark place

00:45:46.700 and you know as he's recounting later he's like you know i was i was on the verge of killing myself

00:45:53.460 and i i just i needed something and for whatever reason the idea of showing up and suffering with

00:46:00.940 other people like i used to do in the military at a go ruck challenge it spoke to me and instead of

00:46:06.880 killing myself i showed up at the go ruck challenge and i became part of this awesome community and it

00:46:12.240 sort of it wasn't an overnight fix for me so i just got goosebumps it wasn't an overnight fix for me

00:46:18.360 but you know it it brought me back to the kind of person that i wanted to be again yeah i love that

00:46:24.020 story that's an awesome do you have a lot of former um military guys doing go ruck

00:46:28.360 so yeah we do short the short answer is yes the the longer answer is a lot of times people will

00:46:35.480 see it and they'll say no thanks i'm good i've done that right but as as we who have been in sort of get

00:46:43.760 more removed from it you realize that the best part about the army was also the people right the people

00:46:49.660 that you got to serve with and beside and that's what go ruck sort of replicates so it fills a lot of

00:46:54.500 voids in in people's lives like that and i think for the better yeah i i know in my experience you

00:47:00.100 know i'm not i'd never served in the military but i feel like the the challenges um have been a way

00:47:05.660 for me to rub shoulders with veterans um and it's a great way for civilians and veterans to rub shoulders

00:47:11.300 and do something together and for civilians to get an insight into what you know veterans did

00:47:17.700 instead of the whole you know thank you for your service like you actually get to do something

00:47:21.380 with these guys and i think the veterans like that too because you know they're just doing

00:47:26.300 something they're not they're like you know i feel like sometimes they feel awkward being told

00:47:29.640 thank you for your service kind of be put on a pedestal sometimes they just want to like

00:47:32.740 live their life and do something with just like a normal human being so that's been i feel like a

00:47:37.980 been a benefit to me personally doing the events yeah that's a really good that's a really good and

00:47:43.740 fair assessment of it i mean for us building a bridge between the military and the civilian

00:47:47.700 worlds is is a really important and noble calling and so however many years after the wars and and

00:47:55.300 all of the sort of saturation visual that we've been given from those wars you know it's it's it's

00:48:03.460 become too easy for the talking heads out there to talk about how there's such a huge gap between

00:48:09.700 the military and the civilian worlds and such a small percentage of america actually serves we forget how

00:48:15.860 far we've come from vietnam we forget just we forget about the good things because they're not the

00:48:20.860 right clickbait or whatever right and so what we see through go rock events is a lot of people

00:48:25.780 who for time or circumstance didn't serve in the military but are leading very good and noble lives

00:48:33.500 in their communities making the world a better place in in their way as well and this is just a place

00:48:39.660 where for me personally i thought that awesome i thought that special forces kind of had a monopoly

00:48:47.020 on awesome right when i was in and it's kind of the mindset that you have to have and however when i got

00:48:53.560 out and i was exposed to the community that became the go rock community it's there's a lot of people

00:49:00.060 out there that are just really good people and they want to do really good stuff and they want to serve

00:49:04.420 something higher than themselves and i've met a lot of them and so it is it's fun to just be out there

00:49:09.660 and it doesn't matter if you're black white young old male female gay straight military civilian whatever

00:49:15.580 you're just out there doing work together and i think that that's the surest way to break down any

00:49:20.660 barrier i love that well jason where can people go to learn more about uh the events and the challenges

00:49:25.980 you guys do so go rock.com has the whole go rock universe on it gear events apparel you name it

00:49:32.940 awesome well jason mccarthy thank you so much for your time it's been an absolute pleasure

00:49:36.520 thanks for having me brad it's awesome my guest today was jason mccarthy he is the founder and ceo

00:49:41.260 of go rock you can find more information about go rock and their events at go rock.com also check

00:49:46.140 out our show notes at aom.is slash go rock where you can find links to resources where you can delve

00:49:50.120 deeper in this topic you'll find some links about my experience with go rock and how i trained for

00:49:54.380 check that out there go rock at aom.is slash go rock

00:49:57.860 well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice

00:50:14.280 make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com if you enjoy the

00:50:18.080 show if you've gotten something out of it i'd appreciate it if you take a minute or two to

00:50:20.680 write us review on itunes for stitcher really helps us out a lot as always thank you for your

00:50:24.620 continued support and until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay manly

00:50:50.680 and can walk a little bit you can walk a little bitAmbellatri to the art of manly options 0.98

00:50:55.020 so you can find some pictures because of you as you can know it went through this

00:50:56.640 video just kind of hopped and doc

The Art of Manliness - June 20, 2017

#314： Building Better Citizens Through Rucking

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