#407： How to Overcome Nice Guy Syndrome
Episode Stats
Summary
In his new book, "Not Nice," Dr. Aziz Ghazipura makes the case that being nice is holding a lot of men back in their lives. In fact, he argues that being a nice guy is actually a problem.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. We've been told
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since we were little kids to be nice. But what if being nice isn't really that good and it's making
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you and those around you absolutely miserable? That's the provocative argument my guest today
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makes. His name is Dr. Aziz Ghazipura. He's a psychologist and the founder of the Social
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Confidence Center. And in his latest book, Not Nice, he makes the case that being nice is holding a lot of
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men back in their lives. We begin the show by talking about what most people think nice means,
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but how it usually plays out in reality. And then Dr. Aziz digs into the issues that pop up over and
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over again in the lives of people pleasers like anxiety, depression, anger, and resentment. We
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then discuss what the opposite of nice is. And no, it's not being a complete jerk. He then shares
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specific tactics that chronically nice can start using today to be more assertive, like saying no
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without feeling guilty, getting over feeling responsible for everyone's feelings, and stating your
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preferences. If you're a chronic nice guy, this episode is for you. After the show's over, check out the
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show notes at aom.is slash not nice. Aziz Ghazipura, welcome to the show.
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Thanks. Thanks for having me, Brad. I'm excited about this.
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So you are a psychologist. You do counseling with individuals and you wrote a book that has an
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intriguing title, not nice. Because the way you frame the issue in the book is that niceness
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is a problem for a lot of people. So before we get into why niceness, being nice is a problem,
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what do you mean by being nice? What do most people think it means to be nice, but how does
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that actually play out in reality? You know, that's a great question. And in my experience working with a
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lot of clients, but also for my own life, I started to see a pattern, which was that the
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people that were the nicest also had the most anxiety, the most social anxiety, the most problems
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with self-esteem. And I started to look at the whole concept a little differently. I said, maybe
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being nice is not so great. And so I started to see it more and more and more, started to talk about
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it with clients, and then came up with this idea of like, I need to put this all in a book. And I was
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starting to write the book. And then I had this strange thought. I was like, wait a minute, maybe
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not everyone is against nice. Maybe nice is good for most people. So I was sitting and having some
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dinner with some friends. And I said, when you guys hear the word nice, like so-and-so is nice,
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would you say that's a positive quality or negative quality? And you know what I found, Brad? It was
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actually very mixed. Some people said, oh, that sounds like they're a really good person. And some
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people said, oh, no, they don't have, you know, they're people-pleasing or whatever. So I realized
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first things first, when I was writing this book, I had to clarify what I mean by
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nice. Because even someone listening right now might think, nice, that's good. That's how you
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want to be. That means you're a good human. And what I mean by nice is actually a very specific
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pattern that is rooted in fear. And at its core, there is an inability to tolerate upset in others.
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I don't want to make you upset. I don't want to do anything that's going to bother you, hurt you,
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burden you, irritate you. And so I'm going to limit myself. I'm going to conform to what I think you
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want so that everything is smooth. And that's really what's behind most nice behavior when you
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look at it. And it's very different from being kind, generous, loving, compassionate, and these
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other high virtues that we actually want to be in life.
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So I mean, when people think they're being nice, they're thinking, I'm putting others first,
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but they're not really putting others first for the person. They're doing it for themselves.
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Because it soothes that anxiety about being rejected or upsetting people. It's all about
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them. Absolutely right. And this is a hard one for people to, it's a little bit of a bitter pill to
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swallow, but it is liberating to see that. I'm doing that because I can't tolerate you being upset with
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me. I'm doing this out of fear. And I mean, so what are some, like you said, some of the ways that
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people, niceness manifests itself in a negative way. Is it just a matter of like not being able to say no,
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flow, just going with the flow, et cetera? I mean, what are some manifestations of this sort of bad
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Sure. It's really all of what you're saying and more. So if I can't do anything that's going to
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make waves, make friction, then I'm going to have to go with the flow no matter what. I'm not going to
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be able to say no to you because that might upset you. I also can't ask for what I want directly
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because of what if that's going to bother you? Well, what if you feel burdened by my asking?
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I'm certainly not going to disagree with you, have conflict with you. I'm not going to point
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out something that bothers me that you did or that's not working. I'm going to keep that all
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inside. I don't want to make waves. I don't want to upset you. So I'm going to hold more and more
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inside. So there's a lot of holding back, restriction, silencing yourself. And then with that,
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we do a lot of mental games to justify why we're doing that. Oh, now's not the time. Oh,
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I should get more. I should just let it go. I should be more relaxed. This shouldn't bother
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me so much. And so we keep this lid on. And so there's a lot of lack of expression of what's
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bothering us. And it's these big things that I'm talking about, not saying no, but it's really
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moment to moment. It's in that conversation. Do I change the subject? If someone says, oh,
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I think such and such, do I just say, oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Or do I say, huh? You think that
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really? Oh, I see it differently. Like that seems very minor, but it infuses everything.
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And so really it's this whole way of approaching life that we steer more and more towards not being
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real and just being what we think is going to please others. And besides the pleasing others,
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right? It's what's being nice is all about. The other thing you talk about in your book is that
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when people are nice, quote unquote, they do so with this idea that, well, if I'm nice,
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then people will return the favor to me. Like they'll give me what I want, but the nice person,
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because they're nice, they don't say what they want. And so they expect everyone just to know
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what they want, but because no one knows what they want, they don't get what they want. So that
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causes the nice person to get angry. It's like this weird symbiosis, like what's it? Yeah.
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Non-virtuous cycle that happens. Sure. Yeah. We get stuck in it. And then there's a lot of
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resentment that can build up from that. And again, stories in the nice person's head that's like,
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I shouldn't have to ask for what I want. If they really loved me, they would just know.
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And that's another non-virtuous cycle because the person doesn't know, but they might love you very
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much or care about you. They just don't know because there's a lack of assertiveness there.
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There's a fear about asking for what we want. And so we avoid it and demand that they know.
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And it just, at the end of the day, it's not about, it doesn't make you a bad person if you're
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doing this. It just is not very effective. And that's my goal is for people to have more effective,
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where they can really have a better relationship, really connect more and love more, whether it's
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for work or personal life, just have better relationships. In your counseling, particularly
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the men, how does niceness, the negatives of being nice, play out in men? And how's that
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different from women? So in both men and women, niceness leads to a lot of passivity.
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And one of the major problems that specifically for men that it manifests as is it severely can
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limit their dating relationships and their love life. They can be so passive, they might not even
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initiate interactions. Or if they do initiate an interaction with someone they're attracted to,
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out of that niceness, they don't want to display or show any attraction, any intent. Like I'm
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interested in you to date or to be with you. So they'll be more platonic and friendly and just
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nice. And the result is they won't really have that much success in their dating life.
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And this is where you get ideas of like nice guys finish last and, you know, oh, women love
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assholes and all these stories. And it's not, I mean, that's a whole other topic. But what's really
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missing is this clear display of like, I'm into you. And yeah, let's, let's, let's see what's there
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because they're kind of hiding it all. So it really severely limits dating and relationships.
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Work is another big area. And what happens is they tend to be more passive in meetings.
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Don't rise to leadership positions. A very common pattern with someone who's too nice
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is they're, they're very good. They're very technically skilled at their job.
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There's a lot of potential to accelerate in their career, but they don't because of these
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issues that we're talking about. And of course, social life, and they still might have friends.
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That doesn't mean they're like, you know, totally lonely and restricted, but it's just the quality
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of the friendships might not be what they want. They might not be as real or authentic with people
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in their lives. And as a result, there can be this sense of loneliness. And that's what I really
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experienced. I mean, I had people that loved me in my life, friends, parents, even as I got more
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boldness and confidence, women and relationships, but I was still doing so much niceness that I
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didn't really feel that love because I was just putting up this front. So they were loving the
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front, but deep down, I wasn't actually feeling that sense of I'm loved for who I am. So along with
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this, there can be a sense of loneliness. Well, yeah, let's talk about that. I mean, you in the book
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describe in vivid detail about your, like your recovering nice guy. I mean, what, what was that
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like for you? And at what point did you discover, like this was getting in the way of you progressing
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in life? That's a great question. I'd say there was probably two stages. The first stage was, I
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don't even know it was niceness. I was just so much social anxiety, self-loathing, low self-esteem,
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and it reached a breaking point. It's like, I have to do something. And then I started to look up
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confidence and dating advice and, and really was desperate enough to face my fear and actually apply
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what I was reading and studying. And in that stage, I was more bold. I became more assertive
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and outgoing in some ways to be able to create dating relationships, even socially. And that
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worked to a degree, but that, what that didn't resolve was the niceness. So I'd kind of be a
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little more bold, but my general disposition was still very nice. And even if I did start to date
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after the first date, or maybe even the first couple of days and we'd sleep together,
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then I'd flip into super nice guy. Um, and one of the biggest pain points for the nice person
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is guilt. And it comes from what I call over responsibility in the book. We take way too
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much responsibility for other people's feelings and nowhere did I do this more than with dating
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relationships. So whatever, whatever I do, I better not create the slightest feeling of discomfort
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in her. Whether she wants to do X and I don't want to do X. I want to do Y. Well, I better just
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do X because I don't want to disappoint her. She wants to hang on a certain day. I better clear my
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schedule. As I say it, it just sounds so extreme, but it was. And so even though I was outwardly a
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bit more bold and confident, this niceness was really plaguing me and it prevented me from actually
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being able to have a lasting long-term relationship because I had no boundaries.
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Yeah. So why do you think the, the over-responsibility got in the way of a lasting
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relationship? Cause I mean, on the, on people would hear like, Oh wow, someone would want to
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stay with you if they're, if you're catering to their needs, but why isn't that the case?
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They might want to stay with me, but I don't want to stay with them. Right. Because the relationship
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starts to become all about the other person. It starts to become a cage and that's how I'd feel.
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I, I would be, I'd want to be this super great guy, the man of her dreams. And I'd play that role
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for as long as I could sustain it, which was usually about three to five weeks.
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And just imagine that you can never say no, you can never really disagree. You can never,
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um, you know, just be you. And how long can you hold that out? And for me, it was about a month.
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And so it doesn't really work because it's, it's not a real relationship. It's a pseudo
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relationship. It's a fear-based, right? It's like, I have to be this way so that you'll stay with me.
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And if you, if I was just me, then that wouldn't work for you. That's the story anyway. And so that's
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why it didn't work. Now here's the thing though. Some, for some people it does, uh, quote work in the
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sense that they stay in the relationship because me, I'd worked on my dating confidence and skill enough
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to be able to know that, that I could go out there and meet someone else.
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And a lot of nice guys haven't developed that ability or skill. So they're like, well, this is,
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this is the best I'm going to get. This is the only attention I'm going to get. So they'll stay in
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that. And that's a common pattern. I've talked to men, clients, or just people that, you know,
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watch my channel, other things who have stayed in relationships for months or even years
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longer than they actually want to, because they don't think there's any other options out there
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for them. And they're just stuck in that nice relationship. Plus, oh my God, it would break
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her heart. I'd be at the worst guy in the world. If I were to leave her, she couldn't handle it,
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uh, over responsibility, you know, all over the place here. And so they're stuck and they're in
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that relationship for, for years. And I imagine like a lot of things with the niceness problem is
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that it builds resentment. Like you feel trapped. You feel like you have no, uh, freedom that you
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have no say. And that just like the resentment, I think is like the kind of recurring theme I saw
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throughout the book that this sort of builds up and builds up and, and guys who are nice.
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It does. And here's the worst part about it though. Like a nice person can't be angry.
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That's not nice. That's one of the first rules of nice training from our parents, right? Don't be
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angry to be nice. And so, but what is, but yet, as you pointed out, there's all this resentment
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building. So what happens? The resentment has to be pushed down, suppressed and go unconscious a lot
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of the time. And that doesn't mean problem solved. That means it's growing in there. We don't know
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what's, it's like mold growing in the yogurt with the lid on the container and it's building. And then
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it comes out in all kinds of ways, depression, um, anxiety, panic attacks, panic attacks is when I
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had physical problems, all kinds of physical pain and injury, stomach problems, back problems, neck
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problems, uh, foot problems, whatever, any part of your body can be affected, migraines. So we have
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all this stuff going on, all this resentment and niceness, and we can just be totally unaware and think
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that we're just trying to be a good person in life. Yeah. And so you said you, you, that resentment
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builds up, you're getting angry. You can't express it because that's not what nice people do. One of the
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ways it manifests itself, that's really annoying is a passive aggressiveness, right? Where you just
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sort of like, you know, you kind of get back at the person, but you're not, you do it like in a
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indirect way. Sure. Yeah. I mean, and a lot of the time people aren't even aware that they're doing it
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again, because to, to be aware, like, Oh, I'm, I'm angry at you. And now I'm going to display that
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in a passive aggressive way that takes a lot of self-awareness. And it also requires that you
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acknowledge that you're really angry at them. And again, for the nice person, that's hard to do.
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We might not say that we are thinking, we might not even not show it to others, but even to ourselves,
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we might not acknowledge it. And so a lot of this passive aggressive stuff is happening
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out of our awareness. It's just, it's subtle things like the person texts you
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or calls or whatever. And instead of texting back, you're like, you look at your phone, you're like,
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I'll get to them later. Just like some aversion towards that person. You know, we just kind of
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distance a little, we push back a little bit, and we don't directly address what's going on
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to resume and get closer to that person. Right. Yeah. Like at work, it could be like,
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if you're resentful towards your boss, you, if they ask you to do something, you're like, Oh,
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I forgot, you know, and that, that can get you in trouble though. Sure. Oh yeah. I mean,
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it doesn't work. Passive aggression is not a very good long-term strategy for relationships at work
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or life, but it's, it really is the best that that person can do at that moment in time,
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because in their mind to be assertive and to say to their boss, okay, this, I, you know,
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I don't understand why you want me to do X doesn't seem the rationale doesn't make sense to me. Can you
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explain why I need to do X? Cause it seems like a lot of work that doesn't seem to bear fruit,
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right? That would be a thing that someone who's assertive might say to their boss to get
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clarity on why they're doing the project. The nice person might be terrified at the idea of doing
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that. So their only option is to say yes. And I talk about this in the book. There's a formula when
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we say yes, but we, we feel like we have to say yes, but we really want to say no inside. We're
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going to feel resentful. And it's just a human animal. And so when that occurs, they got resentment.
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Now what do I do with it? I don't know. Let me just tell my boss. I forgot. Oh yeah. I just
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didn't get around to that task. I don't know what happened. I don't think I got the email.
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Right. Or you might take that resentment. You realize you can't take it out on your boss or
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be assertive with your boss, but you take it out on your family, your kids, your wife, et cetera.
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Because you know, it's easier, right? Cause they're, they're close to you.
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Sure. Yeah. It's less threatening there. That's called a displacement where we take our anger.
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Can't put it at the source, which is scary. So I'll direct it towards someone who's
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So where you mentioned our parents, we learn how to be nice because we're told that, but
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where else do we learn how to, this whole idea of being nice and not asserting ourselves and
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going with the flow and not having boundaries. Where else do we learn this?
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You know, it's pretty built into the socialization of people, especially in United States and other,
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other Western countries as well, where it starts in the family, but then it continues on with school.
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So, but basically our goal in a lot of ways is in society is to create obedience in children.
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And there's sort of a whole rationale behind this. It's like, look, kids are wild animals.
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You got to get them in line. Look at that. Look at that. Have no empathy at age three. Look at
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them. They're monsters. So we got to get them in line. We got to train them. And that starts in the
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family. And parents are doing this a lot, even if they don't know it. I see this in myself. We have two
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small kids. The urge to get obedience and compliance is strong because there's a lot of
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energy. It's hard to deal with some extreme emotions and desires that kids have. So it starts
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in the home. Don't do that. Stop that. Put that down. And here's an example. There's a friend of
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ours that was with our kids and older brother hits younger brother and takes something. And she says,
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don't do that. That's not nice. And takes it back and gives it to their kid. And you might
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look at that and say, well, that's great. That's great. You're teaching the kid not to
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do that. But really, you're not teaching the kid. You're trying to enforce a rule. And
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I think there's more skillful ways to help that situation that doesn't impose that nice
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training. But then they get to school and you got, depending on what age you're starting,
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but you got 10, 15, 20 kids per teacher in the room. You got to have compliance and order.
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It's the only way with a bunch of five-year-olds or six-year-olds in a room.
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So there's a strong sense of like, this is right. This is wrong. Be this way. Don't be that way.
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And there's a desire in adults to see kids be kind to each other. And we want that to happen. And I
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think we want it to happen too early. We don't understand the developmental stages of kids.
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They might just not have the empathy. So we try to make them do it. And you apologize for what
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you did there. And the kid just says, I'm sorry. And it means nothing. But we're trying to train
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them. And I think we need to nurture them more like plants than we do need to train them like a
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dog. And I think that training is happening all over the place. And as a result, you get people
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that are trained, trained, trained, trained from age zero to 16 or whatever age they start to maybe
00:21:17.120
18. And then we say, great. Now you're out in the world. Now go be assertive. Go after what you want
00:21:23.120
to handle rejection. Don't take no for an answer. And it's the complete opposite of what we've trained
00:21:29.160
them for. And then like, wait, why are you so passive? Why are you so compliant? Why are you so
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obedient? Well, that's what we trained them for. We're going to take a quick break for your words
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to the show. Okay. Well, maybe later on we could talk about if you're a parent, what you can do to
00:23:31.440
not train your kid for this type of niceness. But before we get there, let's talk about some of
00:23:36.680
if niceness isn't what we're aiming for and it comes with all these problems like anger,
00:23:41.300
resentment, passivity, et cetera, what are we aiming for? What is the opposite of nice? Because
00:23:46.540
I think most nice people will hear that like, well, the opposite of nice is just being a jerk
00:23:49.860
and an a-hole. But imagine that's not what it is. Right. And that's the question that people
00:23:54.960
sometimes say, should I just go total a-hole for like a month just to solve this problem? I'm like,
00:23:59.740
no, it could be an interesting experiment, but I don't think that's the best route. I think it's a
00:24:06.460
misunderstanding of what nice is, right? It's still thinking that nice is a caring person.
00:24:12.660
Really, the solution and the opposite of nice is to be more you, to be more bold, expressive,
00:24:21.000
authentic, direct, and assertive. That's nice. So you think of nice as like this false persona.
00:24:27.600
We're just talking about being more the real you. So for example, someone says, hey, can you do blah,
00:24:32.180
blah, blah? And you check in with yourself and you look at it and you're like, wow,
00:24:35.700
I have a lot going on in my life right now. To take that on feels like too much right now.
00:24:40.940
And you honor that inner, like you honor yourself and what you feel like you can handle or what you
00:24:47.600
want to handle. And then you say, listen, I can't do X. And that's being more assertive,
00:24:54.520
more direct. It's not being an a-hole. Here's the thing though. People that have been nice for a really
00:24:59.420
long time hear that and say, oh, I can't do that. That's, I'd be such a jerk. So the problem is if
00:25:05.120
we've been nice for too long, we're not calibrated right. Just basic assertiveness,
00:25:08.720
healthy boundaries, taking care of ourselves. We feel guilty at first doing it. We feel like
00:25:14.780
we're a bad person, but you're not. You just need to recalibrate to a healthier level of self-interest.
00:25:22.860
Yeah. That calibration analogy was really interesting for me because I've noticed that too. Whenever I
00:25:28.160
think about having to say no to someone, I'm like, I'm going to let this person down.
00:25:31.700
And in my mind, I'm like, oh my gosh, they're going to be devastated. And it's going to just
00:25:36.280
completely, they're just going to be so sad and upset that I have to say no. But like in reality,
00:25:42.820
it's like not, it's like, I think it's going to be a 10, but in reality, it's a four.
00:25:46.500
So like, how do you recalibrate yourself? So you realize that by setting boundaries,
00:25:52.520
by asserting yourself, by saying no, things aren't going to turn out as bad as you think they are.
00:25:56.660
That's a great question. And like any other form of fear, the way to overcome it is to face it and
00:26:04.840
see what actually happens. So when I work, you know, when I work with a lot of social anxiety
00:26:08.460
clients, if I talk to this person, they're going to hate me. It's going to go terrible. They're
00:26:13.020
going to not like this about me. And we can do all the inner work in the world to get them to have
00:26:18.580
higher self-esteem and feel ready for it. But at the end of the day, the thing that's going to
00:26:22.820
transform it the fastest is to go test that out. Talk to that person and see what actually happens.
00:26:28.280
And just like you said, when I say no, I think it's going to crush them. It's going to be a 10
00:26:31.580
out of 10, ruin their life. It turns out it's a four. And the only way for you to really get that
00:26:38.200
deep down in your nervous system, not just in your intellect, but in your body, so you can feel
00:26:43.780
more relaxed about saying no, is to do it. And to do it many times. Because the first time we do it,
00:26:49.980
we might be like, just overwhelmed and we feel bad and guilty. And then you do it again and again
00:26:56.140
and again. And again, if I talk about this in the book, I say that the three-step process,
00:26:59.680
if you want the 30,000 foot view on how to recalibrate and change ourselves,
00:27:02.980
first is to really get on a level, hey, I don't want to be this nice. This isn't about being a
00:27:08.300
good person. This is about fear. So I'm going to do something different. That's the first step is to
00:27:13.240
really get that and decide. The next step is to do the stuff that's uncomfortable. So someone says,
00:27:18.960
ask you a question, you do say no to them. You do ask for what you want. You do tell someone that
00:27:22.820
you're bothered by something. You're more direct. That's the second step. The third step is to work
00:27:28.380
through all the inner discomfort, which is probably going to be guilt and anxiety. Those are the two
00:27:33.100
biggest discomforts. I feel so guilty for saying that. I feel so anxious because I was more assertive.
00:27:39.700
Did I go too far? Was I a jerk? We deal with that anxiety. We calm ourselves. And over time,
00:27:47.340
we start to see, wow, the world's not falling apart. My relationships aren't disintegrating.
00:27:52.620
In fact, and this has happened for so many clients of mine, they start to see, wait a minute,
00:27:56.840
people actually are respecting me more. People are, rather than burning the bridge and losing
00:28:02.880
the relationship, they actually seem to be more accommodating with me now that I've been assertive
00:28:08.920
with them. And it's really a whole paradigm shift. It's kind of mind-blowing for people when they see it.
00:28:13.260
Yeah. I mean, I think that's what a lot of nice people don't realize or people who are having
00:28:16.860
this nice problem is that people respect individuals with autonomy and agency and who
00:28:22.980
are bold and know what they want. They respect that or healthy people respect that, I guess I should
00:28:27.780
say. There might be some unhealthy people that actually take pleasure in someone who is groveling
00:28:33.220
and passive. But most people want, especially for guys, women want a guy who knows what he wants in
00:28:38.680
life and goes after it. Absolutely. Yeah. Which is the opposite of nice.
00:28:43.560
Well, let's talk about some brass tacks things here that kind of help people kind of get through
00:28:48.780
those sticking points when they're first starting on this recalibration process. I know for a lot of
00:28:53.340
nice people, saying no just fills them with dread because they feel like they're going to let someone
00:28:58.900
down. They're going to upset them. So what are some things that people can do to get better at saying
00:29:06.420
no in a way that's maybe graceful? Because I think it's like a lot of people are feeling when they say
00:29:12.480
no, they're afraid they're going to be awkward about it. So any insights there?
00:29:17.140
Really, we want to let ourselves be beginners. So I want to look great doing some kind of dance. I
00:29:25.200
don't know, ballroom dancing. I actually don't really want to do that, but that's a great example.
00:29:30.400
I want to look smooth ballroom dancing. Maybe you got a vision of some movie you saw. I want to be that.
00:29:35.620
Okay, great. On your first dance lesson, you're probably not going to be that. And maybe it's
00:29:40.880
going to take you a while. And it's the same thing with saying no. And you really want to start to think
00:29:44.660
about all these things as just skills. And usually, if we've been nice for 10, 20, 30, 50 years,
00:29:49.980
whatever, we haven't built that skill. The muscles kind of atrophied and weak. So we got to build it up
00:29:56.440
and just give yourself permission to be a little clunky and a little messy. It's like, oh, what if it's
00:30:01.100
awkward? Okay, well, my first couple will be awkward. And then I'm going to learn some things.
00:30:05.420
And then I can do a few more. And then it'll be smoother and smoother and smoother. And I'll give
00:30:08.960
some specific tips too, though, so it can help accelerate that process. One is to, first and
00:30:15.880
foremost, give yourself complete permission to say no to things in life. Because as long as you have
00:30:21.500
this conflict inside, oh, I'm so bad for saying no, it's going to come across either as overly
00:30:28.760
apologetic because you think you're doing something super bad or kind of harsh and defensive. Like,
00:30:35.240
I have a right to say no. And so you're kind of harder in your voice. But when you're really okay
00:30:41.140
with it, you could be a lot more relaxed and loving about it. Oh, come on, you should stay an extra day
00:30:45.340
for this thing. Oh, you know, thank you for the offer. That sounds great. But I need to get back
00:30:50.880
to whatever. So I'm not going to be able to do that. And you're just very calm about it because
00:30:55.760
you know it's okay for you to say no. So that's honestly, that inner work and that inner permission
00:31:00.220
is the biggest tip. And then in terms of the nuts and bolts of what comes out of your mouth,
00:31:06.480
I recommend saying no early and often, early rather than later. So when someone invites you to do
00:31:13.000
something, if you know you're a no, don't say, oh yeah, totally. Yeah. Let me check my schedule and
00:31:18.060
get back to you. That's just you kicking the can down the road because you don't want to feel that
00:31:22.680
discomfort or you don't want to say it to their face. So you'll say it via text. And like, that's
00:31:26.920
an opportunity to step up. This is boldness training. This is courage training to be more real
00:31:31.960
and authentic. So they say, hey, can you come to this thing? You say, oh, actually, no, I have plans on
00:31:37.720
Saturday. I'm not going to make it. Or, oh, you know, that kind of thing doesn't seem
00:31:41.960
like my sort of activity, but I'd love to get lunch with you next week. So you say no,
00:31:47.420
you say it directly. The other thing is don't, don't apologize unless you've done something
00:31:54.500
out of your values. You hurt somebody or you yelled at someone, you know, I berated their
00:32:00.220
character. If someone invites you to do something and you say no, in my book, that's not apology worthy.
00:32:07.220
Because again, that shows that you think you're doing something wrong. Hey, can you come join me for
00:32:10.740
this thing? No, sorry. And then don't offer like a really long explanation. I'm so sorry. I would
00:32:17.340
love to be able to do it, but I got to get my cat from the groomers. I don't know. And instead just
00:32:24.720
you can use things like, I won't be able to make it or, oh, thanks for the invite or, oh,
00:32:30.120
unfortunately I'm not free that day. So things like unfortunately and thanks indicate like you care,
00:32:35.880
but they're not apologetic. So those are some of the basic tips that I would offer.
00:32:40.500
Yeah. I found whenever I I've offered explanations that gets you in a bind because people are like,
00:32:45.420
well, they'll resolve the, the, the explanation. Like, well, okay, just do this and then you can
00:32:50.000
do it. And you're like, ah, crap. Okay. That I'm, I'm in a pickle now. Cause he's right.
00:32:54.860
Yeah. And that's where there's these opportunities to just be a little more real with people.
00:32:58.820
And, and this is where there's this whole art to this, to be direct and assertive, but with, uh,
00:33:07.700
with care, with tact. And this is where you really see the difference between
00:33:10.720
niceness and real love, connection, compassion, and kindness and authenticity. So someone invites
00:33:16.180
you to go, Hey, come join me for this ball game. And you're like, oh, I, uh, I can't that Friday.
00:33:21.700
Cause I got such and such. And they're like, oh, well, Hey, you know what? It's a series. So
00:33:25.700
they're playing on Tuesday night. Should come out on Tuesday. And now you're like, oh God,
00:33:29.900
I have to make up an excuse for every night of the week. So better instead of that, they say,
00:33:34.920
Hey, come to this ball game on Saturday. Say, wow, that's a thank you. That's really cool. I know
00:33:39.900
it's like a series going on right now. Thank you for offering me that ticket. That's, that's really
00:33:43.300
cool. I want to tell you though, that personally, I'm not a big fan of baseball, so I don't think I
00:33:49.920
would really enjoy that. I'd rather do something else with you. You want to go for a, you want to go for a
00:33:54.840
hike next week instead. Now, because you've been more authentic, you didn't, you're not hiding
00:34:01.220
anything. And, and just, just to check in Brett, like if you heard that, does that seem like that
00:34:06.380
would crush someone? Does that seem offensive or harsh? No. Cause that person would find someone
00:34:10.540
else to go with probably. Right. And you're just, you're just telling them. And I do, you know,
00:34:15.160
I'm saying, Hey, thanks for the invite is acknowledging the other person for inviting you,
00:34:18.800
but there's no apology there. And it's, it's really about connection with that person,
00:34:22.600
but you're now that person knows and they're not going to offer the Tuesday one or the next one or
00:34:27.160
the next one or the next one. And they just, they, they know you better. And I talk about this in the
00:34:30.900
book. Like we have a choice. We can strive in life to be liked by everyone. That's the people
00:34:36.200
pleasing approval seeking, or we can strive to be known. And when you share, Hey, I'm not, I'm not
00:34:42.780
into baseball. Let's do something else. Now that person knows you better and they know not to invite
00:34:47.040
you to that anymore. It doesn't mean your friendship's over. It just means, Oh yeah,
00:34:51.120
Z's doesn't like baseball. So let's invite him to do something else. Let's get to that people
00:34:54.840
pleasing thing. Cause I think that's a, you know, sort of the heart of being nice. The reason why
00:34:58.580
people don't say no, the reason why people don't say what they want, like, what is the mindset shift
00:35:04.600
that has to happen? So you stop people pleasing all the time. That's a big one. Uh, so people
00:35:12.060
pleasing is also called approval seeking. It's basically each person that I interact with,
00:35:18.560
I want them to like me. And first and foremost, I want them to not have any negative thoughts,
00:35:24.500
feelings, or judgments about me whatsoever. Secondly, I maybe also, I want them to think
00:35:30.860
I'm really cool and be impressed by me. That's great too. But first and foremost, I want them to
00:35:34.500
not judge me or dislike me. And without knowing it, most people have that. Oh, sorry. I just got a
00:35:42.440
call coming in there. I should put that on. So, um, edit that out. Um, without knowing it,
00:35:48.860
most people have this subtle orientation to each person that they meet. I want them to like me.
00:35:54.740
And it might not be this intense kind of groveling. I need this energy, but just it's in there in the
00:35:59.820
background and we feel bad. We feel uncomfortable. We feel like something's going wrong. We, we wonder
00:36:07.280
why, you know, someone flips you off when you're driving and the most common reactions are to be
00:36:13.160
hurt. Why? I didn't do anything wrong or to get enraged back, which is just the flip side of the
00:36:19.240
hurt. So to shift this is the next person like me. I mean, the next person like me, that means I need
00:36:27.900
everyone to like me. That that's a, that's an exhausting quest. And what's missing is, well,
00:36:35.200
why don't I feel secure in myself? And to bring it back to, you know, child rearing and growing up,
00:36:43.980
this comes from a attachment, attachment theory, um, from John Bowlby is a psychologist that really
00:36:49.800
researched a lot of this, but we connect with our parents. We attach to our parents and they
00:36:53.980
attach to us. And ideally the parent is like, Hey, I love you. I'm generally patient with you and try to
00:37:00.260
spend some time with you and give you attention and be with you a lot as much as I can. And you
00:37:04.300
matter, you valuable and so forth. And then we get a secure attachment with that parent and we feel
00:37:11.780
like, Hey, I'm pretty worthwhile and I'm okay. And I, how'd I go into the world? Problems start to
00:37:16.660
occur though, when unfortunately that attachment maybe is not the best. Maybe our parent is really
00:37:21.000
busy a lot of the time. Maybe they get really angry at us. Maybe they like us if we do X and Y,
00:37:25.960
but as soon as we start doing, we get messy or we talk back or we're wild, they get really angry.
00:37:31.220
And, or they're just like in the case of my dad, my dad was just, um, very busy with work,
00:37:37.660
but also when he was at home, he was just kind of in his own world and in his own head and not
00:37:42.380
able to like really slow down and be with his kids and pay attention to them. And so with that comes
00:37:47.580
this sense of like, am I okay? And why doesn't, am I, am I okay? And they call it insecure attachment.
00:37:53.860
And so I think at the root of it, a lot of us have that kind of insecurity in our attachment.
00:37:59.840
You might be saying, well, how does this have to do with approval seeking? Well,
00:38:02.760
I don't have that strong attachment bond with anyone. So then I go to you and I'm like,
00:38:08.500
can I plug my hose in with you? Will you give me attachment? No. Okay. How about you? And we're
00:38:13.900
just trying to get it from every person that we meet. And the solution to this is not just a mindset
00:38:18.640
shift. It's like a heart shift. It's like a, we have to heal that inside of us that is insecure,
00:38:25.220
that is missing. And that's a, that's a process I could talk more about if you give you the top
00:38:29.460
level view, if you're interested, but we really got to basically learn how to unconditionally be
00:38:34.420
with and love ourselves and, and heal up those attachment issues so that we feel more relaxed
00:38:39.880
talking to other people. Well, so yeah, top level, like what does that look like? That process?
00:38:44.000
Sure. Basically it means that when we feel insecurity, inadequacy, pain of not enoughness,
00:38:52.740
needing, oh man, I'm so upset because they didn't like me. Instead of scrambling so much to get it out
00:38:58.180
there, we need to slow down and take time to like find that grasping, aching part of us. It's usually
00:39:07.140
in our chest, maybe in our stomach and our throat, like physically in our body and be with it and then
00:39:14.260
start to treat that like the parent we never had. So basically we give it attention. And I say it,
00:39:23.800
it's kind of like a part of us or feelings inside of us. We give that, so that part, let me give you a
00:39:28.420
more concrete example. I really want this woman to like me. You know, maybe we just met or we went on a
00:39:34.900
date and now, uh, she's not responding to my texts or it doesn't, I don't know, maybe she doesn't seem
00:39:39.960
interested in me for a second date. And I have this like overwhelming sense of anxiety and I messed it
00:39:46.500
up and I'm worthless and all this pain. And a lot of the time we might obsess on what was the text that
00:39:54.600
I sent her? How do I, how do I get her back? What's the, you know, you go online and look up some
00:39:59.220
pithy texts to winter back or whatever. And, uh, instead of all that, what I'm suggesting is you,
00:40:05.160
you literally stop what you're doing. Maybe go for a walk, um, sit down in your house or whatever
00:40:10.020
and turn off all TV and everything and just breathe and go inward and find that squeezing
00:40:15.800
pain right in your chest, in your stomach, somewhere else in your body. And it's, if it's strong, you'll,
00:40:19.700
you'll feel it. And you, and you just, um, relax and give that, imagine it's like a
00:40:26.760
10 year old kid or a five year old kid or a 12 year old kid. It doesn't matter whatever age.
00:40:31.700
It was just like, Hey, I want this person to like me. And you just meet it with empathy,
00:40:38.440
patience, and love. Yeah, of course you, you want, you really want her to like you. You want,
00:40:43.920
it hurts that she's not responding to you. I know you want control. You wish you could get it,
00:40:49.000
but you can't. And it's not so much the words I'm using words here, but it's really an attitude
00:40:53.320
and energy towards yourself. And here's the biggest thing I've found. It's actually most
00:40:58.140
important, more than the words, more than the energy. It's the attention. It's giving that part
00:41:02.980
attention just like, cause it's that kid inside of us that didn't get that attention. And I found
00:41:07.680
that for, to really heal this stuff, people need to do this on a daily basis, you know, not that long,
00:41:14.320
maybe 15, 20 minutes a day. But you know, as you walk, as you run, do your exercise, you just,
00:41:19.800
or just sitting in your house, you just focus in on it. And over time, it's not like a magic light
00:41:25.500
switch, but over time, over a couple of weeks or months, people really heal it in a deep way and
00:41:31.020
start to feel a lot more secure. And all of a sudden, something like that happens. And they're
00:41:36.080
like, wow, I don't feel so stressed out about it as I used to. That sounds a lot like a loving
00:41:42.360
kindness meditation or self-compassion meditation. I think I've heard it described. So yeah, and you can
00:41:46.780
find those online if you want, if you're looking for a guided meditation, find some self-compassion
00:41:50.920
meditation. And again, like once you have that secure attachment, I imagine that resolves a lot.
00:41:55.880
I mean, like you feel more secure about being rejected because you're like, well, I'm okay,
00:42:00.600
right? Cause I'm, I'm good with myself. You feel okay by saying no, because you, you have that,
00:42:05.540
that foundation within yourself. So maybe that, that's one of the key, like you said, like it's like
00:42:10.220
heart change can go a long way in clearing up a lot of this stuff. Absolutely. Well, let's talk
00:42:17.000
about boundaries. What, what do you mean by boundaries and why do nice people have such a
00:42:21.420
hard time establishing or keeping them? Sure. Well, boundaries are simply knowing what you want
00:42:29.240
or don't want in a situation, your preferences, if you will. And the example I use in the book is
00:42:34.700
you're sitting in your yard, you share a backyard and there's a fence between you and your neighbor.
00:42:39.240
And there's a little gate there or something. And your neighbor comes over and, uh, opens the gate
00:42:45.560
to your yard and you're just sitting in your backyard. Does that bother you? I don't know.
00:42:51.080
Maybe not. And then they walk into your yard and they go to your, you have a peach tree in your yard
00:42:55.320
and they walk over and there's some fresh peaches growing on there and they grab a peach and they
00:42:58.580
start to eat it. Does that bother you? Maybe, maybe not. Then they start to walk over to talk to you
00:43:04.480
and they step on your flowers. Does that bother you? And it's a little interesting thought
00:43:10.480
experiment because this is a sign of, of boundaries. Like, do you want them to enter your yard? Do you
00:43:14.460
want them to eat your fruit? Do you want them to walk in your flowers? And we want to know first and
00:43:17.940
foremost, what do I, what do I, what's right for me? What do I want or not want? And so in that
00:43:22.520
instance, people can usually imagine like, well, maybe I wouldn't mind them coming into my yard.
00:43:26.120
We like to talk now and then, but wait a minute, eat my fruit, step on my flowers.
00:43:31.540
And so those are signs of your boundaries. So you're talking to someone and, um, you know,
00:43:37.120
they're sharing about their lives and that's interesting for you. Great. But all of a sudden
00:43:40.480
they just start going on and on and on and on. And there's no pauses in the conversation and there's
00:43:45.360
no focus on you at all. And you start to feel like, I'm not really enjoying this. That's like
00:43:52.000
someone stepping on your flowers. That's a sign. That's a signal. And so the, the most important
00:43:57.720
part of being able to have boundaries is to know what they are and you know what they are
00:44:02.220
by paying attention to that inner, Ooh, I like this or I don't like this. And we, we know if
00:44:09.940
we tune in now we can have some nice person training on top that says, don't assert your
00:44:15.780
boundaries. People are, you know, if you tell that guy not to eat your peach, he's going
00:44:18.800
to yell at you or don't change the subject because you're going to crush that person's
00:44:24.460
feelings. You know, so we can have some nice stories that prevent us, but at the, at the
00:44:28.740
core level, it's just knowing and being tuned in to say, what do I want or not want in this
00:44:34.600
And in the end, a lot of people think that they don't, they don't have boundaries. It's
00:44:37.800
going to make people like them. But as we've been talking about, if you don't have boundaries,
00:44:42.580
like people in a weird way don't like respect you less and they like you less and it prevents
00:44:48.360
you for having that really like genuine relationship with that person.
00:44:51.860
Really? And it's, you might get quote, get people to like you, but not the people that
00:44:55.960
you want. You get, you're going to get people that are, that have their own issues with
00:44:59.400
boundaries. And probably if you're the one with no boundaries, you get someone who is
00:45:02.360
used to stomping all over the place in other people's yards. So someone who's more controlling
00:45:06.120
or that's what you're going to get. And when you establish this and have those boundaries,
00:45:12.640
you, you do have relationships, but with people who also respect boundaries and have
00:45:17.780
healthier boundaries, and it leads to a much better relationship.
00:45:24.520
So let's say you are a parent. Let's say you're, you're a parent and you're like a recovering
00:45:29.940
nice addict, right? And you're realizing that you're, you've got this issue and you're working
00:45:33.820
through it. Like how, what can you do to ensure like you don't pass this on to your kid
00:45:38.560
while simultaneously teaching them how to not be a nice person, but a good person.
00:45:43.880
Um, and whatever that means. So, yeah, well, that's a great question to ask is what does
00:45:49.420
that mean to me? Because when we say, I mean, good and bad are these blanket, uh, sort of
00:45:57.060
evaluations. That's a good person or a bad person. What does that mean? Does that, so really what we
00:46:02.020
want to look at is what are my values? What's important to me in life? Is health important to
00:46:06.820
me? Is being compassionate important to me? Is giving to people in need important to me? Is taking
00:46:13.100
care of the earth important to me? Like, what are the values that I have that I want to impart on my
00:46:19.180
children? And if you're a parent and you've never sat down and done that on paper or gone on a long
00:46:23.400
drive and really thought about it and talked about it with your spouse or whoever you're raising your
00:46:27.780
kids with, um, I highly recommend you do that. And that's a fundamental thing that's overlooked and
00:46:34.840
it's, it's good for you to do for yourself too. You know, what, what are my values? What's
00:46:38.440
important to me in life? Then how do I want to impart that on my kids? Well, the, the first way
00:46:44.540
that kids learn from their parents is modeling. The second dumb most common way that kids learn from
00:46:51.800
their parents is modeling. And the third way is also modeling. Like your kids are going to learn
00:46:56.040
way, way, way, way, way more from watching you and seeing how you operate in the world with other
00:47:01.140
people, with your, in your, within your family and with them. They're going to observe all that and
00:47:07.380
they're going to replicate a lot of that. So you value health, but you smoke. It's not going to,
00:47:15.020
the messages and it doesn't matter what you tell your kids. And same thing. If you value kindness
00:47:18.800
and respect and you want your kids to be kind and to respect people, and then you treat them in a
00:47:24.100
disrespectful way. Hey, stop that. You put that down. And that's how you're talking to your kids.
00:47:30.140
It doesn't matter what you tell them to do later on. What you're modeling for them is this is how you
00:47:35.900
talk to people, you boss them around, you bark orders at them. And sure enough, that's what
00:47:39.940
you're going to get back. And kids are a great mirror for that. So I think that's the second
00:47:43.800
step is to, is first to get clear on your values, then to do the inner work to really be able to live
00:47:50.380
by your values. And that ain't easy because kids are demanding. I absolutely will tell you that. So
00:47:56.120
that's the, one of the core challenges. That's the growth opportunity in parenting is to be able to
00:48:02.760
mature faster with those kids. And then the last part I'd say is if you want them to be,
00:48:09.120
you know, the biggest thing that people want is their kids to be caring about other people,
00:48:12.640
kind, you know, it's hard to watch your kid, like, I don't know, knock some other kid over
00:48:16.920
or something like that. And so parents want to get in there and stop that behavior right away.
00:48:22.960
So don't you ever do that again. And then they also feel a little embarrassed. Oh man,
00:48:27.260
people saw my kid do that. I got to publicly chastise my kid, even though it's not going to
00:48:34.300
probably do anything, but just to show other parents that I'm doing something here. And I
00:48:39.400
really think it's worth reexamining all that and saying, well, how do kids actually grow? And
00:48:44.420
one thing that is different is in attachment-based parenting, you realize that the attachment and
00:48:50.760
having a really secure, strong, healthy attachment with that kid is going to grow them into a
00:48:56.080
thoughtful, caring, self-directed, you know, a member of society. And that emerges over time
00:49:04.380
like a plant. So you don't need to like whack it every time it goes out of line. You just keep
00:49:09.180
working with it and have that secure attachment, treat them with respect, have, and this is a hard
00:49:15.540
one. Can I develop unconditional love? What does that even look like? Because man, it's hard not to
00:49:22.840
withdraw love when they do something annoying, but can I find it in myself to still lovingly tell
00:49:28.360
them no and not exasperatedly telling them no? I mean, these are ongoing challenges for me and I
00:49:34.700
think for all parents, but I think it's a fight worth fighting and the growth worth doing because
00:49:39.300
ultimately, you know, you have a kid who is kind and caring, but is also more self-directed and
00:49:46.660
assertive and doesn't have to deprogram all this nice stuff that all of us do.
00:49:50.400
Yeah. I mean, it sounds like having kids can help a nice person. Like it gives you like the
00:49:55.000
motivation to take care of yourself first because you realize how much your kids are watching you
00:50:01.100
and they're going to model your behaviors. Like it's kind of a turbo boost to getting out of your
00:50:07.060
Well, Laziz, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book and the
00:50:11.040
rest of your work? Sure. I'd say the best place is on my website, which is socialconfidencecenter.com.
00:50:18.080
That's socialconfidencecenter.com. And there's information about all my books there,
00:50:23.480
as well as an ebook that people can get for free to get started right away and live events and
00:50:30.140
YouTube stuff. And just, it's a great place if any of this intrigues you and you wanted to go further.
00:50:36.780
Fantastic. Well, Dr. Aziz, thanks so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.
00:50:41.040
My guest today was Dr. Aziz Ghazipura. He's the author of the book, Not Nice. It's available
00:50:44.740
on amazon.com. You can also find out more information about his work at
00:50:47.860
socialconfidencecenter.com. Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash not nice.
00:50:53.480
Where you can find links to resources, where you can delve deeper into this topic.
00:50:56.080
Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,
00:51:12.320
make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And if you enjoy the show,
00:51:16.120
got something out of it, I'd appreciate it if you take one minute to give us a review on iTunes or
00:51:19.740
Stitcher. It helps out a lot. As always, thank you for your continued support. And until next time,