The Art of Manliness - #397： Finding Fulfillment in a World Obsessed With Happiness

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00:01:07.380 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:01:26.540 In recent years, there's been a lot of books and blogs put out on how to become happier.

00:01:30.060 But what if searching for happiness actually results in unhappiness?

00:01:33.060 And to get happiness, we need to be looking for something else.

00:01:35.700 That's what my guest argues in her book.

00:01:37.260 Her name is Emily Esvani-Smith, and she's the author of the book,

00:01:40.000 The Power of Meaning, Finding Fulfillment in a World Obsessed with Happiness.

00:01:43.720 We begin our discussion today talking about the difference between happiness and meaning

00:01:46.700 and why the latter brings more fulfillment.

00:01:48.720 Emily then highlights research that shows more and more Westerners

00:01:50.980 are reporting if their life lacks meaning and theories as to why that is.

00:01:54.660 She then breaks down the three pillars of a meaningful life are

00:01:57.260 and what we can do to experience them.

00:01:59.100 Emily and I then discuss whether it's really possible to create meaning by yourself

00:02:02.380 and whether or not it requires being embedded in a religious or spiritual tradition.

00:02:05.940 After the show's over, check out the show notes at aom.is slash powerofmeaning.

00:02:09.820 Emily joins me now via clearcast.io.

00:02:26.960 Emily Esvani-Smith, welcome to the show.

00:02:29.500 Thanks for having me.

00:02:30.300 You wrote a book called The Power of Meaning,

00:02:33.380 where you look at the science, the latest research about what it means to live a meaningful life.

00:02:39.440 I'm curious, what got you started exploring the science of meaning?

00:02:43.800 So there's a long answer to that question and a short answer.

00:02:48.060 So the long answer is, I think, you know, for most of my life,

00:02:53.020 I've been interested in this question of meaning.

00:02:55.620 And it goes back to experiences that I had in my childhood.

00:03:01.500 So I was raised in Montreal, living in a Sufi meeting house.

00:03:09.980 And for those who might not know, Sufism is a school of mysticism that's associated with Islam.

00:03:18.120 So if you, the poet Rumi, many people have heard of, he was a Sufi.

00:03:22.960 The whirling dervishes were Sufis. 1.00

00:03:25.280 And living in the meeting house meant that twice a week, Sufis, these spiritual seekers, 1.00

00:03:31.080 would come to our home and they would sit on the ground and meditate for several hours.

00:03:36.120 They would tell stories from the lives of ancient Sufi saints and mystics.

00:03:42.360 And a central part of their practice was loving kindness,

00:03:46.520 a principle that's, of course, central to a lot of religious and spiritual paths,

00:03:51.320 and also service, so acts of charity.

00:03:55.500 And what was interesting about these Sufis was that, you know, 1.00

00:03:59.140 many of them had led really hard lives.

00:04:01.760 Some of them were refugees who had come to Canada or to the United States from the Middle East.

00:04:09.000 Others were Westerners who had been beaten up by life in other ways.

00:04:14.020 And in spite of the difficulties and the adversities,

00:04:18.520 they found meaning and comfort in this spiritual practice that was pretty demanding of them.

00:04:26.520 And I think growing up surrounded by people like that,

00:04:30.260 by people who always put others first,

00:04:32.360 who weren't so focused on themselves and their own desires,

00:04:36.620 left a mark on me.

00:04:38.980 And it stayed with me, you know, even after I left home and went to college.

00:04:44.320 But when I left home and I was kind of outside of that day-to-day experience of Sufism, 0.92

00:04:50.900 I started to wonder, you know,

00:04:53.920 what, is it possible to lead a meaningful life outside of a religious and spiritual context?

00:05:00.940 If you think about, you know, religion,

00:05:02.940 it gives clear answers to the question of, you know,

00:05:07.000 what is the meaning of life and how can I lead a meaningful life?

00:05:10.100 And that was certainly true of Sufism as well.

00:05:12.540 So outside of that, how do we find meaning?

00:05:15.980 And that question led me to studying philosophy

00:05:19.620 and eventually to studying positive psychology.

00:05:22.980 And this is where I get to the shorter answer to that question,

00:05:26.200 which is the science of positive psychology,

00:05:28.900 which is the study of well-being,

00:05:31.440 was starting to come out with some really provocative research

00:05:34.500 around the time that I was in graduate school,

00:05:38.520 showing things like the pursuit of happiness

00:05:41.880 is associated with being a taker rather than a giver.

00:05:46.140 And that if you kind of pursue happiness the way that our culture encourages us to do,

00:05:51.840 it can actually make you unhappy.

00:05:54.020 And so instead of pursuing happiness,

00:05:57.180 the research was kind of suggesting that we should be focusing on something else,

00:06:00.700 on living a meaningful life.

00:06:03.280 And then thinking back to the Sufis who I grew up with, 1.00

00:06:06.400 it kind of came together and made sense to me.

00:06:08.400 And so I started writing more about this.

00:06:10.340 And eventually one of my articles gave rise to the book that you mentioned,

00:06:15.560 and the power of meaning.

00:06:16.820 So let's talk about that difference between happiness and meaning.

00:06:20.840 Because as you said, yeah, in the past, I'd say, past decade,

00:06:23.560 there's been a lot of research coming out of positive psychology.

00:06:25.780 And there's been a lot of popular authors who have taken that research

00:06:29.420 and created, I don't know, you can call it a cult of happiness if you want.

00:06:33.640 There's lots of blogs, books, seminars, courses,

00:06:36.360 and all on how to be happy.

00:06:38.680 How are these folks defining happiness?

00:06:42.860 And how is that different from living a meaningful life?

00:06:47.600 Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.

00:06:49.280 There's definitely been this flourishing of happiness research,

00:06:55.120 happiness books in the last decade, even in the last two decades, I would say.

00:06:59.400 And I remember one of the statistics I came across showed that, you know,

00:07:03.680 there were several dozen books published a year on happiness back in the early 2000s.

00:07:08.720 And now there are several thousand books published each year.

00:07:11.680 So there's a real, you know, zeitgeist around happiness.

00:07:15.720 People are obsessed with it.

00:07:17.260 The research shows that it's our number one value.

00:07:19.760 It's what people want most in life.

00:07:21.320 It's what people think is the be all end all of life.

00:07:24.280 And that message really bothered me because there were so many people I knew in my life,

00:07:30.340 including the people I grew up with, the Sufis, who weren't focused on leading happy lives. 1.00

00:07:34.960 They were focused on leading a meaningful life instead.

00:07:38.340 And that gets to your question about what the difference is between these two.

00:07:41.640 So I would say I define happiness drawing on, you know,

00:07:46.660 how psychologists and philosophers define it,

00:07:50.040 which is as a positive mental and emotional state.

00:07:53.660 So if you feel good, you're happy.

00:07:56.080 If you feel bad, you're unhappy.

00:07:58.360 And I know that, you know, different people might say,

00:08:01.800 well, to me, happiness is actually a state of contentment or it's leading a meaningful life.

00:08:07.440 But I define it the way that the research defines it.

00:08:11.720 And I also think that in day-to-day conversation, colloquially,

00:08:15.960 in the way the media presents all of this happiness research,

00:08:19.840 that's the way that we define it culturally as well.

00:08:23.340 You know, if you think about all those articles about how to be happier,

00:08:26.460 they're always accompanied by this big yellow smiley face.

00:08:30.080 So I think just, you know, at its face value,

00:08:32.480 happiness really is kind of this positive emotion.

00:08:36.240 Meaning, though, is different.

00:08:38.480 And I would say it's bigger than happiness.

00:08:41.400 So leading a meaningful life,

00:08:43.300 the defining feature of that is connecting and contributing

00:08:47.360 to something beyond yourself,

00:08:49.920 something bigger.

00:08:52.100 And when people tell psychologists in research that their lives are meaningful,

00:08:57.620 it's because three conditions have been satisfied.

00:09:00.860 The first one is that they believe their lives have significance and worth.

00:09:06.240 In other words, they believe their lives matter.

00:09:08.480 The second one is that they believe they have a purpose.

00:09:12.740 So some goal or principle that is in the future

00:09:16.360 and that kind of propels them into the future.

00:09:19.980 And finally, they believe their lives are coherent.

00:09:23.540 In other words,

00:09:24.460 they don't think of their experiences as random and disconnected,

00:09:28.640 but those experiences make sense,

00:09:31.520 their lives make sense,

00:09:32.940 and life in general makes sense.

00:09:35.100 So it sounds like it's possible to have a meaningful life,

00:09:38.880 but not necessarily a happy one or vice versa.

00:09:43.180 No, I think that that's exactly right.

00:09:44.960 So it certainly may be the case that, you know,

00:09:47.680 you are leading a meaningful life and you're also happy

00:09:50.500 and that, you know, you have neither in your life,

00:09:53.740 that you're neither happy and that your life isn't meaningful.

00:09:56.200 But I think for most people, day to day,

00:09:58.980 you go through phases when, you know, you feel happy,

00:10:01.780 but your life doesn't necessarily feel meaningful.

00:10:03.820 If you think about, you know,

00:10:05.920 well, let's say your work is kind of not as high pressure

00:10:10.460 as it usually is.

00:10:12.380 And so you have more free time.

00:10:14.800 And in that free time, you're, you know, going to the gym,

00:10:18.660 you're going to the spa, you're going on vacation.

00:10:20.760 And so it's kind of a fun, happy life,

00:10:22.980 but those projects that gave your life meaning aren't there.

00:10:26.800 On the other hand,

00:10:27.740 you can also be leading a meaningful life

00:10:30.340 and not be happy.

00:10:32.620 And I think a really good example of that

00:10:34.600 is Viktor Frankl, the Holocaust survivor.

00:10:38.400 So he wrote this beautiful little book

00:10:41.020 called Man's Search for Meaning,

00:10:42.740 which is all about how some of the people

00:10:45.680 in the concentration camps,

00:10:47.500 despite how horrendous their circumstances were,

00:10:51.640 were still able to find meaning,

00:10:54.640 to have some sort of purpose that kept them going.

00:10:57.440 He gives the example of, you know,

00:10:59.820 one man who was suicidal

00:11:01.220 and he only kind of came out of his suicidality

00:11:05.360 by remembering that he had a son

00:11:08.000 who was living elsewhere safely

00:11:10.420 and that he needed to kind of fight for life

00:11:13.220 so that he could survive the war

00:11:15.160 and be reunited with his son afterwards.

00:11:18.860 Yeah, that's really interesting.

00:11:19.980 I think it's an important dichotomy.

00:11:21.140 And I think this is a research Roy Baumeister

00:11:23.820 been looking at the difference

00:11:24.940 between meaning and happiness.

00:11:26.260 And he's been a guest on the podcast

00:11:27.420 before a couple of times.

00:11:29.340 Okay, yeah, he's great.

00:11:30.460 His research is fascinating.

00:11:31.920 You highlight in the book that,

00:11:33.960 so meaning is important.

00:11:34.820 It gives us a sense of purpose.

00:11:36.500 But you highlight in the book

00:11:37.200 that more and more people today

00:11:39.560 are reporting a lack of meaning in their life.

00:11:42.700 Why is that?

00:11:43.460 Why are more modern people

00:11:44.680 saying their life doesn't feel meaningful?

00:11:47.060 If you think about what it is

00:11:49.460 that has historically given people's lives meaning,

00:11:53.360 it's things like religion and spirituality,

00:11:57.260 community, tradition,

00:11:59.920 your allegiance to a country,

00:12:03.020 the sense that there is a nation

00:12:05.840 that you feel loyal towards.

00:12:08.180 And those traditional sources of meaning,

00:12:11.180 I think, are increasingly receding

00:12:13.720 from public life.

00:12:15.040 They're no longer default paths to meaning.

00:12:18.140 I mean, certainly there are people

00:12:19.520 who still use them to find meaning.

00:12:22.100 But it used to be that

00:12:23.020 these were just kind of defaults,

00:12:25.220 you know, that you didn't really

00:12:26.440 have to think too much

00:12:27.360 about what made your life meaningful

00:12:28.980 because it was programmed

00:12:30.000 into how you lived your life,

00:12:32.380 the institutions that you interacted with.

00:12:34.900 And today, I think there's a lot of

00:12:36.960 disruption that's emerged

00:12:38.840 from the fact that

00:12:39.760 these traditional forms of meaning

00:12:41.260 are no longer at the center of our lives.

00:12:44.020 And I think we see that

00:12:46.520 in the rise of mental illness

00:12:49.860 in all kinds of ways.

00:12:51.880 I mean, depression has been rising for decades,

00:12:54.500 rates of anxiety and loneliness.

00:12:56.680 Of course, the opioid epidemic

00:12:58.320 is something we hear about

00:12:59.620 in the news all the time.

00:13:01.540 Even suicide rates have been rising for decades.

00:13:04.520 And a year or two ago in 2014,

00:13:08.060 or I think it was 2016,

00:13:09.780 the CDC released a report

00:13:12.640 showing that the suicide rate

00:13:14.800 in the United States

00:13:15.940 had reached a 30-year high.

00:13:18.280 And there's pretty interesting research

00:13:19.900 that shows that when you look

00:13:21.520 at all of these rising indicators

00:13:23.940 of mental health,

00:13:25.240 excuse me, of mental illness,

00:13:27.060 that what's predicting them

00:13:29.780 is the fact that people

00:13:31.420 feel their lives are not meaningful.

00:13:34.720 And so is this a problem

00:13:35.680 that's unique to the United States

00:13:37.120 or do other Western liberal democracies

00:13:39.480 also have this problem of,

00:13:41.160 this meaning crisis?

00:13:43.080 No, this meaning crisis,

00:13:44.660 I think it's a problem of modernity.

00:13:47.740 So any Western developed countries

00:13:52.160 or developed countries around the world,

00:13:54.480 think of Japan,

00:13:55.460 are also going through this meaning crisis.

00:13:58.620 And I think that it represents,

00:14:00.960 what's going on is that

00:14:01.980 there's kind of been a shift in values.

00:14:03.760 And there's a sociologist

00:14:05.580 at the University of Michigan

00:14:07.220 who runs a project

00:14:09.520 called the World Values Survey

00:14:11.360 that really dives into this.

00:14:14.340 And what he's found is that

00:14:15.940 as societies go through

00:14:18.620 different stages of development,

00:14:21.060 you know, from pre-developed to developed

00:14:23.400 to what he calls post-developed,

00:14:25.620 they have these shifts in values that occur.

00:14:28.500 So before you reach the stage

00:14:30.300 of being a developed country,

00:14:31.900 people are really focused on survival.

00:14:33.460 And the values that come with that.

00:14:35.360 In developed countries,

00:14:36.760 the set of values that arise

00:14:38.520 tend to be materialistic

00:14:40.480 and centered around self-advancement

00:14:43.060 and wealth and happiness.

00:14:47.020 You know, it's about me and how I feel

00:14:48.780 and this kind of hedonistic lifestyle.

00:14:52.060 And what's interesting is that

00:14:53.560 this sociologist,

00:14:55.240 his last name is Inglehart,

00:14:56.940 he's found that our Western countries,

00:15:01.140 even though we are in this state

00:15:03.860 of kind of, you know,

00:15:05.000 development-oriented values

00:15:06.800 that are more materialistic,

00:15:08.600 less spiritually fulfilling,

00:15:10.880 we're now shifting into post-development

00:15:14.180 where the values are much more anchored

00:15:16.560 around these spiritual, existential ideas

00:15:20.120 like meaning, like creativity,

00:15:23.100 like knowledge and curiosity.

00:15:24.540 And I think that we see signs of that shift

00:15:27.580 happening in our culture,

00:15:29.400 the way corporations, for example,

00:15:31.340 are all of a sudden reorienting their missions

00:15:33.920 around purpose,

00:15:35.420 how schools are starting to teach character,

00:15:37.980 things like that.

00:15:38.760 So let's talk about how institutions

00:15:42.820 within modern liberal democracies

00:15:44.900 are doing this,

00:15:46.420 but outside the confines of religion.

00:15:48.180 And even though religion does still play a role

00:15:50.000 that many people still find meaning in that,

00:15:51.900 let's talk about how it's looking now.

00:15:53.800 So you'd highlight that,

00:15:54.800 you argue there are certain pillars

00:15:56.360 that need to be in place

00:15:57.640 for meaning to exist.

00:15:59.320 And the first one is belonging.

00:16:01.700 Let's talk about the issue

00:16:02.720 of not feeling like you belong.

00:16:04.400 Because that's, like you mentioned earlier,

00:16:05.620 reports of isolation, loneliness are on the rise,

00:16:10.320 despite the fact that we're more connected than ever.

00:16:12.900 What do you think's going on there?

00:16:15.380 It's a really sad statistic.

00:16:17.580 And one of the saddest ones

00:16:19.860 that I write about in my book is,

00:16:22.140 you know, when researchers ask people

00:16:24.820 20, 30 years ago,

00:16:26.500 how many confidants do you have in your life?

00:16:29.400 How many people that you feel comfortable

00:16:31.240 talking to about the most important issues?

00:16:33.820 You know, decades ago,

00:16:35.960 several decades ago,

00:16:36.920 people said three people.

00:16:39.100 Today, when you ask that same question,

00:16:41.260 the most common response is zero.

00:16:44.160 And, you know, I mentioned the statistics

00:16:47.040 about rising rates of loneliness.

00:16:48.860 There's also a breakdown

00:16:49.700 in civic institutions and community.

00:16:52.320 People don't talk to their neighbors anymore.

00:16:54.700 And, you know, there's,

00:16:56.500 I think there are really interesting sociological reasons

00:16:58.780 that are driving this.

00:16:59.660 I remember reading a study several years ago

00:17:02.000 talking about the rise of urbanization

00:17:04.000 and how, you know,

00:17:05.640 a story that you can tell

00:17:07.280 about the United States

00:17:08.620 over the last 200 years

00:17:09.760 is the story of people moving

00:17:11.280 from more rural settings

00:17:12.960 to the big cities to find work

00:17:15.280 and to make a new home and a new life.

00:17:17.940 And what's accompanied that

00:17:19.280 has been a rise in individualism.

00:17:22.140 So, you know,

00:17:23.120 a shift in values

00:17:24.240 from community and duty

00:17:26.980 and responsibility

00:17:27.860 to, you know,

00:17:30.940 free expression,

00:17:32.940 self-esteem,

00:17:34.460 self-expression.

00:17:36.440 These are things that Roy Baumeister

00:17:37.880 writes about

00:17:38.940 and thinks about,

00:17:39.940 as I'm sure you know.

00:17:41.420 And so I think that

00:17:42.160 this rising individualism

00:17:43.660 that has these sociological causes

00:17:46.900 is one of the reasons

00:17:48.540 why we've seen this isolation

00:17:50.140 because individualism is great

00:17:51.960 and it comes with all kinds of benefits

00:17:54.260 like freedom and autonomy

00:17:56.240 and control over your personal life,

00:17:58.200 but it also divorces us

00:18:00.940 from that community

00:18:02.360 where we have this sense of belonging

00:18:05.360 that can ground us.

00:18:07.360 And, you know,

00:18:09.500 that's one of the reasons

00:18:11.460 why I think we're seeing

00:18:12.580 this rise in social isolation,

00:18:14.040 but we're also seeing, again,

00:18:16.200 kind of a trend

00:18:17.920 in the opposite direction as well,

00:18:19.660 where recognizing

00:18:20.860 that this is a problem,

00:18:22.200 you see a lot of communities

00:18:23.720 and institutions

00:18:24.480 trying to create community

00:18:27.220 and belonging

00:18:28.060 in new ways for people

00:18:29.780 that gets them talking

00:18:31.020 to each other again.

00:18:32.920 And so does this sense of community,

00:18:34.400 does it need to be face-to-face

00:18:36.400 like in the real world

00:18:38.520 or is it possible to do it virtually?

00:18:41.280 Or is virtually, you know,

00:18:42.080 virtually like that's not possible.

00:18:43.540 That's why people feel lonely

00:18:45.400 despite being connected.

00:18:47.060 You know, I think that,

00:18:48.420 I think it's easy to criticize

00:18:50.160 social media

00:18:51.200 for exacerbating this problem,

00:18:54.960 but I think that,

00:18:57.360 I think there's more to it than that.

00:18:58.880 I mean, certainly people can find

00:19:00.840 a sense of belonging

00:19:01.720 on social media

00:19:02.780 if they're intentional

00:19:03.860 about the way they use it.

00:19:05.540 I, you know,

00:19:06.480 I was talking about this

00:19:07.960 at an event in Texas last year

00:19:11.320 and, you know,

00:19:12.720 this question came up

00:19:13.800 and a woman, you know,

00:19:15.780 raised her hand.

00:19:16.620 She was sitting in the back

00:19:17.620 of the bookstore

00:19:18.160 and she, you know,

00:19:20.460 she was in her 80s

00:19:21.740 and she told me,

00:19:22.840 she said, you know,

00:19:23.760 my purpose right now

00:19:25.500 is to put together

00:19:27.380 a family history

00:19:28.960 that's this book

00:19:30.200 that I want to be able

00:19:31.920 to pass down to my children

00:19:33.300 and grandchildren

00:19:34.040 and for it to be this record

00:19:35.800 of who we were.

00:19:38.020 And the way that I've been able

00:19:39.880 to fill out the different parts

00:19:42.440 of my family tree

00:19:43.420 is by going online

00:19:45.120 and turning to Facebook

00:19:46.380 and other social media sites

00:19:48.260 to find people

00:19:49.480 who are in our family

00:19:50.400 who I wouldn't have known before.

00:19:52.040 So, you know,

00:19:52.900 she used this wonderful technology

00:19:54.800 to kind of create

00:19:55.780 this sense of belonging

00:19:57.320 within her family

00:19:58.200 and to form new connections

00:19:59.360 and new forms of belonging

00:20:01.020 with people

00:20:01.720 she didn't even know before.

00:20:03.420 That said,

00:20:04.260 I think that if you're only relying

00:20:06.000 on, you know,

00:20:07.380 these virtual forms of connection,

00:20:09.160 then there's going to be something

00:20:10.340 that's missing from your life.

00:20:12.280 There's research

00:20:13.320 that shows that

00:20:14.680 there is something

00:20:15.820 about the kind of

00:20:17.220 kinetic, visceral interaction

00:20:19.700 that you have

00:20:20.340 with somebody face-to-face

00:20:22.300 that really kind of

00:20:23.780 replenishes you

00:20:24.920 both psychologically

00:20:25.800 and physically.

00:20:27.000 There are actually

00:20:27.380 kind of physical benefits

00:20:28.640 to having these

00:20:29.600 moments of belonging

00:20:31.280 and connection

00:20:32.020 with somebody else.

00:20:33.620 You know,

00:20:33.860 your brain waves

00:20:35.060 actually kind of

00:20:36.000 get on the same wavelength.

00:20:38.140 Your heart rate

00:20:39.600 and your hormone levels

00:20:41.040 can kind of rise

00:20:42.300 and fall together.

00:20:43.500 So it's really interesting

00:20:44.700 and I think it shows

00:20:45.600 that there is something

00:20:46.460 vitally important

00:20:47.640 about the face-to-face

00:20:48.640 connections too.

00:20:50.160 So maybe use

00:20:50.900 social media technology

00:20:52.680 to, you know,

00:20:53.760 organize.

00:20:54.300 I think that's what I find

00:20:55.260 the most benefit

00:20:55.680 of social media

00:20:56.060 is organizing

00:20:56.600 face-to-face meetups.

00:20:58.500 Right, right.

00:20:59.140 Exactly.

00:20:59.900 And I think, you know,

00:21:02.120 you know,

00:21:02.400 celebrating other people's

00:21:03.860 good news

00:21:04.520 and keeping in touch

00:21:05.300 with people,

00:21:06.080 those kind of more

00:21:06.700 basic forms,

00:21:07.840 functions of social media,

00:21:09.120 I think those can also

00:21:10.320 cultivate belonging

00:21:11.460 in smaller ways.

00:21:13.720 But there is a price

00:21:15.400 to pay, you know,

00:21:16.700 with a sense of belonging.

00:21:17.600 You get all these benefits,

00:21:18.340 but, you know,

00:21:18.620 it does require you

00:21:19.800 to go out of your way

00:21:21.340 for folks that,

00:21:22.220 you know,

00:21:22.920 you'd rather not.

00:21:23.560 You're just like,

00:21:23.880 well, you know,

00:21:24.420 I'm comfortable here.

00:21:25.460 Do I really want to go over

00:21:26.740 and help my friend move?

00:21:29.360 Like, I mean,

00:21:30.220 I think that's why

00:21:30.760 one of the reasons

00:21:31.740 people, you know,

00:21:33.600 tend to be individualistic

00:21:34.740 because it's, you know,

00:21:35.480 it's hard work

00:21:36.320 to socialize

00:21:37.500 and be connected with others.

00:21:39.120 You're 100% right

00:21:40.740 about that.

00:21:41.600 And I would just say

00:21:42.860 that, you know,

00:21:44.260 one of the things

00:21:46.240 that you see

00:21:47.040 when you look at

00:21:48.520 the articles

00:21:49.220 and the research

00:21:49.860 about happiness

00:21:50.500 is that there's this

00:21:51.740 real quick fix mentality

00:21:53.400 like, okay,

00:21:54.560 if you just do

00:21:55.200 these three things

00:21:56.060 or check off

00:21:56.620 these five boxes,

00:21:57.820 you'll be happier

00:21:58.740 and then your life

00:22:00.340 will be so much better.

00:22:01.700 And it's not quite like that

00:22:03.120 with a meaningful life.

00:22:04.520 A meaningful life

00:22:05.200 definitely takes work.

00:22:06.540 It requires effort

00:22:07.460 and it's because,

00:22:09.960 you know,

00:22:11.060 it requires us

00:22:12.440 to do things

00:22:12.980 exactly like you're saying,

00:22:14.000 like reaching out

00:22:14.880 to others,

00:22:15.500 making ourselves vulnerable,

00:22:17.140 turning down

00:22:17.740 our own natural selfishness

00:22:19.840 to be of service

00:22:21.380 to somebody else.

00:22:22.300 And that's not always easy,

00:22:23.820 but it does leave us

00:22:25.820 with this greater sense

00:22:27.220 of satisfaction

00:22:27.920 down the road.

00:22:29.040 And I know that

00:22:29.520 we all know

00:22:29.940 from experience

00:22:30.620 the things

00:22:31.240 that are most worth having

00:22:33.180 are the things

00:22:33.860 that are the hardest

00:22:35.060 to work for.

00:22:36.640 Yeah.

00:22:36.820 And my experience

00:22:37.580 has been whenever

00:22:38.180 I've had that resistance

00:22:39.640 where I'm like,

00:22:40.300 ah,

00:22:40.680 I don't want to do this thing

00:22:42.100 because it's going to be annoying.

00:22:45.220 Then you go to it

00:22:46.200 and you have a great time

00:22:47.720 and afterwards you're like,

00:22:48.680 man,

00:22:48.820 I'm really glad I did that.

00:22:50.280 That I feel,

00:22:51.080 you feel happy,

00:22:51.920 but also you feel

00:22:53.180 like you did something meaningful.

00:22:54.760 Right,

00:22:55.100 right.

00:22:55.440 No,

00:22:55.640 exactly.

00:22:56.520 I have a psychology professor

00:22:57.660 in grad school

00:22:58.360 who used to see

00:22:59.900 patients clinically

00:23:00.960 and he saw

00:23:02.080 a lot of depression,

00:23:03.940 people who are experiencing

00:23:05.080 depression,

00:23:05.760 suffering from it.

00:23:06.640 And he said that,

00:23:07.580 you know,

00:23:08.080 far more effective

00:23:08.880 than prescribing them

00:23:10.500 an antidepressant

00:23:11.620 was prescribing them

00:23:13.080 to go out

00:23:13.720 and volunteer

00:23:14.300 in their community

00:23:15.320 because once they got involved,

00:23:17.440 once they broke

00:23:18.280 that shell

00:23:19.300 of kind of,

00:23:20.400 you know,

00:23:20.680 self-focus

00:23:21.500 and self-rumination

00:23:24.160 on what was wrong

00:23:25.020 with me,

00:23:25.360 what's wrong

00:23:25.640 with the world,

00:23:26.760 they not only felt

00:23:28.220 their lives

00:23:28.620 were more meaningful,

00:23:29.320 but they also felt happier

00:23:30.580 because they were out there

00:23:31.580 doing things

00:23:32.420 and that made them feel useful.

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00:25:20.120 And now back to the show.

00:25:21.900 Yeah.

00:25:22.440 So let's talk about

00:25:23.160 the next pillar,

00:25:23.820 which is purpose.

00:25:25.140 What are we talking about

00:25:26.420 when we're talking

00:25:27.620 about a purpose?

00:25:28.280 Is it like,

00:25:28.600 how do you some like

00:25:29.120 grand, giant thing

00:25:30.420 like I'm going to change

00:25:31.060 the world

00:25:31.560 or can it be smaller?

00:25:33.440 So definitely,

00:25:34.340 I think a lot of people

00:25:35.240 when they think about purpose,

00:25:36.400 they think of that

00:25:37.080 big capital P purpose

00:25:39.040 that they need to find,

00:25:40.200 their capital C calling.

00:25:41.860 Once they find it,

00:25:42.960 that for the rest

00:25:43.900 of their lives,

00:25:44.540 they'll have this

00:25:45.160 really strong sense of meaning.

00:25:46.680 But, you know,

00:25:48.000 for most people,

00:25:48.820 that's not what purpose

00:25:49.900 is going to look like.

00:25:51.180 In fact,

00:25:52.120 only one third of people,

00:25:53.860 according to the research,

00:25:55.540 have this feeling

00:25:57.900 of their job

00:25:59.660 is a calling,

00:26:00.980 this sense of,

00:26:02.260 you know,

00:26:02.500 I have found

00:26:03.360 my capital P purpose.

00:26:05.340 And for the rest of us,

00:26:07.000 you know,

00:26:07.340 we're going to find purpose

00:26:08.380 in kind of smaller,

00:26:09.740 more local ways.

00:26:11.540 And so, you know,

00:26:12.180 what is purpose?

00:26:12.880 Purpose is,

00:26:14.300 it's defined as a goal

00:26:16.540 or a principle

00:26:17.420 that organizes your life

00:26:19.840 and that involves

00:26:20.760 making a contribution

00:26:22.060 to others.

00:26:23.340 So for one person,

00:26:24.360 it might be something like

00:26:25.420 working on a cure for cancer.

00:26:27.200 That's a purpose

00:26:28.280 and it's this big purpose.

00:26:29.960 For another person,

00:26:30.780 it could be,

00:26:31.440 you know,

00:26:31.920 raising their children,

00:26:33.440 being a good person,

00:26:35.020 volunteering in their community.

00:26:37.020 I spoke to a woman

00:26:38.320 who was working

00:26:39.760 as a custodian

00:26:41.860 at a hospital

00:26:42.680 in Michigan

00:26:43.860 and she told me

00:26:45.580 that her purpose

00:26:46.280 is not cleaning bedpans

00:26:48.520 and mopping the floor,

00:26:49.740 but it's helping

00:26:50.520 sick people heal.

00:26:53.160 So there's something

00:26:54.080 about purpose

00:26:54.620 that, yes,

00:26:55.740 it can come in all shapes

00:26:56.620 and sizes,

00:26:57.140 but it also involves

00:26:58.360 connecting what you're doing

00:26:59.800 to something bigger.

00:27:02.160 Yeah.

00:27:02.440 I mean,

00:27:02.620 I think you,

00:27:03.200 I think you raised this point

00:27:04.440 about,

00:27:05.140 I forgot which philosopher

00:27:06.580 or psychologist

00:27:07.360 I talked about,

00:27:07.760 you know,

00:27:07.900 people who back in the 30s

00:27:09.900 during the Great Depression 0.99

00:27:10.820 were just,

00:27:11.780 you know,

00:27:12.320 suicide was increasing

00:27:13.360 and the sense of meaningless

00:27:14.100 was increasing

00:27:15.100 and one of the vices

00:27:16.660 is like,

00:27:16.920 just go get a job.

00:27:17.820 It can be anything

00:27:18.760 and you start there

00:27:20.500 and it might not be grand,

00:27:23.200 but like you have that purpose

00:27:24.220 for that day

00:27:25.160 because you're contributing

00:27:26.800 in some small way

00:27:27.880 to other people.

00:27:29.080 Exactly.

00:27:29.540 I think,

00:27:29.920 I think it was,

00:27:30.860 it was the chapter

00:27:31.600 where I talk about

00:27:32.460 Will Durant,

00:27:33.640 who's a beautiful writer

00:27:35.740 and historian

00:27:36.360 in his own right

00:27:37.400 and he talks about,

00:27:39.500 you know,

00:27:39.780 even,

00:27:40.260 you know,

00:27:40.420 if you feel this sense

00:27:41.820 of despair

00:27:42.900 and lethargy

00:27:45.080 and,

00:27:45.740 you know,

00:27:46.340 alienation from the world, 0.77

00:27:47.900 just doing something,

00:27:49.800 anything,

00:27:50.700 even if it's volunteering,

00:27:52.140 even if you're not getting paid,

00:27:53.440 you know,

00:27:53.720 whatever,

00:27:54.660 going,

00:27:55.240 you know,

00:27:55.440 getting a job

00:27:55.980 at the local coffee shop

00:27:57.680 is the first step

00:27:59.300 towards finding

00:28:01.200 that meaning

00:28:01.980 that can sustain you

00:28:03.380 and it's because

00:28:04.200 it re-engages you

00:28:05.500 with the world.

00:28:06.760 So purpose,

00:28:07.540 another way to think

00:28:08.200 about purpose

00:28:08.760 is that

00:28:09.380 it's having a role

00:28:10.900 to play

00:28:11.640 in your community,

00:28:13.020 within your family

00:28:14.040 and when people feel

00:28:15.340 like they don't have

00:28:16.060 a role to play

00:28:16.800 when suddenly,

00:28:17.680 you know,

00:28:18.240 parents become

00:28:18.980 empty nesters

00:28:19.880 or you lose your job

00:28:21.300 or you retire,

00:28:22.580 then that's when people

00:28:23.580 experience a crisis

00:28:24.520 of purpose.

00:28:25.000 So it's important

00:28:25.880 to kind of,

00:28:26.700 you know,

00:28:27.180 quickly

00:28:27.880 reassert those roles

00:28:30.240 in your life

00:28:30.920 in new ways

00:28:31.620 or find new roles.

00:28:33.780 And so how do you,

00:28:35.300 let's say you,

00:28:36.000 you're starting

00:28:36.400 from scratch,

00:28:37.020 right?

00:28:37.300 You're,

00:28:37.640 you're,

00:28:38.020 you know,

00:28:38.480 having some

00:28:39.060 existential depression,

00:28:40.140 you get a job

00:28:41.180 and that's helping

00:28:41.740 you engage

00:28:42.320 with the world.

00:28:42.980 How do you start

00:28:44.020 finding that larger purpose?

00:28:45.700 Is it something

00:28:46.240 that you can actively

00:28:47.200 find,

00:28:48.220 proactively find

00:28:48.920 or is it something

00:28:49.440 that as you

00:28:51.120 engage with the world,

00:28:52.380 you'll sort of stumble upon?

00:28:54.200 I think,

00:28:54.800 I think it can be both

00:28:55.820 and I think that

00:28:56.460 one of the,

00:28:57.260 the mistakes

00:28:58.800 that we might make

00:28:59.640 when we think about purpose

00:29:00.620 is overthinking it.

00:29:02.520 So,

00:29:03.080 you know,

00:29:03.560 purpose is really about

00:29:04.960 figuring out

00:29:06.380 what your,

00:29:06.960 your talents are,

00:29:08.040 what your strengths are

00:29:09.360 and how you can use them

00:29:10.880 to serve the world

00:29:12.200 and to serve others.

00:29:13.500 I,

00:29:13.800 I believe,

00:29:14.640 and you know,

00:29:15.580 I,

00:29:15.840 I think I'm in good company

00:29:17.020 with,

00:29:17.440 with a lot of other philosophers

00:29:19.000 from Emmanuel Kant

00:29:20.360 to Viktor Frankl

00:29:21.140 who we talked about

00:29:21.940 that everybody here

00:29:23.560 has some sort of purpose.

00:29:25.520 In other words,

00:29:26.160 they have some contribution

00:29:28.120 that they can make

00:29:29.540 to the world

00:29:30.400 and that's,

00:29:31.480 what that contribution is,

00:29:32.900 is their choice.

00:29:34.100 I think it's not necessarily

00:29:35.520 predetermined.

00:29:37.120 Now,

00:29:37.220 some people might be born

00:29:38.360 with a calling

00:29:39.060 for music

00:29:39.780 or for computer science

00:29:42.000 or whatever the case may be

00:29:43.180 but for those of us

00:29:44.200 who are just trying

00:29:44.740 to figure it out,

00:29:46.120 you know,

00:29:46.680 sit down

00:29:47.960 and reflect on

00:29:48.800 what your strengths

00:29:49.420 and talents are

00:29:50.240 and then see

00:29:51.460 if you can find

00:29:52.820 ways to put them

00:29:53.960 to use

00:29:54.420 either in what you're doing

00:29:55.480 or in new context.

00:29:57.120 Research shows that

00:29:58.240 when you use

00:29:59.680 your strengths

00:30:00.300 and talents

00:30:00.960 in the work you're doing,

00:30:02.240 it doesn't matter

00:30:02.660 what that work is,

00:30:03.640 you feel a greater

00:30:04.860 sense of purpose

00:30:05.780 to that work

00:30:06.660 because you're kind of

00:30:07.380 taking the best in you

00:30:08.520 and giving it to the world.

00:30:10.900 So,

00:30:11.300 so I think that,

00:30:12.620 you know,

00:30:12.900 you can kind of

00:30:14.060 actively

00:30:14.820 figure out

00:30:16.380 and pursue

00:30:16.780 what your purpose is

00:30:17.480 or you can kind of

00:30:19.140 just be out there

00:30:20.440 in the world,

00:30:21.380 you know,

00:30:21.660 giving to it,

00:30:22.320 using your strengths

00:30:23.160 and seeing if that

00:30:24.300 kind of

00:30:25.120 from the ground up

00:30:26.320 gives you this

00:30:26.980 sense of purpose.

00:30:27.900 It sounds like

00:30:29.920 you can have

00:30:30.380 more than one purpose,

00:30:31.960 right?

00:30:32.300 Is that true?

00:30:33.180 It is true.

00:30:33.960 So,

00:30:34.640 you know,

00:30:34.880 there's a psychologist

00:30:36.000 named Eric Erickson

00:30:37.080 who was,

00:30:38.680 was,

00:30:39.300 was alive

00:30:40.000 in the 20th century

00:30:40.900 and he

00:30:41.600 had this idea

00:30:43.060 of life

00:30:44.000 as a series

00:30:45.120 of developmental stages.

00:30:47.000 So,

00:30:47.620 you know,

00:30:47.820 when you're young,

00:30:48.600 your,

00:30:49.020 your job is to figure out

00:30:50.420 who you are,

00:30:51.920 what your identity is.

00:30:53.120 As you get older,

00:30:54.200 your job is to

00:30:55.760 become

00:30:56.680 what he calls

00:30:57.580 generative.

00:30:58.620 In other words,

00:30:59.160 contributing to

00:31:00.200 the younger generations,

00:31:01.640 whether it's by mentoring

00:31:02.660 people or raising children

00:31:03.960 or what have you.

00:31:05.540 And so,

00:31:06.340 baked into that idea

00:31:07.460 is this sense that

00:31:08.660 as our lives

00:31:09.760 change and develop

00:31:10.740 and as we grow,

00:31:11.940 the things that

00:31:12.740 we're supposed to be doing

00:31:14.020 and that give our lives

00:31:14.900 purpose can change as well.

00:31:16.680 So,

00:31:16.900 I mentioned parenting,

00:31:17.820 you know,

00:31:17.980 for many parents,

00:31:18.820 like their kids

00:31:19.400 are their main source

00:31:20.280 of purpose

00:31:21.000 and,

00:31:21.720 you know,

00:31:22.400 that,

00:31:22.640 that's kind of

00:31:23.460 a prominent source

00:31:24.120 of purpose

00:31:24.520 in middle age.

00:31:26.480 But then,

00:31:26.820 once your kids

00:31:27.460 leave the house,

00:31:28.160 once you retire,

00:31:29.540 your purpose might be

00:31:30.620 something else.

00:31:31.340 It might be

00:31:32.080 becoming involved

00:31:33.040 in your religious

00:31:34.040 organization

00:31:34.980 or finding

00:31:36.780 a second purpose.

00:31:37.980 I read about

00:31:38.560 this organization

00:31:39.200 called Encore

00:31:40.240 that helps people

00:31:41.800 who are retired

00:31:42.640 embark upon

00:31:44.680 kind of a whole

00:31:45.380 new career.

00:31:46.900 So,

00:31:47.140 you have a police officer

00:31:48.200 who then retires

00:31:50.380 and decides

00:31:51.160 that he wants

00:31:51.660 to start creating

00:31:52.560 museum art

00:31:53.560 because being

00:31:54.680 an artist

00:31:55.100 was this passion

00:31:56.240 that he had

00:31:56.800 that he,

00:31:57.360 you know,

00:31:57.820 wasn't able

00:31:58.260 to fulfill

00:31:58.900 during the earlier

00:32:00.840 parts of his life.

00:32:01.980 So,

00:32:02.320 certainly it can

00:32:02.900 change over time.

00:32:04.720 So,

00:32:04.840 the next pillar

00:32:05.420 you talk about

00:32:05.920 is storytelling.

00:32:07.080 What role does

00:32:07.780 that play

00:32:08.260 in creating

00:32:09.260 a meaningful life?

00:32:10.840 So,

00:32:11.400 storytelling

00:32:11.520 is an interesting

00:32:13.300 pillar

00:32:13.700 and I found

00:32:15.120 that when I go

00:32:16.020 out and I talk

00:32:16.760 to people

00:32:17.160 about this pillar,

00:32:18.600 it's one of the

00:32:19.540 ones that resonates

00:32:20.580 with them

00:32:21.240 most strongly

00:32:22.160 and also

00:32:22.880 can surprise

00:32:24.120 them.

00:32:25.300 So,

00:32:25.960 storytelling.

00:32:26.600 So,

00:32:26.940 you know,

00:32:27.120 we think

00:32:27.460 we're surrounded

00:32:28.160 by stories

00:32:29.120 all day long,

00:32:30.360 right?

00:32:30.680 You know,

00:32:30.960 we have movie theaters,

00:32:32.260 we have television shows,

00:32:33.580 novels,

00:32:34.680 you know,

00:32:35.000 comic strips,

00:32:36.040 children's books,

00:32:36.800 there are stories

00:32:37.500 all around us.

00:32:38.400 But the story

00:32:39.440 that I am talking

00:32:40.520 about with this pillar

00:32:41.840 is the story

00:32:43.540 that you tell

00:32:44.400 yourself

00:32:45.080 about yourself,

00:32:46.540 about how you

00:32:47.360 became the person

00:32:48.860 that you are today.

00:32:49.760 And I think

00:32:51.560 my intuition

00:32:52.280 is that the reason

00:32:53.280 this pillar

00:32:54.200 surprises people

00:32:55.800 is because

00:32:56.800 we don't always

00:32:57.820 realize that we

00:32:58.700 have this

00:32:59.280 ongoing narrative

00:33:00.200 going on in our

00:33:01.560 mind at all times

00:33:03.260 and that

00:33:04.320 because,

00:33:05.360 you know,

00:33:05.620 this narrative

00:33:06.080 is going on

00:33:06.660 in our mind

00:33:07.000 at all times,

00:33:08.280 it's shaping

00:33:09.360 our lives

00:33:10.020 in ways that

00:33:10.440 we don't realize

00:33:11.100 it.

00:33:11.780 And we also

00:33:13.000 have the power

00:33:13.780 to change

00:33:14.940 that story

00:33:15.720 if it's a story

00:33:16.900 that we don't like.

00:33:18.360 So,

00:33:18.760 let me give you

00:33:19.160 an example.

00:33:19.760 So,

00:33:19.920 the field

00:33:20.220 of psychology

00:33:20.800 that deals

00:33:21.280 with this

00:33:21.680 is called

00:33:22.220 narrative psychology,

00:33:23.720 narrative identity.

00:33:25.180 Okay,

00:33:25.340 so there's

00:33:25.620 this device

00:33:26.260 in narrative

00:33:27.720 psychology

00:33:28.340 that helps

00:33:29.620 illustrate the

00:33:30.280 power of

00:33:30.920 storytelling.

00:33:31.880 So,

00:33:32.260 let's say

00:33:32.780 you had

00:33:34.340 a really

00:33:35.260 important interview

00:33:36.040 this morning

00:33:36.860 and you,

00:33:38.880 you know,

00:33:39.400 you went to,

00:33:40.340 you know,

00:33:40.620 you went to bed

00:33:41.060 early for it

00:33:41.940 and you were

00:33:42.800 really excited

00:33:43.820 for it,

00:33:44.480 but when the

00:33:45.320 morning came

00:33:45.800 around,

00:33:46.700 you slept

00:33:47.860 through your

00:33:48.460 alarm

00:33:49.020 because,

00:33:49.960 you know,

00:33:50.260 you just,

00:33:50.860 you're so tired

00:33:51.740 and,

00:33:52.960 you know,

00:33:53.320 finally you get

00:33:54.060 up and you're

00:33:54.460 in a rush

00:33:55.060 and you're

00:33:55.640 trying to make

00:33:56.440 up for the

00:33:56.820 time that you

00:33:57.280 lost and

00:33:57.980 you're rushing

00:33:58.380 at the door

00:33:58.940 and you realize

00:33:59.980 that your car

00:34:00.620 keys aren't

00:34:01.640 where you

00:34:02.720 left them.

00:34:03.300 and so all

00:34:04.320 of a sudden

00:34:04.640 you're even

00:34:05.480 later than

00:34:06.180 you were

00:34:06.640 because you

00:34:07.120 can't find

00:34:07.540 your keys

00:34:08.020 and you

00:34:09.100 rummage

00:34:09.400 around and

00:34:10.000 finally you

00:34:10.520 find those

00:34:10.900 keys and

00:34:12.280 you make

00:34:13.000 your way

00:34:13.220 out the

00:34:13.500 door and

00:34:14.160 it's,

00:34:14.580 you know,

00:34:14.900 really icy

00:34:15.480 outside and

00:34:16.520 you had

00:34:16.800 meant to

00:34:17.160 salt your

00:34:17.560 steps the

00:34:18.080 day before

00:34:18.580 but you

00:34:18.980 didn't and

00:34:19.860 so the

00:34:20.660 steps are

00:34:20.960 all slippery

00:34:21.380 and you

00:34:21.840 fall down

00:34:22.220 the stairs

00:34:22.700 and not

00:34:23.620 only are

00:34:23.980 you late

00:34:24.380 but you're

00:34:24.640 also kind

00:34:25.100 of wet

00:34:25.580 and injured

00:34:26.400 and the

00:34:27.360 morning is

00:34:27.700 just off to

00:34:28.100 a disastrous

00:34:28.540 start.

00:34:29.900 So those

00:34:31.160 are three

00:34:31.660 data points

00:34:32.400 from your

00:34:32.800 morning,

00:34:33.220 right?

00:34:33.500 So you

00:34:34.140 wake up

00:34:34.840 late,

00:34:35.660 you lose

00:34:36.280 your car

00:34:36.680 keys and

00:34:37.360 you slip

00:34:37.760 and fall

00:34:38.240 and then

00:34:39.640 you take

00:34:40.060 those data

00:34:40.860 points and

00:34:41.420 you start

00:34:41.720 constructing a

00:34:42.620 story about

00:34:43.340 the kind of

00:34:43.820 person you

00:34:44.300 are.

00:34:44.660 You say,

00:34:45.260 man,

00:34:45.720 you know,

00:34:46.180 I don't have

00:34:47.260 my life

00:34:47.660 together,

00:34:48.280 I can't do

00:34:48.780 anything right,

00:34:50.180 this is why

00:34:50.980 nobody will

00:34:51.820 marry me,

00:34:52.580 this is why

00:34:53.280 I'm not going

00:34:54.060 to get that

00:34:54.440 job that I'm

00:34:55.000 interviewing for,

00:34:56.240 my life sucks

00:34:57.180 and the world

00:34:57.960 sucks and it's

00:34:59.020 just terrible

00:34:59.800 or you could,

00:35:01.900 you know,

00:35:02.400 reflect on

00:35:03.440 your morning

00:35:04.360 or your week

00:35:05.300 and think

00:35:06.100 about all

00:35:06.740 those other

00:35:07.280 data points

00:35:08.100 that you're

00:35:09.000 not incorporating

00:35:10.020 into your

00:35:10.640 story.

00:35:11.600 Like,

00:35:12.200 maybe you

00:35:13.420 couldn't find

00:35:15.640 your car keys

00:35:16.340 the night

00:35:16.560 before because

00:35:17.260 you would put

00:35:17.940 them in your

00:35:18.640 coat pocket

00:35:19.320 the night

00:35:19.640 before thinking

00:35:20.780 that,

00:35:21.400 okay,

00:35:21.520 if they're

00:35:21.780 in my

00:35:22.100 coat,

00:35:22.860 then I

00:35:23.660 will just

00:35:24.420 put my

00:35:24.680 coat on

00:35:25.040 and rush

00:35:25.380 out the

00:35:25.640 door and

00:35:26.180 it'll make

00:35:26.580 things more

00:35:26.980 efficient,

00:35:27.500 but you

00:35:27.720 forgot that

00:35:28.200 you did

00:35:28.480 that,

00:35:29.200 but it

00:35:29.620 was something

00:35:29.940 you did

00:35:30.380 that,

00:35:30.680 you know,

00:35:31.060 that showed

00:35:31.760 some foresight

00:35:32.760 and showed

00:35:33.100 that you

00:35:33.300 were trying

00:35:33.800 and,

00:35:34.840 you know,

00:35:35.380 maybe you

00:35:35.920 didn't salt

00:35:36.800 the stairs

00:35:37.340 last night

00:35:38.040 because you

00:35:38.420 were busy

00:35:38.880 helping your

00:35:39.540 neighbor bring

00:35:40.540 her groceries

00:35:41.220 in and then

00:35:42.020 time ran

00:35:42.580 out.

00:35:43.260 And so

00:35:43.540 thinking about

00:35:44.420 those other

00:35:45.280 data points

00:35:45.940 and incorporating

00:35:46.680 those into

00:35:47.480 your story

00:35:48.080 as well,

00:35:48.940 that's what

00:35:49.380 storytelling really

00:35:50.200 is about.

00:35:50.820 It's taking

00:35:51.660 the full picture

00:35:52.640 and telling a

00:35:53.780 story that

00:35:54.340 empowers you

00:35:55.220 and that moves

00:35:55.780 you forward.

00:35:56.340 But how

00:35:57.400 do you

00:35:57.600 with these

00:35:57.940 stories,

00:35:58.660 how do

00:35:59.000 you make

00:35:59.320 sure you're

00:35:59.600 not fooling

00:36:00.540 yourself with

00:36:01.960 them to

00:36:02.380 create that

00:36:03.000 meaning or

00:36:03.280 do you have

00:36:04.040 to fool

00:36:04.360 yourself to

00:36:05.600 sometimes fool

00:36:06.400 yourself to

00:36:06.780 create meaning

00:36:07.420 out of our

00:36:08.380 lives?

00:36:09.260 That's a

00:36:09.880 great question

00:36:10.540 and I think

00:36:12.000 that one way

00:36:13.020 to think about

00:36:13.640 it is like

00:36:14.480 this.

00:36:14.960 So human

00:36:15.580 beings have

00:36:16.840 a really

00:36:17.480 strong

00:36:18.220 negativity

00:36:19.080 bias.

00:36:19.920 It's kind

00:36:20.200 of been shown

00:36:20.800 consistently in

00:36:21.560 the research

00:36:22.140 and Roy

00:36:23.440 Baumeister,

00:36:24.200 who we've

00:36:24.860 mentioned a

00:36:25.200 number of

00:36:25.500 times here,

00:36:25.980 he's actually

00:36:26.360 written a

00:36:26.780 great paper

00:36:27.780 in psychology

00:36:28.480 about how

00:36:29.660 the bad

00:36:31.200 is stronger

00:36:31.860 than the good

00:36:32.620 when it comes

00:36:33.200 to what we

00:36:34.240 pay attention

00:36:34.800 to and how

00:36:35.620 things affect

00:36:36.240 us.

00:36:37.020 So kind of

00:36:37.560 negative

00:36:37.920 experiences,

00:36:38.800 painful emotions

00:36:39.760 affect us

00:36:40.360 much more

00:36:40.920 strongly and

00:36:42.040 we remember

00:36:42.900 them much

00:36:43.420 more significantly

00:36:44.180 than the

00:36:45.080 positive ones.

00:36:47.060 And I think

00:36:47.500 that taking

00:36:48.500 that principle

00:36:49.200 to storytelling,

00:36:51.700 we have to

00:36:52.340 acknowledge that

00:36:53.300 when something

00:36:54.360 bad happens,

00:36:55.500 or when we

00:36:56.100 experience something

00:36:56.960 negative or

00:36:57.620 painful emotions,

00:36:58.940 those are going

00:36:59.440 to affect us

00:37:00.140 and therefore

00:37:00.780 be much more

00:37:01.820 likely to make

00:37:03.140 it into the

00:37:03.800 story that we

00:37:04.360 tell just because

00:37:05.120 of the powerful

00:37:05.700 effect that they

00:37:06.340 have on us.

00:37:07.580 So when we're

00:37:08.160 trying to craft

00:37:09.220 a story in a

00:37:10.240 way that actually

00:37:11.700 reflects the

00:37:12.840 reality that

00:37:14.040 we're living,

00:37:14.960 we have to work

00:37:15.920 against that

00:37:16.600 negativity bias

00:37:17.580 and therefore

00:37:18.460 we have to

00:37:19.540 actively

00:37:20.660 seek out

00:37:22.540 and remember

00:37:23.840 and incorporate

00:37:24.640 into our

00:37:25.280 narrative the

00:37:26.260 good things that

00:37:26.960 happened as

00:37:27.640 well.

00:37:28.400 So when I talk

00:37:29.220 about storytelling,

00:37:30.280 I'll get a

00:37:30.840 question like

00:37:31.480 yours that'll be

00:37:32.700 something like,

00:37:33.700 well, how do we

00:37:34.120 know we're not

00:37:34.440 deluding ourselves

00:37:35.140 if we're just

00:37:35.660 kind of spinning

00:37:36.420 the story in a

00:37:37.200 more positive

00:37:37.740 way?

00:37:38.540 I think that

00:37:39.520 we're actually

00:37:40.240 deluding ourselves

00:37:41.720 by telling these

00:37:43.140 negative stories

00:37:43.960 because they

00:37:45.160 don't reflect the

00:37:45.940 reality.

00:37:46.320 They reflect the

00:37:47.660 fact that our

00:37:48.260 brains pinpoint

00:37:49.640 and focus on

00:37:50.860 one or two

00:37:51.420 negative events

00:37:52.200 at the expense

00:37:53.140 of all these

00:37:53.680 positive things

00:37:54.360 that are happening.

00:37:55.300 Okay, I like

00:37:56.620 that.

00:37:57.400 So another

00:37:58.100 pillar you talk

00:37:58.800 about is

00:37:59.140 transcendence.

00:38:00.200 What do you

00:38:00.960 mean by that

00:38:01.660 and how do we

00:38:03.000 experience it

00:38:03.880 more in our

00:38:04.220 lives?

00:38:05.760 Transcendence.

00:38:06.420 So transcendence,

00:38:08.400 it's this big

00:38:09.340 word, it's a

00:38:10.600 mouthful, but I

00:38:12.440 think we all

00:38:13.680 kind of know

00:38:14.440 what this one

00:38:15.760 is about.

00:38:16.540 So transcendent

00:38:17.440 experiences are

00:38:18.900 those moments

00:38:19.640 when we're

00:38:20.240 lifted above

00:38:21.200 the hustle and

00:38:22.240 bustle of daily

00:38:23.260 life and when

00:38:24.160 we're even

00:38:24.620 lifted out of

00:38:25.340 our own minds,

00:38:27.040 our own sense

00:38:27.660 of self, and

00:38:28.800 feel connected

00:38:29.960 to something much

00:38:31.520 bigger than

00:38:32.060 ourselves.

00:38:33.220 So, you know,

00:38:33.940 for a lot of

00:38:34.460 people that can

00:38:35.880 happen within a

00:38:36.940 religious context,

00:38:38.280 you know,

00:38:38.640 meditating,

00:38:39.840 praying, going

00:38:41.180 to a church

00:38:42.240 service, temple,

00:38:43.760 mosque, whatever,

00:38:45.040 where you're

00:38:45.980 engaged in these

00:38:47.340 rituals and

00:38:48.680 kind of

00:38:49.400 liturgical

00:38:50.140 moments of

00:38:52.140 transcendence.

00:38:53.500 You know,

00:38:53.700 something is

00:38:55.200 taking you

00:38:55.720 outside of

00:38:56.460 space and

00:38:57.020 time and

00:38:57.880 connecting you

00:38:58.680 to, in a

00:39:00.180 religious context,

00:39:01.400 what you might

00:39:01.820 call God.

00:39:03.340 But there are

00:39:04.520 secular ways to

00:39:06.100 experience this

00:39:07.320 as well.

00:39:08.620 You know,

00:39:08.900 being in nature,

00:39:09.840 being in the

00:39:10.240 woods, Ralph

00:39:10.920 Waldo Emerson

00:39:11.740 wrote beautifully

00:39:13.380 about this,

00:39:14.080 as did Henry

00:39:14.680 David Thoreau,

00:39:15.380 the sense of

00:39:16.120 kind of the

00:39:17.060 divine that

00:39:17.700 they felt

00:39:18.380 walking in the

00:39:19.720 woods or being

00:39:20.920 out at Walden

00:39:21.780 Pond in

00:39:22.640 Thoreau's case.

00:39:24.160 For a lot of

00:39:25.120 other people,

00:39:26.360 you know,

00:39:27.060 music, art,

00:39:29.440 looking up at

00:39:30.220 the stars at

00:39:30.920 night, these are

00:39:31.500 all also portals

00:39:33.280 to transcendence.

00:39:34.660 And one of the

00:39:36.040 emotions that

00:39:37.160 transcendent

00:39:38.100 experiences evoke

00:39:39.480 is awe.

00:39:41.220 So this feeling

00:39:42.260 of just being

00:39:43.100 so small in

00:39:44.760 the midst of

00:39:45.340 something much

00:39:46.720 larger than

00:39:47.300 yourself and

00:39:48.020 something that's

00:39:48.920 mysterious and

00:39:49.960 beyond words.

00:39:52.100 And I think that

00:39:52.900 the reason these

00:39:53.880 experiences are so

00:39:55.400 meaningful to

00:39:56.140 people and people

00:39:57.140 who've had them

00:39:58.040 say that they're

00:39:58.920 among the most

00:39:59.400 meaningful experiences

00:40:00.360 of their lives

00:40:01.760 is precisely because

00:40:03.120 they inspire such

00:40:04.420 awe.

00:40:04.920 So they make you

00:40:05.880 feel small and

00:40:07.740 tiny, but that

00:40:08.440 also means that

00:40:09.240 all of your

00:40:09.700 problems and all

00:40:11.100 of the petty

00:40:12.600 grievances of

00:40:14.500 day-to-day life

00:40:15.220 suddenly become

00:40:16.240 muted and they're

00:40:18.100 not, you know,

00:40:19.360 yelling at you

00:40:20.300 inside your mind

00:40:21.060 like they usually

00:40:21.720 are.

00:40:22.600 And instead,

00:40:23.320 what happens is

00:40:24.180 you feel this

00:40:25.300 connection with

00:40:25.900 something bigger

00:40:26.600 and therefore you

00:40:27.760 feel like you're

00:40:28.620 part and parcel

00:40:30.080 of this bigger

00:40:32.100 thing.

00:40:32.820 And that can be

00:40:33.960 really reassuring

00:40:34.760 to people.

00:40:36.080 Yeah, for me,

00:40:36.600 awe is the way I

00:40:37.660 just, how I

00:40:38.500 experience it.

00:40:39.000 I feel both

00:40:40.080 really small but

00:40:41.000 also big at the

00:40:42.080 same time.

00:40:42.600 I don't know if

00:40:42.840 that makes any

00:40:43.360 sense.

00:40:44.020 No, definitely.

00:40:44.740 That's exactly the

00:40:45.660 paradox of

00:40:46.380 transcendence that

00:40:47.380 mystics throughout

00:40:48.640 the ages have

00:40:49.400 described.

00:40:50.440 Yeah.

00:40:50.960 And so anything

00:40:51.500 you can do, I

00:40:52.400 mean, I guess

00:40:52.760 transcendence, it

00:40:53.420 takes away from

00:40:55.400 the focus off

00:40:56.340 yourself.

00:40:56.960 You become less

00:40:57.540 self-conscious.

00:40:58.260 I think with all

00:40:58.920 these things,

00:40:59.980 I think storytelling

00:41:01.600 kind of makes you

00:41:02.720 the story is you,

00:41:03.840 but like belonging

00:41:04.640 and all that stuff,

00:41:05.960 it takes the focus

00:41:06.980 off yourself and as

00:41:07.820 you do that, you

00:41:08.480 start feeling a

00:41:09.360 more sense of

00:41:10.120 meaning in your

00:41:10.820 life.

00:41:11.500 Exactly.

00:41:12.280 It's, you know,

00:41:12.760 meaning is all

00:41:13.480 about, you know,

00:41:14.400 connecting to

00:41:15.060 something other

00:41:15.620 than yourself and

00:41:16.860 even with

00:41:17.380 storytelling, even

00:41:18.360 though, yes, it

00:41:19.040 is about the

00:41:20.140 story that you

00:41:20.680 tell yourself about

00:41:22.080 who you are, there

00:41:23.520 is research showing

00:41:24.740 that when people

00:41:25.660 tell what are

00:41:27.700 called redemptive

00:41:29.020 stories about their

00:41:29.940 lives, the stories

00:41:30.940 that have, you

00:41:32.140 know, suffering and

00:41:33.080 adversity, but then

00:41:34.140 there's a silver

00:41:35.440 lining of some

00:41:36.180 sort, some sort of

00:41:37.140 growth that happens

00:41:38.160 or something good

00:41:39.020 that comes with

00:41:39.600 the adversity, that

00:41:40.860 people who tell

00:41:41.460 those kinds of

00:41:42.040 stories are more

00:41:43.460 generative, which is

00:41:44.620 the word I mentioned

00:41:45.280 earlier in relation

00:41:46.460 to Eric Erickson, and

00:41:48.060 it means that they're

00:41:48.860 more likely to

00:41:49.480 contribute to others.

00:41:50.540 So even telling a

00:41:51.380 certain kind of

00:41:51.920 story can lead you

00:41:53.440 outside of this

00:41:54.420 self-involvement

00:41:55.440 towards connecting

00:41:56.800 to others.

00:41:57.920 So do you need to

00:41:59.280 experience all these

00:42:00.700 pillars at once to

00:42:02.440 feel a sense of

00:42:03.200 meaning in your life,

00:42:03.860 or can you just

00:42:04.380 experience one of

00:42:05.500 them at a time?

00:42:07.660 You know, it's

00:42:08.640 certainly the case

00:42:09.460 that having or

00:42:11.260 experiencing all of

00:42:12.320 these pillars will

00:42:13.660 probably give you a

00:42:15.160 deeper sense of

00:42:15.840 meaning, or at

00:42:16.460 least, you know, if

00:42:17.400 one of those

00:42:19.040 pillars isn't

00:42:20.380 present, you can

00:42:21.140 lean on another

00:42:22.040 one.

00:42:22.480 But I think for

00:42:23.500 most people, there

00:42:24.460 will be one or two

00:42:25.900 of the pillars that's

00:42:27.360 more prominent and

00:42:28.840 more important for

00:42:30.160 them than the other

00:42:31.100 ones.

00:42:31.440 So, you know, maybe

00:42:32.620 for you, belonging

00:42:33.760 is really key.

00:42:35.660 And for me, it's

00:42:36.660 storytelling.

00:42:37.900 You know, I went

00:42:38.260 out and I talked to

00:42:39.620 some people in

00:42:40.720 Silicon Valley last

00:42:41.840 year about this

00:42:42.700 book.

00:42:44.260 And when I got

00:42:45.300 around to

00:42:45.740 Transcendence, I

00:42:46.740 just got these

00:42:47.920 totally blank

00:42:48.660 stares.

00:42:49.220 Like, they had no

00:42:49.940 idea what I was

00:42:50.620 talking about.

00:42:51.440 And it was kind of

00:42:52.400 funny because that

00:42:53.020 had not happened

00:42:54.040 before.

00:42:54.500 Everybody, you

00:42:55.340 know, in other

00:42:56.260 venues knew what

00:42:57.620 Transcendence was

00:42:58.340 about.

00:42:58.780 But here, in this

00:42:59.900 particular community,

00:43:00.860 for whatever

00:43:01.300 reason, that

00:43:02.280 pillar was not

00:43:03.040 resonating.

00:43:04.120 So I do think it's

00:43:05.240 kind of individual

00:43:06.260 specific which

00:43:07.580 pillar will confer

00:43:09.260 the most meaning

00:43:10.100 and be the most

00:43:10.960 important to you.

00:43:12.140 So as I was

00:43:12.780 reading your book

00:43:13.240 and as, you know,

00:43:13.880 listening to our

00:43:14.400 conversation, thinking,

00:43:16.000 man, this, like,

00:43:17.000 creating meaning

00:43:17.540 outside of religion

00:43:18.540 sounds like a lot

00:43:20.120 of work.

00:43:20.680 I mean, as you

00:43:21.020 said and mentioned

00:43:21.400 earlier, like,

00:43:22.200 religion, there's

00:43:23.240 sort of the default.

00:43:23.900 You go in and you

00:43:24.560 have that sense of

00:43:25.420 belonging because

00:43:25.880 there's a community

00:43:26.440 there that gives

00:43:27.180 you a sense of

00:43:27.760 purpose, right,

00:43:28.880 from the get-go.

00:43:29.540 There's a story

00:43:30.740 that you are

00:43:31.380 involved in.

00:43:32.220 You experience

00:43:33.000 transcendence.

00:43:33.760 It's all, like,

00:43:34.380 packaged there for

00:43:35.080 you to go.

00:43:35.640 And now, with, you

00:43:36.660 know, people being

00:43:37.280 less religious, it

00:43:38.760 sounds like, man,

00:43:39.780 it's just, it's

00:43:40.580 kind of burdensome

00:43:41.380 to, like, create

00:43:41.880 meaning.

00:43:42.200 I mean, even

00:43:42.620 Nietzsche said you

00:43:43.980 kind of had to be

00:43:44.580 some sort of

00:43:45.080 ubermensch to live

00:43:47.120 a meaningful life

00:43:48.200 in a world

00:43:49.080 post-religious.

00:43:50.200 I mean, what would

00:43:50.640 you say?

00:43:51.180 Is creating

00:43:52.020 personal meaning,

00:43:52.860 like, really hard?

00:43:53.740 It requires a lot

00:43:55.460 of work.

00:43:56.560 I do think it

00:43:57.340 takes effort, but

00:43:58.760 I don't think that

00:43:59.800 it's impossible or

00:44:01.060 even that you have

00:44:01.760 to be some kind

00:44:02.540 of, you know,

00:44:03.480 super-duper being

00:44:04.900 to make it happen.

00:44:06.840 I mean, I think

00:44:07.700 we're all engaged

00:44:08.540 in this process

00:44:09.660 of trying to

00:44:10.960 lead a meaningful

00:44:11.520 life.

00:44:11.980 And I know that

00:44:12.600 you had Jordan

00:44:13.840 Peterson on a

00:44:14.740 previous podcast,

00:44:15.500 and that's kind

00:44:17.160 of the beauty

00:44:17.660 of his message

00:44:18.320 is that we're,

00:44:19.700 the task of

00:44:21.500 each human being

00:44:22.480 is to kind

00:44:23.080 of try to

00:44:23.760 craft some

00:44:24.900 sort of meaning

00:44:25.600 and some sort

00:44:26.180 of sense out

00:44:27.080 of this crazy

00:44:28.600 experience of

00:44:29.620 being alive.

00:44:30.740 And I think

00:44:31.760 that, you know,

00:44:32.620 it's harder to

00:44:33.620 do it today

00:44:34.160 because those

00:44:35.040 traditional forms

00:44:36.180 of meaning

00:44:36.600 aren't there

00:44:37.140 to just guide

00:44:37.740 us along.

00:44:38.740 But that doesn't

00:44:39.340 mean that we

00:44:40.080 can't take the

00:44:40.880 initiative and,

00:44:42.500 you know,

00:44:43.340 figure out ways

00:44:44.060 to build these

00:44:44.700 pillars in our

00:44:45.860 lives by

00:44:46.840 ourselves.

00:44:47.520 In fact,

00:44:48.080 you know,

00:44:48.320 there's a

00:44:49.020 tradition in

00:44:49.540 philosophy,

00:44:50.360 the existentialists,

00:44:51.380 who say that

00:44:51.860 that's,

00:44:52.480 that makes

00:44:53.600 the whole

00:44:54.060 quest that

00:44:54.820 much more

00:44:55.240 exciting and

00:44:55.780 that much more

00:44:56.300 meaningful because

00:44:57.080 you're doing it

00:44:58.020 for yourself.

00:44:59.440 But it also

00:45:00.040 means that it's

00:45:00.780 much more

00:45:01.400 effortful because

00:45:02.720 no one's kind

00:45:03.640 of guiding you

00:45:04.760 along.

00:45:05.680 Yeah, you talk

00:45:06.020 about the myth

00:45:06.560 of Sisyphus is a

00:45:07.580 favorite of mine.

00:45:09.360 Who wrote,

00:45:09.640 was it Camus or

00:45:10.220 Sartre that did

00:45:10.960 that one?

00:45:11.740 Camus.

00:45:12.260 Camus, yeah.

00:45:13.640 Yeah, so for

00:45:14.300 those of you

00:45:14.600 hadn't read it,

00:45:15.000 myth of Sisyphus,

00:45:15.960 it's a good

00:45:18.640 existential thought

00:45:19.440 experiment to

00:45:20.480 check out.

00:45:20.940 Well, Emily,

00:45:22.560 this has been a

00:45:23.180 great conversation.

00:45:24.080 Where can people

00:45:24.500 go to learn more

00:45:25.320 about your work?

00:45:26.600 They can visit

00:45:27.420 my website,

00:45:28.240 which is my

00:45:28.800 name,

00:45:29.620 emilyesfahannysmith.com.

00:45:32.100 I'm also on

00:45:33.240 Twitter at

00:45:34.000 msfahannysmith,

00:45:35.560 and you can also

00:45:36.180 find me on

00:45:36.860 Facebook.

00:45:37.980 And I'll say

00:45:38.420 that on my

00:45:39.060 website,

00:45:39.600 there's a form

00:45:40.220 where you can

00:45:40.660 email me and

00:45:41.380 I, that those

00:45:42.420 emails come straight

00:45:43.120 to my inbox and

00:45:43.900 I always try to

00:45:44.660 respond.

00:45:45.280 So please feel

00:45:46.040 free to reach

00:45:46.480 out.

00:45:47.060 Awesome.

00:45:47.580 Emily Esfahannysmith,

00:45:48.520 thank you most for

00:45:49.040 your time.

00:45:49.380 It's been a

00:45:49.780 pleasure.

00:45:50.040 Thanks,

00:45:50.620 Brad.

00:45:51.100 My guest today

00:45:51.520 was Emily Esfahannysmith.

00:45:52.780 She's the author 0.99

00:45:53.280 of the book,

00:45:53.720 The Power of

00:45:54.360 Meaning.

00:45:54.760 It's available

00:45:55.060 on Amazon.com

00:45:56.060 and bookstores

00:45:56.540 everywhere.

00:45:57.160 You can also

00:45:57.380 find more

00:45:57.720 information about

00:45:58.160 her work at

00:45:58.660 emilyesfahannysmith.com.

00:46:00.700 Also check out

00:46:01.200 our show notes

00:46:01.600 at aom.is

00:46:02.640 slash power

00:46:03.360 of meaning,

00:46:03.940 where you can

00:46:04.080 find links to

00:46:04.500 resources,

00:46:05.140 where you can

00:46:05.320 delve deeper

00:46:05.760 into this topic.

00:46:06.440 Well, that

00:46:19.020 wraps up

00:46:19.420 another edition

00:46:19.980 of the Art

00:46:20.440 of Manliness

00:46:20.960 podcast.

00:46:21.580 For more

00:46:21.820 manly tips

00:46:22.260 and advice,

00:46:22.680 make sure

00:46:23.000 to check out

00:46:23.340 the Art

00:46:23.600 of Manliness

00:46:23.940 website at

00:46:24.500 artofmanliness.com.

00:46:25.480 And if you

00:46:25.720 enjoy the show,

00:46:26.340 if you've got

00:46:26.540 something out of

00:46:26.980 it, I'd

00:46:27.280 appreciate it

00:46:27.720 if you give

00:46:27.960 us a review

00:46:28.260 on iTunes

00:46:28.740 or Stitcher.

00:46:29.360 As always,

00:46:30.080 thank you for

00:46:30.620 your continued

00:46:31.020 support.

00:46:31.460 Until next time,

00:46:32.080 this is Brett

00:46:32.380 McKay telling

00:46:32.920 you to stay

00:46:33.480 manly.

00:46:34.100 Bye.

00:46:40.080 Bye.

00:46:40.760 Bye.

00:46:54.660 Bye.

00:46:57.040 Bye.

00:46:57.720 Bye.

00:46:57.920 Bye.

00:46:58.040 Bye.

The Art of Manliness - April 17, 2018

#397： Finding Fulfillment in a World Obsessed With Happiness

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