#398： Should a Man Care About How He Dresses？
Episode Stats
Summary
In this episode of the Art of Manliness podcast, host Brett McKay sits down with Tanner Guzzi, author of the new book, "The Appearance of Power: How Masculinity is Expressed Through Aesthetic," to talk about the role of style in masculinity. They discuss why caring about how you dress is typically thought of as effeminate, why men should think of clothes as an amoral tool, and how that tool can be a valuable means towards accomplishing your desired ends.
Transcript
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This episode of the Art of Manliness podcast is brought to you by Huckberry. Huckberry is my
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for more information and legal disclosure. These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA,
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the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, prevent any
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disease. Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of
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The Art of Manliness podcast. I hear a lot of guys tell it, real men don't care about style.
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Where did this idea that men don't care about their appearance come from? Has it always been
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around? And is there any validity to it? I guess they argues against the idea that real men don't
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care about their clothes and lays out a case for style being a valid part of masculinity. His name
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is Tanner Guzzi. He's a style coach and the author of the book, The Appearance of Power,
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how masculinity is expressed through aesthetics. Today, Tanner and I discuss why caring about how you dress is
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typically thought of as effeminate, why men should think of clothes as an amoral tool, and how that
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tool can be a valuable means towards accomplishing your desired ends. Tanner argues that rather than
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focusing on the mechanics of style, for example, like what shoes go with what pant, men need to figure
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out their larger goal in dressing better first, including which of the three style archetypes they
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fall into. We also discuss the relationship between style and status and how to balance dressing in
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line with a particular tribe you belong to with dressing for the wider world. After the show's over,
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check out the show notes at aom.is slash appearance of power. And now Tanner Guzzi joins me via clearcast.io.
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Tanner Guzzi, welcome to the show. Thanks, Brett. I'm excited to be here, man.
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So you got a new book out, The Appearance of Power, How Masculinity is Expressed Through Aesthetics.
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And what I like about this book, it's not so much like a lot of style books that talk about like,
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what tie to wear with what suit, how to match your shoes to your suit. This one's more about
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the overarching philosophy of style and how you can take that and shape it the way you want,
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how to express yourself. But let's get to this big question because I'm sure something you've
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experienced putting out style content, because we get it too. Whenever we post something out about
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style, there's always this contingent of guys that say, oh, this is dumb. Who cares? Real men don't
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care about clothes and stuff. Has this attitude always been around or is this something pretty
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modern? It's relatively modern. In fact, if you look back at different cultures and different
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traditions, especially when you look at things that are more honor-based cultures, where masculinity
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is very measured out and there's very strict hierarchies, appearance is something that's always
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been used by men to be able to determine where we fit within the world, who's honorable,
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who's dishonorable, who's at the top of the status chain, who's at the bottom, who's been able to
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accomplish feats of greatness versus those who haven't earned the right to do that yet.
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And so this antipathy for style that a lot of men have now is something that's both relatively
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modern and it's a little bit hypocritical because it's not actually true indifference.
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It's just this idea that you're supposed to hate it. If you really didn't care,
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then all these guys wouldn't end up looking the same. They would literally be wearing garbage bags
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or whatever else was just available to them. But the only appropriate attitude within them
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and their tribes or their ideals of what masculinity is, is to have this kind of hatred for what
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appearance is, but that's still caring about it. Right. Yeah. That's the point. They care about
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it. But yeah, as you said, they might not wear a suit. They might think that's dumb, but they've got
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their thing they sport that they care about and they think about because they thought about it when
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they bought it and they liked it. So they're showing that. Right. And all their buddies dress the same
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way and all the people that they aspire to be like dress the same way. There's the fact that we,
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there's no common denominator. That's the bottom of the totem pole that everybody kind of defaults to.
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We all dress to fit in with the people that we, we associate with and that we want to be like. And
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if that means that you have to pretend that you don't care, but only to the same extent that
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everybody else acts like they don't care, you still care. Right. Well, so I mean, okay,
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let's talk about the style stuff that you put out and maybe like in this minute,
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the general like style men's lifestyle genre. Right. That's the stuff that guys, they think is
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like a lot of guys say is like effeminate. That's wussy to, you know, worry about suits and like how
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they look or how to match ties. Like, why do you think that that idea is out there that, you know,
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being a real man means you don't care about suits and all that other nonsense.
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I think a lot of this stems from what happened with the cultural revolution in the sixties and
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the seventies with the baby boomers, because as they went through this idea of rejecting everything
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that not only their parents, but even previous generations stood for, obviously appearance and
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aesthetics was part of that. But at the same time, they didn't take it to the full extent that
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we're seeing now where they were rejecting traditional gender roles, rejecting the idea of
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what masculinity was or what it wasn't. And so it became this conflation of somewhat rejection of
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the old world where status matters, hierarchy matters, these social indicators through appearance
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matter. They rejected all of that, but they still very much cared about being men and being seen as
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men. And so those two married together into this idea of real men don't care how they look.
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Part of that is based off of the idea that how we look is only somewhat related to function,
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especially as we've moved away from being an honor culture or a society where honor is an external
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thing. And you've written a great series about this, where it used to be that honor was based
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on your external actions. Now we've moved to a society where it's based on our internal actions.
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And so the way that we dress is considered to be external. So part of it's related to that.
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And part of it also is that women have never rejected this idea. And so we've seen it as something
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that's only acceptable to women because at some point in time, men have rejected it.
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Right. I mean, yeah, going back to, you know, we were talking about earlier,
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what you were saying earlier is like, if you look back at pictures and paintings from
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like the 1600s and the 1700s, like the top dogs, like males, right? The princes and kings and even
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the warriors, like they wore like really fancy, frilly looking clothes, like high heels, stockings,
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like silk. And you look at that and like, boy, that's really wussy. But they were some of the
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fiercest warriors out there. But then like in the 1800s, the culture shifted from putting a premium
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on aristocracy and these warrior values to, you know, anyone could be a gentleman based on merit
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and values and virtues. And so I guess like that's when the suit, right? Like sort of the suit as we
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know it today became sort of the de facto uniform for men.
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Yeah. Cause we went from this, this culture of aristocracy and Lords and nobles and all of these
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other things where there was a very clear demarcation and a lot of masculinity was expressed by,
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yes, you had men who were very strong in battle, but one of the ways that this kind of frilly and
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wimpy clothing would signal their masculinity was that they didn't have to get down in the dirt with
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the rest of the plebs. You know, they were able to, to rise above and let somebody else do this
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physical labor. And so it was an expression of mastery through social status and finances and
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your connections. And then as we moved away from that aristocracy into a more merit-based culture
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where hard work and these other Western values became more and more valued, then the suit and
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its somberness became a status signal as opposed to the excess, the frivolity, all of these other
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things that were status symbols from previous generations. Right. And then I said the sixties
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counterculture revolution that it rejected that because they thought it was too conformist.
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And so worrying about how you look in a suit, well, no, that's not what you should be doing.
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You should just wear whatever you want to wear. Yeah. Even though what you want to wear is ironically
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what everybody else like you also wants to wear by pure happenstance, right? Right. Right. Okay.
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Well, okay. We'll get into that idea later on about status hierarchies and tribes and things like
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that. But you, in your book, you encourage men to see clothes as an amoral tool. You know,
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why is it important to see style as amoral? I think there's two big reasons for it. One is because
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we do to some extent, and for most men, it's on a subconscious level, we recognize the power of
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appearance. And that's why we don't wear dresses. We don't wear pink gorilla suits. If we represent
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one part of the world, we don't dress like we live in another part of the world. We naturally default
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to that. And so we see that our identity to some extent is both tied up into and represented by what
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we wear. So there's that component of it too. But then there's also the understanding that it is,
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it's a tool. There's nothing that it's not one of these top things. There isn't something, I mean,
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aside from the ideas of modesty or other things that may have religious undertones or moral undertones
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to it, there really isn't anything more or less moral about wearing a Henley and jeans or a suit
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and a tie or a floral shirt with some cargo shorts or anything else. And so taking all of this identity,
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all this morality and everything else out of it and looking at it as, okay, what clothing is going to
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help me best accomplish my goals in my life, I'm going to pursue wearing that clothing, takes it into
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the realm of it being purely functional. And I think for most men, it's a lot easier to wrap their minds
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around the importance of it as soon as we see that the form does have function.
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So what ends can clothes help you meet? What can you accomplish by being intentional about what you wear?
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Well, what I love about it is there's so many of them, but the biggest thing that I help my own guys
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understand is that it helps you see the best version of yourself. I believe in this idea of
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self-optimization. I think a lot of times when we think of like self-help or self-improvement,
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there's some negative connotations that come with that. It means that you're starting from a bad place,
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but a lot of men who are in very good places want to continue to get better. We self-optimize
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and we understand about things like the power of visualization. And if the man that is looking
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back at you from the mirror doesn't look like the version of yourself that you're aspiring to become,
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whether you like it or not, whether it's conscious or subconscious, to some extent that holds you back
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from being able to rise to the levels that you're actually capable of doing. And so not only does it
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affect your own perception of yourself, but it can either negatively or positively impact the way that
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you interact with other people. Because regardless of what the world tells us now, people do judge you
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by the way that you look. They do assess you based on how you look. And you can either use that to
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your advantage. You can have it be used to your disadvantage. You can whine about it. You can
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embrace it. But the reality of it is that those consequences are there. And so if you choose to
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understand them and use them to your advantage, then you make your life easier and you see yourself
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in a better context. So you win in both counts. So let's talk about that idea of perception.
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You mentioned in the book, the lab code experiment, sort of highlighting the halo effect. What is that?
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And what can that teach us about how clothes can modify people's perception of us?
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Yeah. So I love being able to go through and find these two different studies. The lab code one
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relates to this idea of enclosed cognition. And the way that that experiment was set up was there
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were two researchers who were trying to understand how much power our own clothing has over our own
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self-perception. So they took three different groups of people and they had them go through a different
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series of mental tests to basically gauge how the clothing that they wore that they associated with
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would impact them. And so the first group, they had them put on a white lab coat and they told them
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that it was a doctor's coat. The second group, they had them put on the exact same coat and they told
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them that it was a painter's smock. And then the third group, they had them put the lab coat on a chair
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in front of them. And it was just something that was available to them as they were taking this test.
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Now they factored out all these other things like time and persistence and all these other variables
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that could have affected it. And what they found was that those who wore the coat and understood it
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to be a lab coat got better results than those who wore it and thought that it was a painter's smock.
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And those who saw it as a lab coat, but didn't actually put it on were right in between those two.
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And so the power of the clothing affected their confidence, their brain recall, their own perception of
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their credibility, authority, how well they could get these answers because they saw themselves
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as better embodying the things that we think of when we see a doctor wearing a lab coat,
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which is credible, authoritative, all these other variables.
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That's crazy. So yeah, the clothes you wear can affect the way you think, basically.
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100%. Yep. Because if you feel more confident, if you feel more authoritative, if you feel more
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competent in what you're doing, then you're better able to recall the kinds of things that you need
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to do in order to actually be more competent, more authoritative, and more competent. That doesn't
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necessarily mean that it comes out of thin air. It's not like these guys could answer questions
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that they wouldn't have been able to answer before. But your ability to tap into those resources is
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enhanced by wearing things that make you feel like you can tap into those resources better.
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All right. So what's the halo effect? What's going on there?
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So the halo effect is something very similar, but it has more to do with how other people see you.
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And the basic idea of it is if we see something or understand something that we like about somebody
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else, then that creates a halo in which all the other negatives about them are minimized and the
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positives about them are maximized. So for example, you and I, if I were to see you on the street and
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not know that you were Brett from the art of manliness, I wouldn't be able to, I would be able to see
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you more indifferently or more objectively than if I were to see you and recognize that you were Brett,
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that you were somebody who I respected, somebody whose work I really looked up to, those kinds of
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things. So regardless of what our interaction on the street would be like, regardless of how poorly
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you were dressed, regardless of whether or not you were a jerk to the other people who were there,
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I would see all of that through a more positive lens because I see you as Brett, somebody that I
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look up to and respect versus if you were just some random guy. And so we can create that ourselves
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by being able to tap into the fact that people like and respect men who are taller and are better
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looking and exude more discipline and all of these other variables. And those are all things
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that can be communicated through our clothing, thereby making us more likable, maximizing all
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of our benefits, minimizing all of our weaknesses. Yeah. I think I've seen some studies on the halo
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effect where they've done, where they've put guys in different types of clothing and they wouldn't put
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them out on the street to ask for donations for some, you know, made up whatever organization
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with one guy, they just had them wearing kind of grubby clothes, like, you know, just like a t-shirt,
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shirt, jeans, et cetera. And then they had them go back and this time they had on, you know,
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I think it was like some sort of, it was a, like a polo shirt, like an Izod polo shirt with the
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alligator. Right. And when they were wearing the Izod shirt, they got more donations than when they
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were looking grubby. Right. And like, I mean, that's an example of the halo effect, like for
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whatever reason, whatever silly reason that stupid alligator imbues on someone like status compared
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to wearing just a grubby t-shirt. Exactly. And therefore we are more, it's a fixed action
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pattern. We don't consciously look at it and go, well, I objectively realized that this man might be
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higher status and therefore I'm going to be more likely to, no, of course not. But it is just because
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it's not conscious doesn't mean that it's not real and that there aren't real consequences as a
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result of experiencing it. So how do embody cognition and the halo effect work together in a
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synergistic way? Well, that's, what's so fun because when you do it right, then not only do you get
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all of the benefits of increasing your confidence, tapping into your own resources and becoming a
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better version of yourself, but then you're able to better exude that so that those things that you
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are judged positively for end up being stronger. Your weaknesses that you're trying to minimize end
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up being minimized even more. And so the halo effect has more to work with, more strengths,
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fewer weaknesses. So that becomes stronger. Therefore you become more likable, more trusted,
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more trustworthy. People treat you with more respect, which in turn increases your own perception
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of your confidence, your competence, all of these other variables. And so it is this kind of
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concentric circles going up in an effect where they feed off of each other very well and you do work
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to become a better version of yourself. Right. So it creates a virtuous circle, virtuous cycle.
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Well, I mean, and this is true. I mean, like this doesn't mean you have to go out and wear a suit,
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right? Like it could be like, maybe you want the halo effect with like you're in a biker gang.
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Yes, exactly. A suit's going to be a big drawback if you're in a biker gang.
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Right. So you wear clothes that they wear and they're like, oh, I can trust this guy. He's one
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of me. And they start treating you like a fellow biker gang guy, which makes you feel more like a
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biker gang guy. And because you're wearing clothes that like a biker gang guy, like you feel more
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like, so like, yeah, again, that synergistic effect is going on. Exactly. Well, okay. So you
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mentioned earlier that our clothes can make us feel like we can dress the way we want to feel or the
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man we want to be. You hear that from style experts, like, you know, dress like the man you want to
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become and through embody cognition, we can get some of that benefits, but sometimes there's that
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disconnect or is that cognitive dissonance. I'm wearing these clothes that are supposed to exude
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power. I'm wearing a suit or whatever, but I feel like they don't, I don't feel like I feel
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inauthentic in them. How do you, how do you keep that from happening? Or does, is that just going to
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happen naturally? No, I think it is going to happen naturally. And I think one of the biggest things
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that men can do is recognize that that's a feature and not a bug because what it should do is force
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you to recognize that not only are you seeing yourself differently, you're feeling a little
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bit of dissonance, but other people are also seeing you and therefore treating you differently.
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And so you have to improve your actions and improve all of these other variables about you
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in order to be able to rise up to this new projection of yourself. Otherwise you're either
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going to maintain that dissonance or it's going to drive you so crazy that you're going to fall
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back down to what your standard was before. So the first thing is to recognize that that's a good
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thing. And you want a little bit of that dissonance there because it's, it demonstrates that there's
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growth. But the second thing is that you also want to treat it kind of like a weightlifting principle
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of progressive overload. You know, my, if my one rep max on a deadlift is three 15 and my goal is to
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get it up to 500, I can't go in tomorrow and try and lift 500 pounds. It's not going to do me any good.
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And if I try and do that day after day after day, I'll never see any progress and I'm going to give up
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and I'm never going to, I'm never going to try again. But if I go in and I try to get two reps
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at three 15 and then try and gradually improve and increase what my rep max is. And then my one rep
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max and, and go into this idea of progressive overload, then yes, there's still this dissonance.
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It's uncomfortable. It's, it's physically uncomfortable and even mentally a little bit
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challenging to try and lift more weight every time. But I can get to that point where what was once
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my one rep max or what was once my default now becomes something that I'm warming up with and I'm
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getting closer and closer to that goal. Now, obviously with weightlifting, that's very
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measurable and quantifiable because you're using, you know, units of measurement that are as simple
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as pounds or kilos with clothing. That's more difficult, but it's still a doable process.
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Well, and the other thing where this idea of, you know, dressing like the man you want to become,
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the other thing you hear is like dress for the job you want, not the one you have. And like guys hear
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that and they're working middle management where, you know, you wear khakis and a, you know,
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maybe a button down and they start wearing a suit and that backfires on them. I mean,
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what, what goes on there? Why is that bad? Like, why, why, why would that backfire on you?
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Whenever like you have, there's a whole halo effect going on. Why what's going on there?
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Well, the big problem with that is that most guys, when we think about style, we get caught
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in the trap of thinking that in order to improve it, we need to be more formal. And that's why,
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even as we've gone through this, you've mentioned suits quite a few times. Most guys,
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when they find out what I do, they think, oh, well, Tanner will just dress me in a suit because
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that's what we think is a suit is the best way to have style or the best way to dress well.
00:20:30.500
But really what I do with my coaching clients who are in positions like that, as I would say,
00:20:35.320
let's take the same polo and khakis and we make sure that we get the fit dialed in.
00:20:39.360
We make sure that we get it so that the colors are flattering on you. We make sure that we get it
00:20:43.220
so that there's more texture that's visually interesting. We make sure that the collar sits properly.
00:20:48.500
And so you're taking the same uniform as guys who are in middle management.
00:20:51.760
And from somebody who is not versed in style, they don't necessarily
00:20:55.400
quantify a difference, but they can see that it looks better on you because of all these other
00:21:00.700
things. And so you still get all these benefits of it communicating more discipline, communicating
00:21:06.420
more self-respect. You get all of that enclosed cognition that works for you. And you get a lot
00:21:11.160
of the halo effect that comes with it. Even though technically you're still wearing the same articles
00:21:15.240
of clothing, they're just better versions of them. All right. I think that's a good point.
00:21:18.820
Dressing well doesn't mean dressing formally. Not at all. I think that's a novice mistake a lot
00:21:23.660
of guys make. Okay. So let's get back to this idea of, of status hierarchies. Cause this, I mean,
00:21:28.600
this, we've been kind of talking about this a bit, right? If you're middle management,
00:21:31.420
there's an expectation you dress a certain way. If you're in a biker game, there's an expectation
00:21:36.500
you dress a certain way. And I would, I feel like style was probably easier 50, 60 years ago,
00:21:42.800
because again, right. It was just the suit. Like you wear a suit, you go to Brooks brothers,
00:21:46.720
you get a suit and there you go. And as we said, mentioned in the counterculture, like all these
00:21:51.940
different status hierarchies were established. So you could, you know, you can gain status in a
00:21:57.740
biker game or with an outdoor crew or with mountain climbers or with weightlifters. And they all have
00:22:02.300
their codes of how you should dress and present yourself. And you can have different, like variants,
00:22:07.540
like we've written about this in our series about status. Like you can have high status at work,
00:22:10.560
but low status somewhere else or high status somewhere and low status somewhere else.
00:22:14.780
So, I mean, with all these different status groups with differing ideas of how you should
00:22:21.460
present yourself, like, how do you balance that with, you know, trying to show your allegiance to
00:22:27.700
that? Cause it makes you feel good, but while presenting yourself to the general public,
00:22:31.100
right. You know what I'm saying? Like you have to think about, so what's your approach to that?
00:22:35.980
So the two things that I do to help guys be able to balance this is one,
00:22:40.560
work with them to help them understand which of the tribes or the subcultures that they belong
00:22:45.440
to are the ones from which they most derive their identity. For a lot of guys, that's what they do
00:22:49.560
at work. But for some of us, it's our hobbies, or we may come from a more strict religious culture
00:22:54.900
or a family culture or something else. But if you can prioritize where those different tribes are,
00:22:59.960
as far as how much your identity comes from them, then it helps you to be able to prioritize
00:23:03.920
what you're wearing and how that exudes itself within the general public versus within that tribe
00:23:09.860
itself. So for example, for me, like I dress differently at the gym than I do when I'm out
00:23:17.020
with my buddies or when I'm working with a client. And part of that is because I don't identify
00:23:22.260
primarily as someone who's a guy who goes to the gym. That's not my, that's not my main identity.
00:23:26.440
I have plenty of friends and plenty of clients who do identify most strongly as a bro or a power
00:23:33.060
lifter or a crossfitter or something else. And so they need to be able to take elements of that
00:23:38.920
and put it into their everyday wear, as opposed to having it just be what's within the gym, because
00:23:43.640
that's where their identity strongly comes from. I think another way to kind of have that go hand
00:23:48.200
in hand is you also need to recognize how much does your identity actually want to be congruent with
00:23:54.780
society in general, or how much you want to rebel against it. For me, I was into the BMX and the
00:24:00.500
punk rock scene and all that stuff when I was in high school. And it was very much a benefit that the
00:24:06.920
way that I dressed to fit in with those tribes was a giant middle finger to everybody else. So I didn't
00:24:14.020
want to have there, I didn't want there to be any kind of bleed or overlap. I wanted it to be a
00:24:19.120
rejection of anybody who wasn't part of my tribe. So you need to factor in those things. And the other
00:24:23.640
variable to consider is this idea of location, because it's very easy for most men to wrap our heads
00:24:28.620
around the idea that I don't wear the same thing when I'm going swimming that I do when I'm going in for
00:24:33.600
jury duty or a court date or something else, right? The function is very different. But what we can see
00:24:41.680
very easily from a function perspective, we often have a very difficult time being able to understand from
00:24:46.780
a communication perspective, or what it is that our clothing communicates. And so I can dress very much
00:24:52.880
like a surfer when I'm at the beach, especially if I belong to that tribe, and not have to worry about
00:24:57.440
bringing that identity in with me when I'm sitting on a jury or when I'm going in for a loan, or I'm doing
00:25:03.000
you know, my presentation on stage or anything else. And so being able to again, take the morality and the
00:25:08.700
identity out of it and be location specific with what you're wearing and being able to recognize that how you
00:25:15.640
blend things is dependent on what your overall tribes are and how important they are. Those are usually the best ways to
00:25:21.280
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access to all of their lectures. And now back to the show. And also there's sort of a conversation
00:27:36.440
you need to have or a dialogue you need to have yourself about, you know, this idea of conformity
00:27:39.460
and individuality. So like you might, you know, align yourself with a particular tribe
00:27:43.340
and they dress a certain way, but you know, you might want to differ in a little way. So how do
00:27:47.660
you balance that conforming with the tribe and your own, you know, expressing yourself individually?
00:27:53.600
That's where the idea of tribe versus personal taste, those two are so important because you're
00:27:59.020
absolutely right. Most of us, the vast majority of us don't want to look like we're just a drone or
00:28:04.140
a lemming for any tribe, regardless of how much we may identify with that, that group or that
00:28:08.780
subculture. And so rather than taking it to the extreme of, I have to create new things or pull
00:28:15.980
out new identities. A lot of times it's just taking, if you look at it from just a purely tribal
00:28:20.360
perspective, if all I do is dress according to my gym scene, my, my preferred way of, of exercising,
00:28:26.640
then I'm a very one dimensional character. But if I pull in things from not only that,
00:28:32.320
but what my philosophical beliefs are and the music that I listened to and the things that I do
00:28:37.080
for a living and what my family heritage is and where my roots come from and all of these other
00:28:42.900
things, and you can recognize styles or appearance related cues that come from those things and you
00:28:48.320
blend them all together, then you still will look like you fit in with not only one tribe, but many
00:28:53.520
of those tribes, but you also still get your own personal taste because nobody is going to have the
00:28:58.640
same blend of all of those different cultures and subcultures that you do.
00:29:03.400
Gotcha. Well, let's talk about, you know, sort of the title of your book, The Appearance of Power.
00:29:07.320
And it's all about how, you know, masculinity is conveyed through clothing or aesthetics. So
00:29:12.460
what are those masculine attributes that you think men maybe consciously or subconsciously try to convey
00:29:20.280
I'm a big subscriber to Jack Donovan's tactical virtues of masculinity. I love the amoral approach
00:29:27.100
to that as well. So those are courage, strength, mastery, and honor. And in the book, I actually go
00:29:32.460
through and I outline a chapter on those tactical virtues and give historic examples of how different
00:29:38.080
men in different cultures have demonstrated those things through our clothing. And some of those are
00:29:42.640
easier to do than others, especially when we look at the physical versions of them. You know,
00:29:46.960
it doesn't matter what tribe you belong to, at what point in history you've lived. If you have a guy
00:29:51.520
who shows up and he's wearing a necklace full of human ears, and it's from the people that he's
00:29:56.160
conquered over the last however many years, you're going to recognize there's some strength and some
00:30:00.200
courage there, and you're going to have a visceral response to it, right? But when we do things that are
00:30:05.920
in a modern civilized culture, and especially when we start looking at things that maybe it's not
00:30:10.980
physical courage, but it's social courage or it's moral courage. And you can look at guys who are
00:30:15.840
willing to take social risk, and so they wear things that are a little bit more trend-setting
00:30:20.740
as opposed to conservative or safe. And one of the reasons we chafe against that is because
00:30:24.560
it shines a light on the fact that we don't have the same social courage as a lot of these other
00:30:28.560
guys do. Or you can look at demonstrations of things like mastery. One of the examples that I give
00:30:34.120
is I have a brother who is a very good snowboarder, and he can dress like the pros because he is one of
00:30:40.440
them when he's up on the mountain, but I'm not good enough to dress like those guys. And so if I
00:30:44.900
were to, then I would be very quickly called out as a poser and recognize that I'm projecting
00:30:50.840
something that is not actually congruent with what my skill set is because I haven't developed
00:30:55.280
the mastery to earn the right to dress in a way that the high-status masters of that sport have.
00:31:00.780
And so we certainly see modern examples of this. It's just a matter of figuring out how that's
00:31:05.960
actually expressed and communicated through the people in your life who matter to you.
00:31:10.440
So the book's called The Appearance of Power. How do you define power? Because I think
00:31:14.020
when people hear that, they think, you know, goose-stepping, boot-jacking, whatever. So
00:31:20.280
I would say power is simply the ability to affect change. And that can be on a personal level. That
00:31:26.340
can be on a macro level. I don't necessarily believe in the idea of every man, in order to
00:31:31.000
be powerful, has to be able to conquer and or save the world by himself. But I do think that you
00:31:36.100
should live intentionally and to the greatest extent that you can live life on your own terms. And
00:31:42.980
Well, so let's talk about concrete tactics you can use for, in like today's modern world. Like,
00:31:47.620
you know, you said like the guy in tribal, whatever, Papua New Guinea would wear the ears of the people
00:31:51.820
he killed to display his power. What can guys do today to display these traits you've been talking
00:31:57.860
So there are a few things that work kind of generally across the board, because as much as
00:32:02.280
we are not a homogenous society anymore, there's still things that kind of transcend separate
00:32:07.500
cultures. And so even things like understanding what it is that can make your body look bigger
00:32:13.340
and what it is that can help your body get the right proportions. And so those are things like
00:32:18.020
your shoulders being wider than your waist, or that you want to have a certain aesthetic
00:32:22.700
proportions that work out that way. And so understanding things about your body that may
00:32:26.480
be out of proportion. Like for example, I've got my, my arms are gorilla long, like they're way too
00:32:31.520
long for me. And so I've had to have my sleeves shortened in a way and have my J jackets lengthened
00:32:36.620
in a way that it helps to offset that kind of stuff, or even recognizing what kind of colors
00:32:41.260
work well on you so that you can know when you look healthy versus when you're wearing
00:32:45.500
the wrong colors and you end up looking a little bit sallow or sickly, or being able to recognize
00:32:51.460
within even just your work environment, what are the differences between those who are at
00:32:56.560
the top of the food chain? How did they dress compared to how the guys who are in middle
00:33:01.400
management compared to how the guys who are at the bottom of the ladder dress? And what
00:33:05.540
are ways that you can identify with that and start to incorporate that yourself? And
00:33:09.780
again, that doesn't work in a totally macro context. Somebody who works in Silicon Valley
00:33:14.820
for Facebook showing up in a suit every day, isn't going to do you any good, but being able
00:33:19.180
to wear, maybe it's a t-shirt and jeans like everybody else is doing, but instead of it being
00:33:23.420
some really crappy baby boomer, like orthopedic sneakers, you've got a good pair of vintage
00:33:28.660
new balance sneakers or some old school Nikes and your jeans are a good dark wash that more
00:33:34.200
demonstrates kind of this idea of discipline and versatility. And the fit is nice that
00:33:39.320
it actually makes your arms look a little bit bigger and it makes your shoulders look
00:33:42.600
broader. And so again, you can take the same t-shirt jeans and sneakers that everybody else
00:33:46.640
is doing, but wear it in a way that it makes you look bigger and it makes you look more
00:33:50.520
disciplined. Therefore, like you have more self mastery.
00:33:53.480
Right. So yeah, we've talked about this on the site. You know, one of the things that men
00:33:57.620
and women find attractive in men is the broad shoulders, narrow waist or that taper. And that's
00:34:02.780
why, I mean, I know like, you know, dressing up doesn't mean necessarily wearing a suit,
00:34:06.100
but like that's what's so powerful about suits because the way they're cut, they give you that
00:34:10.260
nice taper look. And the one thing that most men need to balance out with that, especially because
00:34:14.840
when most guys, they start getting into style, it's really easy to get into the pure scientific
00:34:19.200
stuff of the idea of proportions and colors and fit in those variables. And yes, those are hugely
00:34:24.880
important, but those are always overridden by what's being communicated and expressed through
00:34:30.840
your clothing. And so for example, you'll have somebody who will say, well, I have light skin
00:34:35.700
and light hair. And so wearing a really high contrast outfit, like a dark suit with a white
00:34:41.180
shirt doesn't look good on me. That may be true, but if you're going to a black tie event, you don't
00:34:47.320
show up wearing a really light tuxedo because the context of the environment and what's being
00:34:51.680
communicated with in that environment overrides the purely aesthetic value of you needing to have
00:34:56.800
something on that's lighter contrast than a black, a black tux and a white shirt.
00:35:01.540
Yeah. And I think, you know, an interesting point too, to make is that, you know, you don't necessarily
00:35:04.600
have to wear a suit to get the, you can wear just a blazer or just a very informal casual jacket and get
00:35:12.040
the same effect. Oh yeah. Or even, I mean, my daily wear is usually a pair of jeans with a Henley and
00:35:19.040
then I'll wear some sort of a jacket, whether that's a field jacket or a leather jacket or
00:35:22.960
something else, and then some classic sneakers. And because of how everything fits, because of how
00:35:28.360
well it works, because of the fact that I've got the enclosed cognition that comes with it, therefore
00:35:32.540
my body language, my posture, my confidence, and all those other variables are with it.
00:35:36.700
I still look better than 99% of guys to show up wearing a crappy suit.
00:35:41.440
Right, right, right. Well, okay. So we've been talking about how clothing or the way we dress is
00:35:47.480
going to depend on our tribe. Well, you know, by tribe, we mean here like the groups you belong to
00:35:52.000
at work, with your personal life, et cetera. But as you said, there's an element of personal style.
00:35:57.800
And in the book, you lay out that, you know, basically men's style, the personal preferences
00:36:02.380
that guys have can fall into three archetypes. Can you tell me a bit about those archetypes?
00:36:06.400
Yes, absolutely. So the three archetypes I've found are such a huge benefit because as soon as you
00:36:11.780
kind of realize that it's not just a suit, it can feel a little bit overwhelming because,
00:36:16.080
okay, then what does good style look like? And what does that look like for me?
00:36:20.120
And so the archetypes are a really good way to be able to recognize how you fit within the world
00:36:24.120
and then start moving in that direction as far as how you dress. And so the way that it's broken
00:36:29.400
down is the archetypes are rugged, refined, and rakish. And so the rugged archetype is typified by
00:36:35.460
men who primarily interact with the world through physical methods. And so that's guys who are really
00:36:40.700
big into nature. They may be blue collar workers. They may be fighters or other guys who very much
00:36:45.300
engage with the world tangibly and physically. The refined archetype are men who engage more through
00:36:50.840
the idea of network and finances and traditional hierarchies and status and those kinds of things.
00:36:56.240
These are the kind of guys who really like to play by the rules. They enjoy the idea of civilization and
00:37:01.260
they thrive in being able to understand rules and then play according to them. And then the third
00:37:07.120
archetype is rakish. And those are men who very much understand the rules, but they thrive by breaking
00:37:12.320
them. They're rebels and iconoclasts. And so those are guys who are more often than not, you know,
00:37:16.420
it's bikers or rock stars or all these other variables where they like to be out kind of on
00:37:21.360
the fringes of society or reject society in general. And so if you can get an idea of where you fit within
00:37:27.700
those, then it helps you start to get an idea of what your style should actually be other than just,
00:37:32.900
I have to dress more formally if I want to look better than I do now.
00:37:36.040
But is a man like holy one archetype or can they be a mix?
00:37:38.820
Oh yeah, absolutely. In fact, it is very, very rare that you don't get elements of all three.
00:37:45.380
And so it's being able to understand. And that's really where a lot of the power comes from. Because
00:37:48.680
again, going back to this idea of being a one dimensional character, if all you do is dress
00:37:53.100
according to a stereotypically rugged archetype or refined or anything else, then you do come across
00:37:58.740
as very one dimensional and you don't feel authentic in what you're wearing because you're
00:38:02.660
really leaning into one component of your life, but you're neglecting the others. But if you can
00:38:07.200
understand which of them is your primary, which is your secondary, which is your tertiary,
00:38:11.960
what the ratio of all three of those are, and then be able to develop your style according to that,
00:38:17.320
then you become more visually interesting, you feel more authentic, and then you're able to get
00:38:21.900
all of those benefits of that halo effect and enclose cognition even more.
00:38:25.160
Well, so let's talk about how these archetypes can guide your style decisions. So let's say
00:38:30.640
you kind of identify with the rugged archetype. So you're kind of an outdoorsy guy. So like
00:38:34.840
what kind of close, like if you were to go to the store, you're online shopping, like what kind
00:38:38.460
of stuff would you pick out? Well, and that's where in and of itself, that is not a full approach.
00:38:43.880
And that's why tribes are so important. Because for example, if you fit into the rugged archetype,
00:38:48.560
and you are somebody who is out in out on the West Coast, and you kind of enjoy hiking in the redwoods,
00:38:55.580
and you're more like a like a tech rugged guy versus a cowboy versus somebody who's a survivalist
00:39:01.480
versus somebody who's into the tactical stuff of military wear, all of those fit within that same
00:39:07.280
rugged archetype, but they're very different tribes. And so being able to understand what
00:39:11.840
kind of clothing you should wear, the archetype is a great place to start. But you do need to dive
00:39:16.940
in deeper into tribes in order to be able to better understand how that archetype manifests itself
00:39:22.800
Okay, so let's talk about like, it sounds like there's a sort of a hierarchy of style decisions.
00:39:26.020
So do you start off with archetype and then move to tribe? And then what's the final one?
00:39:30.160
So this is outlined in the book. So you start off with your body, because that those rules of
00:39:34.780
aesthetics apply everywhere all the time doesn't matter civilization or anything else. From there,
00:39:39.460
you go to archetype upon that you build with tribe. From there, you pepper in ideas of your own
00:39:45.280
personal taste and how you combine your tribes. And then you flesh those that out with the last two
00:39:49.780
steps, which are location, because you should dress differently at the gym than you do when you're
00:39:53.780
at work. And the final one is effort, because you don't want to be putting in more effort
00:39:59.440
than what you're actually getting out in results. And that's different for every man.
00:40:03.780
So yeah, speaking of effort, what's your take on the idea of sprezzatura, right? Where it's like,
00:40:07.660
your style should look effortless. Do you think that's actually a thing? Or do you think that's
00:40:14.140
I do. And I think that that ties really well back into this idea of the tactical virtues and
00:40:18.480
especially mastery. Because especially when you get into circles where style is something that
00:40:23.420
matters, or you start to really be able to see the world through this lens,
00:40:26.420
you recognize that it is a skill set. And there are people who are good at dressing well. And there
00:40:31.180
are people who try to, but are really not good at dressing well. And this idea of sprezzatura,
00:40:36.100
or this kind of effortless mastery, is huge because you're able to demonstrate that you are so good
00:40:42.180
that it's effortless, or that you have so much going for you that you can afford to make a quote
00:40:48.120
unquote mistake and have it actually contribute to your style as opposed to work against it.
00:40:52.320
And so one of the reasons why it is so valued is because it's a very modern way
00:40:56.300
to demonstrate that tactical virtue of mastery.
00:40:59.760
So how do you, I mean, when you sit down with a client or say there's a guy listening to this,
00:41:03.040
how do they figure out like what their personal aesthetic is, what their archetype is? I mean,
00:41:08.560
it's like a series of questions or it's just a matter of like, you look at a picture of a guy
00:41:12.700
dressed a certain way and you're like, yeah, I relate to that. Is that kind of what it is?
00:41:16.460
It's kind of a mix of both. And one of the things that I offer for anybody who's interested,
00:41:21.440
you can go take a free quiz on my site where it'll actually tell you which is your primary
00:41:26.180
archetype so you can get started from there. But really developing true style is a matter of being
00:41:31.740
both proactive and reactive, where you want an idea of what your archetypes are. You want to be able
00:41:38.300
to understand and be able to actually quantify and break down what the aesthetic communication is
00:41:44.480
within your tribes. And then when you do find things that you like, it's being able to look
00:41:49.420
at it and go, okay, I really like this jacket. I think that looks really cool. I saw that on
00:41:53.180
somebody's Instagram feed. Okay. So I know that it works from a personal taste perspective.
00:41:58.120
Does that work with my tribes or does at least it just not work negatively within my tribes? Okay,
00:42:02.860
we're good there. And does it work as far as what my archetypes are? Okay, we're good with that.
00:42:06.960
Is the coloring good for my body? Awesome. And then I don't really, from an effort perspective,
00:42:11.940
I don't mind that I have a bunch of things that I can only wear once, or I really want things to
00:42:16.620
be super versatile. And if I'm a super versatile guy, then does it work with all the other things
00:42:21.360
that I have in my closet? If you can check all of those things off, then awesome. You found a great
00:42:25.960
piece. Go buy that jacket. But if you can't, if something falls through the cracks, then you have
00:42:30.840
to look at it and go, okay, does it matter that that fell through the cracks? Should I abandon this?
00:42:35.420
Should I find another way to be able to do it? And so it's a combination of both being proactive
00:42:39.120
and responsive to what you see around you. And we've been talking about archetypes. How do you
00:42:44.000
think guys develop their own individual taste or their own individual take on style? I mean,
00:42:50.200
is it something that's in you or does it, I don't know, I don't know what I'm trying to ask here,
00:42:55.080
but it's like some guys, they seem like they're able to just pick out things that display their
00:43:00.360
individuality and make it work seamlessly, while there's other guys who are just like, I can't do
00:43:04.960
that. So is that a skill like developing your personal preferences and taste a skill?
00:43:09.520
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's a skill set just like anything else. And you have people who have
00:43:13.420
a natural propensity for art or expression. And so these guys may be able to best demonstrate that
00:43:19.640
through their clothing, whereas other guys are better able to demonstrate that through
00:43:23.460
the way that they speak or the music that they write or any other things, but it's definitely a
00:43:28.320
skill set. And so the best way to develop it and to get good at it is to continue to practice.
00:43:33.480
And that's why I've written the book and introduced this framework so that it takes a lot of the
00:43:38.140
muddiness and a lot of the guesswork out of what the practice should actually be and what it should
00:43:43.120
look like. Because unlike art, unlike music, unlike so many of the other things that people choose to
00:43:48.780
engage in, you have to get dressed every day. You can't just pretend that it doesn't matter.
00:43:54.020
You can't just bury your head in the sand. You're going to deal with the consequences of how you
00:43:58.380
present yourself to the world. And so you might as well actually turn it into a skill set that's
00:44:02.940
working for you as opposed to a liability that's working against you.
00:44:06.740
So one thing I've noticed over the years writing The Art of Manliness, when there's guys who are
00:44:10.600
like, I'm ready to change my life, the first thing they do is go to changing the way they dress.
00:44:16.320
Do you think that should be the first thing guys do? Or are there other things you think guys should
00:44:21.380
I think that it's one of the first things, if you are the kind of person who needs kind of an easy win,
00:44:27.060
because it is an easy win. You can go out and buy new clothes within a day. And if you know what
00:44:31.700
it is that you're looking for, then that's an awesome way. And it's a very easy way for you
00:44:35.640
to feel like, okay, I've made some progress. I'm actually becoming a better version of myself
00:44:39.460
because unlike trying to improve your relationships or your finances or your own self-talk or even your
00:44:46.080
physique, those are all things that are way more important than the way you dress. And I want to
00:44:51.260
make sure that I iterate that style is by no means like a primary thing that a man needs to improve,
00:44:55.840
but that doesn't mean that it's not impactful. All those other things are way more important,
00:44:59.340
but they also take more time. And so if you're the kind of person that needs some little wins to
00:45:04.500
get your victories going and to be able to maintain that momentum, then style is absolutely a great
00:45:09.240
thing to do. Now that said, there's some costs that come with that because improving your
00:45:13.880
relationships, your own self-talk, your mindset, improving your finances, those are things that can
00:45:19.260
be done very privately. And so as you go through the learning curve, as you make mistakes, as you have
00:45:24.180
small victories, nobody else is going to see you. But if you start off with your style,
00:45:29.100
that's a very visible thing. And so if you're not able to be able to deal with a lot of the
00:45:33.880
consequences, both negative and positive that come from doing this, then I would say you want to wait
00:45:39.000
until you're further along in some of your other self-development or self-optimization before you
00:45:44.300
So it can be a great tool to kickstart if you're kind of in a funk.
00:45:48.860
Yeah. I mean, I love, I don't know if you probably, I mean, maybe you watched this back in the day,
00:45:54.160
No, never saw, I mean, I know what you're talking about, but I never sat there.
00:45:56.700
Yeah. My wife was a big fan. So every time, you know, when she's watching, I sometimes watch it.
00:46:00.020
Like, it was amazing to see like the transformation, just like wearing better clothes, like hat on people.
00:46:05.480
Like they got huge, they got new jobs. They, you know, mended a relationship that was bad.
00:46:10.820
They started losing weight. I mean, I think, yeah, people downplay,
00:46:15.260
Yep. Cause it is, it's an easy win and it's one that's very public. And so other people see you
00:46:19.620
as somebody who's making other gains in other areas. So again, that halo effect, you may not
00:46:23.900
have lost as much weight, but people will believe you that you're actually serious about losing weight
00:46:28.360
because they can see demonstrably that you were serious about improving another component of your
00:46:32.760
Well, Tanner, this has been a great conversation. We had a whole conversation about men's style
00:46:35.720
without talking about how to match ties to suits.
00:46:41.220
Right. Well, where can people go to learn more about your work?
00:46:44.340
So my main site is masculine-style.com. You can find stuff there. You can also take the archetype
00:46:49.940
quiz there. I'm most active when it comes to social media on Twitter and Instagram. And both of those
00:46:55.100
are at Tanner Guzzi. And then you can pick up The Appearance of Power on Amazon, on Audible. You can
00:47:02.120
Fantastic. Well, Tanner Guzzi, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.
00:47:05.680
My guest today was Tanner Guzzi. He's the author of the book, The Appearance of Power. It's available
00:47:09.180
on amazon.com. You can also find out more information about his work at masculine-style.com.
00:47:13.820
Also, check out our show notes at aom.is slash appearanceofpower, where you can find links to
00:47:17.980
resources where you can delve deeper into this topic.
00:47:31.880
Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,
00:47:36.080
make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And if you
00:47:39.300
enjoy the podcast, I'd appreciate it if you give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher. Helps
00:47:42.520
out a lot. As always, thank you for your continued support. And until next time, this is Brett