The Art of Manliness - #392： How Jesuit Spirituality Can Improve Your Life

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00:01:24.060 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. 500 years ago,

00:01:28.260 St. Ignatius of Loyola, a soldier turned religious convert, created the Society of Jesus. My guest

00:01:32.640 today argues that many of the principles Ignatius used to guide the Jesuit order are just as applicable

00:01:36.380 to living a flourishing life today. His name is Father James Martin. He became the Jesuit priest

00:01:40.400 after his stint in corporate America and he's the author of the book, The Jesuit Guide to Almost

00:01:44.560 Everything. Today, Father Martin and I discuss why the insights of Ignatian spirituality have proven

00:01:48.560 useful to people from various faiths or lack of it and backgrounds and what these insights

00:01:52.260 can teach us citizens of modernity. We discuss why you should pay more attention to your desires,

00:01:55.760 the benefits of living simply, and how to free yourself from what Ignatius called disordered

00:01:59.400 attachments. We also explore how not to be disappointed with your friends, how to improve

00:02:02.960 those relationships, and how to think the best of others and ourselves. While Father Martin's advice

00:02:06.440 is obviously given in the context of Christian faith, he's a Catholic priest after all, non-believers 1.00

00:02:10.760 will also find plenty of insights in this show. After it's over, check out the show notes at

00:02:14.480 aom.is slash Jesuit. Father Martin joins me now via clearcast.io.

00:02:22.260 Reverend James Martin, welcome to the show.

00:02:31.780 My pleasure.

00:02:32.700 So you wrote a book, The Jesuit's Guide to Almost Everything. And what you look at is

00:02:38.420 you use sort of a layman's explanation of the Jesuit order and their philosophy and their

00:02:43.560 founder, Ignatius, how do you say his name?

00:02:46.560 Ignatius.

00:02:47.240 Ignatius. All right, Ignatius. So in St. Ignatius has a really interesting story.

00:02:52.420 Tell us about him and how he started the Jesuit order.

00:02:55.480 Sure. Well, he was born in 1491 in the Basque country of Spain, and he started out as a page

00:03:01.920 to a knight and then became a soldier. It was kind of vain. He describes himself in his own

00:03:06.560 autobiography as vain. He was very concerned with his hair, by the way. He kept talking about

00:03:11.580 that. And he is injured in a battle in 1521 in Pamplona, and that sort of prompts him to

00:03:17.960 reconsider his life. He ends up recuperating and reading books about Jesus and about the saints.

00:03:24.040 And he starts to have these experiences in prayer, which make him realize that the sort of former

00:03:30.360 way of life that he was leading, trying to impress people and kind of doing great deeds, was not as

00:03:35.460 satisfying as trying to live a holy life. And that leads him to, through a number of twists and turns,

00:03:41.420 down what's called the Society of Jesus, or religious order, better known as the Jesuit. So

00:03:45.780 that's a kind of thumbnail version of his life. He was a pretty headstrong guy. And the old joke in

00:03:51.620 the Jesuits is it took a cannonball to kind of turn his life around, which is how he got injured.

00:03:56.240 Yeah. And it's funny, his vanity, another instance of his vanity was his, you know,

00:04:00.320 hit his leg or something. And he was worried about how his leg would look in stockings.

00:04:04.920 So he wanted to do the surgery, and it just messed it up even more.

00:04:07.940 Yeah. They, you know, the tights of the time, I guess, showed off your legs, I guess. And

00:04:13.540 he had the surgery done, as you were saying, you know, after the cannonball hit him.

00:04:19.100 And it wasn't good enough. There was a little bone protruding. And so without anesthesia,

00:04:22.940 he had the doctor, you know, I think saw the bone off, you know, which I can't imagine how

00:04:27.900 painful that must have been. You know, and the reason he puts that in the book is to show you

00:04:32.360 how vain he was and to kind of say that he was a sort of a slave to his own appearance. Later on,

00:04:37.540 he decides, you know, he needs to move away from that. He lets his hair grow long and his

00:04:41.020 fingernails grow. And he even says, well, that doesn't make sense either. So he,

00:04:44.700 because it sort of scares people. So he opts for a kind of moderation. And that's a very

00:04:49.080 Jesuit thing to do, kind of, you know, whatever, whatever works best in the situation.

00:04:53.140 You also have an interesting story. How did you find your way into the priesthood?

00:04:56.120 And why did you choose the Society of Jesus?

00:04:58.600 Yeah, I went to the Wharton School of Business at Penn, graduated in 82, and then worked for six

00:05:03.880 years in corporate America at GE, and really just found myself sort of miserable and

00:05:09.360 not in the right place, square peg in a round hole. And I came upon a book by a guy named Thomas

00:05:14.920 Merton, who's a Trappist monk. And that got me thinking about doing something different. And funny

00:05:19.740 enough, to answer your question, the Jesuits, I knew nothing about the Jesuits. I mean, you know,

00:05:23.980 most Catholics know them for their schools like Georgetown and Fordham and BC. The old joke is,

00:05:29.240 you know, we started schools so they could win basketball scholarships and tournaments,

00:05:33.180 Gonzaga, places like that. But I knew nothing about them. And someone suggested them as

00:05:37.740 being kind of congenial to me. And I, you know, took my look and thought, this is it. This is for

00:05:42.980 me. They're very, it's a very kind of accessible and friendly spirituality. And the guys I met were

00:05:48.520 just great and funny and smart and hardworking. And yeah, it was a good fit. So I entered 30 years

00:05:54.760 ago this year.

00:05:55.860 Wow. So it didn't take a cannonball for you?

00:05:57.820 It did not. Although, you know, the job at GE was sufficiently difficult, not in terms of doing

00:06:05.680 it, but just, you know, my kind of distaste for it. And I started to get stress-related illnesses

00:06:11.340 and headaches and migraines. And so a different kind of cannonball. I mean, just a kind of

00:06:16.300 miserable life situation that prompted me to be more open. I think God really can enter into your

00:06:23.020 life a little bit more when you're vulnerable. That doesn't mean God kind of punishes us and

00:06:26.760 makes us sick or something like that. But, you know, when I was kind of down and out and feeling,

00:06:31.000 you know, like I didn't know where to go, my defenses were down. And I think God was able to

00:06:35.020 break in a little bit more easily.

00:06:37.060 So let's talk about Ignatian spirituality and how sort of his philosophy. There's four tenets,

00:06:42.960 basic tenets. What are those four tenets?

00:06:45.380 Well, they're four of my tenets, I would say. First is finding God in all things. And that means that

00:06:51.160 God is not just confined to the walls of a church or in scripture, you know, or in sort of personal

00:06:56.960 prayer. But, you know, God can be found in, you know, your relationships, in work, in music,

00:07:01.900 in your family. And it's a very broad-minded spirituality. Second is this notion of being

00:07:06.720 a contemplative in action, which means that, you know, most of us, and I would bet most people

00:07:12.000 are listening to this podcast, are pretty busy people. And none of us are monks. Very few of us are

00:07:17.080 monks. But can you have a kind of contemplative stance in the world, where you're looking at

00:07:22.380 things in a contemplative way and you're not going, you know, running from place to place

00:07:26.680 without any sort of reflection? That's another tenet. Third, it's incarnational, which means

00:07:31.560 that it trusts that God is kind of present. And, you know, in terms of Jesus, that Jesus

00:07:36.900 became, you know, God became human in Jesus. And there's a kind of comfort in that and an

00:07:41.600 ability to really connect with Jesus and connect with God. And then fourth, I would

00:07:46.640 say it's freedom. That's a really important thing for a lot of people these days. Freedom

00:07:51.600 and detachment. So for a lot of people who don't know Ignatian spirituality, it's very

00:07:56.080 similar to Buddhism, the sense of detachment and freedom. And you're not so attached to

00:08:02.080 something that you can't respond to God's will. You know, funny enough, I think if I

00:08:05.460 were to do it again, I'd just say three tenets. Because the incarnation and finding God in

00:08:10.780 all things are kind of close. But hey, you know, my book's not perfect.

00:08:14.260 Right. And that freedom and detachment, we'll talk a little about that later, reminded me

00:08:16.880 of Stoicism, too, in a lot of ways.

00:08:19.080 A little bit. I think the difference between Ignatian spirituality or more broadly Christian

00:08:24.300 spirituality and Stoicism is that it has an object. And so the freedom is freedom for

00:08:30.660 something. And the freedom for is, you know, responding to kind of God's voice in your

00:08:34.700 life. Whereas Stoicism, I think it's less, I mean, from what I remember about my philosophy

00:08:39.000 courses, you know, it's not connected to God per se. But there are many overlaps between

00:08:46.540 Ignatian spirituality. And again, I read like Marcus Aurelius, and it's very similar.

00:08:50.560 So this book you wrote, The Jesuit's Guide to Almost Everything, I mean, you're coming 0.98

00:08:53.520 at it from a Catholic perspective, from your background as a Jesuit. But what's interesting,

00:08:58.240 I've been reading the reviews about it, that people of all faiths and backgrounds, and even

00:09:02.500 people who aren't religious or don't even believe in God, they've gotten something out

00:09:06.940 of it. I mean, what do you think it is about the principles of Ignatian spirituality that makes it

00:09:11.140 so attractive or useful to people from all walks of life?

00:09:15.380 Well, for one thing, Ignatius himself dealt with people from all walks of life. And so it was not

00:09:20.560 someone who was just dealing with, you know, people in a monastery or sisters. He dealt with

00:09:25.280 people who were, you know, during the 16th century working and politicians and, you know, even royalty.

00:09:30.960 And so he wanted to make it accessible. But really, it's that finding God in all things that

00:09:37.360 I think really appeals to people. And even people who are seeking and agnostic or atheists, there's

00:09:43.340 a sense that Ignatian spirituality meets people where they are, which is what I try to do in the

00:09:48.280 book. But, you know, even if you don't believe in God, I have, you know, plenty of friends who are

00:09:51.900 agnostic and atheists. I think they like the idea of freedom. I think they like the idea of being able

00:09:58.080 to, for example, review your day in a prayer called the examine or the examination of conscience.

00:10:03.860 So there's a lot you could, there's, there's a whole chapter on decision-making, which is

00:10:07.420 very helpful for a lot of people. So, you know, I wrote it for everybody basically. And obviously

00:10:12.880 as a Jesuit, I want people to come to God and, you know, move closer to Jesus. But I recognize that

00:10:17.200 that is not where everybody is, you know, at the moment.

00:10:20.320 So, yeah, let's talk about some of these practices. You mentioned the examination of conscience or

00:10:23.520 the examine. What is the purpose of this exercise and what are the steps and

00:10:27.720 how can it be modified for people depending on their spiritual background or lack of it?

00:10:32.960 Sure. Well, the examine is basically a prayer that helps you review the day and see where

00:10:37.680 God is active. I think if you're not religious, it could probably function as a review and a

00:10:43.200 kind of self-examination, you know, which is certainly valuable. But it really, I think,

00:10:48.920 to be fully appreciated needs to be understood in the context of our relationship to God. So

00:10:53.540 what is it? Basically, you start off with placing yourself in God's presence. Okay. So just,

00:10:58.600 you know, you would do this maybe at the end of the day for 15 minutes. And by the way, if you go

00:11:02.560 online, we have examined podcasts at America that help you lead people through it. It's a little

00:11:06.720 easier if you're being led through it. Anyway, so you put yourself in God's presence. Remember that

00:11:11.280 it's not just you sort of plowing through the day, remembering things. Second, you call to mind

00:11:16.540 anything you're grateful for, right? And you call to mind, St. Ignatius says you savor it almost like

00:11:22.120 you're savoring a good meal or a fine wine. So that could be big things. You know, you got a

00:11:27.020 promotion, you got engaged, bought a new car, something like that. Or it could be small things.

00:11:33.340 You heard from a friend of yours that you hadn't heard from for a while. You, you know, went out with

00:11:37.060 a friend for a beer. Your favorite sports team, you know, won the World Series, you know, the Super Bowl,

00:11:42.700 as mine did recently. And you sort of savor these things and give thanks to God. You just, thanks,

00:11:47.940 thanks for, you know, a great thing happening today. And the reason you do that is because we

00:11:52.140 are generally problem solvers and we move on to the problems very quickly. So Ignatius wants to ground

00:11:56.420 you. The next step is your view of the day, start to finish. And you try to see where God has been

00:12:02.640 active. You know, where did you notice God's presence? Where was God active? Where did you turn away

00:12:07.260 from God? And that leads you to sorrow for your sins or your limitations. There's a sense of just

00:12:12.700 you know, being open about your limitations and your failings and your sinfulness. And then

00:12:18.020 last stage is you ask for the grace to see God in the next day. It's a very simple prayer. It takes

00:12:24.180 about 15 minutes at the end of the day, which is when most people like to do it. But it really gets

00:12:28.040 your spiritual house in order because I think it's a lot easier to see where God was than to see where

00:12:33.040 God is, frankly. Yeah, that's interesting. And as I was reading that, I thought it was kind of

00:12:38.100 saying Ignatius was sort of ahead of his time is that you see, you know, psychologists,

00:12:42.020 positive psychology saying, basically kind of giving people like, you should do this,

00:12:45.460 like show that you're, you know, think about what you're grateful for, review on how you can

00:12:48.740 improve yourself and et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, no, he's, I mean, he is a brilliant

00:12:52.940 psychologist, frankly. He understands how the human mind works and not only from going through

00:12:58.120 tough times in his own life, but really counseling other people. He's also great at helping people

00:13:02.640 sort of sort through, you know, where different feelings are coming from and what's leading you to

00:13:07.240 something healthy and what's leading you to something unhealthy. It really is. He's kind of a

00:13:11.400 master psychologist. And I, I found that Ignatius spirituality has really, I mean, that's kind

00:13:17.060 of an understatement has really not only changed my life, but helped me as a, just as a human being

00:13:21.140 sort of live a happier life and a more fulfilling life. And that's, those are some of the things I

00:13:25.280 wanted to communicate in the book to everybody. Yeah. And speaking of, you know,

00:13:29.640 seeing Ignatius as the psychologist, he devotes a lot of time to desires and thinking about your

00:13:33.840 desires. What's going on there? Because I mean, why he says you should pay attention to your desires.

00:13:39.080 What does he mean by that? Because when I think, I think when most people hear desire, they think

00:13:42.660 I desire food, I desire sex, I desire all these other things that aren't that great. So what is

00:13:47.780 he talking about when he's talking about desires? Yeah. Although I should say there's nothing wrong

00:13:51.480 with, you know, food and sex and clothing and things like that. I think what he's talking about are,

00:13:56.640 you know, the deep desires that lead us to know what God wants for us. And, you know, it's a very,

00:14:01.460 it's a very basic thing. So how does God call us to things? Okay. So if you want to talk about,

00:14:06.360 say something like marriage, right. Or, you know, falling in love, well, you know, God calls us

00:14:10.680 through physical attraction, spiritual attraction, emotional attraction. And most people who are

00:14:15.040 religious and are, you know, married or in love would say, you know, I think God called us together.

00:14:18.880 Well, that's how it works. You know, God calls us to our different vocations through what we're

00:14:23.900 interested in. Right. I mean, you desire to, for, for, you know, you desire to start this podcast.

00:14:28.900 There's a reason that you're excited about it, that you're interested in it. And this is one way

00:14:33.120 that God calls us to do the things we're meant to do. And then on a more fundamental level,

00:14:37.980 God calls us through our desires to be the kinds of people we're meant to be. So if you, I, and I bet

00:14:43.020 most of the people listening have a desire or an image in their minds of the person that they want

00:14:47.800 to become. Okay. Like more loving, more charitable, more relaxed, freer, less bothered by things. And I

00:14:57.080 would say that that image and that desire is one way that God calls us to be that kind of person,

00:15:03.160 right? I mean, how else would God work? So, so there's a sense that if you, if you pay attention

00:15:09.360 to your desires and your deepest desires, and you can discern which are kind of surface desires,

00:15:14.260 you know, like I want a new PC and which are the deep desires, it really can help you move towards

00:15:19.660 the person that God wants you to be. And it's, it's, it's, it's very freeing. And I think, you know,

00:15:24.160 people have been told for so long not to pay attention to their desires that when they hear

00:15:27.780 this, it, it kind of clicks. Makes sense. Well, what do you do about those? You know,

00:15:31.220 you talk about those higher level desires of being charitable, for example. So you might desire that,

00:15:36.040 but then like you don't desire to do the thing, like the, the, the things that you have to do to

00:15:40.520 be charitable. What, what do you, how do you learn to want to, to want that thing that you know is good

00:15:45.960 for you? What a great question. You know, that's exactly what St. Paul said. He said, I, I,

00:15:49.800 I don't do the good that I want to do. I do the bad that I don't want to do. But, and yeah,

00:15:54.160 I think first of all, by recognizing that it is a call, that it's not simply, oh, you know,

00:15:58.660 I have this interesting feeling to help that homeless guy. I mean, that it is in fact coming

00:16:03.180 from God and that God's going to help you. So if you decide that you want to live a more charitable

00:16:08.520 or peaceful or loving life, you know, this sort of feeling that that's what, what, what's being asked

00:16:15.440 of you to remember that first of all, it's a call. So to sort of reverence it in that way,

00:16:21.320 it's not just some, you know, you know, just a sort of fleeting feeling you have. Second,

00:16:26.040 that God's going to help you, right? I mean, why wouldn't God want to help you sort of live

00:16:29.680 more charitably? And frankly, third, that it might take some time before it feels natural,

00:16:34.240 you know, fake it till you make it, right? I mean, it may feel strange to be, to start to be

00:16:40.560 forgiving and let go of grudges and be more, more charitable, but that's okay. Because to,

00:16:46.700 to trust that, that God is on your side and that God knows what's best for you. I often use the

00:16:51.700 example of, this usually helps people. If you have like some injury and you go to a physical

00:16:56.600 therapist, right? And the PT guy says, all right, what I want you to do is walk around on your foot

00:17:02.080 in this particular way. Now, at the beginning, it might feel painful, but you know, you trust the

00:17:06.560 guy because he, you know, he's a PT guy and you will continue to do it because you trust it.

00:17:11.740 You know, it's good for you. And you know, that this guy has the best in mind for you. So that,

00:17:15.520 that's the idea that you, you, you follow these desires because you know where they're coming from

00:17:20.280 and you know that they're going to lead to your good and everybody else is good for that matter

00:17:23.620 too. Well, another thing you talked about sort of related to desires is this idea of disordered

00:17:28.560 attachments. What are those and how do they mess up people's lives? What Ignatius calls,

00:17:32.640 it's kind of a strange phrase, what Ignatius calls a disordered attachment, or you can also say an

00:17:36.760 unfreedom is anything that keeps you from becoming the person you want to be or the person that

00:17:41.680 God wants you to be and responding to, you know, God's will in your life. So for example,

00:17:46.340 if you're so attached to something that you can't be a loving person, then it's disordered.

00:17:52.160 The best example is, let's say you're in the hospital, right? And you know, you're a good

00:17:57.060 friend of mine and I want to visit you, but I say to myself, oh my gosh, if I go to the hospital,

00:18:02.120 I'm going to get sick because there's all these sick people in the hospital.

00:18:04.820 Well, Ignatius would say, you are so attached to your own health or your own desire for perfect

00:18:11.880 health that it's disordered. It's actually preventing you from being a good friend, right?

00:18:17.180 From being a good human being. So he would say, you need to really look at that and you need to

00:18:22.740 kind of free yourself of those disordered attachments. And we all have them. We all have

00:18:27.380 those unfreedoms in our life. If you're so attached to status and power and money that you can't be a good

00:18:33.540 person, then that is a disordered attachment and you need to let go of it. It's hard to do, but

00:18:39.740 it's essential. Right. There's that Buddhist sort of connection there a bit.

00:18:43.940 Yeah, sure. This sense of being free and not being tied down.

00:18:48.940 Did Ignatius have any practices to help you, I don't know, get over these disordered attachments

00:18:55.200 or do the things you know you should do? Did he have any mental or spiritual exercises he suggested?

00:19:01.860 He did. And one of them is called agere contra. Agere means to act and contra is obviously against.

00:19:09.020 And he means to start doing it even though it feels like it's unnatural. To act against your natural,

00:19:15.220 for example, selfish desire. So for example, when I was a Jesuit novice, I was very concerned with my

00:19:21.640 health and I said to my novice director, well, the last thing I want to do for my ministry is work in

00:19:27.000 the hospital. He said, why not? And I said, well, I don't want to get sick and kind of grossed out

00:19:32.780 around people who are sick and all the sights and smells and sounds. And he said, well, good. Well, 0.58

00:19:39.440 you'll be working in a hospital. And that wasn't to punish me. That wasn't to make me feel bad about

00:19:47.080 myself or to put me in my place. It was agere contra. It was to act against your natural

00:19:53.200 inclination in order to free yourself up. And so when I went in and spent, gee, a couple months

00:19:59.140 there, you know, working in a hospital for seriously ill patients, this was in Cambridge,

00:20:03.200 Mass. It did. It freed me of that. And also what kind of a Jesuit or priest would you be if you

00:20:09.100 could never go into a hospital? So that's agere contra. That's working against or acting against 0.69

00:20:14.040 your natural desire or your natural inclination if it's an unhealthy inclination or desire.

00:20:19.880 So the unhealthy inclination was to only, you know, care for my own health.

00:20:23.700 And I think this was your, I don't know if this was Ignatius, but one that really hit home to me was

00:20:27.960 act like your best self would. Yeah, that's actually my, that's my addition to Ignatius.

00:20:34.460 Right. I like to say to people, imagine, and this is also a good decision-making tool,

00:20:40.540 imagine the person that you really want to become. So I think we all, as I mentioned earlier,

00:20:45.360 we all have an idea of the person we'd like to be in like five years, you know, 10 years.

00:20:48.840 It's especially true for young people. If you're like right out of college, you know, yeah, okay,

00:20:53.540 this is the kind of person I want to be. Or you see someone, you say, boy, I'd like to be like that

00:20:57.360 guy. You know, he's so kind and he's so nice and he's so confident, whatever. And the trick I think

00:21:03.780 is to say to yourself, all right, in this particular situation, within this decision-making time,

00:21:11.200 what would my best self do? And it's very clarifying. Can I give you an example?

00:21:16.680 Yeah, please. A good friend of mine's father died a few years ago. Very good friend of mine,

00:21:21.660 a Jesuit. And the funeral was in upstate New York in Buffalo, as I recall. And I was very busy and

00:21:29.160 there was this snowstorm coming and it was really kind of a tough week. And I didn't quite know what

00:21:34.600 to do. It was very hard for me to figure out the right thing to do. You know, on one hand,

00:21:38.700 I'd work and the other hand, I had all sorts of, you know, desires to be with my friend.

00:21:42.340 And so in any event, I went back and forth, you know, what's the right thing to do?

00:21:46.600 And finally, I used that tool. I said to myself, what would my best self do? And I tell you,

00:21:52.360 within a second, I realized, oh, he'd go. I mean, you know, my best self, the person I want to be,

00:21:58.560 would go to his friend's father's funeral. No question. Like, just like that, it came.

00:22:03.320 And so I did, and I was very happy I did. So what would your best self do and do it?

00:22:07.600 Yeah. What I like about that is that it gets, it makes, so there's that whole fake it till you

00:22:11.860 make it and people feel phony, but that think, I'm thinking about what your best self would do

00:22:16.540 sort of reduces that cognitive dissonance. Cause you're like, oh, this is me. Like,

00:22:20.740 this is what I want. This is what I would do. That's exactly right. And it's okay to feel like

00:22:24.740 it's unnatural. I mean, of course it's going to feel unnatural if you've been acting a particular

00:22:28.860 way and you're changing your life that, you know, it's like going to the gym for the first time.

00:22:33.400 If you've never been, it's going to feel odd. You're going to feel funny in those clothes. And maybe

00:22:37.440 you're self-conscious, but eventually it'll, it'll just kick in and you'll feel comfortable

00:22:41.640 there that I think the fact that it feels unnatural is not a reason not to do it. And it's, it's okay

00:22:46.880 to, to admit that and to say, you know, I'm trying something new, but I know that this is going to

00:22:51.080 help. So one of the things Jesuits do, like a lot of other orders is they take a vow of poverty.

00:22:56.900 Why, why is that? What's the purpose of that?

00:22:58.840 Well, the real purpose of the vows, which is poverty, chastity and obedience is to follow Jesus. So

00:23:04.000 Jesus lived poor. I mean, we know that chaste, he didn't get married and obedient, you know, 0.95

00:23:08.760 to, to the father's will. So that's the main reason, but it also is very freeing. You know,

00:23:13.900 I don't own anything. I don't, everything I get from my books and salary, I work at a Catholic

00:23:18.500 magazine goes to my Jesuit community. It's very freeing. I don't have to worry about, you know,

00:23:24.920 my next job, even if you will call it that, you know, we have, we have ministries in the Jesuits

00:23:29.480 and it's, it's just great. I love it. You know, the society of Jesus, the Jesuits take care of

00:23:34.860 me. I mean, I, as we say, three hots and a cot and, you know, anything that I would need in terms

00:23:39.520 of clothes and things like that. But that is for me, the easiest vow. I mean, I, when I worked at GE,

00:23:44.300 I was doing pretty well. I was making a good salary and, you know, I had a lot of suits and a lot of

00:23:49.260 stuff and a car. And I love not having a lot of things. I really do. It's, I mean, a friend of mine

00:23:55.840 came into my room the other day and said, you know, I have books and clothes and stuff, obviously.

00:24:00.300 He said, where's all the rest of your stuff? I said, that's it. It's great. It's very,

00:24:05.800 you feel very light. So that's the, and it's also a way to identify with the poor. We don't live,

00:24:10.860 you know, like homeless people, but we live very simply. And we try to identify with people who are

00:24:15.920 poor, which is what Jesus did. He tried to live simply and, and, and his first, you know,

00:24:21.940 his primary audience was the poor.

00:24:24.040 We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors. Hey, podcast fans,

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00:26:04.520 So how can ordinary people, I don't know, live this idea of, you know, poverty or simplicity without

00:26:11.120 having to become a, you know, a monk or whatever? Sure. Yeah. Most people aren't going to become monks

00:26:17.060 by trying to live simply and looking at what you have with a critical eye and saying,

00:26:22.200 do I really need this? You know, at GE of all places to learn spiritual advice, we used to talk

00:26:27.060 about nice to have and need to have. I mean, you know, how many sweaters do you need, right? How

00:26:33.000 many sneakers do you need? Do you really need all that stuff? And can you get rid of them? And people

00:26:37.580 always feel better when they do spring cleaning, when they get rid of a lot of crap. And then to also say 0.62

00:26:42.740 that it, it's better to give it to the poor. One of the great lines from a Catholic saint,

00:26:47.880 St. Francis de Sales, I think, said, that extra coat in your closet doesn't belong to you.

00:26:53.180 It belongs to the poor. So there's also a sense of giving away, not only for your own sense of

00:26:58.620 freedom, but for the poor. And going back to this idea of, you know, one of the big overarching themes

00:27:04.200 in Ignatian spirituality is moderation. So, I mean, it seems like he was not keen on taking poverty

00:27:11.560 to the extreme. No, he wasn't. And he learned that early on in his life when we mentioned,

00:27:17.960 you know, his sort of attention to his appearance. And at one point he let his hair grow long and he

00:27:23.500 let his fingernails grow long. He said, I'm not going to take care of my health. I'm not going to

00:27:26.760 eat well. I'm going to eat like a hermit. And it really screwed up with his health or screwed up his 0.99

00:27:32.040 health. And he realized that that's not going to help him work. I mean, he needed to kind of have

00:27:37.300 a certain amount of health. So he tried to have things in moderation. And so the Jesuits, we don't

00:27:42.180 live like homeless people. We don't live like hermits. We have houses. We have, you know, beds and

00:27:47.720 clothes and food and things like that in order to help us do our work. It's a very practical

00:27:52.100 spirituality. Now, that might be different than Francis of Assisi, right, who did live extremely simply

00:27:58.040 and didn't want his brothers to have, you know, even a house. But for Ignatius, his way of

00:28:03.380 discerning was that if we just, you know, try to live simply and do things in moderation, it's a lot

00:28:08.560 better for helping us do our work. So Ignatius also had a lot to say about not just our relationship

00:28:14.320 to God, but also about our relationship to other people. And so I think that was some of the most

00:28:21.020 interesting and probably useful things I got out of the book was our friendships and relationships.

00:28:25.660 Yeah, thanks. Well, we Jesuits take a vow of chastity, which means we don't get married,

00:28:31.400 we don't have sex, we don't have what we call exclusive relationships. And that means that

00:28:35.920 it's a different way of loving. It's a way of loving people, you know, deeply, but also freely.

00:28:41.280 So a lot of it relies on friendships, very deep friendships. And I talk in the book about

00:28:45.600 the value of having close friends and what it means to be a good friend and what it means to

00:28:51.740 sort of celebrate your friendship. So, you know, the way of chastity and the way of St. Ignatius

00:28:56.660 is not about, you know, just like being in your room all night and just, you know, kind of staring

00:29:01.460 at the TV because you don't have anyone in your life. It's about celebrating your friends and really

00:29:07.880 loving them deeply and seeing in that love an expression of God's love. So that too can be very

00:29:14.480 freeing. I often tell people, I certainly miss, you know, one-on-one intimacy and sex and exclusivity in that

00:29:21.380 way. But I have a ton of friends and I, this is not better or worse. I just simply have more time

00:29:27.180 for them than people who are married. I just do. I mean, that's, you know, that, that, that would

00:29:32.400 make sense, I think, to most people. And so to have these great friends who you can love freely and

00:29:38.020 deeply is really a blessing. And I think part of the book is to remind people of the value of

00:29:42.500 friendships, even people who are married, right? I mean, this is not just for single people or

00:29:47.300 celibate people or chaste people. It's for people who are married too, because we tend to overlook

00:29:51.520 that. We tend to overlook the value of friendship and that kind of love in our, in our society.

00:29:58.020 Well, one overarching principle for friendship in all relationships that Ignatius taught was

00:30:02.280 something called the presupposition. What is that principle and how can it improve relationships?

00:30:07.180 Yeah, that can improve relationships. I think it can improve our country too, especially right now.

00:30:11.220 The presupposition is something that he began what's called his spiritual exercises with,

00:30:16.320 which is his great manual on prayer. And he said, basically, it's giving people the benefit of the

00:30:21.240 doubt. And so if someone says something that you don't understand or don't agree with, you ask them

00:30:25.360 what they mean by it. And if you still don't understand, you give them the benefit of the

00:30:29.680 doubt. You presume that the person is trying to act on his or her best interests and you don't

00:30:35.620 critique them without listening to them. And, you know, boy, just go on social media or Twitter or

00:30:40.460 Facebook or even Instagram and you can see people not giving one another the benefit of the doubt.

00:30:45.240 I mean, always taking someone's words and twisting them or assuming the worst. And

00:30:50.160 it's interesting that, for me at least, that that is the beginning of his classic text on

00:30:56.240 the spiritual life, which is, you know, it's not some footnote. That is sort of front and center.

00:31:01.180 Give people the benefit of the doubt. As we say in the Jesuits, give them the plus sign.

00:31:05.480 And it's really, you know, it frees you up from a lot of grudges and resentment and,

00:31:09.980 you know, kind of ridiculous anger that has nothing to do with the reality of the situation.

00:31:15.480 It's just your interpretation of it. And it frees the other person, you know, it just lets them be 0.77

00:31:19.700 who they are. So I find that really helpful. So yeah, the presupposition is key for Ignatian

00:31:26.620 spirituality. I wish more people in our political system used it too.

00:31:30.260 Yeah, no, I, I've, that would hit home hard for me because I often, because it's so easy to do

00:31:34.500 when someone like a friend, say, snubs you or forgets you and you think, oh, you just think 0.99

00:31:39.880 what a jerk. He's so thoughtless when you think, well, no, he's probably like really busy. He's got 0.99

00:31:44.960 something going on in his life. So assume that instead of assuming the worst.

00:31:48.300 Exactly. And, and, and they usually do. That's, that's the irony. When you dig a little deeper,

00:31:52.140 you find that, you know, people who are in those situations do, you know, are struggling,

00:31:56.380 you know, that old thing about be kind to people, everybody's fighting their own battle. I'm sure

00:32:00.520 you've heard that expression. There's a little of that, you know, if someone snaps at you or,

00:32:06.000 you know, shoves in front of you on the subway, I live in New York, you know, can you say, boy,

00:32:09.820 this person, yeah, maybe they have a really, maybe they're rushing to visit, you know, their

00:32:13.480 husband in the hospital, right? I mean, instead of like punching them in the face or wanting them to

00:32:17.660 die, you, you say a prayer for that person. And it's, it's much, it's, it's a much better way to 0.98

00:32:23.540 live. And it really frees you of a lot of really unnecessary anger. Now that's not to say that

00:32:29.020 people, you know, aren't, you know, intentionally mean to us from time to time, but most of the time

00:32:33.680 it's not intentional and it's, it's good to give them the plus sign as we say.

00:32:37.700 So, you know, going back to that idea of being disappointed in our friends for not being better

00:32:41.600 friends for X, Y, or Z reason, what do you think, or what does Ignatius think is really behind

00:32:47.060 these disappointments? Is it, I mean, is it because we're thinking of people as things that

00:32:53.280 they're there to satisfy us and our needs and our desires?

00:32:55.980 I think that's part of it, that we look at people as functional and they should be satisfying our

00:33:01.360 desires. There's a sense of, I'd say not all the time, but there's, there can be a sense of

00:33:06.340 selfishness that I need to be at the center of everybody's life. And there's also a sense of

00:33:11.000 proportion that, you know, not everybody can always be attentive to you and can always be at your

00:33:16.680 beck and call and it's loving your friends as they are. So I'll tell you a funny story. One of

00:33:22.020 my best friends is terrible at keeping in touch. Just absolutely awful. I mean, you know, I'll text

00:33:28.600 him and I'll be like, yes, no. And he, and I asked him once, he said, I just, I don't like texting.

00:33:34.800 I don't like talking on the phone a whole lot. I love, you know, being together and, you know,

00:33:38.940 we take vacations together and we, you know, we have tons of fun. We're together. So what's the

00:33:43.360 point of this long story? The point is I need to let my friend be who he is, right? I mean,

00:33:48.820 I, I need to love him as he is, not as I would want him to be. You know, the person who calls me

00:33:53.360 every week religiously or texts me or, and we've talked about it. I said, you know what? He said,

00:33:58.320 that's just the way I am. I just, I don't like going on the phone. I don't like, I've never have

00:34:02.960 ever since I was little, that's who he is. So can I love him like that and not demand that he be the

00:34:08.500 kind of friend that I want or think I need? And boy, I tell you, once you free yourself of,

00:34:13.440 of that, you free yourself of the desire to sort of make people in your own image, it's, it's,

00:34:19.080 your life is a lot more pleasant. What does Sydney say about keeping friendships and nurturing them

00:34:24.560 when we're so busy and mobile? I mean, you, you're, you're not married, so you have more time for

00:34:29.120 friends, but you're also very busy because you're doing lots of stuff. So what are your insights about

00:34:33.020 that? Well, it takes work. I think that's one of the most important things. They, they don't just

00:34:37.600 happen, you know, I mean, friendships develop organically, but to keep them alive, it's like

00:34:42.420 a garden. I mean, you have to water them and nourish them and nurture them. So that, that means

00:34:46.500 time with people and attention and sacrificing your time and, and really wanting the best for them.

00:34:52.760 So I think it's really important to say that, you know, even with distance, it requires, it requires

00:34:58.860 some energy and some effort, but it's worth it. Ignatius has an expression called union of hearts and

00:35:04.240 minds and that, you know, the Jesuits, especially early on when there were a few of them and they

00:35:08.840 were all over the globe, you know, people like St. Francis Xavier, who was in India and Africa and

00:35:13.360 China, you know, they, they kept in touch with letters. That was the way that they did it back then.

00:35:18.240 And now you can talk about, you know, obviously email and texts and things like that, but it requires

00:35:23.860 one-on-one time, it requires FaceTime. And that's, that's an investment in friendship. You know, we invest in

00:35:29.280 our jobs and in our careers, we would say, Oh, of course, you know, I'll take this time out to

00:35:33.160 get an MBA or, you know, work overtime because I really, my career is really important to me,

00:35:37.600 which is true and great. Or I will, you know, sacrifice myself for my family. Well, it's also,

00:35:43.380 you need to, in a sense, do this kind of same kinds of things for relationships in your life and

00:35:47.960 friendships in your life. Or you'll find, since we're talking about the art of manliness, you know,

00:35:52.160 like a lot of guys, you know, who are out of school for a couple of years and married, they,

00:35:56.600 their friendships atrophy. I'm sure you know that. And yeah, it's just, it's, and a lot of my guy

00:36:02.760 friends, you know, say, you know, how do you, how are you able to keep up? You know, okay. One reason

00:36:06.580 is I'm not married, but another reason is, you know, I really, I'm very attentive to that. You

00:36:12.360 know, I really, I really sort of spend time develop, you know, basically, you know, calling them from

00:36:16.200 time to time and just keeping up. And that is a great, I'm sure, you know, that is a great sort of

00:36:21.780 sadness among a lot of married men that they don't, yeah. And so that's a, that's a real insight from

00:36:27.400 Ignatius, union of hearts and minds and really spending time on it. There's a practice you

00:36:32.240 mentioned that Jesuits use to build friendship called faith sharing. What, what is that?

00:36:36.320 Yeah, it's pretty great. We get together, depends on the group of guys, with my friends once a month,

00:36:42.180 and you talk about where God has been active in your daily life and in your prayer. Now, not everybody's

00:36:47.740 going to be able to do it in that way, you know, because they might not be religious or have

00:36:51.100 religious friends, but, you know, can you get together with your, your guy friends or, you

00:36:55.540 know, if you're, you know, female friends, it doesn't have to be just guys and talk about things

00:36:59.660 that I like to say are meaningful, significant, or important. That's a nice way to start off.

00:37:03.820 What's meaningful, significant, or important that's happened over the last month or a couple

00:37:08.020 of weeks. And it's really wonderful because not only from a religious point of view, do you

00:37:14.320 see how God is at work at each person's life, but it really helps you to, to, in a sense,

00:37:18.980 be compassionate to your friend. So let's, let's take an example. Let's say you have a

00:37:22.540 group of three or four guy friends that get together and one guy has been out of touch

00:37:27.660 or has been a little distant or aloof, and you don't really share with him on any sort

00:37:32.700 of deep level or you haven't for a while. And when he sits down and says, you know, I have

00:37:36.800 to tell you my, you know, my father's going through a cancer treatment or, you know, I'm

00:37:41.040 really struggling at my job. You have this sense of understanding him better such that you

00:37:46.600 can be a better friend to him, right? That doesn't have to happen in a group, but we

00:37:50.160 find it's, it's really helpful when it does happen in a group because there's something

00:37:54.600 about a group dynamic that, that when the person shares what's going on and people can

00:37:59.580 kind of respond in a gentle way, it also helps the person feel really supported too. So yeah,

00:38:04.380 face sharing is, is really important for personal support, but from a religious point of view,

00:38:09.340 it also helps to see where God has been at work. When it, when it's hard to see God at work

00:38:13.240 in your life, it's easier to see where God is at work in the other guy's life.

00:38:16.440 I'm sure that's hard for a lot of men to open up like that though, too.

00:38:19.260 Yeah, it is. Although, you know, it's funny. It is and it isn't. I was just on a pilgrimage

00:38:22.780 to the Holy Land just two weeks ago and we had a hundred people and, you know, they're religious,

00:38:28.520 of course, but a lot of the people who were on the trip, probably most of them were very

00:38:32.900 successful, fairly wealthy, you know, adult men. Okay. So it was men and women kind 0.52

00:38:39.480 of a mix. And, you know, you had like captains of industry to use that old fashioned term.

00:38:44.240 And when they got in a group and once one person opened up about, you know, the death of a child

00:38:49.960 and illness, divorce, it gave permission for the other guys to do it. And it gave permission

00:38:55.820 for people to be themselves and for people to talk about their desires and people to talk about

00:39:00.020 where God was in their lives. And so I'd say yes and no. I think that, you know, if it's done in a way

00:39:06.560 that I, that is, how would I say it? That's inviting. I think people respond to it because

00:39:12.320 I think there's a deep need and a deep desire for people to be known and for people to be open and

00:39:20.200 transparent. I really do. Would you agree? People want to be known. People want to be recognized.

00:39:25.960 Yeah. And they, and they, and I think, you know, you know, I mean, I think it'd be hard to do at a

00:39:29.420 bar, but you know, maybe in a different setting where people feel more comfortable. That's not,

00:39:34.360 by the way, that's not to say that those, those kinds of sharings don't happen at bars and places

00:39:38.060 like that, but I think to, to, to provide a space where people feel safe can be a real blessing for

00:39:44.180 people. Right. And like you said, it takes, it just takes one person and kind of going biblical.

00:39:48.000 It's like the leaven, right? Just like one little bit can just have a big effect. Yeah. And you know,

00:39:53.120 their truth begets truth. And I think that, and as they say, you know, heart speaks to heart too.

00:39:58.180 So there, there's a, there's a kind of recognition that, wow, we're all human. And, and I think that's

00:40:04.020 one of the lessons I learned when I was out of college that I think, you know, most of my colleges

00:40:07.340 were trying to be cool and looking like I was on top of everything. But, you know, once you're out

00:40:11.560 of college for some people earlier, you realize that everybody's struggling, everybody's kind of

00:40:15.940 facing their own battles and it's okay. And to be able to support one another means at the very first

00:40:21.620 step is to be honest with one another.

00:40:24.700 So you mentioned, we talked about the vow of poverty. You hit on the vow of chastity. Another

00:40:29.060 vow that you take is the vow of obedience, but that's a, that's a virtue or an ideal that it's

00:40:34.640 pretty unpopular with the general public because when he's like, when you be obedient, it means

00:40:40.020 like you're a dog or it makes you think of not, you know, Nazis or whatever. Yeah. So how does

00:40:44.660 obedience work in the order and how do, how much say do Jesuits get as to where and what they are

00:40:50.080 assigned to? Yeah, that's a good question. I never thought of the Nazi analogy too, but that is a good 0.97

00:40:54.080 sort of negative view of obedience. It's obedience to God basically. And, you know, so it's trying to

00:41:00.840 understand where God's at work. And so one, one way of looking at obedience I talk about in the book

00:41:06.340 is, you know, my dad died in 2001 of cancer. And, you know, when the diagnosis was given to him and

00:41:14.960 to us and the family, you know, I had a choice, right? I could be a complete jerk and say, well, I'm not 0.99

00:41:21.260 going to really engage this. I'm not going to kind of enter into this, or I could be, this is where the 0.99

00:41:25.560 word comes and I could be obedient to what God wants me to do, which is to really be a good son

00:41:29.960 and to kind of step onto that path. And as a friend of mine likes to say, surrender to the future God

00:41:35.040 has in store for you. So it's that kind of obedience for the Jesuit. Obedience is obedience to

00:41:40.920 your religious superiors who, you know, ask you to do certain jobs. And the idea is that they would

00:41:46.100 have, you know, they're at a, the most, the highest level would be the head of all the

00:41:51.080 Jesuits in Rome, who has a better idea of, you know, what the needs of the church are than you

00:41:54.800 do, you know, me and my little office in New York. So if he would just say, Jim, hey, we need you to

00:41:59.840 do this job. The idea is that he has a better idea of where the greater needs are and also that God's

00:42:06.340 leading him. So it's that kind of obedience too. But really it's obedience to God. It's obedience to

00:42:12.000 what God wants. And yeah, it's not a, it's not a popular idea right now, but I think it's,

00:42:17.400 it's necessary because if you're in a sense disobedient to what God wants, then it's all

00:42:23.040 about you. Right. It's just like, I mean, let's say to use the example of my dad, right. Who died,

00:42:28.020 you know, let's say I were to say, yeah, I'm too busy to visit him. I mean, you know, that's a kind

00:42:32.840 of disobedience, right. That's kind of, that's a kind of freedom that I don't think, you know,

00:42:37.020 would be very helpful. I mean, you know, I could see a lot of people do that, you know, would say like,

00:42:40.780 you know, well, I'll leave it. I'm the, I'm no doctor, so I can't really help. Or yeah,

00:42:45.300 I don't want to get too sentimental because I don't know if I could go there or, or there's this

00:42:50.080 kind of, there's a kind of withdrawal from those difficult situations that I think we all feel we

00:42:55.240 don't want to do it, but that's the obedience. That's the hard obedience. And that's the kind of

00:42:59.900 stuff I talk about in the book. Well, what if, let's say your desires and the desires of your

00:43:04.840 superiors conflict, right? Let's say your superior says, this is what we need to do. But you're like,

00:43:09.380 no, I really feel like this is what I, what I should be doing. What happens there?

00:43:13.980 That happens fairly frequently and usually with assignments. So let's say, so here I am,

00:43:18.700 I work at America Magazine, a Catholic magazine. Let's say my superior says, well, you know,

00:43:23.240 Jim, you've been there 20 years now, you know, it was a good run. Now we need you to be pastor of

00:43:27.720 this church. Now I would, he would say, you know, go pray about it, see what comes up, you know,

00:43:33.420 sort of see what your desires are and where God might be leading you and how you feel about that.

00:43:37.900 You know, what does that, what does that do to you inside? And, and usually the Jesuit would come 1.00

00:43:42.840 back and say, yeah, okay. You know, that's, yeah, I think, you know, I think that makes sense. And I

00:43:47.260 trust that you're praying about this and that, you know, you've got my best interest at heart and

00:43:51.760 that you've got the best interest of, of, you know, the world and of God's people in the church at

00:43:56.320 heart. So yeah, I'll do it. Now, a lot of times, or maybe sometimes the guy would say, you know what,

00:44:02.040 I'm not feeling that. You know, I really, the last thing I want to do is be a pastor. I'm really not

00:44:08.100 good at organizing. I'm like terrible at whatever. The superior might say, okay, you know, thanks for,

00:44:14.680 that's, that's good. You know, maybe you're right. And I, I hear that. So, you know, stay in America. 0.56

00:44:19.000 Or he might say, yeah, you know what, we really need you. And that's where you would say, okay,

00:44:26.900 I guess I'm going. And the idea is again, that he has a better understanding in mind. Now for a lot

00:44:33.560 of people that seems like, oh my gosh, I could never do that. But that's what we do at work.

00:44:38.020 You know, I worked at GE for, for six years. And let me tell you, I'd a, I'd a hell of a lot less say

00:44:43.820 at GE about what I was going to do day to day than in the Jesuits. So I, I, I often talk about

00:44:50.300 obedience and remind people who are in the corporate world, like, you know, what do you do?

00:44:53.840 You know, you're, you're obedient to your boss. And, you know, it's often not a kind of communal

00:44:59.300 discernment as we say, but the, the ultimate obedience is really to God. Right. So, I mean,

00:45:04.980 for a regular person, I mean, what does that look like? It's just, it's, it's following those,

00:45:09.640 I don't know, those compunctures of conscience to do the right thing. Is that what it is?

00:45:14.680 I think that's part of it. I think the idea of surrendering to the future that God has in store

00:45:19.180 is really important. I think, you know, obedience, you know, it's easy to be obedient when something's

00:45:23.880 easy. Right. So let's say, you know, you get a promotion or you're, you're going to get married

00:45:28.940 or your wife's going to have a baby or whatever. I mean, you know, the obedience is, wow, you know,

00:45:33.240 I'm going to enjoy the new job and say yes to it and really jump into it, or I'm going to get married

00:45:38.400 and I'm going to really love it. So there is an obedience there. There's a kind of assent

00:45:42.880 to, to what's going on. That's, that's important. But the hard part is when it's suffering and that,

00:45:49.440 that's where the real obedience comes in. And that's really, I think the answer is your question,

00:45:53.460 which is to say yes to those things, even those things that you think are going to be difficult

00:45:58.960 because you feel that this is the right thing to do. So the example of going to my friend's father's

00:46:03.900 funeral, which was a small thing, but the big thing of, you know, really caring for my father

00:46:08.260 and entering into that, because I'm sure, you know, there's a way, I mean, wouldn't you agree?

00:46:12.240 There's a way of kind of standing at arm's length from some of those things.

00:46:15.100 No, yeah, for sure.

00:46:16.100 Yeah. Like you can say, I'm not just, I'm just not going to engage it. I mean, it's just not going to,

00:46:19.920 and I know guys like that. It's just, I'm just, it's not, I'm just not going to enter into that.

00:46:24.180 And so the, the obedience is to say yes, to say yes to those things.

00:46:29.020 And then that requires too, to like be detached from outcomes or whatever.

00:46:34.880 That is exactly right. Or be detached from the need to, for example, I think one of the hard

00:46:39.920 things about, you know, when my dad died was I knew that, I mean, you know, I'm not an idiot. I

00:46:45.600 knew that it was going to be tremendously sad and difficult and frightening and disappointing and

00:46:52.820 confusing, you know, just to watch him go through the treatment and to help my mother and to eventually

00:46:58.640 prepare for the funeral. Right. Now there's a way, particularly with guys that we can say no to

00:47:06.000 that. Right. We can say no to that, to that reality and just distance ourselves and kind of close

00:47:13.680 ourselves down. And I know guys like this. They're just, they're not letting it in. They're not saying

00:47:19.640 yes to it. And it's on their terms. Right. I will. All right. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll go to the funeral,

00:47:26.200 but I won't, you know, I'm not going to go to see my hospital or I'm going to go to the hospital.

00:47:29.520 I'm just going to sort of keep myself at arm's length. So you're right. So the, the, the obedience

00:47:35.220 is saying yes to those things and, and doing the right thing. And even, you know, to, to your point

00:47:41.680 to say, even if it's something that I need to let go of, like my attachment might be to my own

00:47:47.400 sort of emotional equanimity, right? Like I don't like to cry or I don't like to feel out of control

00:47:52.820 or I don't want to be upset. And so that's a disordered attachment there. Right. So I'm not

00:47:58.580 going to let myself feel. See what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's the attachment.

00:48:03.860 The, you know, I don't want to be emotional and you have to let go of that in order to really enter

00:48:07.780 into the situation where you will find God. Well, Reverend Martin, this has been a great

00:48:12.900 conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book? Well, the Jesuit Guide to almost

00:48:16.820 everything is, is as they say, available where anywhere books are sold. I also have a Facebook page,

00:48:21.900 other father, James Martin, SJ, and I'm under Twitter and Instagram under James Martin, SJ. So

00:48:28.160 yeah, anywhere online, you can find information about the Jesuit Guide.

00:48:32.160 Fantastic. Well, Father James Martin, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:48:34.740 My pleasure.

00:48:35.480 My guest there is Father James Martin. He's the author of the book,

00:48:37.640 The Jesuit Guide to Almost Everything. It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.

00:48:41.360 Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash Jesuit. We can find links to resources. We can delve deeper

00:48:46.140 into this topic.

00:48:51.900 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,

00:49:00.060 make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. If you enjoy the show,

00:49:04.000 I'd appreciate it if you give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher. And if you've done that already,

00:49:07.040 thank you. Please consider sharing the podcast with a friend who you think would get something

00:49:10.240 out of it. As always, thank you for your continued support. And until next time,

00:49:13.340 this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.

The Art of Manliness - March 29, 2018

#392： How Jesuit Spirituality Can Improve Your Life

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