The Art of Manliness - #367： The Motivation Myth

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. Well, it's

00:00:18.240 a new year and you've likely set some new goals for yourself and you just need some

00:00:21.720 motivation to work on them, right? So you read motivational quotes on Instagram, listen

00:00:26.100 to motivational podcaster, yell at you for 30 minutes while you commute to work and you

00:00:29.620 repeat affirmations about crushing it every morning and night and you start feeling motivated,

00:00:33.900 really motivated. You start to take steps towards accomplishing your goal, but then a few days

00:00:38.460 later, you're not feeling so motivated because you're not feeling it. You stop working on

00:00:42.320 those goals and then you start feeling guilty about not working on your goals. So you return

00:00:45.840 to reading motivational quotes on Instagram to help pump yourself back up to get going

00:00:49.560 again. Sound familiar? Well, if so, my guest today argues that you've likely fallen into

00:00:54.120 the motivation myth. His name is Jeff Hayden and his latest book is The Motivation Myth,

00:00:58.120 How High Achievers Really Set Themselves Up to Win. And today on the show, Jeff explains

00:01:02.280 what the motivation myth is and why it's so alluring. We then discuss the real secret of

00:01:06.500 lasting motivation and no, it's not reading motivational quotes or listening to motivational

00:01:11.060 speakers. Jeff then walks us through specific tactics you can start doing today to help tap

00:01:15.500 in this genuine catalyst for achieving your goals. If you're a motivational junkie that doesn't

00:01:19.500 have a lot to show for all your inspired intentions, this episode is for you. After the show's

00:01:23.460 over, check out the show notes at aom.is slash motivation myth. And now Jeff joins me via

00:01:28.120 clearcast.io. Jeff Hayden, welcome to the show. Thank you, Brad. It's an honor to be with you.

00:01:37.580 So you got a book out called The Motivation Myth, How High Achievers Really Set Themselves Up to Win.

00:01:43.540 Tell us a bit about your background and what was the impetus behind writing The Motivation Myth?

00:01:47.500 Well, I'm going to answer part of that question. My background is really boring.

00:01:52.460 We're going to skip right on past that and get to the fun part. Although, all right, I'll give you

00:01:57.120 a snapshot. I worked in manufacturing for 20 years, decided I wanted to write instead,

00:02:02.460 worked really hard at it as a side hustle, got to the point where I thought I could take a chance.

00:02:07.140 I bet on myself and have done fairly well with it. So the impetus for writing the book, I was sitting

00:02:13.540 with Kirk Hammett, the guitarist in Metallica, and I know that's a shameless name drop. And we were

00:02:18.780 talking about their 40 years and 100 million albums sold and all of that cool stuff. And I said,

00:02:24.020 you know, it must be really neat to have started out with this goal in mind and actually be there.

00:02:29.760 And he looked at me and he said, dude, I never cared about being a rock star or anything else.

00:02:34.000 I wanted to learn to play a guitar better. And I wanted to be able to play well enough that I could

00:02:38.400 play with my friends. And that's still what he cares about. And so I thought about that. And then

00:02:44.280 I thought about all the people that I know who feel stuck or stagnant or who haven't been able to

00:02:50.040 reach any of the goals or dreams that they have. And almost every one of them will tell me, well,

00:02:55.740 I haven't found my passion yet, or I haven't found that motivation that I need, or I haven't.

00:03:00.380 It was always this, they were waiting for some lightning bolt to strike them. And then I contrasted

00:03:06.180 that with Kirk. And I'm lucky enough that I've gotten to talk to a lot of really successful

00:03:10.260 people. So I thought, you know, I've talked to Richard Branson, Venus Williams, Roger Penske,

00:03:14.440 Jessica Alba, Jimmy Johnson, the NASCAR driver. I've got this huge list of people and none of them

00:03:20.100 ever talked about a lightning bolt of motivation or inspiration that started them on their path.

00:03:27.200 They all just said, I'm interested in this. It seems like fun. It seems like it might be rewarding.

00:03:32.960 Seems like something I might want to do. Let me go start that and see where it leads.

00:03:37.940 And so that really is the impetus behind writing the book. There are so many people that sit and wait

00:03:43.560 for that big dose of motivation or passion or inspiration to strike. And what really works is

00:03:51.300 if you just create that on your own, and we can talk about how you do that, but that's the main

00:03:56.520 premise of the book is that you don't have to wait for motivation. You can create your own.

00:04:00.180 Right. I mean, so what are, so besides that idea, that motivation, you don't need to wait for

00:04:04.300 motivation. You can create it. I mean, what are some other myths about motivation that we have?

00:04:10.100 And why are those myths? I mean, that's the more, like, that's one thing, but the more important

00:04:13.500 question is like, why, why do we believe them? And like, why are they so alluring?

00:04:18.400 Part of the reason is that it is tempting to rationalize that the reason you haven't done

00:04:25.160 something that you really want to do, or if you're sitting around thinking, wow, I would like to

00:04:28.640 accomplish something great, whatever that might be. It's easy to think, well, I just haven't figured

00:04:33.920 out what that is yet, or I haven't found that motivation that I need that will get me there.

00:04:38.400 So that's a tempting rationale that you can use that can let you sit and say, well, maybe I'm,

00:04:43.440 maybe it's better if I wait because I need to wait for that. And you know what waiting does,

00:04:47.380 it just means you're sitting, you're stuck in the very same place. But that out of the people that I

00:04:51.780 talk to, that seems to be why they're stuck. They're waiting for motivation because it's something

00:04:56.380 that's going to occur to them. Right. And the other, I mean, the other problem with motivation,

00:04:59.820 you talk about this in the book is that motivation is a feeling, right? And like feelings, like we all

00:05:06.340 know are fleeting. Like you can feel happy one moment, then sad the next, and then you're not sad.

00:05:11.920 And I think the same thing goes for motivation too. Oh, absolutely. If you look at someone who has

00:05:17.160 achieved something really big and you think it's easy to think, well, but yeah, they had this special

00:05:22.960 something that I don't have, whether it's talent or experience or connections or the list could go

00:05:28.100 on and on, but they've got something special. Really. They didn't have something special when

00:05:32.400 they started, they got to a special place because they put in the work and the effort and the time

00:05:38.840 to achieve whatever it was they wanted to achieve. So that motivation side of it, where

00:05:45.560 it's like, wow, if I, as long as I'm motivated, I can keep going. That doesn't sustain you across

00:05:50.880 that huge journey that you have to take between here, which is I'm starting out to do something

00:05:55.840 new and there, which is where you've achieved something really big. It doesn't carry you across

00:06:00.220 because it's a feeling that you can't sustain. What you can sustain is every day doing what you

00:06:06.460 set out to do, accomplishing that, maybe not your huge goal, but what you wanted to do today that

00:06:12.640 will get you there. And then feeling good about that success, which gives you the motivation

00:06:17.360 tomorrow to get up and do it again, then you're successful. Then you feel motivated to do it

00:06:22.720 again. So it creates this really cool virtuous cycle or loop of success, gratification, and

00:06:28.460 motivation. And you get these little doses every day. So you don't need that big feeling because

00:06:33.280 you're going to get little drips of feeling every time.

00:06:35.720 Right. So let's, okay. So we want to get into this virtuous cycle where you do something,

00:06:40.660 you experience a bit of success and that motivates you to keep going. The question is like,

00:06:45.760 how do you bootstrap that? How do you get that going when you like, because like it's the chicken

00:06:50.040 or egg, like, I don't feel like doing this thing. So I'm not going to do the thing. So how do you

00:06:54.340 force yourself to do the thing, even though you don't feel like it?

00:06:57.200 Well, hopefully whatever it is you've decided to do is at least something you're moderately

00:07:01.580 interested in, although it doesn't have to be. And we can talk about that in a second,

00:07:04.960 but what you have to do. And the only way to get past that bootstrap part is you have to say,

00:07:10.440 okay, if I want to, I don't know, let's use the classic example. I want to train to run a marathon

00:07:15.240 and I've never run one. I've never run a mile even. You have to get through that week to week

00:07:20.800 and a half period where it feels insurmountable and it's really hard. And so what you have to do

00:07:27.380 is commit to yourself that no matter what, I'm going to create a plan for my first week and a

00:07:32.780 half to two weeks, and I am going to follow that plan. And if I get to the end of the two weeks

00:07:37.560 and I decide this is not for me, okay, you can make that decision if you want to.

00:07:43.160 Invariably though, if you get to that two weeks, you will have improved a little bit. You'll feel

00:07:48.340 a little bit better about what you're doing. You'll have internalized the habit a little bit

00:07:52.480 and then it won't seem like such a hard thing to keep going. But there is that commitment that you

00:07:57.740 have to make to yourself where you just say, you know what, I am not going to stop for that two weeks.

00:08:04.200 I'm going to give it that long because those first few days are awful. You know how that goes.

00:08:08.080 Right. So I guess the success you're experiencing in that moment then isn't

00:08:13.300 that you ran for two weeks. It's like, okay, you experienced this because I ran today,

00:08:17.980 right? Like you, you try to really savor that and that feels good. So you do it the next day.

00:08:23.500 So, I mean, that's kind of the interesting, like, it's kind of a weird paradox. Like,

00:08:26.620 so you talk about in the book, in order to stay motivated, you have to forget about your goals

00:08:31.400 or don't focus on them as much. But at the same time, you have to create really small goals that

00:08:36.540 you're trying to go after that aren't, that aren't like really related to that big goal. I mean,

00:08:41.480 they are related, but they're not. Yeah. That's that we're back to that here and there thing.

00:08:46.560 If you want to run that marathon and you've never really run it all, when you go jogging the first

00:08:52.220 day and you stagger your way through your first mile, if you look at your whole goal, which is to

00:08:57.380 someday run 26.2 or three or whatever it is miles, it is way too far from here to there for you to

00:09:04.180 even imagine getting there. And instead of being motivating, it's incredibly defeating. And in all

00:09:10.300 likelihood, you will give up. So the first step in achieving anything big is to figure out what that

00:09:16.080 is and what it looks like, but then to say, okay, that's my goal. Now I'm going to focus on the process

00:09:22.520 that will allow me to get there. And it's almost like you set the end goal aside and say,

00:09:27.100 I know that's out there, but it's somewhere in the horizon and it's soft and fuzzy. And I can't,

00:09:32.480 I'm not even going to think about that. I'm going to think about today and tomorrow

00:09:35.780 and accomplishing those things. And if you keep going and you keep following your process and

00:09:41.500 you revise and adapted some to make it fit you and to make sure that it's even as successful as it can

00:09:47.280 be. Someday you pop your head up like a gopher and you look and you say, wow, I'm actually really

00:09:52.600 close to where I was trying to go. And of course, that's a really fun and motivating moment,

00:09:56.460 but then you have to put your head back down and say, I'm not going to worry about that.

00:10:00.080 I'm just going to keep focusing on my daily tasks. Here to there is the quickest way to feel

00:10:06.800 defeated and to quit. If you focus on it, if you just focus on today and you do what you have to do

00:10:12.480 today, you're golden. Okay. So you're not saying don't make goals. You're saying make,

00:10:17.360 make the goal and the goal directs the process and the process is what you should focus on.

00:10:21.860 And then you forget it and you focus on process.

00:10:24.680 Right. So it's kind of like that, was it Thoreau or Emerson said something like that,

00:10:28.100 where it's like build your castles in the cloud, then build the foundation underneath it or something

00:10:32.520 like that. Yeah, exactly. He said it much better than I just did. But that is the premise.

00:10:39.240 So yeah, this is interesting. This idea that, okay, you set goals and kind of forget about them,

00:10:43.040 get caught up in the process. And you talk about this interesting research. So it kind of goes

00:10:48.020 contrary or against the grain of most, you know, goal setting advice or success advice is that,

00:10:53.120 okay, you make a goal, you need to tell as many people as possible. So they'll hold you accountable.

00:10:58.040 And then you actually have highlighted research like, no, actually, it's going to make you

00:11:01.340 less likely to do the thing you said you were going to do. So what's going on there?

00:11:06.180 Well, the difference is in how you describe what it is you want to do. So I live in Virginia,

00:11:13.280 midway roughly on the Appalachian Trail. It's this long hike, 2,200 miles from Georgia to Maine,

00:11:19.740 and lots of people do it every year. And it's one of those like bucket list kind of things for hikers.

00:11:25.100 So if let's say that you decide you want to hike the Appalachian Trail, if you tell your friends,

00:11:30.880 hey, I'm going to hike the Appalachian Trail, they'll say, oh, that's really cool. What's involved?

00:11:35.300 And then you start talking about, you know, the pack you'll have and the nickname you're going to get

00:11:38.920 on the trail. And you start talking about all the experiences that go along with that.

00:11:43.680 Research shows that the feelings that you get from talking about it actually make you feel like

00:11:50.800 you're part of the way there, which means that you are much less likely to actually do that because

00:11:56.040 all that gratification that you might somehow have gotten has gone away. So while you think you're

00:12:00.900 telling people, hey, hold me to this because peer pressure is a wonderful thing. And, you know,

00:12:06.000 I'm going to hike the Appalachian Trail, which you're actually doing. I mean, there's there's

00:12:10.200 research. At the end of research, the researchers say when other people take notice of an individual's

00:12:16.880 identity related behavioral intention, this gives the individual a premature sense of possessing the

00:12:22.220 inspired to identity. So that's researcher speak, which I can't write that way. But in my words,

00:12:28.140 it means that you're already getting a big kick out of people thinking that you're hiking the

00:12:31.940 Appalachian Trail. So they're actually less motivated to actually do it.

00:12:36.060 So the key to that, if you feel peer pressure is important to you and you want people to hold

00:12:41.720 you accountable, then don't tell them what you can tell them your goal, but then right away say,

00:12:47.900 and so here is what I'm going to do for the next X period of time in order to get there and share

00:12:53.620 what your process is. And then you say to them, hold me accountable to my process. So if you're doing

00:12:59.600 the trail and your process is OK for the next week, I'm going to hike four miles a day. And on Saturday,

00:13:04.260 I'm going to do an eight mile hike up this mountain. Tell people that and then say, hold me accountable

00:13:09.680 to that. Don't say I'm going to hike the Appalachian Trail because you're already experiencing some of

00:13:15.520 the fun. It's like that research that says that people get some major satisfaction out of planning

00:13:22.160 a vacation. And it's almost it almost makes them as happy as having taken the vacation. It's kind of the

00:13:29.360 same thing. It's aspirational. So if you like peer pressure, share your process with people and tell

00:13:35.940 them to hold you accountable to that. Gotcha. So again, focus on the process. OK, let's talk about

00:13:41.480 the process a bit. So how do you go about developing a process that one, facilitates motivation,

00:13:49.260 and to lead you to achieving that big picture goal you have? Probably the easiest way is I don't know

00:13:57.720 if you know the Monty Python movie Life of Brian, but there's the scene where Brian is telling the

00:14:02.620 crowd that they're all individuals. And one person raises his hand and says, I'm not. We are all

00:14:08.600 individuals. But at the same time, there are all these perfectly good wheels out there that we don't

00:14:14.120 have to reinvent. So the easiest thing to do is pick someone who has achieved what you want to

00:14:20.400 achieve. And forget about all the things that they brought to it, like, again, education, experience,

00:14:27.520 money, whatever it might be, and just focus on what they did to get there. Create, figure out what that

00:14:33.520 process is, and then follow that. At some point, yeah, you'll deviate a little bit, you'll revise it,

00:14:39.140 you'll shape it a little bit to suit you. But in large part, what works for other people also works

00:14:45.800 for us if we give it a chance. If you fall prey to the, yeah, but I'm special and unique, and I've

00:14:51.520 got all these special qualities about me, so my process has to be unique to me. Well, you're never

00:14:57.060 going to get there because you're going to make something that you want to do and not things that

00:15:01.380 you need to do. So for me, the best way is to just look around and say, who has done this,

00:15:06.520 and who has done this really well, and I'm going to follow their process. I don't have to be them,

00:15:11.560 but I will do the things that they did. Gosh, this is the chapter in the book you have. It's

00:15:15.580 find a pro and not a coach. Yep. Yeah, and I've gotten a lot of pushback on that, especially from

00:15:21.780 people who are executive coaches. Of course you would, right? But the point is, the point that I'm

00:15:29.820 making is, let's use my marathon example again. Say I decide I want to run a marathon. If I go to my

00:15:35.120 local gym and talk to the trainer there and say, hey, I want to run a marathon, his process is going

00:15:41.260 to be to assess where I am now, talk to me about my goals, talk to me about things that are unique

00:15:46.940 to me, and then he's going to create this customized plan that will theoretically get me there.

00:15:51.980 But what it will do is take into account all the things that I say that I can't do or don't want to

00:15:57.400 do, and I will end up with some plan that basically is sugar-coated. What I did when I decided I wanted

00:16:04.580 to ride this Gran Fondo, a Gran Fondo is like a mass participation cycling event. It's not a race,

00:16:10.040 but, well, people do race. And it was 100 and some miles and 11,000 feet of climbing, and it was this

00:16:16.080 disastrous thing that I had no business of thinking of trying, which was the perfect reason to try it.

00:16:21.060 And I had four months to train, so I went and got a guy who's a local mountain bike professional who's

00:16:26.700 won national championships and almost maybe Olympics. And I said, hey, I want to do this

00:16:31.640 thing. I got four months. If you were me, what would you do? At first, he looked at me, laughed,

00:16:36.500 and he said, well, I wouldn't even try. And then he said, no, but seriously, if that's all the time

00:16:40.860 you have, here's what you need to do. And the first day I went riding, I had to ride for two and a half

00:16:45.600 hours, which was hot death for two hours and 29 minutes of it, because I had not written at all.

00:16:51.880 But in the course of that, by pushing myself and doing what I had to do and not what I kind of

00:16:58.400 wanted to do, I actually got there. And so to sum that all up, I realize it's kind of long-winded,

00:17:05.000 but to sum all that up, a pro is a person who has done the things that you want to do or done that one

00:17:12.440 thing that you want to do. They know what it's like. They know what it takes. They know the steps,

00:17:16.580 and they will tell you without any sugarcoating, here is what you have to do. A coach oftentimes

00:17:22.800 will coddle you and sugarcoat it and try to customize it for your own special needs and

00:17:29.700 all of that kind of stuff. And you're much less likely to get there because you're starting out

00:17:33.960 with limitations that you think you have, which you really don't. I think our biggest limitations

00:17:38.780 are self-imposed ones. And if you find a way to get past that and just say, tell me what I have to

00:17:43.640 do and I will do it, you can go a really long way. Yeah. It's an interesting point. Yeah. Coaches

00:17:49.020 might sugarcoat things. They want to keep you as a customer. Well, there is that part of it too,

00:17:53.940 but they're also supposed to be kind and cuddly and responsive to your needs. And none of those are

00:17:59.760 bad things in and of themselves. But if you're trying to do something really, really big and you

00:18:04.880 want to do it in a relatively short period of time, there's not a lot of room for sugarcoating.

00:18:09.480 Right. I guess if you're going to look for a coach, look for a coach that says, yes,

00:18:12.900 I fire people, fire clients all the time. If they're not doing what I say, that that's a good

00:18:17.720 sign of a coach who was going to help you become a pro. Yeah. I did. I did a thing. I've been doing

00:18:23.140 a series. I write for Inc magazine and I've been doing a series where I take a successful person

00:18:27.500 who fitness is a part of their, of their success. Not that they are athletes necessarily, but the

00:18:34.400 fitness helps them with whatever their profession or their goals are. And so I, I got hooked up with

00:18:41.000 Jimmy Johnson's triathlon trainer. And I said, okay, what do I do for this week? And he, he emailed

00:18:46.940 me the schedule and I emailed it back and said, seriously. And he said, well, if you don't want

00:18:50.800 to do it, we don't have to do this. I thought, okay, that's true. I don't know why I'm whining.

00:18:55.880 I asked for this. Why am I complaining? So you're right. People who are willing to say,

00:19:01.460 if you're not willing to do what you need to do, then probably this isn't the best use of our time.

00:19:07.060 Yeah. That's the perfect person. Right. So let's talk about this process more. So you

00:19:12.040 establish your process. You, you figure out your goal is, say your goal is to run a marathon. You

00:19:15.480 come up with a program for yourself to get that goal and then you forget about it. What can you do

00:19:21.420 to ensure that you follow the process on a day-to-day basis? Is it about, you know, scheduling it on your

00:19:26.360 calendar? Is it creating a ritual that people talk about a lot? What can you do on a day-to-day basis to

00:19:31.960 ensure you follow the process? There's a lot of stuff. I would say that the first place to go

00:19:37.500 is to look for any area that would cause you to, to lose the willpower side of it. I think we all

00:19:45.120 have a finite amount of willpower. And so if you're making tons of decisions throughout the day that

00:19:49.920 require you to actually make a decision that needs some willpower associated with it, then by the time

00:19:57.300 you get to whatever it is you have to do that may be really hard, you might be out of oomph.

00:20:02.360 I like to, at least from my point of view, I like to do things, whatever is most important to me for

00:20:08.080 that day. I like to do it first. Now that this is a personal goal, that might be hard to do, especially

00:20:12.320 if you have a job in a profession and stuff. But I guess the best way for me to say that is this is

00:20:18.060 one case where people are unique and individual. So if I take a step backwards and deconstruct and say,

00:20:24.260 what in the past have I done? If I've done something successfully, what did I do to create

00:20:30.060 the environment to make sure that I did that? And apply that to whatever it is you're trying to do.

00:20:35.240 And then the other part of it is to do the Simon Sinek, what is my why? Why am I trying to do this?

00:20:41.060 What is the reason? If you're trying to get, I don't know, if you're trying to get fitter because

00:20:46.160 you want to look better, that may be a goal that works for the Kardashians. For the rest of us,

00:20:51.200 looking better is too fuzzy of a thing. So maybe you pick out, I want to complete this.

00:20:59.200 I don't know. I want to run a, I want to do a small triathlon in the process of doing that.

00:21:03.180 You will look better because you will get fitter. Or maybe it's, I want to lose 15 pounds, or maybe

00:21:07.980 it's, I want to be healthier because I want to be a better parent to my kids. There's all kinds of

00:21:11.540 reasons for why, but finding that why is a really important thing. And it carries you through those

00:21:17.420 little loans. So what does refining the process look like? So you say you're working the process,

00:21:21.960 but it's not giving you the results you were hoping, like, should you refine on a daily basis,

00:21:28.800 a weekly basis? What does that look like? If you've gotten the process together, like say you've,

00:21:34.820 say you've gotten a pro to help you create a process, or say you've just really worked hard

00:21:38.860 to create, to deconstruct someone else's process and follow it, then you need to give it more time

00:21:44.720 than you think. It's really tempting to say, wow, this isn't working because again, you're following

00:21:49.220 back on that special thing. So there, I, to me, if you start something on, on a process you've been

00:21:55.140 given, or if your pro gives you guidance, if you don't give it, I don't know if you, if your journey

00:21:59.320 is going to take you six or eight months and you don't give it at least a month to shake through it

00:22:03.200 and find out where you stand, then I think you're making a mistake and you're, you're probably going to

00:22:07.860 rationalize the changes you make rather than making them for positive reasons. But there does come a time

00:22:13.600 when you can look and say, I wonder if I'm getting as much out of this as I can. With the cycling

00:22:18.020 example, I was in my early fifties when I did that and I'm 57 now. So I was in my early fifties

00:22:25.200 and the conventional wisdom was that as you get older, you need more recovery time, which I think

00:22:31.500 is true in most cases, but I actually do better with fitness things if I have less recovery time.

00:22:37.580 So I basically wrote six days a week instead of three to four to five. And my body responded better

00:22:43.320 to that. So there is some experimenting you can do, but you have to experiment objectively.

00:22:48.480 So if you're, again, if we use a fitness thing, if you're lifting weights and trying to get stronger

00:22:52.540 and your gains have started to plateau, you can change your process slightly, but then actually

00:22:58.940 look at the results that you get to identify not how it feels. So if it feels easier or it feels better

00:23:06.580 to work out a certain way, but that's not getting you the goal that you wanted, well then I don't care

00:23:12.580 about your feelings. I care about your outcome. So I think the rule of thumb is wait longer than

00:23:19.400 you think to revise a process because it may just be a matter of time that is what you need.

00:23:26.800 Or the problem could be like, you're not even actually doing the process, right? You think

00:23:30.720 you are, but you're not.

00:23:32.380 And most of the time that is what happens. It's, you know, yeah, I'm supposed to be doing these

00:23:36.060 things, but if you really objectively look at it, you're not. There's that. That happens with like

00:23:40.640 diets all the time. Would people actually track what they eat? I think the, I think research shows

00:23:45.960 they take in like 25 to 30% more calories than they thought they did. And, you know, all of that

00:23:51.400 stuff is off. So you have to have a process that's clear enough that it has objective measurements to

00:23:58.640 say, Hey, I did these things. And then you can look at the outcome.

00:24:02.480 So let's talk about some other tips you put in the book about how to stick to the process.

00:24:06.780 And one of them I found really interesting is this idea of you don't say I can't, right? But instead

00:24:15.100 you say, I don't. And that actually can have a big effect. Can you talk about that a bit?

00:24:19.600 Yeah. There's this, these researchers did a study and they broke people into groups and there was

00:24:25.860 this simple temptation that they were all faced with. And so they gave them a cope. They gave each

00:24:31.860 group of coping mechanism. So one group was told to say, I can't do whatever that temptation was.

00:24:37.520 Another was told to say, I don't do whatever that was. And then there was a third group that didn't

00:24:42.160 use any kind of strategy at all. So the participants that said, I can't gave into the temptation over 60%

00:24:50.460 of the time. The I don't people only gave in about 36% of the time, which is a pretty clear difference.

00:24:56.320 So then they went a step farther and they gave them each a, they told them to set a personal health

00:25:02.160 goal and like a fitness goal. And then said, when it comes time to do your workouts, if you're

00:25:07.940 struggling, you, one group said, I don't miss workouts. One group said, I can't miss workouts.

00:25:13.160 And one group was given no coping mechanism at all. So the results of that after two weeks,

00:25:19.420 eight out of 10 of the, I don't people stuck to their goal. They didn't miss workouts.

00:25:24.280 Here's where it gets funny. Three out of 10 of the people that had no coping mechanism,

00:25:30.400 they stuck to it. So still, okay. Only one out of 10 of the, I can't miss a workout group

00:25:37.320 actually stuck to their goal. So saying I can't was a worse tool for sticking to something and not

00:25:45.480 doing anything at all. And the reason for that, I can give you more research speak, but I'll,

00:25:50.060 I don't want to bore you with it. But the basic premise was I can't relates to a choice like,

00:25:56.920 because I can't, but you know what, actually I can, I want to, and maybe this time I will.

00:26:02.740 Whereas I don't was more of an identity thing. There wasn't a decision there. It was like,

00:26:07.600 I'm not that kind of person in simple terms. If you're a parent, do you ever have to sit there

00:26:14.120 and decide whether or not you're going to take care of your kids? You're a parent. It's your

00:26:18.340 identity. That's what you do. There is no choice. So by applying, I don't to certain things,

00:26:25.260 then in time that becomes part of your identity. And you're a person who doesn't do whatever that

00:26:31.460 thing may be. Now you can use that for negatives. Like I don't, I don't know, I don't take drugs or,

00:26:37.140 you know, I don't kill people or something silly like that. Or you can do it in a positive to say,

00:26:41.080 here's something I want to always do. And I'm the kind of person that's always going to do that.

00:26:45.260 So I don't miss workouts or I don't eat, you know, at the buffet for two hours, or I don't,

00:26:52.180 whatever that might be. So I don't is the best way to look at that because it internalizes and

00:26:58.160 it's part of your identity and it's part of becoming something new. And I think that's the

00:27:03.340 coolest thing about trying to achieve a big goal. If you're going to run that marathon, when you first

00:27:09.460 start out, you're a guy that's trying to jog, but at some point along the way, as you progress,

00:27:14.780 you become a runner in your mind and in the mind of people around you. And when that's part of your

00:27:19.900 identity, you're an I don't person implicitly. And it makes it much easier to keep going because

00:27:26.480 that's part of who you are. It's not something that you do and have to force yourself to do.

00:27:30.860 It's part of who you are. And that's, that's really the power of the I don't when you're trying

00:27:36.080 to stick to a goal. And that's the whole, I mean, that should be the main goal with this focus on

00:27:40.180 the process thing is get to that point where it just becomes part of your identity. You just do

00:27:44.600 it automatically. Yeah. It will never be totally automatic, but it gets really close. You know,

00:27:50.760 you go from Kirk Hammett goes from a guy trying to learn to play guitar a little better to being a

00:27:56.320 musician. That is who he is. You know, I, I started out a guy that was riding a bike and felt terrible

00:28:01.920 about it. And at some point, however, gently or mildly I, it was, I felt like a cyclist recreationally

00:28:09.000 sure, but I felt like a cyclist and I felt like I belonged both to a community of people that do

00:28:14.300 that. But that was also an identity I had in myself that helped me. I don't know. It actually made me a

00:28:19.220 little more confident and made me feel better about myself because I had gotten to some place and become

00:28:23.380 something. And I, I think that's a really powerful thing. You can set out to achieve a goal

00:28:29.320 goal and achieving the goal is fun, but it's almost like buying a new house within a couple of months.

00:28:35.260 Your new house is your old house and it's no longer as exciting. But if you become something,

00:28:41.120 then you can achieve a goal, but you still get to carry that. But this is the kind of person I am.

00:28:46.040 This is the kind of things that I do. If you are a good parent, you carry that around within you and

00:28:50.700 that makes you feel good about yourself. You can do that with all sorts of other pursuits.

00:28:54.620 Yeah. I mean, that's, that's one of the pitfalls of setting goals. Like you set the goal and you talk

00:29:00.340 about this in the book and I've experienced my own, my own life. It's like you accomplish the goal

00:29:03.500 that you set and then it doesn't feel as good as you'd hope it would. And it's sort of a letdown.

00:29:09.440 And it's like, why do I keep going? And you, you, you see this with success, like, you know,

00:29:12.760 the Metallica guy, right? It's like, why is he like, he's sold rock, you know, arenas, stadiums.

00:29:18.360 He's like, he keeps going like Warren Buffett's like, why does Warren Buffett keep making more

00:29:22.420 money? It's like, well, making more money isn't the goal. He just, he enjoys the process a lot.

00:29:27.140 Yeah. And that's Kirk said, he gave me examples that I won't name of some people that he knew

00:29:32.640 that, you know, musicians who had had very successful bands did really well for a while

00:29:37.220 and it kind of faded. And now they're out on like the summer, you know, festival tour type stuff,

00:29:42.740 which is playing six flags, excuse me. They're playing six flags.

00:29:45.980 Yeah. Which is still cool, but he says that he knows some that hate it because they wanted

00:29:52.840 to be rock stars. And so now they're not really rock stars and they're playing six flags, like

00:29:58.460 you said. And so they don't really enjoy that because the goal was to be a rock star, which

00:30:02.720 is not something you can really wrap your arms around. Whereas, you know, musicians, maybe

00:30:08.200 you're high, maybe you're doing really well, then maybe you're playing clubs or something.

00:30:11.460 But if you enjoy playing music and you see yourself as a musician, you're going to go play

00:30:15.260 where you can play and you're going to feel good about that. And that's, you're exactly

00:30:19.260 right though. You can achieve the goal. And once you're done and you get over that momentary

00:30:23.820 glow, you are left with whoever you are. And if whoever you are is the kind of person that

00:30:29.100 enjoys the process and enjoys those daily, Hey, I set out to do this and I did it and I feel

00:30:34.300 good about myself. And I work, you know, it's the front porch thing. I worked hard today.

00:30:38.560 I did the things I wanted to do. I feel good about myself. It was a good day. You can carry

00:30:43.620 those good days for your whole life.

00:30:45.600 So you have another section in your book about becoming a serial achiever. And it's not,

00:30:51.100 I thought this was interesting. So first of all, what do you mean by becoming a serial

00:30:54.000 achiever? And how's that important to keeping that motivation going?

00:30:57.820 Well, that's a, it actually early in our conversation, you asked me about some of the

00:31:01.840 myths of motivation. And that is another one that many people have. They assume that you

00:31:06.680 have to choose one thing, whether you find it or whether that lightning bolt strikes you,

00:31:11.080 that you will do. And that becomes your life's purpose and your life's activity.

00:31:14.880 And you'll carry that the rest of your life. And so a lot of people won't start something

00:31:20.640 because they think, well, but I really can't see myself doing that for the next 40 years. So

00:31:25.240 I don't think I'll do that. A serial achiever is someone who says, you know what, I'm going to be,

00:31:29.920 I'm using air quotes now, like Dr. Evil, but I'm going to be an and I will be a person who is a,

00:31:36.300 you know, a writer and an entrepreneur and a cyclist and whatever it may be. And you can do

00:31:42.960 those in conjunction, which is a lot harder because most of us don't have time to follow

00:31:47.900 five or six different pursuits at the same time. Or you can set out and say, you know what?

00:31:53.220 I think I'd like to run a marathon and I'm going to work at that. And so I'm going to follow my

00:31:56.580 process. And when I get there and I run it, I can look around and say, that was really cool. Now I

00:32:01.760 think I'd like to go run the Boston marathons. I'll trade for that. Or you might look around and

00:32:06.480 say, that was really cool. And I really enjoyed it. And I feel good about that. But I've started

00:32:10.400 to have an interest in whatever else it may be cycling. I think I'm going to go to that.

00:32:15.920 People assume that switching to some other pursuit means that you wasted all that time that you put

00:32:21.520 into the initial pursuit. And that's, that's so far from correct because you carry all the

00:32:28.400 experiences with you. You carry some of those skills with you. You carry the knowledge that you

00:32:33.780 know how to follow a process and, and achieve something really big, which is a confidence

00:32:39.000 inspiring thing in and of itself. You bring all those experiences with you to whatever it is you do

00:32:44.400 next. So if you decide you want to try something and you spend five or six years achieving a certain

00:32:50.780 level of skill and accomplishment, it's okay to then look around and say, you know, this was really

00:32:56.340 cool. But I think I want to do that. When you started art of manliness, did you picture yourself

00:33:01.760 doing podcasts? There weren't even podcasts. They didn't exist, right? You didn't have an idea.

00:33:06.520 So you cruise along, you're doing your thing. You look at that and you say, you know what?

00:33:10.220 I think I want to learn how to do podcasts. I want to learn how to interview people better. I want,

00:33:14.020 I want to, I want to provide something to my audience in a different format. And I'm going to learn

00:33:18.600 how to do that. That's cool. There's nothing wrong with that. So the idea of serial achievement is just

00:33:24.380 that your life can be broken down into different stages where you accomplish a number of really

00:33:29.340 cool things that you're interested in and you carry all those with you. And if our goal is to be happy

00:33:35.560 and fulfilled, which I hope it is, then why would you give up a chance to spend four or five years

00:33:40.900 feeling happy and fulfilled if you had the chance? Are there any people you've interviewed and talked

00:33:46.300 to over the years with your work that are, you know, good examples of serial achievers?

00:33:50.620 Venus Williams is a really good one. Clearly she's a great tennis player, but she has a design 0.95

00:33:57.220 company where she does interior design for hotels and health clubs and places like that. She has a

00:34:02.420 clothing company where she designs clothing and things. She's gotten a master's degree in some

00:34:07.740 kind of design. You know, she's the perfect example of an and because she's a tennis player and an 1.00

00:34:13.840 entrepreneur and a student and a designer. And people criticized her for taking time off years 0.77

00:34:21.460 ago to follow some of those pursuits because it's like, wait a minute, you're a tennis player. You

00:34:24.900 should only be a tennis player. And she said, you know, my life is not just tennis. My life is my life

00:34:29.280 and it should follow the paths that I want to take. Kirk Hammett does the same thing. He started a pedal

00:34:34.260 company of guitar pedals because he likes the creative side of it. He doesn't need the money. There are all

00:34:39.340 kinds of examples of those people. If you look at almost every successful entrepreneur, they are

00:34:43.940 doing a variety of things. They're not maniacally focused on just one. And if you look at the people

00:34:49.600 around you that are just happy in their lives, they have several things that they do, all of which

00:34:55.780 combine to lead them to this happier place. So let's talk about this idea of working your number.

00:35:02.320 This kind of goes along with sticking to your process. What do you mean by work your number

00:35:07.220 and how does that boost motivation? Well, there are some things that you can do that really are

00:35:13.060 just a process or just as, how do I say this? They really, the outcome is based on just doing a number

00:35:19.060 of repetitions and getting the right number. That started with, there were a couple of young ladies 1.00

00:35:23.840 that started a company and they were complaining because it said it took them like one, I don't know,

00:35:29.680 the one out of every five calls they made to land a new customer. And that was really frustrating

00:35:34.720 and defeating. And I said, you know, you can look at it the other way around. If you know that one

00:35:38.520 out of five will land a customer, if you create a process that you can contact, you know, let's say

00:35:44.600 you need four new customers a month, you can contact 20 people, then you're probably going to get your

00:35:49.080 forward. So you've got that. And then along the way, you can refine how the conversation goes.

00:35:55.220 You can be better at closing. You can, you can make your process better so that maybe your strike rate

00:36:00.180 is better, but if you know your number, why not just work your number? And so you could use that

00:36:05.800 to accomplish any goal that requires just a certain number of repetitions. And to prove that I did this

00:36:12.800 really silly thing. I decided it would be fun to do a hundred thousand pushups in a year. So I broke

00:36:18.460 that down into 374 a day. I also did sit-ups along the way, but I did half as many sit-ups because I

00:36:23.840 just hate sit-ups. There was no tangible outcome to doing all those pushups other than I got in better

00:36:28.860 shape, but I just wanted to prove to myself that I could rack up a really big number by deconstructing

00:36:34.720 it and making it a small number per day. And the cool thing is along the way, I learned a little bit

00:36:39.700 about myself. I learned what triggers caused me to not want to stick to a process. I learned how to

00:36:44.400 overcome some of those things. I learned how to construct my day so that it made sure that I

00:36:49.060 accomplished that. And so I did my hundred thousand pushups. Sounds like a lot, but it really was just

00:36:54.060 374 days. So if you can break something down into numbers and say, if I do this many of this thing

00:37:01.880 on a regular basis, I will over the sometime period accumulate a lot in order to achieve my goal,

00:37:11.260 then it's a really simple way to approach it. Like I'll give you one other example. If I decided I

00:37:16.500 wanted to ride that Grand Fondo again, I've ridden enough now and I haven't ridden a bike in

00:37:21.200 six or eight months now other than casually. But if I decided I wanted to go do that, I know that I

00:37:27.000 need to put about 2000 miles in my legs over a four month or so period and I'll be fine. So that

00:37:35.240 would be my number. So I would just create a process that says, okay, I'm going to get that

00:37:38.840 much cycling in and I know it'll be good. Sounds really weird, but it's a really simple way to

00:37:44.880 approach something and it gives you a very clear path to follow. I love it. Well, Jeff, this has been a

00:37:50.420 great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:37:54.180 Right for Inc. So if you go to inc.com and search my name, there's about 1500 articles there.

00:38:01.960 I'm a LinkedIn influencer, which is the only time I'll ever be on a list with Richard Branson and

00:38:06.580 Bill Gates. So if you go to LinkedIn, I'm there. And then my website is jeffhayden.net. Somebody,

00:38:13.300 I cannot imagine there is a Jeff Hayden out there that has accomplished anything worthy of having a

00:38:17.480 website, me included, but nonetheless, there's somebody's got the .com. So I'm jeffhayden.net.

00:38:23.260 Awesome. Well, Jeff Hayden, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:38:25.960 Oh, you're welcome. Thank you.

00:38:27.560 My guest name is Jeff Hayden. He's the author of the book, The Motivation Myth. It's available

00:38:31.240 on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash motivation myth

00:38:36.800 where you can find links to resources, where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:38:50.360 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,

00:38:54.620 make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. If you enjoy the

00:38:58.360 show, you've got something out of it. I appreciate it if you take one minute or two to give us a review

00:39:01.600 on iTunes or Stitcher. Helps out a lot. And if you've done that already, thank you. Please share the

00:39:05.560 show with a friend. As always, thank you for your continued support. Until next time,

00:39:09.020 this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.

The Art of Manliness - January 02, 2018

#367： The Motivation Myth

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