#391： Micronutrients, Genetics, and Preventing Age-Related Diseases
Episode Stats
Summary
Dr. Rhonda Patrick has spent her career researching the ill effects of micronutrient deficiencies and what you can do to optimize them. On this episode of the Art of Manliness podcast, Dr. Patrick joins me via Skype to talk about her research and how you can optimize your nutrition.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. Now when you think
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about diet and nutrition, you probably think about carbs, proteins, and fats. These are
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macronutrients and they play a huge role in athletic performance and whether you gain or lose weight.
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But food is also full of micronutrients that are vital to your health and wellbeing. Unfortunately,
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most modern people overlook micronutrients and consequently are deficient in them. My guest
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today has spent her career researching the ill effects of micronutrient deficiencies and what
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you can do to optimize them. Her name is Dr. Rhonda Patrick and she's a biomedical scientist.
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And today on the show, Rhonda and I discuss micronutrients, what they are, what they do,
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and why we're not getting enough of them. We then dig into her research into nutritional genomics or
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how genetics affects how your body processes nutrition. We end our conversation discussing how
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stressing yourself with cold exposure, heat exposure, and fasting can boost your health.
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After the show's over, check out the show notes at aom.is slash optimize. And Dr. Patrick joins me
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now via Skype. Dr. Rhonda Patrick, welcome to the show. Thank you. So tell us a bit about
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your background and your area of focus when it comes to health, diet, nutrition, genetics, et cetera.
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So I have a PhD in biomedical science. I have done research on aging. I've done research on metabolism,
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cancer metabolism, and I've done research on micronutrients, which are about 30 to 40 essential
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vitamins, minerals that we must get from our diet because they're essential for life and how
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micronutrients are really important for health and for preventing certain biomarkers for age-related
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diseases. So I've kind of done a broad range of research, everything from metabolism to cancer
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And you've also tapped into looking in genetics as well, how genetics interacts with all these
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Right. The field's sort of called nutrigenomics. And that area of research of mine has not been
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something I've actually published on, but is an interest that I've sort of just researched because
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I'm very interested in that field for selfish reasons and just because it's a fascinating field how
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people respond differently to different types of diets, to different macronutrients and micronutrients
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So let's talk about micronutrients. We've had guest nutritionists on the show just to discuss
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macronutrients, carbs, fats, proteins. And your focus, as you said, is micronutrient deficiencies
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and their roles in age-related diseases. So you mentioned micronutrients. There's 30 of them.
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What are they and what are some of the big ones that play a big role in our health and possibly
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disease prevention? Well, you know, they're 30 to 40, somewhere around there. And they are
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essential vitamins and minerals, you know, like magnesium, vitamin C, vitamin K, things like that.
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We have to get them from our diet because without them you die. Recommended daily allowances have
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been set for these vitamins and minerals to ensure that we get adequate amounts of them.
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But the way the RDA is set is that studies are done in animals where animals are made deficient
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of a certain micronutrient. So for example, a B vitamin. And once the deficiency level,
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you know, causes an animal to die, the RDA is set a couple of standard deviations above that.
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So essentially it's just the RDAs are just to sort of maintain, you know, normal health just to make
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sure that, you know, people don't have such a deficiency that they get sick and die. So that's
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kind of, you know, important to understand because we don't really know what levels are needed to
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prevent and stave off, for example, diseases of aging. But with that said, there's a variety of
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micronutrients that are really important for disease prevention. For example, magnesium. Magnesium
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is an important mineral. It's actually found at the center of a chlorophyll molecule. And chlorophyll is
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what give plants their green color. So magnesium is found in plants, you know, leafy green plants.
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And it's a cofactor for enzymes, which means basically enzymes in your body are what are
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running your metabolism. They're running a variety of processes. And these enzymes require certain
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cofactors, which are, you know, vitamins and minerals to make sure they run, you know, properly.
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And so magnesium is required for cofactor that repairs damage to DNA. And DNA damage actually is
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a precursor to mutations that can lead to cancer, to, you know, mutations that just accelerate the
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aging process in general. So when you don't get enough magnesium, you start to get more and more
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DNA damage. And as decades sort of pass on, you eventually can acquire more and more mutations
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that lead to cancer. So that's just, you know, one example. Folate's another one. Folate's also
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found in dark leafy green vegetables. And folate's required every time you're going to make a new cell,
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you have to make new DNA. Well, you need folate to make a precursor to make new DNA. So every time
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you're going to make a new cell in your liver or your kidney or your heart or your brain, you need
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folate. And it's been shown actually that if you have deficiency in folate, it can be similar to
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actually standing underneath ionizing radiation in that it damages your DNA because you don't have
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that precursor that you need to make it. So your body kind of like does this weird thing where it
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incorporates something else that's not supposed to be there and it causes damage. So that's another
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example. You know, there's other examples. Omega-3 fatty acids are really important. You know, studies
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have shown that people with the highest omega-3 fatty acid intake have like a 9% reduced all-cause
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mortality, which means they're 9% less likely to die early from cardiovascular disease or cancer or
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Alzheimer's disease or Parkinson's disease. So those are some examples of important micronutrients for
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health. Vitamin D is also another one. But vitamin D is not something that's typically consumed from
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diet. It's actually made from UVB radiation when the sun hits our skin. But the problem is a lot of
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people now are wearing sunscreens, which blocks UVB radiation, which means you don't make vitamin D
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when you're in the sun. Also, just being indoors a lot, you know, people are in their offices and the
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cubicles, their other, you know, computer screens, spend less time outside. So vitamin D deficiency has
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become a little more common than it was, you know, a few decades ago when people spent a lot more time
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outside. Vitamin D is extremely important for a lot of processes. In fact, about 5% of the human
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genome, you know, is regulated by vitamin D, which actually gets converted into a steroid hormone. So
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it's not just a vitamin. It actually gets converted into a hormone inside the body. So that's another
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example of a really important micronutrient. So you're talking about deficiencies. Is
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micronutrient deficiency a problem in our modern age or are certain segments of the population more
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susceptible to micronutrient deficiencies? Because like most food is like, you know, fortified and
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things like that or most processed foods. Right. Yeah. So actually, I mentioned the RDAs and
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there's a lot of nutritional health and examination surveys that have been done that have found,
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for example, in the United States, at least about 70% of the population does not have adequate levels
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of vitamin D. About 60% of the U.S. population does not have adequate levels of vitamin E. Vitamin
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E is found in foods like nuts, avocados, olives, olive oil. About 45% of the U.S. population has
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inadequate levels of magnesium. Again, magnesium is in dark leafy greens. 35% of the population has
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inadequate levels of vitamin K. Vitamin K is also found in dark leafy greens. Vitamin A,
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so 34% of the U.S. population does not have adequate levels of vitamin A. So you get the point.
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There are these, you know, inadequacies, which are not quite deficiency. I mean, when you get to real
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deficiency, you can start to have acute health problems crop up. But inadequacy still means you're
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not getting an adequate level of the vitamin or the mineral. So we do know that that is the case
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in the United States, which really means people are not eating enough of their leafy greens or not
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eating enough of their, you know, of the healthy foods, healthy nuts and avocados and things like
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that. We do know that people that are overweight and obese tend to be the most deficient, have the
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most micronutrient inadequacies because those people that are obese and overweight also tend to eat a diet
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that is micronutrient poor and more rich in like refined carbohydrates and refined sugars and
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processed foods and things that may have a lot of calories, may have a lot of sugar and fat, but
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don't necessarily have a lot of micronutrients. I was going to say, can you just take a
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multivitamin to make up the deficiency or is that not adequate enough?
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You know, so taking a multivitamin, you know, may help sort of serve as like an insurance to make
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sure that you're, you know, at least, it certainly has been shown in studies that people that are
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deficient that take a multivitamin, they can bring their levels up to a more adequate level in some
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cases, or at least better than they were. But of course, it's best if you can eat a varied diet,
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you know, a diet that's, you know, rich in a variety of different vegetables and fruits,
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because those are, you know, very good sources of micronutrients. And also fish is a great source of
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omega-3 fatty acids. But, you know, a multivitamin, I don't know if it would solve the
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problem, but it certainly does seem to help, at least according to some studies that have been
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done. So we're talking a lot about, you know, we need adequate micronutrient consumption to
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stave off certain diseases. But like, you know, we're living in an age where everyone wants to
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optimize, like optimize everything. So like, let's say someone like is on top of their micronutrient
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game, they're getting out in the sun, they're taking magnesium, they're drinking green smoothies,
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whatever, every day. Like, is that going to like provide any benefit? Like, is there such thing
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as too much of a good thing? Or is it sort of diminishing returns as you consume more micronutrients?
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Well, it definitely depends on the micronutrient we're talking about. If you're talking about too
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much of a good thing, you know, some of the fat soluble vitamins like vitamin D, vitamin A,
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you know, you can get too much of those. And that's certainly something, you know, to be aware
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of them, you don't want to mega dose or overdose on some of these vitamins like vitamin D or vitamin
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A. But, you know, the question is, how much of these micronutrients do we need to stave off age
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related diseases? And as I mentioned, you know, the way these RDAs are set, they're set on preventing,
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you know, animals from dying, and going a couple standard deviations above that and saying, okay,
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well, that's how much we need to make sure humans aren't going to like get sick and die from
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a deficiency in a certain micronutrient. But what we don't know, you know, is, well,
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how much of these micronutrients like magnesium are needed to prevent DNA damage? You know,
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so a lot of metabolic pathways require micronutrients, but some of these metabolic
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pathways are essential for like short-term survival. So, for example, I've already mentioned
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magnesium. You know, magnesium is required to make and utilize energy. And when that means without
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magnesium, you can't make energy. And essentially, if you can't make energy, you're eventually going
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to die. So that's a really important metabolic process that requires magnesium. But magnesium is
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also required to repair DNA damage. Well, DNA damage isn't going to have any effect on your short-term
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health. I mean, you can acquire a lot of DNA damage, and it's not going to matter until about 30,
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40, 50 years later when you start to then get mutations that can lead to cancer.
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So my former postdoctoral mentor, Dr. Bruce Ames, actually proposed a theory, which he calls
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triage theory, where those metabolic processes that are required for short-term survival will
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get their share of the micronutrient first because nature wants you to survive long enough to reproduce
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and pass on your genes, whereas the processes that are more concerned with long-term maintenance,
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process involved in, you know, mitigating aging in the long term, they ultimately get neglected.
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So it's kind of like a strategic rationing of micronutrients. And it's sort of helpful to
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think about how the body may deal with micronutrient inadequacies. And he's actually
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published a couple of theoretical studies backing, you know, this idea. But, you know, the reality is
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that we don't really, really know. We don't have enough empirical evidence to say the RDAs are enough
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to prevent aging. They're enough to prevent DNA damage or prevent calcification of the arteries
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or, you know, to prevent this type of insidious damage that leads to age-related diseases.
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So, you know, I think that the best thing someone can do is at least make sure they're trying to,
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for sure, meet the RDAs, which, as I mentioned, a large proportion of the U.S. population's not even
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doing that. But in addition to that, you know, making sure you're getting a nice broad spectrum
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of, you know, whole foods, you know, a variety of colors of vegetables and a variety of fruits
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and healthy meats and things like that are, I think, are probably your best bet.
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Right. So you don't have to do anything crazy. I mean, that's just so funny about health advice.
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It always comes like, eat good food, sleep well, and exercise. And like, that's all you have to do.
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I mean, it's kind of the bare minimum and you'll be okay. Yeah, it's pretty much, I mean, that's
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like the safe thing that we can do right now, right? I mean, until we have, you know, we have
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more evidence as to what, you know, what else can we do? Right. So you mentioned earlier, you do
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genomics. Is that genomics, is that the right? Yeah, nutrigenomics. Nutri-genomics. All right. So
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this is sort of your passion project. And you've got tools on your website, FoundMyFitness,
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where people can, you know, upload their DNA basically. And you can sort of see which,
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how your body might respond to different micronutrients. So what role do genetics play
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in how our body uses both micronutrients, but even macronutrients?
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It plays a really important role. So, you know, the whole like idea behind nutrigenomics,
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which is this interaction between genes and diet is that, you know, throughout human history,
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you know, our diet has been really dictated by where we lived. So according to geography. So
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when you live in a certain part of the pre-industrialized world, you only had certain
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foods that were available to you. And so the foods, you know, that were available to you
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had very different composition, different micronutrients, because the soils are different.
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So different plants are taking up different micronutrients differently. Also, you know,
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different macronutrients. You know, some people had access to more animal products. Some people had
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less access to animal products. So within a given region, it's reasonable that to expect that over
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time, over multiple generations, people began to adapt to tolerate very different nutrient
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thresholds, both micronutrients and also macronutrients. I mean, so that's sort of the theory
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behind the nutrigenomics. But to get, you know, to your question, you know, specifically what role does
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it play in, for example, the metabolism of micronutrients or macronutrients? We know that
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there's a variety of variations in genes that regulate both of these things. So for example,
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one of the probably most well-established findings in this area is how your body responds to saturated
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fat and in turn, how that affects your cholesterol levels. So there's a gene called APOE that's very
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important for recycling cholesterol. And about 25% of the population has a version of it called
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APOE4 that can predispose them to very, very high LDL cholesterol levels. So, you know, people with
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this version of it have a really high risk for heart disease and they also have a really high risk for
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Alzheimer's disease. So that's probably one of the best established, you know, genes that regulates
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cholesterol levels. So I actually became interested in this field because I found out that I had one
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version of the APOE4. And so I had to really tailor my, my saturated fat intake because saturated fat,
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which is found in foods like dairy products, butter, very fat, fatty cutting bits of cuts of meat,
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like pork. And so I found out I had one of one of those copies and I had to, I had to sort of tailor
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my diet to lower the amount of saturated fat I was taking in. And that really did change my LDL
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levels. Another really well-established nutrigenomic finding in this area is the omega-3. There's a,
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there's three different versions of omega-3. One of them is the plant version and the plant version
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called alpha-linolytic acid can be converted into icosapentaenoic acid, which is usually found in,
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you know, fish and which then can be converted into the other form, docahexanenoic acid, DHA,
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which is also found in fish. Well, it turns out that the gene that converts alpha-linolytic,
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also called ALA into EPA is very, there's variations in it. So some people do it very poorly. For example,
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they can do it 30% less efficiently. So, so, so, so some people, for example, that are vegetarians,
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it's actually really important for vegetarians because vegetarians are relying solely on their
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source of omega-3 from plants, which are flax seeds, chia seeds, microalgae oil. Those are great
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sources of omega-3, but these, you know, people that are not converting it very well into EPA and DHA
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have to really know that because then they really can't rely on flax seed or chia seed. They have to
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rely more on microalgae oil because the microalgae oil already has it in the form of DHA. So that's
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another one. Vitamin D is another one that's also regulated. Some people don't convert vitamin D3
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into the steroid hormone very well, the active form of vitamin D. And those people actually,
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if they're supplementing, may have to take an even a higher dose than other people that don't have that
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variation would. So I think those are some of the probably best established findings in that area.
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Yeah. No, I have the vitamin D thing. Like I don't convert it as well.
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Ah. Have you had your vitamin D levels measured?
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No. So I just did. I haven't gotten the results yet from my doctor. My mom has done that,
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gotten the vitamin D, and she's been found deficient even though she was taking a vitamin D
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supplement. So she actually had to increase her vitamin D. So I'm imagining that there is an issue
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there of genetics. Yeah. I've had a few friends that have also had that issue where they were taking
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vitamin D supplements in even quite large doses. And still, that sort of wasn't moving the needle
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in terms of raising their blood levels of vitamin D. By the way, really adequate levels of vitamin D
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are considered to be between 40 and 60 nanograms per milliliter because that's associated with
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the lowest all-cause mortality within like, there's like 33 different studies that have been
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analyzed that have found that. So typically, when people take a vitamin D supplement, generally speaking,
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if you don't have the variation that we were talking about, generally, 1,000 IUs of vitamin D
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will raise blood levels by five nanograms per milliliter. Now, people with that certain
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variation, that's not the case, and they actually may have to take more. But the only way to know
00:21:36.640
that is to get a blood test and also look at your genes as well. So doing both is really important.
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yourmechanic.com slash manliness. And now back to the show.
00:23:46.260
Yeah. And I also, I mean, I used your tool and I also found that I think I have, I have
00:23:50.020
the saturated fat thing where it increases LDL. So I had to like watch out for saturated fat
00:23:55.560
and that like consuming high levels of fat will make me obese. Like, so, which was interesting
00:24:00.960
because, you know, everyone talks about, I've tried the, you know, paleo or no carb diet and
00:24:06.400
I always got fat and tired doing it. And it was frustrating. It was like, well, look, all these guys
00:24:11.520
online, they're just shredding body fat and I'm just tired and fat.
00:24:16.100
Yeah. That's interesting. You probably had, so there's a variety of different genes that regulate
00:24:20.200
the way your body metabolizes saturated fat. And, you know, FTO is one gene. Another one is the PPAR
00:24:28.180
alpha and gamma. And for people that have a certain variation of that gene, if they have a high
00:24:34.240
saturated fat and low polyunsaturated fat and monounsaturated fat intake, they can have increased
00:24:43.000
obesity risk. They can have increased LDL levels, increased triglycerides, and even increased
00:24:48.940
insulin problems with insulin and glucose, blood glucose levels. So there was a study that was published
00:24:54.560
a couple of years ago that was a really well done study in this field, nutrigenomics, that came out
00:24:59.500
of the Weissman Institute in Israel. And the study basically took 800 people and put continuous
00:25:04.980
glucose monitors on them, which measure blood glucose levels every five minutes. And they gave
00:25:10.520
these people then a variety of different diets. So they gave them either a high fat diet or a high
00:25:16.480
carbohydrate diet, like that were more vegetable kind of carbohydrates and then a high refined
00:25:21.980
carbohydrate diet. And what the study found was that people had various responses in terms of
00:25:27.580
their high blood glucose, depending on their genetics and also their gut microbiome composition.
00:25:32.940
But, you know, so it wasn't like some people were given the fat and their blood glucose levels shot up,
00:25:37.880
even though, you know, fat is very low on the glycemic index because it doesn't have, you know, glucose.
00:25:43.200
You'd think, well, your blood glucose levels shouldn't rise. Well, you know, some people,
00:25:49.060
their blood glucose levels rose really high when they ate dietary fat. And that's because they had
00:25:54.400
certain variations in genes that regulate the way their body processes fat. So that does make a
00:25:59.620
difference. You know, I think it is really important to keep in mind anytime anyone's doing any type of
00:26:04.820
experimental diet, they should always, you know, measure something, you know, before you start the
00:26:10.100
diet, get a lipid panel. So look at your LDL, your HDL, your triglycerides, also measure blood glucose
00:26:16.300
levels before you start the diet and then after you start it so that you can see whether or not
00:26:20.580
this diet's changing your various biomarkers of health in a good or bad way. And if you see things
00:26:26.980
are going in a bad direction, you can then also do, you know, look at your genetics to sort of
00:26:32.880
understand why possibly. So besides things on diet and nutrition, you've also done some research and
00:26:38.920
writing on things that are called hormetic, is that the right word? Hormetic stressors?
00:26:42.960
Uh-huh. So what are hormetic stressors? Well, the concept of hormesis refers to exposing the body
00:26:50.880
to small amounts of stress, which then triggers cellular responses in the body that exceed what
00:26:58.040
is actually needed to compensate for that little bit of stress that you exposed your body to.
00:27:02.880
So there's actually a net positive effect, meaning so some of the cellular pathways that get activated
00:27:09.100
are anti-inflammatory pathways, antioxidant pathways, genes that are important for clearing away damaged
00:27:15.060
cells, genes that activate stem cells. So hormetic stressor is often referred to like as a good type
00:27:22.080
of stress and it can include activities like exercise, heat stress, for example, using a sauna or a hot bath
00:27:29.380
or a steam shower, cold stress. So using like a cold shower or even an ice bath. And even polyphenols found
00:27:36.660
in a variety of plants are referred to as hormetic stressors.
00:27:40.740
Well, let's talk about the heat stress. So I've read some of the things you've put out there about
00:27:45.400
that. So like what are the benefits of exposing yourself to heat via a sauna or a steam bath or a
00:27:50.260
hot bath? Well, a lot of the benefits from the sauna are based off of research from Dr. Yari Laukonen,
00:27:57.180
who is out of Finland and has done some studies on a large number of participants, about 2,000 men
00:28:03.160
that have used the sauna either two to three times a week or four to seven times a week or just one
00:28:09.580
time a week. And what he's found and published multiple studies on is that men that use the sauna
00:28:14.660
two to three times a week have a 27% lower cardiovascular disease risk, 24% lower all-cause
00:28:21.160
mortality risk, 20% lower Alzheimer's disease risk compared to men that only use the sauna one time a
00:28:27.100
week. But when you go up to four to seven times a week, it's even more robust. So for example,
00:28:31.460
those men have a 50% lower cardiovascular disease risk, a 40% lower all-cause mortality
00:28:37.640
and a 66% lower risk for dementia and Alzheimer's disease compared to men that only use it one time
00:28:44.080
a week. So there's a variety of different mechanisms that also been looked at. So for example,
00:28:49.760
Yari has looked at how heat changes the blood vessels and how basically your blood vessels become
00:28:56.720
more pliable and respond better. It increases plasma flow and basically takes a lot of workload off
00:29:04.780
your heart. So basically every time your heart beats to pump blood throughout the body to make
00:29:09.340
sure blood gets to your various organs, including your brain, it has to do less work. So it kind of
00:29:15.220
lowers what's called cardiovascular strain. There's also a lot of studies looking at what are called heat
00:29:20.820
shock proteins, which are activated when your body is exposed to heat. And heat shock proteins have
00:29:26.600
been shown to prevent proteins from forming aggregates and plaques in your arteries and also
00:29:31.940
in your brain, which lead to Alzheimer's disease. So a variety of studies have been done on that and
00:29:37.560
have shown that people that sit in the sauna that is at least 163 degrees Fahrenheit for about 30 minutes,
00:29:44.820
they can activate their heat shock proteins by about 50%. And this lasts for about two days without
00:29:50.740
having to get back in the heat stress. But if you think about it, exercise also is a form of heat
00:29:55.820
stress. You know, when you do exercise, you're elevating your core body temperature. So in a lot of
00:30:00.120
ways, you know, doing something like a sauna or a steam shower or sitting in a hot bath, you know,
00:30:05.680
it elevates your heart rate, you know, to somewhat moderate intensity exercise level. So a lot of the
00:30:13.160
cardiovascular exercise benefits can be had from doing something like sitting in the sauna for 20
00:30:20.700
minutes or so. So that's work that, like I said, a lot of it's coming out of Finland. Interestingly,
00:30:27.020
because we've been talking about genes, there are variations in genes that actually increase the
00:30:33.200
activation of heat shock proteins in people. And very interestingly, people with these certain
00:30:37.860
variations are more likely to live to be 100. Interesting. Well, let's talk about the opposite,
00:30:43.460
cold exposure. So we've had guests on, Scott Carney, he wrote a book about Wim Hof, sort of cold
00:30:50.160
exposure. But what role, I mean, we know the benefits, there's a lot of them, but what role do
00:30:55.440
genetics play in whether you get those benefits from cold exposure? Well, it depends on the benefits.
00:31:01.840
So, you know, I would say the two main benefits or the most robust, I think I would say most profound
00:31:09.640
physiological responses to cold exposure is one, the robust release of norepinephrine from a part of
00:31:17.060
your brain called the locus coeruleus region. And norepinephrine is really important for focus and
00:31:22.680
attention, vigilance, you know, it also improves mood. So that's one robust, I would say, physiological
00:31:29.320
response to cold. In fact, even people that immerse themselves in 40 degree Fahrenheit cold
00:31:34.640
water for just 20 seconds could increase their norepinephrine by two to threefold. So 200 to 300%
00:31:40.280
over their baseline, which is pretty, pretty good. The other response to cold is the increase in
00:31:47.520
mitochondrial biogenesis, which is basically means you're growing and generating new mitochondria,
00:31:53.440
which are the powerhouse, you know, energy producing powerhouses of the cell. And so this
00:31:59.700
has been shown to happen in adipose tissue and also in muscle tissue. And so this is a really great
00:32:05.500
thing because essentially what's happening is you're, you're replacing, you know, old damaged
00:32:09.700
mitochondria with new healthy young mitochondria. And also when you're making energy, you're releasing
00:32:16.880
heat as a byproduct. So it's actually part of the way your body stays warm. So it's part of the
00:32:23.040
reason why you actually do make more mitochondria when you're exposing yourself to the cold.
00:32:27.740
So genetics does affect one of the processes of ramping up your energy metabolism through a
00:32:34.740
process of just basically taking your mitochondria and uncoupling them. And there's a gene that does
00:32:39.980
this called UCP1. And there's different variations in this gene. And some people have a variation where
00:32:45.020
they do it really well. And so they can actually tolerate cold even better than people that don't have
00:32:50.700
that variation of it because they're able to ramp up their metabolism even more, generate more heat
00:32:56.340
to stay warm. And so they can stay in colder temperatures for longer. And they also have the
00:33:00.960
benefit of burning more fat when they're in the cold. So those, those people are kind of lucky in
00:33:04.940
that regard. Right. Is this the, the, like the brown fat, white fat thing? Yeah, it is exactly. So
00:33:10.260
that's the reason why it's called brown fat is because the, when you, when you make more mitochondria,
00:33:16.300
so I refer to this, it's called mitochondrial biogenesis. And you look at a fat droplet under
00:33:22.440
a microscope, the more mitochondria they have, they look darker in color. And that's why it's
00:33:27.120
often referred to as brown fat. It's essentially just because you have more mitochondria in the fat
00:33:32.320
tissue, in the adipose tissue. That's why, that's why it's called brown fat. Yeah. Using the tool,
00:33:37.360
I found out that I don't like, I don't make brown fat or like whatever. That doesn't happen to me.
00:33:42.060
Like I don't, I won't lose weight. If I take cold showers, I won't lose fat. So you don't do that as
00:33:46.640
well. I don't do it as well. Right. I don't do it as well, but I still do. Cause I mean, it feels
00:33:50.600
good. I mean, that's why I like to do it. Yeah, I actually do. I like taking a cold shower before
00:33:57.080
like a big event or if I'm going to give a talk or something that sort of usually gives me a little
00:34:01.740
bit of anxiety. I'll take a really cold shower for as long as I can. And I really find that it helps,
00:34:07.760
helps lower my anxiety and, and, uh, helps me focus and just like, you know, stay focused for
00:34:13.400
longer and feel good. So, you know, I, I, I like the cold showers. Definitely. I'm a big sauna fan,
00:34:18.700
but I really do like the cold showers. So, uh, fasting, is that a hormetic stressor as well?
00:34:23.360
Fasting is also, yeah. Fasting is another hormetic stressor. In fact, a lot of, a lot of the,
00:34:29.380
the benefits of like more prolonged fast, which are longer fast, you know, three, three to four days,
00:34:34.500
three to five days in humans. A lot of that research has been done by Dr. Walter Longa at USC
00:34:39.940
and he has shown, he's done studies in both animals and humans. And he has shown in, in animal
00:34:45.980
studies that basically a prolonged fast causes whole organs to shrink during the fast and then
00:34:53.520
literally regrow after the fast, which is quite phenomenal. If you think about it, like your liver
00:34:59.680
just shrinking and also it happens other organs as well. And even, even parts of the brain.
00:35:05.160
So he's showing this, you know, these organs are shrinking and regrowing. And what he's found
00:35:09.220
is that what ends up happening is that the fasting is a stress that causes any cells that are damaged
00:35:17.120
that already have, you know, that are not healthy cells. They're more damaged. Those cells die by a
00:35:22.940
process called apoptosis. And, and then this happens during the fast because this, the fast is such a
00:35:29.160
strong stress. It, you know, it causes those damaged cells to die, but the non-damaged cells,
00:35:34.620
the cells that are healthier, it increases all these stress response pathways in them. So they
00:35:39.540
make more antioxidants, more anti-inflammatory molecules. They just become more robust and
00:35:43.820
stronger. And the damaged cells that die, what ends up happening is it causes stem cells to become
00:35:49.440
activated. And during the refeeding phase, so after you're done fasting and you start to, you know,
00:35:54.820
eat again, the stem cells start to make new cells to replenish whatever cells were lost.
00:36:01.400
So that's where the shrinking and then regrowing of organs comes from. It also, you know, you have
00:36:06.500
better metabolism and things like that. But I find the, the clearing away of damaged cells and then
00:36:12.100
essentially replenishing them with, you know, healthy new cells. I find that to be a very interesting,
00:36:19.060
you know, area of research. And also it has lots and lots of implications for many diseases,
00:36:24.020
as well as just aging in general. Yeah. I think I've seen studies where
00:36:28.040
reduced calories can increase longevity in mice, at least. They've seen that.
00:36:33.700
Right. And this is sort of another, this is sort of another way of doing, instead of having a
00:36:37.960
reduced calories all the time, you just kind of do this, you know, three or four day fast,
00:36:42.920
you know, every so often, depending, you know, depending on what your health status is. You know,
00:36:47.600
some people that are really unhealthy and obese may have to do that more often and other,
00:36:52.280
others that are not. So, you know, that are already healthy, maybe doing it once a quarter
00:36:56.360
or something like that may be a nice way to just sort of clear away all the damaged cells. And
00:37:00.060
it's kind of like taking out the garbage, you know, getting rid of the bad stuff and replenishing it
00:37:04.060
with new healthy cells. So does the fast have to be three to four days to get the benefits? I mean,
00:37:08.680
is there a benefit for like fasting 16 hours or 24 hours?
00:37:12.700
Well, in terms of the stem cell activation, clearing away the damaged cells, Walter has shown
00:37:17.020
that the prolonged fast. So the three, four or five days is important, but he also has what's
00:37:22.440
called a fasting mimicking diet, which is a five day diet and it's a low calorie and it has a certain
00:37:28.960
macronutrient composition. So there's, you know, so you can only get a certain amount of your calories
00:37:34.240
from fat, a certain amount from carbohydrates and a certain amount from protein. And he's shown that
00:37:39.580
in a lot of ways that can mimic a water fast. So, so that's, that's a lot of work that he's done,
00:37:45.400
but yeah, there are, there are a lot of benefits from doing, you know, just a 14, 16, 24 hour
00:37:51.760
intermittent fast as well. I actually practice something called time restricted eating where I
00:37:56.480
eat all of my food within, I try to eat it within a 10 hour time window so that I'm fasting for 14
00:38:01.460
hours every night. So you're sort of like getting this, you know, 14 hour intermittent fast on a
00:38:06.200
daily basis. And studies have shown, and this is a lot of work that's been done by Dr. Satch and
00:38:10.760
Panda at the Salk Institute. And, and that has shown, you know, to really improve metabolism in
00:38:17.840
general, just to make, make your metabolism runs better. And so that's something, you know,
00:38:22.800
definitely I would say a lot of benefits, but you're not going to be getting the, the robust
00:38:26.580
clearing away of damaged cells and regeneration from just doing a short fast like that. But there
00:38:31.700
are benefits just for normal metabolism, you know, that's important. So I think that I personally
00:38:37.420
think both I'd like to, you know, I'd like to start doing a little bit more of the more prolonged
00:38:42.020
fast. And I think Dr. Walter Longo's fasting mimicking diet's nice because a lot of people
00:38:46.880
don't want to do a water fast. It's a, it's a really hard stressor and, you know, it's kind of
00:38:52.040
daunting to some people to, to like not eat for three or four days. So the fasting mimicking diet,
00:38:58.180
which essentially is, like I said, it's a, it's a, there's a calorie cap. So, you know,
00:39:03.780
it's about 700 to 750 calories a day. And, you know, 44% of those calories come from fat,
00:39:10.140
47% come from carbohydrate and about nine, nine percent come from protein. And, and so he's got
00:39:15.740
this whole diet that sort of mimics that, that water fast and, and, and, and basically activates
00:39:21.860
a lot of the same cellular pathways and have a lot of the same responses. At least that's, that's what
00:39:26.560
he's, his preliminary data has shown. All right. So that's not for the faint of heart then.
00:39:30.460
Cause I was thinking like, as a parent, man, that, or like, you know, you're a working parent
00:39:34.320
three to five days without food. I think I'm already, you'd go bonkers.
00:39:39.000
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think the, the fasting mimicking diet seems like a lot,
00:39:44.640
definitely going to be more compliant where it's, you know, people will be, it'll be a lot easier
00:39:48.540
for people. And I know a lot of people that have done it. I haven't done it yet just because
00:39:52.420
when I started to get into this, I got pregnant and now I'm, you know, at the point where I'm
00:39:57.300
breastfeeding. And so I'm not like, I don't want to do any sort of fasting
00:40:00.100
crazy stuff, you know, until I'm, I'm done with, with that whole process. But, um, I, I am sort
00:40:07.360
of interested in trying it out soon. I'm definitely going to try that out.
00:40:10.480
Well, Rhonda, this has been a great conversation. We literally scratched the surface of what you've
00:40:14.580
written about. Where can people go to learn more about your work?
00:40:17.460
Certainly they can go to my website, which is foundmyfitness.com, foundmyfitness, all one word,
00:40:22.100
no spaces. I also have an iTunes podcast, which you can find by searching my name or also by just
00:40:27.420
searching foundmyfitness, all one word. I'm also foundmyfitness on all social media platforms,
00:40:34.800
Awesome. Well, Dr. Rhonda Patrick, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.
00:40:38.620
My guest here is Dr. Rhonda Patrick. She's the founder and owner of foundmyfitness. You can find
00:40:42.620
that at foundmyfitness.com where you can find all the episodes of her podcast as well as take that
00:40:47.200
genetic test we were talking about to see how your body interacts with different nutrients. Also check
00:40:51.220
out our show notes at aom.is slash optimize where you can find links to resources. We can delve deeper
00:40:56.100
into this topic. Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For
00:41:12.040
more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at
00:41:15.100
artofmanliness.com. And if you enjoy the show, please give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher.
00:41:19.240
It helps out a lot. And if you've done that already, please consider telling a friend or family member
00:41:22.860
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00:41:26.400
support. And until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.