The Art of Manliness - #350： Peak Performance — Elevate Your Game and Avoid Burnout

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast when you train

00:00:18.840 your body you actually don't get stronger while you're lifting weights you get stronger after

00:00:23.280 your training session is over and during your recovery period for your muscles to fully adapt

00:00:27.440 and recover during this recovery period you need plenty of food and get plenty of sleep so to get

00:00:31.680 really strong you need to take your recovery as serious as you take your training here's the thing

00:00:35.880 what's true for the body is true for the mind as well at least that's what my guests today argue

00:00:40.200 the names are brad stolberg and steve magnus and they're the co-authors of the book peak performance

00:00:44.300 elevate your game avoid burnout and thrive with a new science of success today on the show brad and

00:00:49.180 steve share how the respective backgrounds and elite running and business consulting top them the

00:00:52.860 importance of rest and recovery from brain work we begin our discussion on how the american ethos

00:00:57.280 of 24 7 grind and hustle actually hindered performance in school and work we then dig

00:01:02.020 into the science of burnout what it is how it feels and why it happens and then brad and steve share how

00:01:07.140 you can start incorporating recovery periods into your intellectual life that will allow your psyche

00:01:11.620 to get stronger and more resilient if you've been feeling burnt out from work or school or if you

00:01:15.660 simply want to perform better this episode is for you after the show's over check out the show notes

00:01:19.820 at aom.is slash peak performance

00:01:22.480 all right brad stolberg steve magnus welcome to the show great to be on it thanks for having us

00:01:32.180 so you guys just published a book together peak performance elevate your game avoid burnout and

00:01:37.320 thrive with a new science of success uh before we get into this because it's about uh workplace how to

00:01:43.600 how to avoid work burnout in the workforce uh you guys have some interesting backgrounds uh one of

00:01:50.100 you is a is a coach for distance runners um the other one who writes about human performance so you

00:01:55.280 guys keep brad start off maybe with you your background and then steve and then how you two

00:02:00.000 got together to write this book sure so right out of undergraduate school i went to work for the large

00:02:06.020 international consulting firm mckinsey and company and i absolutely loved it i was a total pusher

00:02:11.400 type a personality really quite ambitious probably a slightly fragile ego too which is a dangerous

00:02:17.100 combination to turn someone into a workaholic so um i threw myself into the work and and very

00:02:24.020 quickly ramped up and started working 80 to 90 hour weeks and it wasn't really the fault of mckinsey

00:02:28.900 and company i mean granted they push people but i was diving in well beyond what i had to and it was

00:02:34.420 great for about a year i was completely dialed into my work really thriving felt on top of the world

00:02:40.220 was advising ceos of fortune 500 companies at like the age of 22 so i thought i was in a pretty

00:02:46.620 good spot but about a year into that into that experience i just started to feel really burnt out

00:02:53.480 so emotionally kind of losing motivation and a little bit apathetic asking myself what am i doing

00:02:58.580 with my life and then also physically so struggling to sleep even in the six to seven hours i was

00:03:03.960 formally sleeping struggling with sleep cold hands and feet so really just kind of this this culmination

00:03:10.340 of physical and emotional symptoms made me step back and realize something's wrong like this isn't

00:03:14.760 sustainable and the irony is most of my projects at mckinsey and company were in the health care

00:03:20.260 industry so here i am advising health care companies on what to do and i'm not very healthy myself

00:03:26.180 so um that led me to make a good realization i guess at that point in my life that this just this path

00:03:32.440 was not sustainable as it was um so i decided to uh to go back to graduate school and of all things

00:03:38.920 study public health and it was in graduate school while studying public health that i became really

00:03:43.560 interested not just in the prevention of disease but what it means to thrive and in particularly

00:03:48.120 what it means to perform at a really high level kind of like i was doing for that first year but how

00:03:53.040 can someone do that and sustain it so then ever since public health school about five six years ago

00:03:58.840 um i've been writing about health and the science of human performance and that's where i am today

00:04:03.320 awesome and steve yeah it's funny our stories are actually kind of similar pretty similar but in

00:04:09.720 completely different domains so i grew up as you said i i coached distance running now and but i grew

00:04:15.460 up as a runner myself i uh was a really good runner in high school almost like phenom status so my senior

00:04:22.960 year of high school i was the number one ranked miler in the country for high schoolers number like

00:04:28.760 three or four in the world for under 20 year olds i ran a mile in four minutes and one second which is

00:04:36.340 right off that like magical mystical uh four minute barrier that lives in our sport and um i was running

00:04:44.160 and competing at the highest level so i was running professional track mates as a high school senior

00:04:50.440 and at that point like my world was running like that's all that mattered i was obsessed with it

00:04:57.760 i went to school but i couldn't tell you how i did on grades or anything like that like it didn't matter

00:05:03.600 so my my future um plan was okay i'm gonna go to college i'm gonna compete in the ncaa i'm gonna

00:05:10.660 improve i'm gonna try and win national titles and then clear in my vision was like olympics and let's go

00:05:18.280 for it and given my performances up to that time they were all realistic goals so i did what any

00:05:27.240 athlete who had a desire to run or to compete professionally did and i chose my college university

00:05:34.020 i mean only almost solely based on running so i was obsessed runner performing at a really high level

00:05:42.720 but what happened was i was putting so much into it that i eventually just burned out physically

00:05:52.840 emotionally psychologically i was done i mean the fastest mile i've ever run even after you know six

00:05:59.780 seven years of trying to run faster is as an 18 year old kid in high school which should not happen

00:06:05.860 like no one hits their physical maturity peak as a 18 year old but what got in my what i realized was

00:06:15.380 that i got in my own way and that that drive to succeed that um that motivation that internal

00:06:23.740 motivation to be great was also the thing that eventually led to my downfall because what what hurt me

00:06:31.500 as a athlete and as a person is similar to brad is i was a extreme pusher if i was going to do something

00:06:39.120 like it was going to be 110 it was going to be okay this is the work i need to do i'm going to do more

00:06:45.820 than that and what i we i quickly realized after uh becoming burnout is is that's not sustainable right

00:06:54.100 and you asked about us getting together and i think to write this book and i think that our stories um

00:07:01.720 kind of led us to this connection where we both had performed at a very high level um nationally

00:07:08.620 internationally but we both had this question as we kind of went through our our second phases of life

00:07:16.800 is can you reach that level without having the risk of burnout the drawbacks the mental

00:07:24.580 psychological fatigue um can you do it in a healthy sustainable way so it's kind of funny when

00:07:32.960 when this book project came about um brad sent me an email who i'd gotten to know through his writing

00:07:39.960 uh he sent me an email saying hey i've got this idea of a book book project what do you think

00:07:45.860 and i sent an email back like two minutes later and said oh my gosh man like i'm thinking about

00:07:51.880 the same thing i went through the same thing and here's like 40 pages of notes that i've been

00:07:57.240 keeping in anticipation of doing something on this topic so it was kind of like one of those weird

00:08:03.020 life uh happenstances where it was like all right it's meant to be like let's delve into this thing

00:08:08.600 yeah what i love about the book is you guys take stuff from sports science and you know the stress

00:08:14.760 recovery adaptation cycle we'll get into that a little bit but apply it to the world of you know

00:08:20.060 business or your work life you know brad i'm curious you worked for a pretty high performance

00:08:26.380 consulting firm why do you think it's so important for people in today's economy to learn how to perform

00:08:34.100 at their peak but not just at their peak for you know a short period of time but for the long game

00:08:39.640 so i think it's two things i think the first is around just technology and and in the last 15 years

00:08:49.620 there's been the emergence of all of these technologies i mean just think about like the

00:08:53.500 the growth of smartphones both in their prevalence and what they can do over the last 10-15 years

00:08:59.060 so we're always connected and as a result there's always a temptation to do more work and the irony is

00:09:05.900 all of these devices they were supposed to make it easier to have some work-life balance right like

00:09:10.160 more flexibility but what it really means is that you can just always be working so i think it's more

00:09:15.000 important than ever to to understand the importance of kind of reining yourself in and not consistently

00:09:20.440 working because if you do consistently work it's just a matter of time you're going to end up like

00:09:25.300 i did like steve did um pretty burnt out and if not burnt out then your performance will suffer

00:09:30.480 yet at the same time it's a more competitive economy than ever right the same devices that

00:09:36.200 allow us to work all the time have really kind of opened things up to a global talent pool so it used

00:09:40.920 to be i'm just competing with the people in my community then i'm competing with the people in

00:09:45.000 my state then i'm competing in the people with my country in my country excuse me now almost every

00:09:50.120 industry is international so there's increased competition there are devices that allow us to work

00:09:55.860 all the time so you combine that pressure with the ability to work all the time and the result is a

00:10:01.600 lot of people are feeling burnt out um the literature says that it's something between 40 or 50 percent of

00:10:07.560 people right now are experiencing burnout what is i mean is burnout an actual thing like it's like a

00:10:13.560 psychological diagnosis or is it uh just a way do we describe fatigue what what exactly is burnout

00:10:19.700 because we hear it all the time but is it is an act is it an actual thing yeah so it's a good question

00:10:25.180 so it is an actual thing and it's i i describe it as kind of the tipping point of fatigue so anyone

00:10:30.800 that pushes and works really hard is going to feel fatigue and maybe we'll get into this later but it's

00:10:34.640 actually not a bad thing it's a pretty good thing you can't really grow unless you get fatigued and you

00:10:38.960 push yourself but when you keep on pushing yourself and you don't respect your your mind and your body's

00:10:44.460 need to step back then fatigue spills over into burnout and burnout is more than just feeling tired

00:10:50.280 it's really like a loss of excuse me a complete loss of motivation so there's a big difference

00:10:57.160 between fatigue and apathy i think burnout is almost closer to depression than fatigue and then

00:11:02.000 physiologically um the symptoms of burnout often mirror the symptoms of just stress overload so um like

00:11:08.820 i said in myself cold hands and feet inability to sleep frequent headaches onset of bad anxiety if

00:11:15.600 you've never had that happen before so a whole range of things that are definitely a step further

00:11:21.340 than just being fatigued yeah steve this sounds a lot like overtraining in the world of sports

00:11:26.360 science like that's what burnout like it's like a sort of psychological overtraining yeah exactly and

00:11:32.260 and you know and that's what i think we realized in in doing this book and coming at it from two

00:11:36.820 different angles as my background is in addition to coaching is a as an exercise physiologist so you see

00:11:43.480 all these kind of symptoms and these ideas in the sports science world and you realize hey like that

00:11:48.880 that person over there burning out from you know working 70 80 hour weeks is just the same as like

00:11:55.680 me burning out from lifting too much and um not being in and doing too much conditioning and not being able

00:12:01.760 to sustain it and it's actually kind of funny it's like the um the symptoms mimic each other very well

00:12:09.220 as brad said the apathy the lack of motivation but you can also see things on like a physiological level

00:12:16.060 where where you'll see like either very heightened stress hormones like cortisol through the roof and

00:12:23.400 people are more burnout or the opposite side is they just can't like they can't um get any stress

00:12:30.200 hormones so that when it comes to get like excited to take on the day it's almost like they've they've run

00:12:36.320 out of fuel so they can't get that that natural bump that um allows us to perform at a higher level

00:12:42.140 so as i said earlier the book you guys basically took this uh stress recovery adaptation cycle from

00:12:48.920 the world of sports science and i love it because i'm keyed into that because i i lift weights and so

00:12:53.460 i'm always worried about okay am i adding enough stress am i doing adequate recovery that's how you get

00:12:59.720 stronger is that the cycle for those who aren't familiar with it can you describe like

00:13:03.820 the stress recovery out of like how does that work in say uh running or weight lifting or in sports and

00:13:10.220 how have you guys taken that and applied it to the world of just work so if you think about stress

00:13:16.340 recovery adaptation in sport i think that the easiest way to describe it is to think of how you'd

00:13:21.420 strengthen your biceps muscle on your arm so when you go to the gym if you pick up way too heavy of a

00:13:27.760 weight something that is beyond what you've ever even dreamed of lifting before and you try to lift it

00:13:32.600 odds are you're going to injure yourself that's too much stress now the flip side is if you go to

00:13:39.500 the gym and you pick up like a two or three pound weight something that hardly weighs anything at all

00:13:44.000 you could sit there and curl that thing all day and your bicep's not going to grow it's not going to

00:13:49.520 get stronger that's not enough stress so the first part of making a physiological muscle grow

00:13:54.680 is to find a weight that is the right dose of stress so it should be something that is very

00:13:59.840 challenging takes you damn near close to fatigue but isn't so challenging that you're going to throw

00:14:05.720 out your back or tear your bicep tendon ripping it so then the second part of getting a muscle to grow

00:14:11.200 is how often you stress it so even if i found that sweet spot weight if i lift weights every single day

00:14:17.820 really hard same thing i'm going to get injured i'm going to burn out like literally my muscle is not

00:14:25.200 going to recover in between sessions and it's going to fatigue so what you've got to do is you've not

00:14:30.160 only got to find that right amount of stress but you also have to allow for rest after you stress the

00:14:35.640 muscle so it's really interesting people think that a muscle gets stronger and grows when you're in the

00:14:41.900 gym lifting weights but that's not the case when you're in the gym lifting weight you're actually

00:14:45.900 tearing the muscle down the muscle doesn't get stronger unless you rest so it's while you're sitting on

00:14:51.740 the couch while you're sleeping that's when your physiological growth occurs so you almost want to

00:14:56.780 think of it like lifting the muscle is just or excuse me lifting the weight is just applying a

00:15:01.740 stimulus but that stimulus only has value if you step away and let the muscle recover to grow now what

00:15:08.420 we found is that that same cycle holds true for psychological and cognitive growth so if you think about

00:15:16.740 how creativity works and problem solving what what the research shows is that it follows almost the

00:15:22.700 same exact cycle so you want to immerse yourself in the work that you're doing and that can be reading

00:15:28.880 research um working at the whiteboard you know you name it but the breakthrough moment the breakthrough

00:15:36.180 thoughts they tend not to happen when you're actually working they tend to happen when you step away from the

00:15:40.700 work and that's because your mind it consolidates stores connects information not while you're

00:15:47.400 actively working but when you step away and it's also when your creative engine turns on so i think

00:15:53.100 again the easiest to understand example is probably having an aha moment in the shower so there's a

00:15:59.260 reason this happens because most people have been working throughout the day and thinking on something

00:16:04.000 and then they go shower and the shower allows them to kind of turn off their mind and zone out

00:16:08.760 and it's during that time period where they're zoned out that an aha moment can occur same thing

00:16:13.580 happens with taking a walk waking up from a nap i mean there are all kinds of examples of kind of

00:16:18.600 stressing your mind and then stepping away letting it recover for a bit and then having a breakthrough

00:16:22.920 thought yeah and you mentioned like the recovery is probably the most important part of this process

00:16:28.140 but it's overlooked not just in sports but in the world of work why steve why do you think that is

00:16:34.540 like you've probably seen coached athletes who they're just like and this happened to you it's just

00:16:38.600 go go go go grind grind grind i'm going to do crossfit every day i'm going to train every day

00:16:43.140 uh and then you know brad you see this in in your your work history just go go like why do we have

00:16:50.380 this ethos uh particularly in the united states of just constant grinding right i hate you see those

00:16:55.720 memes on instagram like rise and grind right like what's going on there yeah i think i think you can

00:17:02.860 hit the nail on the head with it it's just in our kind of dna and our ethos right if you look at

00:17:07.680 other countries right particularly some european countries they don't have that same uh demeanor

00:17:14.840 right they still work hard all that other stuff but if you look at for example how many vacation

00:17:21.140 days are there off days are there even things like their lunch breaks they're not you know 15 minutes at

00:17:27.360 the desk they're going to the cafe for two hours you know and if you look at other countries like that

00:17:34.320 that ethos isn't there and i think part of the reason it is in the in the u.s is because we have

00:17:40.700 this idea that to reach the next level to get where we want to be to reach our american dream

00:17:48.720 like it takes work and effort and that is very true like we should be proud that you have to put in

00:17:55.700 the work to get better but on the flip side of that is what generally happens is we obsess over

00:18:03.500 the idea of putting in work and not because it has better outcomes but because we feel more productive

00:18:11.280 right so when i go to when i go to the gym every day i feel like i'm getting better when i stay an hour

00:18:18.480 or two after work um after closing time like i feel like i'm doing work the same thing happens

00:18:24.740 with multitasking right we mentioned in the book like if you look at the science something like

00:18:29.960 98 percent of people cannot multitask like it's just doesn't work in the brain okay so the vast

00:18:37.020 majority of us can't but still if you ask most people like they multitask we're at home on the

00:18:44.080 computer well you know watching tv while talking to our wife or husband right it's always more things

00:18:51.020 than um than we realize and the reason that we choose to do things like that is because it feels

00:18:58.140 like we're getting more things done and i think one of the reasons that we wrote this book and one of

00:19:03.760 the reasons why we tried to shift that emphasis is that rest as brad mentioned earlier is when you

00:19:09.740 grow it's when you get better it's when you adapt so if we can like shift that mindset a little bit

00:19:16.560 then i think we'll see better outcomes than just that sensation of effort yeah the the the one quick

00:19:24.660 thing that i'd also add in in and it's so it's kind of funny it parallels i think meditation in america

00:19:31.720 and steve mentioned like productivity i think that our ethos is so let's be productive so meditation has

00:19:38.600 taken on not as like a deep spiritual contemplative practice but a lot of people are meditating because

00:19:45.200 the end is that they'll be more productive and i think it's kind of the same thing with rest you

00:19:50.620 know in european countries people rest because they enjoy rest but here what i found um in the response

00:19:57.500 to this book and then working with entrepreneurs is that the best way to frame rest is to let someone

00:20:02.560 know that hey rest should be seen as a part of your work right rest is going to make you more

00:20:06.980 productive if you just tell someone to rest because it's going to feel good and it's good for

00:20:10.440 their health they're never going to do it steve's point they're going to be scared that they're

00:20:13.840 sacrificing work but if you have someone understand that it's actually when you step away and when you

00:20:19.600 rest that you're going to do your best thinking and problem solving then all of a sudden rest doesn't

00:20:24.500 become something that's separate from the work it becomes a part of the work and people are more

00:20:28.500 likely to respect it but i think it all just comes back to that kind of productivity that's

00:20:33.160 it's in our ethos yeah that's pretty funny you have to frame rest as work to get americans to

00:20:38.100 to do it bingo it's it's funny and it's sad that we're at this point but whatever works

00:20:43.580 so let's talk about the stress aspect all right so in long distance running right the way you

00:20:49.320 increase stress is intensity going faster or volume the length of running and weight training same

00:20:54.880 thing you can increase the weight or increase the amount of reps you do to add stress how can we

00:21:00.680 increase stress in our job uh where you know week after week so that we're you know contributing

00:21:07.320 to this stress adaptation stress recovery adaptation cycle so i i think it's it's a question that we

00:21:13.960 get asked a lot because it's not as clear-cut as you know i was lifting a 25 pound weight now i'm

00:21:18.960 going to lift a 30 pound weight but if you think about the difference between a 25 pound weight

00:21:23.680 and a 30 pound weight it's really just the next logical step so how i like to think about

00:21:29.580 increasing stress in in a professional or um even just in personal relationships but but in a way

00:21:36.660 that's non-physiological is to ask yourself what am i doing now where do i want to be what skills what

00:21:44.040 capacities do i want to develop where do i want to go in my career and what's the next logical step to

00:21:49.280 get there and then i think another helpful way to really hone in on on on what that next logical step

00:21:56.040 is is it shouldn't be something that you think that if you take it on you're going to succeed 10

00:22:01.620 out of 10 times because that's not that's not going to stimulate growth right that's just kind

00:22:06.400 of sitting there lifting the same weight you've always been lifting now the flip side is if you

00:22:11.340 take on something that makes you so nervous that you can't sleep at night that you feel your pulse in

00:22:16.180 your neck that you constantly are thinking oh my gosh i could fail and if you rate yourself as oh i

00:22:21.400 might only succeed three or four out of 10 times that's not good stress either that's like going

00:22:26.040 from a 25 pound weight to a 50 pound weight it's probably not going to work out so i like to think

00:22:31.340 of it as something that you think that you'll succeed about eight out of 10 times so there's a

00:22:36.020 little bit of uncertainty right like you're just not sure but you think that if you really hone in

00:22:41.560 and and give it your all you'll succeed and that can be taking on a new project at work it can be

00:22:47.220 taking the next step in a personal relationship it can be in my life going from writing articles to

00:22:53.140 writing a book right it's not like i went from like a blog to a book it was a very um methodical

00:22:59.380 progression and and i think that that's the kind of progression that you'd have in the gym you also

00:23:04.360 want to have that kind of progression outside of the gym yeah and steve you guys bring in research

00:23:08.940 from like the flow research from i can't say his name i've like i know there's like a special way you

00:23:13.640 can say nihay chikamisi i don't know anyways the flow guy mihali chikszentmihalyi we had to learn

00:23:19.080 that yeah it's a prerequisite to write a book about this topic right but you guys use that as like that

00:23:23.640 what the activities that engage you in flow that gets you in that flow state that's like you know

00:23:28.820 you're you're you're pushing yourself once you get there so how do you know like what is the how

00:23:34.680 do what are the type of activities that get you into that flow state so it's it's all about what brad

00:23:41.160 just talked about and it's all about challenging right it's about like this balance between

00:23:46.220 challenge and this fear of like can i do it right and in the book we call it taking just manageable

00:23:54.360 challenges right so you only get flow if the stress or the challenge is high enough where it's gonna make

00:24:03.620 you be focused and attuned and attention right you don't get flow by accidentally um getting there

00:24:10.940 in work you don't get flow by hey i'm just gonna go out for a jog and and walk and you know let my

00:24:17.280 mind wander like flow only happens if if there is focus and attention to do that and the only way to

00:24:24.560 get there is if you're challenging yourself on the flip side of that it can't be so challenging

00:24:30.480 that there's no hope of you succeeding right because if there's no hope of you succeeding

00:24:36.340 your mind and your brain's just gonna shut down and be like this is like a failed cause right if i

00:24:42.020 go run a race and i go out way too fast that at the start your brain's just gonna shut you down and

00:24:49.120 fatigue you early right and the same thing happens in in the work environment so it's really about

00:24:54.840 focused on this just manageable challenge idea where you're taking that as brad said that next logical

00:25:01.280 step and the way i like to explain it to people is you could feel you should feel a little bit of

00:25:08.400 that like nervousness right that little bit of that unease and you're you know where shoulders might go

00:25:13.880 up a little bit and you just feel that sensation of like oh man like i can do this but it's gonna be

00:25:20.160 tough to do right and you you also highlight i love how you brought this research um you know struggle

00:25:26.020 is where skill is built so if you feel like you're struggling you're in a good place because that

00:25:31.000 means you're you've reached that you're you're not it's not so bad you can't do the thing but like

00:25:35.020 it's hard and i guess you bring in research with uh math tutors there's certain math tutors that

00:25:40.920 produce students that do better in math compared to other ones and the difference was some math

00:25:46.260 tutors didn't give the answer right away or show how to do it they let their their students struggle a

00:25:51.980 bit with the problem yeah yeah definitely you know and i think that's again if we look at some of

00:25:56.960 societal norms right now is a lot of times as teachers as coaches as um bosses even whenever

00:26:04.640 we see someone struggling like the the feeling of what we need to do is to step in right like i see

00:26:12.060 someone struggling out on the track as a coach like the idea is like oh i better step in and like

00:26:17.280 correct them right away so that they can learn and what the research shows which you just rightly

00:26:22.300 pointed out is that like growth doesn't come when you're given an answer right away right so if i'm

00:26:29.040 struggling on math and then my teacher steps in and says oh here's how you do it here's the answer

00:26:34.420 like that sends a signal to to me and my brain that says oh okay like if i don't know how to do this

00:26:41.420 it's okay like someone's gonna help me out and the reality is to show value to show growth

00:26:47.780 like we need to struggle and comprehend and try and like figure things out in our mind a little bit

00:26:54.680 before our our brain kind of says all right this is of high importance i really need to figure this

00:27:01.240 one out and then if we step in and get the answer that's fine but it's like really having to struggle

00:27:07.640 is where skills are developed so brad i guess this means uh if you're a boss or a manager you need to

00:27:14.520 let your folks flounder a bit before you swoop in and save them yeah it it again you know i keep on

00:27:22.460 going back to that that gym analogy but you don't want your employees um to just be sitting there

00:27:29.500 lifting the three pound weight all day because they're gonna get bored you want to look out for

00:27:33.780 them and make sure they don't pick up the 50 pound weight way too soon but you want to help them find

00:27:38.960 that that that kind of just manageable challenge as steve said that 25 to 35 pound weight and and

00:27:45.040 struggle a little bit before you come in to help um and i think that as a manager it's a lot easier

00:27:51.800 to help than to let someone struggle letting someone struggle takes a lot more guts but that's where growth

00:27:59.400 um that's where growth occurs right and so this also means you have to be willing to accept some mistakes

00:28:04.980 they're they're gonna mess up and you got to be okay with that and because that's how they're gonna

00:28:09.140 learn exactly in in in context is key right if you've got someone working on you know an enormously

00:28:16.120 important initiative that if it fails it's going to be catastrophic for the company then that's

00:28:21.660 probably a time where you want to lean in and you want to kind of stop the struggle bus before it

00:28:26.920 gets too far down the road but there are very few contexts where that's the case and to steve's point

00:28:33.500 about coaches i think the same is true with managers i think that the inclination is often

00:28:36.900 to step in and help too soon and some of the best managers that i've observed they actually do the

00:28:41.800 opposite they're really good at seeing what their employees don't see so they've got the broad view

00:28:46.960 and they can step in if they need to but they restrain themselves and and they let folks struggle

00:28:51.520 um and i think it's more fulfilling for the employees right if you think about what makes for a good

00:28:57.760 workout you feel like you've really exhausted yourself and you're just kind of content after you're

00:29:02.240 like whoo you know that was tough i gave it my all now i can step away and i think that that's

00:29:07.360 also what makes for a happy workplace and also i guess all the flip side also for the employee

00:29:12.620 don't go asking for help right away you know try to figure it out on your own i imagine it's hard

00:29:18.020 for a lot of younger employees who are entering the workforce where they've had someone holding

00:29:22.940 their hand through college with clear instructions what to do and now they're put in a position where

00:29:27.380 everything's are sort of things are sort of nebulous uh there's nuance they have to figure

00:29:31.260 out on their own yeah there's this thing that i love and it's a lot easier to say than to do but i

00:29:36.020 think a really important skill is to be comfortable with being uncomfortable because it's during those

00:29:43.060 times where you're slightly uncomfortable that you grow so you've got to be comfortable in those

00:29:47.420 spaces and and really the only the only way to learn like what's too much discomfort is to try

00:29:53.920 um but if you don't try then you're just gonna end up on this path where you're going through the

00:29:58.660 motions and that to me is you know every bit is as dangerous as burning out because going through

00:30:05.240 the motions that's like what leads to midlife crisis right steve on this topic of becoming

00:30:10.120 comfortable with being uncomfortable you guys also highlight research that shows how our mindset

00:30:14.700 towards stress can influence whether that stress has a has a positive effect a growth effect or a

00:30:21.640 negative effect so what does that research say about our mindset towards stress yeah so we're

00:30:26.420 used to seeing stress as kind of a negative thing like where hey you know i have to go do this big

00:30:32.700 presentation or this big meeting and you know stressing and anxiety is getting in my way like it's a

00:30:39.380 negative it's going to pull me down but what recent research shows which you highlighted is that

00:30:44.820 what actually matters is how we appraise things so as we appraise it as like this is a going to be

00:30:51.920 a negative then what happens is our body follows so our hormonal shift will occur where we might have

00:31:01.260 high stress hormones and cortisol through the roof and all of a sudden like we're in a bad position to

00:31:07.100 perform but the opposite side occurs if as if we see it as um for lack of a better term a positive

00:31:14.800 so as we see this stressful situation as an opportunity to be challenged to grow to see

00:31:22.280 where my limits lie like then what happens is the body follows in a positive direction so instead of

00:31:28.640 you know cortisol going up through the roof to prepare us for that stress we might see like a

00:31:34.580 hormone like testosterone increase a little bit which kind of gives us that maybe a little bit of a

00:31:40.220 needed boost and um aggression to get through that performance and you see this whether it's in the

00:31:47.100 office place whether it's in presentations or whether it's outside on the um athletic field and

00:31:53.480 actually one of my favorite points of this from a coaching standpoint is that a lot of times when we

00:31:59.680 see someone stressed we go up to them and say hey relax calm down it's going to be okay and actually

00:32:06.340 that's like the worst thing in the world you can do because if you think about it if i come up to

00:32:10.860 someone let's say before they're about to compete in a big game and i say hey relax what that person's

00:32:17.380 mind gets the message it receives is that oh my gosh like i must look super stressed and that's gonna

00:32:25.480 hurt my performance so i need to force myself to relax and what happens is if we force ourselves to relax

00:32:32.300 like our body just goes into this cycle of being more and more stressed because we think stress is

00:32:37.560 a negative so in the book we call it um turning anxiety into excitement so it's about shifting our

00:32:45.240 mindset so that well yes you're gonna feel the same sensations that like nervousness that feeling in the

00:32:52.040 shoulders um because it you know it's a stressful time what you should see is that's an opportunity

00:32:58.920 now as i like to tell people where i work with if you start feeling those sensations of stress

00:33:04.360 all that means is your body saying like all right we're about to take our performance to another level

00:33:10.260 like we need to kick in these hormones and get ready like we're feeling this way because um we care

00:33:17.540 and it matters so let's get ready and go to battle and i think perspective here is also huge right i mean

00:33:25.160 if i think about the times in my life when i actually felt most stressed and kind of like down

00:33:31.020 and not in a good spot looking back i grew more from those experiences than any other experiences

00:33:37.480 so it definitely holds true on a micro scale like steve said but i also think on a macro scale so when

00:33:43.440 you're in a moment where you're feeling really stressed it sucks it's awful don't get me wrong

00:33:47.960 and if you can take that perspective and just kind of remind yourself of hey it's like when i've been

00:33:53.160 through tough times when i've been most stressed those are the experience is that have actually

00:33:57.640 led to the most growth just reminding yourself of that can can really help like shift the narrative

00:34:03.360 and then like steve said your your biochemistry your hormones follow yeah and i loved also the

00:34:08.640 research you highlight how you know managing your expectations about challenges can help you get

00:34:13.960 through the challenge so you know steve you talk about runners like having your runners do some

00:34:18.540 self-talk saying yes this is going to be hard yes this is going to suck and somehow that helps them

00:34:23.720 get through the hardness and the suckiness of a of a hard run yeah it's all expectations you know it's

00:34:29.800 funny how the mind works and how i how the mind and body kind of combine and and work together but

00:34:35.800 our as i said like our temptation is almost always to when we're facing something hard is to downplay it

00:34:42.120 right if i have a big presentation and say like hey i've been in this before like this isn't going

00:34:48.540 to be this stressful or if i have a big hard workout a lot of times what you do is you downplay it and

00:34:53.240 you say okay like yeah it's hard but i've done hard things before and i'm going to be okay and what

00:34:59.820 happens is like your your mind uses that like expectation to judge like okay what's the reality of

00:35:07.460 this is like okay i'm self-talking myself down so that this isn't going to be that difficult so then

00:35:13.980 your mind prepares for a thing that isn't that difficult and then when it becomes really difficult

00:35:18.880 your mind's like oh hey wait a minute like you just five minutes ago were telling me this wasn't

00:35:24.780 going to be that tough so what we actually have to do is do the opposite of our inclination and sit 0.85

00:35:30.460 there and say hey this race is going to suck like it's going to be tough it's going to be a challenge

00:35:37.600 i'm going to be on the pain train and i'm going to have to figure out a way how to get through it

00:35:42.860 and what happens is when you shift your expectations like that when the pain starts to come or when that

00:35:48.420 nervousness starts to come like your body and mind are prepared for it and it knows what to do

00:35:53.880 it helps you maintain that edge because i feel like in the so you do take that approach to a pitch like

00:35:58.420 oh it's no big deal i've never done you get lazy can cause you to plateau and make mistakes as opposed

00:36:03.440 to when you have that idea like this is going to be hard uh your your body your mind's gonna prepare

00:36:08.700 your body to just be on its top game exactly 100 yeah no yeah i love um i do that my my weight

00:36:15.580 training like if i know it's gonna be a lift i've done before like no it's still gonna suck it's gonna 0.78

00:36:19.200 be uncomfortable it's okay and just push through it and you'll be fine um so besides these these these

00:36:26.980 mindset shifts we can do what can we do throughout the day to ensure that we get this positive stress

00:36:33.780 because we have a lot coming at us there's family life there's fires that come up decisions we have

00:36:40.100 to make every day that add up and you know it increases stress in our in our minds and our bodies

00:36:45.700 so what can we do in our day to mitigate the bad kind of stress and focus on that that growth kind of

00:36:51.200 stress so i i think the first thing in in in if you do one thing this would be the one thing is to

00:36:57.760 try to carve out a few blocks of time even just two to three where you are doing deep focus work

00:37:05.480 so you're not multitasking your phone's in the other room you're distraction free and you're really

00:37:13.140 getting to put your head down and let your mind give its all toward a single objective um that is

00:37:21.700 like the most gratifying type of work and then that's also the quote-unquote good kind of stress

00:37:26.760 that is going to help your brain grow um i think then the second thing would be much along the lines of

00:37:35.400 the first is to just think about the things in your life that are causing stress that are somewhat

00:37:39.980 trivial and try to eliminate those things you know the the kind of cliche example is mark zuckerberg

00:37:47.520 wears the same hooded sweatshirt every day barack obama had the same suit and he wore the same suit

00:37:52.540 every day albert einstein was known to wear the same exact outfit and what they're doing is they're

00:37:57.660 not wasting any cognitive energy and they're not and it's going to sound crazy but stress is stress

00:38:02.960 they're not wasting one-tenth of a percentile of quote-unquote stress to decide what to wear

00:38:07.560 so they've completely automated that decision and what the research shows is trivial as it may seem

00:38:12.920 there are so many small decisions that we make throughout the day that they do take a toll on us

00:38:18.300 so to the extent that you can automate the things that don't really matter you protect your stress

00:38:24.240 budget for the things that do matter and and i'd add on to that is in addition to things that matter

00:38:30.120 and don't matter is it's also about the things that you can control and that you can't control

00:38:35.240 right and if you step back and do like a deep dive on um what causes you stress in the day a lot of

00:38:42.840 those things are things that you have no control and impact over right and if if i can't have an

00:38:48.960 impact on it why am i stressing on it so what i try and do in my own life and suggest to those who i

00:38:55.200 work with is say hey like when something is stressed stressing you out take a step back and ask like

00:39:01.600 okay what's causing this stress can i control it can i alleviate it or impact it in any way

00:39:08.640 and if not then like i've got to learn how to like put that in the back of my mind and move on from it

00:39:14.680 right so this idea of deep work what does the research say and like you know we should set aside

00:39:19.900 blocks of time for that like how far can we go with that until where you know there's diminishing

00:39:25.520 returns like how how much can we actually do that deep work so go ahead steve okay yeah i was just

00:39:32.920 going to say so the research basically says that up to about 90 minutes is the max time out at one

00:39:39.900 instant that you can um you can do deep focus work for now having said that it's going to be highly

00:39:46.980 individual so what we suggest is like keeping track of it when you start doing some deep focus work

00:39:53.740 at first and say like hey when does my mind start to wander when do i start feel that urge to like

00:40:01.280 go check my cell phone or go get up and do something else like that is your brain telling you in terms of

00:40:08.780 fatigue that i'm getting tired and i'm not going to be able to sustain this uh very much longer it's no

00:40:15.840 difference than when you go lift weights and you're on rep number eight of ten and you're feeling that

00:40:22.320 fatigue that's your brain telling you like hey i'm not going to be able to do this much longer so step

00:40:27.960 one is like paying attention to it and figuring out where your individual zone lies but most of the

00:40:34.400 research says between 60 and 90 minutes is about the max that you can push that before you need some sort

00:40:40.220 of uh break to step away but it's it's almost like when you're um you're doing any sort of intense

00:40:47.080 exercise right the more intense it is then the shorter that time frame goes before you need a

00:40:53.020 break to recover so that you can repeat it again so let's talk about recovery we mentioned earlier

00:40:57.840 like recovery is where the growth happens it's not when you're training not when you're lifting weights

00:41:02.440 not when you're running and it's not when you're working really hard on a presentation so for example

00:41:07.400 in the world of sports recovery primarily is just like eating enough food getting enough sleep

00:41:12.480 letting your muscles rest what does recovery look like in our professional lives and brad what do you

00:41:18.300 what's your take on that so i think it's two two really important things the first is letting your mind

00:41:24.720 wander throughout the day and then the second is sleep so starting with letting your mind wander

00:41:31.840 there's a wealth of research and i touched on this a little bit earlier that shows that the way that

00:41:37.980 breakthrough thinking and problem solving occurs is that it's only after we've kind of delved into

00:41:44.780 work and then stepped away that our brain that the creative network in our brain fully comes alive and

00:41:50.760 turns on there are studies that show that taking a shower which isn't so pragmatic for people midday

00:41:57.240 can help spur that kind of mind wandering that leads to creative thinking and problem solving

00:42:01.740 um also taking a walk meditating listening to music really just anything that kind of allows you to

00:42:10.300 turn off your effortful thinking conscious focus mind um because what the neuroscience shows is that the

00:42:17.040 brain has two networks in one network it's called the task positive network and that's the part of your

00:42:24.000 brain that is on when you're doing deep focus work when you're effortfully consciously thinking of

00:42:28.380 something the other part of your brain is called the default mode network sometimes it's referred to

00:42:33.420 as the subconscious and that's the part of your brain where creative thinking and associative linkages

00:42:40.020 occur and what the research shows is that it's kind of a zero-sum game so when you're effortfully

00:42:45.360 thinking and working on something that more creative side of your brain it doesn't light up in in neural

00:42:51.640 imaging like when they look at people's brains it kind of stays dark so in order to access that more

00:42:56.580 creative side of your brain you have to turn off the conscious effortful thinking side of the brain

00:43:02.040 and the way to do that is to let your mind wander so again the activities that i mentioned walking

00:43:07.680 meditation listening to music looking at pictures those are really just conduits to letting your mind

00:43:13.600 wander um those would be the types of breaks that you'd want to take throughout the day so in between

00:43:19.440 periods of deep work then the second and equally if not more important way to rest is sleep so i think

00:43:28.700 it was in early 2000 some researchers in harvard did a groundbreaking study that showed that it is

00:43:35.580 during sleep that we consolidate link and retain all the information that we were exposed to throughout

00:43:44.200 the day so if you think about a normal day we are exposed to so much like there's the stuff that

00:43:49.580 we're effortfully thinking and working on but then there's also like the color of the car in the

00:43:54.100 parking lot and the person that i saw at the grocery store like just constant stimuli coming in through

00:43:59.280 all of our senses and obviously we don't retain all of that because if we did our brains would be

00:44:04.700 completely overcrowded so the brain does the work of figuring out what to store and where to store it

00:44:10.020 when we sleep and that's why sleep deprivation can lead to just like terrible cognitive performance

00:44:17.480 poor self-control i mean you name it almost every single cognitive or psychological function goes down

00:44:24.060 when we don't sleep so back to kind of like putting the the american ethos around it a saying that i've

00:44:30.820 adopted coming out of this book is that sleep is one of the most productive things that you can do

00:44:34.720 because when you sleep your productivity is going way up and i mean i think everyone has had an experience

00:44:41.720 where they are they have some kind of deadline the next day and they're pushing on it late at night

00:44:47.160 and then they finally just say screw it i need to go to sleep and then they wake up the next morning

00:44:51.420 and they redo whatever they did because there's so much fresher and that is like the prime example

00:44:56.540 of the importance of sleep recover so besides these little mini breaks you take throughout the day

00:45:01.700 taking a walk maybe taking a nap getting out in nature what role does like you know just taking

00:45:07.640 time off from work completely play in the recovery part of the stress recovery adaptation cycle in our

00:45:14.200 professional lives so i think it's it's very similar again to to in athletics so if you look at the best

00:45:20.200 athletes um particularly endurance athletes who are really taxing their bodies most of them after their

00:45:27.360 most important big peak races they take between two and five weeks off where they don't do anything

00:45:32.920 they just allow their minds and bodies to completely recover and that to me is what a vacation should be

00:45:39.780 so to the extent that one can time their vacations to follow like the culmination of a big work or a big

00:45:46.420 project that's great because otherwise you're just bouncing from one big stress to the next and all that

00:45:51.880 stress is compiling without an opportunity to kind of um you know deflate a little bit and come back

00:45:58.680 to homeostasis um and then the second part about vacation is research shows that uh just you know

00:46:06.000 taking two days off can prevent the onset of burnout and for someone that is actually in the midst of

00:46:11.720 burnout and experiencing it a seven to ten day vacation can reverse it and so steve how do you how do you

00:46:16.860 how can people make this case to their boss that oh hey mr boss man i need to take more breaks during

00:46:22.180 the day and also need more vacation uh do you guys have any uh case studies where an organization

00:46:30.780 a business allowed their employees to you know unplug from work and it actually increased productivity

00:46:36.240 yeah i wish i had the magic answer for convincing your boss but um what we try and do is give people the

00:46:43.300 data um to show that hey this isn't me being quote unquote lazy this is me trying to make sure trying

00:46:50.760 to increase my productivity for you so if i'm able to step away during the day if i'm able to recharge

00:46:58.120 with the vacation afterwards like i'm going to come back refreshed and more productive and there was

00:47:04.160 actually a um research case study done with a consulting group where they took their um high level

00:47:12.100 consultants and essentially said hey like at first we're going to give you one night off per week so

00:47:18.840 not not a day off from work just like one night where you go home and like you got to put your work

00:47:24.820 away and and that's it and the consultants in this case study freaked out right they thought like oh how

00:47:32.260 are we going to get our work done like i'm going to get bad reviews i'm going to get fired like all this

00:47:37.740 negative stuff and even the people the bosses who accepted to do this study were kind of worried and

00:47:43.920 freaked out about it um but what ended up happening is that their productivity and their ratings afterwards

00:47:50.920 for this uh the work they were doing went up right and it increased with them just taking one night

00:47:58.180 off a week and what they ended up doing is follow-up study to expand this a little bit increase that

00:48:03.820 recovery and you saw again performance improvement so i really think it's this mindset shift that needs

00:48:12.120 to be had that we need to have that makes us realize that you know if i'm working all the time at

00:48:19.880 20 of my max capacity then what good is that like wouldn't you rather have me work you know five days a

00:48:27.120 week at 100 percent than every single day every single hour at 20 and that's how we have to start

00:48:34.260 looking at this recovery is work that's it rest is a part of the work i mean that's how we're going

00:48:40.660 to sell it here i think that's the only way to sell it and to be totally honest like i'm not above

00:48:46.420 that that's how i sell it to myself yeah so you guys in the book uh what that was interesting you get

00:48:51.880 high level and you talk about the importance of having a purpose and facilitating this stress

00:48:58.400 recovery adaptation cycle so so brad how can figuring out a bigger purpose help us through this cycle

00:49:05.260 so this is some of the most fascinating research in the book to me and i'll start in exercise science

00:49:13.340 so in exercise science there are two predominant theories of fatigue one is called the central governor of

00:49:20.980 fatigue and what the central governor of fatigue says that fatigue happens in the brain before the

00:49:26.420 body so the brain literally shuts down the muscles when the muscles have more to give and the brain does

00:49:33.600 this because it is an evolutionary programmed protective mechanism it's saying whoa you're pushing to the

00:49:39.280 extreme if you push any harder like you might do some real damage and get hurt so the way that they've

00:49:45.760 studied this is they've had people go into a gym and lift weights do leg curls till they were completely

00:49:52.140 tapped out till they said i cannot do one more curl their legs are quivering and shaking and then they ran

00:49:57.260 an electrical current through the muscle and the muscle contracted with full force so what that told

00:50:02.340 the researchers is that the muscle the energy system in the muscle still had plenty to give but the brain

00:50:08.080 was putting the brakes on early by creating the sensation of fatigue so hold on to that thought

00:50:14.240 that's the central governor of fatigue then the other model of fatigue in exercise science is called

00:50:18.960 the psychobiological model it's very very similar what that model shows is that at any given point

00:50:25.020 of physical exertion our brain is doing an evaluation and weighing perception of effort so how hard what

00:50:32.560 we're doing feels versus motivation and when perception of effort is greater than motivation we slow down

00:50:38.340 but when motivation is greater than perception of effort we keep on pushing so both of these two

00:50:45.280 predominant theories come at the same thing from the same place which is that if you have a really

00:50:49.860 strong motivation then you can push your body further and what we found is again kind of the mo of

00:50:57.180 this book when you look at the management literature the same thing occurs outside of the gym and in the

00:51:02.360 workplace so employees that tend to perform best and um also have long sustainable careers they tend to

00:51:10.240 find meaning in their work and in particular they tend to link their work to some sort of greater cause

00:51:15.040 and it's the same phenomenon that's happening right if you have that motivation that's beyond yourself

00:51:20.100 something greater than yourself you're not so worried about protecting yourself you're willing to put in

00:51:25.280 more work because there's there's something else there um and you know i could sit here and talk about the

00:51:30.700 research all day but i think the easiest way to explain it is just to ask folks when when you're like

00:51:37.760 really working hard putting an effort uncomfortable if you're doing it for a paycheck or you're doing it

00:51:44.760 because you know that someone else is going to really benefit and it's going to make an impact on

00:51:48.360 someone else's life which way are you more likely to do the work and almost everyone says the latter

00:51:54.700 right it's like for that greater cost and again what's happening is in our brain there's a little switch

00:51:59.840 that says i'm not so concerned about protecting myself i'm not so concerned about being uncomfortable

00:52:05.140 because i'm doing this for something beyond myself right so that purpose could be uh say you're answering

00:52:10.800 emails it's really mundane uh these emails help me you know help people like the clients we serve or it could

00:52:17.740 be like this is how i you know support my family it could be anything totally i have a very interesting

00:52:22.400 example with the emails um so you know i before i started writing i was in a job where i managed a

00:52:29.260 a big spreadsheet it was a report and it got published every single month and is in a health

00:52:34.100 care system and without fail every month after that report went out my phone blew up with calls from the

00:52:41.700 local leaders asking me endless questions about the report and i'm sitting there thinking like i cannot

00:52:48.460 believe that you're asking the same questions month over month like this is so straightforward

00:52:52.320 nothing has changed and what would happen is the phone would ring and i'd have that attitude and i'd

00:52:58.420 probably give shitty answers and i wasn't performing at my best i wasn't happy and then started getting

00:53:04.060 into this research and i had this this switch or this excuse me this this kind of um flip switched

00:53:09.920 in my mind which is that report the contents of that report and those managers it had direct

00:53:15.940 impact on how patients in this health care system were being cared for so on my phone i took a little

00:53:21.040 sticky note and i wrote this report saves lives because if you trace it all the way to its end it

00:53:27.500 truly does and then when the phone would ring my entire attitude shift i spent more time with these

00:53:33.260 people i i was feeling more fulfilled and happy same report same phone calls but just reminding

00:53:39.040 myself of what the real end was completely shifted my relationship with it and are there exercises you

00:53:44.760 recommend people go through to figure out their purpose steve yeah so we outline a series of um

00:53:51.360 exercises in the book to to do that and what it really comes down to is is figuring out almost doing

00:53:58.080 a deep dive of what really matters in your life right and then looking at what your core values are

00:54:05.420 right and assigning hey this is what is important to me and this is what i i value in life and then from

00:54:13.640 there it's about taking a step back and saying like okay out of these core values like what is the most

00:54:20.280 important thing to to me like how do i rank these core values um among things to see like what really

00:54:27.640 matters and then the final step of that is to get to what we call the purpose statement so taking those

00:54:35.360 core values and seeing how how much importance they have to you and then sitting down say like okay

00:54:41.840 how do i fit this into my greater narrative of life right what is the purpose of this and it's not that

00:54:49.980 everyone needs some grand answer um and grand overarching purpose but there has to be a reason for doing what you

00:54:59.260 are doing so it could be something as simple as brad uh mentioned there with his report and phone call and

00:55:05.840 similarly the research has shown that if you take um garbage man for example and you say hey this is

00:55:15.500 this you're not a garbage man like your your title is you know sanitation officer and you're helping to

00:55:23.000 keep the streets and houses clean and safe and all that and helping to eliminate the spread of disease

00:55:28.460 what happens is their you know overall enjoyment of their work actually goes up and they no longer see

00:55:35.580 it as a um as a mundane task that has no meaning so it's really about trying to figure out and frame

00:55:42.700 how you can bring meaning to whatever work it is that you're doing well brad see this has been a great

00:55:49.680 conversation where can people go to learn more about peak performance so the book is available on amazon and

00:55:56.500 wherever else books are sold so all booksellers and then the book's website is www.peakperformancebook.net

00:56:04.380 and then both steve and i are fairly active on twitter i'm at b stolberg and steve is at steve magnus

00:56:11.620 awesome brad stolberg steve magnus thank you so much for your time it's been a pleasure thank you

00:56:16.160 thank you my guests today were brad stolberg and steve magnus they're the author of the book

00:56:20.140 peak performance it's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere you can find out more

00:56:24.060 information about their book at peakperformancebook.net also check out our show notes at

00:56:28.540 aom.is slash peak performance where you can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into

00:56:33.060 this topic

00:56:33.660 well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice

00:56:50.960 make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com if you enjoy the

00:56:54.580 podcast you've gotten something out of it i'd appreciate if you take one minute to give this

00:56:57.640 review on itunes or stitcher helps out a lot also tell you know a few friends about the podcast because

00:57:02.280 we found that most people discover the podcast because a friend recommended it so if you could

00:57:06.040 do that really appreciate it as always thank you for your continued support until next time this is

00:57:10.060 brett mckay telling you to stay manly

00:57:12.160 you

The Art of Manliness - October 25, 2017

#350： Peak Performance — Elevate Your Game and Avoid Burnout

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