The Art of Manliness - #315： The Power of Small Experiments to Supercharge Your Success

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:17.940 Well, starting and running a successful business requires you to constantly experiment with

00:00:21.700 ideas and adapt on the fly. My guest today has become a master at testing ideas quickly

00:00:26.200 in his entrepreneurial ventures, which has allowed him to start several million dollar businesses.

00:00:30.480 He's taken that test and adapt philosophy and also applied it to his life, his personal

00:00:33.960 life to become physically stronger, more resilient and more productive. His name is Noah Kagan.

00:00:38.400 He's the CEO of AppSumo and he shares his music on business at his blog, OKDork.com. That's

00:00:43.880 right, OKDork.com. Today on the show, Noah shares what it was like getting fired from Facebook

00:00:48.680 right before it went public and losing out on a $185 million payday and how he bounced

00:00:53.780 back from that below. He then digs into the process he goes through in testing if a business

00:00:57.700 idea is viable and how he used that process to start several successful ventures. Noah

00:01:02.140 then shares the difference between founding a business and manage a business and why managers

00:01:05.600 get the short shrift in today's startup focused world. And we end our conversation by talking

00:01:09.440 about how you can run a personal experiment in your life to create a better and more satisfying

00:01:14.580 life and how to run a diagnostic on yourself just as you would with your car. Lots of actionable

00:01:19.840 advice in this episode. After it's over, check out the show notes at aom.is slash

00:01:23.540 Kagan, where you can find links to resources, where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:01:30.260 All right, Noah Kagan, welcome to the show.

00:01:33.480 Brad McKay, what up, dog?

00:01:34.540 How's it going? Well, Noah, I've been a big fan of your work. I've used your service AppSumo. I get

00:01:41.020 your emails and I've gotten some really cool things from that. You're an interesting guy because you

00:01:46.140 wear a lot of different hats, but you primarily made your way in life as an entrepreneur, business

00:01:51.340 owner. So I want to talk a little bit about that, but then we're also talking about some of the other

00:01:54.940 things you've been doing with your life. But before we get to that, tell us a little bit about your

00:02:00.200 background because it is a pretty interesting one. It's varied.

00:02:03.520 Yeah. Born and raised in San Jose, California, representing the 408. I had a pretty traditional, 0.79

00:02:09.800 I'd say, beginning. I did the college path, which I've kind of re-evaluated now. And then after that,

00:02:15.300 I went and worked at Intel. So I was pretty much a corporate monkey. I'm single, 35, still haven't

00:02:20.920 had kids or gotten married yet. And then professionally, I kind of went through a startup

00:02:25.600 path where I was one of the early people at Facebook and Mint.com. And then I kind of had

00:02:29.480 a quarter-life crisis and was like, I want to go work in Argentina or Thailand. And I started

00:02:34.600 a Facebook games company. Those annoying games that spanned everyone. And that kind of led me on

00:02:39.540 this journey, living there, living in Europe, getting sued by large companies, getting banned

00:02:44.960 by Facebook, and ending up now in Austin, Texas. I've been here about seven years running

00:02:49.920 Sumo.com and AppSumo.com, which is basically where, the short of it is, we help the underdogs.

00:02:55.920 So we help the little guys or people with websites do better.

00:03:00.000 So you worked for Facebook and then got banned by Facebook with your other business.

00:03:04.340 Yeah, I've had not a great time with them. Yeah, when I was working there, after about

00:03:10.760 nine months, I got fired. And it's one of these things in retrospect, I think when you get fired,

00:03:15.240 it's a great thing to get fired. It's such a good thing, because you know what that feels like.

00:03:19.660 And it's a really great chance to grow. And at that time, it sucked though, man. Facebook was my

00:03:24.420 identity. And I think that was kind of an interesting moment where I was like, oh, wow, what happens when

00:03:29.240 your identity gets removed or someone else has kind of control or impact over your identity? 0.81

00:03:33.260 And that kind of gives you that time to be like, well, shit, I need to figure out who I am. 0.93

00:03:38.020 Because who I was was Facebook. And so, yeah, that was rough. That was a really rough period. 0.98

00:03:43.640 And I mean, you got, you fired from them, I think shortly after, I think if I remember correctly,

00:03:47.980 they went public and you missed out on the big IPO. Is that right?

00:03:53.040 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, dude, what's crazy is even now, I still see how rich they are.

00:03:58.720 Like Dustin, these guys I worked with are multi-billionaires. One of the guys is literally

00:04:02.340 in Austin where I lived building a hotel. Like one of the guys, another guy was complaining

00:04:07.780 about how his McLaren rims almost got stolen. And I think what's interesting about money is

00:04:14.140 people think once you get this money, it'll make your life happier. I think that's a big

00:04:17.140 misconception, especially now as I've started businesses and made some money. It doesn't

00:04:21.940 really change who you're going to be or who you actually are right now. And people kind of

00:04:26.580 believe it will. And so I spent a lot of time being like, well, what do I really want to buy?

00:04:30.480 And is there anything I really need with money? And how do I want money to interact

00:04:33.580 with my life? Because I think there was two parts of it. There was working on something

00:04:36.460 like Facebook, which I liked working on because I thought it impacted people positively. I

00:04:39.780 actually don't think there is positive anymore. But secondly, I did think that that was one

00:04:43.640 part. And the second part was I'm making money and I want to make a lot of money. And so I

00:04:46.980 just had to evaluate how do I work, go back and work on something I think is a positive

00:04:50.200 impact. And then secondly, what do I really need money for and how much do I want? I actually

00:04:55.060 had a funny thing lately. I bought a really expensive thing. Like, so let's say I made a bunch

00:04:58.480 of money. I went and bought a fancy car, a Jaguar. And I was actually miserable. Like

00:05:03.380 I bought this fancy car that you'd imagine, oh, he's got a cool car. He must be happier

00:05:06.860 now. And I was unhappy the first day I got it. And the happiest day was when I sold it.

00:05:10.820 And I just bought a 2004 Miata and I'm ecstatic.

00:05:16.760 So it was interesting to kind of reflect on like, you know, what really matters to you and

00:05:21.260 then spend money and your time on those things.

00:05:23.400 So would you say that in the beginning of your career, you were chasing dollars more than

00:05:28.420 anything? Or was it, I mean, what were you going after early on in your career?

00:05:33.360 That's interesting. I've never thought about that. I've kind of followed a little bit of

00:05:36.660 a mantra of just have fun. And I know that might seem too simple for a lot of people, but that's

00:05:40.480 kind of worked well for me. With Facebook in the early days, yeah, I would say it was a little

00:05:45.120 bit more opportunistic. And I think your 20s are your time where you literally, you're just,

00:05:49.760 you frankly, 20 should just be working hard. That's all you should do in your 20s. And then

00:05:53.600 when you get to your 30s, you're like, holy crap, like, let me work smart now. And maybe people in

00:05:58.200 their 20s will figure that out. But yeah, my 20s, I would say I worked at Intel because I wanted to,

00:06:02.400 I always wanted to run my own business. And I knew that was my stepping stone where Intel would be

00:06:05.480 my venture capitalists, meaning that like, I could have a nine to five at that five, like my brain is

00:06:09.900 mine again. Frankly, my brain was mine the whole time. I didn't really do much work there.

00:06:13.800 But it gave me a chance at five o'clock and in the mornings and on weekends, I could do whatever I

00:06:17.940 wanted. So I was already always starting my own businesses. And then Facebook, it was more like,

00:06:22.160 I just applied on a fluke. And I kind of was like, well, I like the product. I want to work on products

00:06:26.480 I like. A lot of people, if they're like, well, what should I work on? I'm like, just go look on

00:06:29.400 your phone or look on the web or look at restaurants or services and go work for one of them. And so I

00:06:33.980 did that. And after Facebook, though, and Mint, I'd say I was a little more opportunistic where I was

00:06:39.720 like, well, how can I make more money? And those have always backfired on me personally. And for some

00:06:44.220 people maybe do it and sell credit cards or whatever you do and go for it. But I just kind

00:06:48.440 of found that didn't really give me a lot of satisfaction. And I didn't find it super

00:06:51.660 sustainable. Even as I made money, I was like, this just doesn't fulfill me even though I'm

00:06:56.220 making money.

00:06:57.540 Yeah. I think that's what a lot of people figure out. So there's a lot of things. You said a lot

00:07:01.960 of things that have stuck out to me. You mentioned that you thought Facebook was a good service in

00:07:06.420 the beginning, but doesn't have anything positive anymore. What do you think's changed? And why do you

00:07:10.340 feel that way?

00:07:11.420 Yeah. I've thought about this a lot. I think about what are the company's incentives,

00:07:15.740 right? And what are my incentives and are they aligned? And Facebook is not. So Facebook is

00:07:20.680 designated. They literally have a thousand people and their jobs are to keep your attention in Facebook

00:07:26.360 world. And it's addicting. And why is it addicting? Because they're engineering it. And do I think

00:07:31.980 it's making life better at this point? I don't think so. I think the original premise of being able to

00:07:36.220 connect with maybe like Brett, who I don't get to talk to as often, was helpful. But now

00:07:39.900 they've engineered a system where news and people I don't care about and photos I don't care about

00:07:44.840 and all these kind of mechanisms to just keep me scrolling, I don't think make my life better.

00:07:49.620 And so I've been on a fight to actually remove Facebook from my phone. I use a Chrome extension

00:07:54.160 called News Feed Eradicator and really look at Facebook as a business tool. And then I have a

00:07:59.080 small network of friends that, frankly, either with text or phone calls or email or in person,

00:08:03.480 I find myself more present. And I think it's like they're not encouraging like, hey, get offline,

00:08:08.400 go actually meet people and enjoy people. It's like at dinner. Now family dinners are family

00:08:13.120 phone dinners. And I think that's disgusting. Like I was last night, I was out at a nice restaurant

00:08:18.140 and the whole family doesn't talk. They're on their phone scrolling. And I'm just like,

00:08:22.880 this is not the future I want to help encourage.

00:08:25.340 Right. Yeah. And they just came out, I guess, yesterday they had their F8 thing. They're a big

00:08:29.280 conference. Like now they're going to have like virtual reality Facebook.

00:08:31.980 I think some of the things.

00:08:33.500 Augmented reality.

00:08:34.060 That could be cool.

00:08:34.800 Facebook.

00:08:35.560 You think so?

00:08:36.340 I think there's some, I think there could be positive things they can do. I just think

00:08:39.020 it's a lot of responsibility when you have a billion people's attention, like how you

00:08:42.280 choose to impact that.

00:08:43.580 Right. Right. Yeah. I've, I haven't really been on Facebook much personally. I use it

00:08:48.880 as a business. Yeah. I just use it as a business tool primarily.

00:08:51.580 Yeah. I mean, they're, they're encouraged to get you to stick around and just stare at

00:08:54.840 their stuff as long as possible. That's why I like the News Feed Eradicator. That's like

00:08:58.260 one thing I did, Brett, that, that really changed the game for me is I removed all social apps

00:09:01.920 from my phone and I turn off all notifications on my phone. And it's just like, I have Snapchat

00:09:08.300 on because I spend like a minute a day on it and it don't, it's not addicting because

00:09:11.180 there's only, literally I only get a minute because there's not much more to do. And I'm

00:09:14.120 just like, Oh my God, I have all this time back that isn't like wasteful or mindless

00:09:18.120 time.

00:09:18.540 Yeah.

00:09:19.200 And I was like, Oh cool. What can I actually use? That'd be actually more interesting or more

00:09:22.640 fulfilling to my brain. So like, is there learning? Are there actual real relationships?

00:09:27.000 Are there podcasts or books or whatever it is? And you get a lot of time back. Even

00:09:30.780 15 minutes a day is about a week after a year. So 15 minutes a day of wasting on Facebook.

00:09:35.140 If you add that up after a year, it's a, it's a week of life that you've just given up for

00:09:38.580 nothing.

00:09:38.960 Yeah. And I don't, I don't even, I think quitting social media is not even the time aspect.

00:09:42.260 Like when you're actually doing the activity, it's like the mental bandwidth because you're,

00:09:46.200 you're often still thinking about something that you saw on Facebook that pissed you off

00:09:51.320 like an hour later. Right. And it's just.

00:09:53.960 Dude, that's so true. I remember, I remember the moment it was,

00:09:56.800 in January where I just deleted everything. I woke up, I went to my phone, I'm scrolling.

00:10:01.420 And then after the 15 minutes, I was like, is my life better or worse or the same after this?

00:10:06.080 And I was like, I would say it's kind of like worse to the same. And I was like, well,

00:10:09.540 that's, it sounds like an empty calorie. So it's like in other parts of my life,

00:10:14.420 I wouldn't waste 15 minutes and not expect something back from it. So gave it up. And I'm

00:10:19.280 just like, I don't, you forget about it. You're like, Oh wow. Like,

00:10:21.580 why am I not wasting that much time anymore on those things?

00:10:24.740 Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, yeah. I don't have Twitter on my phone. Don't have Facebook on my

00:10:29.440 phone. I really don't have a personal Facebook account. Uh, and my life is better. And I feel

00:10:33.540 like when I'm also, sometimes I'll slip in where I'll start do a lot of browsing on my browser.

00:10:37.800 Yeah. On Twitter and Facebook that can been, but I've noticed when I've put in blocks and

00:10:42.280 constraints, I'm just a lot happier whenever I do those things. So dude, I use this a Chrome

00:10:47.640 extension and I probably, probably have it for Firefox. And I just started using this one called

00:10:51.040 block site. So I have a newsfeed eradicator, which I love, but block sites, a new one. And it basically

00:10:55.780 you tell it your sites that you want to block and what times. So I block like Reddit, Twitter,

00:11:00.300 YouTube, Facebook from, from the morning until 12. And what actually is interesting besides it,

00:11:05.820 you know, I thought when I heard people tell me about using this stuff, I was like,

00:11:08.480 Oh my God, do you just not have no self-control? And I thought that was kind of a weakness,

00:11:12.080 but it's like, no, it actually helps me. But what was more interesting for me is how much

00:11:17.140 mindlessly I go to those websites. That's been actually the really surprising thing. I'm like,

00:11:21.440 it'll be like, you've gone five times to Facebook this morning. And I'm like, Oh my God,

00:11:24.660 I don't even realize I'm going or if you Twitter or YouTube, whatever it is, you click a link to

00:11:28.520 some from somewhere else. And, uh, it's just a good, like, okay, cool. Take a moment to stop and think

00:11:32.980 about it before that's actually something I want to be doing.

00:11:35.820 Right. Yeah. My wife and I call that mindless, you know, the, the sequence of websites you visit,

00:11:40.540 right. Mindlessly. We call it the wheel. Totally. The wheel. Yes. What are you doing?

00:11:44.800 Sometimes we'll get catchy. What are you doing right now? You spinning the wheel?

00:11:47.880 I'm spinning the wheel. Shame. We always say that shamelessly, you know, with, with, with shame.

00:11:51.900 Dude, have you ever read the book mindless eating, by the way?

00:11:54.240 I have not, but I I've heard of the, heard of it. If you get it, if you're in, if anyone wants to like

00:11:59.520 improve their health and not want to diet, like go read mindless eating. It's basically the same

00:12:03.000 concept with food. It's like all these, it's like very tactical, interesting strategies about how,

00:12:07.460 like when you eat chips, you just like pull them out. If you just eat them out of the bag,

00:12:10.720 you'll eat more than if you just take them out of the bag, put them on a plate and eat it off the

00:12:13.740 plate. Yeah. Yeah. You don't, don't do that. Um, man, we're so discouraging.

00:12:20.060 I am so discouraging. I will take credit. Well, let me, let's talk more about your,

00:12:25.640 your business and how you've decided. So you've started lots of businesses in your, I mean,

00:12:29.380 you're only 35 and you've started several businesses. I'm curious, have there like,

00:12:33.480 is there a guiding principle? I guess you mentioned your guiding principles. Like if

00:12:36.020 something it's fun, you enjoy doing it, you're going to start a business there. So is your kind

00:12:40.680 of mantra, follow your passion, or do you actually also look for needs in the market and try to fill them?

00:12:46.540 Because, you know, I hear that you hear the vice, you know, follow your passion, but like,

00:12:50.240 you know, there's not a market for a professional pancake eater. Um, you're not going to make any

00:12:55.840 money. So how do you navigate, you know, both finding something that you enjoy doing that is

00:13:01.280 also serving a need in the market? Yeah, man. Uh, you know, I was at the DMV yesterday and the lady, 0.97

00:13:08.100 it was like, I was getting a custom license plate, uh, sumo.com. And she's like, Oh, I can't wait to get

00:13:13.360 off work. And I was like, why? She's like, Oh, it's just a job. And I was like, well, what would

00:13:17.940 make you look forward to work? She's like, well, this is not my career. This is just my job. And

00:13:21.560 that really resonated with me. And I think that's one of my missions here on this planet is like,

00:13:26.260 I love when people love their work. And I think it comes from my mom hating her, her, her work being 0.98

00:13:30.800 a nurse. She always complained about being a nurse. And I think it kind of leads to me for others,

00:13:36.120 but also for myself that my guiding principle is just like find work that I want to work on and is

00:13:40.600 interesting for me and problems that are interesting for me to solve. Either someone else has already

00:13:44.720 figured it out. So I joined them like Facebook and minted, or I create it myself like app sumo and

00:13:49.140 sumo, or like even my, like my podcast or my blog. Like I like okaydork.com. I do it for free because

00:13:54.600 that's just what I'm interested in. So yeah, I'm, I guess I'd be in the camp of, I don't know about

00:13:58.620 passion. I don't, I think passion can fade, right? It's like when you meet some new girl, you're like,

00:14:03.600 Oh, this is so exciting. Then after a month, you're like, Oh, I hate her toenails. Uh, but it's like, 0.96

00:14:07.840 find something that you can sustainably be interested in and solve yourself. And I think

00:14:11.980 your second part is actually really key, which is like, you do have to validate that there's a

00:14:16.940 market for it. I think the problem that most people make with that though, is that they're

00:14:20.720 not willing to actually sustain or persist through discomfort for a long period of time. Meaning that

00:14:26.100 like, yes, now with sumo group or company that we run app sumo and sumo through, like it makes an

00:14:30.780 eight figure business and that's, it's very healthy. That's great. It's bootstrapped, but that's also

00:14:34.480 taken seven years. And I think when I've heard a lot of people and a lot of people come to me for

00:14:38.660 how to start a business, cause I've done it a number of times, they're not willing to actually

00:14:42.460 put in seven years of work or even a year, like go put in one year of hard work towards any of your

00:14:47.200 ideas. And I promise you'll be successful to some degree, or you'll be further ahead than you were

00:14:51.320 before. Uh, but most people do it for a week to an idea that they like, and they're like, it didn't

00:14:55.880 work. And I'm like, okay, it's a week. Let's go another week and have an accountability buddy.

00:15:00.500 And that'll even help you more. But the point is, is that find something you're interested in.

00:15:04.480 And what I encourage people is like, how do you find a customer or validate that there's a business

00:15:08.460 for it? So you get some indication of that right away, right? Like how do you find, and I always

00:15:13.220 encourage, like if you're trying to think of a business idea, see if you can find three customers

00:15:16.000 in 48 hours and don't spend any money. And the reason I've kind of, kind of followed this principle

00:15:21.220 as I've done businesses and they seem to be working is that I've spent a lot, I've done the opposite

00:15:25.700 where I've spent a lot of time and a lot of money on an idea that never worked. And it's like, all

00:15:31.740 right, well, if I have a business idea, let me just find something that I'm curious about. Let me see

00:15:35.460 if I can find a customer. And if there is, then let me go explore that a lot deeper. And so how do

00:15:39.440 you go about finding, like testing that, whether there's a customer, you just like, you put an ad

00:15:42.760 on Craigslist. What do you do to validate that quickly? Yeah. So I'm going to give for any of your

00:15:49.080 listeners, and here's a common thing. I'll give you two examples. A common thing people say is like,

00:15:54.040 oh, I don't have any ideas. I got nothing. Here's the stupidest idea that literally everyone

00:15:58.780 can do. And they could all do it within the next hour while they're listening to the show. They 1.00

00:16:02.200 can even do it on their phone. All you have to do is very, very simple. Go to your house,

00:16:07.420 grab all your junk and put it on eBay. And that is your first business. And I think that's one of 0.85

00:16:13.100 these businesses that I'm like, you could start that today. And then what happens though, is that

00:16:16.560 most businesses evolve. Like what you started in the beginning of art of manliness is not what you're

00:16:21.480 doing now. Like you're still doing the blogging. The foundation is there, but like,

00:16:24.040 you have strenuous life and you have a store and you have like a YouTube channel. You pause on that

00:16:29.320 and then you got a podcast. Like you didn't start with all that. You evolved. Right. And I think

00:16:32.800 people don't realize that businesses evolve. Like I started AppSumo as a deal site for a daily deals

00:16:38.380 bundle site for software. And now we have marketing tools that grow people's email lists with sumo.com.

00:16:44.060 And I'm actually spending my whole day creating content, right? With OKDork or the podcast or YouTube.

00:16:49.460 That's not what I started in the beginning, but people kind of psych themselves out. So the point is

00:16:53.160 with the eBay thing, go list stuff on eBay, Craigslist, Amazon. And then you'll actually

00:16:57.880 be like, Oh my God, there's a market for ukuleles. And then the second idea, second thing you could do

00:17:02.180 with that is like, just go right now on your phone, text your friends, be like, Hey man,

00:17:05.880 or Hey girl, can you put a pile of all the things you don't want in your house somewhere? Just put it

00:17:10.300 in a corner and I'll come over, grab everything and sell it for them. And literally you could start this

00:17:13.920 business today. And cause I've been doing that. I've been like, I found a guy. I was like,

00:17:17.020 can you just take all my stuff, sell it and give me whatever you want? And it's a way to kind of just

00:17:20.940 get momentum going. And that's what I find in business that people want. Another example

00:17:24.760 that I've done recently, I started a thing called Sumo Gum. So I'm a big gum chewer and I was at a

00:17:32.100 store looking for new Trident Layers flavors. I don't know if, are you a gum chewer, Brett?

00:17:35.700 I am a gum chewer. Yeah.

00:17:37.580 I don't have, I don't have a preference. It's just whatever.

00:17:40.240 Oh, really?

00:17:41.440 Yeah.

00:17:42.080 Dude, go Trident Layers, man.

00:17:43.320 I don't like Fruit Stripe. I mean, it's like, I mean, if someone offered me, I won't do that,

00:17:47.240 but anything else is Fruit Stripe, dude. Right. So I was in the store and there was no new flavors.

00:17:52.720 They don't innovate in the gum category. And I was like, man, I really want new flavors.

00:17:56.640 And I think if people, if here's the easiest way to start a business, just notice what you complain

00:18:00.260 about during your day and just solve that. And no matter what, you'll have one happy customer.

00:18:05.460 And for me, it was gum. So I was like, you know, I'd like to get more gum flavors. So I was like,

00:18:11.100 what would be a cool flavor for me? And the flavor I thought of was caffeinated coffee gum.

00:18:15.580 I drink coffee and it'd be cool to have caffeine in a gum. And so I hit up a few people. And so

00:18:21.820 I thought it was an interesting idea. I hit up a few people and, and I was kind of doing it as

00:18:27.040 like a good reminder to sharpen my saw and stay fresh with like how to start businesses. Cause

00:18:30.980 I think as we get older, we get a little of it's less naive or less fresh. And so I like to kind of

00:18:36.980 refresh myself once in a while. And so I hit up a few people, as I was mentioning earlier,

00:18:41.280 I hit up a few people and said, Hey, will you give me $10 for caffeinated coffee gum?

00:18:44.940 And then they did. So I was like, all right, cool. I know people will want it. Now let me go

00:18:49.020 make it for them. And so I ended up hiring a friend who is a good cook. I said, Hey,

00:18:53.380 can you just figure out how to make this? And she was really creative. Actually, what she did is

00:18:56.880 she went on Amazon and bought a gum kit from Glee gum. I think it's like 20 bucks or something like

00:19:01.800 that. And it's like how to make gum kit with all the ingredients. And so she bought that coffee,

00:19:06.920 grounded coffee and caffeine powder, all off Amazon, mixed it together, wrapped it in parchment

00:19:11.160 paper and gave me back like Ziploc bags of coffee gum. And that was kind of the beginning.

00:19:16.240 And so it's something that I'm not as interested. I'm not interested in pursuing is like, this is

00:19:20.100 where I want to spend the next year on. But it was a good reminder of like, all right, here are the

00:19:24.100 fundamentals that work in starting a business. And the beauty, Brett, I think for people who are

00:19:27.520 interested in starting a business is that if it did not work, if no one wanted it, that's amazing

00:19:31.560 because I didn't have to spend six months making a gum product to then find out that no one wants it.

00:19:36.200 Right. So you just, I did something really fast, failed fast and no harm, no foul.

00:19:41.380 Yeah. I mean, that, I think that's the point of it is that most people, it's easier to play

00:19:45.120 business than actually run a business and do the hard part of business. Like we started this course,

00:19:50.240 everyone kept asking me how I, how I started these companies. And I was like, well, I'll put it in a

00:19:53.500 course. And I, and I sold the course and no one bought it. And I was like, I guess you guys don't

00:20:00.040 really want it. But what they wanted was they were afraid of asking for things. They were actually

00:20:04.920 afraid more than even like the getting started part was just them being so afraid of rejection.

00:20:08.900 And I'm still afraid of rejection. I'm not a superhuman. I'm, I'm scared. And so I have to put

00:20:12.660 myself in discomfort to keep practicing getting over it like a muscle, like a gym. And so in the

00:20:18.000 course, we actually came up with a bunch of challenges for people to get over asking for

00:20:21.740 things. Uh, so the most famous one that, that seems to be always popular is called the coffee

00:20:25.640 challenge. I don't know. Are you familiar with that? I'm not familiar with the coffee challenge.

00:20:29.340 Hit me with it. Dude, this is game changing. And if you do it, like I, I think you should do it.

00:20:34.800 If you try it this week, you'll learn a lot of, you'll learn more about yourself through this than

00:20:38.500 anything else you've done this week. I promise you that for you, Brett, or for anyone else who's

00:20:42.140 done it is that next time you go to get coffee and I encourage you to go to Starbucks. And if you

00:20:47.360 don't drink coffee, next time you go anywhere to buy something, you ask for 10% off and they're

00:20:52.680 going to look at you and be like, why? And you'll just be like, just cause. And the whole point,

00:20:56.800 and then you may get it. You may not. The point is not about getting the discount.

00:20:59.680 The point is about potentially getting rejected, realizing you're okay and moving forward in

00:21:06.000 business. The fundamentals of business is fundamentally, I have this thing I want to

00:21:09.700 give you, or I want to sell you, you exchange your money for it. And what you're, what you're

00:21:14.540 literally doing is asking. You're asking for something in exchange for something else.

00:21:18.740 And the more that you can get comfortable with that, if someone rejects, rejects it, it's not

00:21:22.660 rejecting you. It's just rejecting what you're offering. You're like, Oh, okay, cool. Let me go ask the

00:21:26.140 next person and let me learn from that experience versus most people don't even want to get to that

00:21:30.260 point. So I found the coffee challenges. A lot of people have a breakthrough once they've done it

00:21:34.000 because they're like, Oh man, like I got rejected. I'm still okay. Now let me go apply this in bigger

00:21:38.880 concepts in my life, business or in personal. That's awesome. And then sometimes you will get

00:21:42.660 the 10% discount. Yeah, I still do it. Like I was talking to this crazy rich guy who runs a restaurant

00:21:47.800 and he's, he told me he asked for a discount. I'm like, dude, you're rich. You're so rich. Why'd you ask 0.94

00:21:52.980 for a discount? He's like, that's why I'm rich. And yeah, it's a good, it's a good lesson. It's

00:21:59.180 been, I, I still do it and I still try to even put myself in uncomfortable things to be able to

00:22:03.880 overcome them. And like, you know, you kind of practice things as a muscle. It makes them easier

00:22:06.760 to do. Right. And I think it's also, it's, it's good to, you know, being on the other side of that

00:22:12.840 ask. Right. So I think sometimes people get uncomfortable. It's like, what are you doing? Like,

00:22:17.280 what do you mean you want that? And they get all upset about it. But like part of business is people

00:22:21.440 are going to ask you for things you might not be comfortable with and you have to learn how to say

00:22:26.980 no and not get personal about it, not get huffy about it. Just keep it, keep it business-like.

00:22:34.340 I think that's a great point. You know, it's interesting. I, I thought about that last night

00:22:37.920 because someone wanted to hang out and I said no. And it's not that I'm better or greater than anyone.

00:22:44.040 It had nothing to do with that, but I don't think we practice saying no to things. And that enabled,

00:22:48.380 same with the social media stuff. Like having less of that enables me to have more of what I want

00:22:52.600 and saying no to people that I don't really want to hang out enables me to spend even more time alone

00:22:56.940 or more time with the people that I really get a lot out of. Right. That's a great point.

00:23:01.500 Got to learn how to say no. Well, let's talk about these. You've started a lot of businesses

00:23:05.640 and I, and I think online, you probably see it too. There is this, I would say a cult of the startup

00:23:12.020 founder, right? We admire these guys. We admire these young guys who start businesses and then sell them off

00:23:17.980 quickly so they can move on and, and start another business. But you've stuck around with AppSumo

00:23:23.680 for a while. Would you say seven years? Yeah. Yeah. It's my longest relationship.

00:23:27.380 Right. So I mean, how is, I'm curious as someone who's, who's started a lot of businesses,

00:23:31.400 some of them failed, some of them, I don't know what else you've done with them, maybe sold them

00:23:35.620 or moved on, but how is maintaining a business different from starting one? I mean, what's been

00:23:40.820 the thing that you've noticed? Yeah. I think everyone should try to find problems or businesses

00:23:46.200 that they could work on for the rest of their life or fundamental problems that they're like,

00:23:49.780 I'm just interested in this and I want to work on these things. And for me, like just take six

00:23:54.540 months and reflect what you've done in the six months that you would either do for free or that

00:23:57.540 you've really liked, and then figure out how you can do more of that. And for me, when I come down

00:24:01.480 to it, Brett, it's like, I love promoting things. I love promoting people or products or services that

00:24:07.380 I just think are amazing. And that's kind of what our businesses have always been about.

00:24:10.200 For me with, in terms of people, like, I think there's glamour. It's like, oh, they started this

00:24:14.840 company and sold it for a billion. And I've seen a lot of, especially these people that made a lot

00:24:18.200 of money at Facebook. Once you get all that money and you're now having it, what do you do all day?

00:24:22.780 And a lot of them, I could tell are restless and they're like, oh, I guess I'll do a charity or

00:24:26.880 something like that. And so I think there's fine things that you're like, there's just, it never ends

00:24:31.620 because you want to keep working on it. So for me, what I've actually had to embrace, there's been a few

00:24:36.920 changes over the past seven years. So one, we have actually changed the business every 18 months,

00:24:41.720 which I don't think has been healthy, meaning that we've evolved, right? We've added new pieces to it.

00:24:45.940 And I think in business, it's easiest to just serve the same customers versus always trying to find the

00:24:49.280 next one. It's like a drug addict. Like just instead of trying to find new things, just like enjoy what

00:24:53.260 you already have, enjoy it more. And same with customers, enjoy it more. What's been like the

00:24:57.480 biggest breakthrough, I'd say is two things. One, actually in the past two months, I've actually

00:25:02.640 removed myself from the day-to-day operation. And what that came from was that

00:25:06.840 I stopped apologizing for who I am and for who I want to be. And what that means is that

00:25:11.600 I love starting companies. I love marketing. I love promoting as we were, as I was mentioning

00:25:16.060 earlier. And as a company grows, there's, there's less of that, or it's harder for me to find my

00:25:21.340 place in that. And so it got, it got challenging, right? And I don't want to just abandon the company

00:25:26.960 or the people I get to work with, which I like, or the customers. So what I've done is like, I focused

00:25:31.040 on my sweet spot. And I think more people need to think of their businesses that way. Is that what,

00:25:35.060 where, and everyone has a sweet spot, everyone out there, even the lazy person, right? Or even the

00:25:39.060 person who's like, I got no skills. Like that's your skill that you have none that you can't learn

00:25:42.420 anything. So what I did is like, I was like, well, how do I hire people that actually their sweet spot

00:25:49.920 is sustaining something or maintaining something? And they love doing that and let them do that.

00:25:55.500 And then let me go figure out new marketing stuff or start new kind of labs for Sumo. And that's been

00:26:01.080 kind of a transition in the past four or five months. And it's been amazing. And I find that

00:26:05.800 sustainable and not apologizing is, is that I felt like, Oh, I always have to be the person that ever

00:26:10.920 others are expecting to like stick with it. And for me to be sustainable and stick with it, it's like,

00:26:15.620 I have to be doing the lab stuff. And that's what sustains me and complimenting myself with the people

00:26:20.240 who like, I have this guy, David, who I work with. I don't have him. David works with me and he loves

00:26:25.280 doing operation stuff. And I'm like, you want to do this? And he's like, yeah, I love it. And I'm like,

00:26:29.040 all right, you do this all day. Or Samantha does recruiting all day. And I hate, I hate doing

00:26:34.320 recruiting. Literally. I love when we hire people and it works out, but I hated the recruiting part.

00:26:38.440 And she is like, that's her favorite thing to do all day. And I'm like, you want to do this? She's

00:26:41.880 like, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I think you really have to figure out, you know, where is your sweet

00:26:46.780 spot? How do you put yourself in that position and make it fun for yourself and enjoyable and

00:26:51.000 sustainable, most importantly, and then get the people around you that can compliment you.

00:26:55.060 The thing that, that, that kind of I've reflected on is like, think about all the people

00:26:58.860 you admire. So for anyone who, whatever this is in your earlobe for whoever has out there,

00:27:03.460 like think about the companies or the people you admire and what is it about them that's

00:27:06.840 appealing. And for me, you know, I think about Jeff Bezos, right? Like this guy is just, I'm so

00:27:11.580 impressed with him and Amazon. And what it is is that they keep evolving, right? And the second part

00:27:16.360 is that it takes time. And I think a lot of us, as we're doing businesses, we're not willing to put

00:27:20.120 in time. We're kind of wanting like this 15 second scroll, instant gratification. And it doesn't

00:27:24.940 happen that way when we're trying to create impressive things.

00:27:27.240 Yeah, I, I, I agree.

00:27:28.700 So that's kind of, that's what I've, where's where I've gone to. It's like, it's going to take a long

00:27:31.820 time. So how do I put myself in the place that I can be there and excited and have the people around

00:27:35.960 me that are in the same place too.

00:27:38.620 And then what you said made me think, so your, your sweet spot is, you know, starting things and

00:27:43.000 experimenting and things like that. But there's some people who that's not their thing. Like they're good

00:27:47.600 managers. And I think it's important for people to embrace that. Maybe you're not a founder and that's

00:27:52.540 okay. But I think I've oftentimes in this sort of online thing that there's this idea, if you're

00:27:57.600 not a founder, if you're not starting businesses and like, you're a sucker, who's like working for 0.98

00:28:02.020 the man and like, you're, you're a slave, a wage slave, whatever. But like, no, maybe you can do 0.99

00:28:07.840 something of value and provides, cause you have the talent for, you know, managing and making sure

00:28:12.520 things are continue to grow. And, um, the thing that was started is sustained, is sustained.

00:28:17.980 Well, you know, I've thought about this a lot, especially cause I have people that I work with,

00:28:21.340 like there's, you know, others call them employees. I call them teammates and I'm like, well,

00:28:24.840 I don't want their, I want their lives to be better from this. And I don't want them feeling

00:28:28.440 like they're working for them. Right. Or that Noah's their boss, which they never call me their

00:28:32.140 boss ever. And what I realized is that being the founder or starting a business actually sucks. 0.97

00:28:38.460 And I know, I think it's a little counterintuitive, but being an employee is actually for the most

00:28:41.600 part, a better deal. And I've come up with like a formula called the four Ps. And it's basically

00:28:47.460 like, it's not about being a founder or an employee. It's about what are the four Ps of

00:28:51.380 fundamentals that matter in business, right? And what people want out of a job or a career.

00:28:56.300 And what they want is right. They want to work on a product that they care about. They want to have

00:29:00.580 some purpose of what they're working on. They want to get paid and they want to work around great

00:29:05.440 people. And if you can get that at a job, right? Like someone, if I could go to another company

00:29:09.820 and they do those four, the four Ps, then I would be there. I wouldn't be at Sumo,

00:29:13.900 but at Sumo, I get that. And I want everyone who works with me to get paid. I want them to

00:29:17.920 be around great people. I want to work their product like, and they have their purpose,

00:29:20.700 what they're working on. And I think people are just concerned with like, oh, I'll get much

00:29:24.640 more freedom. It'll be more fun. And I always joke, there's a fifth P where when you run a

00:29:28.480 company, you get more problems. There's definitely good parts. And people say, well,

00:29:33.120 you have more control or more freedom. It's like, you could find a job where you have control and

00:29:36.500 freedom. And I just think people are kind of a little bit more enamored or glamorized that being an

00:29:40.840 entrepreneur, it just automatically that happens when a lot of times being employees, frankly,

00:29:43.840 going to be a better deal for most people.

00:29:45.580 Right. Because you can take the weekends off while the founder is trying to figure out what

00:29:50.120 to do with this fire that started.

00:29:53.060 We got sued a few weeks ago. Our lawsuit was sent to us. I'm getting deposed about another

00:29:58.300 company. And not that lawsuits always happen. They don't. But it's generally a sign that things

00:30:02.340 have done well for you to some extent. But you just have to deal with our taxes or the accountants

00:30:07.440 or the parts that are not sexy that a lot of people, when they see success, they don't see the

00:30:12.240 hard work or I guess the long times of struggle or suffering that goes into where to get to that

00:30:17.700 point. I got paid $40,000 a year for the first few years of the company, $40,000 and then $70,000

00:30:23.060 when I was making big six figures before that, when I was working at a job.

00:30:28.160 And this is a crazy thing, Brett. I actually did the math.

00:30:30.620 Only until a year ago, did I actually make more money starting a business. This is after

00:30:35.760 nearly 10 years. After 10 years, literally two years ago, did I make more money than if

00:30:41.660 I just kept a regular job.

00:30:42.980 Wow.

00:30:43.660 And considering inflation and interest and all the, and even, you know, and all these things,

00:30:47.380 I actually ran the numbers and it was actually almost better to be an employee.

00:30:50.600 That's pretty crazy.

00:30:51.640 Yeah. I did the numbers. I was like, you know, cause we always assume, oh, you start your

00:30:54.700 business, you're gonna make a bunch of money. And it's like, well, finally after 10 years,

00:30:57.180 I'm making a little bit more, but it took a long time to get that.

00:31:01.000 Something to think about if you're thinking about starting a business. That shouldn't deter

00:31:03.920 you necessarily from starting a business, but it's a factor to consider, right? That

00:31:09.080 maybe people aren't considering.

00:31:11.460 Yeah. I mean, starting a business is great because you're solving a problem that you're

00:31:13.940 interested in and you do have a little bit more direction of where the ship goes to some

00:31:17.800 extent. But at the end of the day, like it's just as good, like if I could go work on a

00:31:22.520 problem that I'm really excited about and I could have a huge impact on it and I get paid

00:31:26.820 really well and I get all these things that I want for P's, I'm like, well, great. I don't

00:31:30.440 need to be the founder.

00:31:31.780 Some great, solid advice there. So let's talk about, let's transition more to like personal,

00:31:35.920 even, but I think what we've been talking about is personal, but, but like besides testing

00:31:39.740 things in your business and experimenting, uh, you're constantly testing things in your

00:31:44.380 life so you can improve it. And you've written about this concept of the self-diagnostic

00:31:48.840 or diagnosis, what's the word diagnosis? It's like basically what you do on a car.

00:31:52.620 Yeah. So what you do on a car, like to figure out what's going on with the car. So what,

00:31:58.080 what's involved in your self-diagnostic evaluation to figure out how you can improve?

00:32:03.240 The, yeah, self-diagnostic is interesting. So just as an example, this morning, I said,

00:32:07.080 I get a really nice chair. So get something comfortable that you're looking forward to.

00:32:11.460 And I have this nice chair and the point of, right, I have a nice chair is like makes things

00:32:15.400 easy to enable yourselves to do them. And what does that mean? It's like, get yourself better

00:32:19.320 shoes. So you're actually more likely to go running or get a chair. So you're more likely

00:32:22.700 to use it or a desk or whatever that is, especially things that you use a lot of the time. And so in

00:32:27.300 the morning, I basically just do a self-diagnostic and reflect. I just sit down and I sit and I think

00:32:32.020 about, all right, how's myself? How's my work? How's my relationships? And then the last part is

00:32:36.960 like, how do I want the day to look? And so today actually like doing this led me to a lot of really

00:32:41.960 good insights. And I think so like meditation, I have, I don't understand it. It's like think too much,

00:32:46.020 but don't think too much. I'm like, I don't know which one to do. I guess that's maybe I dropped

00:32:49.640 out of philosophy class. And so like today it led me to like make a note to like contact Michael Dell.

00:32:56.180 I want to try to get him on my, my podcast. I was like, okay, that's an interesting one.

00:33:00.400 Or I was thinking about buying these car rims. Cause I'm, I told you I'm fixing up that Miata

00:33:04.460 and I was like, yeah, just go for it. Even though there's only two of them and I have to find the

00:33:07.860 other two. I was like, there's, I have confidence I'll find the other two rims. And sometimes it's

00:33:12.100 silly things like that. And sometimes it's going to be bigger. Like, oh, this guy I'm working with,

00:33:16.000 it's not working out well. Or what things do I, how can I make that relationship better?

00:33:19.380 Or with my significant other, how do I do something sweet for them? And so I've actually found that.

00:33:23.480 And then thinking about it, the last part is like, how is my, how do I like, I want my day to look,

00:33:28.120 how do I look forward to my day? And I've realized that like, I do that the night before and I can

00:33:32.760 talk about some of the things to make your day better and get more stuff done. But just having in

00:33:36.600 the morning, like literally like 30 seconds and doing the first three things, yourself, your work,

00:33:41.680 relationships, and then thinking about how do I want this day to look? It's like, awesome.

00:33:45.840 I can make the day exactly how I want it. I can have an epic day versus I think for the most part,

00:33:50.700 and I would say for this, for, you know, it's not, I don't do it every day, the self-diagnostic,

00:33:53.980 but I try to do it most days. But the days I just kind of let happen, I'm always like,

00:33:57.780 sometimes they're good, but sometimes they're bad. And it's like, well, if you, you only have so many

00:34:01.460 days, let's say on earth, maybe you only have like, I don't know, a hundred thousand or 10,000,

00:34:04.980 like wouldn't you want to engineer more of those days to be better? And so I try to work backwards

00:34:08.920 from like what elements are great days and so forth. And we can talk more about that later. But the point with the

00:34:12.740 self-diagnostic is like, all right, well, I'm looking forward to this. I'm not looking forward

00:34:15.660 to that. I don't want to do these things. It's like, all right, cool. Let's maybe think about

00:34:18.660 removing that.

00:34:19.880 Okay. Let's talk about like, what, how do you, so you do this self-diagnostic in the morning.

00:34:24.640 How do you, that, that question of how do I want my day to look? What sort of things are you

00:34:30.120 looking at to engineer a good day for yourself?

00:34:33.880 Yeah. So I do, I'll tell you what's been, what I've been doing recently. That's been really

00:34:37.060 interesting. So the things have been interesting that have changed the way that my week has,

00:34:40.520 have been are a few different components. And I'll give you a bunch that are, that are happening

00:34:45.000 for me. And then you, everyone listening and you're up in your earlobes, just pick one that

00:34:47.900 works for you and start with that. But I think the whole conceptually is I experiment with how

00:34:52.000 my weeks and days are to maximize my day, maximize my week for enjoyment, fulfillment. Not that it's

00:34:57.480 only just me playing and partying or anything like that, but it's like, what things do I know

00:35:01.480 make my days great? What does it not work, make it great. So here's a few things. Number one,

00:35:05.560 I color code my calendar. So my calendar is color coded based on a few different things. It's like,

00:35:10.340 growth, gym, podcast, or okay to work on my YouTube channel, sumo, and then admin. And I

00:35:17.900 color code it that way. And then really fun. And literally it's color coded. And what that did is

00:35:23.860 that it helped me look at my calendar and be like, am I spending my time in the, like, what is my

00:35:28.260 priority? My priority is growing my podcast and helping sumo and going to the gym. And then literally

00:35:32.420 in an instant, I can see how much I'm allocating towards that and then change it. Like, oh, do I have

00:35:36.680 a bunch of meetings? Oh, I don't really want those meetings. I'm just going to cancel them and so

00:35:39.940 forth. So that's been one thing that's been helpful. Two, I do a note card at night. I have

00:35:45.280 a three by five note card that I noticed every morning I was getting anxiety about what to do

00:35:49.060 that day. And so at night, I look at every Sunday, I set my goals for the week. So I have three goals.

00:35:54.840 I have three sections, work, workout, and personal. And I have three, generally three to five for each

00:35:58.340 one of those. And I put them in my calendar and block out time to do them.

00:36:01.140 And then at night now, I have an index card, just a crappy ass index card. And I just write 0.92

00:36:07.460 a list of the things that I'm doing that next day. And it's one of the things I've always heard

00:36:11.220 about, Brett. And I was like, no, I'm not going to do it. But doing it has changed everything.

00:36:15.380 Like today, it's like prep for your show and do the show with you. Read an NPR article,

00:36:20.720 set up some retargeting ads. And just having that in the morning, I'm like, cool, let me go make

00:36:25.260 sure I get these done. And then it just actually made my day like, because some days you ever finish

00:36:29.220 the day and you're like, what did I do today? All the time. And at least all the time, right?

00:36:33.120 I've just found that like, you know, you got to kind of keep experimenting with your week and

00:36:36.360 adjusting it to make it more effective for yourself and more pleasurable. So two of the

00:36:40.820 things that I've done is that I've scheduled Wednesdays is do nothing Wednesday. And that's

00:36:45.440 been really helpful where I noticed that like we, when we open a computer or when we get to work,

00:36:51.120 we stop thinking. And a lot of my great ideas or what I think are great or things that have

00:36:56.020 been impactful don't happen when I'm at work or don't happen when I'm on a computer.

00:37:00.160 And so I took a whole week off as an extreme experiment. I didn't do anything and I didn't

00:37:04.100 plan anything. And I was like, that's a little bit much to do that every week. Because then it's

00:37:07.740 kind of like you just kind of react to stuff. But I found just taking Wednesdays off and not

00:37:12.320 scheduling anything doesn't mean I can't work. But on Wednesday, I'm like, well, what do I want to do

00:37:15.700 today? Because I don't plan it. I don't have things that are like fixed in there. It helps me kind of

00:37:19.820 just spend more time thinking about bigger problems for the company or for myself. And I've really enjoyed

00:37:24.720 that. So I think I would encourage people to block out like an hour a day and try it out, maybe even two,

00:37:28.740 maybe a whole day, maybe a week of doing nothing. And then it'll help you kind of see what's rising

00:37:32.620 to the top and where you want to spend your time. And so I've kind of forced that on myself.

00:37:36.300 Those have been a few. I mean, I've got a bunch of others. That's kind of like things that I've done

00:37:40.220 that helped me get it. I think fundamentally for everyone listening, here's like the stupidest 1.00

00:37:43.800 simple thing you could do right now. Open your phone, go on notes, just go to notes and think about the 0.98

00:37:50.560 last great day you had and just write out the elements of a great day. Like so for me, I know

00:37:55.820 it's like, well, if I get an interview with you, like this is really fun for me. I love sharing this

00:37:59.160 stuff and talking with you. That's number one. So like creating content. Number two, if I get to

00:38:03.580 exercise, right? Number three, if I get to flirt or have some type of like interaction with a

00:38:07.900 significant other, I like that, right? If I get to have like some type of entertainment. And so just

00:38:13.020 think about what are the, and everyone's different, but think about what are the elements of your

00:38:16.400 great day, right? And then all you have to do is say, all right, how am I doing these elements

00:38:20.780 today? Am I having an exciting lunch? Right? Am I like you had your, you had your oatmeal and eggs

00:38:26.300 and you seem like you really liked that. It seemed like it. Yeah. It's, I just consider it fuel for,

00:38:31.660 for working out. Yeah. Well, the point being is figure out what parts of your day, you know,

00:38:36.420 make your day better. Think about last great day you had and what happened that day.

00:38:39.880 And then work backwards and say, all right, these are the elements. Like I've actually put this on a

00:38:43.260 sticky note. And then I'm like, all right, in, in my days, how do I make sure I try to make sure I

00:38:47.000 add these different elements? And that stuff will evolve. Maybe things you did in the past,

00:38:51.000 like right now I'm fasting as a challenge. So I've been fasting for 72 hours. Like I just ate last

00:38:55.500 night, but I was like, no, not having breakfast. You know, I'm actually, I can still have a great

00:38:59.820 day even if I don't have breakfast. Well, what do you do? I mean, it's, you know, it's all well and

00:39:04.340 good to plan out these good days, but Mike Tyson said, everyone has a plan until they get punched in

00:39:09.680 the face. What do you do when something pops up that puts a snag in your plan? How do you adapt

00:39:14.900 and maintain flexibility so it doesn't, you're not frustrated because your plan isn't going

00:39:21.500 according to plan? I struggle with that. I, it's, you know, the stupid example for me is that let's

00:39:28.340 say Brett, me and you are going to go, go to a certain Mexican restaurant. And then at the last 0.99

00:39:32.200 minute, you're like, Hey, actually, can we go somewhere else? And I've already started planning and

00:39:35.380 having like salivating about what we're going to eat. And it's something that I wouldn't say I'm great at.

00:39:39.080 I generally am, I'm generally a planner and I stick to my plans. And so it's working on when

00:39:44.820 to be flexible and when not to be. And I, a lot of people actually ask me like, how do I get so

00:39:48.440 much done? Or sometimes I don't even think I get that much done or how do I stay focused? And I

00:39:52.660 think it's because I, I practice saying no a lot. The other thing is I don't go to, we have an office

00:39:57.260 for the company and I noticed, I love the people I work with. I truly do. I just noticed that I get more

00:40:02.260 done and I'm more like effective and less distracted when I'm at home or when I work earlier in the

00:40:06.660 morning. And so I think people need to kind of reflect on like, when are they really in their

00:40:10.140 peak productivity times or when are they not getting distracted from their plan? I think

00:40:14.440 the more important thing for myself is evaluating plans you're doing and seeing if they're still

00:40:18.240 helping you get to where you want to go. Like my mom, for instance, I love my mom. We all love our

00:40:23.000 mothers. I hope my mom will follow plans, whether they're beneficial to her or not. Like she'll keep

00:40:27.520 doing like a certain gym activity, whether she likes it or not. And it's like, well, why don't you

00:40:33.180 just reevaluate your plan? And so just be self-aware about things you're doing as you're

00:40:37.540 planning them. It's like, is this really helping me go to where I want to be going? And I think

00:40:40.860 that that's been powerful for me. So like, as an example for myself as meetings, like people will

00:40:45.020 be like, Hey, I'm coming into town today. Are you around? And I'm like, no. And unless it's

00:40:48.940 something like, you know, I think it'll be really special or really add to my day. I just, you have to

00:40:52.100 practice saying no to things. Yeah. No, I think that's, it's an important skill, learning how to say no.

00:40:56.560 And that can be hard. It's hard for people. And we, as we mentioned earlier, yeah. And speaking of like,

00:41:00.900 just finding times that you can work when you're not distracted, I often like, that's one of the

00:41:06.840 reasons why occasionally I'll pull an all-nighter because at nighttime, there's nothing going on.

00:41:12.280 Like you're not getting emails. You're not getting phone calls. The internet is dead for the most part.

00:41:18.500 And I found that some of my most productive times are when like at three o'clock in the morning

00:41:22.980 and I'm able to crank stuff out. So I used to do it more frequently when I was younger and I could

00:41:27.620 like recover faster from the lack of sleep. I don't do it so much now, but every now and then

00:41:31.280 I'll pull a good all-nighter and I'm amazed at how much I can get done during that time.

00:41:36.020 Yeah. I think that's a function. I did a 5am challenge, which I'd encourage everyone to do

00:41:39.420 for about two months. And I think that's a function of one, being at a time when it's quiet for you.

00:41:47.240 Right. And I think there's also a second part of finding something that you're actually excited to

00:41:51.600 stay up late for or wake up early for. Like I'm sure when you've launched Stranger This Life,

00:41:54.780 you put a lot of hours into it and it's because you're super excited about it. And so I think

00:41:58.840 sometimes when people are like, oh, I don't have anything to work on. It's like, because you

00:42:01.300 probably have to go find something that you're excited to be working on for late at night or

00:42:04.460 early in the morning. Yeah. And the other trick I've used too is I'll go to sometimes if I just

00:42:10.380 need some time. Cause like when you're, I have, you know, I have kids, so they're, they want,

00:42:14.380 they need attention oftentimes. And if there's something I need to work, I just need unadulterated focus.

00:42:19.880 I'll, uh, go to a, just a crappy hotel, like near the house that has wifi and just check in

00:42:27.320 and like spend the night, you know, it's like 80 bucks, but I get like 24 hours of uninterrupted

00:42:32.640 work time. So that's another trick. Dude, I like that. I know, uh, Andrew Warner was telling me,

00:42:38.140 he goes to super fancy hotels to work during the day as like a nice treat and plus a good experience.

00:42:42.460 The two things I was wondering for you. So one, do you find, and for me, I find myself productive

00:42:46.980 on airplanes. Do you find yourself on airplanes? No, I'm not productive on airplanes. I've heard

00:42:50.900 that trick. I've heard of people like, I'm so excited. You don't have wifi so I can get a lot

00:42:54.800 done. I don't, I'm just like uncomfortable and it's just not a pleasant experience for me. So I

00:43:00.620 just typically, I tend to read. That's what I do. I mean, that's my product. That's what I do.

00:43:04.700 Especially if I'm traveling with kids, like you're not going to be productive at all. So,

00:43:07.700 um, do you, well, then the second part with that. Okay. So for airplanes for me are good

00:43:12.280 cause no wifi. So I'm like, well, how do I just have no wifi during the daytime? And that's where

00:43:16.120 like the block site thing or trying to turn off wifi during certain hours. The second thing

00:43:20.080 someone told me yesterday, and I love your, your opinion on this is that do you find having

00:43:23.820 kids, the ultimate productivity hack or productivity like thing, because now you can't, you don't,

00:43:29.320 you can't really waste that much time. Yeah. I mean, what have you noticed since you've had

00:43:32.100 kids, how that change your productivity? Yeah. It's, it's been a boon and also a negative.

00:43:35.420 Like for one thing, like you, you have, you can't work as much, right. Um, compared to when

00:43:40.600 you were childless. So you lose that, you lose time. Also there just can be exhausting. They're

00:43:47.080 tiring because you're at the running around everywhere. So you don't have the same amount

00:43:49.580 of energy, but the time you do have, like you try to make the most of it as possible. So you don't,

00:43:56.560 you don't mess around. You don't do the wheel as often as you used to maybe. So you're, I feel like

00:44:02.260 I have been more productive in the time I have, but yeah, I do miss some of that time where I'm like,

00:44:07.140 okay, it's six o'clock. I can get this done. But now I don't do that because I got to take,

00:44:13.320 you know, I got to coach T-ball or something. You coach T-ball? Yeah. I coached T-ball. This

00:44:18.220 is my, it was my, my son's first year playing T-ball and, um, I'm the coach. What's that like

00:44:23.620 doing like the Lion King where you're now like you're the lion and then he's Simba. I think that's

00:44:28.300 how it is. No, because like I, you know, I was a kid. I played T-ball and baseball a lot

00:44:32.720 of years. I'm like now, and we're, we're relatively young guys. It's like, what's it like

00:44:36.520 to finally now be the father and you're coaching and you see your kid playing T-ball?

00:44:39.620 Well, I mean, it's fun. I mean, right now, like the kids are like five and six. So like,

00:44:42.880 we're still like trying to get the fundamentals of just them trying to catch and throw the ball.

00:44:48.060 Right. And I basically have no expectations. Like I'm just trying to get some fundamentals. And

00:44:53.420 these past few practices, I've been trying to explain the concept of forced outs. Um,

00:44:58.940 and if you want to test your patience and try to explain the concept of forced outs to a,

00:45:05.360 to a five-year-old, um, some of the, yeah, they're getting it slowly, but yeah, that's another thing

00:45:10.220 about kids. They do definitely teach you more patience, which I do with, I think carries over

00:45:14.760 to other aspects of your life, like your business life, right? You learn how to be more patient with

00:45:19.900 people you work with because you've practiced it at home with your kids. Yeah. Well, so no, you've,

00:45:26.140 um, you've got a lot of irons in the fire. You're starting gum companies on the side. Uh, you're

00:45:32.000 eating tacos, you're working out. You've actually packed on Evan, like, like 40 pounds of muscle

00:45:37.060 since you started like working out in gusto. I actually, yeah, I experiment with my body a lot.

00:45:42.120 And so last year I gained 50 pounds or 40 pounds and lost it. Uh, and then now I've been more or less

00:45:47.680 maintaining that. Yeah. I mean, so what are you doing? You're doing barbell training. What are you,

00:45:51.420 what's your, what's your protocol? You know, I think physical fitness and like,

00:45:56.140 our nutrition is an evolution, right? And it's funny cause like everyone, people now know it,

00:46:00.080 but like it used to be fat free was the thing. And then now coconut oil and keto and all this

00:46:05.480 other stuff with the things. And I think fasting will be the next thing that a lot more people

00:46:08.520 do not intermittent, but like literal fasting. And so I think what people have to do is like,

00:46:12.160 what kind of body do you want? What kind of health do you want? And then how do you work

00:46:16.340 backwards from that? And so for me, I, I track all my calories. I've been tracking for two years,

00:46:23.040 every single day I use my fitness pal. And I just find that really helpful for myself.

00:46:27.160 That's not for everyone, but I like that. And I think the two major parts, people ignore their

00:46:31.900 diet, but for diet, find a diet that likes to sustainable. Like my mom does the watermelon 1.00

00:46:35.320 diet. She eats watermelon for like a month and then she loses a bunch of weight. And then the next 0.99

00:46:39.420 month she eats pizza and burgers and gains it all back. And there's no point. And so the bigger thing

00:46:44.900 there is like, how do you find, you know, breakfast, snacks, lunch, dinner that you can do for a long

00:46:51.000 time. And you're also happy with, like, I don't want to get hit by a car today after the show.

00:46:54.480 And then be like, man, I really wish I would have had a cookie, but I never had a cookie. So I had

00:46:57.900 a body because of the sexy body. Like what's actually, you want to hear something really

00:47:01.040 counterintuitive. I went, I really wanted a six pack. So I worked my ass off, which was,

00:47:05.140 you don't realize how much work it takes to get that. It's a lot. And I literally was probably one

00:47:09.480 of the least happy times of my life. And I was like, man, I got this physical body that I'm so happy

00:47:14.120 about. Well, I'm, I should have been happy about, but I'm like not happy in general because my libido is down,

00:47:18.840 my energy's down. Like I can't eat anything. I'm like, that kind of defeats the whole purpose of

00:47:23.620 this. And so I've kind of wanted to find that happy medium where I have a body that I physically

00:47:27.840 like, but I'm also like, I can indulge at times. So I think where I'm leaning towards is like a

00:47:32.160 six, one strategy where six days a week I eat really well. And then one day a week I either

00:47:36.580 eat really crappy or I fast. And so that's kind of what I'm experimenting with now. And probably next

00:47:41.080 time we chat, it might be a little different, but my, you know, my diet's pretty like egg,

00:47:44.440 white, chicken, vegetables. And then, you know, here and there are some drinks and here and

00:47:47.900 there, you know, creme brulee. And then at the gym, the gym is boring for me, man. Like

00:47:54.580 I've been going to the gym five years and it's just so damn boring. Like I literally feel like

00:47:58.100 I'm in a prison jail and I'm like with the boys and like we're pumping iron and I'm just

00:48:02.200 like, I'm, I'm, I'm paying to be in this jail cell. And so you kind of have to figure out

00:48:07.400 how do I get the results without necessarily having to go to the gym. And so for me, what I've

00:48:11.800 done is a few things. One, I bike now. I just love being outside biking. It's been like

00:48:16.020 either mountain biking or regular. And so, or, you know, even on the road bike in the,

00:48:20.000 in my building. So I'd target about 200 miles a month from biking, which is kind of encouraged

00:48:24.440 me to, I use a run keeper and it has a thing where it's all free. It says how many miles

00:48:29.140 you want to run or bike this month? I say 200 and it kind of motivates me during the day

00:48:32.680 to bike instead of use my scooter or drive. And then the gym, what I found works for me

00:48:38.800 and it's not works for everybody. I go three times a week and I want a big arm and a big

00:48:42.820 chest. Cause that I, I'm not trying to be strong. I'm just trying to look strong. Like

00:48:47.080 I know myself, I don't, I don't want to lift up a car. Like if you ever get a car, like

00:48:50.620 a cars on top of you, which I don't know how often that happens. Like, don't look to me.

00:48:54.040 I look to probably a woman who's going to be a lot stronger. And so I just want to look

00:48:59.540 strong. So I want my chest to be big and I want my arms to be big. Cause that's the things

00:49:01.980 that people see. So Mondays I do chest day. Uh, Wednesdays I'll do like a circuit and then

00:49:09.200 Saturdays I'll do a circuit. The circuit on Wednesdays are like around every other

00:49:12.560 part, not legs. And then Saturdays kind of like a circuit around legs, which means I

00:49:15.840 just do high intensity kind of like lighter weight, a lot of reps, really, really fast

00:49:19.920 pace. Uh, and generally I want my workouts to be very painful and very uncomfortable.

00:49:24.780 So I'm not, not to a point where I won't want to come back. Cause I think that's

00:49:27.760 discouraging, but to a point where I'm like, man, I, I pushed myself and I'm like

00:49:31.420 that last rep was the rep that counted. Right. And out of that, that's, I've gotten a

00:49:35.780 body where I'm happy with it now. Yeah. Well, that's your thing. Yeah. I, I, I, I enjoy the, I

00:49:40.960 have a, I have a garage gym. So that's, that's my little, that's my safe place. I

00:49:45.320 love going down there and training. I do the same thing week in and week out, but

00:49:49.200 it's just, I don't know, for some reason I enjoy it.

00:49:51.920 You know, it's amazing. My, one of my best friends is Adam from mybodytutor.com. I

00:49:55.480 don't know if you've talked to him or aware of him, but he is like that where he

00:49:58.220 literally, his weeks are almost always the same. And I think you, the point you've

00:50:02.200 made, which is great. I kind of like, I don't know if you intended that is that like

00:50:04.960 you have to know yourself and embrace that. So for me doing the same exercise

00:50:08.240 every week is just not, not my nature, not, not even by nature. Nature can

00:50:11.940 change, but it's not what I'm interested in. And so I have to find like, how do I

00:50:15.160 do something for six months that I'm interested in and then kind of continually

00:50:18.040 evolve that, which that, that part does work for me.

00:50:20.660 Yeah. Well, so you've mentioned some tools you use to manage how you get so

00:50:25.380 much done. So you use a calendar. I'm assuming that's like Google Calendar or

00:50:30.120 something like that. Yeah. So yeah. Google Calendar. Google Calendar. You use

00:50:33.420 MyFitnessPal to track macros. I mean, use the, the cards to manage your to-do

00:50:38.100 list. Any other tools that you use to ensure that everything gets done and

00:50:42.740 done well?

00:50:43.760 Yeah. So I'll give you, I've talked about a few of them. Like the, the note

00:50:46.360 cards was a game changer. Like I started doing that last year and it just made my

00:50:50.520 productivity a lot more effective. Number two is every Sunday night I plan out

00:50:54.680 my week. And it's kind of these things where it's like, take a big goal that you

00:50:58.060 want in your life, getting married, something professional, something on your

00:51:01.020 health. And I do it for a year. I do a yearly bucket list and I put it on my

00:51:05.260 fridge so I can see it right now. And one of my bucket list ones is to bike a

00:51:10.080 thousand miles this year, or it's to go work in Israel or to get a chess coach and

00:51:15.220 then break that down to monthly and then break it down to weekly. So every week I

00:51:18.540 say, what are my three categories, in my three categories, work, work out and

00:51:21.360 personal. And then I pick the things I want to do and then I block them out of

00:51:24.680 my calendar. And then I do note cards the night before. And sometimes it's like,

00:51:28.640 oh, there's actually higher priority thing that I can think of that would make a

00:51:31.320 bigger difference towards my yearly goals. So that's number one, kind of the

00:51:34.860 Sunday thing. Number two, hire an assistant. And I was talking with people

00:51:38.620 about it last night at dinner. And it's not about being rich. And you can get an

00:51:42.300 assistant that's a friend of yours who's unemployed. Like I have a friend, he's

00:51:45.380 unemployed right now. So I paid him to go pick up my clothes and take him to

00:51:48.180 Goodwill. So he gets money, right? I pay him like 20, 25 an hour. And I get my stuff

00:51:52.760 taken care of. And that gives me more time. And so I'm putting a video on my

00:51:56.120 YouTube channel, Noah Kagan, for people who want to see more how to do it. But the

00:51:59.460 point is time is your most precious asset. It's literally the most precious

00:52:03.100 asset. And when people said it, I've never really believed it. But now that

00:52:06.360 I'm 35 and I will never be 25 again, unless some crazy science, I don't know,

00:52:10.360 maybe Brett, you'll invent it or someone will invent it, I hope. I'll probably not

00:52:13.500 ever be 25 again. And it's this kind of realization of, oh my God, time really

00:52:17.800 doesn't come back. And after my father died, it was even more clear. I was like, oh my

00:52:21.980 God, it's really not coming back. It's a one-way street. And so an assistant

00:52:26.120 basically gives you more time to do the things you want to do. So you can use

00:52:29.300 fancy hands. I'm using a service called fin.com, which is kind of pricey. You

00:52:33.000 could find someone on oDesk or freelancer and basically figure out how do you get

00:52:36.260 more time, right? And the most valuable asset is by hiring people. So hire an

00:52:40.060 assistant or people around you to assist you so you can spend time doing what you

00:52:43.680 want. Two other things that have really helped me get more done. Although I'll do

00:52:46.960 three, if that's okay with you.

00:52:48.080 Sure.

00:52:48.620 Number one, turn off all your notifications and vibrations on your phone.

00:52:52.440 Like, I think people are just too damn distracted. They're like, oh, I've got a

00:52:56.880 buzz. All right. I got to go do this now. And I think you just turn off all this

00:53:00.800 stuff. You don't miss it. And you don't think you start just focusing on the

00:53:03.940 things that are mattering at that moment in general. And you stop being, I think

00:53:08.160 anyone who could focus longer than a minute these days wins. Like no joke. If you

00:53:12.240 can focus longer than a minute, you're probably going to do better than most

00:53:14.720 people. And for me, I found turning off my vibration. So I don't know when phone

00:53:17.860 calls come. I don't know when texts come. And when I want to check them, I check

00:53:21.560 them. And so I found that to be a huge way to get more stuff done that I want to

00:53:25.440 get done. Two other ones. And I have a bunch more, but these are the major

00:53:29.260 things. Learn how to type faster and speed up your mouse speed, like your track pad

00:53:34.440 or your mouse. And the concept here is focus on the top of the funnel things for

00:53:40.460 your life. Meaning, what is the foundation or fundamental bottom thing that

00:53:45.180 you're spending, that everything comes from? So here's another one. Your bed.

00:53:48.260 Like I spent, I don't know, three, four thousand on my bed and my sheets and my

00:53:51.320 pillow and I've tested them. I've literally tested them for the past few

00:53:53.600 years. And I'll keep testing them because if I can have a great sleep, the whole

00:53:57.560 rest of my day is better. And same thing with learning how to type better. Like

00:54:00.140 there's a service typingbolt.com. It's totally free. Or, you know, I used to do

00:54:04.200 a typing shark. But the point being is like your trackpad, like you're using your

00:54:07.580 trackpad all day or you're using your keyboard all day, like focus on improving your

00:54:11.860 foundational items and that'll everything else subsequently in your funnel and

00:54:15.700 your life do better. And then lastly, this is one thing that I've been really,

00:54:18.920 really thinking about. And I'm working on it myself. I can't say I have it great,

00:54:22.680 but work on what your vision looks like. And it doesn't have to be 10 years out.

00:54:26.140 Sometimes that's hard, but just figure out like, where do you want to go, right?

00:54:28.500 In all the, in different aspects of your life. Like I want to have a kid or I want

00:54:31.740 to have this kind of money or I want to live here or I want this thing. And then

00:54:35.000 just write that shit down, put it on a piece of paper, put it on your fridge, put it 1.00

00:54:38.520 on your phone, put it on your computer. And the more that you have clarity about 0.99

00:54:43.180 where you want to go, in my belief, it helps you say no and not do other things

00:54:47.780 that don't align to that. And so that, that'll help you get more done. Cause

00:54:51.240 you're like, is this like, so right now, one of my goals is to get my podcast to

00:54:54.320 a hundred thousand listens to download, right? On the Noah King presents. And

00:54:56.940 it's like, as I'm doing things, I'm like, does this help me get towards that or

00:55:00.220 not? And same with Sumo. We have, Sumo has its own revenue goals and there's

00:55:04.740 decisions like, does this help us get to that or not? And then it makes it easy to

00:55:07.820 kind of say, yes, this is on that side of the line. Let's do it. This is not,

00:55:10.480 let's not do that. And I think you got to start at that clarity. Cause then you

00:55:14.120 work backwards from what things are really aligning to that and helping me

00:55:16.860 get closer to that or further away from it.

00:55:18.960 That's some great stuff. Well, no, there's a lot more we could talk about, but

00:55:21.960 you've written about this on different places on the web. Where can people find

00:55:25.500 out more about your work?

00:55:27.300 Yeah. So I have Noah King presents podcasts, but I want to hear more of my

00:55:30.540 stories. A lot of it is just me showcasing great products or great people that

00:55:34.360 I'm interested, like Mike Posner, who's an artist, or I met with Aubrey Marcus, who

00:55:38.520 started a, you know, this very large supplement company called Onnit. For

00:55:42.220 marketing tips, I run a blog called okdork.com where I just share stories about

00:55:45.560 marketing and business. And then the companies that I started that I helped

00:55:48.980 run is appsumo.com, which is a Groupon for geeks and sumo.com, which are free

00:55:53.460 tools to grow your email list.

00:55:55.200 Fantastic. Well, Noah Kagan, this has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for

00:55:57.960 your time.

00:55:58.800 My guest today was Noah Kagan. He is the CEO of AppSumo. You can find more

00:56:02.480 information about that at appsumo.com if you're a business owner, a lot of great

00:56:05.620 tools there. Also, if you can read his musings about business and life,

00:56:08.500 at okdork.com. Also, check out our show notes at aom.is slash kagan, that's K-A-G-A-N, where 0.86

00:56:14.400 you can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:56:28.640 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips

00:56:32.440 and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com.

00:56:36.040 And if you enjoy the show, I've gotten something out of it. I'd appreciate it if you take one or two

00:56:39.540 minutes to give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher or whatever it else is you use to listen to the

00:56:43.600 podcast. That helps us out a lot. As always, thank you for your continued support. And until next time,

00:56:47.620 this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.

The Art of Manliness - June 22, 2017

#315： The Power of Small Experiments to Supercharge Your Success

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