The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025


#397： Finding Fulfillment in a World Obsessed With Happiness


Episode Stats

Misogynist Sentences

2

Hate Speech Sentences

7


Summary

Emily Esvani-Smith is the author of The Power of Meaning: Finding Fulfillment in a World Obsessed with Happiness. In her book, she argues that to find meaning in life, we need to go beyond a religious or spiritual tradition.


Transcript

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00:01:07.380 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:01:26.540 In recent years, there's been a lot of books and blogs put out on how to become happier.
00:01:30.060 But what if searching for happiness actually results in unhappiness?
00:01:33.060 And to get happiness, we need to be looking for something else.
00:01:35.700 That's what my guest argues in her book.
00:01:37.260 Her name is Emily Esvani-Smith, and she's the author of the book,
00:01:40.000 The Power of Meaning, Finding Fulfillment in a World Obsessed with Happiness.
00:01:43.720 We begin our discussion today talking about the difference between happiness and meaning
00:01:46.700 and why the latter brings more fulfillment.
00:01:48.720 Emily then highlights research that shows more and more Westerners
00:01:50.980 are reporting if their life lacks meaning and theories as to why that is.
00:01:54.660 She then breaks down the three pillars of a meaningful life are
00:01:57.260 and what we can do to experience them.
00:01:59.100 Emily and I then discuss whether it's really possible to create meaning by yourself
00:02:02.380 and whether or not it requires being embedded in a religious or spiritual tradition.
00:02:05.940 After the show's over, check out the show notes at aom.is slash powerofmeaning.
00:02:09.820 Emily joins me now via clearcast.io.
00:02:26.960 Emily Esvani-Smith, welcome to the show.
00:02:29.500 Thanks for having me.
00:02:30.300 You wrote a book called The Power of Meaning,
00:02:33.380 where you look at the science, the latest research about what it means to live a meaningful life.
00:02:39.440 I'm curious, what got you started exploring the science of meaning?
00:02:43.800 So there's a long answer to that question and a short answer.
00:02:48.060 So the long answer is, I think, you know, for most of my life,
00:02:53.020 I've been interested in this question of meaning.
00:02:55.620 And it goes back to experiences that I had in my childhood.
00:03:01.500 So I was raised in Montreal, living in a Sufi meeting house.
00:03:09.980 And for those who might not know, Sufism is a school of mysticism that's associated with Islam.
00:03:18.120 So if you, the poet Rumi, many people have heard of, he was a Sufi.
00:03:22.960 The whirling dervishes were Sufis.
00:03:25.280 And living in the meeting house meant that twice a week, Sufis, these spiritual seekers,
00:03:31.080 would come to our home and they would sit on the ground and meditate for several hours.
00:03:36.120 They would tell stories from the lives of ancient Sufi saints and mystics.
00:03:42.360 And a central part of their practice was loving kindness,
00:03:46.520 a principle that's, of course, central to a lot of religious and spiritual paths,
00:03:51.320 and also service, so acts of charity.
00:03:55.500 And what was interesting about these Sufis was that, you know,
00:03:59.140 many of them had led really hard lives.
00:04:01.760 Some of them were refugees who had come to Canada or to the United States from the Middle East.
00:04:09.000 Others were Westerners who had been beaten up by life in other ways.
00:04:14.020 And in spite of the difficulties and the adversities,
00:04:18.520 they found meaning and comfort in this spiritual practice that was pretty demanding of them.
00:04:26.520 And I think growing up surrounded by people like that,
00:04:30.260 by people who always put others first,
00:04:32.360 who weren't so focused on themselves and their own desires,
00:04:36.620 left a mark on me.
00:04:38.980 And it stayed with me, you know, even after I left home and went to college.
00:04:44.320 But when I left home and I was kind of outside of that day-to-day experience of Sufism,
00:04:50.900 I started to wonder, you know,
00:04:53.920 what, is it possible to lead a meaningful life outside of a religious and spiritual context?
00:05:00.940 If you think about, you know, religion,
00:05:02.940 it gives clear answers to the question of, you know,
00:05:07.000 what is the meaning of life and how can I lead a meaningful life?
00:05:10.100 And that was certainly true of Sufism as well.
00:05:12.540 So outside of that, how do we find meaning?
00:05:15.980 And that question led me to studying philosophy
00:05:19.620 and eventually to studying positive psychology.
00:05:22.980 And this is where I get to the shorter answer to that question,
00:05:26.200 which is the science of positive psychology,
00:05:28.900 which is the study of well-being,
00:05:31.440 was starting to come out with some really provocative research
00:05:34.500 around the time that I was in graduate school,
00:05:38.520 showing things like the pursuit of happiness
00:05:41.880 is associated with being a taker rather than a giver.
00:05:46.140 And that if you kind of pursue happiness the way that our culture encourages us to do,
00:05:51.840 it can actually make you unhappy.
00:05:54.020 And so instead of pursuing happiness,
00:05:57.180 the research was kind of suggesting that we should be focusing on something else,
00:06:00.700 on living a meaningful life.
00:06:03.280 And then thinking back to the Sufis who I grew up with,
00:06:06.400 it kind of came together and made sense to me.
00:06:08.400 And so I started writing more about this.
00:06:10.340 And eventually one of my articles gave rise to the book that you mentioned,
00:06:15.560 and the power of meaning.
00:06:16.820 So let's talk about that difference between happiness and meaning.
00:06:20.840 Because as you said, yeah, in the past, I'd say, past decade,
00:06:23.560 there's been a lot of research coming out of positive psychology.
00:06:25.780 And there's been a lot of popular authors who have taken that research
00:06:29.420 and created, I don't know, you can call it a cult of happiness if you want.
00:06:33.640 There's lots of blogs, books, seminars, courses,
00:06:36.360 and all on how to be happy.
00:06:38.680 How are these folks defining happiness?
00:06:42.860 And how is that different from living a meaningful life?
00:06:47.600 Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
00:06:49.280 There's definitely been this flourishing of happiness research,
00:06:55.120 happiness books in the last decade, even in the last two decades, I would say.
00:06:59.400 And I remember one of the statistics I came across showed that, you know,
00:07:03.680 there were several dozen books published a year on happiness back in the early 2000s.
00:07:08.720 And now there are several thousand books published each year.
00:07:11.680 So there's a real, you know, zeitgeist around happiness.
00:07:15.720 People are obsessed with it.
00:07:17.260 The research shows that it's our number one value.
00:07:19.760 It's what people want most in life.
00:07:21.320 It's what people think is the be all end all of life.
00:07:24.280 And that message really bothered me because there were so many people I knew in my life,
00:07:30.340 including the people I grew up with, the Sufis, who weren't focused on leading happy lives.
00:07:34.960 They were focused on leading a meaningful life instead.
00:07:38.340 And that gets to your question about what the difference is between these two.
00:07:41.640 So I would say I define happiness drawing on, you know,
00:07:46.660 how psychologists and philosophers define it,
00:07:50.040 which is as a positive mental and emotional state.
00:07:53.660 So if you feel good, you're happy.
00:07:56.080 If you feel bad, you're unhappy.
00:07:58.360 And I know that, you know, different people might say,
00:08:01.800 well, to me, happiness is actually a state of contentment or it's leading a meaningful life.
00:08:07.440 But I define it the way that the research defines it.
00:08:11.720 And I also think that in day-to-day conversation, colloquially,
00:08:15.960 in the way the media presents all of this happiness research,
00:08:19.840 that's the way that we define it culturally as well.
00:08:23.340 You know, if you think about all those articles about how to be happier,
00:08:26.460 they're always accompanied by this big yellow smiley face.
00:08:30.080 So I think just, you know, at its face value,
00:08:32.480 happiness really is kind of this positive emotion.
00:08:36.240 Meaning, though, is different.
00:08:38.480 And I would say it's bigger than happiness.
00:08:41.400 So leading a meaningful life,
00:08:43.300 the defining feature of that is connecting and contributing
00:08:47.360 to something beyond yourself,
00:08:49.920 something bigger.
00:08:52.100 And when people tell psychologists in research that their lives are meaningful,
00:08:57.620 it's because three conditions have been satisfied.
00:09:00.860 The first one is that they believe their lives have significance and worth.
00:09:06.240 In other words, they believe their lives matter.
00:09:08.480 The second one is that they believe they have a purpose.
00:09:12.740 So some goal or principle that is in the future
00:09:16.360 and that kind of propels them into the future.
00:09:19.980 And finally, they believe their lives are coherent.
00:09:23.540 In other words,
00:09:24.460 they don't think of their experiences as random and disconnected,
00:09:28.640 but those experiences make sense,
00:09:31.520 their lives make sense,
00:09:32.940 and life in general makes sense.
00:09:35.100 So it sounds like it's possible to have a meaningful life,
00:09:38.880 but not necessarily a happy one or vice versa.
00:09:43.180 No, I think that that's exactly right.
00:09:44.960 So it certainly may be the case that, you know,
00:09:47.680 you are leading a meaningful life and you're also happy
00:09:50.500 and that, you know, you have neither in your life,
00:09:53.740 that you're neither happy and that your life isn't meaningful.
00:09:56.200 But I think for most people, day to day,
00:09:58.980 you go through phases when, you know, you feel happy,
00:10:01.780 but your life doesn't necessarily feel meaningful.
00:10:03.820 If you think about, you know,
00:10:05.920 well, let's say your work is kind of not as high pressure
00:10:10.460 as it usually is.
00:10:12.380 And so you have more free time.
00:10:14.800 And in that free time, you're, you know, going to the gym,
00:10:18.660 you're going to the spa, you're going on vacation.
00:10:20.760 And so it's kind of a fun, happy life,
00:10:22.980 but those projects that gave your life meaning aren't there.
00:10:26.800 On the other hand,
00:10:27.740 you can also be leading a meaningful life
00:10:30.340 and not be happy.
00:10:32.620 And I think a really good example of that
00:10:34.600 is Viktor Frankl, the Holocaust survivor.
00:10:38.400 So he wrote this beautiful little book
00:10:41.020 called Man's Search for Meaning,
00:10:42.740 which is all about how some of the people
00:10:45.680 in the concentration camps,
00:10:47.500 despite how horrendous their circumstances were,
00:10:51.640 were still able to find meaning,
00:10:54.640 to have some sort of purpose that kept them going.
00:10:57.440 He gives the example of, you know,
00:10:59.820 one man who was suicidal
00:11:01.220 and he only kind of came out of his suicidality
00:11:05.360 by remembering that he had a son
00:11:08.000 who was living elsewhere safely
00:11:10.420 and that he needed to kind of fight for life
00:11:13.220 so that he could survive the war
00:11:15.160 and be reunited with his son afterwards.
00:11:18.860 Yeah, that's really interesting.
00:11:19.980 I think it's an important dichotomy.
00:11:21.140 And I think this is a research Roy Baumeister
00:11:23.820 been looking at the difference
00:11:24.940 between meaning and happiness.
00:11:26.260 And he's been a guest on the podcast
00:11:27.420 before a couple of times.
00:11:29.340 Okay, yeah, he's great.
00:11:30.460 His research is fascinating.
00:11:31.920 You highlight in the book that,
00:11:33.960 so meaning is important.
00:11:34.820 It gives us a sense of purpose.
00:11:36.500 But you highlight in the book
00:11:37.200 that more and more people today
00:11:39.560 are reporting a lack of meaning in their life.
00:11:42.700 Why is that?
00:11:43.460 Why are more modern people
00:11:44.680 saying their life doesn't feel meaningful?
00:11:47.060 If you think about what it is
00:11:49.460 that has historically given people's lives meaning,
00:11:53.360 it's things like religion and spirituality,
00:11:57.260 community, tradition,
00:11:59.920 your allegiance to a country,
00:12:03.020 the sense that there is a nation
00:12:05.840 that you feel loyal towards.
00:12:08.180 And those traditional sources of meaning,
00:12:11.180 I think, are increasingly receding
00:12:13.720 from public life.
00:12:15.040 They're no longer default paths to meaning.
00:12:18.140 I mean, certainly there are people
00:12:19.520 who still use them to find meaning.
00:12:22.100 But it used to be that
00:12:23.020 these were just kind of defaults,
00:12:25.220 you know, that you didn't really
00:12:26.440 have to think too much
00:12:27.360 about what made your life meaningful
00:12:28.980 because it was programmed
00:12:30.000 into how you lived your life,
00:12:32.380 the institutions that you interacted with.
00:12:34.900 And today, I think there's a lot of
00:12:36.960 disruption that's emerged
00:12:38.840 from the fact that
00:12:39.760 these traditional forms of meaning
00:12:41.260 are no longer at the center of our lives.
00:12:44.020 And I think we see that
00:12:46.520 in the rise of mental illness
00:12:49.860 in all kinds of ways.
00:12:51.880 I mean, depression has been rising for decades,
00:12:54.500 rates of anxiety and loneliness.
00:12:56.680 Of course, the opioid epidemic
00:12:58.320 is something we hear about
00:12:59.620 in the news all the time.
00:13:01.540 Even suicide rates have been rising for decades.
00:13:04.520 And a year or two ago in 2014,
00:13:08.060 or I think it was 2016,
00:13:09.780 the CDC released a report
00:13:12.640 showing that the suicide rate
00:13:14.800 in the United States
00:13:15.940 had reached a 30-year high.
00:13:18.280 And there's pretty interesting research
00:13:19.900 that shows that when you look
00:13:21.520 at all of these rising indicators
00:13:23.940 of mental health,
00:13:25.240 excuse me, of mental illness,
00:13:27.060 that what's predicting them
00:13:29.780 is the fact that people
00:13:31.420 feel their lives are not meaningful.
00:13:34.720 And so is this a problem
00:13:35.680 that's unique to the United States
00:13:37.120 or do other Western liberal democracies
00:13:39.480 also have this problem of,
00:13:41.160 this meaning crisis?
00:13:43.080 No, this meaning crisis,
00:13:44.660 I think it's a problem of modernity.
00:13:47.740 So any Western developed countries
00:13:52.160 or developed countries around the world,
00:13:54.480 think of Japan,
00:13:55.460 are also going through this meaning crisis.
00:13:58.620 And I think that it represents,
00:14:00.960 what's going on is that
00:14:01.980 there's kind of been a shift in values.
00:14:03.760 And there's a sociologist
00:14:05.580 at the University of Michigan
00:14:07.220 who runs a project
00:14:09.520 called the World Values Survey
00:14:11.360 that really dives into this.
00:14:14.340 And what he's found is that
00:14:15.940 as societies go through
00:14:18.620 different stages of development,
00:14:21.060 you know, from pre-developed to developed
00:14:23.400 to what he calls post-developed,
00:14:25.620 they have these shifts in values that occur.
00:14:28.500 So before you reach the stage
00:14:30.300 of being a developed country,
00:14:31.900 people are really focused on survival.
00:14:33.460 And the values that come with that.
00:14:35.360 In developed countries,
00:14:36.760 the set of values that arise
00:14:38.520 tend to be materialistic
00:14:40.480 and centered around self-advancement
00:14:43.060 and wealth and happiness.
00:14:47.020 You know, it's about me and how I feel
00:14:48.780 and this kind of hedonistic lifestyle.
00:14:52.060 And what's interesting is that
00:14:53.560 this sociologist,
00:14:55.240 his last name is Inglehart,
00:14:56.940 he's found that our Western countries,
00:15:01.140 even though we are in this state
00:15:03.860 of kind of, you know,
00:15:05.000 development-oriented values
00:15:06.800 that are more materialistic,
00:15:08.600 less spiritually fulfilling,
00:15:10.880 we're now shifting into post-development
00:15:14.180 where the values are much more anchored
00:15:16.560 around these spiritual, existential ideas
00:15:20.120 like meaning, like creativity,
00:15:23.100 like knowledge and curiosity.
00:15:24.540 And I think that we see signs of that shift
00:15:27.580 happening in our culture,
00:15:29.400 the way corporations, for example,
00:15:31.340 are all of a sudden reorienting their missions
00:15:33.920 around purpose,
00:15:35.420 how schools are starting to teach character,
00:15:37.980 things like that.
00:15:38.760 So let's talk about how institutions
00:15:42.820 within modern liberal democracies
00:15:44.900 are doing this,
00:15:46.420 but outside the confines of religion.
00:15:48.180 And even though religion does still play a role
00:15:50.000 that many people still find meaning in that,
00:15:51.900 let's talk about how it's looking now.
00:15:53.800 So you'd highlight that,
00:15:54.800 you argue there are certain pillars
00:15:56.360 that need to be in place
00:15:57.640 for meaning to exist.
00:15:59.320 And the first one is belonging.
00:16:01.700 Let's talk about the issue
00:16:02.720 of not feeling like you belong.
00:16:04.400 Because that's, like you mentioned earlier,
00:16:05.620 reports of isolation, loneliness are on the rise,
00:16:10.320 despite the fact that we're more connected than ever.
00:16:12.900 What do you think's going on there?
00:16:15.380 It's a really sad statistic.
00:16:17.580 And one of the saddest ones
00:16:19.860 that I write about in my book is,
00:16:22.140 you know, when researchers ask people
00:16:24.820 20, 30 years ago,
00:16:26.500 how many confidants do you have in your life?
00:16:29.400 How many people that you feel comfortable
00:16:31.240 talking to about the most important issues?
00:16:33.820 You know, decades ago,
00:16:35.960 several decades ago,
00:16:36.920 people said three people.
00:16:39.100 Today, when you ask that same question,
00:16:41.260 the most common response is zero.
00:16:44.160 And, you know, I mentioned the statistics
00:16:47.040 about rising rates of loneliness.
00:16:48.860 There's also a breakdown
00:16:49.700 in civic institutions and community.
00:16:52.320 People don't talk to their neighbors anymore.
00:16:54.700 And, you know, there's,
00:16:56.500 I think there are really interesting sociological reasons
00:16:58.780 that are driving this.
00:16:59.660 I remember reading a study several years ago
00:17:02.000 talking about the rise of urbanization
00:17:04.000 and how, you know,
00:17:05.640 a story that you can tell
00:17:07.280 about the United States
00:17:08.620 over the last 200 years
00:17:09.760 is the story of people moving
00:17:11.280 from more rural settings
00:17:12.960 to the big cities to find work
00:17:15.280 and to make a new home and a new life.
00:17:17.940 And what's accompanied that
00:17:19.280 has been a rise in individualism.
00:17:22.140 So, you know,
00:17:23.120 a shift in values
00:17:24.240 from community and duty
00:17:26.980 and responsibility
00:17:27.860 to, you know,
00:17:30.940 free expression,
00:17:32.940 self-esteem,
00:17:34.460 self-expression.
00:17:36.440 These are things that Roy Baumeister
00:17:37.880 writes about
00:17:38.940 and thinks about,
00:17:39.940 as I'm sure you know.
00:17:41.420 And so I think that
00:17:42.160 this rising individualism
00:17:43.660 that has these sociological causes
00:17:46.900 is one of the reasons
00:17:48.540 why we've seen this isolation
00:17:50.140 because individualism is great
00:17:51.960 and it comes with all kinds of benefits
00:17:54.260 like freedom and autonomy
00:17:56.240 and control over your personal life,
00:17:58.200 but it also divorces us
00:18:00.940 from that community
00:18:02.360 where we have this sense of belonging
00:18:05.360 that can ground us.
00:18:07.360 And, you know,
00:18:09.500 that's one of the reasons
00:18:11.460 why I think we're seeing
00:18:12.580 this rise in social isolation,
00:18:14.040 but we're also seeing, again,
00:18:16.200 kind of a trend
00:18:17.920 in the opposite direction as well,
00:18:19.660 where recognizing
00:18:20.860 that this is a problem,
00:18:22.200 you see a lot of communities
00:18:23.720 and institutions
00:18:24.480 trying to create community
00:18:27.220 and belonging
00:18:28.060 in new ways for people
00:18:29.780 that gets them talking
00:18:31.020 to each other again.
00:18:32.920 And so does this sense of community,
00:18:34.400 does it need to be face-to-face
00:18:36.400 like in the real world
00:18:38.520 or is it possible to do it virtually?
00:18:41.280 Or is virtually, you know,
00:18:42.080 virtually like that's not possible.
00:18:43.540 That's why people feel lonely
00:18:45.400 despite being connected.
00:18:47.060 You know, I think that,
00:18:48.420 I think it's easy to criticize
00:18:50.160 social media
00:18:51.200 for exacerbating this problem,
00:18:54.960 but I think that,
00:18:57.360 I think there's more to it than that.
00:18:58.880 I mean, certainly people can find
00:19:00.840 a sense of belonging
00:19:01.720 on social media
00:19:02.780 if they're intentional
00:19:03.860 about the way they use it.
00:19:05.540 I, you know,
00:19:06.480 I was talking about this
00:19:07.960 at an event in Texas last year
00:19:11.320 and, you know,
00:19:12.720 this question came up
00:19:13.800 and a woman, you know,
00:19:15.780 raised her hand.
00:19:16.620 She was sitting in the back
00:19:17.620 of the bookstore
00:19:18.160 and she, you know,
00:19:20.460 she was in her 80s
00:19:21.740 and she told me,
00:19:22.840 she said, you know,
00:19:23.760 my purpose right now
00:19:25.500 is to put together
00:19:27.380 a family history
00:19:28.960 that's this book
00:19:30.200 that I want to be able
00:19:31.920 to pass down to my children
00:19:33.300 and grandchildren
00:19:34.040 and for it to be this record
00:19:35.800 of who we were.
00:19:38.020 And the way that I've been able
00:19:39.880 to fill out the different parts
00:19:42.440 of my family tree
00:19:43.420 is by going online
00:19:45.120 and turning to Facebook
00:19:46.380 and other social media sites
00:19:48.260 to find people
00:19:49.480 who are in our family
00:19:50.400 who I wouldn't have known before.
00:19:52.040 So, you know,
00:19:52.900 she used this wonderful technology
00:19:54.800 to kind of create
00:19:55.780 this sense of belonging
00:19:57.320 within her family
00:19:58.200 and to form new connections
00:19:59.360 and new forms of belonging
00:20:01.020 with people
00:20:01.720 she didn't even know before.
00:20:03.420 That said,
00:20:04.260 I think that if you're only relying
00:20:06.000 on, you know,
00:20:07.380 these virtual forms of connection,
00:20:09.160 then there's going to be something
00:20:10.340 that's missing from your life.
00:20:12.280 There's research
00:20:13.320 that shows that
00:20:14.680 there is something
00:20:15.820 about the kind of
00:20:17.220 kinetic, visceral interaction
00:20:19.700 that you have
00:20:20.340 with somebody face-to-face
00:20:22.300 that really kind of
00:20:23.780 replenishes you
00:20:24.920 both psychologically
00:20:25.800 and physically.
00:20:27.000 There are actually
00:20:27.380 kind of physical benefits
00:20:28.640 to having these
00:20:29.600 moments of belonging
00:20:31.280 and connection
00:20:32.020 with somebody else.
00:20:33.620 You know,
00:20:33.860 your brain waves
00:20:35.060 actually kind of
00:20:36.000 get on the same wavelength.
00:20:38.140 Your heart rate
00:20:39.600 and your hormone levels
00:20:41.040 can kind of rise
00:20:42.300 and fall together.
00:20:43.500 So it's really interesting
00:20:44.700 and I think it shows
00:20:45.600 that there is something
00:20:46.460 vitally important
00:20:47.640 about the face-to-face
00:20:48.640 connections too.
00:20:50.160 So maybe use
00:20:50.900 social media technology
00:20:52.680 to, you know,
00:20:53.760 organize.
00:20:54.300 I think that's what I find
00:20:55.260 the most benefit
00:20:55.680 of social media
00:20:56.060 is organizing
00:20:56.600 face-to-face meetups.
00:20:58.500 Right, right.
00:20:59.140 Exactly.
00:20:59.900 And I think, you know,
00:21:02.120 you know,
00:21:02.400 celebrating other people's
00:21:03.860 good news
00:21:04.520 and keeping in touch
00:21:05.300 with people,
00:21:06.080 those kind of more
00:21:06.700 basic forms,
00:21:07.840 functions of social media,
00:21:09.120 I think those can also
00:21:10.320 cultivate belonging
00:21:11.460 in smaller ways.
00:21:13.720 But there is a price
00:21:15.400 to pay, you know,
00:21:16.700 with a sense of belonging.
00:21:17.600 You get all these benefits,
00:21:18.340 but, you know,
00:21:18.620 it does require you
00:21:19.800 to go out of your way
00:21:21.340 for folks that,
00:21:22.220 you know,
00:21:22.920 you'd rather not.
00:21:23.560 You're just like,
00:21:23.880 well, you know,
00:21:24.420 I'm comfortable here.
00:21:25.460 Do I really want to go over
00:21:26.740 and help my friend move?
00:21:29.360 Like, I mean,
00:21:30.220 I think that's why
00:21:30.760 one of the reasons
00:21:31.740 people, you know,
00:21:33.600 tend to be individualistic
00:21:34.740 because it's, you know,
00:21:35.480 it's hard work
00:21:36.320 to socialize
00:21:37.500 and be connected with others.
00:21:39.120 You're 100% right
00:21:40.740 about that.
00:21:41.600 And I would just say
00:21:42.860 that, you know,
00:21:44.260 one of the things
00:21:46.240 that you see
00:21:47.040 when you look at
00:21:48.520 the articles
00:21:49.220 and the research
00:21:49.860 about happiness
00:21:50.500 is that there's this
00:21:51.740 real quick fix mentality
00:21:53.400 like, okay,
00:21:54.560 if you just do
00:21:55.200 these three things
00:21:56.060 or check off
00:21:56.620 these five boxes,
00:21:57.820 you'll be happier
00:21:58.740 and then your life
00:22:00.340 will be so much better.
00:22:01.700 And it's not quite like that
00:22:03.120 with a meaningful life.
00:22:04.520 A meaningful life
00:22:05.200 definitely takes work.
00:22:06.540 It requires effort
00:22:07.460 and it's because,
00:22:09.960 you know,
00:22:11.060 it requires us
00:22:12.440 to do things
00:22:12.980 exactly like you're saying,
00:22:14.000 like reaching out
00:22:14.880 to others,
00:22:15.500 making ourselves vulnerable,
00:22:17.140 turning down
00:22:17.740 our own natural selfishness
00:22:19.840 to be of service
00:22:21.380 to somebody else.
00:22:22.300 And that's not always easy,
00:22:23.820 but it does leave us
00:22:25.820 with this greater sense
00:22:27.220 of satisfaction
00:22:27.920 down the road.
00:22:29.040 And I know that
00:22:29.520 we all know
00:22:29.940 from experience
00:22:30.620 the things
00:22:31.240 that are most worth having
00:22:33.180 are the things
00:22:33.860 that are the hardest
00:22:35.060 to work for.
00:22:36.640 Yeah.
00:22:36.820 And my experience
00:22:37.580 has been whenever
00:22:38.180 I've had that resistance
00:22:39.640 where I'm like,
00:22:40.300 ah,
00:22:40.680 I don't want to do this thing
00:22:42.100 because it's going to be annoying.
00:22:45.220 Then you go to it
00:22:46.200 and you have a great time
00:22:47.720 and afterwards you're like,
00:22:48.680 man,
00:22:48.820 I'm really glad I did that.
00:22:50.280 That I feel,
00:22:51.080 you feel happy,
00:22:51.920 but also you feel
00:22:53.180 like you did something meaningful.
00:22:54.760 Right,
00:22:55.100 right.
00:22:55.440 No,
00:22:55.640 exactly.
00:22:56.520 I have a psychology professor
00:22:57.660 in grad school
00:22:58.360 who used to see
00:22:59.900 patients clinically
00:23:00.960 and he saw
00:23:02.080 a lot of depression,
00:23:03.940 people who are experiencing
00:23:05.080 depression,
00:23:05.760 suffering from it.
00:23:06.640 And he said that,
00:23:07.580 you know,
00:23:08.080 far more effective
00:23:08.880 than prescribing them
00:23:10.500 an antidepressant
00:23:11.620 was prescribing them
00:23:13.080 to go out
00:23:13.720 and volunteer
00:23:14.300 in their community
00:23:15.320 because once they got involved,
00:23:17.440 once they broke
00:23:18.280 that shell
00:23:19.300 of kind of,
00:23:20.400 you know,
00:23:20.680 self-focus
00:23:21.500 and self-rumination
00:23:24.160 on what was wrong
00:23:25.020 with me,
00:23:25.360 what's wrong
00:23:25.640 with the world,
00:23:26.760 they not only felt
00:23:28.220 their lives
00:23:28.620 were more meaningful,
00:23:29.320 but they also felt happier
00:23:30.580 because they were out there
00:23:31.580 doing things
00:23:32.420 and that made them feel useful.
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00:25:20.120 And now back to the show.
00:25:21.900 Yeah.
00:25:22.440 So let's talk about
00:25:23.160 the next pillar,
00:25:23.820 which is purpose.
00:25:25.140 What are we talking about
00:25:26.420 when we're talking
00:25:27.620 about a purpose?
00:25:28.280 Is it like,
00:25:28.600 how do you some like
00:25:29.120 grand, giant thing
00:25:30.420 like I'm going to change
00:25:31.060 the world
00:25:31.560 or can it be smaller?
00:25:33.440 So definitely,
00:25:34.340 I think a lot of people
00:25:35.240 when they think about purpose,
00:25:36.400 they think of that
00:25:37.080 big capital P purpose
00:25:39.040 that they need to find,
00:25:40.200 their capital C calling.
00:25:41.860 Once they find it,
00:25:42.960 that for the rest
00:25:43.900 of their lives,
00:25:44.540 they'll have this
00:25:45.160 really strong sense of meaning.
00:25:46.680 But, you know,
00:25:48.000 for most people,
00:25:48.820 that's not what purpose
00:25:49.900 is going to look like.
00:25:51.180 In fact,
00:25:52.120 only one third of people,
00:25:53.860 according to the research,
00:25:55.540 have this feeling
00:25:57.900 of their job
00:25:59.660 is a calling,
00:26:00.980 this sense of,
00:26:02.260 you know,
00:26:02.500 I have found
00:26:03.360 my capital P purpose.
00:26:05.340 And for the rest of us,
00:26:07.000 you know,
00:26:07.340 we're going to find purpose
00:26:08.380 in kind of smaller,
00:26:09.740 more local ways.
00:26:11.540 And so, you know,
00:26:12.180 what is purpose?
00:26:12.880 Purpose is,
00:26:14.300 it's defined as a goal
00:26:16.540 or a principle
00:26:17.420 that organizes your life
00:26:19.840 and that involves
00:26:20.760 making a contribution
00:26:22.060 to others.
00:26:23.340 So for one person,
00:26:24.360 it might be something like
00:26:25.420 working on a cure for cancer.
00:26:27.200 That's a purpose
00:26:28.280 and it's this big purpose.
00:26:29.960 For another person,
00:26:30.780 it could be,
00:26:31.440 you know,
00:26:31.920 raising their children,
00:26:33.440 being a good person,
00:26:35.020 volunteering in their community.
00:26:37.020 I spoke to a woman
00:26:38.320 who was working
00:26:39.760 as a custodian
00:26:41.860 at a hospital
00:26:42.680 in Michigan
00:26:43.860 and she told me
00:26:45.580 that her purpose
00:26:46.280 is not cleaning bedpans
00:26:48.520 and mopping the floor,
00:26:49.740 but it's helping
00:26:50.520 sick people heal.
00:26:53.160 So there's something
00:26:54.080 about purpose
00:26:54.620 that, yes,
00:26:55.740 it can come in all shapes
00:26:56.620 and sizes,
00:26:57.140 but it also involves
00:26:58.360 connecting what you're doing
00:26:59.800 to something bigger.
00:27:02.160 Yeah.
00:27:02.440 I mean,
00:27:02.620 I think you,
00:27:03.200 I think you raised this point
00:27:04.440 about,
00:27:05.140 I forgot which philosopher
00:27:06.580 or psychologist
00:27:07.360 I talked about,
00:27:07.760 you know,
00:27:07.900 people who back in the 30s
00:27:09.900 during the Great Depression
00:27:10.820 were just,
00:27:11.780 you know,
00:27:12.320 suicide was increasing
00:27:13.360 and the sense of meaningless
00:27:14.100 was increasing
00:27:15.100 and one of the vices
00:27:16.660 is like,
00:27:16.920 just go get a job.
00:27:17.820 It can be anything
00:27:18.760 and you start there
00:27:20.500 and it might not be grand,
00:27:23.200 but like you have that purpose
00:27:24.220 for that day
00:27:25.160 because you're contributing
00:27:26.800 in some small way
00:27:27.880 to other people.
00:27:29.080 Exactly.
00:27:29.540 I think,
00:27:29.920 I think it was,
00:27:30.860 it was the chapter
00:27:31.600 where I talk about
00:27:32.460 Will Durant,
00:27:33.640 who's a beautiful writer
00:27:35.740 and historian
00:27:36.360 in his own right
00:27:37.400 and he talks about,
00:27:39.500 you know,
00:27:39.780 even,
00:27:40.260 you know,
00:27:40.420 if you feel this sense
00:27:41.820 of despair
00:27:42.900 and lethargy
00:27:45.080 and,
00:27:45.740 you know,
00:27:46.340 alienation from the world,
00:27:47.900 just doing something,
00:27:49.800 anything,
00:27:50.700 even if it's volunteering,
00:27:52.140 even if you're not getting paid,
00:27:53.440 you know,
00:27:53.720 whatever,
00:27:54.660 going,
00:27:55.240 you know,
00:27:55.440 getting a job
00:27:55.980 at the local coffee shop
00:27:57.680 is the first step
00:27:59.300 towards finding
00:28:01.200 that meaning
00:28:01.980 that can sustain you
00:28:03.380 and it's because
00:28:04.200 it re-engages you
00:28:05.500 with the world.
00:28:06.760 So purpose,
00:28:07.540 another way to think
00:28:08.200 about purpose
00:28:08.760 is that
00:28:09.380 it's having a role
00:28:10.900 to play
00:28:11.640 in your community,
00:28:13.020 within your family
00:28:14.040 and when people feel
00:28:15.340 like they don't have
00:28:16.060 a role to play
00:28:16.800 when suddenly,
00:28:17.680 you know,
00:28:18.240 parents become
00:28:18.980 empty nesters
00:28:19.880 or you lose your job
00:28:21.300 or you retire,
00:28:22.580 then that's when people
00:28:23.580 experience a crisis
00:28:24.520 of purpose.
00:28:25.000 So it's important
00:28:25.880 to kind of,
00:28:26.700 you know,
00:28:27.180 quickly
00:28:27.880 reassert those roles
00:28:30.240 in your life
00:28:30.920 in new ways
00:28:31.620 or find new roles.
00:28:33.780 And so how do you,
00:28:35.300 let's say you,
00:28:36.000 you're starting
00:28:36.400 from scratch,
00:28:37.020 right?
00:28:37.300 You're,
00:28:37.640 you're,
00:28:38.020 you know,
00:28:38.480 having some
00:28:39.060 existential depression,
00:28:40.140 you get a job
00:28:41.180 and that's helping
00:28:41.740 you engage
00:28:42.320 with the world.
00:28:42.980 How do you start
00:28:44.020 finding that larger purpose?
00:28:45.700 Is it something
00:28:46.240 that you can actively
00:28:47.200 find,
00:28:48.220 proactively find
00:28:48.920 or is it something
00:28:49.440 that as you
00:28:51.120 engage with the world,
00:28:52.380 you'll sort of stumble upon?
00:28:54.200 I think,
00:28:54.800 I think it can be both
00:28:55.820 and I think that
00:28:56.460 one of the,
00:28:57.260 the mistakes
00:28:58.800 that we might make
00:28:59.640 when we think about purpose
00:29:00.620 is overthinking it.
00:29:02.520 So,
00:29:03.080 you know,
00:29:03.560 purpose is really about
00:29:04.960 figuring out
00:29:06.380 what your,
00:29:06.960 your talents are,
00:29:08.040 what your strengths are
00:29:09.360 and how you can use them
00:29:10.880 to serve the world
00:29:12.200 and to serve others.
00:29:13.500 I,
00:29:13.800 I believe,
00:29:14.640 and you know,
00:29:15.580 I,
00:29:15.840 I think I'm in good company
00:29:17.020 with,
00:29:17.440 with a lot of other philosophers
00:29:19.000 from Emmanuel Kant
00:29:20.360 to Viktor Frankl
00:29:21.140 who we talked about
00:29:21.940 that everybody here
00:29:23.560 has some sort of purpose.
00:29:25.520 In other words,
00:29:26.160 they have some contribution
00:29:28.120 that they can make
00:29:29.540 to the world
00:29:30.400 and that's,
00:29:31.480 what that contribution is,
00:29:32.900 is their choice.
00:29:34.100 I think it's not necessarily
00:29:35.520 predetermined.
00:29:37.120 Now,
00:29:37.220 some people might be born
00:29:38.360 with a calling
00:29:39.060 for music
00:29:39.780 or for computer science
00:29:42.000 or whatever the case may be
00:29:43.180 but for those of us
00:29:44.200 who are just trying
00:29:44.740 to figure it out,
00:29:46.120 you know,
00:29:46.680 sit down
00:29:47.960 and reflect on
00:29:48.800 what your strengths
00:29:49.420 and talents are
00:29:50.240 and then see
00:29:51.460 if you can find
00:29:52.820 ways to put them
00:29:53.960 to use
00:29:54.420 either in what you're doing
00:29:55.480 or in new context.
00:29:57.120 Research shows that
00:29:58.240 when you use
00:29:59.680 your strengths
00:30:00.300 and talents
00:30:00.960 in the work you're doing,
00:30:02.240 it doesn't matter
00:30:02.660 what that work is,
00:30:03.640 you feel a greater
00:30:04.860 sense of purpose
00:30:05.780 to that work
00:30:06.660 because you're kind of
00:30:07.380 taking the best in you
00:30:08.520 and giving it to the world.
00:30:10.900 So,
00:30:11.300 so I think that,
00:30:12.620 you know,
00:30:12.900 you can kind of
00:30:14.060 actively
00:30:14.820 figure out
00:30:16.380 and pursue
00:30:16.780 what your purpose is
00:30:17.480 or you can kind of
00:30:19.140 just be out there
00:30:20.440 in the world,
00:30:21.380 you know,
00:30:21.660 giving to it,
00:30:22.320 using your strengths
00:30:23.160 and seeing if that
00:30:24.300 kind of
00:30:25.120 from the ground up
00:30:26.320 gives you this
00:30:26.980 sense of purpose.
00:30:27.900 It sounds like
00:30:29.920 you can have
00:30:30.380 more than one purpose,
00:30:31.960 right?
00:30:32.300 Is that true?
00:30:33.180 It is true.
00:30:33.960 So,
00:30:34.640 you know,
00:30:34.880 there's a psychologist
00:30:36.000 named Eric Erickson
00:30:37.080 who was,
00:30:38.680 was,
00:30:39.300 was alive
00:30:40.000 in the 20th century
00:30:40.900 and he
00:30:41.600 had this idea
00:30:43.060 of life
00:30:44.000 as a series
00:30:45.120 of developmental stages.
00:30:47.000 So,
00:30:47.620 you know,
00:30:47.820 when you're young,
00:30:48.600 your,
00:30:49.020 your job is to figure out
00:30:50.420 who you are,
00:30:51.920 what your identity is.
00:30:53.120 As you get older,
00:30:54.200 your job is to
00:30:55.760 become
00:30:56.680 what he calls
00:30:57.580 generative.
00:30:58.620 In other words,
00:30:59.160 contributing to
00:31:00.200 the younger generations,
00:31:01.640 whether it's by mentoring
00:31:02.660 people or raising children
00:31:03.960 or what have you.
00:31:05.540 And so,
00:31:06.340 baked into that idea
00:31:07.460 is this sense that
00:31:08.660 as our lives
00:31:09.760 change and develop
00:31:10.740 and as we grow,
00:31:11.940 the things that
00:31:12.740 we're supposed to be doing
00:31:14.020 and that give our lives
00:31:14.900 purpose can change as well.
00:31:16.680 So,
00:31:16.900 I mentioned parenting,
00:31:17.820 you know,
00:31:17.980 for many parents,
00:31:18.820 like their kids
00:31:19.400 are their main source
00:31:20.280 of purpose
00:31:21.000 and,
00:31:21.720 you know,
00:31:22.400 that,
00:31:22.640 that's kind of
00:31:23.460 a prominent source
00:31:24.120 of purpose
00:31:24.520 in middle age.
00:31:26.480 But then,
00:31:26.820 once your kids
00:31:27.460 leave the house,
00:31:28.160 once you retire,
00:31:29.540 your purpose might be
00:31:30.620 something else.
00:31:31.340 It might be
00:31:32.080 becoming involved
00:31:33.040 in your religious
00:31:34.040 organization
00:31:34.980 or finding
00:31:36.780 a second purpose.
00:31:37.980 I read about
00:31:38.560 this organization
00:31:39.200 called Encore
00:31:40.240 that helps people
00:31:41.800 who are retired
00:31:42.640 embark upon
00:31:44.680 kind of a whole
00:31:45.380 new career.
00:31:46.900 So,
00:31:47.140 you have a police officer
00:31:48.200 who then retires
00:31:50.380 and decides
00:31:51.160 that he wants
00:31:51.660 to start creating
00:31:52.560 museum art
00:31:53.560 because being
00:31:54.680 an artist
00:31:55.100 was this passion
00:31:56.240 that he had
00:31:56.800 that he,
00:31:57.360 you know,
00:31:57.820 wasn't able
00:31:58.260 to fulfill
00:31:58.900 during the earlier
00:32:00.840 parts of his life.
00:32:01.980 So,
00:32:02.320 certainly it can
00:32:02.900 change over time.
00:32:04.720 So,
00:32:04.840 the next pillar
00:32:05.420 you talk about
00:32:05.920 is storytelling.
00:32:07.080 What role does
00:32:07.780 that play
00:32:08.260 in creating
00:32:09.260 a meaningful life?
00:32:10.840 So,
00:32:11.400 storytelling
00:32:11.520 is an interesting
00:32:13.300 pillar
00:32:13.700 and I found
00:32:15.120 that when I go
00:32:16.020 out and I talk
00:32:16.760 to people
00:32:17.160 about this pillar,
00:32:18.600 it's one of the
00:32:19.540 ones that resonates
00:32:20.580 with them
00:32:21.240 most strongly
00:32:22.160 and also
00:32:22.880 can surprise
00:32:24.120 them.
00:32:25.300 So,
00:32:25.960 storytelling.
00:32:26.600 So,
00:32:26.940 you know,
00:32:27.120 we think
00:32:27.460 we're surrounded
00:32:28.160 by stories
00:32:29.120 all day long,
00:32:30.360 right?
00:32:30.680 You know,
00:32:30.960 we have movie theaters,
00:32:32.260 we have television shows,
00:32:33.580 novels,
00:32:34.680 you know,
00:32:35.000 comic strips,
00:32:36.040 children's books,
00:32:36.800 there are stories
00:32:37.500 all around us.
00:32:38.400 But the story
00:32:39.440 that I am talking
00:32:40.520 about with this pillar
00:32:41.840 is the story
00:32:43.540 that you tell
00:32:44.400 yourself
00:32:45.080 about yourself,
00:32:46.540 about how you
00:32:47.360 became the person
00:32:48.860 that you are today.
00:32:49.760 And I think
00:32:51.560 my intuition
00:32:52.280 is that the reason
00:32:53.280 this pillar
00:32:54.200 surprises people
00:32:55.800 is because
00:32:56.800 we don't always
00:32:57.820 realize that we
00:32:58.700 have this
00:32:59.280 ongoing narrative
00:33:00.200 going on in our
00:33:01.560 mind at all times
00:33:03.260 and that
00:33:04.320 because,
00:33:05.360 you know,
00:33:05.620 this narrative
00:33:06.080 is going on
00:33:06.660 in our mind
00:33:07.000 at all times,
00:33:08.280 it's shaping
00:33:09.360 our lives
00:33:10.020 in ways that
00:33:10.440 we don't realize
00:33:11.100 it.
00:33:11.780 And we also
00:33:13.000 have the power
00:33:13.780 to change
00:33:14.940 that story
00:33:15.720 if it's a story
00:33:16.900 that we don't like.
00:33:18.360 So,
00:33:18.760 let me give you
00:33:19.160 an example.
00:33:19.760 So,
00:33:19.920 the field
00:33:20.220 of psychology
00:33:20.800 that deals
00:33:21.280 with this
00:33:21.680 is called
00:33:22.220 narrative psychology,
00:33:23.720 narrative identity.
00:33:25.180 Okay,
00:33:25.340 so there's
00:33:25.620 this device
00:33:26.260 in narrative
00:33:27.720 psychology
00:33:28.340 that helps
00:33:29.620 illustrate the
00:33:30.280 power of
00:33:30.920 storytelling.
00:33:31.880 So,
00:33:32.260 let's say
00:33:32.780 you had
00:33:34.340 a really
00:33:35.260 important interview
00:33:36.040 this morning
00:33:36.860 and you,
00:33:38.880 you know,
00:33:39.400 you went to,
00:33:40.340 you know,
00:33:40.620 you went to bed
00:33:41.060 early for it
00:33:41.940 and you were
00:33:42.800 really excited
00:33:43.820 for it,
00:33:44.480 but when the
00:33:45.320 morning came
00:33:45.800 around,
00:33:46.700 you slept
00:33:47.860 through your
00:33:48.460 alarm
00:33:49.020 because,
00:33:49.960 you know,
00:33:50.260 you just,
00:33:50.860 you're so tired
00:33:51.740 and,
00:33:52.960 you know,
00:33:53.320 finally you get
00:33:54.060 up and you're
00:33:54.460 in a rush
00:33:55.060 and you're
00:33:55.640 trying to make
00:33:56.440 up for the
00:33:56.820 time that you
00:33:57.280 lost and
00:33:57.980 you're rushing
00:33:58.380 at the door
00:33:58.940 and you realize
00:33:59.980 that your car
00:34:00.620 keys aren't
00:34:01.640 where you
00:34:02.720 left them.
00:34:03.300 and so all
00:34:04.320 of a sudden
00:34:04.640 you're even
00:34:05.480 later than
00:34:06.180 you were
00:34:06.640 because you
00:34:07.120 can't find
00:34:07.540 your keys
00:34:08.020 and you
00:34:09.100 rummage
00:34:09.400 around and
00:34:10.000 finally you
00:34:10.520 find those
00:34:10.900 keys and
00:34:12.280 you make
00:34:13.000 your way
00:34:13.220 out the
00:34:13.500 door and
00:34:14.160 it's,
00:34:14.580 you know,
00:34:14.900 really icy
00:34:15.480 outside and
00:34:16.520 you had
00:34:16.800 meant to
00:34:17.160 salt your
00:34:17.560 steps the
00:34:18.080 day before
00:34:18.580 but you
00:34:18.980 didn't and
00:34:19.860 so the
00:34:20.660 steps are
00:34:20.960 all slippery
00:34:21.380 and you
00:34:21.840 fall down
00:34:22.220 the stairs
00:34:22.700 and not
00:34:23.620 only are
00:34:23.980 you late
00:34:24.380 but you're
00:34:24.640 also kind
00:34:25.100 of wet
00:34:25.580 and injured
00:34:26.400 and the
00:34:27.360 morning is
00:34:27.700 just off to
00:34:28.100 a disastrous
00:34:28.540 start.
00:34:29.900 So those
00:34:31.160 are three
00:34:31.660 data points
00:34:32.400 from your
00:34:32.800 morning,
00:34:33.220 right?
00:34:33.500 So you
00:34:34.140 wake up
00:34:34.840 late,
00:34:35.660 you lose
00:34:36.280 your car
00:34:36.680 keys and
00:34:37.360 you slip
00:34:37.760 and fall
00:34:38.240 and then
00:34:39.640 you take
00:34:40.060 those data
00:34:40.860 points and
00:34:41.420 you start
00:34:41.720 constructing a
00:34:42.620 story about
00:34:43.340 the kind of
00:34:43.820 person you
00:34:44.300 are.
00:34:44.660 You say,
00:34:45.260 man,
00:34:45.720 you know,
00:34:46.180 I don't have
00:34:47.260 my life
00:34:47.660 together,
00:34:48.280 I can't do
00:34:48.780 anything right,
00:34:50.180 this is why
00:34:50.980 nobody will
00:34:51.820 marry me,
00:34:52.580 this is why
00:34:53.280 I'm not going
00:34:54.060 to get that
00:34:54.440 job that I'm
00:34:55.000 interviewing for,
00:34:56.240 my life sucks
00:34:57.180 and the world
00:34:57.960 sucks and it's
00:34:59.020 just terrible
00:34:59.800 or you could,
00:35:01.900 you know,
00:35:02.400 reflect on
00:35:03.440 your morning
00:35:04.360 or your week
00:35:05.300 and think
00:35:06.100 about all
00:35:06.740 those other
00:35:07.280 data points
00:35:08.100 that you're
00:35:09.000 not incorporating
00:35:10.020 into your
00:35:10.640 story.
00:35:11.600 Like,
00:35:12.200 maybe you
00:35:13.420 couldn't find
00:35:15.640 your car keys
00:35:16.340 the night
00:35:16.560 before because
00:35:17.260 you would put
00:35:17.940 them in your
00:35:18.640 coat pocket
00:35:19.320 the night
00:35:19.640 before thinking
00:35:20.780 that,
00:35:21.400 okay,
00:35:21.520 if they're
00:35:21.780 in my
00:35:22.100 coat,
00:35:22.860 then I
00:35:23.660 will just
00:35:24.420 put my
00:35:24.680 coat on
00:35:25.040 and rush
00:35:25.380 out the
00:35:25.640 door and
00:35:26.180 it'll make
00:35:26.580 things more
00:35:26.980 efficient,
00:35:27.500 but you
00:35:27.720 forgot that
00:35:28.200 you did
00:35:28.480 that,
00:35:29.200 but it
00:35:29.620 was something
00:35:29.940 you did
00:35:30.380 that,
00:35:30.680 you know,
00:35:31.060 that showed
00:35:31.760 some foresight
00:35:32.760 and showed
00:35:33.100 that you
00:35:33.300 were trying
00:35:33.800 and,
00:35:34.840 you know,
00:35:35.380 maybe you
00:35:35.920 didn't salt
00:35:36.800 the stairs
00:35:37.340 last night
00:35:38.040 because you
00:35:38.420 were busy
00:35:38.880 helping your
00:35:39.540 neighbor bring
00:35:40.540 her groceries
00:35:41.220 in and then
00:35:42.020 time ran
00:35:42.580 out.
00:35:43.260 And so
00:35:43.540 thinking about
00:35:44.420 those other
00:35:45.280 data points
00:35:45.940 and incorporating
00:35:46.680 those into
00:35:47.480 your story
00:35:48.080 as well,
00:35:48.940 that's what
00:35:49.380 storytelling really
00:35:50.200 is about.
00:35:50.820 It's taking
00:35:51.660 the full picture
00:35:52.640 and telling a
00:35:53.780 story that
00:35:54.340 empowers you
00:35:55.220 and that moves
00:35:55.780 you forward.
00:35:56.340 But how
00:35:57.400 do you
00:35:57.600 with these
00:35:57.940 stories,
00:35:58.660 how do
00:35:59.000 you make
00:35:59.320 sure you're
00:35:59.600 not fooling
00:36:00.540 yourself with
00:36:01.960 them to
00:36:02.380 create that
00:36:03.000 meaning or
00:36:03.280 do you have
00:36:04.040 to fool
00:36:04.360 yourself to
00:36:05.600 sometimes fool
00:36:06.400 yourself to
00:36:06.780 create meaning
00:36:07.420 out of our
00:36:08.380 lives?
00:36:09.260 That's a
00:36:09.880 great question
00:36:10.540 and I think
00:36:12.000 that one way
00:36:13.020 to think about
00:36:13.640 it is like
00:36:14.480 this.
00:36:14.960 So human
00:36:15.580 beings have
00:36:16.840 a really
00:36:17.480 strong
00:36:18.220 negativity
00:36:19.080 bias.
00:36:19.920 It's kind
00:36:20.200 of been shown
00:36:20.800 consistently in
00:36:21.560 the research
00:36:22.140 and Roy
00:36:23.440 Baumeister,
00:36:24.200 who we've
00:36:24.860 mentioned a
00:36:25.200 number of
00:36:25.500 times here,
00:36:25.980 he's actually
00:36:26.360 written a
00:36:26.780 great paper
00:36:27.780 in psychology
00:36:28.480 about how
00:36:29.660 the bad
00:36:31.200 is stronger
00:36:31.860 than the good
00:36:32.620 when it comes
00:36:33.200 to what we
00:36:34.240 pay attention
00:36:34.800 to and how
00:36:35.620 things affect
00:36:36.240 us.
00:36:37.020 So kind of
00:36:37.560 negative
00:36:37.920 experiences,
00:36:38.800 painful emotions
00:36:39.760 affect us
00:36:40.360 much more
00:36:40.920 strongly and
00:36:42.040 we remember
00:36:42.900 them much
00:36:43.420 more significantly
00:36:44.180 than the
00:36:45.080 positive ones.
00:36:47.060 And I think
00:36:47.500 that taking
00:36:48.500 that principle
00:36:49.200 to storytelling,
00:36:51.700 we have to
00:36:52.340 acknowledge that
00:36:53.300 when something
00:36:54.360 bad happens,
00:36:55.500 or when we
00:36:56.100 experience something
00:36:56.960 negative or
00:36:57.620 painful emotions,
00:36:58.940 those are going
00:36:59.440 to affect us
00:37:00.140 and therefore
00:37:00.780 be much more
00:37:01.820 likely to make
00:37:03.140 it into the
00:37:03.800 story that we
00:37:04.360 tell just because
00:37:05.120 of the powerful
00:37:05.700 effect that they
00:37:06.340 have on us.
00:37:07.580 So when we're
00:37:08.160 trying to craft
00:37:09.220 a story in a
00:37:10.240 way that actually
00:37:11.700 reflects the
00:37:12.840 reality that
00:37:14.040 we're living,
00:37:14.960 we have to work
00:37:15.920 against that
00:37:16.600 negativity bias
00:37:17.580 and therefore
00:37:18.460 we have to
00:37:19.540 actively
00:37:20.660 seek out
00:37:22.540 and remember
00:37:23.840 and incorporate
00:37:24.640 into our
00:37:25.280 narrative the
00:37:26.260 good things that
00:37:26.960 happened as
00:37:27.640 well.
00:37:28.400 So when I talk
00:37:29.220 about storytelling,
00:37:30.280 I'll get a
00:37:30.840 question like
00:37:31.480 yours that'll be
00:37:32.700 something like,
00:37:33.700 well, how do we
00:37:34.120 know we're not
00:37:34.440 deluding ourselves
00:37:35.140 if we're just
00:37:35.660 kind of spinning
00:37:36.420 the story in a
00:37:37.200 more positive
00:37:37.740 way?
00:37:38.540 I think that
00:37:39.520 we're actually
00:37:40.240 deluding ourselves
00:37:41.720 by telling these
00:37:43.140 negative stories
00:37:43.960 because they
00:37:45.160 don't reflect the
00:37:45.940 reality.
00:37:46.320 They reflect the
00:37:47.660 fact that our
00:37:48.260 brains pinpoint
00:37:49.640 and focus on
00:37:50.860 one or two
00:37:51.420 negative events
00:37:52.200 at the expense
00:37:53.140 of all these
00:37:53.680 positive things
00:37:54.360 that are happening.
00:37:55.300 Okay, I like
00:37:56.620 that.
00:37:57.400 So another
00:37:58.100 pillar you talk
00:37:58.800 about is
00:37:59.140 transcendence.
00:38:00.200 What do you
00:38:00.960 mean by that
00:38:01.660 and how do we
00:38:03.000 experience it
00:38:03.880 more in our
00:38:04.220 lives?
00:38:05.760 Transcendence.
00:38:06.420 So transcendence,
00:38:08.400 it's this big
00:38:09.340 word, it's a
00:38:10.600 mouthful, but I
00:38:12.440 think we all
00:38:13.680 kind of know
00:38:14.440 what this one
00:38:15.760 is about.
00:38:16.540 So transcendent
00:38:17.440 experiences are
00:38:18.900 those moments
00:38:19.640 when we're
00:38:20.240 lifted above
00:38:21.200 the hustle and
00:38:22.240 bustle of daily
00:38:23.260 life and when
00:38:24.160 we're even
00:38:24.620 lifted out of
00:38:25.340 our own minds,
00:38:27.040 our own sense
00:38:27.660 of self, and
00:38:28.800 feel connected
00:38:29.960 to something much
00:38:31.520 bigger than
00:38:32.060 ourselves.
00:38:33.220 So, you know,
00:38:33.940 for a lot of
00:38:34.460 people that can
00:38:35.880 happen within a
00:38:36.940 religious context,
00:38:38.280 you know,
00:38:38.640 meditating,
00:38:39.840 praying, going
00:38:41.180 to a church
00:38:42.240 service, temple,
00:38:43.760 mosque, whatever,
00:38:45.040 where you're
00:38:45.980 engaged in these
00:38:47.340 rituals and
00:38:48.680 kind of
00:38:49.400 liturgical
00:38:50.140 moments of
00:38:52.140 transcendence.
00:38:53.500 You know,
00:38:53.700 something is
00:38:55.200 taking you
00:38:55.720 outside of
00:38:56.460 space and
00:38:57.020 time and
00:38:57.880 connecting you
00:38:58.680 to, in a
00:39:00.180 religious context,
00:39:01.400 what you might
00:39:01.820 call God.
00:39:03.340 But there are
00:39:04.520 secular ways to
00:39:06.100 experience this
00:39:07.320 as well.
00:39:08.620 You know,
00:39:08.900 being in nature,
00:39:09.840 being in the
00:39:10.240 woods, Ralph
00:39:10.920 Waldo Emerson
00:39:11.740 wrote beautifully
00:39:13.380 about this,
00:39:14.080 as did Henry
00:39:14.680 David Thoreau,
00:39:15.380 the sense of
00:39:16.120 kind of the
00:39:17.060 divine that
00:39:17.700 they felt
00:39:18.380 walking in the
00:39:19.720 woods or being
00:39:20.920 out at Walden
00:39:21.780 Pond in
00:39:22.640 Thoreau's case.
00:39:24.160 For a lot of
00:39:25.120 other people,
00:39:26.360 you know,
00:39:27.060 music, art,
00:39:29.440 looking up at
00:39:30.220 the stars at
00:39:30.920 night, these are
00:39:31.500 all also portals
00:39:33.280 to transcendence.
00:39:34.660 And one of the
00:39:36.040 emotions that
00:39:37.160 transcendent
00:39:38.100 experiences evoke
00:39:39.480 is awe.
00:39:41.220 So this feeling
00:39:42.260 of just being
00:39:43.100 so small in
00:39:44.760 the midst of
00:39:45.340 something much
00:39:46.720 larger than
00:39:47.300 yourself and
00:39:48.020 something that's
00:39:48.920 mysterious and
00:39:49.960 beyond words.
00:39:52.100 And I think that
00:39:52.900 the reason these
00:39:53.880 experiences are so
00:39:55.400 meaningful to
00:39:56.140 people and people
00:39:57.140 who've had them
00:39:58.040 say that they're
00:39:58.920 among the most
00:39:59.400 meaningful experiences
00:40:00.360 of their lives
00:40:01.760 is precisely because
00:40:03.120 they inspire such
00:40:04.420 awe.
00:40:04.920 So they make you
00:40:05.880 feel small and
00:40:07.740 tiny, but that
00:40:08.440 also means that
00:40:09.240 all of your
00:40:09.700 problems and all
00:40:11.100 of the petty
00:40:12.600 grievances of
00:40:14.500 day-to-day life
00:40:15.220 suddenly become
00:40:16.240 muted and they're
00:40:18.100 not, you know,
00:40:19.360 yelling at you
00:40:20.300 inside your mind
00:40:21.060 like they usually
00:40:21.720 are.
00:40:22.600 And instead,
00:40:23.320 what happens is
00:40:24.180 you feel this
00:40:25.300 connection with
00:40:25.900 something bigger
00:40:26.600 and therefore you
00:40:27.760 feel like you're
00:40:28.620 part and parcel
00:40:30.080 of this bigger
00:40:32.100 thing.
00:40:32.820 And that can be
00:40:33.960 really reassuring
00:40:34.760 to people.
00:40:36.080 Yeah, for me,
00:40:36.600 awe is the way I
00:40:37.660 just, how I
00:40:38.500 experience it.
00:40:39.000 I feel both
00:40:40.080 really small but
00:40:41.000 also big at the
00:40:42.080 same time.
00:40:42.600 I don't know if
00:40:42.840 that makes any
00:40:43.360 sense.
00:40:44.020 No, definitely.
00:40:44.740 That's exactly the
00:40:45.660 paradox of
00:40:46.380 transcendence that
00:40:47.380 mystics throughout
00:40:48.640 the ages have
00:40:49.400 described.
00:40:50.440 Yeah.
00:40:50.960 And so anything
00:40:51.500 you can do, I
00:40:52.400 mean, I guess
00:40:52.760 transcendence, it
00:40:53.420 takes away from
00:40:55.400 the focus off
00:40:56.340 yourself.
00:40:56.960 You become less
00:40:57.540 self-conscious.
00:40:58.260 I think with all
00:40:58.920 these things,
00:40:59.980 I think storytelling
00:41:01.600 kind of makes you
00:41:02.720 the story is you,
00:41:03.840 but like belonging
00:41:04.640 and all that stuff,
00:41:05.960 it takes the focus
00:41:06.980 off yourself and as
00:41:07.820 you do that, you
00:41:08.480 start feeling a
00:41:09.360 more sense of
00:41:10.120 meaning in your
00:41:10.820 life.
00:41:11.500 Exactly.
00:41:12.280 It's, you know,
00:41:12.760 meaning is all
00:41:13.480 about, you know,
00:41:14.400 connecting to
00:41:15.060 something other
00:41:15.620 than yourself and
00:41:16.860 even with
00:41:17.380 storytelling, even
00:41:18.360 though, yes, it
00:41:19.040 is about the
00:41:20.140 story that you
00:41:20.680 tell yourself about
00:41:22.080 who you are, there
00:41:23.520 is research showing
00:41:24.740 that when people
00:41:25.660 tell what are
00:41:27.700 called redemptive
00:41:29.020 stories about their
00:41:29.940 lives, the stories
00:41:30.940 that have, you
00:41:32.140 know, suffering and
00:41:33.080 adversity, but then
00:41:34.140 there's a silver
00:41:35.440 lining of some
00:41:36.180 sort, some sort of
00:41:37.140 growth that happens
00:41:38.160 or something good
00:41:39.020 that comes with
00:41:39.600 the adversity, that
00:41:40.860 people who tell
00:41:41.460 those kinds of
00:41:42.040 stories are more
00:41:43.460 generative, which is
00:41:44.620 the word I mentioned
00:41:45.280 earlier in relation
00:41:46.460 to Eric Erickson, and
00:41:48.060 it means that they're
00:41:48.860 more likely to
00:41:49.480 contribute to others.
00:41:50.540 So even telling a
00:41:51.380 certain kind of
00:41:51.920 story can lead you
00:41:53.440 outside of this
00:41:54.420 self-involvement
00:41:55.440 towards connecting
00:41:56.800 to others.
00:41:57.920 So do you need to
00:41:59.280 experience all these
00:42:00.700 pillars at once to
00:42:02.440 feel a sense of
00:42:03.200 meaning in your life,
00:42:03.860 or can you just
00:42:04.380 experience one of
00:42:05.500 them at a time?
00:42:07.660 You know, it's
00:42:08.640 certainly the case
00:42:09.460 that having or
00:42:11.260 experiencing all of
00:42:12.320 these pillars will
00:42:13.660 probably give you a
00:42:15.160 deeper sense of
00:42:15.840 meaning, or at
00:42:16.460 least, you know, if
00:42:17.400 one of those
00:42:19.040 pillars isn't
00:42:20.380 present, you can
00:42:21.140 lean on another
00:42:22.040 one.
00:42:22.480 But I think for
00:42:23.500 most people, there
00:42:24.460 will be one or two
00:42:25.900 of the pillars that's
00:42:27.360 more prominent and
00:42:28.840 more important for
00:42:30.160 them than the other
00:42:31.100 ones.
00:42:31.440 So, you know, maybe
00:42:32.620 for you, belonging
00:42:33.760 is really key.
00:42:35.660 And for me, it's
00:42:36.660 storytelling.
00:42:37.900 You know, I went
00:42:38.260 out and I talked to
00:42:39.620 some people in
00:42:40.720 Silicon Valley last
00:42:41.840 year about this
00:42:42.700 book.
00:42:44.260 And when I got
00:42:45.300 around to
00:42:45.740 Transcendence, I
00:42:46.740 just got these
00:42:47.920 totally blank
00:42:48.660 stares.
00:42:49.220 Like, they had no
00:42:49.940 idea what I was
00:42:50.620 talking about.
00:42:51.440 And it was kind of
00:42:52.400 funny because that
00:42:53.020 had not happened
00:42:54.040 before.
00:42:54.500 Everybody, you
00:42:55.340 know, in other
00:42:56.260 venues knew what
00:42:57.620 Transcendence was
00:42:58.340 about.
00:42:58.780 But here, in this
00:42:59.900 particular community,
00:43:00.860 for whatever
00:43:01.300 reason, that
00:43:02.280 pillar was not
00:43:03.040 resonating.
00:43:04.120 So I do think it's
00:43:05.240 kind of individual
00:43:06.260 specific which
00:43:07.580 pillar will confer
00:43:09.260 the most meaning
00:43:10.100 and be the most
00:43:10.960 important to you.
00:43:12.140 So as I was
00:43:12.780 reading your book
00:43:13.240 and as, you know,
00:43:13.880 listening to our
00:43:14.400 conversation, thinking,
00:43:16.000 man, this, like,
00:43:17.000 creating meaning
00:43:17.540 outside of religion
00:43:18.540 sounds like a lot
00:43:20.120 of work.
00:43:20.680 I mean, as you
00:43:21.020 said and mentioned
00:43:21.400 earlier, like,
00:43:22.200 religion, there's
00:43:23.240 sort of the default.
00:43:23.900 You go in and you
00:43:24.560 have that sense of
00:43:25.420 belonging because
00:43:25.880 there's a community
00:43:26.440 there that gives
00:43:27.180 you a sense of
00:43:27.760 purpose, right,
00:43:28.880 from the get-go.
00:43:29.540 There's a story
00:43:30.740 that you are
00:43:31.380 involved in.
00:43:32.220 You experience
00:43:33.000 transcendence.
00:43:33.760 It's all, like,
00:43:34.380 packaged there for
00:43:35.080 you to go.
00:43:35.640 And now, with, you
00:43:36.660 know, people being
00:43:37.280 less religious, it
00:43:38.760 sounds like, man,
00:43:39.780 it's just, it's
00:43:40.580 kind of burdensome
00:43:41.380 to, like, create
00:43:41.880 meaning.
00:43:42.200 I mean, even
00:43:42.620 Nietzsche said you
00:43:43.980 kind of had to be
00:43:44.580 some sort of
00:43:45.080 ubermensch to live
00:43:47.120 a meaningful life
00:43:48.200 in a world
00:43:49.080 post-religious.
00:43:50.200 I mean, what would
00:43:50.640 you say?
00:43:51.180 Is creating
00:43:52.020 personal meaning,
00:43:52.860 like, really hard?
00:43:53.740 It requires a lot
00:43:55.460 of work.
00:43:56.560 I do think it
00:43:57.340 takes effort, but
00:43:58.760 I don't think that
00:43:59.800 it's impossible or
00:44:01.060 even that you have
00:44:01.760 to be some kind
00:44:02.540 of, you know,
00:44:03.480 super-duper being
00:44:04.900 to make it happen.
00:44:06.840 I mean, I think
00:44:07.700 we're all engaged
00:44:08.540 in this process
00:44:09.660 of trying to
00:44:10.960 lead a meaningful
00:44:11.520 life.
00:44:11.980 And I know that
00:44:12.600 you had Jordan
00:44:13.840 Peterson on a
00:44:14.740 previous podcast,
00:44:15.500 and that's kind
00:44:17.160 of the beauty
00:44:17.660 of his message
00:44:18.320 is that we're,
00:44:19.700 the task of
00:44:21.500 each human being
00:44:22.480 is to kind
00:44:23.080 of try to
00:44:23.760 craft some
00:44:24.900 sort of meaning
00:44:25.600 and some sort
00:44:26.180 of sense out
00:44:27.080 of this crazy
00:44:28.600 experience of
00:44:29.620 being alive.
00:44:30.740 And I think
00:44:31.760 that, you know,
00:44:32.620 it's harder to
00:44:33.620 do it today
00:44:34.160 because those
00:44:35.040 traditional forms
00:44:36.180 of meaning
00:44:36.600 aren't there
00:44:37.140 to just guide
00:44:37.740 us along.
00:44:38.740 But that doesn't
00:44:39.340 mean that we
00:44:40.080 can't take the
00:44:40.880 initiative and,
00:44:42.500 you know,
00:44:43.340 figure out ways
00:44:44.060 to build these
00:44:44.700 pillars in our
00:44:45.860 lives by
00:44:46.840 ourselves.
00:44:47.520 In fact,
00:44:48.080 you know,
00:44:48.320 there's a
00:44:49.020 tradition in
00:44:49.540 philosophy,
00:44:50.360 the existentialists,
00:44:51.380 who say that
00:44:51.860 that's,
00:44:52.480 that makes
00:44:53.600 the whole
00:44:54.060 quest that
00:44:54.820 much more
00:44:55.240 exciting and
00:44:55.780 that much more
00:44:56.300 meaningful because
00:44:57.080 you're doing it
00:44:58.020 for yourself.
00:44:59.440 But it also
00:45:00.040 means that it's
00:45:00.780 much more
00:45:01.400 effortful because
00:45:02.720 no one's kind
00:45:03.640 of guiding you
00:45:04.760 along.
00:45:05.680 Yeah, you talk
00:45:06.020 about the myth
00:45:06.560 of Sisyphus is a
00:45:07.580 favorite of mine.
00:45:09.360 Who wrote,
00:45:09.640 was it Camus or
00:45:10.220 Sartre that did
00:45:10.960 that one?
00:45:11.740 Camus.
00:45:12.260 Camus, yeah.
00:45:13.640 Yeah, so for
00:45:14.300 those of you
00:45:14.600 hadn't read it,
00:45:15.000 myth of Sisyphus,
00:45:15.960 it's a good
00:45:18.640 existential thought
00:45:19.440 experiment to
00:45:20.480 check out.
00:45:20.940 Well, Emily,
00:45:22.560 this has been a
00:45:23.180 great conversation.
00:45:24.080 Where can people
00:45:24.500 go to learn more
00:45:25.320 about your work?
00:45:26.600 They can visit
00:45:27.420 my website,
00:45:28.240 which is my
00:45:28.800 name,
00:45:29.620 emilyesfahannysmith.com.
00:45:32.100 I'm also on
00:45:33.240 Twitter at
00:45:34.000 msfahannysmith,
00:45:35.560 and you can also
00:45:36.180 find me on
00:45:36.860 Facebook.
00:45:37.980 And I'll say
00:45:38.420 that on my
00:45:39.060 website,
00:45:39.600 there's a form
00:45:40.220 where you can
00:45:40.660 email me and
00:45:41.380 I, that those
00:45:42.420 emails come straight
00:45:43.120 to my inbox and
00:45:43.900 I always try to
00:45:44.660 respond.
00:45:45.280 So please feel
00:45:46.040 free to reach
00:45:46.480 out.
00:45:47.060 Awesome.
00:45:47.580 Emily Esfahannysmith,
00:45:48.520 thank you most for
00:45:49.040 your time.
00:45:49.380 It's been a
00:45:49.780 pleasure.
00:45:50.040 Thanks,
00:45:50.620 Brad.
00:45:51.100 My guest today
00:45:51.520 was Emily Esfahannysmith.
00:45:52.780 She's the author
00:45:53.280 of the book,
00:45:53.720 The Power of
00:45:54.360 Meaning.
00:45:54.760 It's available
00:45:55.060 on Amazon.com
00:45:56.060 and bookstores
00:45:56.540 everywhere.
00:45:57.160 You can also
00:45:57.380 find more
00:45:57.720 information about
00:45:58.160 her work at
00:45:58.660 emilyesfahannysmith.com.
00:46:00.700 Also check out
00:46:01.200 our show notes
00:46:01.600 at aom.is
00:46:02.640 slash power
00:46:03.360 of meaning,
00:46:03.940 where you can
00:46:04.080 find links to
00:46:04.500 resources,
00:46:05.140 where you can
00:46:05.320 delve deeper
00:46:05.760 into this topic.
00:46:06.440 Well, that
00:46:19.020 wraps up
00:46:19.420 another edition
00:46:19.980 of the Art
00:46:20.440 of Manliness
00:46:20.960 podcast.
00:46:21.580 For more
00:46:21.820 manly tips
00:46:22.260 and advice,
00:46:22.680 make sure
00:46:23.000 to check out
00:46:23.340 the Art
00:46:23.600 of Manliness
00:46:23.940 website at
00:46:24.500 artofmanliness.com.
00:46:25.480 And if you
00:46:25.720 enjoy the show,
00:46:26.340 if you've got
00:46:26.540 something out of
00:46:26.980 it, I'd
00:46:27.280 appreciate it
00:46:27.720 if you give
00:46:27.960 us a review
00:46:28.260 on iTunes
00:46:28.740 or Stitcher.
00:46:29.360 As always,
00:46:30.080 thank you for
00:46:30.620 your continued
00:46:31.020 support.
00:46:31.460 Until next time,
00:46:32.080 this is Brett
00:46:32.380 McKay telling
00:46:32.920 you to stay
00:46:33.480 manly.
00:46:34.100 Bye.
00:46:40.080 Bye.
00:46:40.760 Bye.
00:46:54.660 Bye.
00:46:57.040 Bye.
00:46:57.720 Bye.
00:46:57.920 Bye.
00:46:58.040 Bye.