The Art of Manliness - #378： Brunch Is Hell; Dinner Parties Are Heaven

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast according to my

00:00:18.800 guest today the past decade has seen the rise of a truly soul-sucking food trend in fact he argues

00:00:23.940 it's creating a hell on earth what is this mealtime monster it's brunch my guest's name

00:00:28.080 is brandon nunum and he along with his co-author rico galliano are on a mission to destroy brunch

00:00:32.400 and bring back the dinner party brandon and i begin our conversation discussing why brunch has

00:00:36.660 become big business in america but why he thinks it's terrible for us individually and also as a

00:00:41.320 society we then dig into why we should bring back the dinner party as the preferred mealtime social

00:00:45.700 event brand explains why hosting a dinner party is a pretty dang manly affair and why dinner parties

00:00:50.760 are so much better than brunch he then gets into the nitty-gritty of hosting a dinner party including

00:00:55.040 the optimal day to schedule one the best way to invite people and who to invite brandon shares

00:00:59.480 why the food isn't the most important thing at a dinner party while also providing some easy

00:01:03.220 entree options that people will love we end our conversation discussing how to handle small talk

00:01:07.360 and controversial discussion topics why the party is just getting started after the food has been

00:01:11.280 eaten and how to give people the hint they need to leave if they're staying too long after listening

00:01:15.540 to the show you'll be jonesing to host a dinner party of your own after the show's over check out

00:01:19.200 our show notes at aom.is slash brunch is hell brendan francis noonam welcome to the show thanks

00:01:36.700 thanks for having me so you and your co-author rico wrote a book and you have a podcast first off you

00:01:42.140 guys have a podcast called the dinner party download you guys came out with a book called brunch is hell

00:01:46.700 how to save the world by throwing a dinner party so let's start off with the title man that's that's

00:01:51.920 pretty provocative my seven-year-old son sees that brunch is hell and he's like that is dad brunch is

00:01:57.680 not hell and that's terrible so oh why is brunch hell why do you have this vendetta against brunch well

00:02:04.340 first of all i thought you're gonna say that your son wouldn't be able to look at it because it's a

00:02:07.900 bad word but apparently your household those rules don't apply we're loosey-goosey around yeah it i mean

00:02:13.100 doesn't i mean don't you feel it in your heart that brunch is hell and if you don't i i would just say

00:02:17.280 that you know we all we all work hard every week we we you know do our best as parents as employees as

00:02:24.980 as teammates as human beings and then you know we get a couple days a week to kind of relax or collect

00:02:31.040 our thoughts or think about our future or kind of repair in some sense and what do we do with one of

00:02:35.720 those days we stab it in the heart by waiting in line for breakfast at around or not even breakfast

00:02:42.800 this hybrid meal around noon one o'clock and then maybe we go inside and then may it's this really

00:02:48.340 loud place playing tinny music and then you sit down and then you wait and then you have a surly

00:02:52.920 servant who comes by and offers you something and then it takes forever to get it and then you consume

00:02:58.700 all this food and you drink a couple bottomless mimosas and then you pay way too much money for eggs

00:03:04.160 and then you leave and now it's like 3 30 and you're drooling on yourself a little bit because

00:03:09.960 you date where you were day drinking and now all that ambition has has has gone away and you still

00:03:16.020 have a bunch of day left and you've kind of just ruined ruined one of your one of your opportunities

00:03:20.580 to kind of grow and be fully human and so brunch i feel like is uh just kind of jamming people's radar

00:03:27.020 it's it's it's bad it's like false kind of false calories it feels satisfying but it's a poor

00:03:33.080 form of leisure look we don't think that you shouldn't entertain we shouldn't have fun and

00:03:37.420 you shouldn't get mischievous but we just don't think brunch is the place to do it there's a great

00:03:41.820 time to feel that way and that's at the end of the day after you've done your stuff and that is

00:03:46.560 what a dinner party is for yeah the dinner party well and what's interesting is there was a time in

00:03:50.880 american culture where like people that's what you did you threw dinner parties right yes but what

00:03:56.000 happened like why did the dinner party decline and then brunch this sort of frankenstein meal

00:04:02.520 take its place what happened what cultural changes think facilitated that that's the spirit well there

00:04:08.640 are a lot of things i mean first of all you know brunch rose you know kind of started to come about

00:04:13.480 when restaurateurs had this leftover food that they needed to move or go bad so they decided you know

00:04:19.060 you buy they buy a bunch of steaks expecting to sell them a saturday night dinner they don't sell them

00:04:23.400 so they turn it into a beef hash and the next day and they and they charge you for it so that

00:04:27.380 that's one reason there started to be a surge in restaurant serving brunch parallel to that and and

00:04:32.060 we you know the new york times other other wall street journal people have written about this you

00:04:36.020 know people feel like a dinner party is too much heavy lifting it's overwhelming it's uh you know they're

00:04:41.240 too busy they think to go home and prepare a meal and i think the the the what you know when people

00:04:47.400 think of a dinner party often they think of like a tablecloth they think of like perfect china they think

00:04:52.260 of three course meals and uh i think that's really anxiety producing when the truth is we advocate

00:04:57.620 the dinner party we advocate for you know they don't have to be they don't have to be such a such a huge

00:05:02.180 undertaking so i think it's a little bit um you know people got busy people got intimidated restaurants

00:05:07.460 started to kind of uh seduce people with their their clapboards on the on in the front of their

00:05:13.160 restaurants seducing people to come in with bottomless mimosas and and i do think overall too people

00:05:17.860 stopped relying on themselves a little bit you know restaurant life is easy it's you snap in there

00:05:23.100 and uh you just like park and it's like being like an adolescent forever like you just like

00:05:27.080 that you know i want this i want this you order people around they give you food you hand a piece

00:05:31.360 of plastic and you leave and i feel like you know i i don't think i have to give too many examples that

00:05:36.700 are societies in many ways deteriorating around us and i'm not going to say brunch is the culprit but

00:05:41.880 i'm saying brunch is the culprit yeah no yeah so brunch keeps you a perpetual adolescent dinner

00:05:47.220 parties are for grown-ups because you do it yourself agreed well among among many reasons

00:05:52.760 like dinner parties look here's the thing there's the host of a dinner party and that person has to

00:05:57.420 be on point like you're kind of an uber adult in some sense and yet the guests they i'm not saying

00:06:02.460 every it's not that the world is doesn't have to be some militaristic operation the guests there get

00:06:06.240 to fully completely relax and and in fact like if you're the host you know if you're a guest your job

00:06:12.140 is to relax is to enjoy yourself and why we also advocate for dinner parties is that they happen in

00:06:17.660 in your private home and in a private home then things can actually you can be fully human like

00:06:23.260 can you pick up a guitar at a restaurant and start strumming some silly song could you light up a

00:06:28.240 cigarette if you know or could you you know dance on on on the tables like those things cannot happen

00:06:34.120 at a brunch spot but they can happen at a dinner party so i don't want people to think that you know

00:06:38.800 dinner party has to be this formal affair but but it's more like yes it's more of an adult setting

00:06:43.640 because you're in someone's home there's someone hosting it and you it's at the end of the day

00:06:47.900 after you've kind of done your adult things and then we have some rules rules of the road about

00:06:52.820 dinner parties that we're very flexible about ultimately but things like you know at a dinner

00:06:56.660 party we think that you shouldn't have your employer there you shouldn't have more than 25 percent

00:07:01.500 immediate family you shouldn't have things that make you feel obligated and that may impinge upon

00:07:05.820 you feeling completely free in a sense see i mean i really think that idea of why people don't throw

00:07:11.740 dinner parties particularly i think millennials in the age of instagram where everything has to

00:07:15.280 look perfect they don't want to do themselves they don't feel like they can meet the expectations that

00:07:20.480 the internet will have for them on what a party or get together should should look like so they're

00:07:24.880 just like ah i'll just outsource that and go somewhere else where yeah a restaurant takes care of

00:07:29.880 it makes it looks really cool it makes for great instagram photos at a a swanky not a swanky

00:07:35.880 restaurant like a hip restaurant that's serving brunch exactly right yeah no i mean i feel like

00:07:41.100 that short-circuited us it made us feel bad about ourselves in many ways but you know look uh have

00:07:46.180 has anyone invited you like have you ever been invited to have dine at someone's house and gone

00:07:51.240 there and been like this food is awful like no you're excited that someone invited you over you know

00:07:56.640 you're excited you're excited that you're able to talk with your friends and listen to some music

00:08:00.740 and what a treat for you as the guest to just not even have to pay frankly even on that on that basic

00:08:06.480 level so the idea that the food has to be perfect or that the you know the timing has to be off

00:08:11.740 timing has to be perfect is is a bit naive because what makes a dinner party you know part of the

00:08:17.140 beauty of it is that that is artisanal it is a reflection of the host and it isn't some business

00:08:21.840 plan that's been dialed in like a restaurant so it is going to have some rough edges so i think if

00:08:26.260 anything what makes a dinner party better than uh an ideal brunch or instagram is that it's human

00:08:31.340 and that's what makes people feel comfortable you know if you go to a dinner party and it is stuffy

00:08:35.060 and everything is perfect you're not going to feel comfortable in a sense it's unreal it sets

00:08:39.300 unrealistic expectations all right so hosting dinner parties is often seen some you know seen as something

00:08:44.220 that ladies do right and i think like dinner party i think like 1950s etiquette manuals like you said 0.96

00:08:49.600 the tablecloth the the silverware whatever uh make the case that dude should be throwing dinner parties too

00:08:55.680 i mean i think i think i i try to you know live in an enlightened universe in which the distinction

00:09:02.560 between dude what dudes and ladies do is is no longer there uh in a sense so i feel like you know

00:09:08.340 we can expand upon the idea of of who we are i don't know i i feel like i'm i'm the i've always been

00:09:13.320 the cook in my relationships and stuff like that and so i i and my my uncle like the people in my life

00:09:18.660 that i admire who are men often are are the cooks and stuff so i feel like any gender can do this but i get

00:09:24.180 what you're saying the frame in which you're coming approaching this question is that well you know

00:09:28.220 what what can make someone who is a bit alpha and maybe testosterone feel like it's it's okay to host

00:09:34.000 this because often barbecues are considered the domain for men right we don't think barbecues are

00:09:38.680 dinner parties we we endorse barbecues but they're very different thing they can happen any hour of the

00:09:43.180 day people you know and you can bring friends along people can wear flip-flops there's a lot of stuff

00:09:47.700 about a barbecue that makes it not a dinner party so but but i would feel you know let's just go back to

00:09:52.600 this so a dinner party we also advocate is like the root of civilization and we think here's what

00:09:58.300 here's how dinner parties happen years ago there was a caveman named thorag and he clubbed a pterodactyl

00:10:03.820 and he brought it home and he cooked it over a fire and then he and his wife karen had some

00:10:10.000 leftover pterodactyl and they were like let's invite erg and his wife over and then they invited to them

00:10:16.000 invited that other couple into their home now these these people weren't related

00:10:19.980 they're right biologically there was no necessity to protect these people or feed these people

00:10:24.060 they just did it because they had some extra meat and wanted to hang out like thorag wanted to hang

00:10:28.200 out with erg karen wanted to hang out with ergs ergs wife her name is karen but the point being like

00:10:35.880 that was the beginning of civilization you know when we finally had enough abundance that we can invite

00:10:40.100 people over and just focus on being friends it wasn't just we were out on the field being predators

00:10:44.040 you know we were or you know it was eat or be eaten and like look we are in a civilized society

00:10:49.860 fortunately we're very fortunate here in this country and for listening to podcasts you know

00:10:53.840 you have you know you're you're probably doing okay to some extent and so just that's that's the

00:10:58.860 world we live in and so to invite other people over to your home is actually a very powerful act

00:11:03.640 it's a magnanimous act it's like i have abundance come share with share it and let's forge friendship

00:11:09.520 and i feel like that's a part about that's part of being a man there's nothing i don't know i don't

00:11:14.120 think there's anything that would make some alpha guy feel uncomfortable about that in fact he would

00:11:18.080 feel kingly in a sense you know what what do kings do they have feasts at their homes right that's right

00:11:23.120 no it's interesting yeah that whole idea of uh hospitality if you go back in different ancient

00:11:27.920 cultures like men that was like a competition like who could be the most hospitable to guests and

00:11:33.480 sometimes they would yeah they would go bankrupt trying to be the most generous host sure sure

00:11:38.900 completely no i just i just think that that frame yeah is of you know you know the the the genderness 0.97

00:11:45.560 of the dinner party i i hadn't you know i hadn't thought about it a bunch but i think that if part

00:11:51.160 of the idea of the art of manliness is how to be competent on some level you know knowing how to do

00:11:56.500 this stuff is part of the toolkit of being a fully realized human i think and i think it's something we

00:12:01.340 take for granted i think we spend a lot of our times being good employees as i said like being good

00:12:04.880 employees being good teammates being good you know this and this is a space like this is part of what

00:12:10.940 it means to be be a human being and why go through life not experiencing this sliver of it which is

00:12:16.780 you're right it is about hospitality but remember dinner party is two things they have hosts and

00:12:21.200 there's guests it's also learn how to be taken care of like learn how to show up at a place

00:12:25.360 hold a conversation and and let go for a moment of your life in a very safe space because you're in a

00:12:31.340 friend's home all right so you've been mentioning kind of rules of what makes a dinner party a dinner

00:12:35.840 party uh so barbecue is not a dinner party if you invite someone over for pizza and soda dinner party

00:12:42.600 no not not not really a dinner party i mean you if you made the pizza at home possibly a dinner party

00:12:49.400 because look if you know there's a you know we think that if you're gonna have a dinner party you

00:12:53.960 have to cook at least 51 percent of the food in your home and that's partially because a dinner party

00:12:58.560 is a reflection of you so you need to get in the game a little bit like you need to like

00:13:02.300 find the you know you need to you need to cook it yourself get involved and actually the process of

00:13:07.160 making the food will make you and your guests more appreciative and again what you decide to cook is

00:13:12.320 a reflection of you now if you order in pizza that's a great thing to do not for a dinner party

00:13:17.020 because that's just like what you do you know after your friends help you move in or what you do on

00:13:21.740 Friday night when you get home from work and it's like the kids and you don't have you're too tired to

00:13:26.140 cook and it's like let's just watch some movies and have some pizza but that doesn't have a sense

00:13:29.900 of occasion to it furthermore we have other sub rules like if you're having a dinner party it's

00:13:34.100 a break from the insane 24-hour assault of advertising in our modern society can't even go

00:13:40.400 to a bar without like a neon sign flashing some brand in your face so we think when you have a dinner

00:13:45.240 party the table itself should be unadorned it should just be the food and the drinks and maybe a wine

00:13:50.160 bottle or beer bottle but you know you're not going to bring out a you know domino sugar in a

00:13:54.820 domino sugar box like you're not gonna and so to that extent if you order pizza it comes in a box

00:13:59.620 and you're gonna serve it in a box why else wouldn't you and so that's another reason it doesn't make

00:14:03.640 the perfect dinner party food soda totally acceptable but again you can't have a two liter

00:14:08.300 bottle hanging out on your table you know that that's just not that's just not not dinner party

00:14:13.620 now if you cook the pizzas at your home that might that might get you within bounds there okay so

00:14:18.760 no advertisements we're ad busters here well i mean look there's a place for them and it's not

00:14:23.560 your home man it's not your home it's like this is a place again the focus is the conversation

00:14:28.180 it's the person's uh uh face right in front of you it's what someone's saying to the left of you and

00:14:34.620 it shouldn't yeah you don't want it you don't want your table to just look like time square

00:14:38.340 so let's talk about like when okay dinner party let's talk about the timing dinner party has to be

00:14:42.740 around dinner time yeah that's why barbecue is not a dinner party because you can do that at

00:14:47.680 four o'clock all day do it all day sure so what time like in the time of day should you shoot for

00:14:54.300 having a dinner party i mean i i'm i'm thinking i'm trying to remember back in the book at the time

00:14:59.700 in my head it's like between five and eight are your key times but we think we should push it up

00:15:04.040 closer to seven because if you're on the west coast you got la there's a lot of traffic i mean everywhere

00:15:09.960 atlanta all these places there's lots of traffic so you need people to give give a break to come

00:15:14.080 into your home and it gives you a little bit of a runway as a cook to get things started so we think

00:15:19.580 that that's your sweet spot a dinner party can't have an end time we think that's a whole different

00:15:24.320 thing a baby shower can have an end time you know a brunch can have an end time but a dinner party

00:15:29.800 the idea is no like relax from the rules and regulations come to my home and we're gonna let

00:15:35.300 it run its course now look we also have methods for getting people out of your home if they if they

00:15:39.940 stick around too long but so the ideal time would probably be between like 6 30 7 to get started

00:15:45.600 and then it's a few hours but you're not really going to bracket it with another end time and then

00:15:50.240 it's also days of the week you know we we sundays are are a bad day for dinner parties because

00:15:55.520 everyone's anxious about monday and getting back to work monday is a bad day for dinner party because

00:16:00.340 monday night you're doing all the stuff you should have done sunday while you're anxious about being

00:16:03.560 back at work tuesdays we think are just dumb i mean what's a tuesday so we're talking 0.74

00:16:08.140 wednesday through saturday is your is your is your prime rib that that's your beautiful piece

00:16:12.920 of dinner party time we're pro thursdays is a great spot because it adds a sense of occasion

00:16:18.120 to a monday and week people can maybe even get a little loose and be foggy on work and friday

00:16:22.180 that's not unheard of and there's less competition because fridays and saturdays there's concerts

00:16:26.340 and other events but so wednesday through saturday are your ideal dinner party evenings yeah i like

00:16:31.880 thursday thursdays are a good day for definitely i think definitely you can recover you work and then

00:16:37.680 recover you stay in sat friday and then you have your whole weekend to take over the world yeah

00:16:41.640 and it gives you something to look gives people something to look forward to yeah you know monday

00:16:45.540 and that's a key point that's keeping one of our other rules a holiday party not a dinner party

00:16:50.740 these are our our year is sprinkled with senses of occasion that are wonderful they're your friends

00:16:56.460 have birthdays someone has a anniversary there's christmas comes up or halloween so that's already

00:17:02.320 kind of makes your life feel like it adds a little frisson adds a little fun a dinner party is for

00:17:07.200 you know the the end of january or or a space in in the month where there's nothing special going

00:17:13.020 on the only thing special is you're like hey guys come over here there's gonna be a burst of

00:17:16.960 sunshine at my house i'm like putting in a roast bring over a bottle of wine we're gonna listen to

00:17:21.240 records and we're gonna hang out and that is used to exactly as you said people are like whoa

00:17:24.720 all right and that kind of gets people gets people a little excited we think having a dinner party

00:17:29.180 over christmas that's like giving a kid taking a kid out for ice cream on halloween it's like look

00:17:33.380 they've already got the joy and then the kind of uh sense of occasion taken care of it's uh it's

00:17:38.700 gilding the lily if you to do that yeah well yeah so yeah that's an interesting point dinner parties are

00:17:44.400 a way to make like a boring mundane flat life a little more interesting give a little pizzazz

00:17:50.840 absolutely and i'll and particularly you know adulthood is a lot of adulthood and is is taking

00:17:58.300 care of others and it is being a good human which are all important things and you don't abandon those

00:18:02.760 principles within a dinner party but we like to call it we like to think of the dinner party is like

00:18:06.760 it's recess for adults it's like it's the time where you get to then ask a silly question it's where

00:18:12.880 you get to you know maybe maybe even have a little a little dancing after after dinner it's where you get

00:18:19.400 to maybe early on in the evening have one more drink than you would uh but the idea is you need

00:18:24.380 a release valve in life um and this is this is a place where a forum where you can just relax i mean

00:18:30.480 that's why we also advocate for not invite you know one of our rules is as i mentioned earlier

00:18:35.120 less than 25 percent immediate family any more than that you're going to be in some freudian morass

00:18:40.360 which is just going to bring you to like that's what thanksgiving's for is to have all those old battles

00:18:44.540 you know you don't want your boss over because all of a sudden people are acting a certain way

00:18:48.480 and so the idea is just have friends and that's also you know the heart of our book is about

00:18:52.920 conversation and and and how the world can be better the the truth of it is you know if you

00:18:58.640 have an uncomfortable question or thought about politics is work the place to say it no on the

00:19:03.300 sidelines of your son's soccer game to your your son's friend's mother no you know where can you do

00:19:08.720 that anymore well a dinner party is a is a place for that that's a place where you can say hey i don't

00:19:13.580 understand this you get to be a little bit you know actually getting back to you get to be a

00:19:18.700 little childlike in a genuine way because you're in a very safe space surrounded by friends you can

00:19:23.600 throw mashed potatoes at your face or educate you about something so so yeah that's that's the it's a

00:19:29.600 sense of occasion and it is a it is a special moment that can like enrich your life yeah that's

00:19:33.560 what i love about the conversation that like the conversation for me is what the what makes a dinner

00:19:37.100 party fantastic because i feel like again yeah people are less guarded and they're willing to say

00:19:42.940 things that they otherwise probably wouldn't say on twitter or facebook or you know in private like

00:19:47.600 because they're not going to get their head bit off right and they're they're they're playing with

00:19:51.240 ideas and you can't do that yeah a lot of other places absolutely right absolutely right i mean i i

00:19:57.180 think you know i think there are large you know the public square is in our country for good reason

00:20:03.400 is you know certain discussions are just uncomfortable to have with strangers now i would

00:20:08.220 like that to open up i wish we could just really just be maybe a little bit looser and feeling feeling

00:20:13.720 more you know closer to our our fellow citizens and and and people that we live life with especially

00:20:19.300 at this moment there's a certain polarization people are are feeling chilled in their speech and

00:20:23.840 from both sides of the political spectrum in other places but that is not healthy at all and that's

00:20:28.060 not how new things happen new things happen over debate new things happen when people don't

00:20:32.920 pretend they know something and that's exactly right a dinner party that's your spot like that's

00:20:37.620 where your friend's sitting across from you or your friend invited her friend who actually represent you

00:20:42.740 know it does this job you're like oh i've always wondered about this and you're not going to be

00:20:46.620 judged or condemned because everyone feels you know this glow has been created between the cocktails

00:20:51.620 and like the music and just the vibe and the host host themselves that that's the forum to do it and 0.99

00:20:57.240 they can tell you like you're an absolute idiot and they're not going to start a fight like 0.96

00:21:00.660 that's okay too because there is this um it is this space of just kind of it's definitely a free 0.99

00:21:06.160 speech zone that's for sure right so you speaking of conversation are there certain like or do you

00:21:10.700 think there's topics that are off limits at a dinner party or should you be able to should you be able

00:21:14.060 to wade into that we we the old rules were like don't talk about politics and religion and we think

00:21:19.740 we're look where that's brought us like you we think everything is open for the discussion as long as

00:21:24.260 it's done tactfully and we use strategies for having certain discussions you know you don't just want to

00:21:29.860 jump right into it our book kind of after we give you our anti-brunch manifesto we then give you go

00:21:35.680 take you through a dinner party from beginning to end and look there's a time for small talk small

00:21:39.800 talk is often disparaged uh for for being like oh that that's that's empty calories what's the point

00:21:45.120 of that well the point of that is is early on people are getting meeting each other not everyone

00:21:49.260 already knows each other so you got to ease into things you got to test the waters you got to

00:21:53.300 see who has a sense of humor or maybe who's more of an intellectual and it's not for you to self-censor

00:21:57.860 later but it is just everyone to feel comfortable around each other have a drink so i wouldn't come

00:22:01.680 right in and start talking about abortion but you know once you get to know each other and the food's

00:22:06.100 happening and if someone has a serious question absolutely you should be able to bring up whatever

00:22:10.740 you whatever you want as long as you know you follow the basic rules of the road which are like

00:22:15.340 you know you be respectful for political we have a subsection about talking about politics you know

00:22:20.060 one of the rules there is is relevant to everything which is you should go in there you're not going to

00:22:25.040 change someone's mind over the course of two hours you know if you all of a sudden you know

00:22:30.620 you're not going to convince maybe um a liberal that everyone should be carrying an assault rifle

00:22:36.340 to preschool but on the other hand you're not going to convince you know uh someone on the other

00:22:40.580 end of the political spectrum that you know uh you know you're not going to have them join this

00:22:44.260 transgender coffee clash held on sundays uh at the local corner you know and so as long as you go in

00:22:49.740 there knowing like look we're not going to change everyone's mind but i'm going to share an idea or share a

00:22:54.320 thought or i wanted some more information about your side of the story and then once you get to a

00:22:58.140 point where you find yourselves repeating each other you feel the heat rising you just shift out of

00:23:02.360 it because that's that's that's faulty reasoning to think like oh well i'm going to convince them

00:23:07.700 it's like no it should be like hey i have a question about this and then you can kind of share your

00:23:11.480 thought on it but then once it starts to get repetitive you just tastefully turn your head to the

00:23:16.120 guest to the right of you fill your mouth with a piece of roast beef and agree to disagree

00:23:20.220 well so how do you in order to have this type of conversations you got to invite the right kind

00:23:24.660 of people and one of the things you talk about you know why brunch is terrible is that when you go to

00:23:27.880 brunch you look around everyone is just like you if you're if you're going to brunch you're probably

00:23:32.540 relatively affluent got a lot of time yeah yeah you listen to the same music you don't want that

00:23:38.620 at dinner parties how do you how do you capture that sort of diversity of opinions and people and

00:23:44.140 backgrounds at a dinner party yeah and and this is a trick because you do want to feel comfortable

00:23:48.760 you do want to create the space we talked about where everyone feels loose and this so this really

00:23:53.840 is up up to the you know the host needs to you know everyone needs to like respect that host and

00:23:58.680 kind of create the host needs to create a space of trust and so that you need that needs to be your

00:24:03.800 guide about who you're ultimately bringing the mix we have those basic rules of the road i kind of laid

00:24:07.720 out to you which is you don't want a ton you don't want your like your mother there and your aunt 1.00

00:24:12.600 because that's going to turn into another thing it might till you don't want your bosses there

00:24:16.040 but yeah you you're going to invite maybe tops 12 minimum four people although we think five is a

00:24:22.960 little bit better for various reasons and then and then within that within that spectrum of people

00:24:27.960 you invite the people you wanted to catch up with you invite those people you but you know so there's

00:24:32.540 going to be a little squad of those folks like we were just meaning to catch up and then maybe there's

00:24:36.540 that other layer of people you met at an event or or you know just people that kind of caught your eye

00:24:41.640 at a whether it was i don't know a book opening or whether it was like a church or something just

00:24:46.680 like whatever people that you see that you're like those are kind of cool that's this is the space

00:24:51.040 invite them over and kind of bring them in a little bit as long as again they're not going to overlap

00:24:55.280 with you professionally and then we also encourage you to you know i i was at a dinner party at my

00:25:00.920 friend's house a couple months ago and he invited he teaches at a college and he there he invited a

00:25:06.800 security guard there that this woman that he talks to every morning catches up with her you know to 1.00

00:25:11.480 learns about her learns about her family she asked after his and he just invited her over that was a

00:25:16.140 totally interesting you know added a different dynamic to a dinner party and opened it up so it's

00:25:21.120 kind of people that you've encountered over life that you've kind of have a good feeling about they

00:25:25.560 want to learn more about bring them in i mean if someone says hey i can't i can't make it that

00:25:29.920 tuesday you know my my college roommate's in town and man you wouldn't like him he's a

00:25:35.060 uptight investment banker libertarian it's like well if he can hang out with himself

00:25:39.340 like if you think he's cool invite him along let's have that discussion so you kind of look

00:25:44.080 for opportunities that bring in one or two people that might be wild cards as long as they're vetted

00:25:49.300 in the sense that someone vouches for them or you have a good feeling about them and then that's the

00:25:53.480 mix because that's the only way we're going to learn is if we hear some different opinions all

00:25:57.540 right well so we so far we've been talking a lot about like when to do a dinner party the type of

00:26:02.060 people we haven't talked about the food but you guys say in the book like the food is like the

00:26:06.360 least important thing at a dinner party why is that it's a dinner dinner is food why is it the least

00:26:11.200 important part of it well i think it's something you got to earlier in our conversation um which is

00:26:17.020 people have anxiety about food that's i think one of the reasons they don't throw dinner parties

00:26:20.820 is they look at instagram and they see all these beautiful meals or they watch the food network

00:26:24.600 and it's like guess what like this is basically social bribery you're inviting people over for a free meal

00:26:29.940 and you're applying them with booze like don't worry about it they're going to be happy to be there

00:26:33.880 and so we think that this is a point of anxiety so we just like take it on his face which is like this

00:26:38.660 is the least important part the part the important part of a dinner party is the atmosphere is conversation

00:26:43.740 is the mix of people that are there and yes there are some things some rules of the road for food which

00:26:49.240 we unpack in this chapter but don't psych yourself out if you're not a cook we give you some very basic

00:26:54.840 recipes and give you some strategies for how to find other things that you might want to cook

00:26:59.180 but you know if you're at someone's house and you and you get a well let's put it this way if you're

00:27:04.320 a brunch and someone brought you your eggs and you ordered them fried and they came scrambled you

00:27:09.920 would complain or if it was over salted you would complain if you're at someone's house and they serve

00:27:14.400 you say uh pasta and it's a little bit overcooked are you going to complain no you're not going to

00:27:19.820 complain you're just going to like maybe eat a couple bites and move to the vegetables or something

00:27:23.520 like that because you're just kind of overjoyed to be at someone's house you didn't go there for

00:27:28.560 the ideal meal you went there for the event and so yeah we say it's the least important part of the

00:27:33.640 party because getting people into your home kind of creating an atmosphere of camaraderie having some

00:27:38.860 good music some lighting some other things we talk about the food itself isn't isn't the main reason

00:27:43.860 that that people are there so keep it super simple like a pasta dish roast is like you know meat is like

00:27:49.880 super simple to cook yeah we advocate for that we have we call it i call it stunt meat and this is

00:27:54.400 something i do all the time which is i'm having a bunch of people over i get um a big like roast or

00:28:00.220 i get a you could get a chicken or you could get a you know a ham you know i've done this every way

00:28:05.100 and if you're a cook you know that this is a trick because ultimately a ham is you put a glaze on it you

00:28:09.940 score it and you throw that thing in the oven and you kind of forget about it for hours and that

00:28:14.060 leaves you time to kind of quickly clean your house and get ready for for the other for arrivals

00:28:18.060 but when you bring it out it's very dramatic looking to have a roast um it is uh non-cooks

00:28:24.540 are like oh my god this person's a genius but even real cooks are like whoa that that guy went

00:28:29.440 all out it just has a sense of occasion about it and then you know you carve it and there's just

00:28:34.080 tons of it you know dorothy parker has a quote about ham eternity is a ham between two people

00:28:40.140 because you would just eat it forever leftovers and on and on but a ham with 12 people that's an

00:28:45.160 occasion like that that's a party so yeah we have some meats but we we do advocate for keeping it

00:28:49.660 simple if you're going to mix it up with a new appetizer or some 11 ingredient thingamabob we would

00:28:54.640 say do that for the first course or like a nibble or a nosh when people arrive but i wouldn't like bet

00:29:01.320 the house and all your time and all your ingredients on on and uh like a real alpha entree like if you've

00:29:08.060 never made paella now is not the time to make paella you know like if you've never made you know if

00:29:12.680 you've never made this uh 11 ingredient vegan to pino like now is not the time to do that either

00:29:17.940 just stick to some basic things veggie starch protein and you'll be fine awesome so okay besides the

00:29:25.740 food giving you anxiety giving people anxiety why they don't do it the other part that gives people

00:29:29.800 anxiety is just like even just inviting people over because you're afraid like you're you're going

00:29:34.960 back to like middle school when you you ask someone to a party you ask a girl out and you're

00:29:39.500 afraid they're going to say no why should that why should people not worry about that

00:29:43.720 i mean uh you know we just i guess the truth is like forget about it's the idea of like remember

00:29:50.060 you're basically giving people a gift like in a really even coarse terms you could just say you're

00:29:56.640 inviting someone to a dinner party like you're giving them like hundreds of dollars at of of value

00:30:01.480 for free it would be a real market market way to look at it but it just in a general way it's like

00:30:06.800 who cares people are busy you got you can't you got to let the water flow off your back if people

00:30:11.700 can't make it they're adults and they'll tell you they can't make it but people are going are going

00:30:16.060 to come and part of the rule we have an invitation section and one of the things is like with there

00:30:20.740 are various things we we we think we're pro spontaneous dinner party if you're talking to

00:30:25.040 people at an event at a concert and you're like hey what are you doing this saturday you should go for

00:30:29.340 it if the impulse moves you and then figure it out figure it out later like invite first and figure

00:30:33.840 out the rest of the guest list later but also you know you can invite people the difference between

00:30:37.920 a dinner party and other parties like a barbecue or a pool party is you do tell people they have

00:30:42.560 to tell you they're coming only the people you invite can arrive they can't bring a gang of four

00:30:47.160 people and so there you tell people when it begins there's like a relatively you know it starts at

00:30:53.660 seven we let you come as late as 7 30 but there's some formal structure that once people agree

00:30:58.560 they're going to commit to it they're going to get a babysitter or they're going to actually

00:31:03.100 mark it on their calendar and that means the likelihood of them arriving is much much higher

00:31:08.360 than if you're like oh yeah we're going to open up our house and have a barbecue on saturday well

00:31:12.660 that's cool and people might show up a hundred people might show up five people might show up

00:31:16.820 a dinner party you have you know maybe 10 people are coming and then if two of them back out you can

00:31:21.840 fill up that slot but i i guess there's a frame and and it's and it's such a fun treat for people

00:31:27.740 that you're going to get people to agree and they're going to commit once once they commit they're

00:31:32.460 going to follow through right yeah that's the thing i when we've had dinner parties like people

00:31:36.760 are waiting to be asked i think oftentimes you're people are afraid to ask just like oh no they don't

00:31:40.800 want no one wants to get invited they're they're too busy it's like no no one's busy everyone's at

00:31:44.960 home watching netflix not doing anything they're waiting for somebody to give them a plan so be that

00:31:52.240 guy be the guy that makes that person exactly people love it and look if it's a couple like even if

00:31:56.900 one of them is like i don't want to by the time they arrive like they're they're going to enjoy

00:32:01.480 themselves like because it's just like go ahead you if you're if you're being grumpy like you go sit

00:32:06.220 in a chair have a drink and i bet you you'll open up if the dinner party is being hosted correctly

00:32:11.080 but for a lot of people you're right it's like a gift it's like whoa i had like no plans and now

00:32:15.880 all i have to do is drive over to you know brendan's house and at around seven and just like sit back

00:32:21.460 and enjoy myself like sure let's do it another thing people like don't do dinner parties is like

00:32:27.980 they don't want to have to clean their house or they're afraid people are going to make fun of

00:32:31.580 their house because it's not properly decorated what's your take on that i mean again that this

00:32:36.700 is an uh this you know keep in mind you're giving people something free they've already agreed to come

00:32:42.200 join you they're not looking to punish you and why a dinner party is better than brunch like they're

00:32:47.460 not expecting perfection what makes true friendship it's your it's your it's your buddy who is honest

00:32:53.380 with you you know about about their lives that you know they're vulnerable to an extent like that's

00:32:57.780 really what kind of creates like the real um a glue of friendships and bonds and so your home like

00:33:04.240 don't sweat it the only thing that you really need to do is if you have no time doing anything else

00:33:09.040 is like you have to clean your bathroom don't be don't be an animal and in fact that's the one

00:33:13.280 place people are going to be alone under bright lighting at some point in the evening

00:33:17.380 so make sure that's dialed in but also might want to peek in your medicine cabinet because one of

00:33:21.740 your guests might so make sure everything in there is fine with you're fine with other people seeing

00:33:26.420 and then after that look the kitchen can stay a mess we actually think coming into like seeing that

00:33:32.040 kitchen that people are cooking in has this sense of industry it has this sense of fun and you know

00:33:37.420 that's often where a lot of the early parties happening someone's spinning around they're

00:33:41.120 frying this they're doing that bottles are open boxes are open that's actually kind of cool and fun

00:33:46.560 and then you know your living room we just need all you need and this is one of the dinner party

00:33:51.480 rules is a table this is why buffets and potlucks aren't really dinner parties because you need a

00:33:56.320 table that everyone can sit around that's where conversation can happen so you have one clean

00:34:00.020 table you know do a quick scan of the room make sure you don't have like a bicycle part on your

00:34:04.460 cordenza or like you know last year's um you know backpackers guide to vietnam or something laying

00:34:10.600 around and then the lighting the less the better this is basically like an instagram filter on your

00:34:16.260 life everyone prefers dim lighting it makes them all look younger it adds a sense of romance but

00:34:21.960 and then pile the coats on on uh on a bed and that that's all you got to do all you got to do so what

00:34:27.620 do you do after you eat right like food's been eaten there's conversations happen like what do you do

00:34:32.140 you play what do you play charades you dance you just keep talking i mean what's your i mean d all the

00:34:37.240 above we we have a different we have a couple paths to what you can do at the at the end of a

00:34:40.900 dinner party you know sometimes like the table's cleared some desserts come out and that can be as

00:34:45.860 simple as like just three chocolate bars you know broken open and shared with people but it can be

00:34:50.960 more complex if if you we we allow you to outsource a cake if you need to but once that's done and people

00:34:55.940 are coffee i think that this is an underrated part of the dinner parties in fact the reason i have

00:35:00.580 dinner parties is for the moment you are talking about right now which is everyone now is like you know

00:35:05.600 maybe a little bit of loose they've had some good conversation they've taken everyone's measure

00:35:09.040 there's been some music playing in the background this is like the delicious art of being an adult

00:35:14.000 you have a babysitter at home you don't have to go to work the next day or if you do you've already

00:35:17.560 adjusted for it in your mind and we say say you know savor these moments and you can go a couple

00:35:24.020 different ways one is everyone just if you have enough space they paddle into the living room

00:35:27.900 and they're just laying on the couch and you're playing music and if people want to have a cigarette

00:35:32.080 they can do that if people want something more than a cigarette if the host is willing they can

00:35:36.480 do that too now would be the time sit back finish the wine and this is where really deep conversation

00:35:42.220 can go on you can you can follow through on things or as you mentioned there there are a bunch of games

00:35:47.740 that can be played we are a little less pro parlor game i am because i feel like they're a little bit

00:35:53.340 pushy because if you don't play them you feel ostracized but we can see the value in them if

00:35:57.620 everyone's gaming we have a list of games people can play and then i'm a big advocate for the i call

00:36:03.740 it the the pdpdp which is the post dinner party dance party and and i think that this is again for

00:36:10.000 adults who don't you know why why should we live a life where we only dance and we go to someone's

00:36:14.440 wedding anymore you know but i'm not going to go to the club anymore like i like i don't go out

00:36:19.300 dancing unfortunately so this is a space to do it if you have the right crowd you've been playing music

00:36:24.800 and we have a whole chapter about playlists and music etc this would be the time maybe like phase

00:36:29.420 in some maybe upbeat music and you can you can do a little dancing this is the beauty of not being

00:36:34.760 at a brunch spot where people are ushering you out the door because they need to flip the table to make

00:36:38.560 more money and you see 35 people giving you the death glare from behind the host stand this is the

00:36:43.820 time where you can just lounge you can dance you can pick up a guitar you can you can you can do

00:36:49.840 whatever you want it's a golden moment well so you said dinner parties are sort of open into no end

00:36:54.060 time what if you got an early day the next day how do you give people the hint that you know it's

00:37:00.320 time to time to head out i mean i mean you should have you should you should have thought about that

00:37:05.260 before you had your dinner parties but things do come up you're having this on a thursday and all

00:37:08.220 a sudden projects do you know we actually in the book we have a flow chart called should i kick these

00:37:13.320 guys out and it's very elaborate and and we you know i would refer you directly to that i can't

00:37:18.360 completely do it justice here but the truth and but the rules of the flow chart are kind of what we've

00:37:23.020 talked about like is it a weekday it's like uh it's like no all right well is it after midnight

00:37:28.860 no like what you know like it gives you paths to like you know maybe you should keep this party going

00:37:33.820 but again that's the host they can close it you're not you don't have to be a victim to someone else

00:37:38.660 who doesn't want to go face their home life again gotcha well hey brendan this has been a great

00:37:42.880 conversation is there any where people can go to learn more about the book in your work yeah they can

00:37:46.640 go to uh brunchishell.com it's our website that talks about the book and it also kind of talks

00:37:52.580 about some of the other projects rico and i are working on i'm also executive producer of the

00:37:56.560 parish review podcast right now it also sends you to the dinner party download our podcast uh that

00:38:02.160 gives background on on to prepare you for your dinner party so yeah brunchishell.com is where they

00:38:07.040 can learn more fantastic brendan noonum thank you so much your time it's been a pleasure hey thanks

00:38:10.880 so much for having me my guest here is brendan noonum he is the co-author of the book brunch

00:38:14.800 is hell it's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere also check out his podcast

00:38:18.960 the dinner party download where you get more insights and advice on how to host a killer

00:38:22.820 dinner party also check out our show notes at aom.is slash brunch is hell where you find

00:38:27.320 links to resources where you delve deeper into this topic

00:38:29.700 well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast

00:38:44.580 for more manly tips and advice make sure to check out the art of manliness website

00:38:47.620 from art of manliness.com and if you enjoy the podcast i'd appreciate it if you take a minute

00:38:51.480 to hear your review on itunes or stitcher helps out a lot and if you've already done that thank you

00:38:55.500 please share the show with your friends and family members word of mouth is how this thing

00:38:59.360 grows as always thank you for your continued support until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay

00:39:04.020 you

The Art of Manliness - February 08, 2018

#378： Brunch Is Hell; Dinner Parties Are Heaven

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript