The Art of Manliness - #404： What Men Can Learn From Wolves

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast between 1991 and

00:00:19.140 1996 jim and jamie dutcher lived with and filmed a pack of wolves in idaho from this intensive

00:00:24.720 fieldwork came the award-winning documentary wolves at our door the husband wife team are 0.96

00:00:28.600 out with a new book that highlights some of the things they learned on living a flourishing life

00:00:32.060 from the wolf pack they were embedded within it's called the wisdom of wolves jim and jamie share

00:00:35.880 what wolves can teach us about family respecting your elders play the importance of belonging to

00:00:39.860 a group leadership and what it really means to be an alpha wolf tune in for a fascinating

00:00:43.500 conversation on a fascinating creature that has much to teach us humans after the show's over

00:00:47.360 check out the show notes at aom.is wisdom of wolves and jim and jamie join me now via skype

00:00:52.480 jim and jamie dutcher welcome to the show well thank you so much for having us brett yes thank

00:01:13.880 you very much so youtube recently published a book the wisdom of wolves and this is based on

00:01:19.940 a project you all did back in the 90s you filmed from 1991 to 1996 a pack of wolves and it's called

00:01:29.700 the sawtooth pack let's start for the background of that like what was the impetus behind the project

00:01:35.300 of filming a pack of wolves for such a long time too well i've been a filmmaker that specializes in

00:01:42.540 animals that you just don't get to see in the wild mountain lions beavers undersea subjects and

00:01:49.760 after finishing a successful film on mountain lions we put together a proposal with abc television

00:01:57.860 to do a special on wolves and but you just can't go out and find a pack of wolves and film them

00:02:05.980 in a meaningful way i mean you can but they're so far away they're so intelligent that they change

00:02:12.580 their behavior and run away we wanted to be able to get into their lives into their social lives

00:02:19.400 so we set this project up with puppies bottle feed them from the moment they opened their eyes

00:02:25.300 and camped with them for six years afterwards but we gained their trust by being with them

00:02:32.920 from the moment they realized they were here on this planet and where did you all get the wolf pups

00:02:39.960 from the initial wolf pups well there was a woman up in montana that inherited or 0.63

00:02:45.320 tried to just took over a pack of wolves that was they were being experimented with and they were in

00:02:52.480 alaska and she she said if you give me the pack i'll take care of them please don't euthanize them

00:02:59.260 uh they were the project was finished and they were going to put them all to sleep so she had also seen

00:03:06.060 the mountain lion film and thought we could do a lot of good for wolves as she gave us puppies

00:03:11.320 so we started the sawtooth pack with a pack of puppies four of them and so you know wolves are

00:03:17.860 they're they're we'll talk about this later on but they're they explore right and their territories

00:03:22.560 can be large and they'll move from territory to territory how did you keep them contained within

00:03:27.320 a certain area so you could film them well we had they were an enclosed situation and we actually had

00:03:33.500 the largest wolf enclosure in the world it was 25 acres and it's important to note that you know

00:03:39.860 all behavior studies that have been done on wolves have to be done in captivity because you can't get

00:03:45.760 close enough to them but most of these studies have been in very small enclosures of one to three acres

00:03:51.400 so you know we had the largest enclosure in the world 25 acres and this you know it's true that wolves do

00:03:58.420 have huge territories but since the the the pack basically grew up in this area they were pretty

00:04:04.340 they were very content they didn't uh they didn't pace the fence you could lose a wolf for days in

00:04:10.060 this area we had a very mixed terrain we were at the foot of the sawtooth mountains we had alpine

00:04:16.100 meadow we had forest we had streams it was quite varied and they they were very comfortable in that

00:04:22.780 location because of course their family was there so as you just mentioned you know a lot of previous

00:04:28.000 studies on wolves were done on captive wolves and in a really small area how did those studies

00:04:35.660 maybe mislead us about you know what are some of the things that we maybe got wrong about wolves by

00:04:41.980 studying captive wolves and and putting in such a small area well i you know i don't want to speak for

00:04:49.480 for every study but i i know that there's some researchers that would enter enclosures and would

00:04:55.240 would dominate the wolves or you know and by by doing that by making the wolves submit you've

00:05:01.320 changed their behavior you know you've you've just altered things going on and i think also being in a

00:05:07.000 in a smaller situation can lead towards um maybe some unnecessary aggression we we made sure that you

00:05:15.740 know even though we bottle fed these wolves from pups just as if they were opening their eyes

00:05:20.560 so they would trust us we never treated them as pets we never and we never tried to dominate

00:05:26.040 or be submissive to them we were very very neutral and i think that allowed us access to this intimate

00:05:34.220 behavior without really affecting the way they lived their lives you know we would have our our film

00:05:40.960 gear and our sound gear and we would be out with the pack and you know they just we wouldn't miss a

00:05:47.880 beat because we were basically like the furniture they wouldn't just stop and go oh who's here

00:05:51.860 you know so i i think it also having this this larger area gave us an opportunity to really see

00:05:59.300 these wolves lives unfold for us and you know they revealed to us how compassionate and caring

00:06:06.140 they are for one another and you know even though you know the great apes are are more closely 1.00

00:06:11.360 related to us dna wise dogs i mean and you know wolves are also you know descendants of created the

00:06:18.540 dog wolves social behavior is really so much like our own you know you can watch wolves and you can

00:06:27.060 you can see you know your colleagues at work you could see uh kids on the school playground it was a

00:06:32.500 really wonderful way to uh to observe them and learn a lot more what one other reason for

00:06:38.380 approaching this project the way we did and with captive wolves if you go out into the wild and

00:06:44.800 you obituate a pack of wolves and gain their trust wolves are hunted in the three western states

00:06:51.900 where they mostly live montana wyoming and idaho and if you gain the wolf's trust that may be the next

00:07:00.540 time a wolf sees someone it may not be a camera being pointed at them it'll be a gun and so we didn't

00:07:07.220 want that to happen so this that was the reason we approached the project the way we did okay so

00:07:13.500 you know jamie you just talked about the social lives of wolves wolves are famous for their social

00:07:20.480 hierarchies right there's an alpha wolf a beta wolf but i think there's a lot of misconceptions about how

00:07:26.720 wolf hierarchies work what do you think are i mean what do you all think are the main misconceptions

00:07:31.900 about wolf's social hierarchies that people might have well i i think one of the biggest misconceptions

00:07:37.300 is is the term alpha and alpha seems to be falling out of favor with a lot of people but we still use

00:07:44.540 it to describe you know the the leader of the pack the alpha is uh is generally the the father of the pack

00:07:51.500 the alpha male and female are the parents of the pack generally and so they would be you know the the

00:07:56.740 parents in your own family and they're the ones that really determine how the day-to-day operations

00:08:03.260 of the family works and i think a lot of people have this idea oh the alpha must be this you know

00:08:09.280 tough strong aggressive you know we use it in a very negative way nowadays we're really the alpha

00:08:14.720 our alpha was a very benevolent leader he led with kindness he was a very caring leader and and father of

00:08:22.400 the pack and it it really showed us that there's more to being an alpha than just strength that

00:08:28.760 really they they take care of the family they uh they decide who's going to eat first and last it's um

00:08:35.460 it's a very sensitive caring thing another interesting point that they've been discovering

00:08:40.640 actually in yellowstone since the wolf reintroduction is that you know it was always thought that uh you

00:08:45.940 know it must be the alpha male that leads the pack there have been sightings where people have been

00:08:50.000 watching the wolves and the alpha male will get up and stretch and get ready to go somewhere and the

00:08:55.940 rest of the pack doesn't pay attention but if the alpha female gets up everyone stands to attention 0.98

00:09:00.560 they want they know something's going on they're going someplace yeah we're going someplace we need to

00:09:05.320 be ready so um you know the female has a lot to do with it as well so i think that's the mate one of 0.98

00:09:10.780 the major misconceptions is that this alpha is this tough you know lead with an iron fist kind of

00:09:16.780 leader and and it really isn't that way i mean you know wolves are all they're individuals and all

00:09:22.480 families are different but generally they they don't need to lead with an iron fist brett another

00:09:28.360 misconception is that the pack that it's just this mob that got together in the forest and went out to

00:09:35.120 make a killing it really isn't it's it's a family it's mother father aunts and uncles grandchildren

00:09:41.520 grandparents they may adopt another wolf another wolf could join them sometimes not some but um

00:09:48.560 by and large it's a family yeah i think that's i i learned that just recently i thought you know

00:09:54.860 wolves just got together and they sort of you know fought it out to see who was the alpha wolf

00:10:00.420 and then that was it but no it's like it's a family and it's the the mom and the dad they're the leaders

00:10:06.160 boy meets girl and uh you know they they have a family and then it all goes from there another

00:10:11.360 misconception is the lone wolf uh that's a disperser that's a wolf that wants to go out

00:10:17.260 and find another wolf it's a very temporary situation they they perhaps the wolf sort of

00:10:23.460 outgrew the family it was in well had aspirations of being the leader and yet there was a strong leader

00:10:29.640 so he or she goes off and looks for a mate another disperser and they form another pack but they have

00:10:36.780 to do this pretty quickly because it's very difficult for a wolf in the winter time to feed itself because

00:10:43.240 the the the smaller animals are under the snow and you know hibernating but elk and the deer and the

00:10:51.880 animals that they feed upon you need teamwork to bring them down yeah and this misconception of

00:10:57.620 you know people saying oh you know i'm a lone wolf i don't need anybody well you know wolves need each

00:11:02.980 other they need to need a family and they need to belong so it's a very temporary situation in which

00:11:08.440 a wolf doesn't want to be in for a very long time right so there's some wisdom right there we can get

00:11:13.260 right there just on leadership right so i think you know if we all look at the leaders that inspired us

00:11:18.380 the most they weren't domineering they weren't aggressive they weren't loud and they could be if they

00:11:24.360 needed to be but mostly they were just calmly leading the leading the group and sure yeah lead

00:11:30.700 with kindness right and then with the lone wolf thing like we you know in order for humans to

00:11:35.720 survive and thrive like we need each other as well we need a group absolutely absolutely so we talked

00:11:42.020 about alpha wolves there are omega wolves so they're sort of like the low like the the low man on the

00:11:46.900 totem pole but despite that the way you describe the omega in this pack like he the wolves treated him

00:11:54.560 you know with you know they they kind of bullied him sometimes but they also saw that he had a role

00:11:59.620 as well so what is the role of an omega wolf in a wolf pack well in in our pack the omegas seem to be

00:12:07.440 the instigators of play using play to diffuse pack tension and you know they could always you know get

00:12:14.880 get the rest of the wolves in a light-hearted mood you know for a great game of tag but you know like

00:12:20.740 you had mentioned there they are also the focus of of pack aggression they're the low man or woman on

00:12:26.440 the totem pole and they do get picked on they they generally are forced to eat last they have to wait

00:12:32.520 till everyone else is finished but they really have an important role to play within the pack for instance

00:12:39.180 when we were just talking about dispersing wolves an omega wolf has a has a definite position so

00:12:45.320 uh the omega wouldn't be a wouldn't generally be a disperser his he you know he's got a really

00:12:52.080 definite spot in the pack and and knows what that spot is but all the same you know the wolves still

00:12:57.680 really cared for him and in our pack there was a point where the omega seemed to be allowed to retire

00:13:05.080 from the position and the other rest of the wolves stopped picking on him and unfortunately they found

00:13:09.380 another one to pick on a little bit and what was really great is that lakota the omega the old omega

00:13:15.380 never picked on this new omega it's like he knew where you know he he knew what had happened and and

00:13:21.780 just wasn't going to to pitch in on that but one really touching story with the omega had to do with

00:13:28.520 another wolf in the pack which is the beta wolf who or second in command generally and we started

00:13:34.340 noticing when we would slow down our film and watch it in slow motion that mozzi the beta wolf would if

00:13:42.400 there were there was a dispute going on with the omega he would actually run into the fray of the

00:13:48.400 wolves and the dispute going on and break it up so the omega could get away and after watching this more

00:13:55.580 and more we started to notice that the two of them hung out together they would sleep together the beta wolf 0.81

00:14:01.620 would would let the omega wolf jump on his back which another wolf would never let happen and they

00:14:07.200 really had an incredible friendship and this this beta wolf just the only way you could say it is

00:14:12.780 really took him under his wing and just made things didn't made sure things didn't get out of hand which

00:14:17.500 was quite sweet and and the way that we should be taking care of our weaker members of our family and

00:14:23.660 community how are omegas determined is it just personality they're just timid and how does that

00:14:29.580 shake out yeah generally it seems to be their personality lakota was a very shy wolf although

00:14:35.600 interestingly he was bigger than the alpha the alpha was actually his brother but he was bigger than

00:14:41.200 the alpha wolf so it seems more to do with with personality than it than it does just you know physical

00:14:46.760 weakness so going back to this idea of wolves and family being so important one of the one of the

00:14:53.000 things i liked that really was touching right was how much all the wolves were invested in the pups

00:14:59.940 of a pack and not just the parents like what did the other adult wolves do to help rear these wolf pups

00:15:08.320 well and we as i said we started with puppies but we had other pups given to us as the years went on

00:15:17.040 until finally our alpha pair she she dug a den and we had puppies of our own but all along the way

00:15:25.460 you could see these unrelated wolves caring for pups and we would keep them separate for a while

00:15:32.560 just so we could bond with them and nurture them and feed them we've used milk bottles and around the

00:15:40.120 clock and as it got older we would play with them a lot just being with them so they were fenced off

00:15:46.260 and the other wolves would sometimes bring presents and slip them through the chain-link fence for the

00:15:52.820 younger wolves i always thought that was so sweet little pieces of hide and bone it was pretty

00:15:58.640 pretty cute yeah but it's it's really kind of it's all all the members of the pack take care of the

00:16:05.260 pups you know they're they're born to the generally born to the alpha pair but you'll have one wolf that

00:16:10.240 will step up to be the puppy sitter you'll have others that will help become teachers and then there

00:16:15.600 there are others that are just generally playmates and nothing more than than clowns for the the pups

00:16:20.800 but they all uh it's really interesting how you know wolves just love pups whether whether related

00:16:27.480 or unrelated they really take care of them yeah i think you made the point that biologists have noted

00:16:32.260 in wolves when pups are born into a pack the the non-parent adult wolves kind of enter another like a

00:16:39.680 second pup phase and then become very yearlings right right and uh it to me it reminded me just

00:16:45.680 like you know goofy uncles like that's like the job of like a human uncle right that's like you're

00:16:49.620 there to like play with your nieces and nephews do the things that your parents like the kids parents

00:16:55.820 would be like no don't do that it's not safe like no aunts and uncles they're like no we're gonna do

00:17:00.280 some crazy stuff i gotta teach you how to to have fun oh absolutely and we we absolutely had had the

00:17:07.280 goofy uncle one of the mid-ranking wolves amani was totally a complete clown and and he just he had no

00:17:14.980 interest in teaching the pups or nurturing them he just wanted to play and they loved him so in our

00:17:21.500 book we have other stories of other wolves we have come to know and uh one of them is from the wolf

00:17:27.520 watchers out in yellowstone watching a similar type of wolf of a goofy uncle that went off on its own

00:17:35.680 probably looking for gophers and ground squirrels and such and must have come upon the carcass of a

00:17:42.740 huge bison and thought i don't know whatever he thought he picked up the the skull the monstrous skull

00:17:52.480 and carted it back which would have probably been 10 or 15 minutes back to the robin rendezvous spot

00:17:58.560 where the pups were his um his younger brothers and sisters and he gave that to them yeah it took

00:18:05.200 him hours to get it took him hours to do this and he had to put it down and lift it up and it would

00:18:10.540 just but why he did that he and he just seemed to care about the younger pups no i love that that

00:18:17.280 was some of my favorite stories from the book well you know speaking of play like yeah you highlight in

00:18:22.300 book that wolves they play all the time i mean so what role why do they play do do by all just know

00:18:28.580 like why wolves play so much well i think you know it's it's not so different than uh than humans really

00:18:34.940 i mean you know we all play and we play to hone uh different skills i mean you know for for wolves

00:18:41.240 you know play helps them that reinforce their bonds with each other but it also helps teach them

00:18:46.880 you know hunting techniques stalking you know just all kinds of different skills testing where

00:18:52.420 they're where they're strong and where they might be a little little uh little weak and and so it it

00:18:57.940 plays a is a vital part of learning and and becoming a stronger wolf but also for the sheer joy of it

00:19:04.680 you know we you know wolves can be seen on sides of mountains just running like crazy and chasing each

00:19:10.560 other's tails and and they just they do it for the sheer joy of it but there is also the education

00:19:15.880 factor involved and it does seem to that play somehow it it can flatten the social hierarchy

00:19:22.520 temporarily because you talk about how you know lakota was the omega kamats was the alpha their brothers

00:19:30.260 um and lakota would instigate play and kamats would play with lakota but he would let lakota win

00:19:38.500 which was interesting because lakota is the omega yeah you know the role reversals and and where lakota

00:19:47.040 the omega would actually chase the the alpha and the alpha would just um let them catch them and it was

00:19:55.380 just it was it was really touching to see so you have to think about this so that that wolf the alpha

00:20:02.760 must have perceived what he meant to his brother to let him do that so the perception of of just being

00:20:12.240 the leader but also being a friend um i thought that was really touching yeah i think it's very similar

00:20:18.440 to humans in rough housing you know that's right yeah yeah and they pass on on knowledge that this is 1.00

00:20:25.940 something that a wolf pack that they learn certain techniques um in alaska there was a pack of wolves

00:20:32.740 that specialized in feeding on dow sheep on on a mountain face and if they climbed up the cliffs of

00:20:41.160 the mountain to try to get to the sheep well the sheep would just climb higher and get out of the way but

00:20:46.660 they learned a technique of going around the backside and coming down from above and they were very

00:20:53.340 successful at doing this but sadly there's if the wolves wander out of the national parks they get

00:21:00.720 trapped and hunted and these wolves lost their alphas and the younger wolves never learned how to hunt

00:21:08.980 sheep that way so this culture of learning was broken up yeah so these these wolves never went back to

00:21:15.060 hunting doll sheep that way it was quite sad yeah and we have hunting here in idaho and wyoming and

00:21:22.000 montana and they hunt wolves and they break up packs and when you break up a pack you know a good size

00:21:28.540 pack would be of maybe a dozen wolves and if you start hunting them and you know the the younger ones

00:21:35.200 are usually the ones that get shot but also the the leaders they stand up to the perceived danger and

00:21:40.920 if you kill this knowledge then the the wolves that are left are broken up into smaller packs of twos and

00:21:47.980 threes and they're dramatically affected by this and they they are desperate for food and so they go

00:21:56.500 after what is easy and that's sometimes um livestock so hunting wolves actually makes it worse for ranchers

00:22:03.600 so i mean and i think you also highlighted a story too where there was a pack that had developed a

00:22:09.780 culture of i mean we call it culture it's kind of what it is passing on a culture of hunting bison 0.91

00:22:14.700 together as a team i think yes yeah right and then they they killed the older wolves and then that

00:22:21.080 culture stopped they stopped hunting bison right same thing yeah like in yellowstone national park you

00:22:27.260 know bison it's very specialized most of the uh the wolf packs hunt uh deer and elk and but there was

00:22:35.400 one pack that really had honed its skills at hunting bison they were much bigger pack and they really

00:22:42.440 worked as a team to bring them down and you know losing that that culture that knowledge really uh

00:22:48.220 devastates the family and i think this is again the wisdom of wolves like there's a role for elderly

00:22:54.100 people right the elderly people in our own communities yes because they have knowledge that's

00:22:58.880 vital that can help uh you know a family or a community thrive yes it's very true there's uh

00:23:05.100 there's a gal kara cassidy who's been doing research in in yellowstone and she works with us and she

00:23:12.420 had she was studying the effect of older wolves on packs on their packs and it turns out that a wolf

00:23:21.440 pack is two and a half times more successful when older wolves are in the pack than not so you can have

00:23:29.020 a smaller pack with older wolves and then a larger pack with no older wolves and the smaller pack with

00:23:37.500 older wolves will do better and that's because these wolves as in human culture they're the carriers of

00:23:43.780 the knowledge they're the carriers of the history they know where to cross the rivers if they get into a

00:23:49.860 dispute with another pack over let's say territory those older wolves have probably come across the other

00:23:56.440 wolves before so they know the strategies they know what works and what doesn't work they may not

00:24:01.560 take place in in the actual dispute or the the disagreement the argument the fighting but but

00:24:06.960 they're the ones that really guide the younger wolves on on how to uh how to act and how to conduct

00:24:12.960 themselves it's it's really important and you know it's in today's culture we tend to marginalize our

00:24:18.940 elders and when we really have so much to learn from them so a wolf howling at the moon is sort of like

00:24:25.940 this archetypal image um and you all filmed these and they don't just do it alone like they do it in

00:24:32.860 unison which i think is interesting do they know like do bailers know why wolves just howl at them

00:24:39.100 just howl together in unison oh gosh you know i i did all the sound recording and i like to say that

00:24:45.580 wolves howl for more reasons than we will ever know you know they they howl when they when they're just

00:24:51.840 happy when they feel good they'll howl after a meal they'll howl to search for each other there's a

00:24:57.320 thing called a pack a pack rally where generally the alpha will start howling and then all the other

00:25:03.220 wolves will come in and and it's this big kind of jazzy soulful uh hysterical howl and uh and you know

00:25:11.980 then just all of a sudden it'll it'll start break into play and then it'll die off and so it you know

00:25:18.840 it it really serves a huge purpose wolves will also howl by themselves kind of we find like to

00:25:25.360 check in on each other in the middle of the night you might get one wolf that'll howl and it's almost

00:25:29.720 like he's saying hey i'm here i'm fine and then another wolf will howl off in the distance and it's

00:25:34.880 like okay i'm over here so it's uh it's pretty spectacular but their their array of communication

00:25:40.900 is so varied that we've got howls growls whines barks these sounds that i like to call

00:25:48.200 chewbacca sounds because it sounds actually like the uh the stars work star war character

00:25:53.780 chewbacca kind of a uh it's it's really it's really a lot of fun the way we had our camp set up we were

00:26:03.440 living in their territory and we built a platform for a year and had a wall tent but we circled the 0.97

00:26:11.560 whole thing with chain link and so when we go to sleep at night our heads on our cots were very

00:26:19.260 close to the canvas wall which was close to the chain link and so and there was a wolf that always

00:26:25.220 liked to hang out there and he uh well hots would have this little bed right there i don't know during 0.76

00:26:32.140 the day he seemed to be a little bit shy and aloof but uh at night maybe our muffled sound and

00:26:38.900 reminded him of being bottle fed as a youngster but he would just stay right there and the other

00:26:46.080 wolves would start to howl off in the distance and he would howl and just launch us out of bed

00:26:50.980 it was such a surprise in the middle of the night right so i mean it sounds like howling it's sort of a

00:26:58.020 social thing right sort of yeah sort of like how we sing together i think i think they've done studies

00:27:03.420 on humans like when you sing together with other people it does all this like stuff to your brain

00:27:07.900 makes you feel good connected etc yeah it really does and and you know there's a story in the book

00:27:15.280 where we talk about we were doing a presentation at a school in connecticut and as we walked into

00:27:21.400 the auditorium and we took the stage in unison all the kids got up 600 600 and started howling at us

00:27:30.180 and we found out later that this was not planned they all just did it and you know you could just tell

00:27:36.520 what a great time they were having howling just it was so social and it took it took a bit to uh to

00:27:42.060 get them calmed down but it you could tell that they loved it just as much as wolves do right right

00:27:46.920 so maybe the tip like howl tonight with your family exactly before you go to bed or at least sing a song

00:27:52.560 together yeah we can do that i know you all didn't film this or maybe maybe you did and it just

00:27:57.840 wasn't the book but like do we know what happens when a wolf pack encounters another wolf pack

00:28:03.020 is there a conflict do they kind of mediate that conflict somehow do we know what goes on there

00:28:08.200 well um we've we've not filmed it but uh it's been observed in uh in yellowstone and a lot of

00:28:14.660 different things can happen and it depends upon the circumstances if you have you know sometimes

00:28:20.260 wolves will try to avoid each other in each other's territory but there's times when when wolves will

00:28:26.020 have to move through another wolf's territory and if they come upon the uh the other pack then there

00:28:33.480 can be a pretty big dispute a pretty big fight but you have to realize a lot of these packs in

00:28:39.360 yellowstone they follow the care uh the um elk out of the park and they get killed and so they they have 0.97

00:28:47.500 to sort of stay in the park or they run the gauntlet of um hunters outside the park and they're pretty

00:28:54.820 effective yeah so there's you know uh so they do cross through each other's territory quite a bit

00:28:59.660 you know it's not often that that they're serious problems but there can be conflicts you know and

00:29:04.780 that's really not unlike early you know human cultures yeah i thought one of the interesting

00:29:10.720 points you highlight too was that unlike other animal species where say a wolf pack will take out all

00:29:19.220 the adults they won't do that to the pups and they'll actually adopt the pups because that's interesting

00:29:24.360 like i think gorillas like if they kill those kill all the baby gorillas and then lions do the same

00:29:30.540 adult or male lions do the same thing to lion cubs yeah yeah and i think chimpanzees and and it's it's

00:29:36.120 really interesting i mean you know certainly you know a young wolf or a pup could get caught up in

00:29:41.280 the dispute and something could happen but but generally if uh if if one wolf pack takes over another

00:29:48.220 pack after dispute they will not kill the pups those pups are immediately taken into the

00:29:54.120 family and if you have a pregnant female she'll give birth and those pups are immediately taken in 0.99

00:29:59.700 it's it's really a very a very culturally unique thing that i that i that i think we share you know

00:30:06.340 we uh we we adopt other people you know other offspring and and uh it's it's a really uh moving

00:30:13.620 thing to see it's why why wolves are dogs or canines and humans get along so well exactly crazy

00:30:20.160 the other super fascinating sort of tidbit in the book you guys highlight was uh the relationship

00:30:25.720 between wolves and ravens oh yeah what was going on there what happens between these two

00:30:31.700 well the the ravens were would sort of tease certain members of the pack and fly real close or hop along

00:30:39.720 on the ground and come up behind them and pull their tails but ravens and wolves they they they need each

00:30:46.160 other symbolically in the wild often ravens will lead wolves to a winter kill and and they do this

00:30:55.380 probably for a selfish reason because they can't open the kill with their beaks and the wolves can so

00:31:01.840 they they they benefit from each other yeah so you know wolves will follow ravens to uh a winter kill

00:31:08.980 and and ravens will follow wolves on on their hunt and there's always you know little bits and scraps

00:31:14.940 left over and it was really you know fun to see that the ravens around us they were scared to death

00:31:20.460 of us we could never get close to them but they would hang out with the wolves and as jim said would

00:31:25.700 pull their tails and try to get them to play and the wolves would sort of haphazardly snap at them and

00:31:31.040 not really caring very much until they got irritated and walked away but they it was really as if the

00:31:36.180 ravens were just kind of instigating some play like come get me come get me it was it was really great

00:31:40.980 to see but there was one time where we found a dead raven and it probably was killed by the wolf

00:31:47.320 and jamie picked it up and kind of tossed it toward the wolves and and the reaction was strange because

00:31:56.220 they they would normally kill if they killed a a bird or a brown rabbit something like that they would

00:32:03.940 they would consume it or play with it and then eat it but this they when jamie threw the carcass to

00:32:10.520 uh mozzi the beta wolf he kind of looked at it like so sad and walked away yeah it's like like it was

00:32:18.680 a mistake yeah like a tragic mistake right that was really i thought that was really interesting and

00:32:23.720 funny too like the idea the picture of a raven picking up a wolf's tail i don't know i thought

00:32:29.560 was funny so what happened to the sawtooth pack you were filming them for from 1991 to 1996 what

00:32:35.440 happened to them after that well we moved them to the nezperce reservation uh our permits were the

00:32:40.940 forest service in the area that we lived in under the sawtooth mountains about an hour from our home

00:32:47.640 here that permit expired and we renewed it as many times as we could but we eventually had to find a

00:32:55.140 permanent home so they we moved them up to winchester idaho to the nezperce reservation and they lived

00:33:01.560 out their lives there um one of them lived to be about 17 years old yeah so they were in a similar

00:33:07.700 situation because the one thing you know we could not let them go free they lost the one thing they

00:33:12.980 needed to survive in the wild which of course was fear of humans but that was you know never the plan

00:33:18.040 we'd sort of hope that by the time we the sawtooth pack no longer existed that there wouldn't be a

00:33:23.580 need for captive packs anymore so you know they lived out their their lives as ambassadors there

00:33:29.080 i'd like to mention one thing one sort of a breakout moment for me in the project came in the very first

00:33:36.600 year of the project when we had a another omega a black female that we called mataki and um she would 1.00

00:33:45.960 take and go off by herself because she'd get picked on all the time so she just would be by herself

00:33:53.420 someplace in the territory and a mountain lion spotted her and climbed the fence and killed her

00:33:59.580 but what was so amazing and changed me is when i watched how the wolves reacted to her death they

00:34:07.580 they stopped playing they you know as we've talked about playing it happens all the time we didn't see

00:34:14.600 play for six weeks they and they were very affected by being in the area where we found the

00:34:21.420 carcass of this wolf and we found fur way up in a tree and claw marks of a cougar up up in the tree

00:34:29.040 but at the base of the tree we found claw marks of the wolves like they try to chase this lion up the

00:34:35.580 tree and and then i guess she escaped somehow but they also howled differently they as we talked about

00:34:42.980 pack rallies they would gather together and celebrate the solidarity of their pack and

00:34:48.240 they stopped howling that way they would howl separately and look and their howls were very

00:34:54.300 searching as if they were trying to call mataki back and she you know when they would walk through 0.99

00:35:00.260 the area where she'd been killed you know their heads would go down their ears would go back they

00:35:05.200 were you know they were clearly visibly upset they were they were you know the only way to say it is

00:35:09.720 that they were clearly mourning they clearly missed her and um and were grieving her loss and we've heard

00:35:16.900 stories like this of wolves and like in alaska uh there there was a famous pair that was being

00:35:24.360 researched by gordon haber and uh the female the alpha female stepped in a trap and the pack and his

00:35:32.800 her mate um stayed in the vicinity for a couple of weeks these traps don't kill the wolves so they just

00:35:40.960 linger there until they starve to death or perhaps a hunter comes along and finishes the job but the

00:35:48.300 the hunter finally showed up two weeks later wolf was still alive he shot the wolf and the alpha male

00:35:54.940 ran back into the park and it was still winter and he went back to the den site and he dug up the den

00:36:02.900 and cleared it all out for a litter that he would never father and then after he finished that he ran back

00:36:10.320 again to the trapping site and when gordon left him he was howling on a ridge over and over in the

00:36:17.920 direction of the trapping site so he was totally confused with what happened to his mate yeah that's

00:36:24.060 really sad when when did the the last of the wolves die of the sawtooth pack i think it was 14 2014

00:36:32.200 not too long ago yeah yeah we got the ripe old age of 17 yeah i think we got 98 000 emails we have a

00:36:42.760 non-profit organization that we tried to educate people about wolves and people got to know about

00:36:49.960 this wolf pipe and so many stories and it was very touching well jim and jamie this has been a great

00:36:58.280 conversation where can people go to learn more about the book and the rest of your work well thanks

00:37:02.520 brett we yeah we invite everybody to to visit our website livingwithwolves.org there you can find a

00:37:08.700 lot of information and you know about wolves and our and our non-profit we're also living with wolves

00:37:14.380 is also on facebook and twitter and we also we just put out a an interactive exhibit on our website

00:37:22.680 which is a great educational tool for adults and kids to navigate and learn more about wolves

00:37:29.100 fantastic well jim and jamie dutcher thank you so much for your time it's been a pleasure

00:37:32.680 thank you so much brett my guests they were jim and jamie dutcher they're the author of the book

00:37:36.840 the wisdom of wolves available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere you can also find out more

00:37:40.960 information about their work at livingwithwolves.org and check out our show notes at aom.is

00:37:45.560 wisdom of wolves where you can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic

00:37:49.520 well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice

00:38:05.700 make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com and if you enjoy

00:38:09.260 the show if you got something out of it i'd appreciate it if you take one minute to give

00:38:12.060 us a review on itunes or stitcher it helps out a lot as always thank you for your continued support

00:38:15.900 until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay manly

00:38:18.860 thank you

00:38:22.460 so

00:38:28.100 you

The Art of Manliness - May 10, 2018

#404： What Men Can Learn From Wolves

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