The Art of Manliness - #355： Leadership and Public Service With Gov. Eric Greitens

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast now the art of

00:00:19.200 manliness is intentionally and rigorously politically neutral and I never had a politician

00:00:23.700 on the podcast before but then never before has a previous guest gone on to become the governor of

00:00:29.260 his state I previously had Eric Gritens a former Rhodes Scholar humanitarian worker and Navy SEAL

00:00:33.680 on the show to talk about his book resilience that's episode number 105 you want to listen to

00:00:37.520 that it's a good one but last year without any prior political experience Gritens successfully

00:00:41.920 ran for governor of Missouri becoming the second youngest governor in the country recently I met

00:00:46.620 with Gritens in the governor's office at the Missouri State Capitol in Jefferson City Missouri to have a

00:00:50.460 very non-partisan high-level discussion about public service and the duties of citizenship we discussed

00:00:55.400 why he decided to run for elected office and why he incorporated service projects and community

00:01:00.440 projects and his campaign stops around the state we then discuss how the governor's study of ancient

00:01:04.660 philosophy informs his idea of public service and how stoicism comes in handy in the rough and tumble

00:01:10.200 political arena governor Gritens then shares what he's been reading to be an effective leader

00:01:13.820 and statesman his role models for public office and how he manages being a young father and a busy

00:01:19.140 governor at the same time we then end the show talking about why you should get over your cynicism

00:01:23.280 of politics and throw your hat in the arena no matter your political or party affiliation really

00:01:27.880 interesting podcast after the show's over check out the show notes at aom.is slash governor Gritens

00:01:33.260 Eric Gritens welcome back to the show thanks Brett good to be on with you and all of the art of

00:01:42.520 manliness podcast listeners I had a lot of fun last time we're on and looking forward to talking with

00:01:47.300 you today right last time we had you on you just published your book resilience that was 2015 and I got

00:01:52.700 a phenomenal response from that podcast particularly the message you have I'm curious

00:01:56.560 what was the response you got from that book that you published we had an incredible response

00:02:01.780 to resilience from people all over the country every walk of life because the fact is like

00:02:07.140 everybody has to deal with pain in their life everybody has to deal with suffering everybody has to

00:02:12.280 deal with hardship and I think what people liked about the resilience book was it was just letters

00:02:16.960 me talking to my buddy a friend of mine who was a fellow Navy SEAL who'd run into a really tough time

00:02:22.700 and what people often said to us was they said look if your buddy who was a Navy SEAL had been through

00:02:27.880 the hardest military training in the world if he was knocked down by these things it gave them a sense

00:02:33.880 that you know the pain that they're facing is something they can move through they can move through

00:02:37.440 that to build wisdom they can move through suffering to build strength move through fear to build

00:02:41.280 courage and we had had a really really great great response to it well since then that episode we

00:02:45.880 did you've been a busy man you turned into candidate Gritens in Missouri you ran for governor and then

00:02:52.380 now you are governor Gritens so let's talk about that because I think it is really interesting what

00:02:56.340 I'd like to do is stay very high level with this talk about because as you know I know you're uh you've

00:03:01.860 studied the classics ancient history ancient philosophy with your background and one thing I found this is

00:03:07.140 the art of manliness podcast if you look back to the ancient Greeks and the Romans part of their ideal

00:03:11.940 of manhood or manliness meant you were active in the public arena the public sphere you pretty provided

00:03:17.380 some some sense of service to the community absolutely right so let's talk about this before this time you

00:03:23.720 had you had a career dedicated to service for those who aren't familiar with you can you kind of give us

00:03:29.800 the background of what you know what got you to running for governor yeah so I mean the you know big

00:03:34.780 picture background um I'll just say I was very fortunate to grow up in Missouri wonderful family

00:03:41.540 good teachers I first started doing service actually as a kid doing doing service projects

00:03:47.960 later in college I started doing international humanitarian work that brought me to places like

00:03:52.620 Bosnia Rwanda ended up writing a dissertation on how international humanitarian organizations work

00:03:58.220 with kids in war zones later as we talked about on the last podcast served as a navy seal did four

00:04:03.460 deployments overseas to Afghanistan Iraq Southeast Asia the Horn of Africa and then when I came home

00:04:10.100 from Iraq I came home after my team had been hit by a suicide truck bomb I was very fortunate my wounds 1.00

00:04:15.980 were minor I was taken to the Fallujah Surgical Hospital treated there I was able to return to full

00:04:20.200 duty 72 hours later but a lot of my buddies were hurt far worse than I was my friend Joel who was

00:04:25.560 standing right next to me when the truck bomb went off he ended up being casualty evacuated all the way back

00:04:30.220 to the United States so when I came home I started an organization called the mission continues to help

00:04:35.980 returning veterans come back home and to reintegrate successfully to start their own businesses to get

00:04:41.520 quality private sector jobs and that was you know that was my trajectory I'd run a small business I'd

00:04:47.700 worked to help veterans I'd served as a Navy SEAL done humanitarian work but I'd never been involved

00:04:53.440 in politics before so where does this desire to serve comes from where do you think it comes from

00:04:58.940 well I think I think it comes from a sense that we have we're going to live well we have to live for

00:05:04.440 more than ourselves if we're going to live well we have to find a way to be of service to others and

00:05:10.240 in fact you know what a lot of the ancients talked about was the fact that in order to become your full

00:05:16.320 self you can only find that through serving others it's only in the act of pushing yourself

00:05:22.700 challenging yourself to make a contribution to your community to your family to your country

00:05:27.920 that you actually realize your your full self you know we don't talk as much today about the idea of

00:05:34.300 a vocation but but a vocation is something that even you go back a couple generations ago people use

00:05:40.120 that word a lot more and the best definition of a vocation that I ever heard was from a guy named

00:05:46.060 Reverend Peter Gomes and he said your vocation is the place where your great joy meets the world's

00:05:53.040 great need and I think what we all have to do is find out how we can do the things that bring us a

00:05:59.520 sense of joy and fulfillment and purpose and are meeting the needs in the world how'd you go about

00:06:04.260 finding your vocation so so this is actually a really important point one of the things I always

00:06:09.860 say to folks is that people often say like how do you find your vocation how do you find your purpose

00:06:15.620 and one of the things that I say is look you're never gonna find it by looking for it because it's

00:06:20.920 not lost right that there's sometimes this idea in the culture that somehow your vocation is sitting

00:06:26.720 out there and you can just sort of discover it actually what the the Greeks understood and I think

00:06:33.040 what Reverend Gomes was and others were getting at is that you create your vocation and you create it

00:06:39.260 by pushing yourself you create it by challenging yourself you create it by doing things that you

00:06:43.960 were once afraid to do and you find ways ways to engage them and as you do that you actually change

00:06:49.840 as a person so that the act of of creating your vocation is is part of developing yourself while at the

00:06:57.800 same time coming to understand the world and it's a much healthier way of thinking about how you find your

00:07:02.720 purpose how you find your vocation because you know what it says to people is you don't have to

00:07:07.760 look around to figure this out what you have what you do have to do is you have to start acting start

00:07:13.780 serving in your community push yourself go out challenge it challenge yourself to tutor a kid who's in third

00:07:18.620 grade who's having trouble reading challenge yourself to get involved in a community challenge yourself to

00:07:23.460 to you know help people at the local food bank to mentor a kid through big brothers big sisters as you push

00:07:29.900 yourself as you engage in that kind of action you develop yourself and you'll come to a place where

00:07:35.600 you really find and build your vocation so public service served in the military navy seal started a

00:07:41.680 foundation you were private citizen gritens you decided to run for the governorship of missouri

00:07:47.660 was this something you always wanted to do like elected office is this something you saw yourself doing

00:07:52.340 as a kid or was there something that caused you like that's what i need to do next well look the real

00:07:56.840 moment for me actually came during ferguson in missouri in 2014 i'm sure a lot of your listeners

00:08:03.680 watch this they saw the tremendous disaster the real tragedy of what had happened during ferguson now

00:08:11.040 the short story is you know i saw what was happening called my buddy harlan we've been friends since we

00:08:16.080 were 14 years old and harlan picked up the phone and he says to me i know why you're calling and yes i'll go

00:08:22.780 with you so harlan and i go down to go down to ferguson now you know side story i i'd been working

00:08:29.340 with a lot of police officers since i came back from iraq in iraq i was a commander of an al-qaeda

00:08:34.240 targeting cell our job was to capture mid to senior level al-qaeda leaders in and around fallujah

00:08:39.520 fallujah is obviously a rough neighborhood i'd come back from iraq and started working with a lot of

00:08:44.400 police officers so i actually knew some of the guys on the st louis city police force st louis county

00:08:49.740 police force so we go down to ferguson and the thing that was so striking brett was that

00:08:54.860 as soon as i walked on to the streets you could feel you could tell there was no leadership

00:09:02.180 our our our governor wasn't present the chief law enforcement officer of the state the attorney

00:09:08.620 general wasn't present there was no direction and i just i just walked through the crowd and i talked to

00:09:14.540 people and i asked them hey man why why are you why are you out today people were angry they were

00:09:19.540 confused they were heard there's rumors that were running through the crowd you talk to our law

00:09:23.980 enforcement officers they'd come out to this incredibly difficult dangerous situation and there

00:09:29.400 was no guidance there was no leadership so you had protesters who wanted to be heard who were who

00:09:34.480 were ignored you had police officers who needed to be supported who were abandoned and i just saw that

00:09:40.780 if you'd had if we'd had someone who'd shown up with any kind of command presence and courage and calm

00:09:47.340 and clarity we could have had peace now it's not like i i left that night and decided to run for

00:09:53.660 governor but i went home and i talked to my wife and i was like i can't believe that there's nobody out

00:09:57.760 there there's no one who's out there who's actually leading and it just brought attention to the fact that we

00:10:05.020 need to have people who are outsiders who are willing to come in and spend part of their life 0.99

00:10:10.220 serving in in public office so what was that conversation like with your wife saying that you're

00:10:14.980 going to run because you know she she's she gets a job too like she's along for the ride as well 1.00

00:10:19.760 yeah this is a family endeavor so what was that like well first of all you know we have now we've got

00:10:26.680 two uh we've got two young boys joshua who's three years old jacob who's one year old jacob was

00:10:32.100 actually born during the campaign so we didn't want to do anything easy brett we wanted to make sure

00:10:37.260 that we had a brand new baby a couple months right before the primary but look i think that

00:10:43.820 you know what sheena had always known you know when we got married i'd obviously i'd already served in

00:10:48.720 the navy seal teams i'd done the humanitarian work when we got married i was running the mission

00:10:53.260 continues and you know what we're doing at the mission continues was we were i was you know traveling

00:10:59.020 around the country recruiting volunteers building a program to help veterans reintegrate successfully

00:11:05.480 she knew how important it was to me to make sure that i was finding a way to serve people to fight

00:11:13.000 for people to make a difference for people and she she had seen a lot of the challenges that you know

00:11:18.900 that missouri was facing she obviously saw what ferguson was facing and we sat down i think like a lot of

00:11:24.800 couples do and we just talked about what this would mean like how we would would get through it but

00:11:29.760 absolutely 100 this was a decision that we made together because we knew that it was going to affect

00:11:35.460 not just not just us and our kids but you know it does affect your whole family affects your parents

00:11:40.020 your friends everybody so as you said you had no political experience at this point going for the

00:11:45.340 governor that's that's a big big jump you mean most people they're like okay i'm gonna start as a

00:11:50.180 state representative maybe insurance commissioner why did you decide just go for governor and what

00:11:56.100 was that experience like not having any political experience before then look the thing is as

00:12:00.480 governor you can get things done right and i got into this because i wanted to get things done part

00:12:05.480 of the reason like i love this job is that you can wake up every single day and do good things for

00:12:11.380 people and that's why i wanted to do this i didn't want to do this to get involved in politics i wanted to

00:12:16.260 do this to get involved to fight for people and to make a difference you know simple things like like

00:12:21.880 changing the foster care system in the state of missouri got 13 000 kids in the missouri foster care system

00:12:27.940 we are making a difference for them we're making a difference for parents and foster care we're

00:12:33.300 supporting our national guards supporting our law enforcement bringing jobs the the point is that

00:12:38.740 i knew that as governor i could make a difference i knew that as governor we could really change the

00:12:43.720 direction of the state was there anything that surprised you about the campaigning process being an

00:12:49.320 outsider well i mean one of the things that was i think one of the most pleasant surprises was that

00:12:54.080 we were told by all of the insiders that this was impossible i mean they literally they went back

00:13:01.080 and they they looked at missouri history and they're like we've never had someone who's come in from the

00:13:05.540 outside and who's run for governor and been successful and so we had you know all of these

00:13:10.580 political types the career politicians the insiders the lobbyists all of us telling us that this was

00:13:16.780 gonna be impossible and and then and then they'd come out with you know polling numbers like in the

00:13:21.880 beginning right i can remember there was this poll that came out and you know i was running in a

00:13:27.420 primary and there was one candidate had 30 and another had 25 and another had 20 and i was i was at

00:13:35.760 two percent and that was in a poll with a margin of error of 4.5 right so we could have even been

00:13:42.260 negative and they said this is impossible you'll never be able to do it but the fact is we were

00:13:47.620 successful and and what the happy surprise the happy thing that we found was so many people

00:13:55.140 wanted to get involved but they wanted to know that they had a candidate and a cause that they could

00:14:01.080 believe in and we had thousands of people maybe tens of thousands of people around the state who

00:14:07.320 volunteered for us who donated to us who went out who put out yard signs who knocked on doors for us

00:14:12.860 who'd never been involved in politics before and you know what those folks are still with us they're 0.97

00:14:18.780 still helping us to drive change every day so one of the reading about your your candidacy one of

00:14:23.940 the unique things you did you did service projects what's i mean that you don't really see that with

00:14:28.460 other political people what was going on there look the the most important thing that i found it at

00:14:33.500 the at the mission continues and this is true when i was doing humanitarian work it was true when i was

00:14:37.720 a navy seal so you got to find ways to take action you got to find ways to take action to solve

00:14:44.340 problems and i also found that when people started to work on a problem you often found that a lot of

00:14:52.300 these ideological fights and political fights kind of you know faded to the background because people

00:14:57.840 were working together what we always did at the mission continues was we always brought people

00:15:03.980 together to do service so this isn't something i you know i started when i was in office something

00:15:08.840 i've been doing for for years and we would bring hundreds of veterans and non-veterans and family

00:15:15.060 members out and we do you know a church cleanup project we do a school rehabilitation and when you

00:15:20.980 brought people together and they served together for a day they left with a completely different

00:15:26.520 understanding of the person who they'd been serving with you know a lot of our veterans when they first

00:15:31.640 came home you know people honored them but they were also afraid they were oh man these guys have

00:15:37.240 post-traumatic stress disorder traumatic brain injury well after you spend a day doing a school

00:15:42.260 rehabilitation project with somebody and you're painting next to them and you're building next to

00:15:46.340 them and you're working working next to them you leave with a different sense of for who they were

00:15:50.120 and we've brought that not just into the campaign but actually into government i mean one of the one of

00:15:55.720 the things that we did when we were just this is probably a couple weeks into office we got the

00:16:00.580 word that there was a terrible act of cemetery desecration at a historic jewish cemetery in

00:16:06.480 st louis missouri about 156 headstones have been knocked over bashed with hammers defaced it's a

00:16:14.080 really terrible act so we heard about this on monday we went out on tuesday morning to facebook and we

00:16:20.720 communicate with a lot of people around the around the state of missouri and around the country on

00:16:24.640 on facebook we put out a message on facebook saying that on wednesday i said i'm going to be in that

00:16:30.200 cemetery and i'm going to be there and we're going to clean that cemetery up and we're going to

00:16:35.020 demonstrate that this act of vandalism isn't going to define who we are as missourians well and then

00:16:40.000 later that day brett i i called the jewish federation i called the archbishop i called the missouri baptist

00:16:45.380 convention we called locally moms we invited everybody out to join us in service by the time i showed up to

00:16:52.120 that cemetery the next day wednesday afternoon there are already thousands of people there

00:16:56.440 there were jewish jewish day schools who'd let who'd canceled school so that their kids could come

00:17:03.080 out and serve we had young people from colleges fraternities and circularities that came out private

00:17:08.060 companies that had led workers off to come out and join us thousands of people and i just got up

00:17:13.100 in the back of a pickup truck grabbed a megaphone and i just said to the crowd i said look when terrible

00:17:19.140 things happen we're not going to let those things define who we are as missourians in fact what we're

00:17:24.680 going to do is we're going to use these as opportunities to come together and to be stronger

00:17:28.860 and then people went out and we cleaned up that cemetery we beautified it it looked you know even

00:17:35.360 better than it had before the vandals had taken their action so i think it's really important in any

00:17:42.040 leadership in any leadership whenever you're facing a tough challenge find ways to bring people together

00:17:47.760 and get them to serve together if we do that together if we start making a difference together

00:17:52.700 we will find ways to work together and to solve problems so you are a student of the classics

00:17:58.840 i'm curious with that background did you have an ideal of of statesmanship leadership based on that

00:18:07.920 background that you brought to your service as governor yeah you know well actually one of the things

00:18:12.220 that i i i talked a lot about in the book resilience that you mentioned is that it's really important

00:18:17.160 to have models in your life it's really important to have role models and a lot of the ancients always

00:18:22.820 talked about seneca talked about this aristotle talked about this and in fact this was my boxing

00:18:27.860 coach's philosophy in college was that you have to have role models you have to have people who you can

00:18:35.520 look up to because they help you to see how you can can can serve yourself that in the the analogy that i

00:18:43.320 would often use i'll give you two kind of quick stories on this the analogy i would often use

00:18:47.860 with veterans was i would say look if somebody comes to you and handed you a giant trash bag full

00:18:55.180 of jigsaw puzzle pieces and they asked you to put it together i say what would you ask for and the

00:19:00.460 veterans would say to me well i'd ask for the picture right and these are men and women who might

00:19:04.940 have lost a limb they might have lost eyesight lost hearing they you know lost limbs or they're they're

00:19:10.380 in a difficult spot and what i always said to them is life hands you pieces you have to find a picture

00:19:17.960 and what we would do at the mission continues is we'd work with incredible veterans who'd come back

00:19:23.640 home you know my buddy tim smith the very first veteran to work with here in missouri guy who came

00:19:27.300 back home suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder he'd get up in front of this group and talk

00:19:32.640 about his own struggle and the fact that today he's running a business called patriot commercial cleaning

00:19:37.540 right he runs his own business he hires other veterans he's hired 50 other veterans he was a

00:19:43.580 role model for all of those veterans who were there in the same way for me i always look back on people

00:19:49.760 who i admired i admired for example marcus aurelius this is a guy who you know faced incredible hardship

00:19:57.060 in his life but also provided strong leadership and also left a legacy in words that you know we're

00:20:04.860 we're reading thousands of years later and marcus aurelius's meditation still provide sustenance

00:20:11.260 to people thousands of years later so i always whether it was teddy roosevelt winston churchill i

00:20:16.660 admired leaders who i thought of as leaders of action willing to do hard and difficult things

00:20:22.440 who are also willing to think and to reflect on not only their own service but what that might mean

00:20:29.260 for other people well going back to the stoicism theme i imagine you had to call upon the meditations

00:20:34.880 during your campaign because yeah though it's the part of the jostling of being in the arena as

00:20:39.840 roosevelt said so was there a moment where you had to you know read you know meditations or

00:20:45.660 seneca or something to okay put things in perspective yeah it was so it was actually helpful i mean a lot of

00:20:51.400 the stuff that i'd written about in resilience i used during the campaign so i'll give you give you

00:20:59.860 some specific examples like in resilience i write about the importance of friends okay anything that

00:21:05.560 we're going to do well in our life we have to have a good group of friends around us during the last

00:21:12.040 couple weeks of the campaign my buddy who's a navy seal went through went through buds with me he came

00:21:18.920 out and he literally joined me every single day during the last five weeks of the campaign and

00:21:24.540 we'd wake up early you know sometimes five six o'clock in the morning we'd find even a crazy hotel

00:21:30.240 pool and do this insane underwater workout that he'd developed okay that was first it was fun it got

00:21:37.040 your mindset in the right direction good exercise in the morning but then this is also a buddy who's

00:21:41.680 with me who's keeping everything in perspective making sure that we keep a sense of humor about this

00:21:47.040 and making sure that in midst all of these different distractions all of the different

00:21:53.640 things with people criticizing you in the media and whatnot that you keep your focus on the people

00:21:59.640 who you're there to serve and good friends can be really helpful in that way so that was just one of

00:22:05.040 the things that we did during the campaign that was it was essential so you mentioned teddy

00:22:09.540 roosevelt he's sort of like the patron saint of the art of manliness yes i'm curious i mean is there a

00:22:14.680 moment from roosevelt's life that you've looked to where you're like that's i want to aspire to that

00:22:19.980 i think there's so many moments in roosevelt's life and i think one of the things that is important

00:22:26.220 for all of us to look back on is remember roosevelt's early life remember those moments

00:22:33.320 where his mother and his wife both pass away and this is a time of not only tragedy for him

00:22:43.140 but also a time where he felt lost and then what did he do like that this is when he goes west

00:22:49.500 and you and i were talking about how in a vocation you create yourself you challenge yourself you push

00:22:55.320 yourself he was willing to do something that he hadn't done before he was willing to challenge

00:22:59.640 himself and and the teddy roosevelt who we think of now as a guy who is boxer a boxer and spent all this

00:23:08.240 time out west this is this is not who teddy roosevelt was as a kid right teddy roosevelt

00:23:13.640 actively created himself he understood that we all can can create ourselves through a process of

00:23:21.560 challenging ourselves but it's important when we look at teddy roosevelt to realize like he wasn't

00:23:26.780 always that guy this was a guy who was often lost this was a guy who was not just as a kid but when he

00:23:33.940 first got into public service was often laughed at was ridiculed was always always the source of

00:23:40.560 tremendous criticism even when he was a president of the united states and i think it's important

00:23:45.700 this is one of the great values of really good biographies so when you really understand those

00:23:51.420 stories and for all of us in our own journeys when we reach those places where we are feeling a little

00:23:56.980 lost when we have been been criticized when we're dealing with all this you look back at your at your

00:24:02.140 your heroes and you realize they've all had to do the same thing nothing comes comes easy so were you

00:24:07.520 like roosevelt as a kid so you know roosevelt he's this archetypal figure of just american manhood

00:24:12.800 led this the charge up san juan hill etc but he as you said he had to get to that point and as a kid

00:24:18.840 he was sickly and he was a nerd for all intents and purposes and that's nothing wrong with being a nerd

00:24:23.160 but that's what he was were you like that did you have to learn how to be brave and like did being a navy 0.95

00:24:29.100 seal come natural to you or is that something you had to work into we all have to learn how to be

00:24:34.480 brave every one of us has to learn how to how to be brave and i think this is this is actually a

00:24:40.460 really important point because i think our culture often teaches the wrong lessons about courage

00:24:45.560 so i'll give you just one one quick quick story you know when i was boxing i used i knew this guy who

00:24:52.060 was once a trainer to one of the heavyweight champions of the world he tells me this story that

00:24:55.940 one day the heavyweight champion of the world calls him on the phone and the heavyweight champ

00:25:00.220 says hey man hey you got to get on the phone you got to talk to this guy for me i need you to talk

00:25:03.800 to him and the trainer said who is it who do you need me to talk to and the heavyweight champ

00:25:07.820 the world said i need you to do this for me you got to do it and the trainer said well who is it who

00:25:10.600 do you need me to talk to and the heavyweight champ the world says i need you to talk to my

00:25:15.620 gardener the heavyweight champ of the world says yeah he's got this bill and he's trying to

00:25:21.800 overcharge me. And the trainer said he realized at that moment that the heavyweight champion of

00:25:27.440 the world was absolutely terrified to confront his gardener over a bill. And he said to me,

00:25:33.560 he said, Eric, he said, that's when it really dawned on me that we all have uneven courage.

00:25:39.780 I mean, this guy's the heavyweight champion of the world. No one would question, right,

00:25:44.000 his willingness to step into the ring, his kind of physical courage against some of the

00:25:48.280 most dangerous fighters in the world. And yet he's afraid to confront his gardener over a bill.

00:25:56.360 And the point he made, and he's right about this, is that we all build certain kinds of courage in

00:26:01.720 our life. And we build that courage by doing things, by confronting our fears, and we all have uneven

00:26:09.060 courage. And so what we all have to do in order to grow is we have to push ourselves to do those

00:26:15.180 very things that we're afraid of, right? And you gotta, you gotta, you know, the first time I

00:26:20.180 stepped into a boxing ring, of course, I'm afraid to get hit in the face. I mean, who wouldn't be,

00:26:25.320 right? First time, you know, you're in the Navy SEAL teams, and they tie your feet together, and they

00:26:30.340 tie your hands behind your back, and they make you jump at the pool. Of course, you're going to be

00:26:34.960 afraid. But the SEAL team training teaches you to address that fear, to deal with that fear. When you

00:26:40.820 decide that you're going to run for public office, nobody likes having a newspaper write terrible

00:26:45.880 things about you, right? But again, this is one of those things that you just have to learn, you got,

00:26:50.540 you got to do. And so I think that the key lesson about courage is we all have to recognize courage

00:26:57.400 is not something that you necessarily have to have. It is something that you have to be willing to

00:27:03.300 create. You have to be willing to push yourself to build that kind of courage. And you can build

00:27:08.320 those virtues. And that fundamentally is one of the big differences between the way

00:27:13.320 our society thinks and the way that the ancients thought. The ancients recognized that virtues were

00:27:20.420 excellences that you built, and you built them through practice. You built them by following

00:27:25.180 role models. You built them by having the right friends. You built them by having the right mentors.

00:27:29.960 We often think that you either have these virtues or you don't. The great news is, you know,

00:27:34.800 you read Seneca, you read Aristotle, you read Thomas Aquinas, right? All of these guys,

00:27:39.740 they had points of difference, but what they all agreed on was that you have the power to shape your

00:27:45.780 own character. I love that. Well, speaking of character, there's a lot of folks who argue that,

00:27:51.040 okay, there's a, the politician has two lives. There's a public life and a private life. And

00:27:55.640 what he does in his private life is his business and his character. But like, do you think that's

00:28:00.140 true or false that character or your private life doesn't matter? It doesn't reflect in your public

00:28:05.240 action? No, I think that everything that you do is reflective of your character, right? And the work

00:28:11.220 that you do, the life that you live is reflective of who you are. And the fact is, the virtues that we

00:28:17.920 build, the virtues that we develop, they're important for me in my role as a father, right? Teaching

00:28:24.160 Joshua and Jacob, they're important for me in what I do as, as an athlete. They're important for me

00:28:31.540 in the work that I do as, as a governor. And so while you have the, it's required that we all build

00:28:38.200 different kinds of courage, right? Ultimately, all of these things do reflect on your, on your

00:28:43.500 character. I read a recent survey done amongst millennials. I'm in that cohort. And it said that

00:28:48.660 most millennials, like the vast majority would not ever run for public office. And it's because of,

00:28:55.680 you know, it just, from the outside, it looks like a circus. It's easy to be cynical. One of the other

00:29:00.340 things people gave is like, I don't want to be attacked, or I don't want my family to be attacked.

00:29:05.340 And just the scrutiny that, especially in the social media age, what do you say to those,

00:29:10.800 those young people who they aren't happy with the way things are, and they want to make a change

00:29:15.640 and do something more besides doing a hashtag, right? On Twitter, but they don't, they're afraid

00:29:21.080 of make, stepping into the arena. And it doesn't matter what party you are, right? What do you say

00:29:25.800 to those young people? I say, step in. I say, make a difference. And I say, the fact is, and this is

00:29:32.620 again, one of the virtues of reading biography, reading history. If you want to make a difference,

00:29:37.620 if you want to do anything worthwhile and worthy and difficult, you will be criticized. That's just

00:29:46.340 the fact. You know, I had an opportunity once. I worked in one of Mother Teresa's homes for the

00:29:51.020 destitute and dying in Varanasi, India. And what's interesting, you know, you read a good

00:29:56.360 biography of Mother Teresa, and you read that in the beginning of her work, when she is working to help

00:30:03.900 the destitute to die with dignity, she was criticized for it. There are all of these people

00:30:10.500 who are criticizing Mother Teresa for the work that she was doing. And this wasn't just at the

00:30:16.000 beginning of her life, it continued throughout her life. And I actually wrote in Resilience to my buddy

00:30:21.480 who's a Navy SEAL, I said, look, you and I aren't our Mother Teresa. But what this should do is give you

00:30:27.200 a lot of courage, because you have to recognize that if you do anything worthwhile, you're going to

00:30:33.480 bring out critics. And for me, I also think that, you know, the experience of having been a Navy SEAL,

00:30:40.640 the experience of having done humanitarian work, helped put a lot of things in perspective.

00:30:45.080 You know, so when I was 20 years old, I was living and working in refugee camps with Bosnian

00:30:50.880 refugees, kids who'd lost their parents during the ethnic cleansing. I worked in Rwanda with kids

00:30:57.480 whose parents had died during the genocide. I worked in Cambodia with kids who'd lost limbs to landmines.

00:31:02.740 In the SEAL teams, I were obviously taken on difficult, dangerous missions. And, you know,

00:31:07.600 unfortunately, I, like almost every veteran who served in the global war on terrorism, you lose

00:31:11.840 friends. And so when I think about public service, and I think about, you know, yeah, of course,

00:31:18.780 every time we put something out on Facebook, there are going to be people who write nasty things

00:31:22.900 to us. Like, is that going to allow me, am I going to be so afraid of what some person might say on

00:31:30.340 social media that I'm not willing to go out and help kids in the Missouri foster care system?

00:31:36.440 Am I going to be so afraid of what somebody says on Twitter that I'm not going to go out and fight

00:31:42.580 for jobs for people? At the end of the day, that would be just selfish. And the reason why, again,

00:31:49.620 we talk about philosophy, the reason why the ancients put such an emphasis on courage was

00:31:54.000 because you had to have courage in order to be of service to others. You had to have courage in

00:32:00.040 order to do your duty in the community. And what I'd say to millennials and to anyone who feels that

00:32:05.600 way is, hey, it's absolutely natural and it's fine. It's normal to feel that kind of fear. Nobody wants

00:32:11.160 to be criticized. Nobody wants to have a newspaper editorial written about how bad the thing is that

00:32:18.340 you're doing. But if you really want to help people, you're going to be criticized. So get used

00:32:22.940 to it. Do hard things, do difficult things, and find a way to serve other people.

00:32:27.000 So now you are governor. You've been at it for a year. I just got done reading the book about

00:32:30.400 George Washington and his reading habits throughout his career. He's a self-educated guy. A lot of people

00:32:34.740 don't know about the Washington. He didn't get any formal schooling. And the author talked about how

00:32:39.200 Washington would change his reading depending on his station life. So he read when he was general

00:32:43.740 of the Continental Army. He read a lot of military treatises. When he became president, his reading

00:32:49.700 habits changed. I'm curious, A, do you still have time for reading? Do you make time for reading?

00:32:54.720 And what are you reading to be an effective executive?

00:32:57.300 Yeah. So I make time for reading. I think that making time for reading is just as important as

00:33:02.960 making time for exercise. It is essential if you're going to lead well.

00:33:09.200 Because you have to always find ways to not just act, but also to reflect.

00:33:15.740 Right? If you're going to be a wise leader, and again, the ancients talked about this,

00:33:20.200 or something, you know, this idea of phronesis, of practical wisdom, that there's a certain wisdom

00:33:25.740 that comes from action in the world. It's not something that you can get from books, but it is

00:33:31.040 something that is aided by reflection. So you have to take action, and you have to think about it.

00:33:36.760 So, you know, every day, we are out doing stuff, and we're supporting law enforcement. We're meeting

00:33:41.620 with firefighters who just went down to Texas, and we're saving lives, and we're thanking them.

00:33:45.880 We're meeting with the folks on our public safety team, talking about how we can respond

00:33:49.760 to emergencies. We're meeting with a team talking about our agenda to make this the best state in

00:33:54.560 the country for veterans, or to help kids in foster care. So we're always acting, but then you also have

00:33:59.280 to make that time for reflection. And again, for me, I've always found that biography is really

00:34:06.500 helpful because it helps to put your own struggles in perspective. So right now, I'm finishing a

00:34:11.120 biography on Alexander the Great. Really, really good, good biography. I just finished the Andrew

00:34:16.880 Roberts biography of Napoleon. Before that, I read a biography of General MacArthur. Really,

00:34:23.300 really good, good biographies, good stories. In parallel with that, I've actually been reading

00:34:29.600 some Ernest Hemingway again, which I hadn't read for a long time. I mean, some of these books I

00:34:34.820 hadn't picked up since college, but I was moving a box of old books, and I saw some of the old

00:34:40.040 Hemingway stuff. I pulled it out, and it's just good to do that kind of reading, and it prompts good

00:34:46.980 reflection. Well, like, what have you—which Hemingway did you read? Was it Farewell to Arms?

00:34:51.460 So actually, so there's—no, I pulled out—I pulled out—this is, again, everybody's kind of

00:34:57.060 first Hemingway in high school, old man in the sea, right? It's just a classic story about a guy

00:35:04.540 who's engaged in one of the fights of his life. And it's difficult, and it's hard, and he's got to

00:35:12.680 reflect on his own purpose in the middle of this tremendous battle against terrible odds.

00:35:18.500 So from that Alexander the Great biography, what lessons on statesmanship or being an executive

00:35:25.540 did you pull? So look, I mean, one of the great things about the Alexander the Great biography is

00:35:30.060 if you think about the Macedonian, like, conception of generalship, it was very much a conception of

00:35:36.380 generals who went to the front lines. So Alexander was clearly the leader. He was clearly the general,

00:35:43.480 but he was also in many ways first among equals. This was a guy who himself was the first guy

00:35:50.980 climbing the ladders as they were, you know, assaulting—as they were assaulting cities,

00:35:56.800 right? At the very front. And everyone saw that kind of frontline leadership. In the same way, you know,

00:36:03.280 and this is something I've been doing not just in the SEAL teams at The Mission Continues,

00:36:07.240 but I also do as governor, I think it's important to go to the front lines. You have to go to the

00:36:12.800 very place where people are hurting. You got to go to the very place where there are problems. You got

00:36:17.700 to go to the very place where there are challenges, and you have to be present. So, you know, when there

00:36:23.480 is a tornado and it hits a state of Missouri, we go and we visit with people and we ask them what

00:36:29.800 they need. We talk to our first responders. We figure out what they need. We had historic flooding

00:36:34.340 in the state of Missouri. We went down and we visited county courthouses that had been underwater

00:36:39.080 and people who lost their homes. We just had another big incident in the state of Missouri around

00:36:45.520 this—around a trial. We had to support our law enforcement officers. We went out and we met with

00:36:50.860 all of these men and women on the front lines to shake their hands, to be there with them. And so that's

00:36:56.200 just one kind of lesson that comes from that, but it's just an affirmation of how important it is

00:37:01.760 that you have leaders who want to go to the front lines. You love biographies. I love biographies.

00:37:05.500 I'm always looking for new recommendations. What is like your all-time favorite, like two favorite

00:37:09.600 biographies? Man, that's a good question. God, that's a good question. Here's—I'll do the Tim

00:37:14.240 Ferris thing. If you were to gift a book, he does that. What book would you gift to somebody if it was

00:37:19.920 a biography? Man, if it was a biography. So the thing is, I'm going to—this is going to sound like

00:37:25.460 there's not just one answer, but what I always try and do is recommend books for people given the

00:37:32.260 specific place where they're at in their life. It's kind of like how George Washington was saying,

00:37:35.820 like, his reading changed. Like, I actually recommend different biographies for people who

00:37:40.300 are at different points. And specifically, what I try to do is—and this sounds like Washington had

00:37:45.360 the same philosophy—is, you know, if somebody were saying to me, for example, look, I want to be a

00:37:50.640 writer. Then, like, look at a great biography of Hemingway. Look at a great biography of F. Scott

00:37:55.920 Fitzgerald. Like, see how much trouble these guys had putting together their masterpieces. If somebody

00:38:01.340 said, you know, I want to be a great general, I want to be a great leader, like, read a biography of

00:38:06.540 General Marshall or read one of the biographies of General Eisenhower and General Marshall in World

00:38:11.400 War II. So I try—what I try and do is recommend books that I think are going to help people given

00:38:18.400 who they want to become. I like that. So let's talk about being a dad and being a busy executive.

00:38:25.640 So you got two young kids. I imagine there's not too many other governors who have—well,

00:38:30.280 how old are you? One of them's one years old, right? Yeah, yeah. So Jacob's one. He's actually

00:38:34.700 17 months right now. And then Joshua is three years old. Right. Are there any other governors that

00:38:39.480 have young children like that? Are you pretty much the only one? You know, I don't know if anybody has

00:38:43.320 kids who are that young. There might be a few who have a couple of younger kids, but most of them,

00:38:49.600 you know, most of the governors are— Didn't have a kid while campaigning.

00:38:52.500 ...older than me. Most of them did not have a kid a couple months before the primary.

00:38:57.320 So I know we have a lot of dads listening. You obviously have a very busy, packed schedule. How

00:39:02.520 do you make time for family? So one of the great things, actually, about this job is that we're

00:39:08.340 very disciplined as a family about creating family time. So, you know, our schedule is pretty simple.

00:39:15.180 Almost every morning, I get up early with my buddy. I go. We crush a workout. I get back.

00:39:22.020 I get back just a little bit after—it's usually just a little bit after the kids have woken up.

00:39:27.600 And then I spend the morning with them. I wrestle with them. I play with them. I read books. I was

00:39:32.460 doing it just this morning with Joshua. We're reading a couple of books, Berenstain Bears and

00:39:38.240 Critter books. So we're doing that with them. And then I make them breakfast with Sheena. And then,

00:39:45.540 you know, like this morning, I took Joshua to preschool and then dropped him off at preschool

00:39:49.740 and then came over here to the office. Then I always try to get home for dinner. Now, occasionally,

00:39:55.900 we will have times when I travel. And when I'm traveling and if I've got an evening event,

00:40:01.160 I'm not able to make it back for that. But most of the time, Brett, even if we have an event,

00:40:06.360 say, at the governor's mansion or something like that, I will end that event with enough time for

00:40:11.400 me to go upstairs and put the boys to bed, to read to them, give them a bath, and put them to bed.

00:40:15.760 I just think it's really important that they get that time. I was so lucky. My dad really made being

00:40:22.060 a dad a priority. So my dad, my grandfather, my paternal grandfather, was a World War II veteran

00:40:28.100 who served in the Navy. He died when my dad was six years old. And so my dad grew up without a

00:40:35.940 father. He had a, you know, single mom and two sisters who worked as a shoe saleswoman who raised

00:40:41.480 my dad. And I remember waking up, you know, and I'd see every day, my dad would wake up at four

00:40:48.480 something in the morning to either take the bus or the carpool to work so that he could be home early

00:40:54.760 to be with me and my two brothers. And, you know, over his dresser, he always had that picture of

00:41:01.760 my grandfather in his Navy uniform with his World War II medals. And so my dad really treasured the

00:41:08.460 fact of the opportunity that he had to be a dad. And I'm so grateful for that. And I know that,

00:41:15.060 you know, my most important mission in life is to be a great dad to my kids.

00:41:19.960 So, Governor, this has been a great conversation. Before we leave, any parting words for our listeners

00:41:24.260 about, just based on the experience you've had campaigning, being a governor, you know,

00:41:28.980 for people who are still on the fence of being, you know, getting active in the, in public life?

00:41:33.200 Yeah. You know what? Just, I'd say to everybody, like, find a way to get involved that makes a

00:41:39.080 difference. And it doesn't have to be an electoral politics, but get involved in your community.

00:41:44.800 Find a way to get engaged. You know, Aristotle talked about politics as kind of the art and science

00:41:50.760 of creating and sustaining human communities, right? So how do, how do you find a way to do

00:41:58.540 your duty to your country, your duty to your community? Find a way to push yourself, to challenge

00:42:03.380 yourself. And what I would say is a lot of times people doubt whether or not they have something

00:42:08.960 to offer. And everyone does. Every single one of your listeners has some kind of wisdom,

00:42:14.960 some kind of experience, some kind of ability that other people need. Find a way, challenge yourself

00:42:20.540 to get involved in your community, challenge yourself to get involved in this, and you will

00:42:25.940 find a way to make a difference. And as you do, we will all be stronger for what you've contributed

00:42:31.260 to it, to all of us. Well, Governor Eric Rydens, thank you so much for your time. It's been a

00:42:34.560 pleasure. Yeah, you're welcome, Brett. Great to be on with you, man. Thank you. My guest today was

00:42:37.460 Governor Eric Rydens. He's the governor of the great state of Missouri. And if you haven't already,

00:42:41.320 check out his books, Resilience and the Heart and the Fist. They're both available on amazon.com and

00:42:45.440 bookstores everywhere. You can also find out more information about the foundation he started and founded for

00:42:49.960 veterans. It's The Mission Continues. And go to missioncontinues.org to find out more information

00:42:53.940 about that. Also, check out our show notes at aom.is slash Governor Greitens, where you can find links

00:42:58.640 to resources. We can delve deeper into this topic.

00:43:12.620 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,

00:43:17.300 make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And if you enjoy

00:43:21.180 the podcast, I've gotten something out of it. I'd appreciate if you take one minute to give us

00:43:24.180 a review on iTunes or Stitcher. That helps out a lot. And if you've already done that,

00:43:27.240 please recommend the show to your friends. That's the best way to get the word out about the show.

00:43:31.140 The more, the merrier. As always, thank you for your continued support. And until next time,

00:43:35.120 this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.

00:43:47.300 Thank you.

The Art of Manliness - November 09, 2017

#355： Leadership and Public Service With Gov. Eric Greitens

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