The Art of Manliness - #381： Why You Should Let Your Kids Fail

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast if you're a parent

00:00:18.860 you likely want your kid to flourish and succeed and according to my guest today the best way to

00:00:22.740 do that is to let your kid fail her name is jessica lahey and she's a teacher and the author

00:00:26.780 of the book the gift of failure how the best parents learn to let go so their children can

00:00:30.700 succeed today on the show jessica gives us a quick overview of the history of parenting in america

00:00:34.680 and why it's gotten more productive and why it's gotten more protective and more involved in the

00:00:38.520 past few decades we then discuss the many downsides of helicopter parenting and why letting your kids

00:00:42.960 fail is so important for their long-term development jessica then gets to the nitty-gritty of areas where

00:00:47.740 you should let your kid experience failure and how to make sure those failures become learning

00:00:50.860 experiences after the show's over check out the show notes at aom.is slash gift of failure

00:00:56.780 jessica lahey welcome to the show thank you so much for having me so you published a book called

00:01:13.320 the gift of failure how the best parents learn to let go so their children can succeed the backstory

00:01:19.860 behind this book is interesting because you're a middle school teacher god bless you and you're tasked

00:01:24.720 with shepherding these kids into competent adulthood like they're that weird phase of life

00:01:29.400 where they're not like it's just weird but you describe in the book you discovered that you were

00:01:34.440 failing at this job at home with your own kids tell us the backstory in that realization you had

00:01:38.960 yeah so full disclosure i actually i've taught for the past 20 years i've taught every grade between

00:01:44.560 six and 12 i actually uh currently i teach kids who are in an inpatient drug and alcohol rehab setting

00:01:51.720 so i teach high school english and writing i don't get to teach middle school kids that often anymore

00:01:56.540 now that i'm on the road so much but this this job of teaching the the drug and alcohol rehab kids

00:02:01.540 keeps me just continuously entertained but yeah that's exactly what happened is i was noticing that

00:02:07.680 my students were not only less motivated to learn for the sake of learning which is sort of a constant

00:02:14.500 problem teachers are up against but they were also less able to learn and a lot of that seemed to be

00:02:22.440 coming somewhere from this like this more directive parenting style this or you can call it over

00:02:28.700 parenting you can call it helicopter parenting in the research they call it a directive parenting style

00:02:33.900 and i was pissed i mean i was i was really i mean i i admit this when i talked to parents i was pissed

00:02:40.700 off at my students parents for really just derailing so many learning opportunities and at that moment

00:02:48.580 when i was at sort of peak pissed off i realized that my own child who was nine at the time didn't

00:02:56.000 know how to tie his own shoes and i i joke that you know when in cartoons when the lightning bolt comes

00:03:02.600 down and explodes or lights the main character on fire and they're you know reduced to an incinerated

00:03:08.300 sort of pile of steaming ash that's what i was because you know as pissed off as i wanted to be

00:03:13.280 at the parents of my students i had to admit that i was just like them so you know the book really

00:03:18.180 came out of this interest in helping my students learn better and be better learners be more resilient

00:03:24.320 but it became pretty urgent when i realized that i was doing the exact same thing that those other parents

00:03:30.180 were doing to their kids to my own kids and i had handicapped my own children not just in terms of their

00:03:35.040 resilience and their ability to just do stuff but it turns out that the research is pretty clear that

00:03:40.940 it undermines kids ability to learn so like the very things we're trying to do to make our kids

00:03:47.340 succeed in school are actually undermining their ability to learn okay so let's talk about how we

00:03:51.460 got here uh so this the guiding ethos of parenting nowadays yeah he's directive parenting over parenting

00:03:56.540 helicopter parent whatever you want to call it right what was it like in the past and how did we get to

00:04:01.480 this point you know what were the cultural shifts that occurred because you kind of give this history

00:04:04.960 of parenting in your book which is really interesting that was really fun to to write also because you

00:04:10.400 know those history sort of how we got here chapters tend to be on the boring side and so i was on like

00:04:15.440 this mission to make the history chapter as entertaining as possible and it was really fun i you know it

00:04:21.080 really is multifactorial so we have kids later in a our age you know when we're older we have kids

00:04:26.920 after we've been out on the workforce for for a while we have fewer kids the state the media has

00:04:32.720 us believing that you know things are terribly dire that our children are never going to get into

00:04:37.700 college they're certainly not going to do better than we did economically so you know everything is

00:04:43.760 just really dire everything's an emergency everything has to be perfect like in this moment and

00:04:48.580 and it's not really our fault in the sense that you know the media like i said has told us that

00:04:55.660 you know our children are being enticed online every single day there's someone waiting on every

00:05:00.160 street corner to abduct our children and sexually abuse them and you know they're never getting into 0.88

00:05:04.220 college anyway but at the same time you know we're using a lot of the tools that we used out in the

00:05:10.620 workforce to sort of manage our parenting like i cannot tell you how many parents i've spoken to that

00:05:16.340 have spreadsheets where either you know when the kids are really little it's you know in what goes in

00:05:21.240 and what comes out like they're recording their poo and their pee and how much they eat and all that 0.54

00:05:26.200 kind of stuff or and now parents can log on anytime they want to these grading portals that schools

00:05:33.620 have opened up for parents use and they're logging on many many many times a day i talk to parents who

00:05:39.500 actually keep the portal open and just kind of hit refresh all day long so we're using all these

00:05:44.180 tools like databases and spreadsheets to track our kids progress and all of that is because we just

00:05:50.520 want to know if we're doing okay because you know we don't get we're used to performance reviews

00:05:55.160 but we just got to go with what we got which is looking at our kids and seeing if our kids can give

00:05:59.920 us the feedback on how we're doing as parents and that's completely unfair to them putting a lot of

00:06:04.780 stress and anxiety on our kids i'm hearing from kids all the time you know i don't understand why

00:06:10.620 my parents expect me to be perfect because i can't be perfect i'm trying as hard as i can and i can't

00:06:15.860 so you know we're judging our own parenting based on our kids and that's just completely unfair

00:06:20.700 right i mean i think i think you mentioned this in the book like in the past like parents thought

00:06:25.700 their job was like keep your kids safe your job wasn't to make them happy but now it's like okay

00:06:31.380 we're keeping them safe and you got to make them happy well and i'm certainly not the first one to

00:06:36.340 point this out but you know it used to be called child rearing so it was very child centered and now

00:06:41.400 it's called parenting it's very parent centered and we freak each other out you know we go to

00:06:47.080 all these soccer games and we sit in the waiting room outside you know while the kids are having

00:06:51.880 their music lesson and we talk about like the traveling soccer leagues and how many awards our

00:06:56.560 kids are getting and we we sort of freak each other out and and we're doing it to each other

00:07:02.040 um and that's you know that's something that we need each other to get out of too you know a lot of

00:07:08.500 parents are like you know how do i i don't want to be the first one to step back because then

00:07:13.400 everyone's going to assume that i'm not doing my job and you know i think we got to start undoing

00:07:19.260 what we've been doing to each other we're each other's own best supports as well right and i'm

00:07:23.080 sure the internet and social media is like just exacerbated the problem because yeah yeah absolutely

00:07:27.620 you know the instagramming you know the dirty laundry is off on the outside of the picture so no one

00:07:32.340 can see it and you know we're making our lives look fairly curated and we're making our kids look

00:07:37.580 really curated too and that's teaching them to you know there's all sorts of stuff that's happening

00:07:43.500 to them in terms of their social media use that we're just feeding into because as the more we

00:07:47.920 curate our own lives and curate their existence on social media the more they're going to do the same

00:07:52.840 okay so let's talk about the downsides of this sort of directive parenting i mean what does the research

00:07:57.920 say what's happening to kids because of this over direct over over parenting well there's a couple of

00:08:03.440 things we need to talk about i suppose the first one is you know anyone who's familiar with dan pink

00:08:08.700 and the work that drive was based on edward dc's work how why we do what we do the science of self

00:08:13.480 motivation knows that you know we have 40 years of really good research that shows that extrinsic

00:08:18.420 motivators don't work if you want to get your kid to do something if you want to get anyone to do

00:08:22.240 something so really if you want kids to do something that requires long-term focus and if you want kids to do

00:08:29.300 things that require creativity then giving them something like you know paying them for their

00:08:34.240 grades giving them a car if they stay on the honor roll surveillance you know going on the portal

00:08:39.860 knowing where your kids are all the time because you're tracking them on their phone and i'm not

00:08:43.880 saying we shouldn't do any of these things i'm just pointing out these are extrinsic motivators and

00:08:48.920 they undermine motivation so in other words you know if you don't if you want your kid to not want to

00:08:55.480 learn math pay them for their math grades it's really quite clear the research is really really

00:09:01.840 clear and we know the research is solid because we have studies of the studies we have metadata

00:09:06.140 so that's one side of it what we want is intrinsic motivation which requires us to give our kids more

00:09:13.000 autonomy which is kind of like independence give them more control over the details of their lives

00:09:17.880 help them feel competent which is not the same thing as confident and be really connected to our kids

00:09:25.280 parents and the problem is is that under parenting undermines a couple of these things number one

00:09:31.300 it undermines your connection with your kid because i don't know how you feel at the end of the day after

00:09:37.300 nagging your kid to do your their homework about 100 times but i feel terrible and it's not good for our

00:09:41.660 relationships but also kids who are more directed by their parents kids who are told you know do this

00:09:47.920 first then do this no no do it this way not that way no no the dishes don't go in the dishwasher that

00:09:52.340 way they go this way no no don't use a hammer that way use it this way kids who are told how to do

00:09:57.660 things step by step are less able to be frustrated they don't like develop the emotional wherewithal to

00:10:05.520 know how to be frustrated so when you put those kids in a room by themselves to do something without

00:10:12.320 you know a person there to direct them you know when we give kids directions and we we make their lives

00:10:18.700 very step by step they don't develop the emotional wherewithal they need in order to be frustrated

00:10:24.180 and two of the most important teaching tools i have as a teacher require kids to be able to be

00:10:30.820 frustrated these things called desirable difficulties giving kids work that's a little bit above their

00:10:36.040 ability level and then letting them figure things out for themselves and giving kids constructive

00:10:42.040 feedback on sort of a daily basis so they can see where they are where they're with their learning

00:10:46.500 those things don't work with kids who can't hear negative feedback and who can't get frustrated and

00:10:51.400 those kids are harder to teach you know i i can tell when a kid is being over parented from pretty much

00:10:57.180 the first day of class because i you know they're the kids who are constantly raising their hands and

00:11:02.500 saying what do i do next what do i do next and you know that i'd rather have kids of average

00:11:08.320 intelligence who can be frustrated than super genius kids who don't know how to be frustrated

00:11:13.780 they're just you know kids who can persist kids who are a little more resilient kids who can

00:11:19.520 you know take a breath and say oh no wait a second i think i can figure this out those kids learn

00:11:24.840 better learn better than their peers who can't be frustrated anyway and you also highlight and i've

00:11:29.980 been seeing more research about this too is that this sort of rising generation of kids like they're

00:11:34.620 more anxious yeah and have a lot of anxiety problems and depression issues and it might stem from the

00:11:40.240 over parent because they're always told what to do they don't know how to deal with uncertainty

00:11:43.260 you know there's it's that yes but you know a lot of it i think actually also has to do with the

00:11:48.500 fact that we expect kids like i said i hear this all the time we expect kids to be perfect we expect

00:11:53.320 them to be good athletes and good musicians and great in school and never get anything below an a

00:11:59.640 and that's you know that's part of the pressure but the rest of it the thing that i think is

00:12:04.600 actually really hurting them is that we expect them to do that effortlessly to never break a sweat

00:12:11.760 to never make it look like they have to work too hard because and i have to you know shout out to

00:12:18.280 carol dweck and her work in the in the book mindset you know these kids tend tend to believe that um

00:12:25.200 because we tell them they're smart all the time and we tell them how accomplished they are all the time

00:12:30.400 that the minute they look like they're having to put out an effort we're not going to believe them

00:12:35.900 about that them anymore if they look like they have to work hard then you know maybe they're not

00:12:41.300 just naturally smart maybe they're just you know faking it so it's this weird catch-22 you know i need

00:12:49.260 kids to raise their hands and admit when they don't know something i need kids to take challenge

00:12:54.140 problems so that they can you know embrace these desirable difficulties and yet kids who believe that

00:13:00.220 if they show any weakness then they're less than perfect and they're not as smart as we think

00:13:04.320 they are are less likely to raise their hands and ask for help and less likely to admit they don't

00:13:08.920 know something and less likely to take challenge problems so the very things that you know telling

00:13:15.840 kids constantly how smart they are how talented they are how genius they are undermines a kid's ability

00:13:21.920 or the likelihood that a kid will push themselves to move outside their comfort zone because when i ask kids

00:13:28.660 about this they always they're they're so cute they're always really clear they're like well of

00:13:32.980 course we're not going to take the challenge problems because we don't want to get anything

00:13:37.080 wrong because then you're going to know we're not as smart as you think we are and of course we're not

00:13:41.500 going to raise our hand in class because then you'll know that we're not as smart as and our peers will

00:13:46.520 know and our parents will know so keep the challenge problems away don't ask us any questions

00:13:51.580 don't ask us to admit when we don't know something and we'll just pretend that we know everything

00:13:55.360 and hopefully uh learn something along the way and that's just that's not where good learning happens

00:14:01.020 right and you highlight this in the book too not only that expectation of perfection and effortless

00:14:05.100 perfection prevents students from taking on challenges but it also sort of acts as a what's the word

00:14:12.560 i'm looking for you know a source of cheating like it makes people want to cheat right because

00:14:17.040 they got to be perfect yeah carol carol dweck showed that pretty clearly in one of her experiments 0.85

00:14:22.240 that i just love that when you ask kids to report self-report their grades kids who have been sort of

00:14:29.300 set up to have a fixed mindset about intelligence that it's this thing that you either have or don't

00:14:33.700 have they're more likely to lie about their scores because well of course because they want you to

00:14:39.880 think that they're smart and they'll defend that at any turn and there's a book i love called cheating

00:14:45.300 lessons by james m lang and in his book he makes it really clear he says look if you want to create a

00:14:50.100 classroom full of cheaters just keep telling him how smart telling them how smart they are

00:14:54.120 and foster this fixed mindset what we should be doing actually is foster is making sure kids

00:14:59.980 understand that intelligence is malleable that the more you push yourself out of your comfort zone

00:15:04.780 the more you'll learn the more you can learn things that are different and new and the more connections

00:15:10.740 you'll make in your brain and yes telling them that is great and teaching them about that about it

00:15:16.840 about that is great but where we really seem to be falling down on the job is by modeling that and

00:15:22.040 so i'm a big fan of you know talking to our kids when we screw up and showing them that we're willing

00:15:28.580 to try things that are scary for us because you know we can blah blah blah as much as we want but they

00:15:34.440 stop listening after a while uh what they really believe is what they see and if we're modeling that

00:15:40.300 sort of approach that fearless approach to things that are a little bit scary then you know i think

00:15:45.500 they're a lot more likely to take our word for it okay so controlling parenting directed parenting is

00:15:51.000 like something we don't want to do what sort of parenting should we take what does the research

00:15:54.920 say that sort of the style ethos is the most conducive to producing you know well-adjusted competent

00:16:00.220 kids i i actually refer to the research of this woman named wendy grolnick and in one experiment she

00:16:05.740 had parents come in and and she gave the kids a task to do and she watched the parents to see how the

00:16:12.020 parents dealt with really general instructions which was be there with while your child completes

00:16:17.100 this task and the parents who were really really directive about with their kids where they you

00:16:22.560 know told the kids how to do the task and gave them step-by-step instructions when the parents were

00:16:27.440 removed from the situation and the kids had to try a task on their own the kids were a lot less likely

00:16:31.800 to be able to finish it on their own by contrast the parents who sort of were just there and supportive

00:16:38.840 while the kids did the task the way they wanted to do the task and if the kids got frustrated which

00:16:44.980 by the way the task they were given was a little frustrating on purpose the parents that sort of

00:16:50.440 helped the kid refocus maybe repeated the instructions but didn't give the answers those

00:16:56.080 parents were termed autonomy supportive parents and that is just what it sounds like it supports the

00:17:01.960 kids autonomy to do something the way they want to do it and to make the mistakes and to figure out

00:17:07.820 what part of the mistake not to bring forward with them and to know how to do it differently the next

00:17:13.120 time that autonomy supportive parents parenting style doesn't mean that we you know abandon our

00:17:18.660 kids and say hey here's you know replace this carburetor good luck here's a youtube video um you

00:17:25.120 know there are parents that are nearby and and present but not right on top of the kids not reteaching

00:17:31.220 algebra one when the kid doesn't understand you know one tiny homework problem these are parents that

00:17:37.340 say you know why don't you think about it a different way or i noticed that you did this

00:17:42.880 differently four problems ago why do you think you did it differently four problems ago and now you're

00:17:47.520 having problems here with this math problem autonomy supportive parenting is is pretty magic stuff because

00:17:52.960 the more you let your kids have autonomy the more competent they're going to feel and the more

00:17:58.240 competent they feel the more they feel like they can attack things and can handle things that are

00:18:02.720 beyond their ability level so it's this wonderful self self-perpetuating cycle and the other cool

00:18:09.700 thing i get a lot of letters from parents who have gone ahead and you know backed off a little and let

00:18:15.400 the kid you know start loading the dishwasher or putting dishes away or whatever the thing is the

00:18:20.260 thing that the parent thought the kid could never handle on their own and i you know they always say

00:18:24.980 you know yes yes my kid is much more competent now and that's fantastic and they're much more

00:18:29.240 autonomous now and that's fantastic but what's really magical are the letters that explain that

00:18:34.400 once their kid had more autonomy and became more competent that their relationship with their kid

00:18:40.300 improved and i hear that over and over and over and it's certainly been true in my own family the more

00:18:46.820 we're spending time talking about things that really matter to the kid as opposed to you know

00:18:51.260 have you finished that math homework yet nah you did this wrong i do it differently

00:18:55.100 that's that's the great stuff right there like the idea that we can improve our relationships with

00:19:00.700 our kids if we actually leave them alone more and give them you know just less guidance as to how to

00:19:06.420 get things done perfectly i that's that's pretty important to me to make sure that parents understand

00:19:12.100 that this is about our relationships with our kids too not just about raising competent adults

00:19:16.920 but the thing it sounds great but it's also really hard to do right because like you see your

00:19:23.200 kids i've had this experience you watch your kid doing something yeah and they're doing it completely

00:19:27.560 wrong right and so it's like something that sort of something that should have just taken a minute

00:19:32.100 ends up taking 10 minutes you're just like all right just you're so tempted i've done it before

00:19:36.200 sometimes i just take it let me do it so how do you resist that urge to step in and just be like

00:19:40.820 this is going to be a lot easier if i just do it well i can tell you right now it's going to be a

00:19:45.260 lot harder for parents who are obsessive compulsive and i can tell you right now i like the dishwasher

00:19:50.940 you know loaded in a certain way i like east west not north south you know that kind of thing

00:19:56.620 and i i like things the way i like them and that was really hard to get over i think the easiest way

00:20:02.620 to start thinking differently about it is to start thinking long term our kids growth and development

00:20:09.320 our kids learning our kids becoming more competent it doesn't happen in these like in moment to moment it

00:20:17.180 happens long term so if you can start thinking okay i gotta think where do i want my kid to be in

00:20:24.920 six months or a year do i want my kid to get the dishwasher loaded perfectly right this very second

00:20:30.400 or in six months would i like to know that my kid will do this on their own without me reminding them

00:20:36.480 do i need this math homework to be perfect for the teacher and by the way stop doing your kid's

00:20:43.660 homework because homework is information for the teacher like when i see homework that clearly

00:20:48.740 parents have meddled in i get a good sense of what the parents know but it doesn't give me great

00:20:53.780 information about what the kid is learning so do i want this homework to be perfect or you know in six

00:20:59.660 months do i want my kid to really understand this concept and to be responsible for doing their

00:21:04.920 homework completely getting it in their backpack making sure they get it out of their backpack getting

00:21:09.380 it in their teacher's hands when we deliver items that have been forgotten at home you know it makes

00:21:15.560 us feel great it makes us feel like we're you know really we got our kids back and we're really doing

00:21:21.380 this parenting thing and by the way that teacher saw me deliver that homework so now they know i'm

00:21:25.800 really on the job but i would much rather have a kid that you know down the road will remember to

00:21:31.760 take the homework themselves and allow them to suffer the consequences in the short term so that in the

00:21:37.280 long run i have a kid who's much more competent and that's you know just thinking long term is the

00:21:43.060 first step and the second step is to start thinking more about process over product stop

00:21:48.400 being so obsessed with the perfect homework assignment and the a and the perfect score and

00:21:55.060 start thinking more about whether or not your kid's learning something in the moment that you choose to

00:22:00.560 step in uh it's it's really hard it's hard to hold your tongue and it's hard to

00:22:05.360 keep from just doing it for them because you can do it better you can do it faster you can do it right

00:22:10.620 but every time we step in and do something for our kids because we feel like we can do it better

00:22:15.520 they don't appreciate that as oh great i don't have to do that they hear my parents don't think i'm

00:22:22.460 competent enough to do that myself and we're actually undermining their competence and their

00:22:27.380 confidence every time we step in and take over for them so long term over short term process over

00:22:33.680 product those are my two big hints perfect so what i love about the rest of the book so you kind of lay

00:22:38.740 out this overarching philosophy but then you get into specific areas where parents can help their

00:22:44.760 children experience failure in a safe environment where the like the stakes are completely low that

00:22:50.760 will hopefully build that resilience and competency they want so the first part you talk about is

00:22:55.120 household duties is probably the what parents can do right away yeah so again like i said it's hard to

00:23:01.500 do because you could probably do this stuff a lot faster and a lot better than they're gonna drop

00:23:07.660 stuff and they're gonna break stuff and you know food is gonna get hardened on the plate but the cool

00:23:13.940 thing about you know household duties is you know like you said the stakes are so low and you know i call

00:23:19.120 them household duties actually for a reason you know i used to call them chores but frankly do you want

00:23:25.480 to do something called a chore i mean that sounds like kind of a bummer to me and their house i call

00:23:30.600 them household duties because they're part of what we do to support each other as a family

00:23:34.240 i love love love ron lieber's book the opposite of spoiled which is about kids and money and it's

00:23:40.540 he's really clear he's the your money columnist at the new york times we don't pay kids to do

00:23:46.740 household duties because kids are supposed to do household duties because that's part of being a part 0.87

00:23:52.600 of the family not because you're getting paid for it money and allowance is about budgeting and

00:23:57.360 learning about money so you know household duties sort of conveys this you know if you're not going

00:24:02.580 to do it who is going to do it and it's going to have to be someone else in the family and that's

00:24:06.280 going to be you know why why does that person have to do it not you so getting that through from a

00:24:13.920 really young age helps kids understand that they have responsibilities in the family and the coolest

00:24:18.560 part about that is there's a bunch of studies that show that when kids have a hand in helping the

00:24:25.780 family on a day-to-day basis even if it's just little stuff like putting dishes away that they're

00:24:31.040 more resilient emotionally that they're less likely to be emotionally harmed when big stuff goes down

00:24:38.540 like a divorce or a death or you know really big stuff stressful stuff they're a lot less likely

00:24:44.640 to be harmed by that if they feel like they're participating in keeping the family going

00:24:49.160 and they're proud of themselves and they're the number of pictures i get via email and and uh my

00:24:58.140 website and stuff of kids doing stuff parents didn't expect that they were going to be able to do

00:25:03.500 just it blows my mind it's it's so cool and the look on the kids faces like check me out look at what

00:25:10.920 i'm doing it's just amazing to me i you know they're amazing pictures and i'm just so it's amazing it's

00:25:18.540 such a great day for me when i get one of those emails because because it's like yeah there's

00:25:22.280 another kid who feels like they're competent and whose parent understands that the more they help

00:25:26.960 their field feel their kid feel competent the more competent their kid will become um it's it's cool

00:25:32.280 stuff so how young should kids get started with household duties as young as they're able to pick up a

00:25:39.580 toy and put it back in the box they got it out of i mean the nice thing is i'm talking like

00:25:44.100 language from really early on is that you know we take care of each other and we take care of our

00:25:50.020 things and that starts from toddlerhood on and i'm not talking about you know before a toddler goes

00:25:56.040 to bed they have to have their entire room clean in fact i i my one of our positions my positions is

00:26:01.960 that in our house kids get so little autonomy over their lives and their stuff that kids rooms are

00:26:07.680 their own domain i don't i don't expect my kids to keep their room clean because it's just not

00:26:12.840 that's not my business it's not my stuff but kids little toddlers can you know put a sippy cup in the

00:26:19.460 bottom shelf of the dishwasher you know have a place down low where kids can get their own cup out

00:26:24.420 have a stool have snacks for you know pre-prepare things for kids lunches like carrots and you know

00:26:32.460 some pre-slice things and put them down low in the refrigerator where kids can reach them themselves

00:26:36.740 and put their own lunches together there's a little bit of anecdotal evidence there's never i haven't

00:26:41.800 seen a big study on this but there's anecdotal evidence to show that when kids prepare their

00:26:46.300 own lunches there's less food waste they throw less of their lunch away and they eat more of their

00:26:51.500 own creation and if you help guide their tastes and you help guide their ingredients that food will be

00:26:57.560 healthier so you know i i don't make your kids lunches like from little little kids like from

00:27:04.240 kindergarten on help guide them make their lunches but don't just make their lunches and stick their

00:27:08.840 lunch in the bag and and you know have them have no hand in that it's it's really important to help

00:27:13.940 kids feel competent from a really young age like pre-k and i imagine you know as they get older

00:27:18.820 increase the level of responsibility and i i think would the guiding ethos be like have them do more

00:27:24.440 than you think they'd be able to do i always say i mean for all parents even parents of special needs

00:27:29.860 kids i say look pretend like there's a line you know we all have this sort of line of of of competence

00:27:36.500 for our kids what we think our kids can do and what we think our kids can't do and then let's just

00:27:40.940 stick our toe just beyond that line when i was doing research on um you know i made all these there

00:27:47.260 are all these lists in the books of in the gift of failure of what kids should be able to do at

00:27:52.480 certain ages and what's really mind-blowing is if you look back at lists from for example maria

00:27:58.060 montessori's lists of of chores kids could do at certain ages there are things that she expected

00:28:03.960 kids to be able to do at a very very young age that some parents look at it and say oh my gosh

00:28:08.280 my kid could never do that so i you know i did update the list for you know our new sense of you

00:28:13.900 know oh kids shouldn't you know can't do a lot of stuff that they used to be able to do um but at the

00:28:20.480 same time you know this isn't about manual dexterity this isn't about you know what our kids can

00:28:29.840 handle in terms of safety and you know i always try to remind parents that kids use knives safely

00:28:36.080 when they know how to use knives and they have been using them and that the knives are sharp

00:28:40.220 giving kids a dull knife is a really bad idea kids who don't know how to climb a tree because they've

00:28:45.580 never been allowed to do it are more likely to fall out because and you know step on a dead branch

00:28:51.620 that can't support their weight because they don't have any understanding of what a dead branch feels

00:28:57.440 like because they've never been able to experience that so there's a reason that we let kids explore

00:29:04.120 age appropriately and if we wait too long to give kids responsibilities and let them experience

00:29:10.900 things that are dangerous then we are actually setting up a situation where those dangerous

00:29:16.240 things become more dangerous for them because they don't have um a sense of what they can do and what

00:29:22.080 they can't do so it's really it was really fun to make those lists of what kids can and can't do

00:29:27.580 mainly because when you go across the country and you talk to people about what they think their kids

00:29:32.340 can and can't do there's such wild swings depending on how much parents have let kids be competent in

00:29:39.220 the first place um it was fun recently i got to watch a kid uh bring in some uh some horses just

00:29:47.180 because she's been doing it since she was really really little and she's like 12 and she's

00:29:50.920 bringing in these huge massive horses and sometimes two or three of them at a time and the person who

00:29:56.560 was with me has a 12 year old and she just looked at me like there is no way in the world my 12 year

00:30:00.580 old would ever be able to do that and i said well that's because she's never done it and because you

00:30:05.080 know the expectation is that she wouldn't have to do that kind of thing so start thinking a little

00:30:09.780 more be a little more open-minded push yourself just a little bit to just let your kid try something

00:30:15.720 first and see if they can do it you might be happily surprised so another area where kids can

00:30:21.460 experience failure and frustration are friendships right so they might get left out or they might make

00:30:26.580 friends but i mean peers as you highlight in the book have such a big influence on kids more so than

00:30:33.740 parents you know especially when they get in those middle school years how how do you as a parent

00:30:38.340 like handle that because you know you might you might notice your kid hanging out with the wrong

00:30:42.960 group of kids but you don't want to tell them you can't hang like what do you do about that

00:30:46.580 well it's so you have to understand sort of why kids make friendships so you know when they're

00:30:53.460 really really little you know it's up to us it's proximity you know we choose our friends and then

00:30:58.600 the kids of those friends tend to be their friends and it works out great and you know we get to have

00:31:03.800 total control over who their friends are and that's fine for kids that are really really young because

00:31:09.060 you know friendships at that point um aren't really about exploring identity they're more

00:31:14.660 about play and things like that as they get older and especially when you get like towards middle

00:31:19.620 school friendships become more about exploring identity trying on other people's identity trying

00:31:25.240 on you know things they see in other people and they start becoming more outwardly focused and

00:31:31.560 understanding that our kids are going to be friends with some kids that make us nervous along the way

00:31:37.380 shouldn't be a reason for us to say no no you can't be friends with that kid and of course i'm

00:31:43.220 talking within reasonable limits i my older son who's now 19 had a friend when he was young that

00:31:49.380 scared the death it scared me to death he was a risk taker he'd broken like 10 bones before sixth grade

00:31:56.220 he liked to throw himself off of high places with no regard for his safety and i was positive that come time

00:32:03.040 you know for driving that that kid there's no way i was going to let my kid get in a car with that

00:32:09.260 dangerous child but he matured and he changed over time and also my son was able to see him break all

00:32:15.740 these bones and say huh well that was kind of a boneheaded maneuver um you know he got to learn

00:32:20.980 more about his own limits by watching his friend and in a way i think we should be grateful when our kids

00:32:28.000 make friends with kids who are different from them who are experimenting with things that maybe

00:32:34.160 our child isn't experimenting with themselves because then our kid can look at them and say

00:32:39.100 you know huh that is or is not for me and if you have if your kid has a friend let's say your kid's a

00:32:45.060 teenager and they're making friends friends with kids who make you nervous rather than ban you know

00:32:51.440 your child from being able to be around that person which frankly is the fastest way to make your child

00:32:55.900 want to be around that person is to talk about friendships and say huh you know you've been

00:33:00.360 spending a lot of time with this kid and i've noticed that you don't really feel good about

00:33:04.360 yourself when you're around that kid i had this conversation with the mother of a girl recently

00:33:08.600 her daughter is friends with a really mean girl and it's making her daughter crazy and sad and depressed

00:33:16.180 and feel terrible about herself and you know the mom i encourage the mom to have conversations with

00:33:21.920 their daughter like you know every time you come home with um hanging out with so-and-so you just

00:33:26.400 seem sad and you don't seem yourself and what is it about your friendship with this person that you

00:33:31.260 value and you know model for them really good relationships that you have with people and talk

00:33:36.640 about those relationships um i talk a lot with my kids about the fact that the thing i love about

00:33:42.140 approaching 50 is that my relationships with my friends are no longer competitive relationships they're

00:33:48.440 supportive relationships and that's one of the great things about becoming an adult is you can

00:33:52.840 throw away that sort of need to be liked and popular and you can be more attuned to what strengthens

00:34:02.040 you as a person so having conversations with kids about what makes for good relationships is really

00:34:06.500 really important but if you start you know saying forget it you can't be around that person um you're

00:34:11.140 really probably going to drive your child toward that person so um it's you know it's a tricky

00:34:16.660 it's a tricky area um i got to write about it for a magazine called your teen and you know it's

00:34:22.700 really clear that middle school relationships and high school relationships are completely different

00:34:26.440 beasts than elementary school relationships and it's hard to lose control of who our kids are

00:34:31.860 friends with but that's what being a parent is all about kids are supposed to individuate supposed to

00:34:37.660 become their own people and if they try on relationships through other kids and not themselves

00:34:43.020 then great they've had a chance to try something on and uh not necessarily get that tattoo themselves

00:34:49.380 and say huh okay that's interesting maybe not for me but that's interesting so you know yes it's hard

00:34:56.800 so let's take a look at school because that's where parents i think are probably the most paranoid

00:35:01.060 about their kid failing because no we're not yeah we're totally there's a lot of con you know

00:35:06.360 conflict going on there on the one hand we said earlier extrinsic motivation doesn't produce

00:35:12.080 you know self-directed people right right but school the way it's set up in most places like

00:35:18.080 we have grades it's all about extrinsic motivation and getting the good test score and getting to the

00:35:22.680 great college so how do you balance that as a parent where you're trying to okay balance these

00:35:29.340 short-term demands of getting good grades and getting into college with at the same time want to i want

00:35:34.240 to create a child or help rear a child who has just this who wants to learn for the sake of learning

00:35:40.180 because he wants to this is one of the most i i do this video series on on uh youtube about frequently

00:35:47.280 asked questions about the gift of failure and this one's right up there because yeah you know parents

00:35:51.960 are like okay yeah i'm with you this is great evidence backs up the fact that we should not be

00:35:56.420 using extrinsic motivators with kids okay now screw you because you're a teacher and you're telling my

00:36:00.320 kid every single day that grades are important and you give points and you give grades and you give

00:36:04.980 scores and that's absolutely true and it's been one of the hardest things to deal with and you know

00:36:11.480 while i'd love to say look we need to reform the education system and grades stink which they do

00:36:17.820 they're not about information they're about ranking kids and i've written about that at the atlantic and

00:36:23.180 in the new york times you know we have these grading portals that encourage parents to check

00:36:29.180 constantly and micromanage kids grades so i think the biggest things we can do are um realize that

00:36:37.360 kids are getting kids are hearing constantly how important grades and scores and all that stuff is

00:36:43.820 it's not like when we say to them sweetie this french test you have next period next uh friday is

00:36:49.140 really important or you know grades in your junior year those are the ones the colleges are going to see

00:36:53.780 this is not news to them so if home could be the one place where we're actually talking

00:36:59.000 about goals um this is something that i actually stole from what i do at school i was i mean i was

00:37:05.800 an advisor in middle school and one of the things i did constantly was talk with my um my advisees

00:37:10.760 about what their short-term and long-term goals for themselves were so that i could tap into and use

00:37:16.120 as levers the things that are important to them and you know if they say you know i they really i know

00:37:23.440 i know that their goal is to go to x college or to you know play soccer and in order to do that they

00:37:29.920 have to have a c or better then i can use that as leverage and say okay well how are you going to

00:37:33.840 achieve that goal goals are really really powerful things and it's the reason that the entire chapter

00:37:38.680 on grades in the book is really about how to help your how to talk to your kids about goals but that

00:37:44.420 also means that we have to model that for our kids the other thing unfortunately that we have to do

00:37:50.240 is just realize yes this is the system we're stuck with right now um as much as i'm optimistic that

00:37:57.100 the system is changing there are a there's a whole lot of people out there working to move away from

00:38:02.240 grades and move toward things these things called standards-based report cards standards-based learning

00:38:07.320 mastery oriented learning rather than getting a b minus and you know the parent goes in to talk to

00:38:13.760 the teacher and say okay great a b minus what does that mean what does my kid actually know how to do

00:38:19.520 um there are ways of of evaluating kids that that would give actual information about what they

00:38:25.380 know and don't know and that's called standards-based learning standards-based evaluation so until we have

00:38:31.840 that i think at what we have to realize is that our job as parents is to temper some of what they're

00:38:37.220 hearing everywhere to um give them space to breathe to you know i go to a lot of schools i get called into

00:38:45.380 a lot of schools that have had suicide clusters and they bring me in to help the parents understand

00:38:50.680 ways to talk to kids that aren't about heightening anxiety and are more about helping kids know what

00:38:58.360 their goals are and create their own strategies for achieving those goals and that's that's called

00:39:04.600 self-directed executive function and executive function is sort of you know one of the new big areas

00:39:09.280 if we can just strengthen executive function we can help kids learn better but that's true

00:39:13.380 so let's do a little bit more focusing on goals let's do a little bit more focusing on the process

00:39:18.620 of learning over the end product especially with kids who are anxious especially with kids who are

00:39:25.380 perfectionist the more we talk about process unless we talk about product the more we can get their

00:39:31.740 brains off of this spinning and spinning and spinning over the idea of getting you know a 100 instead of a 97

00:39:38.120 and the more we can focus them on okay but but what are you learning and how are you learning and

00:39:43.780 what study techniques are working well for you and what are you going to do next time if you got a low

00:39:48.220 grade this time all of that process talk is is really essential for helping kids get focused on

00:39:53.940 what's important and in the end it's not the grade that's important because grades are not great

00:40:00.060 indicators of learning anyway it's it's what's being mastered so that's our job as parents so also that

00:40:06.580 means no more doing the kids science fair yourself oh gosh yeah i got i've gotten to write about that

00:40:11.720 a couple places and there is nothing that will motivate a kid more and i say this from experience

00:40:17.520 than having to sit next to a really crappy trifold poster board with some made-up data at the last

00:40:27.300 second with sharpie drawn graphs that they know is crap and that everyone that stands in front of it 0.97

00:40:33.420 and asks them how they arrived at their data knows it's crap the kids embarrassed and um when that 0.98

00:40:40.620 happened with my own kid uh the kid the the project that my kid created the next year completely under 0.96

00:40:45.840 his own steam was amazing because he didn't want to endure what he had gone through the year before

00:40:51.420 where he knew he he just completely thrown his hands up in the air and given up and forgotten about it

00:40:58.120 and not planned well enough um the next year the thing he created was not only great from like an

00:41:04.480 objective you know or grade perspective whatever he was proud of it and uh and that letting my kid go

00:41:11.080 to the science fair with a piece of crap project was one of the best things i ever did for my kid 0.62

00:41:14.700 i love that well jessica this has been a great conversation where can people go to learn more 0.90

00:41:18.540 about the book and your work well everything is always at jessicalahey.com everything from the show

00:41:23.600 notes for the podcast i do about writing um with my former new york times editor kj delantonia called

00:41:28.700 hashtag am writing with jess and kj you can find me on twitter at jess lahey i mostly tweet about

00:41:35.000 education and child welfare and that kind of stuff you can find me at instagram at teacher lahey and

00:41:41.040 on facebook as well fantastic well jessica lahey thank you so much for time it's been a pleasure

00:41:44.740 you are so welcome thank you so much for having me my guest today was jessica lahey she's the author of

00:41:49.440 the book the gift of failure it's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere you can also find

00:41:53.580 out more about her work at jessicalahey.com also check out our show notes at aom.is

00:41:58.680 slash gift of failure where you can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic

00:42:02.340 well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice

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00:42:22.120 our podcast archives we got over 380 episodes there all available to listen to it's at artofmanliness.com

00:42:27.980 slash podcast while you're there make sure to subscribe and as always thank you for your

00:42:31.960 support until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay manly

00:42:35.140 bye

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The Art of Manliness - February 20, 2018

#381： Why You Should Let Your Kids Fail

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