#392： How Jesuit Spirituality Can Improve Your Life
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Summary
500 years ago, St. Ignatius of Loyola, a soldier turned religious convert, created the Society of Jesus, or Jesuits, better known as the Jesuits. Today, Father James Martin, a Catholic priest who became a priest after a stint in corporate America, argues that many of the principles Ignatians used to guide the order are just as applicable to living a flourishing life today.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. 500 years ago,
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St. Ignatius of Loyola, a soldier turned religious convert, created the Society of Jesus. My guest
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today argues that many of the principles Ignatius used to guide the Jesuit order are just as applicable
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to living a flourishing life today. His name is Father James Martin. He became the Jesuit priest
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after his stint in corporate America and he's the author of the book, The Jesuit Guide to Almost
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Everything. Today, Father Martin and I discuss why the insights of Ignatian spirituality have proven
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useful to people from various faiths or lack of it and backgrounds and what these insights
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can teach us citizens of modernity. We discuss why you should pay more attention to your desires,
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the benefits of living simply, and how to free yourself from what Ignatius called disordered
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attachments. We also explore how not to be disappointed with your friends, how to improve
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those relationships, and how to think the best of others and ourselves. While Father Martin's advice
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is obviously given in the context of Christian faith, he's a Catholic priest after all, non-believers
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will also find plenty of insights in this show. After it's over, check out the show notes at
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aom.is slash Jesuit. Father Martin joins me now via clearcast.io.
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So you wrote a book, The Jesuit's Guide to Almost Everything. And what you look at is
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you use sort of a layman's explanation of the Jesuit order and their philosophy and their
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Ignatius. All right, Ignatius. So in St. Ignatius has a really interesting story.
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Tell us about him and how he started the Jesuit order.
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Sure. Well, he was born in 1491 in the Basque country of Spain, and he started out as a page
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to a knight and then became a soldier. It was kind of vain. He describes himself in his own
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autobiography as vain. He was very concerned with his hair, by the way. He kept talking about
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that. And he is injured in a battle in 1521 in Pamplona, and that sort of prompts him to
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reconsider his life. He ends up recuperating and reading books about Jesus and about the saints.
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And he starts to have these experiences in prayer, which make him realize that the sort of former
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way of life that he was leading, trying to impress people and kind of doing great deeds, was not as
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satisfying as trying to live a holy life. And that leads him to, through a number of twists and turns,
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down what's called the Society of Jesus, or religious order, better known as the Jesuit. So
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that's a kind of thumbnail version of his life. He was a pretty headstrong guy. And the old joke in
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the Jesuits is it took a cannonball to kind of turn his life around, which is how he got injured.
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Yeah. And it's funny, his vanity, another instance of his vanity was his, you know,
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hit his leg or something. And he was worried about how his leg would look in stockings.
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So he wanted to do the surgery, and it just messed it up even more.
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Yeah. They, you know, the tights of the time, I guess, showed off your legs, I guess. And
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he had the surgery done, as you were saying, you know, after the cannonball hit him.
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And it wasn't good enough. There was a little bone protruding. And so without anesthesia,
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he had the doctor, you know, I think saw the bone off, you know, which I can't imagine how
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painful that must have been. You know, and the reason he puts that in the book is to show you
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how vain he was and to kind of say that he was a sort of a slave to his own appearance. Later on,
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he decides, you know, he needs to move away from that. He lets his hair grow long and his
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fingernails grow. And he even says, well, that doesn't make sense either. So he,
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because it sort of scares people. So he opts for a kind of moderation. And that's a very
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Jesuit thing to do, kind of, you know, whatever, whatever works best in the situation.
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You also have an interesting story. How did you find your way into the priesthood?
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Yeah, I went to the Wharton School of Business at Penn, graduated in 82, and then worked for six
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years in corporate America at GE, and really just found myself sort of miserable and
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not in the right place, square peg in a round hole. And I came upon a book by a guy named Thomas
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Merton, who's a Trappist monk. And that got me thinking about doing something different. And funny
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enough, to answer your question, the Jesuits, I knew nothing about the Jesuits. I mean, you know,
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most Catholics know them for their schools like Georgetown and Fordham and BC. The old joke is,
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you know, we started schools so they could win basketball scholarships and tournaments,
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Gonzaga, places like that. But I knew nothing about them. And someone suggested them as
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being kind of congenial to me. And I, you know, took my look and thought, this is it. This is for
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me. They're very, it's a very kind of accessible and friendly spirituality. And the guys I met were
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just great and funny and smart and hardworking. And yeah, it was a good fit. So I entered 30 years
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It did not. Although, you know, the job at GE was sufficiently difficult, not in terms of doing
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it, but just, you know, my kind of distaste for it. And I started to get stress-related illnesses
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and headaches and migraines. And so a different kind of cannonball. I mean, just a kind of
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miserable life situation that prompted me to be more open. I think God really can enter into your
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life a little bit more when you're vulnerable. That doesn't mean God kind of punishes us and
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makes us sick or something like that. But, you know, when I was kind of down and out and feeling,
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you know, like I didn't know where to go, my defenses were down. And I think God was able to
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So let's talk about Ignatian spirituality and how sort of his philosophy. There's four tenets,
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Well, they're four of my tenets, I would say. First is finding God in all things. And that means that
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God is not just confined to the walls of a church or in scripture, you know, or in sort of personal
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prayer. But, you know, God can be found in, you know, your relationships, in work, in music,
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in your family. And it's a very broad-minded spirituality. Second is this notion of being
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a contemplative in action, which means that, you know, most of us, and I would bet most people
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are listening to this podcast, are pretty busy people. And none of us are monks. Very few of us are
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monks. But can you have a kind of contemplative stance in the world, where you're looking at
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things in a contemplative way and you're not going, you know, running from place to place
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without any sort of reflection? That's another tenet. Third, it's incarnational, which means
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that it trusts that God is kind of present. And, you know, in terms of Jesus, that Jesus
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became, you know, God became human in Jesus. And there's a kind of comfort in that and an
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ability to really connect with Jesus and connect with God. And then fourth, I would
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say it's freedom. That's a really important thing for a lot of people these days. Freedom
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and detachment. So for a lot of people who don't know Ignatian spirituality, it's very
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similar to Buddhism, the sense of detachment and freedom. And you're not so attached to
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something that you can't respond to God's will. You know, funny enough, I think if I
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were to do it again, I'd just say three tenets. Because the incarnation and finding God in
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all things are kind of close. But hey, you know, my book's not perfect.
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Right. And that freedom and detachment, we'll talk a little about that later, reminded me
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A little bit. I think the difference between Ignatian spirituality or more broadly Christian
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spirituality and Stoicism is that it has an object. And so the freedom is freedom for
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something. And the freedom for is, you know, responding to kind of God's voice in your
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life. Whereas Stoicism, I think it's less, I mean, from what I remember about my philosophy
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courses, you know, it's not connected to God per se. But there are many overlaps between
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Ignatian spirituality. And again, I read like Marcus Aurelius, and it's very similar.
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So this book you wrote, The Jesuit's Guide to Almost Everything, I mean, you're coming
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at it from a Catholic perspective, from your background as a Jesuit. But what's interesting,
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I've been reading the reviews about it, that people of all faiths and backgrounds, and even
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people who aren't religious or don't even believe in God, they've gotten something out
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of it. I mean, what do you think it is about the principles of Ignatian spirituality that makes it
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so attractive or useful to people from all walks of life?
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Well, for one thing, Ignatius himself dealt with people from all walks of life. And so it was not
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someone who was just dealing with, you know, people in a monastery or sisters. He dealt with
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people who were, you know, during the 16th century working and politicians and, you know, even royalty.
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And so he wanted to make it accessible. But really, it's that finding God in all things that
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I think really appeals to people. And even people who are seeking and agnostic or atheists, there's
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a sense that Ignatian spirituality meets people where they are, which is what I try to do in the
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book. But, you know, even if you don't believe in God, I have, you know, plenty of friends who are
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agnostic and atheists. I think they like the idea of freedom. I think they like the idea of being able
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to, for example, review your day in a prayer called the examine or the examination of conscience.
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So there's a lot you could, there's, there's a whole chapter on decision-making, which is
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very helpful for a lot of people. So, you know, I wrote it for everybody basically. And obviously
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as a Jesuit, I want people to come to God and, you know, move closer to Jesus. But I recognize that
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that is not where everybody is, you know, at the moment.
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So, yeah, let's talk about some of these practices. You mentioned the examination of conscience or
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the examine. What is the purpose of this exercise and what are the steps and
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how can it be modified for people depending on their spiritual background or lack of it?
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Sure. Well, the examine is basically a prayer that helps you review the day and see where
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God is active. I think if you're not religious, it could probably function as a review and a
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kind of self-examination, you know, which is certainly valuable. But it really, I think,
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to be fully appreciated needs to be understood in the context of our relationship to God. So
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what is it? Basically, you start off with placing yourself in God's presence. Okay. So just,
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you know, you would do this maybe at the end of the day for 15 minutes. And by the way, if you go
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online, we have examined podcasts at America that help you lead people through it. It's a little
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easier if you're being led through it. Anyway, so you put yourself in God's presence. Remember that
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it's not just you sort of plowing through the day, remembering things. Second, you call to mind
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anything you're grateful for, right? And you call to mind, St. Ignatius says you savor it almost like
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you're savoring a good meal or a fine wine. So that could be big things. You know, you got a
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promotion, you got engaged, bought a new car, something like that. Or it could be small things.
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You heard from a friend of yours that you hadn't heard from for a while. You, you know, went out with
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a friend for a beer. Your favorite sports team, you know, won the World Series, you know, the Super Bowl,
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as mine did recently. And you sort of savor these things and give thanks to God. You just, thanks,
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thanks for, you know, a great thing happening today. And the reason you do that is because we
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are generally problem solvers and we move on to the problems very quickly. So Ignatius wants to ground
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you. The next step is your view of the day, start to finish. And you try to see where God has been
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active. You know, where did you notice God's presence? Where was God active? Where did you turn away
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from God? And that leads you to sorrow for your sins or your limitations. There's a sense of just
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you know, being open about your limitations and your failings and your sinfulness. And then
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last stage is you ask for the grace to see God in the next day. It's a very simple prayer. It takes
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about 15 minutes at the end of the day, which is when most people like to do it. But it really gets
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your spiritual house in order because I think it's a lot easier to see where God was than to see where
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God is, frankly. Yeah, that's interesting. And as I was reading that, I thought it was kind of
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saying Ignatius was sort of ahead of his time is that you see, you know, psychologists,
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positive psychology saying, basically kind of giving people like, you should do this,
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like show that you're, you know, think about what you're grateful for, review on how you can
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improve yourself and et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, no, he's, I mean, he is a brilliant
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psychologist, frankly. He understands how the human mind works and not only from going through
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tough times in his own life, but really counseling other people. He's also great at helping people
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sort of sort through, you know, where different feelings are coming from and what's leading you to
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something healthy and what's leading you to something unhealthy. It really is. He's kind of a
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master psychologist. And I, I found that Ignatius spirituality has really, I mean, that's kind
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of an understatement has really not only changed my life, but helped me as a, just as a human being
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sort of live a happier life and a more fulfilling life. And that's, those are some of the things I
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wanted to communicate in the book to everybody. Yeah. And speaking of, you know,
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seeing Ignatius as the psychologist, he devotes a lot of time to desires and thinking about your
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desires. What's going on there? Because I mean, why he says you should pay attention to your desires.
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What does he mean by that? Because when I think, I think when most people hear desire, they think
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I desire food, I desire sex, I desire all these other things that aren't that great. So what is
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he talking about when he's talking about desires? Yeah. Although I should say there's nothing wrong
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with, you know, food and sex and clothing and things like that. I think what he's talking about are,
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you know, the deep desires that lead us to know what God wants for us. And, you know, it's a very,
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it's a very basic thing. So how does God call us to things? Okay. So if you want to talk about,
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say something like marriage, right. Or, you know, falling in love, well, you know, God calls us
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through physical attraction, spiritual attraction, emotional attraction. And most people who are
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religious and are, you know, married or in love would say, you know, I think God called us together.
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Well, that's how it works. You know, God calls us to our different vocations through what we're
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interested in. Right. I mean, you desire to, for, for, you know, you desire to start this podcast.
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There's a reason that you're excited about it, that you're interested in it. And this is one way
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that God calls us to do the things we're meant to do. And then on a more fundamental level,
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God calls us through our desires to be the kinds of people we're meant to be. So if you, I, and I bet
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most of the people listening have a desire or an image in their minds of the person that they want
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to become. Okay. Like more loving, more charitable, more relaxed, freer, less bothered by things. And I
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would say that that image and that desire is one way that God calls us to be that kind of person,
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right? I mean, how else would God work? So, so there's a sense that if you, if you pay attention
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to your desires and your deepest desires, and you can discern which are kind of surface desires,
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you know, like I want a new PC and which are the deep desires, it really can help you move towards
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the person that God wants you to be. And it's, it's, it's, it's very freeing. And I think, you know,
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people have been told for so long not to pay attention to their desires that when they hear
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this, it, it kind of clicks. Makes sense. Well, what do you do about those? You know,
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you talk about those higher level desires of being charitable, for example. So you might desire that,
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but then like you don't desire to do the thing, like the, the, the things that you have to do to
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be charitable. What, what do you, how do you learn to want to, to want that thing that you know is good
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for you? What a great question. You know, that's exactly what St. Paul said. He said, I, I,
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I don't do the good that I want to do. I do the bad that I don't want to do. But, and yeah,
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I think first of all, by recognizing that it is a call, that it's not simply, oh, you know,
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I have this interesting feeling to help that homeless guy. I mean, that it is in fact coming
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from God and that God's going to help you. So if you decide that you want to live a more charitable
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or peaceful or loving life, you know, this sort of feeling that that's what, what, what's being asked
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of you to remember that first of all, it's a call. So to sort of reverence it in that way,
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it's not just some, you know, you know, just a sort of fleeting feeling you have. Second,
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that God's going to help you, right? I mean, why wouldn't God want to help you sort of live
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more charitably? And frankly, third, that it might take some time before it feels natural,
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you know, fake it till you make it, right? I mean, it may feel strange to be, to start to be
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forgiving and let go of grudges and be more, more charitable, but that's okay. Because to,
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to trust that, that God is on your side and that God knows what's best for you. I often use the
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example of, this usually helps people. If you have like some injury and you go to a physical
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therapist, right? And the PT guy says, all right, what I want you to do is walk around on your foot
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in this particular way. Now, at the beginning, it might feel painful, but you know, you trust the
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guy because he, you know, he's a PT guy and you will continue to do it because you trust it.
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You know, it's good for you. And you know, that this guy has the best in mind for you. So that,
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that's the idea that you, you, you follow these desires because you know where they're coming from
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and you know that they're going to lead to your good and everybody else is good for that matter
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too. Well, another thing you talked about sort of related to desires is this idea of disordered
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attachments. What are those and how do they mess up people's lives? What Ignatius calls,
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it's kind of a strange phrase, what Ignatius calls a disordered attachment, or you can also say an
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unfreedom is anything that keeps you from becoming the person you want to be or the person that
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God wants you to be and responding to, you know, God's will in your life. So for example,
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if you're so attached to something that you can't be a loving person, then it's disordered.
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The best example is, let's say you're in the hospital, right? And you know, you're a good
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friend of mine and I want to visit you, but I say to myself, oh my gosh, if I go to the hospital,
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I'm going to get sick because there's all these sick people in the hospital.
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Well, Ignatius would say, you are so attached to your own health or your own desire for perfect
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health that it's disordered. It's actually preventing you from being a good friend, right?
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From being a good human being. So he would say, you need to really look at that and you need to
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kind of free yourself of those disordered attachments. And we all have them. We all have
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those unfreedoms in our life. If you're so attached to status and power and money that you can't be a good
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person, then that is a disordered attachment and you need to let go of it. It's hard to do, but
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it's essential. Right. There's that Buddhist sort of connection there a bit.
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Yeah, sure. This sense of being free and not being tied down.
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Did Ignatius have any practices to help you, I don't know, get over these disordered attachments
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or do the things you know you should do? Did he have any mental or spiritual exercises he suggested?
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He did. And one of them is called agere contra. Agere means to act and contra is obviously against.
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And he means to start doing it even though it feels like it's unnatural. To act against your natural,
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for example, selfish desire. So for example, when I was a Jesuit novice, I was very concerned with my
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health and I said to my novice director, well, the last thing I want to do for my ministry is work in
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the hospital. He said, why not? And I said, well, I don't want to get sick and kind of grossed out
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around people who are sick and all the sights and smells and sounds. And he said, well, good. Well,
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you'll be working in a hospital. And that wasn't to punish me. That wasn't to make me feel bad about
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myself or to put me in my place. It was agere contra. It was to act against your natural
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inclination in order to free yourself up. And so when I went in and spent, gee, a couple months
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there, you know, working in a hospital for seriously ill patients, this was in Cambridge,
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Mass. It did. It freed me of that. And also what kind of a Jesuit or priest would you be if you
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could never go into a hospital? So that's agere contra. That's working against or acting against
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your natural desire or your natural inclination if it's an unhealthy inclination or desire.
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So the unhealthy inclination was to only, you know, care for my own health.
00:20:23.700
And I think this was your, I don't know if this was Ignatius, but one that really hit home to me was
00:20:27.960
act like your best self would. Yeah, that's actually my, that's my addition to Ignatius.
00:20:34.460
Right. I like to say to people, imagine, and this is also a good decision-making tool,
00:20:40.540
imagine the person that you really want to become. So I think we all, as I mentioned earlier,
00:20:45.360
we all have an idea of the person we'd like to be in like five years, you know, 10 years.
00:20:48.840
It's especially true for young people. If you're like right out of college, you know, yeah, okay,
00:20:53.540
this is the kind of person I want to be. Or you see someone, you say, boy, I'd like to be like that
00:20:57.360
guy. You know, he's so kind and he's so nice and he's so confident, whatever. And the trick I think
00:21:03.780
is to say to yourself, all right, in this particular situation, within this decision-making time,
00:21:11.200
what would my best self do? And it's very clarifying. Can I give you an example?
00:21:16.680
Yeah, please. A good friend of mine's father died a few years ago. Very good friend of mine,
00:21:21.660
a Jesuit. And the funeral was in upstate New York in Buffalo, as I recall. And I was very busy and
00:21:29.160
there was this snowstorm coming and it was really kind of a tough week. And I didn't quite know what
00:21:34.600
to do. It was very hard for me to figure out the right thing to do. You know, on one hand,
00:21:38.700
I'd work and the other hand, I had all sorts of, you know, desires to be with my friend.
00:21:42.340
And so in any event, I went back and forth, you know, what's the right thing to do?
00:21:46.600
And finally, I used that tool. I said to myself, what would my best self do? And I tell you,
00:21:52.360
within a second, I realized, oh, he'd go. I mean, you know, my best self, the person I want to be,
00:21:58.560
would go to his friend's father's funeral. No question. Like, just like that, it came.
00:22:03.320
And so I did, and I was very happy I did. So what would your best self do and do it?
00:22:07.600
Yeah. What I like about that is that it gets, it makes, so there's that whole fake it till you
00:22:11.860
make it and people feel phony, but that think, I'm thinking about what your best self would do
00:22:16.540
sort of reduces that cognitive dissonance. Cause you're like, oh, this is me. Like,
00:22:20.740
this is what I want. This is what I would do. That's exactly right. And it's okay to feel like
00:22:24.740
it's unnatural. I mean, of course it's going to feel unnatural if you've been acting a particular
00:22:28.860
way and you're changing your life that, you know, it's like going to the gym for the first time.
00:22:33.400
If you've never been, it's going to feel odd. You're going to feel funny in those clothes. And maybe
00:22:37.440
you're self-conscious, but eventually it'll, it'll just kick in and you'll feel comfortable
00:22:41.640
there that I think the fact that it feels unnatural is not a reason not to do it. And it's, it's okay
00:22:46.880
to, to admit that and to say, you know, I'm trying something new, but I know that this is going to
00:22:51.080
help. So one of the things Jesuits do, like a lot of other orders is they take a vow of poverty.
00:22:58.840
Well, the real purpose of the vows, which is poverty, chastity and obedience is to follow Jesus. So
00:23:04.000
Jesus lived poor. I mean, we know that chaste, he didn't get married and obedient, you know,
0.95
00:23:08.760
to, to the father's will. So that's the main reason, but it also is very freeing. You know,
00:23:13.900
I don't own anything. I don't, everything I get from my books and salary, I work at a Catholic
00:23:18.500
magazine goes to my Jesuit community. It's very freeing. I don't have to worry about, you know,
00:23:24.920
my next job, even if you will call it that, you know, we have, we have ministries in the Jesuits
00:23:29.480
and it's, it's just great. I love it. You know, the society of Jesus, the Jesuits take care of
00:23:34.860
me. I mean, I, as we say, three hots and a cot and, you know, anything that I would need in terms
00:23:39.520
of clothes and things like that. But that is for me, the easiest vow. I mean, I, when I worked at GE,
00:23:44.300
I was doing pretty well. I was making a good salary and, you know, I had a lot of suits and a lot of
00:23:49.260
stuff and a car. And I love not having a lot of things. I really do. It's, I mean, a friend of mine
00:23:55.840
came into my room the other day and said, you know, I have books and clothes and stuff, obviously.
00:24:00.300
He said, where's all the rest of your stuff? I said, that's it. It's great. It's very,
00:24:05.800
you feel very light. So that's the, and it's also a way to identify with the poor. We don't live,
00:24:10.860
you know, like homeless people, but we live very simply. And we try to identify with people who are
00:24:15.920
poor, which is what Jesus did. He tried to live simply and, and, and his first, you know,
00:24:24.040
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00:26:04.520
So how can ordinary people, I don't know, live this idea of, you know, poverty or simplicity without
00:26:11.120
having to become a, you know, a monk or whatever? Sure. Yeah. Most people aren't going to become monks
00:26:17.060
by trying to live simply and looking at what you have with a critical eye and saying,
00:26:22.200
do I really need this? You know, at GE of all places to learn spiritual advice, we used to talk
00:26:27.060
about nice to have and need to have. I mean, you know, how many sweaters do you need, right? How
00:26:33.000
many sneakers do you need? Do you really need all that stuff? And can you get rid of them? And people
00:26:37.580
always feel better when they do spring cleaning, when they get rid of a lot of crap. And then to also say
0.62
00:26:42.740
that it, it's better to give it to the poor. One of the great lines from a Catholic saint,
00:26:47.880
St. Francis de Sales, I think, said, that extra coat in your closet doesn't belong to you.
00:26:53.180
It belongs to the poor. So there's also a sense of giving away, not only for your own sense of
00:26:58.620
freedom, but for the poor. And going back to this idea of, you know, one of the big overarching themes
00:27:04.200
in Ignatian spirituality is moderation. So, I mean, it seems like he was not keen on taking poverty
00:27:11.560
to the extreme. No, he wasn't. And he learned that early on in his life when we mentioned,
00:27:17.960
you know, his sort of attention to his appearance. And at one point he let his hair grow long and he
00:27:23.500
let his fingernails grow long. He said, I'm not going to take care of my health. I'm not going to
00:27:26.760
eat well. I'm going to eat like a hermit. And it really screwed up with his health or screwed up his
0.99
00:27:32.040
health. And he realized that that's not going to help him work. I mean, he needed to kind of have
00:27:37.300
a certain amount of health. So he tried to have things in moderation. And so the Jesuits, we don't
00:27:42.180
live like homeless people. We don't live like hermits. We have houses. We have, you know, beds and
00:27:47.720
clothes and food and things like that in order to help us do our work. It's a very practical
00:27:52.100
spirituality. Now, that might be different than Francis of Assisi, right, who did live extremely simply
00:27:58.040
and didn't want his brothers to have, you know, even a house. But for Ignatius, his way of
00:28:03.380
discerning was that if we just, you know, try to live simply and do things in moderation, it's a lot
00:28:08.560
better for helping us do our work. So Ignatius also had a lot to say about not just our relationship
00:28:14.320
to God, but also about our relationship to other people. And so I think that was some of the most
00:28:21.020
interesting and probably useful things I got out of the book was our friendships and relationships.
00:28:25.660
Yeah, thanks. Well, we Jesuits take a vow of chastity, which means we don't get married,
00:28:31.400
we don't have sex, we don't have what we call exclusive relationships. And that means that
00:28:35.920
it's a different way of loving. It's a way of loving people, you know, deeply, but also freely.
00:28:41.280
So a lot of it relies on friendships, very deep friendships. And I talk in the book about
00:28:45.600
the value of having close friends and what it means to be a good friend and what it means to
00:28:51.740
sort of celebrate your friendship. So, you know, the way of chastity and the way of St. Ignatius
00:28:56.660
is not about, you know, just like being in your room all night and just, you know, kind of staring
00:29:01.460
at the TV because you don't have anyone in your life. It's about celebrating your friends and really
00:29:07.880
loving them deeply and seeing in that love an expression of God's love. So that too can be very
00:29:14.480
freeing. I often tell people, I certainly miss, you know, one-on-one intimacy and sex and exclusivity in that
00:29:21.380
way. But I have a ton of friends and I, this is not better or worse. I just simply have more time
00:29:27.180
for them than people who are married. I just do. I mean, that's, you know, that, that, that would
00:29:32.400
make sense, I think, to most people. And so to have these great friends who you can love freely and
00:29:38.020
deeply is really a blessing. And I think part of the book is to remind people of the value of
00:29:42.500
friendships, even people who are married, right? I mean, this is not just for single people or
00:29:47.300
celibate people or chaste people. It's for people who are married too, because we tend to overlook
00:29:51.520
that. We tend to overlook the value of friendship and that kind of love in our, in our society.
00:29:58.020
Well, one overarching principle for friendship in all relationships that Ignatius taught was
00:30:02.280
something called the presupposition. What is that principle and how can it improve relationships?
00:30:07.180
Yeah, that can improve relationships. I think it can improve our country too, especially right now.
00:30:11.220
The presupposition is something that he began what's called his spiritual exercises with,
00:30:16.320
which is his great manual on prayer. And he said, basically, it's giving people the benefit of the
00:30:21.240
doubt. And so if someone says something that you don't understand or don't agree with, you ask them
00:30:25.360
what they mean by it. And if you still don't understand, you give them the benefit of the
00:30:29.680
doubt. You presume that the person is trying to act on his or her best interests and you don't
00:30:35.620
critique them without listening to them. And, you know, boy, just go on social media or Twitter or
00:30:40.460
Facebook or even Instagram and you can see people not giving one another the benefit of the doubt.
00:30:45.240
I mean, always taking someone's words and twisting them or assuming the worst. And
00:30:50.160
it's interesting that, for me at least, that that is the beginning of his classic text on
00:30:56.240
the spiritual life, which is, you know, it's not some footnote. That is sort of front and center.
00:31:01.180
Give people the benefit of the doubt. As we say in the Jesuits, give them the plus sign.
00:31:05.480
And it's really, you know, it frees you up from a lot of grudges and resentment and,
00:31:09.980
you know, kind of ridiculous anger that has nothing to do with the reality of the situation.
00:31:15.480
It's just your interpretation of it. And it frees the other person, you know, it just lets them be
0.77
00:31:19.700
who they are. So I find that really helpful. So yeah, the presupposition is key for Ignatian
00:31:26.620
spirituality. I wish more people in our political system used it too.
00:31:30.260
Yeah, no, I, I've, that would hit home hard for me because I often, because it's so easy to do
00:31:34.500
when someone like a friend, say, snubs you or forgets you and you think, oh, you just think
0.99
00:31:39.880
what a jerk. He's so thoughtless when you think, well, no, he's probably like really busy. He's got
0.99
00:31:44.960
something going on in his life. So assume that instead of assuming the worst.
00:31:48.300
Exactly. And, and, and they usually do. That's, that's the irony. When you dig a little deeper,
00:31:52.140
you find that, you know, people who are in those situations do, you know, are struggling,
00:31:56.380
you know, that old thing about be kind to people, everybody's fighting their own battle. I'm sure
00:32:00.520
you've heard that expression. There's a little of that, you know, if someone snaps at you or,
00:32:06.000
you know, shoves in front of you on the subway, I live in New York, you know, can you say, boy,
00:32:09.820
this person, yeah, maybe they have a really, maybe they're rushing to visit, you know, their
00:32:13.480
husband in the hospital, right? I mean, instead of like punching them in the face or wanting them to
00:32:17.660
die, you, you say a prayer for that person. And it's, it's much, it's, it's a much better way to
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00:32:23.540
live. And it really frees you of a lot of really unnecessary anger. Now that's not to say that
00:32:29.020
people, you know, aren't, you know, intentionally mean to us from time to time, but most of the time
00:32:33.680
it's not intentional and it's, it's good to give them the plus sign as we say.
00:32:37.700
So, you know, going back to that idea of being disappointed in our friends for not being better
00:32:41.600
friends for X, Y, or Z reason, what do you think, or what does Ignatius think is really behind
00:32:47.060
these disappointments? Is it, I mean, is it because we're thinking of people as things that
00:32:53.280
they're there to satisfy us and our needs and our desires?
00:32:55.980
I think that's part of it, that we look at people as functional and they should be satisfying our
00:33:01.360
desires. There's a sense of, I'd say not all the time, but there's, there can be a sense of
00:33:06.340
selfishness that I need to be at the center of everybody's life. And there's also a sense of
00:33:11.000
proportion that, you know, not everybody can always be attentive to you and can always be at your
00:33:16.680
beck and call and it's loving your friends as they are. So I'll tell you a funny story. One of
00:33:22.020
my best friends is terrible at keeping in touch. Just absolutely awful. I mean, you know, I'll text
00:33:28.600
him and I'll be like, yes, no. And he, and I asked him once, he said, I just, I don't like texting.
00:33:34.800
I don't like talking on the phone a whole lot. I love, you know, being together and, you know,
00:33:38.940
we take vacations together and we, you know, we have tons of fun. We're together. So what's the
00:33:43.360
point of this long story? The point is I need to let my friend be who he is, right? I mean,
00:33:48.820
I, I need to love him as he is, not as I would want him to be. You know, the person who calls me
00:33:53.360
every week religiously or texts me or, and we've talked about it. I said, you know what? He said,
00:33:58.320
that's just the way I am. I just, I don't like going on the phone. I don't like, I've never have
00:34:02.960
ever since I was little, that's who he is. So can I love him like that and not demand that he be the
00:34:08.500
kind of friend that I want or think I need? And boy, I tell you, once you free yourself of,
00:34:13.440
of that, you free yourself of the desire to sort of make people in your own image, it's, it's,
00:34:19.080
your life is a lot more pleasant. What does Sydney say about keeping friendships and nurturing them
00:34:24.560
when we're so busy and mobile? I mean, you, you're, you're not married, so you have more time for
00:34:29.120
friends, but you're also very busy because you're doing lots of stuff. So what are your insights about
00:34:33.020
that? Well, it takes work. I think that's one of the most important things. They, they don't just
00:34:37.600
happen, you know, I mean, friendships develop organically, but to keep them alive, it's like
00:34:42.420
a garden. I mean, you have to water them and nourish them and nurture them. So that, that means
00:34:46.500
time with people and attention and sacrificing your time and, and really wanting the best for them.
00:34:52.760
So I think it's really important to say that, you know, even with distance, it requires, it requires
00:34:58.860
some energy and some effort, but it's worth it. Ignatius has an expression called union of hearts and
00:35:04.240
minds and that, you know, the Jesuits, especially early on when there were a few of them and they
00:35:08.840
were all over the globe, you know, people like St. Francis Xavier, who was in India and Africa and
00:35:13.360
China, you know, they, they kept in touch with letters. That was the way that they did it back then.
00:35:18.240
And now you can talk about, you know, obviously email and texts and things like that, but it requires
00:35:23.860
one-on-one time, it requires FaceTime. And that's, that's an investment in friendship. You know, we invest in
00:35:29.280
our jobs and in our careers, we would say, Oh, of course, you know, I'll take this time out to
00:35:33.160
get an MBA or, you know, work overtime because I really, my career is really important to me,
00:35:37.600
which is true and great. Or I will, you know, sacrifice myself for my family. Well, it's also,
00:35:43.380
you need to, in a sense, do this kind of same kinds of things for relationships in your life and
00:35:47.960
friendships in your life. Or you'll find, since we're talking about the art of manliness, you know,
00:35:52.160
like a lot of guys, you know, who are out of school for a couple of years and married, they,
00:35:56.600
their friendships atrophy. I'm sure you know that. And yeah, it's just, it's, and a lot of my guy
00:36:02.760
friends, you know, say, you know, how do you, how are you able to keep up? You know, okay. One reason
00:36:06.580
is I'm not married, but another reason is, you know, I really, I'm very attentive to that. You
00:36:12.360
know, I really, I really sort of spend time develop, you know, basically, you know, calling them from
00:36:16.200
time to time and just keeping up. And that is a great, I'm sure, you know, that is a great sort of
00:36:21.780
sadness among a lot of married men that they don't, yeah. And so that's a, that's a real insight from
00:36:27.400
Ignatius, union of hearts and minds and really spending time on it. There's a practice you
00:36:32.240
mentioned that Jesuits use to build friendship called faith sharing. What, what is that?
00:36:36.320
Yeah, it's pretty great. We get together, depends on the group of guys, with my friends once a month,
00:36:42.180
and you talk about where God has been active in your daily life and in your prayer. Now, not everybody's
00:36:47.740
going to be able to do it in that way, you know, because they might not be religious or have
00:36:51.100
religious friends, but, you know, can you get together with your, your guy friends or, you
00:36:55.540
know, if you're, you know, female friends, it doesn't have to be just guys and talk about things
00:36:59.660
that I like to say are meaningful, significant, or important. That's a nice way to start off.
00:37:03.820
What's meaningful, significant, or important that's happened over the last month or a couple
00:37:08.020
of weeks. And it's really wonderful because not only from a religious point of view, do you
00:37:14.320
see how God is at work at each person's life, but it really helps you to, to, in a sense,
00:37:18.980
be compassionate to your friend. So let's, let's take an example. Let's say you have a
00:37:22.540
group of three or four guy friends that get together and one guy has been out of touch
00:37:27.660
or has been a little distant or aloof, and you don't really share with him on any sort
00:37:32.700
of deep level or you haven't for a while. And when he sits down and says, you know, I have
00:37:36.800
to tell you my, you know, my father's going through a cancer treatment or, you know, I'm
00:37:41.040
really struggling at my job. You have this sense of understanding him better such that you
00:37:46.600
can be a better friend to him, right? That doesn't have to happen in a group, but we
00:37:50.160
find it's, it's really helpful when it does happen in a group because there's something
00:37:54.600
about a group dynamic that, that when the person shares what's going on and people can
00:37:59.580
kind of respond in a gentle way, it also helps the person feel really supported too. So yeah,
00:38:04.380
face sharing is, is really important for personal support, but from a religious point of view,
00:38:09.340
it also helps to see where God has been at work. When it, when it's hard to see God at work
00:38:13.240
in your life, it's easier to see where God is at work in the other guy's life.
00:38:16.440
I'm sure that's hard for a lot of men to open up like that though, too.
00:38:19.260
Yeah, it is. Although, you know, it's funny. It is and it isn't. I was just on a pilgrimage
00:38:22.780
to the Holy Land just two weeks ago and we had a hundred people and, you know, they're religious,
00:38:28.520
of course, but a lot of the people who were on the trip, probably most of them were very
00:38:32.900
successful, fairly wealthy, you know, adult men. Okay. So it was men and women kind
0.52
00:38:39.480
of a mix. And, you know, you had like captains of industry to use that old fashioned term.
00:38:44.240
And when they got in a group and once one person opened up about, you know, the death of a child
00:38:49.960
and illness, divorce, it gave permission for the other guys to do it. And it gave permission
00:38:55.820
for people to be themselves and for people to talk about their desires and people to talk about
00:39:00.020
where God was in their lives. And so I'd say yes and no. I think that, you know, if it's done in a way
00:39:06.560
that I, that is, how would I say it? That's inviting. I think people respond to it because
00:39:12.320
I think there's a deep need and a deep desire for people to be known and for people to be open and
00:39:20.200
transparent. I really do. Would you agree? People want to be known. People want to be recognized.
00:39:25.960
Yeah. And they, and they, and I think, you know, you know, I mean, I think it'd be hard to do at a
00:39:29.420
bar, but you know, maybe in a different setting where people feel more comfortable. That's not,
00:39:34.360
by the way, that's not to say that those, those kinds of sharings don't happen at bars and places
00:39:38.060
like that, but I think to, to, to provide a space where people feel safe can be a real blessing for
00:39:44.180
people. Right. And like you said, it takes, it just takes one person and kind of going biblical.
00:39:48.000
It's like the leaven, right? Just like one little bit can just have a big effect. Yeah. And you know,
00:39:53.120
their truth begets truth. And I think that, and as they say, you know, heart speaks to heart too.
00:39:58.180
So there, there's a, there's a kind of recognition that, wow, we're all human. And, and I think that's
00:40:04.020
one of the lessons I learned when I was out of college that I think, you know, most of my colleges
00:40:07.340
were trying to be cool and looking like I was on top of everything. But, you know, once you're out
00:40:11.560
of college for some people earlier, you realize that everybody's struggling, everybody's kind of
00:40:15.940
facing their own battles and it's okay. And to be able to support one another means at the very first
00:40:24.700
So you mentioned, we talked about the vow of poverty. You hit on the vow of chastity. Another
00:40:29.060
vow that you take is the vow of obedience, but that's a, that's a virtue or an ideal that it's
00:40:34.640
pretty unpopular with the general public because when he's like, when you be obedient, it means
00:40:40.020
like you're a dog or it makes you think of not, you know, Nazis or whatever. Yeah. So how does
00:40:44.660
obedience work in the order and how do, how much say do Jesuits get as to where and what they are
00:40:50.080
assigned to? Yeah, that's a good question. I never thought of the Nazi analogy too, but that is a good
0.97
00:40:54.080
sort of negative view of obedience. It's obedience to God basically. And, you know, so it's trying to
00:41:00.840
understand where God's at work. And so one, one way of looking at obedience I talk about in the book
00:41:06.340
is, you know, my dad died in 2001 of cancer. And, you know, when the diagnosis was given to him and
00:41:14.960
to us and the family, you know, I had a choice, right? I could be a complete jerk and say, well, I'm not
0.99
00:41:21.260
going to really engage this. I'm not going to kind of enter into this, or I could be, this is where the
0.99
00:41:25.560
word comes and I could be obedient to what God wants me to do, which is to really be a good son
00:41:29.960
and to kind of step onto that path. And as a friend of mine likes to say, surrender to the future God
00:41:35.040
has in store for you. So it's that kind of obedience for the Jesuit. Obedience is obedience to
00:41:40.920
your religious superiors who, you know, ask you to do certain jobs. And the idea is that they would
00:41:46.100
have, you know, they're at a, the most, the highest level would be the head of all the
00:41:51.080
Jesuits in Rome, who has a better idea of, you know, what the needs of the church are than you
00:41:54.800
do, you know, me and my little office in New York. So if he would just say, Jim, hey, we need you to
00:41:59.840
do this job. The idea is that he has a better idea of where the greater needs are and also that God's
00:42:06.340
leading him. So it's that kind of obedience too. But really it's obedience to God. It's obedience to
00:42:12.000
what God wants. And yeah, it's not a, it's not a popular idea right now, but I think it's,
00:42:17.400
it's necessary because if you're in a sense disobedient to what God wants, then it's all
00:42:23.040
about you. Right. It's just like, I mean, let's say to use the example of my dad, right. Who died,
00:42:28.020
you know, let's say I were to say, yeah, I'm too busy to visit him. I mean, you know, that's a kind
00:42:32.840
of disobedience, right. That's kind of, that's a kind of freedom that I don't think, you know,
00:42:37.020
would be very helpful. I mean, you know, I could see a lot of people do that, you know, would say like,
00:42:40.780
you know, well, I'll leave it. I'm the, I'm no doctor, so I can't really help. Or yeah,
00:42:45.300
I don't want to get too sentimental because I don't know if I could go there or, or there's this
00:42:50.080
kind of, there's a kind of withdrawal from those difficult situations that I think we all feel we
00:42:55.240
don't want to do it, but that's the obedience. That's the hard obedience. And that's the kind of
00:42:59.900
stuff I talk about in the book. Well, what if, let's say your desires and the desires of your
00:43:04.840
superiors conflict, right? Let's say your superior says, this is what we need to do. But you're like,
00:43:09.380
no, I really feel like this is what I, what I should be doing. What happens there?
00:43:13.980
That happens fairly frequently and usually with assignments. So let's say, so here I am,
00:43:18.700
I work at America Magazine, a Catholic magazine. Let's say my superior says, well, you know,
00:43:23.240
Jim, you've been there 20 years now, you know, it was a good run. Now we need you to be pastor of
00:43:27.720
this church. Now I would, he would say, you know, go pray about it, see what comes up, you know,
00:43:33.420
sort of see what your desires are and where God might be leading you and how you feel about that.
00:43:37.900
You know, what does that, what does that do to you inside? And, and usually the Jesuit would come
1.00
00:43:42.840
back and say, yeah, okay. You know, that's, yeah, I think, you know, I think that makes sense. And I
00:43:47.260
trust that you're praying about this and that, you know, you've got my best interest at heart and
00:43:51.760
that you've got the best interest of, of, you know, the world and of God's people in the church at
00:43:56.320
heart. So yeah, I'll do it. Now, a lot of times, or maybe sometimes the guy would say, you know what,
00:44:02.040
I'm not feeling that. You know, I really, the last thing I want to do is be a pastor. I'm really not
00:44:08.100
good at organizing. I'm like terrible at whatever. The superior might say, okay, you know, thanks for,
00:44:14.680
that's, that's good. You know, maybe you're right. And I, I hear that. So, you know, stay in America.
0.56
00:44:19.000
Or he might say, yeah, you know what, we really need you. And that's where you would say, okay,
00:44:26.900
I guess I'm going. And the idea is again, that he has a better understanding in mind. Now for a lot
00:44:33.560
of people that seems like, oh my gosh, I could never do that. But that's what we do at work.
00:44:38.020
You know, I worked at GE for, for six years. And let me tell you, I'd a, I'd a hell of a lot less say
00:44:43.820
at GE about what I was going to do day to day than in the Jesuits. So I, I, I often talk about
00:44:50.300
obedience and remind people who are in the corporate world, like, you know, what do you do?
00:44:53.840
You know, you're, you're obedient to your boss. And, you know, it's often not a kind of communal
00:44:59.300
discernment as we say, but the, the ultimate obedience is really to God. Right. So, I mean,
00:45:04.980
for a regular person, I mean, what does that look like? It's just, it's, it's following those,
00:45:09.640
I don't know, those compunctures of conscience to do the right thing. Is that what it is?
00:45:14.680
I think that's part of it. I think the idea of surrendering to the future that God has in store
00:45:19.180
is really important. I think, you know, obedience, you know, it's easy to be obedient when something's
00:45:23.880
easy. Right. So let's say, you know, you get a promotion or you're, you're going to get married
00:45:28.940
or your wife's going to have a baby or whatever. I mean, you know, the obedience is, wow, you know,
00:45:33.240
I'm going to enjoy the new job and say yes to it and really jump into it, or I'm going to get married
00:45:38.400
and I'm going to really love it. So there is an obedience there. There's a kind of assent
00:45:42.880
to, to what's going on. That's, that's important. But the hard part is when it's suffering and that,
00:45:49.440
that's where the real obedience comes in. And that's really, I think the answer is your question,
00:45:53.460
which is to say yes to those things, even those things that you think are going to be difficult
00:45:58.960
because you feel that this is the right thing to do. So the example of going to my friend's father's
00:46:03.900
funeral, which was a small thing, but the big thing of, you know, really caring for my father
00:46:08.260
and entering into that, because I'm sure, you know, there's a way, I mean, wouldn't you agree?
00:46:12.240
There's a way of kind of standing at arm's length from some of those things.
00:46:16.100
Yeah. Like you can say, I'm not just, I'm just not going to engage it. I mean, it's just not going to,
00:46:19.920
and I know guys like that. It's just, I'm just, it's not, I'm just not going to enter into that.
00:46:24.180
And so the, the obedience is to say yes, to say yes to those things.
00:46:29.020
And then that requires too, to like be detached from outcomes or whatever.
00:46:34.880
That is exactly right. Or be detached from the need to, for example, I think one of the hard
00:46:39.920
things about, you know, when my dad died was I knew that, I mean, you know, I'm not an idiot. I
00:46:45.600
knew that it was going to be tremendously sad and difficult and frightening and disappointing and
00:46:52.820
confusing, you know, just to watch him go through the treatment and to help my mother and to eventually
00:46:58.640
prepare for the funeral. Right. Now there's a way, particularly with guys that we can say no to
00:47:06.000
that. Right. We can say no to that, to that reality and just distance ourselves and kind of close
00:47:13.680
ourselves down. And I know guys like this. They're just, they're not letting it in. They're not saying
00:47:19.640
yes to it. And it's on their terms. Right. I will. All right. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll go to the funeral,
00:47:26.200
but I won't, you know, I'm not going to go to see my hospital or I'm going to go to the hospital.
00:47:29.520
I'm just going to sort of keep myself at arm's length. So you're right. So the, the, the obedience
00:47:35.220
is saying yes to those things and, and doing the right thing. And even, you know, to, to your point
00:47:41.680
to say, even if it's something that I need to let go of, like my attachment might be to my own
00:47:47.400
sort of emotional equanimity, right? Like I don't like to cry or I don't like to feel out of control
00:47:52.820
or I don't want to be upset. And so that's a disordered attachment there. Right. So I'm not
00:47:58.580
going to let myself feel. See what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's the attachment.
00:48:03.860
The, you know, I don't want to be emotional and you have to let go of that in order to really enter
00:48:07.780
into the situation where you will find God. Well, Reverend Martin, this has been a great
00:48:12.900
conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book? Well, the Jesuit Guide to almost
00:48:16.820
everything is, is as they say, available where anywhere books are sold. I also have a Facebook page,
00:48:21.900
other father, James Martin, SJ, and I'm under Twitter and Instagram under James Martin, SJ. So
00:48:28.160
yeah, anywhere online, you can find information about the Jesuit Guide.
00:48:32.160
Fantastic. Well, Father James Martin, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.
00:48:35.480
My guest there is Father James Martin. He's the author of the book,
00:48:37.640
The Jesuit Guide to Almost Everything. It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.
00:48:41.360
Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash Jesuit. We can find links to resources. We can delve deeper
00:48:51.900
Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,
00:49:00.060
make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. If you enjoy the show,
00:49:04.000
I'd appreciate it if you give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher. And if you've done that already,
00:49:07.040
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00:49:10.240
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