The Art of Manliness - #383： The Virtues of the Masks of Masculinity

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast in the past few

00:00:18.580 years there's been a lot written about the ills of the mass of masculinity these supposed social

00:00:22.960 masks are the source of personal problems in the lives of men as well as countless societal

00:00:26.400 problems but what if the problem isn't the mask of masculinity themselves what if the problem is we

00:00:31.380 don't teach young man how to wear these masks in a way that's productive and pro-social that's what

00:00:35.880 my guest today suggests he makes his living teaching actors how to put on the mask of the

00:00:39.800 masculine soldier his name is dale die he's a retired marine captain who served in vietnam as

00:00:44.100 well as the owner of warriors inc a company that consults actors and filmmakers on how to make war

00:00:48.420 movies more realistic today on the show dale and i discuss how you went from a career in the military

00:00:52.060 to a career in film and what many filmmakers get wrong about war using war historian john keegan's

00:00:57.220 book the mask of command as a starting point dale and i discuss why social masks are necessary in

00:01:01.700 leadership war and even being a man dale shares insights about the mask of masculinity from years

00:01:06.360 of teaching actors how to be soldiers and why it's important to have multiple masks in your arsenal and

00:01:10.860 know when to put them on in different situations after the show's over check out the show notes at

00:01:14.680 aom.is slash dale die okay dale die welcome to the show thanks very much brett i appreciate your time

00:01:32.340 so you have a really interesting resume you started off your marine vet served in vietnam

00:01:38.940 gotten to showbiz we'll talk a bit about that author as well have done some acting

00:01:44.620 too so let's start from the beginning your military career you served in the marines

00:01:48.900 you you retired as a captain did you start off as a commissioned officer or is that something you

00:01:53.540 worked your way up to no i'm i'm what's known in the navy and the marine corps as a mustang i uh

00:01:59.300 i came up through the ranks i uh was 13 years enlisted made it to the rank of master sergeant

00:02:05.820 and then was kind of coerced by some folks who thought i might make a leader

00:02:11.040 into uh going to officer candidate school i became a warrant officer and later converted my commission

00:02:17.260 and by the time of my uh my last uh combat deployment which was beirut 82 83 i had become a captain

00:02:25.640 so i kind of came up through the hawse pipe right and uh it's interesting i've heard i've heard other

00:02:31.440 interviews and you've done a tedx talk talking about as a leader in the military you feel sometimes

00:02:36.740 feel like you're you're raising other people's children why why is that well i think the truthful

00:02:42.660 answer is that a lot of parents don't do such a good job at that and they send their young sons or

00:02:49.860 daughters off into the military or their young sons and daughters decide to go into the military

00:02:54.620 looking for something looking for some structure looking for some guidance looking for images and

00:03:00.780 examples that they sort of want to grow up into being and i've always thought that one of the

00:03:06.060 greatest and most significant tasks of a leader is to provide those images to provide that guidance to

00:03:12.200 provide that leadership not only in military aspects of life but just who you are and how you address

00:03:21.100 life and how you handle problems and how you stand up to adversity and i think i think that's one of the

00:03:27.100 key elements of leadership and and i've always shorthanded it by saying um i spent a lot of my

00:03:33.080 life raising other people's children right and as a leader so you you said that other people thought

00:03:38.520 you'd be a good leader when you were in the military was leadership something you aspired to or were you

00:03:43.040 just you were just there to do the work and if you got put in a leadership position then great

00:03:47.900 no i i think i have to say honestly that i aspired to be a leader i was influenced by so many

00:03:55.640 um that i saw that were my images the images i needed and i wanted to be that person i felt like

00:04:04.520 i had the the talent to do it the ability to do it the personality to pull it off and i thought

00:04:11.800 at first early on well let me test this let me dip my toe in the water and when i became a corporal

00:04:19.500 you know was i good at that or did i just suck at it and uh and i should you know go back to

00:04:25.300 just being a job guy and what i discovered was that it was a great joy it was it was fun

00:04:32.860 to be a good leader and was leadership something you felt okay you felt like you had a natural knack

00:04:37.900 for it but did you have to learn how to be a leader like did you have to be intentional about

00:04:42.560 being a good leader no lord yes i i wish it were true brett that leaders are born but they're not

00:04:49.660 and they never will be i don't think there are certain people who who gravitate to it who are

00:04:55.200 good at it i think i'm one of those but you have to learn the steps you have to and and very often

00:05:03.460 at least in my case you learn by screwing it up you learn what things are wrong you learn

00:05:09.260 people and i think that's the most crucial element of it you have to understand people i've i've often

00:05:15.460 said and still say that you have to love them to lead them people in the military in particular

00:05:21.220 have a very very high highly sophisticated bs filter they know when you're being true and when

00:05:31.300 you're being faithful and we're just putting on an act and and i understood that i learned that

00:05:37.300 that you can't just go out and be the you know the bonham nice guy you have to have that principle

00:05:44.780 of loving and caring about the people under your charge and and if you can do that and and the

00:05:52.160 sentiment is sincere the psychology is there then you'll develop the tools that you need to get the

00:06:00.380 job done were you uh intentional about reading books on leadership or was you were you more of a

00:06:05.520 i'm going to gain i'm going to gain my knowledge of leadership by experience i i think it went both

00:06:10.380 ways brad i think like all professional military people i'm an amateur historian i'm i'm sitting in

00:06:16.420 my library right now surrounded by about 1100 volumes and i've read every one of them you you can learn so

00:06:24.100 much by reading about the great leaders and this goes all the way back i mean caesar's gallic wars was

00:06:31.100 one of the first things i read about leadership so it it goes throughout our military history and i focused on

00:06:37.960 on military aspects uh some other people focus on political or business aspects but my focus was on

00:06:44.520 the military so i read these these biographies and i read the books about the battles and the actions

00:06:50.460 and the leaders role in them and then i began to sort of carve it down sort of focus it into

00:06:58.960 what what what did these people that i'm i'm reading about have what what did they demonstrate

00:07:06.860 bad and good and uh and so once once i had a few of those concepts in mind concepts that i'd gotten

00:07:14.280 through my reading i began to experiment with them began to try to be this guy or try to do what that guy

00:07:20.240 did and some was good some was bad some was situational but all of it was instructive all of it was

00:07:28.620 giving me uh was sharpening the tools i needed to be a good leader so uh there's a one military

00:07:36.760 historian that i that i've come across his name is john keegan he wrote a book called the mask of command

00:07:43.140 yes he did yeah and his whole argument is that when you're a leader you you have to put on

00:07:48.760 sometimes you gotta you gotta put on this mask that you aren't necessarily want to put on right

00:07:54.200 but you have to do it to get the job done do you think that's true yeah i do and but i i i don't

00:08:01.420 think i think it's painting with too broad a brush i love keegan's work and and the mask of command is

00:08:07.520 was one of is i can reach out and touch it right now it's it's one of the books i read regularly

00:08:12.840 but here's here's my experience when i was growing up and and studying leaders by looking at them

00:08:21.440 i was convinced at a young age that these guys weren't real people they were automatons they were

00:08:29.320 they were something that was carved out of solid granite somewhere along in their history and they

00:08:34.740 didn't have a human side so i i went that way and as i began to look and as i began to study and as i

00:08:41.560 began to know these people i discovered that yeah they're human they're people just like me and they

00:08:48.440 have the same concerns and they have the same fears they have the same irritants they have the

00:08:53.660 same things that make them smile and make them happy well that was a that was a major revelation

00:08:58.660 and then along came keegan and the mask man and i said aha i see they are putting on this mask of

00:09:06.320 command now the the thing that i think makes keegan's estimation too broad a brush is that there are so

00:09:14.840 many different masks of command and you have to you have to change your mask it can't be one thing that

00:09:24.240 you pull down over your face and now i'm dale the leader it's you've got to you've got to know what

00:09:31.040 mask to put on that will work in a specific situation let's see if i can give you an example

00:09:36.620 the the mask that you put on in a firefight when it's up to you to maneuver when it's up to you to get

00:09:44.620 people out and maneuvering and and moving under fire is one thing the mask that you need to put on

00:09:51.840 when you are dealing with an individual who has made a mistake or who has screwed up and is and

00:09:59.700 needs some discipline and you want to do that one-on-one you know praise in public and criticize

00:10:06.300 in in private that's a different mask and so the good leader learns to have a bunch of those masks

00:10:14.620 in his rucksack a bunch of those masks in his pocket and he can pull out the one that's required

00:10:20.340 now granted as keegan points out they all have common denominators there there's a commonality

00:10:28.200 between all of the masks but i think the really good leader the one who can be relied on in all

00:10:34.880 situations has many masks of leadership at his command and and how do you learn to put on you

00:10:43.320 know how do you learn to collect those masks and put them on in the right circumstance well that's

00:10:47.180 the hard part you learn that the first element is to learn that different masks are needed once you've

00:10:53.880 done that you've got to go about trying to develop different masks and you do that through study you do

00:10:59.920 that through trial and error you do that by watching other people succeed or screw up and you say well

00:11:05.980 that's that's mask that that guy is wearing won't work that sucks like a hoover vacuum cleaner there's no

00:11:12.820 way i'm gonna do that so that all of that experience shapes your masks and then the key is to know when to put

00:11:22.380 them on and that many times depends not only on the situation but on the individual you see leadership

00:11:30.240 is is not only about influencing people to do your will and accomplish a mission it's about knowing who

00:11:37.780 those people are and what they require for you to make them want to do your will right and i think

00:11:45.080 you're also trying to convince yourself right as a leader oh yeah yeah the the biggest mask is the

00:11:52.800 one that you wear when you're looking in the mirror right i i remember this this may sound dramatic but

00:11:58.580 it's true so i'm just going to relate it to you on the on the day at quantico virginia on the day that

00:12:04.580 i had been through officer candidate school and i'd been through the basic school and i was going to

00:12:09.420 get commissioned i remember that morning getting up and getting my dress uniform ready to go down and

00:12:14.600 fall fall in the formation and be commissioned along with all the other candidates and i looked i was

00:12:20.380 shaving and i looked myself in the mirror and i said you know when the day comes that you can't look

00:12:26.620 your people in the eye and say follow me it is necessary that we die when that day comes it's the day

00:12:36.420 you're not leading anymore and you should quit yeah that's powerful so it's interesting about your

00:12:41.340 career so you served in the marines in vietnam you served in berut last but then after your military

00:12:47.540 service you got started working in hollywood and what you did is you started a consulting company to

00:12:54.300 show filmmakers on how to make war movies more realistic so i'm curious what were wrong what was

00:13:00.560 wrong with hollywood war movies that you thought that there needed to be a better way well i i'll i'll

00:13:07.400 redirect your question for a moment to say that a lot of what i've accomplished in motion pictures and

00:13:14.860 television entertainment industry is because when you're ignorant you can do a lot of things people

00:13:20.040 tell you you can't do and that was that was certainly my case when when i retired um i milled around

00:13:27.840 doing several things and trying to decide what it was that i really wanted to do what what could i bring

00:13:35.000 to the table and there was all the standard stuff you know go be a security specialist or go be a cop

00:13:41.460 but i'd been shot too many times to you know want to work on the mean streets carrying a weapon and so i

00:13:48.940 i began to you know a great period of self-interest of introspection and um the the thing that just jumped

00:13:58.640 out at me was that you're a movie fan die i mean you've seen practically every military movie there

00:14:05.980 is and i think that was true at the time and the common denominator there was that they all pissed

00:14:11.080 me off or most of them pissed me off they just weren't who they weren't a representation in the

00:14:18.140 popular media which i knew has huge influence on societies movies and television have a huge influence

00:14:25.100 on societies and i said here we are being represented as soldiers sailors airmen marines coast guardsmen

00:14:31.480 in those popular media and it's wrong we we don't act that way we don't do that kind of thing and

00:14:41.460 wouldn't it be more exciting and more insightful and more educational in this vastly popular media

00:14:48.180 if we were depicted correctly warts and all and so that's when the the bulb began to glow dimly over

00:14:56.420 my head and i said you know what's what's wrong here and i began to see i began to watch credits roll

00:15:03.940 and i would see captain jimmy umptefratz u.s army retired in the end credits and he was listed as the

00:15:12.420 military technical advisor and i said well what's wrong with that guy how does he let him get away with this

00:15:17.560 stuff and so i decided to come to hollywood and as i said when you're ignorant you just do things

00:15:23.380 and i began to try to investigate i began to look around and i began to what why are we depicted so

00:15:30.800 badly why can't we get it right and what i discovered essentially was a was a what i call hubris on the part

00:15:37.920 of hollywood there was an opinion that and this was post vietnam so a lot of that shadow still hung over

00:15:45.800 public opinion what i discovered was that producers and directors and writers simply had no knowledge

00:15:53.080 very very few of them in fact you could probably count them on one hand it had any military experience

00:15:58.620 whatsoever and what they did have was kind of a negative experience because of the period they may

00:16:05.560 or may not have served so i said well there's the problem they don't understand or if they're being

00:16:12.160 told something they have absolutely no inclination to listen to it or pay attention to it that's why

00:16:21.160 they get these guys in as military advisors and then they you know pay them five hundred dollars a week

00:16:25.960 and have them sit in a chair and they wake them up when they want to know which side the ribbons go on

00:16:30.720 but they don't get into who we are how we act how we react how we relate to each other and i said well

00:16:38.600 there's the problem someone's got to teach them and i fell back put my leader mask on and i said well

00:16:45.220 the key here is training we've got to take these young actors and we've got to put them in our shoes

00:16:53.340 make them walk the mile that we've walked in our combat boots and if we can do that they'll get an

00:16:59.120 insight they'll get they'll get a close and personal look at who we are and how we act and how we relate

00:17:06.000 to each other and that can't help but improve the performances so that was my theory and i began to

00:17:12.880 try to sell it to hollywood well that was uh to to understate the case that was a an uphill battle

00:17:21.520 i mean i i talked to people and i said look i have a better way to make war movies i'm worth more to

00:17:28.380 you than telling you which uniform is right and telling you that you shouldn't carry an m16 in world

00:17:34.240 war ii i've i've got more to bring to table here i can help you train these actors and you'll get

00:17:40.900 brilliant performances and of course essentially what the attitude was was look two things the first

00:17:47.840 is we've made war movies for years and made zillions of dollars and and why should we pay you money to

00:17:53.560 change what we think works that was attitude one attitude two was look you spent most of your life in

00:18:01.960 the military so automatically by definition you can't be creative you can't understand drama you

00:18:10.360 can't understand how movies are made you can't understand these things and i knew that was false

00:18:14.840 i knew that was wrong i did understand and i you know i wasn't a great dramatist or a great writer at

00:18:19.680 the time but i knew what was right and what was wrong and i knew that human beings can correct things

00:18:25.320 and so it was it was a real fight brett and i i was frankly after about a year i was about to give

00:18:31.060 it up i was running out of money and running out of patience and an interesting thing happened i saw a

00:18:38.560 little notice i had learned by this time to read the trade papers daily variety and hollywood reporter

00:18:43.200 and that sort of thing and i saw a little notice that said that a heretofore relatively unknown writer

00:18:49.020 director by the name of oliver stone was going to do a movie about vietnam based on his own experience

00:18:56.880 as a combat infantryman in vietnam and i said look if i can get to this guy he'll understand it and i

00:19:04.020 went through a series of machinations uh talking to writers and i was in i was desperate to find a way

00:19:10.460 to get to this guy where i could get by the gatekeepers and the agents and the representatives and

00:19:16.740 the managers and all the other nonsense that surrounds celebrities and uh i was i was able to

00:19:24.220 actually get stone's home phone number and uh i that was a saturday night and i sunday morning i called

00:19:31.400 him and i pitched him i did my best two minute drill you know and had it been anybody else he probably

00:19:37.800 would have hung up and had me arrested but but stone said well that's interesting let's talk and we did

00:19:43.560 i explained what i thought was wrong with the war movies and how the performances could be improved

00:19:50.280 based on training like he and i had had as soldiers and marines and he bought it and the shortest part

00:19:59.840 of a long story is he gave me 33 actors some of whom and none of whom were were big names then but are

00:20:05.940 now he gave me johnny depp and charlie sheen and tom berringer and willem defoe forrest whitaker and a

00:20:13.700 bunch of others and i i took them into the jungles of the philippines where they lived with me for three

00:20:19.760 weeks and they humped and they fought and they sweated and they strained just like we did in vietnam

00:20:26.720 and at the end of that period when i brought them down out of the jungle they were who oliver and i were

00:20:33.500 when we were 19 in combat and we made this little movie called platoon brought it home and lo and

00:20:40.620 behold it won four academy awards including best picture and oliver was kind enough to recognize me

00:20:46.280 as having been a big part of that great film and at that point all of those people who were throwing

00:20:53.760 me out of their offices began to call and they said look we think you may have had a point there

00:20:58.900 will you come and work on this film and that film and now it's been 50 some film and television

00:21:05.080 projects since that time and and i continue to wear the mask of the leader and i continue to

00:21:12.520 improve on my method and and it has it has grown and blossomed kind of like topsy and i think i think

00:21:20.180 it will continue because i've taught a lot of people how to do this and you know i'm i'm very serious

00:21:26.200 about getting current veterans involved in it and showing them how to do it using their experience

00:21:33.300 in the creative endeavors and it seems to be i seem to be getting a little traction after 25 or 30 years

00:21:40.240 well that's really interesting when these guys go through the boot camp do like they do they does

00:21:46.520 the way they carry themselves change like they actually carry themselves like a soldier absolutely

00:21:51.200 and it's that that i pay attention to you see you can you can train practically anybody to walk and

00:22:00.200 talk and carry the weapon and wear the gear and look like he knows what he's doing but you you need to

00:22:07.180 get into his heart and into his guts and into his mind so that he understands that so that he retains

00:22:16.020 the experience and the experience changes him and it really does i mean one of the one of the most

00:22:22.600 rewarding things in the world to me is after a certain period of time in the training i see these

00:22:29.340 changes once again i'm raising other people's children and i see them change and i see them carry

00:22:37.260 themselves differently most importantly i see them relate to each other differently they have learned

00:22:43.620 through that experience that despite their their previous opinion the sun does not rise and set on

00:22:50.340 their ass i mean the world is not all about them and what swirls around them they learn that they're

00:22:57.200 part of a team and that they must rely on the guy next to them and the guy next to them must be able

00:23:03.020 to rely on them and that's a profound change especially in young actors it sounds like you're teaching

00:23:09.720 these guys how to put on masks as well in order to to do the role i mean it's the same thing you're

00:23:14.580 doing with soldiers you're doing to these actors yes i think i think that's exactly right and that was

00:23:19.860 the success of my method there was up until i started it uh there was an opinion that well look it's acting

00:23:28.040 we don't need all that in-depth understanding well i knew that was false that was nonsense that was bs

00:23:35.220 they do need that understanding in order to bring that sort of thing to their performance on screen

00:23:43.480 and it turned out i was correct and they weren't which is which is a gratifying thing at this point

00:23:49.140 besides platoon what other films have you consulted on oh uh so many of them it it would it would take

00:23:56.060 all of our time to talk about it but i but for instance born on the 4th of july band of brothers

00:24:02.300 the pacific saving private ryan and and many of them that aren't that high profile but uh but i do

00:24:09.920 them regularly right now the classics you know the new classics i'm curious are there any pre dale die

00:24:15.840 war movies that you think are actually good yeah sure i mean i i love the the little efforts that were

00:24:22.760 that were made by guys who who actually were veterans i love sam fuller's steel helmet a little

00:24:29.760 two hundred and fifty thousand dollar korean war movie that's a that's a tour de force about

00:24:35.780 leadership and and small unit integrity i love the bridges of toko ri i think they got that one right

00:24:44.140 and there there are a bunch of them but that said there are fewer in the old method than there are now

00:24:51.920 in the new method right well and besides consulting you've actually you know consulting behind the camera

00:24:56.600 you've actually starred in movies as well so what movies can we find dale die in well you uh a bunch

00:25:03.080 of them i guess it's it's interesting and it was oliver stone to blame for all of this he saw me

00:25:09.340 training and he said you know you need to play the company commander in platoon captain harris

00:25:15.680 and i said really and he says i don't know anything about acting and he said you're a natural

00:25:22.080 just be you and i did and and the interesting thing about it was that critics actually kind of

00:25:31.020 singled me out and said whoever that guy is uh he was really convincing and that kind of led to

00:25:37.860 other parts and uh you know i've i've been in oh it's got to be 20 or 30 films i'm usually the guy

00:25:44.940 who shows up and explains the jeopardy in military terms and then goes away and then in act three i come

00:25:51.500 and congratulate everybody on how well they did or pin a few medals you can find me in saving private

00:25:57.060 ryan and you can find me as colonel sink in uh band of brothers and a bunch of performances one of my

00:26:05.960 i loved i love to play real people so that i can do the research and i can dig in on the character

00:26:11.940 and that's what i did with colonel sink the ceo of the 506 parachute infantry regiment in in band of

00:26:17.540 brothers and i i loved playing general leonard wood to tom berringer's teddy roosevelt in uh the

00:26:25.720 rough riders uh which was a tnt made for made for television tnt movie and i don't know i i don't

00:26:31.880 want to sit here and and read my resume right right no it's impressive it's it's amazing i think it's a

00:26:38.060 good example of not pigeonholing yourself and looking at the experience you have in and seeing the

00:26:44.620 different places you can go with it well i have a i have a real low tolerance for boredom and i've

00:26:50.380 always been that way if i i'm always wanting to do something or or i'll see something that sparks my

00:26:57.160 interest and i say you know maybe i could do that and i'll jump over and try that acting was that way

00:27:02.420 and and worked out terrifically but writing i've always been a storyteller and and i love telling

00:27:09.620 stories i love entertaining and i decided you know i'm pretty facile with the english language

00:27:15.940 maybe i should write this stuff down and i did and i think this point i've published about 13 novels

00:27:23.060 12 or 13 of them and they've they've gotten great interest they're all military books of course i write

00:27:29.160 what i know but they they have been really popular they've they've jumped out i they were so popular in

00:27:35.460 fact that what i did was i started my company is called warriors incorporated and so i branched

00:27:42.200 an effort off and we now have what's called warriors publishing group and we've got i don't know 24 or 25

00:27:49.380 titles out there very very high profile titles we've we're publishing john del vecchio's 13th valley

00:27:56.400 and in a number of really great books and that's that's worked out fine i'm now branched off into

00:28:03.220 writing films and directing them this year i hope to start my first my first feature directorial

00:28:09.380 effort in a world war ii film called no better place to die which essentially will be the airborne

00:28:15.220 version of saving private ryan where ryan focused on the the beach assaults the surface assaults

00:28:21.300 my story focuses on the airborne assault the people who jumped in before the beaches

00:28:25.780 and our beach assaults started and it's it's going great tom hanks is executive producing it for me

00:28:32.280 and and so i think we're going to shoot that film this summer so uh who knows who knows what's right

00:28:39.340 i have no idea it sounds great and so you're going to do the the military training so you're like how

00:28:44.000 does that go so it's three weeks a month how long do you usually have those guys it it all depends on

00:28:48.700 how much the the producers of the film will give me what i ask for is a minimum of two weeks

00:28:54.140 because it the method really captain die's method if you will is full immersion and i have to do

00:29:02.640 in two weeks what normally takes 10 weeks or 12 weeks in basic training so i have to eliminate a lot

00:29:11.080 of things and i have to focus hard on a few other things and we have to work 24 hours around the clock

00:29:15.820 it's it's very hard very intense very difficult but i have done it in as short as a week the the

00:29:23.440 longer they're willing to give me uh in what they they euphemistically term rehearsal time the longer

00:29:31.280 they're willing to give me the better the result and that's what i usually say i said look you can

00:29:36.040 you can say i've got three days and i'll do what i can but if you really want this to sing if you

00:29:42.200 really want these guys to come out of there knowing the characters and able to portray them

00:29:46.500 beautifully you need to give me more time and and it's always a negotiation and always an argument

00:29:51.900 do you shave their heads like when they come in like boot camp it depends uh if that's required

00:29:57.200 yes absolutely i do and that's always a a source of much uh crying and pissing and moaning but if if it's

00:30:06.940 required then absolutely i do if it's not required i make them get that standard haircut that for the

00:30:14.580 day and the period and the time and that's where we go so yeah it sounds like you know the way the

00:30:20.420 way you become something is you have to act it out like you have to do it there's all this talk about

00:30:24.880 being inauthentic right but sometimes that's what you have to do to become that thing you want to be

00:30:29.420 sometimes you have to act out and then eventually by acting it out you become what you want to be

00:30:33.540 look it's that's that's right brett and and it's you know it's not brain surgery if i can sit and

00:30:42.580 talk to you all day long about what a cookie tastes like and i can be the world's greatest

00:30:48.940 descriptor and storyteller about that cookie and you're going to sit there and you're going to say

00:30:55.000 okay i i understand all about that cookie but nothing nothing is going to let you relate

00:31:03.080 what that cookie is about until you've bitten into it and that's the theory that's the theory

00:31:09.720 well dale this has been a great conversation but where can people go to learn more about your work

00:31:13.440 well i'm i'm all over the internet despite the fact that i don't want to be i am you can look up

00:31:20.600 warriors incorporated on the internet you can look up no better place to die which is the name of my new

00:31:25.640 film it's all over facebook you can read my books they're all available on amazon and look up warriors

00:31:33.580 incorporated we've got a terrific website that'll tell you who we are what we are and what we're

00:31:37.880 trying to do and that that's that's very simple brett there's one agenda i want to through my efforts

00:31:44.940 in the popular media all of the popular media i want to shine some long overdue light

00:31:53.280 on the men and women who've worn our military uniform and whose service and sacrifice so much

00:32:00.860 for us every day that's a great mission dale die thank you so much for your time it's been a pleasure

00:32:05.720 brett my pleasure thanks very much we'll do this again when we can my guest today was dale die he's

00:32:10.800 the owner of warriors inc you can find more information about his work at dale die.com also check

00:32:15.380 out our show notes at aom.is slash dale die that's d-y-e where you can find links to resources

00:32:19.860 we can delve deeper into this topic well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness

00:32:35.800 podcast for more manly tips and advice make sure to check out the art of manliness website at

00:32:39.160 artofmanliness.com if you enjoy the podcast i appreciate if you take one minute here's view

00:32:42.780 on itunes or stitcher helps out a lot if you've done that already thank you please share the show

00:32:46.560 with somebody you think they'd get something out of it as always thank you for your continued support

00:32:50.020 until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay manly

The Art of Manliness - February 27, 2018

#383： The Virtues of the Masks of Masculinity

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