The Art of Manliness - #406： Why You Need to Embrace Small Talk

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast if you're like a

00:00:18.740 lot of people engaging in small talk can feel awkward and tedious consequently you avoid it

00:00:23.340 as much as you can my guest say argues that if you want to get ahead both personally and

00:00:26.600 professionally you need to embrace these little exchanges name is deborah fine and she's the

00:00:30.560 author of the book the fine art of small talk and today on the show deborah explains why small talk

00:00:34.720 is actually a big deal and isn't just a waste of saliva she then shares the biggest obstacles

00:00:38.720 people have in engaging in small talk and the two mindset shifts you need to make to get over those

00:00:43.080 obstacles deborah and i then discuss specific tactics you can start using today to start

00:00:47.080 conversations keep them going and end them gracefully lots of actionable advice that you

00:00:51.660 can use immediately improve your day-to-day life so take notes after the show's over check out the

00:00:55.800 show notes at aom.is small talk and just a quick heads up deborah works from home and her family

00:01:00.680 just took in a little dog named gizmo and gizmo makes a bit of an appearance in the middle of the

00:01:04.700 show did her best to minimize him but he's there just want to give you fair warning on it doesn't

00:01:09.640 last for very long deborah fine welcome to the show well brett thank you very much great to be on

00:01:26.840 so you uh wrote a book that i'm a big fan of because we've used it as a resource from some content we've

00:01:32.740 written about over the years it's the fine art of small talk is something that i think a lot of people

00:01:37.460 makes them uncomfortable feel awkward i'm curious were you always an expert in small talk or did

00:01:44.140 you was this a skill you had to develop as well uh i i was the opposite i i i am an engineer by

00:01:51.060 education i did not choose engineering because i liked to chat with people brett just the opposite

00:01:57.120 actually and in addition to that i had quite the weight problem until i was in my early 30s and

00:02:03.500 meaning very overweight and so i was excluded from a lot of things i didn't have girlfriends

00:02:10.120 when i went to school i didn't get asked out for a date till i got out of college so my best friends

00:02:16.400 were books books came easily mingling with people going to a networking event which i really didn't have

00:02:21.940 to do as an engineer but but even approaching my boss during a coffee break was completely out of the

00:02:28.040 scope of my ability to do of course if my boss approached me i would be okay and if he or she

00:02:34.180 managed the conversation i'd be pretty okay not great so i had this epiphany when i i lost all this

00:02:40.100 weight you know i i thought that was so magical you know you feel so wow i finally did this and i thought

00:02:46.540 friends would magically appear and they did not and what i observed is that you really have to know how to

00:02:54.940 at least small talk and by small talk you know i i used to think what a waste of saliva brett right i

00:03:02.420 mean why would anybody want to learn that that is not intellectual that is not for an engineer type

00:03:08.020 but i learned that it's at least in my mind it it really is sort of the appetizer for a relationship

00:03:14.940 it's not the most crucial part in in romance in business in your social your your close friends but

00:03:22.480 it's what starts it it's it's sort of a frame and then you can go further and and gain either a

00:03:29.820 closer relationship or business friendship and or closer relationship romantically etc so i had to

00:03:35.740 learn how to do it and that that really was my inspiration was i thought wow i learned how to do

00:03:40.560 this then i labeled it and i thought maybe there's other people besides dorks like me that want to learn

00:03:47.420 this so that that's where truly and i actually and this is no diss on engineers at all i really

00:03:53.340 believe this i thought oh only engineers like me will want to learn that they're the only ones that

00:03:58.400 are struggling and it's been quite a revelation to learn that even some people that you think are

00:04:03.800 vivacious are struggling as well but all kinds of professions and people and sometimes we go through

00:04:09.900 transitions in our lives and that we're not feeling as confident with with the small our small talk

00:04:15.660 skills so it is amazing the need out there for for labeling what small talk is and sort of making

00:04:22.480 it a tool set that you can use when you need to are you still an engineer are you doing the small

00:04:26.600 talk thing teaching people no no i'm no no that's a long time ago i'm actually a a keynote speaker

00:04:32.120 and trainer now that's how i earn a living all over the world that's fantastic yeah it is and all

00:04:37.760 thanks to small talks like i'm sure small talk plays a huge role in that so i think you made a good

00:04:42.260 point i think a lot of people they they avoid small talk or they they think it's bad you know

00:04:47.080 dumb it's just a waste of time right but as you said like that's how you start not only personal

00:04:52.160 relationship but you give all these examples in your book of how small talk or avoiding small talk

00:04:58.320 can injure you professionally as well well i think it can i mean let's go back to just my example

00:05:04.500 of me i i don't know this for a fact but i really believe i became invisible when i was in engineering

00:05:12.360 if if you're not willing to walk up to the boss i'm the kind of person that if i was in a classroom

00:05:17.160 style setting where they were going to teach us some skill set or or it was some program for the

00:05:23.780 organization i was the type that didn't sit down until the meeting began because what if i had to sit

00:05:29.460 next to you brett i mean what what was i going to talk about with you i don't know you and even if

00:05:34.260 i knew you from projects we were waiting for the meeting to start that so were we going to talk about

00:05:39.780 business you'd probably say hi deborah how are you i go oh great how are you brett and then what do you

00:05:45.900 talk about after that so i think that really harms building rapport with your colleagues with your boss

00:05:51.200 etc but what i do know now and i do see the pressure out there because the clients that hire me

00:05:56.820 you're expected to have visibility also in a hospitality suite or in an exhibit hall even an

00:06:02.780 engineer forget a lawyer an architect teachers you know if you sit down with a teacher for your

00:06:09.640 kids conference and that teacher is awkward and or doesn't frame that what i consider a business

00:06:16.260 conversation your kids evaluation with some small talk then you might not like the teacher brett and if

00:06:23.560 you don't like the teacher it just it isn't good for property school taxes we vote no when we don't

00:06:29.600 like a teacher do you know people actually vote no isn't that crazy but they do and so i think small

00:06:35.920 talk and not for extended periods of time but should be a picture frame around the selling of a widget

00:06:42.140 a presentation a negotiation a provision of service whatever it is that you're engaged in in business if you put

00:06:49.080 small talk around that you will develop business friendships and all things being equal people do

00:06:53.080 business with their friends and all things not being so equal people still do business with their

00:06:57.640 friends yeah i mean despite your competency i mean you might be the best whatever but if people don't

00:07:04.120 like you or feel comfortable around you they're not going to do business with you they're not going to

00:07:08.220 like working with you or not only that and i couldn't i couldn't have said it better brett but

00:07:13.140 there's another benefit to small talk and that is to gain visibility so what i mean by that is if

00:07:20.260 you're not a confident networker and you went to let's say stanford law school and did great on your

00:07:25.520 lsats and you are currently an attorney for a firm and they're looking at cutting back who do you think

00:07:31.780 they're going to cut back the person bringing in the billable hours what they call a rainmaker or they're

00:07:36.500 going to look at your gpa from law school and see you went to stanford so they're going to keep you on

00:07:40.420 board if you're not there's so much power to meeting new people that is how we bring in clients

00:07:46.360 and referrals and and i'm not just speaking now to attorneys i'm speaking to whether you're an

00:07:50.880 entrepreneur and need angel investors or whether you are cpa and need to build your practice you can

00:07:56.080 be the best cpa and if you're not willing to go to after hours events and or civic opportunities or

00:08:03.120 charities and meet new people so they get to find out about what you do how are you going to build your

00:08:07.320 practice i'll use an anecdote in my personal life my my husband happens to be a periodontist so

00:08:14.160 we don't want to go into too many details except that that's a gum surgeon but he'll tell you

00:08:18.640 that when a patient comes into his office he will he's seen a lot of bad dental work so whether that be

00:08:26.420 ortho whether that be cavities or whatever he doesn't do that but he'll see bad work in people's

00:08:32.580 mouths and more often than not the bad work that he sees in people's mouths come from dental practices

00:08:40.420 that are big that are successful why is a dental practice successful and yet and yet just dispensing

00:08:47.540 bad dental work because you walk in there as a patient and they make you feel good deborah it's so

00:08:53.840 good to see you they didn't call me debbie already i love them because a doctor didn't call me debbie wow

00:08:58.440 i love you uh how have you been what's been going on bring me up to date about the family

00:09:03.640 they do all that of course i'm going to go to that dentist what about a dentist that does great work

00:09:08.580 but is awkward or uncomfortable with people but he or she just does great work

00:09:13.980 here's the problem brett you and i don't know if we're having good work done we just know if we feel

00:09:19.400 good when we're in the chair because they are so likable that's the dentist we choose is the likable

00:09:25.340 dentist and unfortunately that doesn't mean he or she does the best work i hope i've illustrated that

00:09:31.100 well i feel like i went on a little too long but no no that was that was a great example okay so small

00:09:36.380 talk help you with your professional life also your personal life it gets you out there meeting new

00:09:40.880 people right so it's powerful but what keeps people from doing it then like why do people not like

00:09:47.600 doing small talk well a couple reasons number one the primary reason in my mind is because

00:09:53.200 we're not in control so if i'm a fourth grade teacher i'm in control i i studied my curriculum

00:09:59.700 the night before i deliver it to the students you know if i make a mistake they have no idea

00:10:03.800 if i'm an attorney same thing you know when i i'm a keynote speaker when i when i deliver a 45 minute

00:10:10.080 keynote to an audience they have no idea how many mistakes i made only i know but i sit with you for

00:10:15.340 coffee brett because we're going to meet either on a date and obviously we're not going to date because

00:10:19.180 as i mentioned i'm number one married and number two not a cougar but let's moving on from there if

00:10:24.340 we go on our first date because we've been on tinder okay and it was great on tinder i'm funny

00:10:29.940 you're savvy oh wow and then we go on that first date and i go so how was your week and you say

00:10:35.300 good how was yours good so tell me about you oh you know i i like to run how about you i mean it's

00:10:43.920 just like awkward we're not clicking because the small talk is bad so the the what what i'm trying

00:10:52.380 to to lead up to is that we have no control when i meet you for coffee on a date or for business and

00:10:58.820 i think that's why people hate it is we're in control of our professions like you're in control

00:11:02.680 of this interview right now like you're going to end it you're going to decide what questions to ask

00:11:06.580 that's got to be easy brett you know you're a pro at this but if you and i go out for lunch

00:11:12.720 and you're awkward or i'm awkward because we're not in control then it stinks it's lousy so i think

00:11:18.480 people don't like it because they're not in control they haven't even labeled it that way

00:11:21.480 they've never looked at it that way the other reason people hate small talk besides the fact that

00:11:26.160 we well we always diss things we don't do well when i was really overweight i thought you runners

00:11:31.180 were just like look at those people what do they have ocd running five days a week well geez you

00:11:36.740 know i have books to read well because i hated running once you learn how to jog and takes off a lot

00:11:42.420 of weight you learn to love running so a lot of us diss things that we're not comfortable with

00:11:47.660 that we're not good at and and lastly i think there's a big risk brett and walking up to somebody

00:11:53.340 new at a party at a business networking event at the office there's a lot of risk because you might

00:11:58.940 reject me so why would i why would i ever put myself in that risky position i'll just hold off and

00:12:04.220 and not do that okay so we just don't like it right so we diss it we think it's dumb or bad

00:12:10.420 uh that's risky and we have no control which i think risk and have not having control are kind

00:12:15.000 of related right there's a risk that the conversation is going to go somewhere where

00:12:18.600 you don't want it to go right or just not go well yeah you know don't you walk into an event and think

00:12:25.820 oh i hope i hit it off with somebody that's what i used to do now i can hit it off with anybody brett

00:12:30.680 unless they're a class a jerk well so what is the mind shift change that needs to we'll get into

00:12:36.420 specific tactics but let's talk about the mind shift change that needs to happen in order for

00:12:40.360 you to start engaging in small talk and getting over those obstacles you might have well number one

00:12:45.380 two things actually but number one is take the risk be willing to take the risk to walk up to new people

00:12:50.200 when when you are invested in outcomes that are positive so whether it be business networking whether

00:12:56.320 it's you're single and want to meet people you're in transition and just want to build your friendship

00:13:00.580 community because you just moved to new york city whatever it may be you you need to go places

00:13:06.680 that you want to be at so whether it's a spin class or whether it's a an after hours for an association

00:13:12.300 event whatever it may be you need to take the risk of not only attending but number two walking up to new

00:13:18.860 people so i always tell people if you feel overwhelmed by that turn it into a task i i when i approach a

00:13:27.060 networking event tell myself i'll meet let's say two new people brad or five new people i mean i doubt

00:13:32.360 that i would pick five but two or three new people one new person make it a task tell yourself you're

00:13:37.960 going to do it and then once you've met two new people you've met your task then you can drink or you

00:13:44.800 can leave or you can go sit in the lobby and wait until it's time to sit down for dinner so that's

00:13:49.300 number one be willing to take the risk to walk up to someone new number two second primary thing is to

00:13:55.000 assume the burden anybody listening right now that's either shy and or introverted two different things

00:14:01.260 knows what i'm talking about and can relate when i say that we are the nicest people on the planet

00:14:06.200 by far however we are so self-centered in social interactions that the only person's comfort

00:14:13.260 we are concerned with is our own i like i i identified earlier if you walked up to me and

00:14:20.100 started a conversation i was far more comfortable now i assume the burden of walking up to you

00:14:24.300 in addition to that we're walking down a long long hall brett we're going into a meeting because

00:14:28.860 i'm going to pitch my program to you or my software package or whatever and it's a long

00:14:35.360 haul from the reception area where you came to get me to your office who's assuming the burden of

00:14:40.920 keeping the conversation going during this long long walk if i'm a candidate and you're interviewing

00:14:46.060 me for a job who's assuming the burden well i'll guarantee you the decision maker isn't assuming

00:14:51.480 the burden you need to assume the burden of making that decision maker feel comfortable during that

00:14:56.780 long walk if i'm sitting at a table of eight brett i used to hope people like you outgoing you know

00:15:02.740 fun people would sit at that table of eight you'll keep the conversation going right wrong it's now up to

00:15:08.600 me to assume the burden of making everybody at that table of eight feel comfortable by that i mean

00:15:13.720 i'll come up with things to talk about i'll include people at the table i'll throw the conversation ball

00:15:19.080 to other people at the table and include them assume the burden of making people feel comfortable

00:15:24.100 when they're with you if you do that they'll feel good about you if they feel good about themselves

00:15:28.640 when they're with you they'll feel good about you yeah and one of the other things about assuming the

00:15:32.520 burden and just taking that that approach is that what i found is that most people are waiting

00:15:37.640 for someone else to assume the burden like there usually isn't like an extrovert there's usually

00:15:42.800 everyone is waiting for someone else to take care of everyone else absolutely or they just

00:15:46.720 haven't invested in thinking about being a good conversationalist they just i used to hope we

00:15:52.820 would hit it off brett now i don't hope i i employ skills to like i said i'll hit it off with anybody

00:15:59.840 unless they're abusive or a class a jerk you know if they're if they're gonna shut me down or

00:16:06.400 interrupt all the time that's a different ballgame right and another thing you talk about in the book

00:16:11.860 with related to assuming the burden that i liked that's helped me a lot with my small talk is like

00:16:16.760 think of yourself as a host because yeah when i'm a host at my own home like it's just like yeah i'm

00:16:21.720 going to take care of everyone no matter what so it's like you can take that mentality outside of

00:16:26.640 your home and just say i'm going to take care of people and make them feel comfortable and good

00:16:29.980 so can i can i can i throw out something here brett sure i hope the listeners really heard what you

00:16:35.480 just said first of all i'm very flattered that you actually read the book number one number two

00:16:39.260 then they listen to your podcast regularly you're a trusted resource right and my i mean i don't know

00:16:47.240 you but you sound very confident very comfortable and very you're you're not assert you are assertive

00:16:54.180 you're very you're you're directing this and you're so good at it well thank you and yet i hope that

00:16:59.180 you're welcome but i hope everyone is listening i mean i've been interviewed many times including on

00:17:03.940 those big shows you know the station and everything and this is not always the case so now we're listening

00:17:08.820 to somebody who's really good at what he does at least when it comes to this right brett and yet

00:17:13.320 you are telling me you are i hope everybody heard what brett just said he found that if he put on this

00:17:20.300 hat of of of exhibiting host behavior that and assuming the burden that it really helped him

00:17:26.480 in small talk so just because we're capable at what we do for work does not mean that it is

00:17:34.080 unmanly to admit that we need some help in small talk in order to just sort of make things work

00:17:40.620 better with people to build that rapport and i just i i just i just am so uh i so admire someone

00:17:47.400 that acknowledges that just because i know how to do my profession doesn't mean small talk comes

00:17:52.140 easily to me i look you learned it as a craft just like i did brett no yeah and like i go into that

00:17:57.280 idea like i think of it at like small talk as a craft and like i'll even just go to things just to

00:18:02.660 practice small talk right because i work from home so it's just me and my wife and my kids so i don't

00:18:09.760 get much interaction with other people besides my family so i'm like i make it a point to try to like

00:18:14.000 okay i'm just gonna i'm gonna have lunch with someone so i can practice this the skill of small

00:18:17.800 talks i know it's important i agree you know i actually joined a civic organization i won't mention

00:18:22.440 it 20 years ago when i first started my business because i was alone all the time and i felt

00:18:27.860 obviously i'm talking about a topic where i shouldn't be alone all the time but in addition

00:18:32.500 to that i needed to constantly practice i mean i need anecdotes in that too so it's once a week and

00:18:37.860 i don't get there as often as once a week because my travel schedule but i i go and as recently as

00:18:42.860 last friday i accepted an invitation to some mentoring uh fundraiser because a colleague bought

00:18:48.240 a table and i went so number one i you know i sort of dragged myself out of the office because

00:18:53.020 there's a great quote from john le carré the author he says a desk is a dangerous place to

00:18:59.160 view the world i mean you just said that in your own words but and i make myself so i made i said

00:19:04.140 you're gonna say yes to this luncheon because you can and so then i went and i walked in and i knew i

00:19:09.340 would know people because it's where i live in denver so i know a lot of people now i'm very visible

00:19:13.980 here but instead of looking for somebody i knew i did what i'm going to ask everybody listening do

00:19:19.240 and that is i looked for somebody standing by themselves that i did not know because i wanted

00:19:24.100 to practice small stuff i mean and i don't mean to sound ungenuine i wasn't using her like as a lab

00:19:28.860 rat i was using her as a real person because every conversation is an opportunity you you never know

00:19:34.100 so i i mean i admire you that you because it's very isolating now with technology and a lot of us

00:19:40.540 are entrepreneurs and we are alone but there's a lot of people listening that are in the corporate

00:19:44.380 world and they're alone they're sitting with headsets on the they they eat lunch alone they

00:19:49.600 they go on the subway and they don't talk to people and i think it's a skill that we have to

00:19:54.740 practice in order to be good at and speaking another point you make in the book i thought was really

00:19:59.020 insightful was that because we are the way we communicate is all online now text email etc the

00:20:06.420 ability to communicate with small talk conversation that has become like rare and as a consequence

00:20:12.280 there's a premium on it right so the better you're able to communicate face to face like you're going

00:20:18.520 to be you're going to increase your value not only professionally but also personally as well because

00:20:21.780 no one else has everyone else has a hard time doing it i agree and there's another thing is is

00:20:26.740 because face-to-face interaction isn't occurring as often as it used to i mean even you you you watch

00:20:32.440 congress they used to golf together they used to eat together they used to they don't do any of

00:20:35.760 that anymore which is of course i think why we have so much divisiveness is because if i don't know

00:20:40.180 you and i don't know about your kids and your wife then why do i care about you and you can become my

00:20:44.940 enemy pretty easily but i i think if you're if you're if you put yourself out there for face-to-face

00:20:51.380 interaction you're bound to build your business gain referrals build your network i mean the time to

00:20:56.200 build your network isn't when you lose your job or you're worried that they're downsizing the time to

00:20:59.900 build your network is now when things are going great so that you do have somebody to call on and say

00:21:04.220 who do you know that might be looking for someone with this skill set

00:21:07.500 and so those face-to-face interactions count you send me a linkedin invitation i never met you

00:21:12.600 that counts for nothing in my in my world what counts is me meeting you face-to-face if i possibly

00:21:18.060 can and building a relationship where we stay in touch over the course of a year once or twice

00:21:22.820 i love that all right let's get into some tactics here let's talk about the thing i think what makes

00:21:27.640 everyone afraid is you know starting small talk with a stranger and let's say you're at an event

00:21:32.480 where it's not a networking event where there's an expectation people are going to talk to each other

00:21:37.140 but let's say you're at a wedding or some other like you're or you're just on the subway how do

00:21:42.420 you know if someone is even willing to engage in small talk well the key is to look for somebody

00:21:47.360 approachable so if i'm on the subway next to you and you're on your device then i'm guessing you're

00:21:53.340 unapproachable because you're engaged in another activity of course you know a lot of people are

00:21:57.360 pretending to be on their devices we all know that right right whatever that's a whole nother thing

00:22:02.780 and and but what i look for the subway is a tough thing brett because i mean people do really wall

00:22:09.960 off there but if you weren't walled off i'd say you know are you from new york city or something like

00:22:14.400 that to somebody that was not with their head in a book or with headphones in their ears but let's go

00:22:19.640 back to a party or a wedding i look for somebody standing by themselves who is not already engaged in

00:22:25.640 another activity i've had so much success with this i could just go on and on i mean i've had to go to

00:22:30.060 my husband's dental reunions at the university of iowa and and when i go i'm i'm his second wife i

00:22:37.200 mean he's my second husband for whatever that's worth but so his first wife was with him when he

00:22:41.280 went to the university of iowa and became a periodontist so i don't want to have these

00:22:46.800 reunions to walk around with steve and have him go yeah no this is deborah it's not blah blah

00:22:52.280 that's just a waste of saliva so i always say during the mingling time steve you do your thing i'll do

00:22:58.660 my thing and i look around the room and i look for somebody standing by themselves it has never

00:23:02.560 backfired because i'll just walk up to them and say what's your connection to this you know are you

00:23:06.720 were you a dental student here are you a spouse a partner a kid or whatever and that launches the

00:23:11.400 conversation i do the same thing at weddings how are you connected to the bride or groom i do it at

00:23:16.080 baby showers i do it when i go to one of my kids like this weekend one of my kids is graduating from

00:23:21.500 grad school back east so i will go back east and i guarantee you what i will do at graduation is i'll walk up to

00:23:27.320 other parents and say tell me about your kid because i you know first of all because i know my son's not

00:23:31.920 going to talk to me he's going to be all worried about his friends and yada yada but i just i just put

00:23:37.040 that hat on like i'm going to talk to new people and i look for somebody standing by themselves that

00:23:42.080 that seems approachable a good place to do that is after services at church or synagogue if you're

00:23:47.300 in a volunteer organization look for someone that's not already huddled in a group that's the best person

00:23:52.260 to talk to and do you just go up and like you do you start off with that question or do you introduce

00:23:56.540 yourself what's the best approach there well i introduce myself first otherwise it's just too

00:24:00.780 shocking obviously unless of course you know brad sometimes we've met the person you know we've met

00:24:05.580 them in the office but we've never talked to them right right they're at a holiday party we've met

00:24:09.920 them they've been introduced as the woman that heads up it now and we shook their hand but we've

00:24:14.420 never so then you don't have to introduce yourself so you introduce yourself and then the best way to

00:24:19.340 to launch a conversation in my opinion is to to employ free information about occasion or location

00:24:25.660 so an example that i just cited was at a wedding either they're wedding crashers of course i guess

00:24:31.280 that's possible or they're somehow connected to the bride or groom so the free information is we're at

00:24:35.540 the same occasion how are you connected to the bride or groom if i'm in a fundraiser you know what

00:24:39.840 got you involved in this charity so somebody might say i'm a guest oh who you know who's your guest how

00:24:44.820 are they involved or i you know i got involved in this charity because i you know my mother had

00:24:49.720 cancer okay so you've launched a conversation if i run the boulder boulder at the end of this month

00:24:55.460 here in colorado and i'm standing at the start line waiting for our horn to go off for my section i can

00:25:00.340 turn to somebody next to me the free information is we're at the same location occasion you know is

00:25:05.760 this the first time you've run the boulder boulder so that's if i'm at a conference i'll ask is this your

00:25:10.680 first time at this conference or what other conferences do you attend that benefit you what

00:25:15.600 did you think of the keynote speaker this morning that's the free information i have here's a real

00:25:19.660 easy one if i'm in cincinnati ohio i'll say to somebody next to me are you from cincinnati because

00:25:27.420 they either are or they're not if they're from there i'll just say you know i'm a visitor what

00:25:31.240 would you say the highlight if i had time to be a tourist that i should go visit or i'll say have you

00:25:35.980 ever lived somewhere else if they say they're not from cincinnati i'll ask where they're from and what

00:25:39.640 brought them there that's free information we're in we're all in cincinnati at that moment are you

00:25:44.280 from cincinnati gotcha so that's the best way to do it no i think that's that's powerful and in the

00:25:49.560 book you have some other great you know icebreakers openers you can use for whatever situation whether

00:25:54.100 it's personal or business so i encourage everyone to check that out there but what do you do i think

00:25:59.180 so i think a lot of people they don't have a problem starting a conversation but there's some

00:26:03.140 people who like okay i got the conversation going how do i keep it going because they're afraid

00:26:07.740 of those lulls or there's those silences so what do you do to keep that conversation going well i'm

00:26:14.020 going to answer that question one second first i'm going to throw out that whether you're an

00:26:17.060 introvert or an extrovert sometimes people just don't shut up they're like that brett well let's

00:26:23.560 play along with me for a second i mean we've never done this brett sure i just met you let's see so

00:26:27.620 what what do you do for a living brett i run a website called the art of manliness and a podcast as

00:26:33.200 well and where are you from brett originally um from oklahoma city oh yeah so what you've all

00:26:38.440 witnessed all you listeners is an fbi agent at work did you hear i mean literally like a batting

00:26:43.540 cage just hitting them over the head with question after question that aren't even related to one

00:26:47.560 another so you know a lot of people will tell you oh ask a lot of questions show an interest well you

00:26:52.480 should definitely show a genuine interest in somebody clearly but but if you want to keep a

00:26:57.260 conversation going don't pepper people with questions that are all over the board so the

00:27:02.980 best way i know to start a conversation is so let's let's go but if you don't do you mind playing

00:27:06.980 with me no let's do it yeah i think this is really useful so so let's say let's pretend it was

00:27:11.720 appropriate for me to say if we're in a professional setting and we're at a networking event i i can say to

00:27:17.420 you so tell me about your work so you tell me that you you know you own this business and uh there's

00:27:23.420 right yeah the way you answered right so what i should have said to you is so you know what's

00:27:28.420 involved on a daily basis or um how do you monetize that or tell me how you came up with that or what's

00:27:37.080 the greatest challenge of doing that as an entrepreneur anything to stay on topic it's what

00:27:42.660 i call in the book and i'll just i call it in real life digging in deeper digging in deeper is staying

00:27:48.200 on the same topic if my when when i walk in the house tonight because i i'm books this afternoon

00:27:54.400 when i walk in the house tonight my husband's going to say to me well probably i'm guessing how was your

00:28:00.120 day right isn't that what's going to happen all over america tonight like that's what our spouses

00:28:04.020 partners whatever how was your day or where's dinner no he better not ask me that okay so how was

00:28:09.400 your day so here's the deal i'm not sure if steve means that how i mean we've been now we haven't

00:28:14.900 been married a long time and you know there's an nba playoffs on right now there's nhl playoffs like

00:28:19.900 that is his life so when he says how was your day he might probably mean brett hello right that's what

00:28:25.140 you know so if he would like to indicate to me that he'd like to keep the conversation going he

00:28:29.060 needs to then say to me how was your day deborah good so what'd you have on your plate today tell me

00:28:34.300 about your work today or something to indicate that he really means it so when you say to somebody at

00:28:39.320 a networking event how's the conference going for you and they say great say what was the highlight

00:28:44.020 you know what'd you enjoy the most or what was different than what you expected something along

00:28:48.700 those lines so now i'm on a date brett let's pretend again i would be on it and i would say

00:28:53.500 to you who you're not dating either hopefully and i say so brett how was your week and you say great

00:28:59.300 thanks how was yours well well brett you know what tell me about a project you're working on i've let

00:29:05.120 you know i really want to know how was your week right right so dig in deeper to keep the conversation

00:29:10.900 going another great way to keep the conversation going is i never walk into an event a meeting with

00:29:16.860 a client if i was dating i would i would definitely do the same i am always prepared brett so if i've

00:29:24.500 never met you which is typically the case at a party or that type of or a networking event i'm prepared

00:29:30.060 with things to talk about current events not politics because that's just too intense now but but

00:29:36.080 something relatable what are you looking forward to the most about summer we're all going to experience

00:29:41.380 summer at least in north america we are right okay so you know what do you look forward to about

00:29:45.480 summer what's what are you most excited about now brett so i'm prepared if i'm going to a charity event

00:29:52.360 to ask certain things like that if i've ever met you before like you you were it was very interesting

00:29:57.200 what you did for me during this during our interview and that is you disclose that you have a wife and

00:30:01.940 kids i didn't know that because everybody listen carefully it is not cool to say to somebody are you

00:30:07.060 married because what if they say no where are we headed in this conversation how's this one do you

00:30:13.060 have any kids no well that's the end of that conversation let's move on to another way to start

00:30:18.400 a conversation that keeps a conversation going okay if i meet you at a party brett i would never say

00:30:24.940 to you what do you what do you do because what if you're in transition what if you stay home with the

00:30:29.640 kids what if you i don't know i don't want to label people i want to have a decent conversation with

00:30:34.280 you that has nothing to do with work so i would probably say to you and i know i do this with

00:30:40.120 people i'll say what keeps you busy if i met you at a barbecue i'd say what keeps you busy and then

00:30:45.460 you'll tell me something you'll tell me about the kids you'll tell me about the work you'll tell me

00:30:49.140 something now if i've met you and i know you work because you work for my company we're at a networking

00:30:53.960 situation it's a business class anything like that or you have a name tag on that identifies that

00:30:59.440 you're with you know wells fargo i will say to you brett what keeps you busy outside of your work

00:31:06.860 i think it is one of the best ways to launch a conversation in a professional setting because

00:31:11.920 you're not talking about but you'll get to the business you don't have to talk about business

00:31:16.180 right away certainly don't want to be one of those people that's identified as someone that only cares

00:31:20.860 about a transaction or is only there to work the room instead i'll say something like to you at a

00:31:28.160 table of eight what keeps you busy outside of work or i'll say you know what do you do for fun brett

00:31:32.480 and you'll either introduce your kids at that point or you'll talk about some fitness thing you're

00:31:37.020 involved with or that you're into film or and now we're launching a conversation that's real and it

00:31:42.640 can go yeah and then it can go a lot of different places too it can go a lot of different places but i

00:31:47.680 think i'll get to know you and that's my real goal is i want to get to know even if we only have five

00:31:51.940 minutes to get to know the real you instead of saying well what do you do well what do you do and

00:31:55.860 then we're just sort of like who cares you know another cpa you know but if i get to know you if

00:32:00.940 i say what keeps you busy outside of work and i find out that you're into yoga and i ask you how

00:32:06.180 you got into it and how you know you know what's the hardest pose or you know you become more

00:32:12.040 interesting to me and if you're more interesting to me i might be more willing to work with you

00:32:15.860 gotcha and i imagine during this time too like you're not just asking questions like you know how do

00:32:20.080 like you need to also provide you know say things about yourself because then because it can if you

00:32:26.860 don't it starts feeling like you're on law and order getting interrogated absolutely so let's talk

00:32:31.980 about that two things number one is when someone asks you a question play the conversation game

00:32:39.220 so if somebody says to you how's your day when you say pretty good you're not playing the conversation

00:32:45.400 game you're you're just you're nowhere as a matter of fact this this is a typical conversation how's

00:32:50.080 your day pretty good how about you pretty good well now we we're still back to square zero we have we

00:32:56.000 have not progressed in at all so i'm always prepared when someone when i want to talk to someone when i

00:33:02.860 want to connect with them and i have the time i mean if i'm passing you down the hall brett and i've

00:33:07.220 got a deadline and i don't have time to chit chat and you say deborah how was your weekend i'll say

00:33:12.260 pretty good and keep i hope yours was good too and i'll keep walking brett okay because you know

00:33:16.860 it's larry david uh curb your enthusiasm any fans out there he has a an expression he coined that i

00:33:23.500 love he is opposed to the stop and chat just because we're passing each other in the hall does

00:33:28.800 not mean i'm required to stop and chat with you brett nor are you required to stop and chat with me on

00:33:33.240 elevators at the hostess stand etc but when i'm at a networking event or i go on a date and you say

00:33:39.180 how was your week deborah i better have a sentence ready you say to me how was your week i'm going to

00:33:44.260 say something along the lines of i had a great week i i you know i was able to get to the gym

00:33:49.080 five times which is my goal but i don't always make it because you know work has been super busy lately

00:33:54.000 that's playing the conversation game you didn't go on and on deborah talking about your aches and

00:33:59.540 pains or all those challenges at work or how much you hate your boss you simply gave a little bit of

00:34:04.780 detail about your week so that he on this date would have something to talk with you about so

00:34:10.000 what do you do at the gym or you know when do you go to the gym or how how did you get to be so

00:34:14.460 disciplined something along those lines so if you say to me deborah how's your year been because let's

00:34:21.580 say you and i run into each other twice a year how's your year been deborah i'm always prepared to give

00:34:26.040 you a good answer so i i probably would say you know my son is is graduating from a grad school

00:34:32.620 uh and i'm and we're really looking forward to this ordeal for him being over with something you

00:34:37.580 know and now now if you're interested in me you'll ask about my son or what kind what he studied if

00:34:42.420 you're not interested in me i planted a seed brett you see people that have sons that are in graduate

00:34:47.680 school are human beings if you say to me deborah how's it going and i say great you know i planted

00:34:52.540 my flowers this weekend and we already had hail i have given you something to talk about with me plus

00:34:59.700 i've become three-dimensional you know people that plant flowers brett even if you don't plant

00:35:04.500 flowers people that plant flowers they are human beings and we are much more relatable to people that

00:35:10.640 are three-dimensional even if we don't have the commonality so if i say how's it going and you say

00:35:15.080 i saw the avengers movie i you know i really liked it i mean i haven't seen it brett so i'm making

00:35:21.180 this up i saw the avengers movie i really liked it you've given me something to talk about with you

00:35:26.600 plus without even realizing it you have become three-dimensional to me because people that go

00:35:32.620 to movies are three-dimensional they're not just cpas or engineers or fourth grade teachers

00:35:37.600 you must play the conversation game also the second point i wanted to make is when you disclose things

00:35:44.880 about yourself now they it doesn't have to be tmi it doesn't have to be you know your long loss

00:35:50.280 whatever but if when people disclose that they when i disclose that i've been divorced and i'm on my

00:35:55.960 second marriage my guess is people in your audience that have been divorced if we had been one-on-one

00:36:01.560 they would have been willing to disclose that they had been divorced too once you disclose something

00:36:06.700 about yourself other people are willing to disclose about themselves so it doesn't have to be that

00:36:11.120 personal about divorce it could be something as simple as i'm really looking forward to how are you

00:36:16.320 deborah great i'm really looking forward to summer because i'm going on a cycling vacation

00:36:20.220 people are more likely to talk about their vacations now or if they cycle or that they

00:36:26.800 were on a vacation last year because i disclosed that i am looking forward to a vacation so that's

00:36:32.440 why it's such a critical piece to not give one word answers unless you don't want to talk to me

00:36:36.860 right another powerful tool that i've used uh in small talk that is from your book is this acronym

00:36:42.700 form whenever i'm kind of like how do i keep this conversation going so what briefly what does that

00:36:47.860 form acronym mean and how can that be used to keep conversations going well i the acronym that i use

00:36:53.940 for form is family so talk about someone's family now remember i don't think it's cool to say are you

00:36:59.600 married brett but i could ask you brett if if we had time to hang out before the interview tell me

00:37:04.660 about your family brett everybody's got a family all different kinds of families they're all i'm in a

00:37:09.060 blended one right some people will say when you say tell me about your family and say well i have a

00:37:13.400 sister in florida and my parents still live in wisconsin where i'm from that's an answer okay

00:37:18.540 so that's number one f is for family o is for occupation so like i said what keeps you busy

00:37:25.040 i i prefer that but sometimes in a professional setting i'll say tell me about your work or what

00:37:29.880 you do for a living i don't i don't know if you caught this well i did not say to you what do you

00:37:34.740 when we were play acting i did not say what do you do because it's just it's almost so lame these

00:37:40.000 days so i say what do you do for a living because what do you do well what i mean some people have

00:37:43.800 gotten sarcastic with me and said well what do you mean what do i do right right so you know what

00:37:49.660 do you do for a living i i like that question a little better if that's an appropriate setting

00:37:53.240 are in the word form is for recreation so what do you do for fun what keeps you busy outside of work

00:38:00.100 you know what tell me about your hobbies or what interests you outside of your work anything like

00:38:04.260 that sometimes i'll ask someone you know what are you excited about this year now that can go into

00:38:09.220 recreation sometimes people will say you know i i got a promotion and sort of head back into work

00:38:14.600 and then lastly m is for motivation you know what what motivates you brett what you know what what's

00:38:20.920 it what is exciting in your life or what what motivated you to start this business or what motivates

00:38:25.940 you know what what what has changed about your motivation since you were in your 20s i'm so brett

00:38:31.520 you know i know that you're not in your 20s okay but if i could see you i mean brett looks great but

00:38:36.360 whatever so you know what what's motivating you now that's different from what motivated you when

00:38:40.780 you were in your 20s i could ask anybody and i could ask somebody in their 20s what motivates you

00:38:45.640 now that's different before you went to college so what's your motivation so family occupation

00:38:51.700 recreation motivation i love that so what i usually do is i'll try to start off with like with a

00:38:55.740 contextual icebreaker to get the ball going and then you know things start running out then i might go

00:39:01.660 fall back to the form one of the letters right can i can i make a point about that too i mean

00:39:07.220 usually if you assume the burden a conversation will work as long as you're prepared with things

00:39:12.260 to talk about just as you describe with form okay that you use that as a fallback but let me just

00:39:17.480 throw out to everybody when it doesn't work when it doesn't work because somebody's giving you one

00:39:22.820 word answers they're not helping you along in the conversation please pat yourself on the back for

00:39:27.660 trying and leave them i mean unless it's your mother-in-law i suppose or your boss not not

00:39:33.920 everyone is willing to have a conversation with you if you approach me at an event and i'm a networker

00:39:39.040 who works rooms i i see your name tag brett and i'm there to sell software to attorneys and i recognize

00:39:46.680 immediately that you're not an attorney and don't represent a law firm then i i'm not going to i'm if

00:39:53.280 i'm one of those people that's the shallow person no matter what icebreaker you use it's not going to

00:39:57.980 work because i've decided based on your name tag that i don't want to talk to you so i'm going to

00:40:01.600 give you one word answers and i'm not going to help you along in the conversation so i want everybody

00:40:06.660 listening to to to have the confidence to know that your icebreaker there is no perfect line we're all

00:40:14.040 wishing we had a perfect line but there's no such thing people decide before you open your mouth

00:40:18.240 whether they're willing to talk to you or not so part of the fear of like you know not being in

00:40:23.620 control is okay i start this conversation what if i need to get out of it and how do i do so

00:40:29.280 gracefully i think that's a fear that a lot of people have so what's your tips on you know bowing

00:40:33.640 out of a conversation gracefully so let me i will answer your question but i the other reason that we

00:40:38.980 need to bow out is sometimes you're easy to talk to brett i you know you're an entrepreneur i'm an

00:40:44.760 entrepreneur you have kids i have kids you have a wife i have a husband we could probably be you're

00:40:49.420 easy to talk to so why would i ever leave you brett to talk to somebody else at this party this is easy

00:40:56.080 i'll just hang out here but what if i promise myself i'd meet two new people here or what if

00:41:00.360 there's other people standing alone that i'm really conscious of or what if it's a business networking

00:41:04.900 event and i really do need to gain some more visibility to gain referrals so that's another good

00:41:10.680 reason to leave someone is because you are there to make the most of the meeting or the opportunity

00:41:16.300 to meet new people okay so how do you leave people so there's a couple ways most of us do this and

00:41:23.140 there's nothing wrong with it they say i need brett i need to get um a cup of coffee i haven't had

00:41:28.020 enough caffeine today or brett i need to take off you know i have a deadline at the office uh it's been

00:41:33.340 great talking to you if by the way if you can show appreciation at the end of each conversation so

00:41:39.260 for instance today if i was exiting you face to face i would say gosh you know it's really been

00:41:44.760 interesting hearing about your business so if you can say anything nice without going on and on you're

00:41:50.180 not paraphrasing you're not summarizing just acknowledge gosh your son sounds like a lot of

00:41:54.100 fun or wow that sounds like a really tough you know tough challenge that you're dealing with at work

00:41:58.740 okay so show show some acknowledgement of the conversation now i need i need to get some coffee brett you

00:42:04.360 know i haven't you know gotten my fill of caffeine today and on my way to get coffee you can you

00:42:08.920 see the coffee station it's it's outside the the conference room right it's out in that reception

00:42:13.300 area but on my way to get the coffee i run into andrea andrea oh my gosh it's been forever i haven't

00:42:20.660 seen you forever how are you and brett sees me talking to andrea or he maybe doesn't even know

00:42:26.320 who she is it's irrelevant i don't have coffee in my hand do i people feel like you blew them off be

00:42:32.240 really careful when you say i need when you say you need to get back to the office and you run into

00:42:36.420 andrea on your way out the door or down the hall this is what you need to say to andrea andrea

00:42:40.940 join me i'm headed back to my office so you're walking down the hall join me because i'm headed

00:42:45.460 back to my office i have a deadline so people see you're still walking to your office if i say i

00:42:49.580 needed coffee brett when i run into andrea this is what i'm going to say to andrea andrea once you

00:42:54.200 join me i need to get coffee or i'll say andrea i'll be right back i'm getting a cup of coffee

00:42:57.560 i really want to catch up because that's the deal brett when i say i need to do something i you better

00:43:03.400 see me do it or you're going to feel like i burnt a bridge with you okay the other way to get there's

00:43:08.240 a couple other ways to get away from people that i know of wave the white flag the white flag is what

00:43:14.060 they use in car racing it indicates to the drivers that there's one more lap and then the race is over

00:43:22.400 so let's just pretend brett i'm just going to pick on you for a second you said you had kids i don't know

00:43:27.320 how many but let's say you're just going on and on like one is like in ap classes already the other

00:43:32.820 one's going to be an olympic superstar and the bragging and the ad nauseum about your kids and i

00:43:39.180 i just can't listen to it anymore so this is i'm going to exit you first i'm going to acknowledge it

00:43:44.420 gosh you know brett sounds like you have great kids i mean i can say that i might not think i might

00:43:49.700 think it's ridiculous but i can say it sounds like you have great kids and here's the white flag brett

00:43:54.240 gosh you know things have changed so much raising kids these days you know before i take off i'd really

00:44:01.140 like to hear what would you say the number one challenge is i've let you know i'm about to take

00:44:05.080 off brett you can get out of this with dignity you really can by wrapping it up and giving me a

00:44:10.480 concise answer and or you can continue babbling about how amazing your children are and i will

00:44:15.300 then because i've given you the white flag and said you know i'm gonna i need to take off in a couple of

00:44:19.200 minutes but before i do you know what's the number one challenge in raising kids today if you keep

00:44:23.620 going on and have a narrative i'll say like i said i really need to take off when we see this on

00:44:28.760 you're gonna do it to me brett at one point you're gonna say deborah one last question i mean i if i

00:44:35.300 can keep babbling but my guess is you're turning this off right you're gonna turn me off so in real

00:44:40.580 life i'm gonna do the same thing gosh that project sounds you know like it's been really frustrating

00:44:45.360 for you brett um you know i'd like to hear how you're gonna combat it i've only got a couple minutes

00:44:50.960 left before i i need to uh take off because i see there's other clients here in the room that i need

00:44:55.740 to catch up with so what would you say that the number one challenge is for you i like that so

00:45:00.340 again you're you're assuming the burden of ending the conversation absolutely i'm not gonna let you

00:45:04.620 hold me hostage and go on about your project or your stories you know that's a big thing now brett

00:45:10.140 since i've written that book everybody's supposed to learn how to craft their story and tell their

00:45:15.080 story you know i don't really want to hear a 10 minute story about you unless we've become

00:45:19.480 close friends i want to hear a three or four minute story from you about your kids your work

00:45:24.540 whatever that's my rule for myself brett i'm not allowed to talk about myself more than three to

00:45:29.100 four minutes i can't talk about my vacation my kids my business my anything and then i have to

00:45:34.980 after three or four minutes no matter how interested you are in my amazing children i need to throw the

00:45:40.780 conversation ball back and say tell me about your family brett or tell me about your work how you got

00:45:45.400 into that see i know my story i know all about it every detail what i don't know is about you

00:45:51.040 so let's stop giving these narratives that just go on and on only because someone appears to be

00:45:56.900 genuinely interested and they might be genuinely interested because they're nodding they're giving

00:46:01.420 me eye contact they're giving verbal cues by the way that's another way to keep a conversation going

00:46:06.080 give verbal cues oh really brett well give me an example of what you mean by that gosh what happened

00:46:12.960 first brett oh so then what happened geez you're kidding that's fun give verbal cues it encourages

00:46:21.760 people to keep talking and of course lets them know that you're listening so let's say i've got

00:46:26.480 somebody that's doing that with me how'd you lose all that weight deborah you're giving me verbal cues

00:46:30.960 you're you're giving me eye contact you're nodding well if i'm not careful i'm still talking about my

00:46:37.500 weight loss 10 minutes later that's not cool i've become a monopolizer three minutes into it i'll

00:46:42.760 throw the ball back how do you stay fit brett gotcha i love that well thank you waving the white flag

00:46:48.000 here this is uh this has been a great conversation deborah um where can people go to learn more about

00:46:53.180 your work well thanks for asking brett i and that's another thing issue the invitation if you're in a

00:46:59.720 business situation say you know i'd like to reach out to you i'd like to stay in touch do something

00:47:04.160 don't just like cold call me like three days from now the same with dating like you know i'd really

00:47:09.120 like to stay in touch don't just you know find her on facebook say i'd really like to stay in touch

00:47:14.820 issue the invitation face to face it's so much better and if she declines she declines she's

00:47:19.280 going to decline anyways and ghost you so get it over with so you can learn more about me at

00:47:24.620 deborah fine.com that's d-e-b-r-a-f-i-n-e.com everything's there and thanks thank you for asking and

00:47:31.920 my books are there and of course you can go to amazon as well or any bookstore for this book

00:47:36.640 well deborah fine thank you so much for your time it's been a pleasure same here brett honest

00:47:40.540 to goodness really fun thank you my guest today was deborah fine she's the author of the book the

00:47:44.480 fine art of small talk it's available on amazon.com you can also find out more information about her

00:47:48.460 work at deborah fine.com that's d-e-b-r-a-f-i-n-e.com also check out our show notes at

00:47:54.660 aom.is slash small talk where you can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic

00:47:59.360 well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice

00:48:12.040 make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com and if you enjoy

00:48:15.500 the show i've gotten something out of it i'd appreciate if you take one minute to give

00:48:18.560 this review on itunes or stitcher helps out a lot as always thank you for your continued

00:48:22.240 support until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay manly

00:48:25.860 you

The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

#406： Why You Need to Embrace Small Talk

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