The Art of Manliness - #407： How to Overcome Nice Guy Syndrome

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00:01:23.500 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. We've been told

00:01:29.720 since we were little kids to be nice. But what if being nice isn't really that good and it's making

00:01:34.520 you and those around you absolutely miserable? That's the provocative argument my guest today

00:01:38.620 makes. His name is Dr. Aziz Ghazipura. He's a psychologist and the founder of the Social

00:01:42.440 Confidence Center. And in his latest book, Not Nice, he makes the case that being nice is holding a lot of

00:01:47.860 men back in their lives. We begin the show by talking about what most people think nice means,

00:01:52.200 but how it usually plays out in reality. And then Dr. Aziz digs into the issues that pop up over and

00:01:57.580 over again in the lives of people pleasers like anxiety, depression, anger, and resentment. We

00:02:02.760 then discuss what the opposite of nice is. And no, it's not being a complete jerk. He then shares 0.99

00:02:06.740 specific tactics that chronically nice can start using today to be more assertive, like saying no

00:02:10.680 without feeling guilty, getting over feeling responsible for everyone's feelings, and stating your

00:02:15.120 preferences. If you're a chronic nice guy, this episode is for you. After the show's over, check out the

00:02:19.600 show notes at aom.is slash not nice. Aziz Ghazipura, welcome to the show.

00:02:34.280 Thanks. Thanks for having me, Brad. I'm excited about this.

00:02:36.200 So you are a psychologist. You do counseling with individuals and you wrote a book that has an

00:02:41.980 intriguing title, not nice. Because the way you frame the issue in the book is that niceness

00:02:47.920 is a problem for a lot of people. So before we get into why niceness, being nice is a problem,

00:02:55.280 what do you mean by being nice? What do most people think it means to be nice, but how does

00:02:59.420 that actually play out in reality? You know, that's a great question. And in my experience working with a

00:03:05.640 lot of clients, but also for my own life, I started to see a pattern, which was that the

00:03:11.500 people that were the nicest also had the most anxiety, the most social anxiety, the most problems

00:03:17.980 with self-esteem. And I started to look at the whole concept a little differently. I said, maybe

00:03:22.540 being nice is not so great. And so I started to see it more and more and more, started to talk about

00:03:28.260 it with clients, and then came up with this idea of like, I need to put this all in a book. And I was

00:03:31.920 starting to write the book. And then I had this strange thought. I was like, wait a minute, maybe

00:03:35.960 not everyone is against nice. Maybe nice is good for most people. So I was sitting and having some

00:03:40.420 dinner with some friends. And I said, when you guys hear the word nice, like so-and-so is nice,

00:03:45.480 would you say that's a positive quality or negative quality? And you know what I found, Brad? It was

00:03:50.460 actually very mixed. Some people said, oh, that sounds like they're a really good person. And some

00:03:54.540 people said, oh, no, they don't have, you know, they're people-pleasing or whatever. So I realized

00:03:58.340 first things first, when I was writing this book, I had to clarify what I mean by

00:04:01.920 nice. Because even someone listening right now might think, nice, that's good. That's how you

00:04:06.600 want to be. That means you're a good human. And what I mean by nice is actually a very specific

00:04:11.320 pattern that is rooted in fear. And at its core, there is an inability to tolerate upset in others.

00:04:22.460 I don't want to make you upset. I don't want to do anything that's going to bother you, hurt you,

00:04:26.380 burden you, irritate you. And so I'm going to limit myself. I'm going to conform to what I think you

00:04:33.260 want so that everything is smooth. And that's really what's behind most nice behavior when you

00:04:39.000 look at it. And it's very different from being kind, generous, loving, compassionate, and these

00:04:44.420 other high virtues that we actually want to be in life.

00:04:46.800 So I mean, when people think they're being nice, they're thinking, I'm putting others first,

00:04:50.220 but they're not really putting others first for the person. They're doing it for themselves.

00:04:54.180 Because it soothes that anxiety about being rejected or upsetting people. It's all about

00:04:59.800 them. Absolutely right. And this is a hard one for people to, it's a little bit of a bitter pill to

00:05:04.660 swallow, but it is liberating to see that. I'm doing that because I can't tolerate you being upset with

00:05:11.100 me. I'm doing this out of fear. And I mean, so what are some, like you said, some of the ways that

00:05:16.820 people, niceness manifests itself in a negative way. Is it just a matter of like not being able to say no,

00:05:22.340 flow, just going with the flow, et cetera? I mean, what are some manifestations of this sort of bad

00:05:27.320 niceness?

00:05:28.380 Sure. It's really all of what you're saying and more. So if I can't do anything that's going to

00:05:35.560 make waves, make friction, then I'm going to have to go with the flow no matter what. I'm not going to

00:05:41.000 be able to say no to you because that might upset you. I also can't ask for what I want directly

00:05:46.340 because of what if that's going to bother you? Well, what if you feel burdened by my asking?

00:05:52.180 I'm certainly not going to disagree with you, have conflict with you. I'm not going to point

00:05:56.920 out something that bothers me that you did or that's not working. I'm going to keep that all

00:06:00.860 inside. I don't want to make waves. I don't want to upset you. So I'm going to hold more and more

00:06:05.080 inside. So there's a lot of holding back, restriction, silencing yourself. And then with that,

00:06:10.660 we do a lot of mental games to justify why we're doing that. Oh, now's not the time. Oh,

00:06:15.960 I should get more. I should just let it go. I should be more relaxed. This shouldn't bother

00:06:20.100 me so much. And so we keep this lid on. And so there's a lot of lack of expression of what's

00:06:25.020 bothering us. And it's these big things that I'm talking about, not saying no, but it's really

00:06:31.220 moment to moment. It's in that conversation. Do I change the subject? If someone says, oh,

00:06:38.400 I think such and such, do I just say, oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Or do I say, huh? You think that

00:06:43.620 really? Oh, I see it differently. Like that seems very minor, but it infuses everything.

00:06:49.480 And so really it's this whole way of approaching life that we steer more and more towards not being

00:06:55.040 real and just being what we think is going to please others. And besides the pleasing others,

00:07:01.460 right? It's what's being nice is all about. The other thing you talk about in your book is that

00:07:05.460 when people are nice, quote unquote, they do so with this idea that, well, if I'm nice,

00:07:12.200 then people will return the favor to me. Like they'll give me what I want, but the nice person,

00:07:18.180 because they're nice, they don't say what they want. And so they expect everyone just to know

00:07:22.740 what they want, but because no one knows what they want, they don't get what they want. So that

00:07:26.240 causes the nice person to get angry. It's like this weird symbiosis, like what's it? Yeah.

00:07:32.100 Non-virtuous cycle that happens. Sure. Yeah. We get stuck in it. And then there's a lot of

00:07:36.120 resentment that can build up from that. And again, stories in the nice person's head that's like,

00:07:43.000 I shouldn't have to ask for what I want. If they really loved me, they would just know.

00:07:47.740 And that's another non-virtuous cycle because the person doesn't know, but they might love you very

00:07:52.200 much or care about you. They just don't know because there's a lack of assertiveness there.

00:07:57.060 There's a fear about asking for what we want. And so we avoid it and demand that they know.

00:08:02.500 And it just, at the end of the day, it's not about, it doesn't make you a bad person if you're

00:08:06.320 doing this. It just is not very effective. And that's my goal is for people to have more effective,

00:08:11.460 where they can really have a better relationship, really connect more and love more, whether it's

00:08:16.180 for work or personal life, just have better relationships. In your counseling, particularly

00:08:20.960 the men, how does niceness, the negatives of being nice, play out in men? And how's that

00:08:27.220 different from women? So in both men and women, niceness leads to a lot of passivity. 0.85

00:08:33.420 And one of the major problems that specifically for men that it manifests as is it severely can

00:08:39.500 limit their dating relationships and their love life. They can be so passive, they might not even

00:08:44.780 initiate interactions. Or if they do initiate an interaction with someone they're attracted to,

00:08:49.000 out of that niceness, they don't want to display or show any attraction, any intent. Like I'm

00:08:56.300 interested in you to date or to be with you. So they'll be more platonic and friendly and just

00:09:01.400 nice. And the result is they won't really have that much success in their dating life.

00:09:08.720 And this is where you get ideas of like nice guys finish last and, you know, oh, women love 0.99

00:09:12.820 assholes and all these stories. And it's not, I mean, that's a whole other topic. But what's really 0.97

00:09:18.000 missing is this clear display of like, I'm into you. And yeah, let's, let's, let's see what's there

00:09:25.080 because they're kind of hiding it all. So it really severely limits dating and relationships.

00:09:29.320 Work is another big area. And what happens is they tend to be more passive in meetings.

00:09:33.940 Don't rise to leadership positions. A very common pattern with someone who's too nice

00:09:37.660 is they're, they're very good. They're very technically skilled at their job.

00:09:42.040 There's a lot of potential to accelerate in their career, but they don't because of these

00:09:47.320 issues that we're talking about. And of course, social life, and they still might have friends.

00:09:51.740 That doesn't mean they're like, you know, totally lonely and restricted, but it's just the quality

00:09:55.300 of the friendships might not be what they want. They might not be as real or authentic with people

00:10:00.360 in their lives. And as a result, there can be this sense of loneliness. And that's what I really

00:10:05.020 experienced. I mean, I had people that loved me in my life, friends, parents, even as I got more

00:10:10.560 boldness and confidence, women and relationships, but I was still doing so much niceness that I

00:10:16.620 didn't really feel that love because I was just putting up this front. So they were loving the

00:10:22.740 front, but deep down, I wasn't actually feeling that sense of I'm loved for who I am. So along with

00:10:28.200 this, there can be a sense of loneliness. Well, yeah, let's talk about that. I mean, you in the book

00:10:32.340 describe in vivid detail about your, like your recovering nice guy. I mean, what, what was that

00:10:38.920 like for you? And at what point did you discover, like this was getting in the way of you progressing

00:10:43.880 in life? That's a great question. I'd say there was probably two stages. The first stage was, I

00:10:48.840 don't even know it was niceness. I was just so much social anxiety, self-loathing, low self-esteem,

00:10:54.540 and it reached a breaking point. It's like, I have to do something. And then I started to look up

00:10:58.820 confidence and dating advice and, and really was desperate enough to face my fear and actually apply

00:11:05.080 what I was reading and studying. And in that stage, I was more bold. I became more assertive

00:11:11.720 and outgoing in some ways to be able to create dating relationships, even socially. And that

00:11:17.120 worked to a degree, but that, what that didn't resolve was the niceness. So I'd kind of be a

00:11:22.080 little more bold, but my general disposition was still very nice. And even if I did start to date

00:11:27.060 after the first date, or maybe even the first couple of days and we'd sleep together,

00:11:31.260 then I'd flip into super nice guy. Um, and one of the biggest pain points for the nice person

00:11:40.380 is guilt. And it comes from what I call over responsibility in the book. We take way too

00:11:47.040 much responsibility for other people's feelings and nowhere did I do this more than with dating

00:11:52.860 relationships. So whatever, whatever I do, I better not create the slightest feeling of discomfort

00:12:00.120 in her. Whether she wants to do X and I don't want to do X. I want to do Y. Well, I better just

00:12:05.920 do X because I don't want to disappoint her. She wants to hang on a certain day. I better clear my

00:12:09.900 schedule. As I say it, it just sounds so extreme, but it was. And so even though I was outwardly a

00:12:16.540 bit more bold and confident, this niceness was really plaguing me and it prevented me from actually

00:12:20.660 being able to have a lasting long-term relationship because I had no boundaries.

00:12:25.180 Yeah. So why do you think the, the over-responsibility got in the way of a lasting

00:12:30.580 relationship? Cause I mean, on the, on people would hear like, Oh wow, someone would want to

00:12:34.140 stay with you if they're, if you're catering to their needs, but why isn't that the case?

00:12:40.180 They might want to stay with me, but I don't want to stay with them. Right. Because the relationship

00:12:44.160 starts to become all about the other person. It starts to become a cage and that's how I'd feel.

00:12:48.740 I, I would be, I'd want to be this super great guy, the man of her dreams. And I'd play that role

00:12:55.940 for as long as I could sustain it, which was usually about three to five weeks.

00:13:01.680 And just imagine that you can never say no, you can never really disagree. You can never,

00:13:07.720 um, you know, just be you. And how long can you hold that out? And for me, it was about a month.

00:13:15.300 And so it doesn't really work because it's, it's not a real relationship. It's a pseudo

00:13:20.680 relationship. It's a fear-based, right? It's like, I have to be this way so that you'll stay with me.

00:13:25.980 And if you, if I was just me, then that wouldn't work for you. That's the story anyway. And so that's

00:13:32.740 why it didn't work. Now here's the thing though. Some, for some people it does, uh, quote work in the

00:13:38.540 sense that they stay in the relationship because me, I'd worked on my dating confidence and skill enough

00:13:43.340 to be able to know that, that I could go out there and meet someone else.

00:13:48.600 And a lot of nice guys haven't developed that ability or skill. So they're like, well, this is,

00:13:54.720 this is the best I'm going to get. This is the only attention I'm going to get. So they'll stay in

00:13:58.920 that. And that's a common pattern. I've talked to men, clients, or just people that, you know,

00:14:02.720 watch my channel, other things who have stayed in relationships for months or even years

00:14:08.940 longer than they actually want to, because they don't think there's any other options out there

00:14:15.280 for them. And they're just stuck in that nice relationship. Plus, oh my God, it would break

00:14:19.560 her heart. I'd be at the worst guy in the world. If I were to leave her, she couldn't handle it,

00:14:23.200 uh, over responsibility, you know, all over the place here. And so they're stuck and they're in

00:14:28.800 that relationship for, for years. And I imagine like a lot of things with the niceness problem is

00:14:34.540 that it builds resentment. Like you feel trapped. You feel like you have no, uh, freedom that you

00:14:40.500 have no say. And that just like the resentment, I think is like the kind of recurring theme I saw

00:14:45.140 throughout the book that this sort of builds up and builds up and, and guys who are nice.

00:14:49.800 It does. And here's the worst part about it though. Like a nice person can't be angry.

00:14:56.360 That's not nice. That's one of the first rules of nice training from our parents, right? Don't be

00:15:01.620 angry to be nice. And so, but what is, but yet, as you pointed out, there's all this resentment

00:15:06.540 building. So what happens? The resentment has to be pushed down, suppressed and go unconscious a lot

00:15:11.840 of the time. And that doesn't mean problem solved. That means it's growing in there. We don't know

00:15:17.840 what's, it's like mold growing in the yogurt with the lid on the container and it's building. And then

00:15:22.720 it comes out in all kinds of ways, depression, um, anxiety, panic attacks, panic attacks is when I

00:15:28.540 had physical problems, all kinds of physical pain and injury, stomach problems, back problems, neck

00:15:33.840 problems, uh, foot problems, whatever, any part of your body can be affected, migraines. So we have

00:15:39.440 all this stuff going on, all this resentment and niceness, and we can just be totally unaware and think

00:15:45.100 that we're just trying to be a good person in life. Yeah. And so you said you, you, that resentment

00:15:49.740 builds up, you're getting angry. You can't express it because that's not what nice people do. One of the

00:15:54.280 ways it manifests itself, that's really annoying is a passive aggressiveness, right? Where you just

00:16:00.680 sort of like, you know, you kind of get back at the person, but you're not, you do it like in a

00:16:05.140 indirect way. Sure. Yeah. I mean, and a lot of the time people aren't even aware that they're doing it

00:16:10.140 again, because to, to be aware, like, Oh, I'm, I'm angry at you. And now I'm going to display that

00:16:16.560 in a passive aggressive way that takes a lot of self-awareness. And it also requires that you

00:16:22.060 acknowledge that you're really angry at them. And again, for the nice person, that's hard to do.

00:16:26.280 We might not say that we are thinking, we might not even not show it to others, but even to ourselves,

00:16:30.460 we might not acknowledge it. And so a lot of this passive aggressive stuff is happening

00:16:33.820 out of our awareness. It's just, it's subtle things like the person texts you

00:16:39.160 or calls or whatever. And instead of texting back, you're like, you look at your phone, you're like,

00:16:43.960 I'll get to them later. Just like some aversion towards that person. You know, we just kind of

00:16:49.160 distance a little, we push back a little bit, and we don't directly address what's going on

00:16:55.220 to resume and get closer to that person. Right. Yeah. Like at work, it could be like,

00:16:59.920 if you're resentful towards your boss, you, if they ask you to do something, you're like, Oh,

00:17:03.820 I forgot, you know, and that, that can get you in trouble though. Sure. Oh yeah. I mean,

00:17:08.540 it doesn't work. Passive aggression is not a very good long-term strategy for relationships at work

00:17:13.940 or life, but it's, it really is the best that that person can do at that moment in time,

00:17:20.920 because in their mind to be assertive and to say to their boss, okay, this, I, you know,

00:17:28.460 I don't understand why you want me to do X doesn't seem the rationale doesn't make sense to me. Can you

00:17:33.860 explain why I need to do X? Cause it seems like a lot of work that doesn't seem to bear fruit,

00:17:38.140 right? That would be a thing that someone who's assertive might say to their boss to get

00:17:41.340 clarity on why they're doing the project. The nice person might be terrified at the idea of doing

00:17:46.720 that. So their only option is to say yes. And I talk about this in the book. There's a formula when

00:17:53.860 we say yes, but we, we feel like we have to say yes, but we really want to say no inside. We're

00:18:00.020 going to feel resentful. And it's just a human animal. And so when that occurs, they got resentment.

00:18:05.560 Now what do I do with it? I don't know. Let me just tell my boss. I forgot. Oh yeah. I just

00:18:09.320 didn't get around to that task. I don't know what happened. I don't think I got the email.

00:18:12.620 Right. Or you might take that resentment. You realize you can't take it out on your boss or

00:18:17.620 be assertive with your boss, but you take it out on your family, your kids, your wife, et cetera.

00:18:23.140 Because you know, it's easier, right? Cause they're, they're close to you.

00:18:26.860 Sure. Yeah. It's less threatening there. That's called a displacement where we take our anger.

00:18:31.820 Can't put it at the source, which is scary. So I'll direct it towards someone who's

00:18:37.180 less threatening to me in some way.

00:18:39.100 So where you mentioned our parents, we learn how to be nice because we're told that, but

00:18:43.960 where else do we learn how to, this whole idea of being nice and not asserting ourselves and

00:18:49.420 going with the flow and not having boundaries. Where else do we learn this?

00:18:52.380 You know, it's pretty built into the socialization of people, especially in United States and other,

00:19:00.760 other Western countries as well, where it starts in the family, but then it continues on with school.

00:19:06.460 So, but basically our goal in a lot of ways is in society is to create obedience in children.

00:19:14.240 And there's sort of a whole rationale behind this. It's like, look, kids are wild animals.

00:19:18.140 You got to get them in line. Look at that. Look at that. Have no empathy at age three. Look at

00:19:21.580 them. They're monsters. So we got to get them in line. We got to train them. And that starts in the 1.00

00:19:26.360 family. And parents are doing this a lot, even if they don't know it. I see this in myself. We have two

00:19:32.220 small kids. The urge to get obedience and compliance is strong because there's a lot of

00:19:37.520 energy. It's hard to deal with some extreme emotions and desires that kids have. So it starts

00:19:43.120 in the home. Don't do that. Stop that. Put that down. And here's an example. There's a friend of

00:19:49.900 ours that was with our kids and older brother hits younger brother and takes something. And she says,

00:19:56.960 don't do that. That's not nice. And takes it back and gives it to their kid. And you might

00:20:02.180 look at that and say, well, that's great. That's great. You're teaching the kid not to

00:20:05.580 do that. But really, you're not teaching the kid. You're trying to enforce a rule. And

00:20:10.460 I think there's more skillful ways to help that situation that doesn't impose that nice

00:20:15.680 training. But then they get to school and you got, depending on what age you're starting,

00:20:20.440 but you got 10, 15, 20 kids per teacher in the room. You got to have compliance and order.

00:20:26.220 It's the only way with a bunch of five-year-olds or six-year-olds in a room.

00:20:29.840 So there's a strong sense of like, this is right. This is wrong. Be this way. Don't be that way.

00:20:35.180 And there's a desire in adults to see kids be kind to each other. And we want that to happen. And I

00:20:45.340 think we want it to happen too early. We don't understand the developmental stages of kids.

00:20:49.880 They might just not have the empathy. So we try to make them do it. And you apologize for what

00:20:54.600 you did there. And the kid just says, I'm sorry. And it means nothing. But we're trying to train

00:21:01.920 them. And I think we need to nurture them more like plants than we do need to train them like a

00:21:06.920 dog. And I think that training is happening all over the place. And as a result, you get people

00:21:11.040 that are trained, trained, trained, trained from age zero to 16 or whatever age they start to maybe

00:21:17.120 18. And then we say, great. Now you're out in the world. Now go be assertive. Go after what you want

00:21:23.120 to handle rejection. Don't take no for an answer. And it's the complete opposite of what we've trained

00:21:29.160 them for. And then like, wait, why are you so passive? Why are you so compliant? Why are you so

00:21:33.880 obedient? Well, that's what we trained them for. We're going to take a quick break for your words

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00:23:26.860 to the show. Okay. Well, maybe later on we could talk about if you're a parent, what you can do to

00:23:31.440 not train your kid for this type of niceness. But before we get there, let's talk about some of

00:23:36.680 if niceness isn't what we're aiming for and it comes with all these problems like anger,

00:23:41.300 resentment, passivity, et cetera, what are we aiming for? What is the opposite of nice? Because

00:23:46.540 I think most nice people will hear that like, well, the opposite of nice is just being a jerk 1.00

00:23:49.860 and an a-hole. But imagine that's not what it is. Right. And that's the question that people 0.99

00:23:54.960 sometimes say, should I just go total a-hole for like a month just to solve this problem? I'm like,

00:23:59.740 no, it could be an interesting experiment, but I don't think that's the best route. I think it's a

00:24:06.460 misunderstanding of what nice is, right? It's still thinking that nice is a caring person.

00:24:12.660 Really, the solution and the opposite of nice is to be more you, to be more bold, expressive,

00:24:21.000 authentic, direct, and assertive. That's nice. So you think of nice as like this false persona.

00:24:27.600 We're just talking about being more the real you. So for example, someone says, hey, can you do blah,

00:24:32.180 blah, blah? And you check in with yourself and you look at it and you're like, wow,

00:24:35.700 I have a lot going on in my life right now. To take that on feels like too much right now.

00:24:40.940 And you honor that inner, like you honor yourself and what you feel like you can handle or what you

00:24:47.600 want to handle. And then you say, listen, I can't do X. And that's being more assertive,

00:24:54.520 more direct. It's not being an a-hole. Here's the thing though. People that have been nice for a really

00:24:59.420 long time hear that and say, oh, I can't do that. That's, I'd be such a jerk. So the problem is if 1.00

00:25:05.120 we've been nice for too long, we're not calibrated right. Just basic assertiveness,

00:25:08.720 healthy boundaries, taking care of ourselves. We feel guilty at first doing it. We feel like

00:25:14.780 we're a bad person, but you're not. You just need to recalibrate to a healthier level of self-interest.

00:25:22.860 Yeah. That calibration analogy was really interesting for me because I've noticed that too. Whenever I

00:25:28.160 think about having to say no to someone, I'm like, I'm going to let this person down.

00:25:31.700 And in my mind, I'm like, oh my gosh, they're going to be devastated. And it's going to just

00:25:36.280 completely, they're just going to be so sad and upset that I have to say no. But like in reality,

00:25:42.820 it's like not, it's like, I think it's going to be a 10, but in reality, it's a four.

00:25:46.500 So like, how do you recalibrate yourself? So you realize that by setting boundaries,

00:25:52.520 by asserting yourself, by saying no, things aren't going to turn out as bad as you think they are.

00:25:56.660 That's a great question. And like any other form of fear, the way to overcome it is to face it and

00:26:04.840 see what actually happens. So when I work, you know, when I work with a lot of social anxiety

00:26:08.460 clients, if I talk to this person, they're going to hate me. It's going to go terrible. They're

00:26:13.020 going to not like this about me. And we can do all the inner work in the world to get them to have

00:26:18.580 higher self-esteem and feel ready for it. But at the end of the day, the thing that's going to

00:26:22.820 transform it the fastest is to go test that out. Talk to that person and see what actually happens.

00:26:28.280 And just like you said, when I say no, I think it's going to crush them. It's going to be a 10

00:26:31.580 out of 10, ruin their life. It turns out it's a four. And the only way for you to really get that

00:26:38.200 deep down in your nervous system, not just in your intellect, but in your body, so you can feel

00:26:43.780 more relaxed about saying no, is to do it. And to do it many times. Because the first time we do it,

00:26:49.980 we might be like, just overwhelmed and we feel bad and guilty. And then you do it again and again

00:26:56.140 and again. And again, if I talk about this in the book, I say that the three-step process,

00:26:59.680 if you want the 30,000 foot view on how to recalibrate and change ourselves,

00:27:02.980 first is to really get on a level, hey, I don't want to be this nice. This isn't about being a

00:27:08.300 good person. This is about fear. So I'm going to do something different. That's the first step is to

00:27:13.240 really get that and decide. The next step is to do the stuff that's uncomfortable. So someone says,

00:27:18.960 ask you a question, you do say no to them. You do ask for what you want. You do tell someone that

00:27:22.820 you're bothered by something. You're more direct. That's the second step. The third step is to work

00:27:28.380 through all the inner discomfort, which is probably going to be guilt and anxiety. Those are the two

00:27:33.100 biggest discomforts. I feel so guilty for saying that. I feel so anxious because I was more assertive.

00:27:39.700 Did I go too far? Was I a jerk? We deal with that anxiety. We calm ourselves. And over time, 0.99

00:27:47.340 we start to see, wow, the world's not falling apart. My relationships aren't disintegrating.

00:27:52.620 In fact, and this has happened for so many clients of mine, they start to see, wait a minute,

00:27:56.840 people actually are respecting me more. People are, rather than burning the bridge and losing

00:28:02.880 the relationship, they actually seem to be more accommodating with me now that I've been assertive

00:28:08.920 with them. And it's really a whole paradigm shift. It's kind of mind-blowing for people when they see it.

00:28:13.260 Yeah. I mean, I think that's what a lot of nice people don't realize or people who are having

00:28:16.860 this nice problem is that people respect individuals with autonomy and agency and who

00:28:22.980 are bold and know what they want. They respect that or healthy people respect that, I guess I should

00:28:27.780 say. There might be some unhealthy people that actually take pleasure in someone who is groveling

00:28:33.220 and passive. But most people want, especially for guys, women want a guy who knows what he wants in 0.96

00:28:38.680 life and goes after it. Absolutely. Yeah. Which is the opposite of nice.

00:28:43.560 Well, let's talk about some brass tacks things here that kind of help people kind of get through

00:28:48.780 those sticking points when they're first starting on this recalibration process. I know for a lot of

00:28:53.340 nice people, saying no just fills them with dread because they feel like they're going to let someone

00:28:58.900 down. They're going to upset them. So what are some things that people can do to get better at saying

00:29:06.420 no in a way that's maybe graceful? Because I think it's like a lot of people are feeling when they say

00:29:12.480 no, they're afraid they're going to be awkward about it. So any insights there?

00:29:17.140 Really, we want to let ourselves be beginners. So I want to look great doing some kind of dance. I

00:29:25.200 don't know, ballroom dancing. I actually don't really want to do that, but that's a great example.

00:29:30.400 I want to look smooth ballroom dancing. Maybe you got a vision of some movie you saw. I want to be that.

00:29:35.620 Okay, great. On your first dance lesson, you're probably not going to be that. And maybe it's

00:29:40.880 going to take you a while. And it's the same thing with saying no. And you really want to start to think

00:29:44.660 about all these things as just skills. And usually, if we've been nice for 10, 20, 30, 50 years,

00:29:49.980 whatever, we haven't built that skill. The muscles kind of atrophied and weak. So we got to build it up

00:29:56.440 and just give yourself permission to be a little clunky and a little messy. It's like, oh, what if it's

00:30:01.100 awkward? Okay, well, my first couple will be awkward. And then I'm going to learn some things.

00:30:05.420 And then I can do a few more. And then it'll be smoother and smoother and smoother. And I'll give

00:30:08.960 some specific tips too, though, so it can help accelerate that process. One is to, first and

00:30:15.880 foremost, give yourself complete permission to say no to things in life. Because as long as you have

00:30:21.500 this conflict inside, oh, I'm so bad for saying no, it's going to come across either as overly

00:30:28.760 apologetic because you think you're doing something super bad or kind of harsh and defensive. Like,

00:30:35.240 I have a right to say no. And so you're kind of harder in your voice. But when you're really okay

00:30:41.140 with it, you could be a lot more relaxed and loving about it. Oh, come on, you should stay an extra day

00:30:45.340 for this thing. Oh, you know, thank you for the offer. That sounds great. But I need to get back

00:30:50.880 to whatever. So I'm not going to be able to do that. And you're just very calm about it because

00:30:55.760 you know it's okay for you to say no. So that's honestly, that inner work and that inner permission

00:31:00.220 is the biggest tip. And then in terms of the nuts and bolts of what comes out of your mouth,

00:31:06.480 I recommend saying no early and often, early rather than later. So when someone invites you to do

00:31:13.000 something, if you know you're a no, don't say, oh yeah, totally. Yeah. Let me check my schedule and

00:31:18.060 get back to you. That's just you kicking the can down the road because you don't want to feel that

00:31:22.680 discomfort or you don't want to say it to their face. So you'll say it via text. And like, that's

00:31:26.920 an opportunity to step up. This is boldness training. This is courage training to be more real

00:31:31.960 and authentic. So they say, hey, can you come to this thing? You say, oh, actually, no, I have plans on

00:31:37.720 Saturday. I'm not going to make it. Or, oh, you know, that kind of thing doesn't seem

00:31:41.960 like my sort of activity, but I'd love to get lunch with you next week. So you say no,

00:31:47.420 you say it directly. The other thing is don't, don't apologize unless you've done something

00:31:54.500 out of your values. You hurt somebody or you yelled at someone, you know, I berated their

00:32:00.220 character. If someone invites you to do something and you say no, in my book, that's not apology worthy.

00:32:07.220 Because again, that shows that you think you're doing something wrong. Hey, can you come join me for

00:32:10.740 this thing? No, sorry. And then don't offer like a really long explanation. I'm so sorry. I would

00:32:17.340 love to be able to do it, but I got to get my cat from the groomers. I don't know. And instead just

00:32:24.720 you can use things like, I won't be able to make it or, oh, thanks for the invite or, oh,

00:32:30.120 unfortunately I'm not free that day. So things like unfortunately and thanks indicate like you care,

00:32:35.880 but they're not apologetic. So those are some of the basic tips that I would offer.

00:32:40.500 Yeah. I found whenever I I've offered explanations that gets you in a bind because people are like,

00:32:45.420 well, they'll resolve the, the, the explanation. Like, well, okay, just do this and then you can

00:32:50.000 do it. And you're like, ah, crap. Okay. That I'm, I'm in a pickle now. Cause he's right. 0.99

00:32:54.860 Yeah. And that's where there's these opportunities to just be a little more real with people.

00:32:58.820 And, and this is where there's this whole art to this, to be direct and assertive, but with, uh,

00:33:07.700 with care, with tact. And this is where you really see the difference between

00:33:10.720 niceness and real love, connection, compassion, and kindness and authenticity. So someone invites

00:33:16.180 you to go, Hey, come join me for this ball game. And you're like, oh, I, uh, I can't that Friday.

00:33:21.700 Cause I got such and such. And they're like, oh, well, Hey, you know what? It's a series. So

00:33:25.700 they're playing on Tuesday night. Should come out on Tuesday. And now you're like, oh God,

00:33:29.900 I have to make up an excuse for every night of the week. So better instead of that, they say,

00:33:34.920 Hey, come to this ball game on Saturday. Say, wow, that's a thank you. That's really cool. I know

00:33:39.900 it's like a series going on right now. Thank you for offering me that ticket. That's, that's really

00:33:43.300 cool. I want to tell you though, that personally, I'm not a big fan of baseball, so I don't think I

00:33:49.920 would really enjoy that. I'd rather do something else with you. You want to go for a, you want to go for a

00:33:54.840 hike next week instead. Now, because you've been more authentic, you didn't, you're not hiding

00:34:01.220 anything. And, and just, just to check in Brett, like if you heard that, does that seem like that

00:34:06.380 would crush someone? Does that seem offensive or harsh? No. Cause that person would find someone

00:34:10.540 else to go with probably. Right. And you're just, you're just telling them. And I do, you know,

00:34:15.160 I'm saying, Hey, thanks for the invite is acknowledging the other person for inviting you,

00:34:18.800 but there's no apology there. And it's, it's really about connection with that person,

00:34:22.600 but you're now that person knows and they're not going to offer the Tuesday one or the next one or

00:34:27.160 the next one or the next one. And they just, they, they know you better. And I talk about this in the

00:34:30.900 book. Like we have a choice. We can strive in life to be liked by everyone. That's the people

00:34:36.200 pleasing approval seeking, or we can strive to be known. And when you share, Hey, I'm not, I'm not

00:34:42.780 into baseball. Let's do something else. Now that person knows you better and they know not to invite

00:34:47.040 you to that anymore. It doesn't mean your friendship's over. It just means, Oh yeah,

00:34:51.120 Z's doesn't like baseball. So let's invite him to do something else. Let's get to that people

00:34:54.840 pleasing thing. Cause I think that's a, you know, sort of the heart of being nice. The reason why

00:34:58.580 people don't say no, the reason why people don't say what they want, like, what is the mindset shift

00:35:04.600 that has to happen? So you stop people pleasing all the time. That's a big one. Uh, so people

00:35:12.060 pleasing is also called approval seeking. It's basically each person that I interact with,

00:35:18.560 I want them to like me. And first and foremost, I want them to not have any negative thoughts,

00:35:24.500 feelings, or judgments about me whatsoever. Secondly, I maybe also, I want them to think

00:35:30.860 I'm really cool and be impressed by me. That's great too. But first and foremost, I want them to

00:35:34.500 not judge me or dislike me. And without knowing it, most people have that. Oh, sorry. I just got a

00:35:42.440 call coming in there. I should put that on. So, um, edit that out. Um, without knowing it,

00:35:48.860 most people have this subtle orientation to each person that they meet. I want them to like me.

00:35:54.740 And it might not be this intense kind of groveling. I need this energy, but just it's in there in the

00:35:59.820 background and we feel bad. We feel uncomfortable. We feel like something's going wrong. We, we wonder

00:36:07.280 why, you know, someone flips you off when you're driving and the most common reactions are to be

00:36:13.160 hurt. Why? I didn't do anything wrong or to get enraged back, which is just the flip side of the

00:36:19.240 hurt. So to shift this is the next person like me. I mean, the next person like me, that means I need

00:36:27.900 everyone to like me. That that's a, that's an exhausting quest. And what's missing is, well,

00:36:35.200 why don't I feel secure in myself? And to bring it back to, you know, child rearing and growing up,

00:36:43.980 this comes from a attachment, attachment theory, um, from John Bowlby is a psychologist that really

00:36:49.800 researched a lot of this, but we connect with our parents. We attach to our parents and they

00:36:53.980 attach to us. And ideally the parent is like, Hey, I love you. I'm generally patient with you and try to

00:37:00.260 spend some time with you and give you attention and be with you a lot as much as I can. And you

00:37:04.300 matter, you valuable and so forth. And then we get a secure attachment with that parent and we feel

00:37:11.780 like, Hey, I'm pretty worthwhile and I'm okay. And I, how'd I go into the world? Problems start to

00:37:16.660 occur though, when unfortunately that attachment maybe is not the best. Maybe our parent is really

00:37:21.000 busy a lot of the time. Maybe they get really angry at us. Maybe they like us if we do X and Y,

00:37:25.960 but as soon as we start doing, we get messy or we talk back or we're wild, they get really angry.

00:37:31.220 And, or they're just like in the case of my dad, my dad was just, um, very busy with work,

00:37:37.660 but also when he was at home, he was just kind of in his own world and in his own head and not

00:37:42.380 able to like really slow down and be with his kids and pay attention to them. And so with that comes

00:37:47.580 this sense of like, am I okay? And why doesn't, am I, am I okay? And they call it insecure attachment.

00:37:53.860 And so I think at the root of it, a lot of us have that kind of insecurity in our attachment.

00:37:59.840 You might be saying, well, how does this have to do with approval seeking? Well,

00:38:02.760 I don't have that strong attachment bond with anyone. So then I go to you and I'm like,

00:38:08.500 can I plug my hose in with you? Will you give me attachment? No. Okay. How about you? And we're

00:38:13.900 just trying to get it from every person that we meet. And the solution to this is not just a mindset

00:38:18.640 shift. It's like a heart shift. It's like a, we have to heal that inside of us that is insecure,

00:38:25.220 that is missing. And that's a, that's a process I could talk more about if you give you the top

00:38:29.460 level view, if you're interested, but we really got to basically learn how to unconditionally be

00:38:34.420 with and love ourselves and, and heal up those attachment issues so that we feel more relaxed

00:38:39.880 talking to other people. Well, so yeah, top level, like what does that look like? That process?

00:38:44.000 Sure. Basically it means that when we feel insecurity, inadequacy, pain of not enoughness,

00:38:52.740 needing, oh man, I'm so upset because they didn't like me. Instead of scrambling so much to get it out

00:38:58.180 there, we need to slow down and take time to like find that grasping, aching part of us. It's usually

00:39:07.140 in our chest, maybe in our stomach and our throat, like physically in our body and be with it and then

00:39:14.260 start to treat that like the parent we never had. So basically we give it attention. And I say it,

00:39:23.800 it's kind of like a part of us or feelings inside of us. We give that, so that part, let me give you a

00:39:28.420 more concrete example. I really want this woman to like me. You know, maybe we just met or we went on a 0.99

00:39:34.900 date and now, uh, she's not responding to my texts or it doesn't, I don't know, maybe she doesn't seem

00:39:39.960 interested in me for a second date. And I have this like overwhelming sense of anxiety and I messed it

00:39:46.500 up and I'm worthless and all this pain. And a lot of the time we might obsess on what was the text that

00:39:54.600 I sent her? How do I, how do I get her back? What's the, you know, you go online and look up some

00:39:59.220 pithy texts to winter back or whatever. And, uh, instead of all that, what I'm suggesting is you,

00:40:05.160 you literally stop what you're doing. Maybe go for a walk, um, sit down in your house or whatever

00:40:10.020 and turn off all TV and everything and just breathe and go inward and find that squeezing

00:40:15.800 pain right in your chest, in your stomach, somewhere else in your body. And it's, if it's strong, you'll,

00:40:19.700 you'll feel it. And you, and you just, um, relax and give that, imagine it's like a

00:40:26.760 10 year old kid or a five year old kid or a 12 year old kid. It doesn't matter whatever age.

00:40:31.700 It was just like, Hey, I want this person to like me. And you just meet it with empathy,

00:40:38.440 patience, and love. Yeah, of course you, you want, you really want her to like you. You want,

00:40:43.920 it hurts that she's not responding to you. I know you want control. You wish you could get it,

00:40:49.000 but you can't. And it's not so much the words I'm using words here, but it's really an attitude

00:40:53.320 and energy towards yourself. And here's the biggest thing I've found. It's actually most

00:40:58.140 important, more than the words, more than the energy. It's the attention. It's giving that part

00:41:02.980 attention just like, cause it's that kid inside of us that didn't get that attention. And I found

00:41:07.680 that for, to really heal this stuff, people need to do this on a daily basis, you know, not that long,

00:41:14.320 maybe 15, 20 minutes a day. But you know, as you walk, as you run, do your exercise, you just,

00:41:19.800 or just sitting in your house, you just focus in on it. And over time, it's not like a magic light

00:41:25.500 switch, but over time, over a couple of weeks or months, people really heal it in a deep way and

00:41:31.020 start to feel a lot more secure. And all of a sudden, something like that happens. And they're

00:41:36.080 like, wow, I don't feel so stressed out about it as I used to. That sounds a lot like a loving

00:41:42.360 kindness meditation or self-compassion meditation. I think I've heard it described. So yeah, and you can

00:41:46.780 find those online if you want, if you're looking for a guided meditation, find some self-compassion

00:41:50.920 meditation. And again, like once you have that secure attachment, I imagine that resolves a lot.

00:41:55.880 I mean, like you feel more secure about being rejected because you're like, well, I'm okay,

00:42:00.600 right? Cause I'm, I'm good with myself. You feel okay by saying no, because you, you have that,

00:42:05.540 that foundation within yourself. So maybe that, that's one of the key, like you said, like it's like

00:42:10.220 heart change can go a long way in clearing up a lot of this stuff. Absolutely. Well, let's talk

00:42:17.000 about boundaries. What, what do you mean by boundaries and why do nice people have such a

00:42:21.420 hard time establishing or keeping them? Sure. Well, boundaries are simply knowing what you want

00:42:29.240 or don't want in a situation, your preferences, if you will. And the example I use in the book is

00:42:34.700 you're sitting in your yard, you share a backyard and there's a fence between you and your neighbor.

00:42:39.240 And there's a little gate there or something. And your neighbor comes over and, uh, opens the gate

00:42:45.560 to your yard and you're just sitting in your backyard. Does that bother you? I don't know.

00:42:51.080 Maybe not. And then they walk into your yard and they go to your, you have a peach tree in your yard

00:42:55.320 and they walk over and there's some fresh peaches growing on there and they grab a peach and they

00:42:58.580 start to eat it. Does that bother you? Maybe, maybe not. Then they start to walk over to talk to you

00:43:04.480 and they step on your flowers. Does that bother you? And it's a little interesting thought

00:43:10.480 experiment because this is a sign of, of boundaries. Like, do you want them to enter your yard? Do you

00:43:14.460 want them to eat your fruit? Do you want them to walk in your flowers? And we want to know first and

00:43:17.940 foremost, what do I, what do I, what's right for me? What do I want or not want? And so in that

00:43:22.520 instance, people can usually imagine like, well, maybe I wouldn't mind them coming into my yard.

00:43:26.120 We like to talk now and then, but wait a minute, eat my fruit, step on my flowers.

00:43:31.540 And so those are signs of your boundaries. So you're talking to someone and, um, you know,

00:43:37.120 they're sharing about their lives and that's interesting for you. Great. But all of a sudden

00:43:40.480 they just start going on and on and on and on. And there's no pauses in the conversation and there's

00:43:45.360 no focus on you at all. And you start to feel like, I'm not really enjoying this. That's like

00:43:52.000 someone stepping on your flowers. That's a sign. That's a signal. And so the, the most important

00:43:57.720 part of being able to have boundaries is to know what they are and you know what they are

00:44:02.220 by paying attention to that inner, Ooh, I like this or I don't like this. And we, we know if

00:44:09.940 we tune in now we can have some nice person training on top that says, don't assert your

00:44:15.780 boundaries. People are, you know, if you tell that guy not to eat your peach, he's going

00:44:18.800 to yell at you or don't change the subject because you're going to crush that person's

00:44:24.460 feelings. You know, so we can have some nice stories that prevent us, but at the, at the

00:44:28.740 core level, it's just knowing and being tuned in to say, what do I want or not want in this

00:44:32.880 situation and honoring that.

00:44:34.600 And in the end, a lot of people think that they don't, they don't have boundaries. It's

00:44:37.800 going to make people like them. But as we've been talking about, if you don't have boundaries,

00:44:42.580 like people in a weird way don't like respect you less and they like you less and it prevents

00:44:48.360 you for having that really like genuine relationship with that person.

00:44:51.860 Really? And it's, you might get quote, get people to like you, but not the people that

00:44:55.960 you want. You get, you're going to get people that are, that have their own issues with

00:44:59.400 boundaries. And probably if you're the one with no boundaries, you get someone who is

00:45:02.360 used to stomping all over the place in other people's yards. So someone who's more controlling

00:45:06.120 or that's what you're going to get. And when you establish this and have those boundaries,

00:45:12.640 you, you do have relationships, but with people who also respect boundaries and have

00:45:17.780 healthier boundaries, and it leads to a much better relationship.

00:45:21.640 Good fences make good neighbors, right?

00:45:23.500 Yeah, there you go.

00:45:24.520 So let's say you are a parent. Let's say you're, you're a parent and you're like a recovering

00:45:29.940 nice addict, right? And you're realizing that you're, you've got this issue and you're working

00:45:33.820 through it. Like how, what can you do to ensure like you don't pass this on to your kid

00:45:38.560 while simultaneously teaching them how to not be a nice person, but a good person.

00:45:43.880 Um, and whatever that means. So, yeah, well, that's a great question to ask is what does

00:45:49.420 that mean to me? Because when we say, I mean, good and bad are these blanket, uh, sort of

00:45:57.060 evaluations. That's a good person or a bad person. What does that mean? Does that, so really what we

00:46:02.020 want to look at is what are my values? What's important to me in life? Is health important to

00:46:06.820 me? Is being compassionate important to me? Is giving to people in need important to me? Is taking

00:46:13.100 care of the earth important to me? Like, what are the values that I have that I want to impart on my

00:46:19.180 children? And if you're a parent and you've never sat down and done that on paper or gone on a long

00:46:23.400 drive and really thought about it and talked about it with your spouse or whoever you're raising your

00:46:27.780 kids with, um, I highly recommend you do that. And that's a fundamental thing that's overlooked and

00:46:34.840 it's, it's good for you to do for yourself too. You know, what, what are my values? What's

00:46:38.440 important to me in life? Then how do I want to impart that on my kids? Well, the, the first way

00:46:44.540 that kids learn from their parents is modeling. The second dumb most common way that kids learn from 0.98

00:46:51.800 their parents is modeling. And the third way is also modeling. Like your kids are going to learn 0.99

00:46:56.040 way, way, way, way, way more from watching you and seeing how you operate in the world with other

00:47:01.140 people, with your, in your, within your family and with them. They're going to observe all that and

00:47:07.380 they're going to replicate a lot of that. So you value health, but you smoke. It's not going to,

00:47:15.020 the messages and it doesn't matter what you tell your kids. And same thing. If you value kindness

00:47:18.800 and respect and you want your kids to be kind and to respect people, and then you treat them in a

00:47:24.100 disrespectful way. Hey, stop that. You put that down. And that's how you're talking to your kids.

00:47:30.140 It doesn't matter what you tell them to do later on. What you're modeling for them is this is how you

00:47:35.900 talk to people, you boss them around, you bark orders at them. And sure enough, that's what

00:47:39.940 you're going to get back. And kids are a great mirror for that. So I think that's the second

00:47:43.800 step is to, is first to get clear on your values, then to do the inner work to really be able to live

00:47:50.380 by your values. And that ain't easy because kids are demanding. I absolutely will tell you that. So

00:47:56.120 that's the, one of the core challenges. That's the growth opportunity in parenting is to be able to

00:48:02.760 mature faster with those kids. And then the last part I'd say is if you want them to be,

00:48:09.120 you know, the biggest thing that people want is their kids to be caring about other people,

00:48:12.640 kind, you know, it's hard to watch your kid, like, I don't know, knock some other kid over

00:48:16.920 or something like that. And so parents want to get in there and stop that behavior right away.

00:48:22.960 So don't you ever do that again. And then they also feel a little embarrassed. Oh man,

00:48:27.260 people saw my kid do that. I got to publicly chastise my kid, even though it's not going to

00:48:34.300 probably do anything, but just to show other parents that I'm doing something here. And I

00:48:39.400 really think it's worth reexamining all that and saying, well, how do kids actually grow? And

00:48:44.420 one thing that is different is in attachment-based parenting, you realize that the attachment and

00:48:50.760 having a really secure, strong, healthy attachment with that kid is going to grow them into a

00:48:56.080 thoughtful, caring, self-directed, you know, a member of society. And that emerges over time

00:49:04.380 like a plant. So you don't need to like whack it every time it goes out of line. You just keep

00:49:09.180 working with it and have that secure attachment, treat them with respect, have, and this is a hard

00:49:15.540 one. Can I develop unconditional love? What does that even look like? Because man, it's hard not to

00:49:22.840 withdraw love when they do something annoying, but can I find it in myself to still lovingly tell

00:49:28.360 them no and not exasperatedly telling them no? I mean, these are ongoing challenges for me and I

00:49:34.700 think for all parents, but I think it's a fight worth fighting and the growth worth doing because

00:49:39.300 ultimately, you know, you have a kid who is kind and caring, but is also more self-directed and

00:49:46.660 assertive and doesn't have to deprogram all this nice stuff that all of us do.

00:49:50.400 Yeah. I mean, it sounds like having kids can help a nice person. Like it gives you like the

00:49:55.000 motivation to take care of yourself first because you realize how much your kids are watching you

00:50:01.100 and they're going to model your behaviors. Like it's kind of a turbo boost to getting out of your

00:50:05.980 own stuff. Absolutely.

00:50:07.060 Well, Laziz, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book and the

00:50:11.040 rest of your work? Sure. I'd say the best place is on my website, which is socialconfidencecenter.com.

00:50:18.080 That's socialconfidencecenter.com. And there's information about all my books there,

00:50:23.480 as well as an ebook that people can get for free to get started right away and live events and

00:50:30.140 YouTube stuff. And just, it's a great place if any of this intrigues you and you wanted to go further.

00:50:35.160 There's a lot of resources there.

00:50:36.780 Fantastic. Well, Dr. Aziz, thanks so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:50:39.460 Absolutely. This was fun. Thanks, Brett.

00:50:41.040 My guest today was Dr. Aziz Ghazipura. He's the author of the book, Not Nice. It's available

00:50:44.740 on amazon.com. You can also find out more information about his work at

00:50:47.860 socialconfidencecenter.com. Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash not nice.

00:50:53.480 Where you can find links to resources, where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:50:56.080 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,

00:51:12.320 make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And if you enjoy the show,

00:51:16.120 got something out of it, I'd appreciate it if you take one minute to give us a review on iTunes or

00:51:19.740 Stitcher. It helps out a lot. As always, thank you for your continued support. And until next time,

00:51:23.940 this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.

The Art of Manliness - May 22, 2018

#407： How to Overcome Nice Guy Syndrome

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