The Art of Manliness - #335： Exploring Archetypes With Jordan B. Peterson

00:00:00.000 Brad McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. The Epic of

00:00:18.880 Gilgamesh, the Genesis creation story, the Bhagavad Gita. These are just a few examples

00:00:22.840 of the myths and stories that explain human existence. Individuals like Carl Jung and

00:00:27.280 Joseph Campbell have argued that while these myths sprang from different cultures, they all share

00:00:31.340 similar archetypes and metanarratives. My guest today has picked up where Jung and Campbell left

00:00:36.120 off and is making an impassioned case that the way to save ourselves from increasing political

00:00:40.340 polarization is to become acquainted with these ancient human myths once again. His name is

00:00:44.860 Jordan B. Peterson and he's a clinical psychologist at the University of Toronto. But unlike many

00:00:49.000 clinical psychologists, Dr. Peterson has spent his career studying human myths and how they can

00:00:53.620 provide meaning in a world of tragedy and frustration. Today on the show, Jordan provides

00:00:57.920 an introduction to the world of myths and archetypes. We begin our discussion talking about some of the

00:01:01.880 big archetypes we see over and over again in stories across cultures and time and why they show up

00:01:07.000 everywhere. We then discuss feminine and masculine archetypes in detail, how the hero archetype is the

00:01:11.660 link between the two and the examples and examples of the hero archetype from around the world. Jordan

00:01:16.140 argues also that disregarding or ignoring these ancient myths led to the rise of extreme political

00:01:21.500 ideologies in the early 20th century, as well as the resurgence today. We enter a conversation

00:01:25.560 discussing how these myths can help young men journey into noble manhood and talk about some

00:01:30.200 of the books Jordan recommends young men read to learn more about them. While the subject may seem

00:01:34.200 heady, this is an accessible and fun conversation filled with insights about how to live a flourishing,

00:01:38.840 meaningful life. You'll definitely be thinking about these ideas after the show is over. So when the show

00:01:43.120 is over and when you start thinking about those ideas, make sure to check out our show notes at

00:01:46.040 aom.is slash Peterson. Jordan B. Peterson, welcome to the show.

00:01:55.640 Thank you very much.

00:01:56.540 So I've had, you've been one of my most requested guests from my podcast listeners, and I've been

00:02:02.020 following your work online, watching your YouTube videos, your lectures, listening to your podcast,

00:02:08.260 because it's, you focus on an area that has fascinated for a long time, union psychology,

00:02:12.140 psychology, archetypes, things like that. But I'm curious, like, what would you describe what you

00:02:16.500 do? Because you're a clinical psychologist, but your work lately seems much more philosophical,

00:02:23.760 existential. So if someone were to ask you, you know, at a cocktail party, what exactly do you do?

00:02:29.520 What would you tell them?

00:02:30.480 That's a good question. I mean, I'd usually start with my professional identity. You know,

00:02:35.120 I'm a professor at the University of Toronto. I'd tell them I was a clinical psychologist,

00:02:38.640 psychologist. But what am I trying to do, I suppose? For a very long time, I've been trying

00:02:44.360 to understand how it is that people might make sense out of their lives and make meaning and make

00:02:49.740 their lives meaningful in the face of the trouble that life brings. That's central to the clinical

00:02:54.480 practice, of course, because when you see people clinically, they're often suffering from serious

00:02:59.440 problems in their lives less frequently than you might think a consequence of mental illness and

00:03:04.100 more often a consequence of the fact that things can go very badly in people's lives. And we needed

00:03:09.480 positive meaning to offset that. And so I'm very curious about what positive meanings might exist to

00:03:15.060 offset that. And I don't believe that ideologies are the correct answer.

00:03:19.480 Right, yeah. And so what you've done, and we'll get into this bit about ideology not being the correct

00:03:25.660 answer and why that is. You have been exploring myths that have been around in human history for

00:03:33.100 tens of thousands of years, some of them, and trying to find out how we can extract meaning

00:03:38.620 from them, what even us modern individuals can learn from these myths. So did this interest in

00:03:46.040 myths and archetypes and things, did that start before your work as a clinical psychologist or did

00:03:51.300 you work as a clinical psychologist seeing the problems that people have sort of existential?

00:03:55.680 It really started, it started about the same time that I started doing my clinical training, although

00:04:00.900 perhaps even a bit earlier when I was doing my undergraduate degree in psychology, I started to

00:04:06.340 read while the great clinicians, you know, Freud and Rogers and Carl Jung and Abraham Maslow and people

00:04:12.440 like that, the great 20th century clinicians. And I started to study Carl Jung and his ideas of

00:04:18.480 archetypes. And the notion that people inhabit stories was very striking to me and that these stories have a

00:04:25.160 structure and that there are great stories that elucidate that structure profoundly and clearly.

00:04:30.660 And I found that very useful from a personal perspective, but also with regards to my clinical

00:04:35.080 work. And then also theoretically, especially as I started to understand more about how the brain

00:04:39.720 worked, I suppose. So it's a longstanding interest. It's tangled up too with the issue of ideology,

00:04:46.300 because when I was doing my clinical training to begin with, I was also simultaneously working on a book

00:04:51.980 I published in 1999 called Maps of Meaning. And Maps of Meaning was in part to an attempt to

00:04:57.820 understand the relationship between people's belief systems and their capacity to regulate their own

00:05:03.020 emotion, both positive and negative emotion, because those are separate circuits. And so all of those

00:05:07.900 things were tangled together in my initial investigations into, let's say, narrative, and then deeper into the

00:05:14.080 substructure of narrative.

00:05:15.540 Right. Well, I think for people to understand what you do and kind of set the foundation for the rest of our

00:05:20.740 conversation here, as you said, your work really has grown off of the work of Carl Jung. And you mentioned that

00:05:27.080 Carl Jung had this idea of sort of these narratives, the meta-narratives that we all live out in some way and that

00:05:32.200 they've been distilled into these stories that you see in antiquity, the Sumerians, the Old Testament, even in

00:05:39.940 India and other cultures.

00:05:41.640 Everywhere.

00:05:42.320 Everywhere.

00:05:43.240 Everywhere.

00:05:43.780 So for those who aren't familiar with Jung, I mean, I guess his big idea is that these narratives exist,

00:05:48.220 but how did these narratives come into place? What was his idea? Like, why is it that all these

00:05:53.500 cultures share these same stories, no matter where you go and no matter what time you're in?

00:05:57.880 Well, Jung wasn't particularly clear about how they emerged. He made various attempts in his life to come up

00:06:04.340 with a causal explanation. I mean, he attributed them to the existence of something he called the

00:06:09.500 collective unconscious, which would be the deep structure of the mind that is shared by every human

00:06:14.460 being. And you could think about that most usefully, I suppose, from a biological perspective, although

00:06:19.560 it's somewhat confusing because it often seems as if what Jung was doing was hypothesizing the

00:06:25.600 existence of inherited memory content. And he never is really clear, all that clear about how he

00:06:32.080 formulates the concept of the collective unconscious, except to say that because we're all human and

00:06:36.940 because we, and I'm paraphrasing, I suppose, because we're all human and because we all share the same

00:06:41.980 biological platform, I mean, a platform that we share even with animals to a large degree, we tend to

00:06:47.280 interpret the world in very similar ways. And those interpretations are often expressed in stories.

00:06:53.660 Stories are descriptions about how human beings act, and our fundamental problem in the world is how to act.

00:06:59.680 And so one of the most fundamental stories, for example, is the hero archetype. And the hero in the

00:07:05.300 archetypal story essentially goes out and confronts chaos, and that's the indeterminate world. That's

00:07:11.460 the world, the confusing, uncertain world, full of unexpected occurrences, dangerous, threatening, and

00:07:17.780 also promising. The hero is the person who voluntarily confronts that and makes sense out of it and

00:07:23.140 establishes habitable territory, let's say, a safe domain, a safe and productive domain. And in that

00:07:29.640 pursuit, especially if it's done voluntarily, it's possible to find deep meaning. And that meaning is

00:07:35.800 an expression of the instinct that guides us out into the unknown so that we can conquer it, let's say,

00:07:41.700 and prevail. And I suppose part of that, there's an existential element to that, which is that in order

00:07:48.100 for people to find the meaning in life that sustains them through the tragedies of life, they have to

00:07:53.660 undertake a courageous and noble adventure, let's say, because there's nothing that gives life enough

00:07:59.500 significance to justify it in the absence of that sort of adventure. And you might say, well, where did

00:08:04.620 these stories come from? And I would say the answer to that is that because human beings are self

00:08:09.260 conscious, and that's something that really distinguishes us quite substantively from other

00:08:13.720 animals, we've been watching ourselves behave for a very long time and trying to understand what it is

00:08:18.860 that we're doing, both when we're successful and when we're unsuccessful. We've created stories,

00:08:23.980 extracted stories or derived stories over 1000s or 10s of 1000s of years that describe both the

00:08:29.760 fundamental pattern of success and the fundamental pattern of failure. And those stories are encoded in

00:08:36.320 great stories and myths, essentially, you know, so that the successful person is the successful hero who

00:08:43.200 establishes order in the midst of chaos and sets up a domain in which he and his family, let's say,

00:08:50.080 and the community can survive and thrive. And the unsuccessful is someone who fails at that and

00:08:56.120 then perhaps even worse becomes embittered by that failure and turns against life and begins to act in a

00:09:02.260 malevolent manner and a destructive manner. So the fundamental narrative landscape in some sense is good

00:09:08.200 versus evil in the world of chaos versus order. It's something like that. And you see that expressed

00:09:13.620 very frequently, for example, in video game structures. So because games and stories share a

00:09:18.240 lot in common.

00:09:19.360 So as you were talking, it sounds like these narratives or these meta narratives or these archetypes,

00:09:26.400 there's sort of a Darwinian thing going on, you talk a lot about survival and failure,

00:09:30.620 and the stories that are useful for people to thrive in this world. Those are the ones that survived.

00:09:37.540 And we still have them today because they are strange.

00:09:40.080 Yeah, well, that's, I would say that that's part of what I've added to the Jungian corpus of

00:09:44.760 thinking is I've tried to place the idea of the functional myth in a Darwinian context and take

00:09:52.360 seriously the idea that our fundamental religious narratives, which are associated with these great

00:09:57.700 myths, are actually evolved structures. And they've evolved at multiple levels. First of all,

00:10:02.620 they're expressions of our physiological being, because we act in certain ways in the world as a

00:10:07.540 consequence of the manner in which we're constituted physiologically. And our physiological

00:10:12.140 constitution is obviously a product of Darwinian processes, like insofar as you buy the,

00:10:18.240 the, by evolutionary theory as a generative, you know, as an account of the mechanism that generated

00:10:24.200 us. So our physiology evolved, our behaviors evolved, then our accounts of those behaviors,

00:10:30.520 both successful and unsuccessful, evolved. And as those accounts evolved, and we shared them,

00:10:35.220 we also changed the landscape in which we were being selected. And so all of these things

00:10:40.440 tangled together, but they tangled together in a way that, that embeds these great stories deeply

00:10:45.740 within us, I would say, both physiologically and psychologically. But yeah, I think about it as a

00:10:50.460 Darwin, deeply Darwinian process. Now, to me, the idea that the, that the world of experience,

00:10:56.020 which is the world in which you act, let's say, not the world that you construe objectively,

00:11:00.780 but the world in which you act, that's best considered as a battle between good and evil

00:11:05.580 in a domain of chaos and order. And the individual is best conceived as the person who mediates between

00:11:11.220 chaos and order. And we're doing that all the time. Whenever you're confused, you can, you confront

00:11:15.680 chaos. And, and that's, that's a, it's a different way of looking at the world to think of chaos as,

00:11:22.000 as a constituent element of experience. But it's very, very helpful because it helps orient you when

00:11:27.100 you're in a state of confusion and when you're in a state of crisis, which is very common for people.

00:11:31.540 And there's guidelines for that, you know, I mean, the great ethical guidelines are,

00:11:35.640 well, they, they, you might say that you're entreated to act nobly, act with humility,

00:11:42.300 act honestly, pursue beauty, pursue your vision, a vision of the future that would make things better

00:11:50.640 for you and for the people around you. I mean, it's all a call, I would say, in some sense to noble

00:11:54.960 action. And people are somewhat cynical about such things today, because they think of that as

00:11:59.220 they try to reduce it to a set of rules and, and also think about it as arbitrary, but it's not

00:12:04.340 arbitrary at all. It's the attempt of, of humanity to determine the appropriate path through the

00:12:10.620 crises of life. And everyone needs to know that path, because everyone's life is rife with crises.

00:12:16.160 So it's very, very practical. It's not abstract at all. I mean, part of the reason there's an

00:12:20.980 injunction to the truth, for example, is that if you're in a circumstance of extreme uncertainty,

00:12:26.520 your best weapon, let's say, or your best tool or your best defense is the truth, because it keeps

00:12:32.200 things simpler. And that's often extremely necessary. And it keeps your eyes clear, because if you exist

00:12:38.580 in a deceitful relationship with the world, then you start to perceive it improperly and, and you warp

00:12:43.640 your reputation and you damage your capacity to think because you've, you're not existing in an

00:12:49.680 authentic relationship with yourself in the world. How could that possibly work? Assuming that there's

00:12:54.800 such a thing as reality, if you have a false relationship with it, how can you do anything

00:12:58.400 but fail? Now, you know, people think that they can use deceit, for example, and warp the structure

00:13:03.820 of reality, because now and then they get away with it in the short term. And that enables them to

00:13:07.940 generate the presupposition that that's an effective strategy. But, but it's not because things come

00:13:13.740 back to bite you, always. So, partly what I've been doing is trying to extract out from these great

00:13:19.700 stories and, and from the biological context in which they're embedded, very, very concrete,

00:13:25.740 what would you say, suggestions about how people should conduct themselves in the world. And, and to

00:13:30.680 try to emphasize how practical this is. You know, I just finished a series of lectures on the, on the

00:13:37.880 biblical stories in Genesis. And for example, I spent a fair bit of time talking about the flood,

00:13:42.860 which is a very common mythological story, the idea that there is a flood and that the creator of,

00:13:48.660 of everything determines that from time to time to wipe things out. And that that's appropriately read

00:13:55.240 as a description of the conditions of existence. You know, no matter who you are, as you walk through

00:14:00.760 life, you're going to be confronted by catastrophes that have the possibility of washing you away.

00:14:06.580 And you need to know how to conduct yourself in order to prevail when that happens. I mean,

00:14:11.580 that can happen to you personally, you can get very ill, or it can happen to you in your family when

00:14:15.420 a family member breaks down or, or dies or, or has something terrible happen to them, or there's an

00:14:20.560 economic catastrophe in your family, and it can happen socially. And not only can it happen, it will

00:14:25.360 happen. No one in the injunction to Noah, for example, or the description of Noah, because he's the

00:14:30.040 person that builds an ark is that he walks with God. And that means that he has his moral house in order,

00:14:35.560 and that his generations are perfect, which means that he has his family in order. And what that

00:14:40.940 means is that when the crisis comes, he's prepared to deal with it, and can prevail. And that's what

00:14:46.160 people need to know. They need to know how to do that, because the crisis is always coming. That's

00:14:50.620 why the apocalypse, the idea of the apocalypse and the end of the world is also archetypal. It's because

00:14:54.940 our worlds come to an end continually, in small ways, and sometimes in large ways. And so,

00:15:01.400 in some sense, it's necessary to be constantly preparing for the apocalypse, because you're going

00:15:07.820 to go through experiences in your life that will throw you for a loop and force you to either radically

00:15:14.000 change or to, or to fail, and perhaps to die. So, it's, it's very serious business.

00:15:22.080 Right. So, these archetypes, these, these apocalypses, they could be like losing a job,

00:15:26.320 or your wife dies, or a child dies, right?

00:15:29.580 Yeah, well, yes, all three of those will, or, or you have a terrible divorce, or,

00:15:34.060 yeah, it's those experiences in life where the fundamental constants that keep you oriented

00:15:40.080 shift, and then you fall into the unknown. That's the underworld of mythology. You fall into the

00:15:45.680 unknown and into the underworld, and part of that underworld can be hell. Now, hell is the part of

00:15:50.260 the underworld that emerges when you're embittered by your failure, and you turn towards

00:15:55.000 the desire to destroy. And everyone who thinks about this can, can appreciate that, because

00:16:00.960 most people, at least if they reflect on their own experience, can understand full well,

00:16:06.580 the negative psychological consequences of, of falling flat on your face. It's, it's not only

00:16:11.480 that you fail, it's that you become bitter and turn against the world. That's a trip to hell for all

00:16:16.120 intents and purposes. 0.63

00:16:17.640 Right. Wailing and gnashing of teeth. 0.94

00:16:19.600 That's for sure. Wailing and gnashing of teeth. Exactly. You know, and we, the, the fundamentalist,

00:16:24.840 types tend to read those things very concretely, and to only project that out into an afterlife,

00:16:30.320 say, or, or a purely spiritual world. And I'm not making any claims about, at the moment, about

00:16:36.540 metaphysics or, or post-life existence. I'm saying that these descriptions pertain to psychological

00:16:43.360 conditions that are always around us, right here and now. And that the mythological landscape is the

00:16:50.100 landscape of human experience. It's not the objective world. And the landscape of human

00:16:54.760 experience and the objective world aren't the same thing. There's no pain. Pain is not an objective

00:16:59.860 thing. It's part of the subjective world of human experience. But it's, but it's, it's reality is,

00:17:05.900 is undeniable from an experiential perspective. So, our, our materialist outlook doesn't do a good job

00:17:13.400 of orienting us in the world because it doesn't tell us how to behave. And it can't. You know,

00:17:17.620 it's the famous conundrum put forward by David Hume, that just, which is, you can't derive an

00:17:22.980 ought from an is, which means no matter how much factual information you extract from the world,

00:17:27.440 you're not going to derive from that an unerring guide to how you should act. And so, you might say,

00:17:33.080 well, there's an endless number of answers to the question how you should act, but that's not helpful

00:17:37.780 because all that does is disorient you.

00:17:40.980 Yeah, that, well, that's what, yeah, you're right. A lot of what we're trying to do,

00:17:43.860 and I feel like in our modern world, and in the world of psychology, particularly, the field of

00:17:47.580 psychology, you have these individuals who are trying to show what the brain is like, and then

00:17:53.020 from that, deriving oughts, right? Well, the brain does this, so therefore you should do this so you

00:17:59.280 live a happy, flourishing life. And you're saying that that might not be that useful.

00:18:04.340 Well, I'm saying generally that it's a technical problem in some sense that

00:18:08.280 there's an endless number of pathways that can be derived from any set of empirical facts.

00:18:14.200 And so, I mean, here's an example. I mean, should you spend more money on discovering a cure for

00:18:20.020 cancer or on educating university students? Well, in some sense, the question is so complex that no

00:18:27.140 matter how many facts you gather, you're never going to get an answer to it, because the answer

00:18:31.340 depends on how many variables you're willing to put in the equation. And there's an endless number of

00:18:35.840 them. And most decisions in life are like that. And so, you can't rely on facts to guide you. It

00:18:41.760 doesn't mean you should ignore them. They set parameters. But in my estimation, there's a domain

00:18:47.020 of factual knowledge, and that would be the domain of the objective world that's studied empirically.

00:18:52.500 And there's a domain of moral knowledge, and that's knowledge about how to conduct yourself in the

00:18:57.300 world. And that's the world of value. And it's in that world. That world includes emotions and

00:19:02.600 motivations and the subjective states that characterize our existence. And in that world,

00:19:08.520 those things are the fundamental realities. Like, from the perspective of the mythological,

00:19:13.520 I would say there's nothing more real than pain. You know, from the material perspective,

00:19:18.580 there's nothing more real than matter. But pain is what matters most. And even the word matter is an

00:19:24.000 interesting word, because you have, on the one hand, the matter that everything is made of. And then,

00:19:28.280 on the other hand, you have what matters, and how it matters. And that's the world of what's

00:19:33.000 important. And that's different, but it still matter. And in the mythological world, what matters

00:19:40.440 is what's important. The world is made out of what matters, not out of matter. It requires a very

00:19:45.180 different orientation. It requires an orientation that also starts with the assumption that meaning

00:19:51.140 is primary, rather than matter. So, this is where phenomenology comes in, right?

00:19:56.860 Right.

00:19:57.140 That's what phenomenology is the study of, what matters.

00:19:59.840 Yes, exactly. And I would say the viewpoint that I've been developing, although it has parallels with

00:20:06.040 that work of Heidegger, Martin Heidegger, although I came across Heidegger well into the development of

00:20:11.560 these ideas, but the parallelism is quite striking. Heidegger was also interested in trying to

00:20:16.920 lay out a map for the world of human experience.

00:20:20.320 So, you mentioned some of these big archetypes that we see throughout history. There's chaos,

00:20:25.080 and then there's order. And then in between, you mentioned there's the hero who…

00:20:30.780 Or the adversary, yeah.

00:20:32.100 Yeah, the adversary.

00:20:32.680 The individual, anyways. And yeah, so the chaotic domain has two elements. There's a positive element

00:20:37.380 and a negative element. That's usually symbolized using female iconography and representations. And 1.00

00:20:44.060 it's because new things come out of the unknown. And so, there's an inappropriate analogous,

00:20:50.740 there's an appropriate analogy at work there. It's the defining characteristic of the feminine is 1.00

00:20:55.680 that the feminine is that out of which new forms arise. And the unknown is like that. And that's why

00:21:01.160 we have Mother Nature, for example. You know, Mother Nature is what you go to investigate to discover

00:21:06.420 new things. And it's Mother Nature because Mother Nature gives rise to new things. And there's a terrible

00:21:12.920 element of chaos and the unknown, and that's the part of the unknown that will kill you or hurt you.

00:21:18.300 And there's a benevolent element, and that's the part that will provide you with new information

00:21:22.580 and new life if you're fortunate enough to… Well, if you're fortunate enough to begin with,

00:21:26.960 but also if you're brave and honest and courageous enough to confront the unknown properly.

00:21:32.060 And then in the orderly domain, there's two elements too, and that's usually masculine. That's the

00:21:36.480 great father, the tyrant, and the wise king. And the tyrant is that part of the social world,

00:21:41.860 the patriarchy, let's say, that oppresses and crushes you while it simultaneously develops

00:21:47.240 and protects you. And you're subject to both of those elements continually. And part of your

00:21:53.660 existential problem is how do you transform the tyranny into benevolent protection? Or how do you

00:22:01.020 transform the terror of nature into the benevolence of the natural world and the unknown? And that's

00:22:07.680 the goal of the hero is to do that, to figure out how to balance those constituent elements of

00:22:12.840 experience. And is this hero archetype, is it also masculine? It's masculine, but that doesn't make

00:22:19.080 it male. Right. Because it's a symbolic language, you know, and it's hard to say precisely why it's

00:22:27.160 masculine. I would say it's likely masculine because the feminine archetype is associated with 0.96

00:22:33.360 birth. And it's such a dominant, you know, birth and new life is, and destruction for that matter is

00:22:41.380 such a dominant element of that archetypal representation that something had to be

00:22:47.800 formulated as its opposite. It seems like the hero is kind of a way, it's also a sort of a masculine

00:22:53.320 mother, right? Because like you go into the chaos to birth something new oftentimes. I don't know.

00:22:59.860 Yeah, well, it's you, it, you, I would say that's not, it's not feminine because when you go in, 0.98

00:23:06.540 you go in as an active agent, as a fertilizing agent, let's say, because let's say that when you

00:23:13.500 encounter something unknown, it's, it's the a priori structures that you bring to bear on that, that

00:23:18.440 give rise to the new thing. So, I mean, if you look at, look at the movie Sleeping Beauty, for example,

00:23:25.220 so the female, the feminine is unconscious in that movie, that's Sleeping Beauty, and

00:23:31.540 she's unconscious because she couldn't tolerate the trauma of puberty and sexual development,

00:23:36.700 essentially. And that's, the reason for that is because her parents overprotected her, right?

00:23:41.120 If you remember at the beginning of Sleeping Beauty, the king and queen who've been waiting a

00:23:45.060 long time for their daughter decide not to invite Maleficent to the christening. And Maleficent is

00:23:50.460 the evil queen, right? She's the negative element of nature and the world. And if you don't 0.98

00:23:54.940 invite the negative, if you don't allow the negative element of life in the world into

00:23:58.620 your child's environment, then you overprotect them and make them weak. And then when they

00:24:02.700 grow up and face the inevitable confrontations of adolescence and adulthood, they deeply desire

00:24:10.080 to remain unconscious or to become unconscious again. That can manifest itself as in suicidal

00:24:15.640 ideation, for example. So, Sleeping Beauty falls unconscious when she's pricked by, when blood

00:24:21.080 emerges when she's pricked. And it's just after she, you know, she falls in love naively with the

00:24:26.040 prince and then that collapses and she can't tolerate the catastrophe of existence. So, she 0.77

00:24:31.300 falls unconscious and something has to rescue her. And it's the hero, it's the prince. Now, you can read

00:24:37.420 that as an external prince because to some degree in a woman's life, the adult feminine in her is 1.00

00:24:44.240 awakened by the man that she chooses. So, you can read it as a love story, but you can also read it

00:24:50.460 as a story of individual development because what the woman is going to use to call herself out of

00:24:55.760 unconsciousness is her own masculine propensity to develop her consciousness and to move forthrightly

00:25:01.960 out into the world. I mean, these archetypal stories can generally be read at multiple levels

00:25:07.180 of analysis simultaneously. They apply across multiple domains. So...

00:25:11.240 So, that's why you have to, you mentioned, I think, in Maps and Meaning, you have to

00:25:14.840 take a Jungian circumambulation around these stories, right? You just kind of walk around

00:25:20.340 and around and around them because you can get different perspectives depending on where you're

00:25:24.380 at.

00:25:25.000 Yeah. So, well, and you have to do that in the world as well. You want to push yourself out

00:25:28.600 against the world in as many ways as you can because that forces you to develop, you know? And

00:25:32.960 there's, that's partly because as you push yourself out against the world and learn new things,

00:25:38.880 you become more and more informed, right? By the information that you're generating in your

00:25:45.340 active encounter with the world. But also, we know that when you put yourself in new situations,

00:25:51.520 new genes turn on in your nervous system and they code for new proteins. And so,

00:25:56.580 you exist a lot in potential and the way that, and you need to actualize that potential in order to

00:26:02.400 become all that you need to be in order to prevail in the world. And the way that you do that is by

00:26:07.700 pushing yourself out against new unknown things and forcing your own transformation in the face of

00:26:14.440 those challenges. And the idea is that if you do that, let's say, religiously, then you can turn

00:26:20.620 yourself into a character that has enough power and strength to prevail in the tragic conditions of

00:26:27.060 life without becoming embittered and cruel and malevolent. And I mean, again, to me, this,

00:26:34.540 the longer I study this, I suppose, the more self-evident it seems to me. Life is very difficult.

00:26:40.420 It will challenge you to your core. You need to be able to withstand that challenge or you'll

00:26:46.400 warp and deteriorate. How do you develop yourself to withstand that challenge? You take on

00:26:54.340 responsibilities and challenges voluntarily and strengthen yourself. How else could you possibly

00:27:00.920 do it? I mean, you could hide, but there's no hiding. You can't hide from illness and death.

00:27:06.720 You can't hide from loneliness or pain. It's not possible. And if you retreat, then the things that

00:27:13.580 chase you just grow larger. So you have to put yourself together. And you do that by seeing what's

00:27:22.480 right in front of you, regardless of whether or not you like it, and encouraging yourself to master

00:27:29.560 what you see voluntarily and to extend yourself and to stretch yourself out constantly. And you do that

00:27:35.960 with your eyes open. And you do that with your speech and thinking carefully monitored and regulated

00:27:43.060 so that you don't corrupt yourself with unnecessary ignorance and delusion, because that will just

00:27:49.580 hurt you when the crisis comes.

00:27:52.420 So this is why these, and then it goes back to why these meta-narratives, these archetypes

00:27:56.820 exist. They instruct us on how to do just that, right? How to face chaos, how to face tragedy,

00:28:05.320 because they provide examples. They set the pattern, right?

00:28:08.220 Yeah, they set the pattern. Yeah. And the issue is how do you manifest the pattern in your own life?

00:28:13.720 That's the crucial issue, is how do you realize the archetype in your own life? And you do that in part by

00:28:20.880 accepting the struggles of your being, or perhaps even welcoming them, and subjugating yourself to them,

00:28:30.860 and opening yourself up to the possibility of radical transformation in the face of your errors and

00:28:41.420 false. That's humility, I suppose. You're not all that you could be. Well, you might say,

00:28:48.760 well, why does that matter? Well, that's, it's easy to answer that. If you're not all that you can be,

00:28:54.820 you will suffer more than you have to, and so will the people around you. And you might say,

00:28:59.420 well, I don't care about that. It's like, well, that's unlikely, because virtually everyone cares

00:29:05.240 about their own pain. But even if you have got to the point where you don't care about that,

00:29:10.300 that's certainly nothing to be happy about or proud of. It's a catastrophe.

00:29:15.400 You have to become who you are, right? According to Pindar, quoted by Nietzsche.

00:29:20.360 Well, that's associated with Jung's idea of the self, is that, and that, one of the ways to

00:29:26.760 understand that, because it seems like a very strange pronouncement, is that you are what you are,

00:29:33.360 but you're also what you could be, which is a strange thing, right? Because that's no more than

00:29:38.900 to say that you are characterized by an indefinite amount of potential. So you are what you are, and

00:29:45.300 you are the potential that you are. That's a very paradoxical statement, because it's not obvious

00:29:52.240 how you can be something that's potential. Because potential isn't being, it's the possibility of

00:29:58.440 becoming, but be that as it may. We're stuck with it. It's a paradox, but we're stuck with it.

00:30:06.000 The goal of authenticity, from an existential perspective, is to pursue that which you could be,

00:30:12.000 so that you can flesh yourself out, so you can burn off what about you is dead and outdated,

00:30:18.000 and so that you can allow what could be to come to life. And the deep archetypal idea is that,

00:30:25.980 to the degree that you do that, you redeem yourself and you redeem the world around you.

00:30:30.760 And I believe that that's, again, I don't think that that's metaphysics. It seems to be the most

00:30:36.900 practical of truths. And the archetype, for example, the hero archetype is, you could say what it is,

00:30:44.220 is the, it's that which you find admirable. That which you find spontaneously admirable

00:30:50.980 is the pathway to the archetype. And you see, so people might tell stories about interesting and

00:30:59.260 admirable people. And the reason they tell them is because they admire those people. And when they

00:31:04.480 talk about them, other people listen. And so then you could imagine, well, if you distilled what people

00:31:10.100 find most interesting and admirable about others, what you would end up at the end of the process of

00:31:16.660 distillation would be something like an archetypal story. It would be something like the story of

00:31:20.820 Buddha, or it would be something like the story of Christ.

00:31:23.940 Yeah. The other one that came to mind was the Gita, the Bhagad Gita. I'm reading that lately. And

00:31:27.900 that's sort of the main, the main message of that. It's like, you can only be who you are and you're

00:31:32.160 to live, to have, what's it, Dharma, you have to become who you are.

00:31:37.160 What have you learned about that concretely? What, that's changed the way that you're acting?

00:31:42.000 Oh man, changed the way that, I don't know. It's definitely had an impact on me. I don't

00:31:46.460 know if it's gotten to the point where it's changed the way I'm acting. Maybe not being

00:31:50.160 afraid of, you know, following that inner voice, right? I mean, kind of what Thoreau or Emerson

00:31:57.780 would say, because they were, they were kind of Jungian in a way, be proto-Jungians.

00:32:04.200 Well, I guess it's, you can be afraid, but you can't stop.

00:32:07.740 Yeah.

00:32:08.660 That's the thing, because the fear is justifiable, but it's not, that doesn't make it a sufficient

00:32:17.900 reason to retreat and stop. There's no retreat in life. That's the thing. There might be periods

00:32:24.920 that, where you can pull back and rest, but because we're surrounded by the unknown and the

00:32:32.320 unexpected, and because we're characterized by the consequences of our ultimate ignorance,

00:32:39.060 and because we're finite, there's no stepping back. You either move forward voluntarily or

00:32:47.880 degenerate. Those are your options, and the degeneration process is, what we said already,

00:32:53.320 it's, in its worst aspects, it's a voyage to hell. And you see the consequences of that,

00:33:02.400 because people who have become particularly embittered by life, also become, often become

00:33:11.540 very cruel, and do everything they can to make whatever could be good, bad, merely for the sake

00:33:19.040 of spite and revenge. To me, that's in large part the story of the 20th century. I mean, we had these

00:33:25.440 great ideological battles in the 20th century, and terrible catastrophes as a consequence of the

00:33:34.660 formation of a variety of different ideological stances. But even those ideologies were turned

00:33:41.620 into something immensely destructive by the malevolent actions and the cowardly inactions of the people

00:33:54.480 who held the ideologies. Well, let's tie how your study of ideology goes into this. So, does ideology

00:34:03.780 rise up when people either ignore or reject these meta-narratives you've been talking about? 0.67

00:34:10.480 Yes, because the ideologies are parasites on the underlying religious structure. They tell you

00:34:16.000 part of the archetypal story, but not all of it. They just tell you enough of it to grip you if you're

00:34:23.360 not situated properly in the metaphysical landscape. It's like an occult indoctrination. And they tell

00:34:33.640 enough of the story so that the telling has religious power, it has religiously compelling power.

00:34:40.480 And that pulls people into the ideology. But what also pulls them into it is the desire for them to

00:34:45.940 escape their own individual responsibility. Because if you adopt an ideology, then you're part of a

00:34:51.620 group, and the group becomes responsible, not you. And that can be a great relief, because,

00:34:58.860 well, who wants the responsibility? Now, I mean, what I've learned from reading people like

00:35:04.300 Carl Jung and Alexander Solzhenitsyn and Viktor Frankl and people who wrote deeply about what

00:35:10.060 happened in the 20th century was that you are deeply responsible for the course of your life,

00:35:16.700 but also to an indeterminate degree for the course of the lives of the people around you,

00:35:21.760 your family, and then your broader community. That's on you, man. And that means that when you make a

00:35:27.920 moral error, the consequences of that error ripple out beyond you and add to the pathology,

00:35:35.140 well, of your family and your friends, but also of your society. And it's something that people want

00:35:40.780 to shrink away from, because it's bad enough to be responsible on your own for your mistakes,

00:35:45.560 but to also understand that your moral insufficiency corrupts the world. Well,

00:35:51.260 that's a hell of a thing to come to terms with. Right. And so, I mean, this is exactly what Nietzsche

00:35:58.360 predicted, what happened in the 20th century with the death of God. A lot of people misunderstand

00:36:03.720 Nietzsche, where he kind of celebrates the death of God. He's actually saying, no, this is actually

00:36:06.740 really terrible. Yeah, no, he wasn't celebrating it. That's for sure. This is terrible, because here's

00:36:11.360 what's going to happen. We'll never find enough water to wash away the blood. Right. And so, as you

00:36:15.800 said that these ideologies, what they often do is they'll, they tell half of the story of the

00:36:21.520 archetype. So, I'm guessing with, you know, in the 20th century, Nazism really focused on that

00:36:27.740 father archetype, but on the negative part, like extreme order. And then maybe communism was,

00:36:34.500 what was that possibly, the ideology? Well, with the Nazis, the basic archetype was the positive 0.82

00:36:41.640 father, right? But ignoring the tyrant. So, right, because the social world, you can characterize

00:36:50.800 as wise king and tyrant. And the Nazi call was, well, we'll be, join us and the wise father will

00:36:59.080 rule forever. Well, but there was no discussion of the tyrant. And there was no discussion of the

00:37:05.160 abdication of individual responsibility. And so, everything that was ignored played itself out.

00:37:12.560 Because it wasn't, you can't ignore the tyrant. And you can't give yourself over to the great father

00:37:18.260 without sacrificing your soul. And if you sacrifice your soul, then the probability that you'll become

00:37:24.200 corrupt is 100%. And once you're corrupt, you'll start to do terrible things.

00:37:28.640 And then with communism, because like that, you really focus a lot on that with, you know,

00:37:32.140 Solzhenitsyn talks a lot about that. And you really refer to his work. I mean,

00:37:35.520 what was going on there archetypically? Well, the original diagnosis with the,

00:37:39.540 with the, with the communist revolutionaries is that what they were confronting was only the

00:37:44.560 tyrannical father. You know, and that if you can just do away with the tyrannical father,

00:37:49.080 then everything, then people will all of a sudden be living in, you know, a harmonious utopia.

00:37:54.700 It's to blame everything on the tyrannical father, which is exactly what's happening.

00:37:59.080 That's exactly the message that the radical left is pushing forward,

00:38:02.000 in our society is that all the corruption of the world is a consequence of the tyrannical father,

00:38:07.540 but it's not true or it's half true. It's less than half true because there are other archetypes

00:38:13.820 that have to be considered. No, there's no gratitude in the radical left because the radical left says

00:38:18.800 the patriarchy is to blame for everything. It's like, well, you know, how about flush toilets?

00:38:25.480 How about central heating? How about clean water? How about reliable electricity? That's all part of

00:38:32.200 the tyranny, is it? They just take all that for granted. It's not a good idea to take all that for

00:38:39.760 granted. And then you can also say we're seeing that too with the radical right. It's kind of the

00:38:43.720 rebirth of the, focusing on the father, but ignoring the tyrant.

00:38:49.180 Right.

00:38:49.640 So yeah, ideology.

00:38:50.320 You know, you could say the radical left says the great father's all bad and the radical right says

00:38:54.480 the great father's all good because they can't tolerate the conflict. The fact that

00:39:00.520 both elements have to be considered simultaneously and they're both equally desirous of abandoning

00:39:09.900 individual responsibility, which is the under, you know, that's the real underground motivation for

00:39:15.920 the polarization. Escape from individual responsibility.

00:39:20.620 Escape from freedom. Wasn't that Eric Fromm?

00:39:22.480 That's Eric Fromm, yeah.

00:39:23.540 Yeah. So what, I think what you're arguing then is that instead of, that the response to these

00:39:29.400 ideologies is embracing these meta-narratives or looking at them again, because they set the

00:39:35.700 pattern for us on how to live. But so here's the question, like, how do you make that case to a

00:39:41.400 post-secular world? Because like a lot of people just say, look at these stories like, you know,

00:39:45.260 Tiamat and Marduk or the, you know, the Christ story and the Bible stories and say, well, that's just,

00:39:51.640 you know, those are nice stories, but I'm not going to take it seriously. How do you, what's the case

00:39:56.800 you make? Say, no, actually...

00:39:58.300 Well, what are you going to take seriously then? You're going to take nothing seriously. Well,

00:40:02.040 good luck with that because serious things are coming your way. And so if you're not prepared

00:40:06.380 for them by an equal metaphysical seriousness, they will flatten you. So you can be dismissive

00:40:13.740 with regards to wisdom, but that doesn't protect you from the coming catastrophe. And the way I deal

00:40:19.800 with it on a one-to-one basis generally is to get people to talk about their lives. People know

00:40:25.040 perfectly well that they need meaning in their lives. And let's say the atheist skeptical types,

00:40:29.880 who I have a fair bit of, like, respect for, I understand where they're coming from, they can't

00:40:35.760 formulate a straightforward identification with, say, a religious creed because it conflicts with

00:40:40.740 their rationality. It's partly because the more fundamentalist types on the religious end

00:40:45.600 insist in their metaphysical ignorance that biblical stories are scientific theories,

00:40:51.160 which they're not. I would say, look, if your life is working out for you and it's richly meaningful

00:40:56.700 and you're well-oriented and all of that, well then, good for you. But if you're floundering and

00:41:02.320 uncertain and unable to tolerate the suffering that's part and parcel of your being, then you may

00:41:08.080 need to do some serious thinking about your metaphysical presuppositions. And life is a serious

00:41:13.520 business in my estimation. So, you have to be serious about what, how you think and what you

00:41:18.980 think and how you act. There's just no way around it. Right. Because if you ignore it, what you're

00:41:23.360 going to get are ideologies and that's just going to destroy you. Yeah, well, or nihilism.

00:41:27.460 Or nihilism, right. And, you know, as soon as, the problem with nihilism is, well, if everything's

00:41:33.280 cakes and roses, well, maybe you can tolerate it, but it's not going to see you through your father's

00:41:38.380 descent into Alzheimer's disease, I can tell you that. You have to be metaphysically situated

00:41:43.160 because life is a tragedy. And there's elements of malevolence to it as well, which is also

00:41:48.080 something that's well worth pointing out. You know, people may be cynical enough to say, well,

00:41:53.500 good is relative. And so, I'm not required to pursue any specific direction because all are as

00:41:59.720 good as any. It's like, well, you wait till someone comes along who has the increase of your suffering

00:42:05.420 firmly in mind. You'll be naked in front of them because metaphysical naivety provides you with

00:42:12.020 zero protection against malevolence. Like, it opens you up to tragedy. That's bad enough. But

00:42:17.540 malevolence is a whole different thing. And perhaps you'll be fortunate and get through your life without

00:42:21.900 feeling the dread touch of the truly malevolent, but it's highly unlikely. And unless you're prepared

00:42:28.200 metaphysically, when that touch comes, it will destroy you. It'll take you apart. It's one thing not to

00:42:35.240 believe in good. It's a lot more difficult not to believe in evil, especially when it makes itself

00:42:39.440 manifest in front of you.

00:42:40.840 And I mean, I guess that going back to your clinical work, I mean, you mentioned earlier that a lot of

00:42:45.000 the problems you see with your patients isn't so much mental illness, you know, though some of them

00:42:50.700 have it, but it's just they don't have that metaphysical or existential bearing. So, they just go

00:42:56.320 through life feeling, I don't know, just an enemy or I don't know what people in the 19th century call it

00:43:02.400 neurostenia or something. I don't know.

00:43:03.800 Well, they've been hit, usually, you know, something terrible has happened to them in their

00:43:07.440 life. They've lost their job or their career or they're part of their family or they've had a

00:43:12.000 terrible divorce or they've been visited by illness or they've had a confrontation with someone who

00:43:17.340 truly wished them harm. So, they've had a confrontation with malevolence and, you know,

00:43:21.920 and that will exacerbate any proclivities they might have to a given physical or mental illness.

00:43:27.000 But often the problems are purely existential. It's like they're swamped by the reality of their

00:43:33.880 existence. And a lot of the clinical endeavor is the search for metaphysical foundations that are

00:43:40.160 firm enough so that in chaotic and in chaotic times when malevolence threatens, you can still stay

00:43:46.980 oriented and upright. A lot of that has to do with strengthening your own character. And you do that

00:43:51.760 by confronting the challenges that are there, by establishing your aims, by confronting the

00:43:56.580 challenges that present themselves, and by attempting to carefully and accurately and truthfully

00:44:03.000 articulate your being.

00:44:05.540 You mentioned in several of your interviews and in your YouTube channel that about 80 to 90% of

00:44:09.740 your audience is male, which I thought was interesting.

00:44:12.520 It's more than that on YouTube.

00:44:13.880 Okay. Because it's interesting because psychology, I don't know, I mean, that's not even what you're

00:44:17.820 doing. Maybe that's why it is. Because like psychology typically attracts more women than men. 1.00

00:44:22.120 Yes.

00:44:22.840 So, what do you think is going on there? Why do you think men are keyed in

00:44:26.460 to what you're doing, exploring these archetypes and these metanarratives?

00:44:29.940 Because I'm distinguishing between arbitrary power and competence, because I'm talking to

00:44:35.260 people about responsibility instead of rights. Like when men mature and become men, when young

00:44:40.520 men mature and become men, it isn't power that accrues to them, it's competence. And the problem

00:44:46.500 with the narrative that grips our culture at the moment is that we fail to make a distinction

00:44:50.380 between power and competence. Power is just that I can hurt you and therefore I dominate.

00:44:55.520 Competence is that I have status because I'm offering to myself and to other people something

00:44:59.900 that they voluntarily regard as with value, of value. And my invitation to young men is to become

00:45:07.860 competent, to forego power. Power is the tactic used by the incompetent to gain status. Competence is

00:45:14.540 the tool used by the morally oriented to accrue authority and do good things in the world.

00:45:21.220 Well, that's a noble call. And the only way out of the tragedy of existence is to follow the noble

00:45:28.240 call. And young men, they need to hear that because the alternative is something like hell. And I don't

00:45:34.540 say that lightly. I mean, we already went through the 20th century. We know where the ideologies end,

00:45:40.460 lead. We know where nihilism goes. And people say, well, I don't know how to stop being nihilistic.

00:45:46.320 Well, that's what I'm trying to help people understand. And nihilism is terrible. It's a

00:45:52.080 disease of the soul. And all it does is call forth compensatory ideologies. You know, you might say

00:45:58.000 better to be nihilistic than to be possessed by an ideology, but it's just, it's one feeds the other.

00:46:03.800 There has to be something, there has to be another way. And there is. The other way is to identify

00:46:09.220 with the mythological hero, to take up arms against the adversary who wishes that everything

00:46:15.340 would merely cease, and perhaps in the most horrible way possible, to struggle against the

00:46:20.720 tyranny of the state, to put protective walls up against the catastrophe of the natural world,

00:46:27.700 and to walk the proper line between chaos and order.

00:46:30.320 And that's where studying those myths can come in handy, because they've set the pattern for you.

00:46:35.540 That's what, that's the, that's the world they lay out. And everyone knows it. And we know it

00:46:40.340 because we go watch stories. We watch movies. We read novels. We play video games. They're all based,

00:46:46.120 they all have the same underlying phenomenological world at their heart.

00:46:50.560 Well, I'm curious, for those who are interested, they're like, this sounds great. I want to pursue

00:46:54.140 this more. Are there particular works that you recommend? Like, do you have like a reading list

00:46:58.780 I can send people to? Because I think a lot of-

00:47:00.440 Yeah, go to jordanbpeterson.com. There's a reading list there.

00:47:03.980 That's fantastic. Yeah, one of the things I've done in my own life is,

00:47:07.100 after listening to your lectures, you use St. George and the Dragon

00:47:10.940 quite a bit, refer to it. I bought a picture book for my son. We've been reading that. It's

00:47:15.920 become his favorite book.

00:47:17.280 Oh, good.

00:47:18.520 He loves it. He absolutely loves it.

00:47:20.380 Yeah, front the dragon, get the gold and the girl. 0.97

00:47:23.360 Right. And the other one he likes a lot is The Odyssey, which I think there's a ton of

00:47:29.040 myths and meta-narratives in there on how to live with chaos. So, he loves that one too.

00:47:34.660 Great. How old is your son?

00:47:36.180 He's six. He'll be seven in October.

00:47:38.600 Yeah, well, it's great. You've got a chance there to help him, to encourage him, which is

00:47:43.400 what a father should do, right?

00:47:45.020 Right.

00:47:45.440 To encourage, not to empower, that pathological word. To encourage, to say, the world is a

00:47:51.980 terrible place, but you are enough to master it. That's what every young man needs to know.

00:47:58.060 And that's what a lot of men who probably never heard that as a young man need to know too.

00:48:02.320 Yeah, they're dying for it. And they're turning to terrible things as a substitute.

00:48:07.220 They're turning to ideology.

00:48:09.140 Yeah. Well, that's what beckons as a substitute.

00:48:12.400 Or the sad one is opioids, right? I think there's sort of an archetype going on there,

00:48:17.380 right? I just want to cease existing.

00:48:19.200 Yeah, well, that's the comforts of unconsciousness.

00:48:21.420 Right.

00:48:22.260 Alcohol does the same thing.

00:48:24.020 You can't do that. Well, Jordan, this has been a great conversation. There's so much

00:48:28.700 more we could talk about, but where can people go to learn? You mentioned Jordan B. Peterson.

00:48:32.620 Anywhere else people can learn more about what you're doing?

00:48:34.700 My YouTube channel. You know, I just finished a 12-part series on the psychological significance

00:48:40.380 of the biblical stories. I only got about two-thirds of the way through Genesis, but I think

00:48:45.160 people might find that useful. I have hundreds of lectures online. You can dive in anywhere,

00:48:50.500 really. If you're interested in this sort of thing, I see it as the alternative. I laid it out

00:48:55.660 originally when I started working on these ideas as the alternative to ideological possession. And

00:49:00.800 that's become even more crucial in recent years as the ideologies raise their ugly heads again,

00:49:07.060 yet again.

00:49:07.840 Well, Jordan, thank you so much for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure.

00:49:10.980 Thanks for the invitation.

00:49:12.540 My guest today was Jordan B. Peterson. He's a clinical psychologist at the University of Toronto.

00:49:16.840 You can find all his work at jordanbpeterson.com. He has links to his YouTube lectures, his lectures

00:49:22.180 that he gave on the biblical myths. You can find information about his podcast there and also his

00:49:27.260 self-authoring program. It's pretty cool. You should check it out. Also check out our show notes

00:49:30.760 at aom.is slash Peterson, where you can find links to resources, where you can delve deeper into this

00:49:35.620 topic.

00:49:45.220 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,

00:49:49.600 make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. If you enjoy the

00:49:53.180 show, have gotten something out of it while you've been listening, I'd appreciate if you take one minute

00:49:56.320 to give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher. It helps us out a lot. And thank you to everyone who has

00:49:59.700 given us a review already. As always, thank you for your continued support. Until next time,

00:50:03.400 this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.

The Art of Manliness - August 31, 2017

#335： Exploring Archetypes With Jordan B. Peterson

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