The Art of Manliness - #408： The Incredible Forgotten Story of WWII's Ed Dyess

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast ed dyess was a

00:00:18.920 smart talent athletic kid from texas who had a passion for flying movie star good looks and a

00:00:23.420 flair for acting thanks to a chance encounter on a highway in the middle of nowhere he went on to

00:00:27.200 become an ace fighter pilot lead men with guns a-blazing in america's first amphibious attack

00:00:31.560 during world war ii survive the baton death march and escape a harsh japanese pow camp all the while

00:00:36.720 dyess kept quietly inspiring and leading everyone he encountered today on the show i discuss this

00:00:41.260 real life gi joe with writer and filmmaker john lucas john is the author of escape from davo and

00:00:45.720 he made a documentary about dyess called 4443 narrated by a1 podcast guest dale die john

00:00:51.440 shares how die started his military career as a fighter pilot during world war ii but ended up

00:00:55.180 leading men on the ground in the earliest infantry battles in the pacific we then dig into dies

00:00:59.140 experience during the bantan death march and how he continued to support his men during the crucible

00:01:03.400 john then shares how dies along with nine other men escaped from one of japan's harshest prison camps

00:01:08.020 and how he fought his way out of the jungle to let his government know the atrocities going on in the

00:01:12.300 philippines we enter conversation with a discussion of why ed didn't win the medal of honor despite his

00:01:16.320 heroic actions his tragic death and leadership lessons we can all take from him after the show's

00:01:20.560 over check out the show notes at aom.is slash dies that's d-y-e-s-s

00:01:25.100 john lucas welcome to the show thank you for having me glad to be here so uh you reached out to me

00:01:44.300 after i think we did the podcast about the liberator right the guy alex kershaw's book

00:01:51.800 yeah alex kershaw's book incredible story just following the 45th infantry all the way from italy

00:01:57.160 to germany you reached out to me said hey i've got another story that a lot of people don't know

00:02:02.180 about and the guy's incredible his name's ed dies before we get in the details how did you discover

00:02:07.880 this story of ed dies and why do so few people know about him well brett it's an excellent way

00:02:14.040 to start off very few people know about ed dies just because battle of baton you know in the the

00:02:19.880 darkest earliest days of world war ii it was a loss i think uh you know you mentioned uh alex's book

00:02:27.240 you know and felix sparks we we tend to dwell on the the victories you know in terms of military history

00:02:33.060 especially you know in the u.s i think it it is a uh you know i don't know if it's a an ego thing

00:02:39.180 definitely you know we we don't want to talk about when things went wrong that was a situation where

00:02:44.100 things went very wrong so i think that his story has been you know as he was a big part of that battle

00:02:50.160 it was the the largest remains the largest surrender in u.s military history and that's that's

00:02:56.180 probably the you know the the reason why we haven't heard that much about it right but you know

00:03:00.820 despite losing that he did some incredible stuff we're gonna get into what he did because he is like

00:03:05.600 a real life gi joe but before there let's get to his background where where was ed from where was he

00:03:11.980 raised and he started off as a a pilot so did he have an interest in aviation even as a young man

00:03:18.960 yes that's a great line to call him gi joe i've used captain america quite a lot and they're both

00:03:25.000 interchangeable he is almost a you know a superhero type figure and you know it's strange

00:03:30.600 sort of i actually go back to your previous question you know i was researching this story

00:03:35.640 about this escape from a japanese prison camp it was the only large-scale pow escape of the pacific

00:03:42.200 war obviously colonel dyes participated in that he was a you know prime mover in that story but it was

00:03:47.540 through the course of researching that escape story that i got into the battle of baton and corregidor

00:03:52.880 again the early part of the war in the philippines and dyes his name popped up everywhere so this is you

00:03:59.020 know long before he became a prisoner of war before the baton death march he was basically

00:04:03.680 gi joe-ing it around in the philippines in in the air on the ground and and and doing everything he

00:04:10.020 possibly could so yeah i mean as a young man he he was kind of exceptional even as a young man he showed

00:04:14.980 a lot of leadership potential i mean he's kind of mr all-american even as a teenager right yes i mean

00:04:22.020 you know he's you know to get into his background growing up in texas small town called albany

00:04:27.000 and basically it was was the frontier he was born in 1916 and uh you know it was the kind of town

00:04:33.400 where residents at this time they remember billy the kid wyatt earp coming through there there's a lot

00:04:38.600 going on in the country at this time and you know in terms of progress moving forward the new frontier

00:04:43.640 was the sky it was airplanes the aviation boom post world war one into the 20s and that's you know he

00:04:52.500 he got hooked there were a bunch of guys oh you know barnstorming pilots world war one guys that

00:04:57.480 would you know land in these small towns out in the you know middle of texas midwest they'd try to

00:05:02.700 make a few bucks by taking up uh townspeople for airplane rides and ed dyess he got his first ride

00:05:08.900 at the age of four and he was he was hooked ever since and he like saved up for money like you know

00:05:13.260 did odd jobs so he could take pilot lessons even as like he was like a teenager when that happened

00:05:17.460 right yeah he worked several several odd jobs in order to be able to take flying lessons and i think

00:05:23.100 it was you know it was one of those things where i you know i guess for you know for for a boy or

00:05:28.200 something back then i'm sure you know sports were you know a big deal i think a lot of these guys they

00:05:32.780 looked up the pilots and things who were doing these you know extraordinary technological feats he

00:05:38.220 was into charles lindbergh i guess instead of you know babe ruth but he was he was very resourceful

00:05:42.420 and again keep in mind this is you know the great depression nobody was was sitting around you know

00:05:47.100 watching tv or playing on the internet and you know no cell phones like that so he was out and

00:05:51.240 about he was busy working and you know like i said doing odd jobs and you know multiple things in order

00:05:56.060 to to indulge his love of flying but also to sort of uh you know further his education did he sign up

00:06:02.160 to be a army pilot right out of high school or did he have other plans and then got diverted there

00:06:07.680 no you know what he he was he was kind of you know a jack of all trades in high school class president

00:06:13.060 obviously you know his leadership skills you know were evident from an early age he was really into

00:06:17.840 acting he had a dramatic flair and he was great at sports kept the flying thing on the down low i

00:06:23.760 don't think his his mother wasn't very very keen into it so i think the the flying lessons were very

00:06:29.000 secret and he ended up going away to school a place called john tarleton agricultural college now

00:06:34.820 tarleton state in stephenville texas about an hour away from albany outside of abilene where the air force

00:06:40.720 base is named for him graduated from there again did all the same things in high school kind of you

00:06:45.300 know was big man on campus and and then when he graduated well he was also an rotc that was a high

00:06:50.980 school and college thing so you know he had that i guess early military tendencies as well but you know

00:06:56.740 it's a great story he was hitchhiking to the university of texas in austin after he you know got

00:07:01.800 his undergraduate degree he was going to go to law school his father was a was a judge he he never got to

00:07:07.340 austin though he ended up being picked up by a flyer a guy who had washed out of the randolph and

00:07:13.540 kelly field training program which was called the west point of the air at the time before before we

00:07:18.760 had an air force academy so he never made it to austin he literally and figuratively did a u-turn

00:07:24.200 with his life and went back and and told his father he said that you know i want to i want to be a pilot and

00:07:30.380 i want to fly the fastest aircraft around and there was only one way to do that at the time and that

00:07:34.820 was the united states military so how did he fare in his early in his military career this was before

00:07:40.180 world war ii started i assume that he correct this was uh right the mid to late 1930s once he

00:07:46.240 was accepted into the flight training program you know the west point of the air and it was just you

00:07:51.340 know a perfect fit basically went to the head of the class in terms of leadership flying skills and

00:07:57.340 everything that was was needed and kind of made his way up uh you know through the ranks and then

00:08:01.980 became the country's youngest squadron commander in 1940 and where was he stationed you know when

00:08:08.680 japan bombed pearl harbor did he have a role in pearl harbor at all uh no actually he was he was in

00:08:14.920 the philippines and he left the u.s he deployed in november 1941 he arrived in manila thanksgiving day

00:08:22.060 1941 which was about two weeks before the attack on pearl harbor and so he was already there he was uh you

00:08:28.980 know at the on the tip of the spear i guess you could say in terms of you know our most far-flung

00:08:33.960 outpost in the pacific the philippines and you know it's interesting because pearl harbor really

00:08:39.420 gets you know the all the attention december 7th 1941 but december 8th was the date in the philippines

00:08:46.680 due to the you know the international dateline factor the japanese now they hit pearl harbor once and

00:08:52.100 they hit him pretty hard but they hit the philippines december 8th and the difference between you know the

00:08:57.500 famous day of infamy and pearl harbor they kept coming back to the philippines and kept leveling

00:09:02.940 our forces there you know throughout december so so dais was you know he was in the thick of it from

00:09:08.480 from day one yeah and he shot down several planes i think in those those skirmishes yes he shot down

00:09:14.460 reportedly six planes which would qualify him as as an ace you need five five enemy uh five enemy planes

00:09:22.380 to qualify as an ace he shot up a japanese truck convoy unfortunately though uh with the loss of

00:09:28.660 records and this was an early part of the war again there were no gun cameras on the fighter planes p40

00:09:33.620 war hawks at the time you know but that was kind of the least of his worries was at the time was you

00:09:39.000 know being able to get credit for shooting down the planes would have been nice but you know there

00:09:43.320 were a lot of other things going on shortage of food shortage of ammunition wasn't enough oxygen for

00:09:48.460 the high altitude compressors so these guys you know they couldn't they couldn't really get in any

00:09:52.900 high altitude dog fights so there was uh you know he was making do with with what he had but again you

00:09:58.800 know the way that guy operated he functioned spectacularly you know with very limited resources

00:10:03.620 how old was he at this time he started out when the war started he was 25 okay so he's 25 so you know

00:10:09.380 about mid-20s but still pretty young right i think right it's funny sometimes whenever i tend to do

00:10:14.380 this when i think back to like world war ii vets i'm like oh yeah they were like in their 30s but

00:10:18.660 like these guys like someone like 19 20 21 like flying big beef you know bombers and fighter jets

00:10:25.560 like these were really young guys exactly and that's that's that's something that i've always you know

00:10:29.760 found found as amazing you know similarly it's it's strange i think we do have a tendency

00:10:35.140 when you're studying history especially you know you think back at the the revolutionary war

00:10:40.760 you know and you think of those guys as just being a bunch of old timers you know and with

00:10:45.160 the exception of ben franklin they were all in their 20s and i think washington was you know in

00:10:49.280 his low 30s you know so these guys were all very young and you know it was similarly with world with

00:10:55.160 world war ii you know these guys are put on the front lines right off the bat you know and again as

00:11:00.400 you know he was in the service you know before the war obviously wasn't a part of the draft he wasn't you

00:11:04.980 know he was he was in it from day one so he was one of those guys that was uh kind of learning

00:11:10.040 learning as he went you know as a young guy you know started out as an amateur command right and

00:11:16.180 literally becoming a professional in a matter of matter of weeks all right so here's dais he's

00:11:20.740 beginning the war basically an ace because he shot you know shooting down japanese zeros but suddenly

00:11:27.720 like he become he has to become an infantryman so he goes from fighter pilot to you know you know

00:11:34.120 basically a grunt on the ground like how did that happen how did why did he have to go from being a

00:11:38.220 pilot to an infantryman it was a really unfortunate turn of events you know the the famous line that

00:11:43.840 dais uttered you know he he joined the he joined the military to fly planes he wanted to be you know

00:11:49.300 fighting a war in a cockpit about the jungle was out on patrol as as as an infantryman and was overheard

00:11:56.560 to remark to one of his one of his troops that he'd rather be back home in texas staring at the

00:12:02.680 southbound end of northbound mule he was you know he wasn't happy with the situation but

00:12:08.060 again the uh exigencies of the of the situation the japanese had a blockade on the the main pacific

00:12:15.260 battle fleet was basically demolished we lucked out that they didn't hit any of the carriers of pearl

00:12:19.980 harbor but we we couldn't muster force for any convoys we couldn't relieve the philippines we

00:12:24.600 couldn't get reinforcements supplies after a while you know attrition basically took care of our

00:12:30.160 our our small air force in the philippines at the time and so dais was uh taken out of the cockpit

00:12:35.740 handed a rifle and sent into the jungle yeah and i think you know part of the problem too we talked

00:12:40.000 about this in my we did a podcast about lucky 666 you know at the time the beginning of the war the

00:12:45.680 strategy for the allies was europe first right so like most of the resources were going to europe and

00:12:52.680 you know the guys in the pacific weren't really getting that much exactly you nailed it you know and

00:12:57.900 to be perfectly honest i think you know to go back to even the first question why have we not heard

00:13:02.680 about dies why isn't this story you know gotten gotten more attention is i think there there still

00:13:08.220 is a europe first mentality i think we you know we i don't know the exact numbers but if you look at

00:13:14.500 you know publishing houses you know hollywood european movies european theater stories are predominant

00:13:21.220 and i think that that's just partially a factor of most people have some type of historical or

00:13:26.900 hereditary ties to europe to the continent and it was just a more you know a romantic type war you

00:13:32.120 know you're you know you're basically dealing with a bunch of you know natives don't speak english

00:13:36.900 there's there's no big cities there's nothing there's nothing that geographically or or you know

00:13:42.720 historically connects anybody to all these little islands and atolls basically out in the middle of

00:13:47.740 nowhere and so yes i mean he was he was suffering from uh you know the europe first strategy where you

00:13:54.600 know the the lion's share of the united states and as the arsenal of democracy was was sending

00:14:00.000 around the world the philippines got very little of it and that's that's a great tragedy you know in

00:14:05.020 my opinion is you know the decision was made obviously a strategic one that you know we would be

00:14:10.420 basically supporting the war efforts of almost every other country uh great britain soviet union

00:14:16.260 but yet our own guys were left out right but so yeah so ed didn't like the situation but he still

00:14:24.700 made the best of it like what did he do to overcome this challenge especially the challenge of leading

00:14:29.680 men who are probably demoralized because of the situation right you know and it's again you know he he

00:14:35.720 was fortunate in you know and having these very special you know this innate talent for leadership but

00:14:41.420 the men under his command they they they weren't really digging the the new roles either and keep

00:14:47.000 in mind it's it's a lot different than you know current military training where you know almost

00:14:51.700 everybody is some type of you know has to qualify for marksmanship or you know knows how to pitch a tent

00:14:57.880 or you know spend the night out in the field somewhere use a compass you know go on long hikes

00:15:02.540 endurance stamina that type of thing back then uh you know the military training was a lot different if you

00:15:08.040 went in the air force you're going to be a pilot you you spent your time around planes you're going

00:15:12.000 to be a mechanic you were taking apart engines and so these guys had no idea how to do how to be basic

00:15:18.380 field soldiers that was just you know a product of the era but dais thankfully through his through

00:15:23.700 his background his upbringing you know growing up again kind of on the frontier in texas i know how

00:15:29.220 he knew how to ride a horse he was he was handy with with uh with firearms and so he was able to sort of

00:15:35.500 transmit that knowledge through his leadership skills through the first force of his personality

00:15:40.200 basically to sort of serve as uh you know a commanding officer but also a drill sergeant also

00:15:46.640 a uh you know a weapons expert communicate everything he knew to to his men i think that's

00:15:52.620 these guys are very fortunate that you know he did have that background that upbringing and training and

00:15:56.800 i think it you know it helped them get through a very difficult situation right what i thought was

00:16:00.780 impressive like he he didn't wait around for someone to tell him to do that he just did it like he saw a

00:16:05.300 problem and he just like i need to show these guys how to how to shoot and we're going to train for

00:16:09.620 that now exactly i mean there was uh you know it was it was funny that you know some of the stories

00:16:14.980 i've heard and uh i've been fortunate to interview guys who served with him uh in his unit and they're

00:16:20.780 basically all gone now except for except there's one sort of lone survivor left and from what you

00:16:26.640 know this gentleman told me lieutenant colonel calgill john calgill is his name dais didn't believe in

00:16:31.500 sitting around he was obviously a junior officer so he knew how to take and fulfill orders but he was

00:16:37.900 he was very proactive all right so dais in the philippines because he's there he had the opportunity

00:16:43.340 to take part in america's first amphibious battle of world war ii uh so so tell us about that that battle

00:16:49.700 february 2nd night 1942 the battle of aglalama bay on the west coast the philippines the baton

00:16:57.420 peninsula very very extraordinary circumstances but you know trying times you know bring out the

00:17:04.360 best in in extraordinary people and dais was there at the right time the right place the right moment

00:17:09.940 in history you know it's really hard to describe how fighter pilot ended up leading america's first

00:17:14.960 amphibious landing of the war he had demonstrated such proficiency as as an infantry leader as a ground

00:17:22.620 pounder as a as a real true warrior instead of just being a fly boy that high command they figured

00:17:29.020 that there was only one guy who could who could successfully pull off this mission and dais he

00:17:33.500 jumped at the opportunity there's this line you described in this document you prepared for the

00:17:38.900 texas medal of honor you talk about the men were just they were in a dire situation there's this it was a

00:17:44.480 tough battle and then dais is able to rally his men i love what he what he said he talked about how did

00:17:50.860 how did dais rally his men who were just kind of you know we're sitting still out of fear basically

00:17:56.480 right yeah he was uh you know at the time and to give you a little bit of background the japanese

00:18:01.800 intended to conquer the philippines in 45 days that was their that was their timetable their schedule

00:18:07.260 because they wanted to get south you know the very oil rich resources the dutch east indies break

00:18:12.400 through that barrier and cut off cut off the allied supply chain to the to hawaii and to the west coast

00:18:18.200 they wanted to get down to australia and but they needed to conquer the philippines and do it quickly

00:18:22.920 and they got kind of desperate so they tried basically an end run on baton you know landing

00:18:28.960 2 000 troops in hopes that they could you know get behind our lines and sow chaos in the rear echelon and

00:18:35.820 bring this campaign to a conclusion but fortunately these these airmen dies the 21st pursuit squadron a lot

00:18:42.600 of shipless sailors and you know a similar kind of a hardscrabble ragtag outfit stopped these guys in

00:18:48.180 the jungles and then uh you know when the landing took place is because there were a few of these

00:18:52.920 japanese soldiers left as you studied the war you know that the fanaticism of the average japanese

00:18:59.100 soldier was was basically unmatched by any other combatants during the war so there was a handful of

00:19:05.380 these guys that refused to surrender but unlike you know the history channel documentaries and all the

00:19:10.380 newsreel footage you know this these guys didn't have flamethrowers they couldn't call in airstrikes

00:19:15.480 they didn't basically didn't have any ships to bombard bombard these guys uh offshore who had you

00:19:20.560 know fortified themselves in these these caves and these little uh readouts you know on the coast there

00:19:26.060 so we had to make an amphibious landing and that's that's where dias came in you know he organized and

00:19:31.460 planned the whole mission from from start to finish handpicked the guys from his unit guys who were you

00:19:36.720 know the crack uh shooters and the outfit guys he knew were were tested under under fire and they

00:19:41.840 wouldn't crumble or wilt but this was this was a new thing i guess it was one thing to be able to ask

00:19:46.680 these guys you know these airmen these pilots and mechanics to fight in the jungle it's another thing

00:19:51.160 to ask them to charge up on a beach you know in terms of enemy fire so a lot of them yes a lot of

00:19:56.100 them did freeze and you know partially fear partially there's no you have no training to fall back on

00:20:01.740 but in that dias he was the first one up on the beach he's firing a lewis machine gun

00:20:06.160 you know basically from the hip almost you know a hollywood type you know cowboy story the dias is up

00:20:12.640 on the he's up on the beach there you know japanese planes are are shooting at him you know dropping

00:20:17.160 fragmentation bombs plus these entrenched soldiers you know that are hugging the shoreline there and

00:20:22.580 their little uh rocky caves they're firing at him so he's basically trying to you know handle this

00:20:28.160 entire situation and get these guys to join him on the beach so he's not the only one fighting this uh

00:20:34.080 making a one-man landing i guess the best best way you could describe it was he he shamed them into

00:20:39.220 into being men into during their duty and they all kind of snapped out of their their funk and they

00:20:45.560 joined him and uh battle made a successful conclusion and ended up stopping the japanese threat

00:20:51.640 long story long story short you know the japanese planned on taking the philippines in 45 days it took

00:20:56.980 him 120 right yeah i mean he said he said like come on men aren't aren't you men i mean like that

00:21:03.080 description it sounds like i get from a john wayne movie you know world war ii movie it's like

00:21:06.640 it's like textbook exactly it's like sands of iwo jima you know it's an old black and white you you know

00:21:12.320 you can imagine uh him there you know exhorting these guys to to do their duty and he was basically

00:21:18.700 you know calling out the manhood of these guys uh you know you you'd rather almost get shot maimed wounded

00:21:26.340 killed than appear to be a coward these guys they looked after and they looked up to dyes and i

00:21:33.120 think they wanted to emulate him you know in that regard he was you know he was a leader but he was

00:21:38.200 you know he was a man among men not just you know in the air or on the you know on the ground but in

00:21:43.940 pretty much everything he did so you know they they they didn't want to let him down and i think that

00:21:49.480 was that was a big part of it as well i mean they they liked him so much and you know again it's not a

00:21:54.180 wasn't a fear thing it wasn't a disciplinary thing i mean it was you know they wanted to prove they

00:21:59.260 were men but they also wanted to be accepted by by ed dyes by their commanding officer and again you

00:22:06.040 know this this this wonderful uh you know warrior but a great human being who they looked up to

00:22:11.560 inspired to so what was the outcome of that battle did they win yes they they completely wiped out

00:22:17.220 you know the japanese on the beachhead with only actually one casualty which out of 20 some men was

00:22:22.680 is is unbelievable sometimes you can confuse bravery and and glory you know and all those

00:22:28.860 things and like i said you know rushing into the battle you know with little regard for your own

00:22:33.240 personal safety but but dyes he was he wanted to bring his guys home as well i think he he did think

00:22:39.400 of them as a as a family so he was he was not just a commanding officer and a friend he was he was

00:22:44.840 also kind of a father figure even though he was only some cases a few years you know older than these

00:22:49.780 guys i think he thought that hey uncle sam trusted me with their lives and uh i want to do my best to

00:22:56.600 get them you know home to their loved ones and their families he wasn't always playing rambo let's

00:23:01.020 just say that he was you know he was trying to save lives as well so what happened to dyes in his unit

00:23:06.520 after the battle of ekloma bay well after the successful landing and the conclusion uh that was the

00:23:12.660 climax of the battle of the points and uh you know medals were handed out dyes the other pilot with him

00:23:18.320 received the uh distinguished service cross which is the second highest medal for valor you can receive

00:23:23.980 in this military the enlisted men all received silver stars but for dyes the the bigger reward

00:23:29.620 was he was returned to flight duty we you know had managed to cobble together a handful of planes

00:23:34.820 and uh so he was basically put in charge of all air operations on baton and and which was running

00:23:41.240 what was called the bamboo fleet it was a small small number of aircraft a lot of them were unarmed

00:23:46.400 basically sort of training planes so he started uh he started figuring out okay you know what what

00:23:52.220 can i do with this small handful of planes how can i again be on the giving part of it instead of

00:23:57.440 taking it so he was returned to flight duty and started putting together uh more targets for the

00:24:02.440 japanese but he eventually gets taken prisoner at band dance like what how'd that happen it's that's

00:24:08.880 another part of you know sort of dyes's myth his legend is that he was ordered you know to evacuate

00:24:14.980 the philippines obviously you know high command saw that the battle was was going south obviously

00:24:21.500 you know as a skilled squadron leader uh pretty valuable to the war effort they wanted him out of

00:24:26.500 there and uh you think about it pilots don't don't do very uh you know can't really help their

00:24:32.000 country behind barbed wire so they wanted to evacuate dyes but again dyes you know he his

00:24:37.880 responsibility to his men his his sort of definition of leadership required him to stay he wasn't

00:24:44.900 going to run out on these guys and i think he felt as uh though any anybody who tried to get off you

00:24:50.460 know the baton was you know lacking in their in their duty or their their sense of manhood so

00:24:56.400 he sent out basically everybody in his place which is uh you know again the way he was very

00:25:02.940 unselfish and very uh the best way he could say it is you know he did care about others more than he

00:25:07.900 cared about himself that's how he ended up becoming stuck on stuck on baton and uh had the misfortune

00:25:13.680 of being in the infamous baton death march and and how did he fare during the during that and during

00:25:20.760 the baton death march well that the death march was actually you know as bad as as as you can imagine

00:25:27.140 as it's been portrayed in history through books and and uh stories of that nature dyes had it a

00:25:33.160 little bit worse just because he was taller than you know than the average gi you know blue eyes blonde

00:25:39.040 hair that type of thing so it it made him a target uh and plus he was an officer so he he was a pretty

00:25:45.000 big target for abuse from the japanese he took it in stride literally and figuratively uh i think he

00:25:51.040 understood that if he could deflect some of the blows from his men from wounded guys he there was that

00:25:56.520 that was no question he would do that uh again the guy never ever gave up anything ever did in his

00:26:02.360 life so i'm curious did he i guess so it sounds like he continued his leadership natural leadership

00:26:07.180 role even during the march definitely uh you know the the line that he uttered was he said you know we

00:26:13.620 were surrendered but we didn't feel licked i think there was there was there was a sense of you know

00:26:18.040 that these guys didn't lay down their arms out of any type of cowardice or fear they were you know they

00:26:23.560 were ordered to and uh so he you know even though he was no longer a warrior he was a prisoner i think

00:26:30.220 he took the same mentality as he did in combat uh again whether he was in a cockpit or out in the

00:26:35.620 jungle to survival and you know he he sort of transformed from you know that mindset to being

00:26:42.480 to being a survivor instead of a prisoner so where did the march go to what what prison camp did he go

00:26:48.220 to well the march was actually baton death march it's you know it's one of those confusing things

00:26:52.020 where you think it's just one endless line of prisoners it was more more or less a series of

00:26:56.500 marches you know by different numbers of prisoners and you know which the japanese had collected in

00:27:01.960 various groups and they they would move out in specific days and it from start to finish the march

00:27:07.100 took about 60 miles north into luzon out of baton and uh depending where you were on the road where

00:27:13.280 you were on baton when you surrendered you know these guys started trickling into the first prison camp

00:27:17.560 anywhere from three days to three weeks after the surrender and uh that first prison camp for all the

00:27:23.200 the the men captured on baton was called camp o'donnell and like i said it was it was you know

00:27:29.140 heading up into the plains of luzon out of baton gotcha so how did he like so he makes the break so

00:27:35.060 he's going back so we his gi joe status like he escapes from the camp like how did how did he pull

00:27:40.960 that off because not many people i don't think was he the only one who or would to escape from

00:27:46.520 uh a prisoner camp in the pacific yeah well he wasn't the only i mean there were there were a few

00:27:51.900 other individuals you know who who would who broke out of different camps and this is throughout

00:27:57.100 throughout the pacific throughout the far east you know the asian mainland china places like that but

00:28:02.900 he moved from camp o'donnell to cabana chuan which was basically the largest holding center of the

00:28:09.320 japanese had of american prisoners in in the pacific uh again outside of manila plains of luzon and but

00:28:16.860 he was actually transferred to daval which was a called the daval penal colony outside the city of

00:28:24.560 daval on the island of mindanao which is the southernmost island of the philippines about 600

00:28:29.300 miles south of manila and the reason he was sent there along with uh he was in a group of about 2 000

00:28:35.140 prisoners that were herded onto this merchant ship uh crowded together like cattle pretty much

00:28:40.380 because the japanese needed someone needed prisoners to work the the penal colony and that was basically

00:28:46.200 a a pre-war prison in the philippine commonwealth that was designed to be escape proof it was for all

00:28:52.040 the worst worst criminals in the philippines all the murderers rapists it was kind of like their

00:28:56.620 alcatraz or you know their devil's island and uh but it was also a plantation and so the japanese got

00:29:02.900 this bright idea well you know we have all these thousands of american prisoners of war let's let's

00:29:07.580 put them to work uh you know for for the the greater good of the japanese empire and to help the war effort

00:29:13.620 and so dais is one of those individuals selected to to go there again you know never never say die

00:29:21.020 his can-do attitude to the japanese that camp was escape proof that was you know that no one had ever

00:29:27.800 broken out of there you know in its 10 year existence but to add dais there was no such thing

00:29:32.800 as uh an escape proof prison camp or a uh you know or a mission that couldn't be accomplished

00:29:38.000 so he escapes did he escape with other people as well other men yes there were it was a group of 10

00:29:43.200 uh 10 americans two filipinos uh the two filipinos were convicts who had been incarcerated there at the

00:29:50.160 war both for murder and they signed on as guides 10 americans it was basically an all-service team

00:29:56.620 kind of an all-star team of you know dais was an air corps guy his wingman sam gracio his uh head

00:30:03.320 mechanic on baton lieutenant leo bolins plus three marines captain austin schaffner who was a uh

00:30:10.620 a manly man if there ever was one football player from the university of tennessee

00:30:14.400 uh he was a ranking marine officer there were two two lieutenants great friends of his jack hawkins and

00:30:20.880 mike dobrovich and three army personnel a coast artillery officer from who fought on corregidor

00:30:27.400 plus uh two enlisted men steve melnick was the officer major melnick and sergeants uh bob spielman

00:30:34.360 and paul marshall and a ranking officer was a navy commander by name of melvin mccoy who was a uh one of

00:30:42.900 those living geniuses who uh graduated from the naval academy with the way i understand it still has the

00:30:49.480 highest ranking in mathematics at in the academy's history so you have guys from basically every branch

00:30:55.720 of the service every part of the country and uh dais again used his team building skills to to select

00:31:02.780 this this group this this all-star team of escape artists to uh you know to to accomplish this mission

00:31:09.340 and what happened how did they make it back to the allies i mean that's you know escaping is one

00:31:14.020 thing it's you know evading that's often the hard part this is usually the part part of the interviews

00:31:19.560 where i say well buy the book or watch the documentary right right right to not you know give away the

00:31:25.400 entire story you know it's a fascinating you know story of how these guys got out uh you know basically

00:31:32.140 they walked out the front door they outsmarted the japanese uh but then again you know as one of the

00:31:38.660 the men bob spielman uh said he said you know there's no use in escaping if you're just going

00:31:43.920 to go hide under a rock somewhere you have to you know you you have you have to do it for a reason

00:31:49.000 they they had a reason they wanted to uh to break the news of the death march and the atrocities that

00:31:54.260 the japanese were committing against the prisoners of war you know to the to their government to the

00:31:58.920 rest of the world so that you know they had they had the motive uh they figured out the means

00:32:04.300 and basically you know met up with with with friendly filipinos and uh and figured out that

00:32:11.360 uh you know there was there was a resistance moving movement that uh that had formed after

00:32:15.840 the surrender and there were a lot of guys who you know who didn't give up and uh a lot of you know

00:32:20.640 local it was basically a you know a filipino army led by you know a few new american officers that

00:32:26.240 had managed to stay out of these prison camps and uh they had coordinated with general macarthur's

00:32:31.420 headquarters in australia and they were receiving you know supplies sounds you know sort of trite to

00:32:37.140 say it but he basically flagged down a ride with a submarine you know and that's that's how he that's

00:32:42.820 how he reached friendly forces you know it was him and two other individuals lieutenant commander

00:32:47.760 mccoy and major melnick who were uh you know the first three to get out of the philippines uh to meet

00:32:53.660 with macarthur in australia and they were the first ones to to bring out the word of what was going on

00:32:59.280 in the occupied philippines behind uh you know japan's bamboo curtain so to speak they they

00:33:04.620 were the first to bring out the news of the death march and the atrocities and you know what was

00:33:08.780 going on in these prison camps but here's where things get kind of crazy because you figure okay

00:33:13.560 they're telling the government officials about the bantan death march and what the japanese are doing

00:33:19.240 like the government says okay thanks but like don't tell anybody like what was going on there why

00:33:26.420 didn't the government want these guys to talk publicly about what was going on in the philippines

00:33:31.760 exactly you know it's it's remarkable because again you know you're looking back and you know and it's

00:33:37.380 historical hindsight uh you know hindsight's 2020 and you think of boy you know these guys just pulled

00:33:43.280 off probably i mean the the greatest escape of world war ii i mean i i think it uh you know i think

00:33:49.960 hollywood gives all the credit to the guys in europe you know that steve mcqueen movie you know you know the

00:33:55.720 great escape in europe but what these guys did i mean they they pulled off something that was

00:34:00.840 impossible you know they escaped from an escape proof prison camp stuck in the middle of this

00:34:05.880 giant swamp alligators and headhunters and all these things you know got off an island surrounded

00:34:11.440 by the japanese navy somehow got to friendly forces and so you think that would probably be worthy of a

00:34:17.180 ticker tape parade and uh but the government thought uh definitely and again it goes back to what we

00:34:22.720 discussed a few minutes ago the europe first policy was was the order of the day strategically and uh

00:34:29.040 the united states government keep in mind the time period of the war that this happened was it was kind

00:34:33.600 of a gray area you know of the war 1943 middle part of the war you know we had we had we had gotten

00:34:39.960 past pearl harbor you know the the the dark early days where there was nothing but you know a success in

00:34:45.760 of bitter losses you know to turning the tide in midway guadalcanal you know so we had the japanese

00:34:53.060 basically kind of holding them back at bay we had you know reached a reached a uh you know a stalemate

00:34:58.920 with them to a certain extent but in europe the invasion of europe was was being planned so you know

00:35:04.340 late 1943 you're looking at d-day in june of 44 and you know the government didn't want to upset

00:35:09.760 the strategic apple cart with uh with the invasion of europe and and everything that that had to go

00:35:15.860 into planning that in terms of you know keeping all these disparate allies britain france free french

00:35:21.400 and you know and all these other countries uh you know on board with the plan that they uh you know

00:35:26.940 they didn't want to disrupt planning for that jeopardize it because they knew that uh you know if

00:35:30.980 the american people heard what was going on you know what what the japanese were doing to their

00:35:36.460 prisoners of war it would have created such a a dramatic outcry for revenge a lot of people would

00:35:43.020 have would have begged the question wait a minute japan attacked us they snuck attack us at pearl

00:35:47.660 harbor why are we putting them on the back burner why are we concentrating on hitler and germany first

00:35:52.840 if you find out your guys are being beheaded and tortured and treated in all these despicable uh

00:35:58.160 ways i think that the american public would have you know there would have been a vociferous outcry

00:36:03.200 to uh to make a pacific first policy instead so uh when dais and these guys you know first came home

00:36:10.780 there was no there were no ticker tape parades and there was no heroes homecoming they were they

00:36:15.700 were told to shut up and keep quiet but eventually this the government released the story and that

00:36:20.380 cattle i mean that caused like it happened exactly what they thought would happen the public was just

00:36:24.040 like no we had to do something about this exactly and i think that you know and again it's i get into

00:36:29.620 this in in much much greater detail you know in my in my documentary and and uh you know on colonel

00:36:35.580 dais is there's not just you know we may think now you know i think there's a there's a lot of you

00:36:41.760 know low approval ratings for for all of our politicians but there's you know there weren't any

00:36:45.940 idiots working in the government back then they figured out well hey we need to harness uh you know

00:36:50.920 this anger and this outrage and uh they did it by basically sort of controlling the flow of the story

00:36:57.300 when it was released uh to coincide with uh war bond sales and uh you know basically sort of creating

00:37:04.840 a spark uh that again this was this was a period of the war where a lot of people uh aren't familiar

00:37:09.700 with again kind of right smack in the middle of things between these you know more well-known

00:37:15.100 historical events and uh not a lot of people are aware that the war did drag on for four years and it

00:37:22.960 wasn't a uh you know concerted uh high output high uh emotional feeling uh situation for the

00:37:31.280 duration those four years i think there was you know the initial uh you know outrage over pearl harbor

00:37:36.520 and then you know again we had you know some tide turning victories but the things that sort of

00:37:41.400 stagnated at this time uh you know people were were kind of taking it easy we weren't we weren't being

00:37:47.400 threatened with invasion on the west coast anymore you know hitler had been had been turned back in

00:37:52.120 russia and you know things were things were going in a better direction i think people started uh

00:37:57.560 getting a little complacent war plant industries people were taking days off you know they had

00:38:02.320 problems with you know hiring and and output uh people weren't buying bonds for the war i think

00:38:07.680 everyone was kind of just getting tired of you know the the endless slog of this of this fight

00:38:13.180 uh but this story the government expertly turned it around as a uh it's a pretty much an ingenious

00:38:19.320 propaganda move to to light a fire under everybody what happened to dies after this did he go back

00:38:25.200 to after he went back to america and back to the allies did he get back into battle or what did he

00:38:30.540 have did the government have other plans for him you know it's we talk about this you know gi joe and

00:38:35.900 captain america you know and he is this almost this great hollywood built or you know hollywood

00:38:42.300 dreamed up hero but there there isn't a happy ending unfortunately he uh you know he was he was

00:38:47.360 preparing he was going to get back in a cockpit he was going to take command of a squadron that was

00:38:52.040 heading over to europe flying p-38 lightnings which was at the time when you know the fastest most

00:38:57.720 heavily armed fighters that you know we had during the war and one of the most you know fearsome in

00:39:02.100 terms of you know the way the enemy uh regarded it uh you know in both theaters and uh so he was

00:39:08.260 preparing to do that fortunately he he suffered a tragic plane crash over los angeles uh burbank you

00:39:15.880 know and it's really i mean again tragic but you know you think about all the things that this guy

00:39:19.920 went through you know survived aerial combat ground combat leading the first amphibious landing of the

00:39:26.160 war uh nearly a full year as you know a prisoner of the japanese after the infamous baton death march

00:39:33.740 escaping from a prison camp being on the run for several months and you know and surviving the

00:39:40.060 jungle and all those things to die in a uh you know in a freak plane crash it almost it defies

00:39:45.780 defies uh convention no yeah it reminded me of how patent died right like he died in a in a car crash

00:39:53.360 after doing all this stuff in europe and his last words were this is a hell of a way to die

00:39:59.080 you know it's it's amazing it really was i mean he's you think about that again but and you know

00:40:05.360 plus patent's life i mean if you look back bigger picture you know he was wounded in world war one

00:40:10.540 you know and all the adventures he had and you know in terms of being you know being a uh

00:40:15.900 you know a great horseback rider and everything else you think about all the things that these guys

00:40:19.800 went through and macarthur was another one he'd been shot at everywhere you know for for close to 30

00:40:24.940 years in his military career and was always you know very daring and brave you know to sort of escape

00:40:31.200 fate you know so many times i guess maybe maybe die just just sort of uh you know was was so much

00:40:38.380 of a man he just kind of ran out of luck or ran out of ran out of his nine lives i guess you guess

00:40:42.460 you could say right so he's 27 at this time so still you know young man so as you said he did all

00:40:48.160 this stuff you kind of went through what he did in two short years you hear this like man this guy

00:40:53.140 should win the medal of honor be awarded did that happen to him no that's and that's you know

00:40:58.240 it's again another tragic aspect that made it sort of uh you know the a sad ending instead of a happy

00:41:05.640 ending uh he had several opportunities where he could have been could have been uh awarded the medal

00:41:10.740 of honor again there were things that happened over in the philippines obviously in terms of loss of

00:41:14.580 records and you know being a part of a losing battle uh you know things were you know things didn't

00:41:20.340 go the right way or break for him and you know you need people to recommend you and and all the

00:41:25.060 paperwork has to be in order and that was again you know you're you know it's a loss so you're you're

00:41:30.200 burning documents and records and and things like that so you know he was unfortunate in that regard

00:41:34.900 uh he was also i think he was he was recommended for it after for his last uh heroic act which was he

00:41:41.240 died in that plane crash but he saved the life of an innocent bystander you know a motorist who had

00:41:46.200 strayed in his landing path uh you know dies could have saved his own life and probably crashed into

00:41:51.340 this car on a street in burbank but he decided to try to uh you know save the life of this you know

00:41:57.180 unknown motorist and you know in that regard lost his uh he was recommended for the medal of honor but

00:42:03.280 uh the the motion was was denied and he received the soldier's medal which is a very prestigious award but

00:42:10.520 it's for action you know not involving heroic action not involving uh an armed enemy and you

00:42:16.440 know it took place on american soil so but uh but i guess you know in terms of talking about a happy

00:42:21.940 ending uh i'm leading a uh a movement so to speak to to have dais recommended and uh reconsidered for

00:42:30.240 the medal of honor and hopefully we can we can rectify this this past wrong which a lot of things

00:42:36.440 happened according according to uh you know fate and things out of his control but i think there

00:42:41.040 was also some resistance from uh you know members of the the president roosevelt's administration and

00:42:46.980 and other people so it was it was semi-political uh again dais was the uh you know kind of a

00:42:52.980 survivor of the alamo who shows up and wants to tell his story at a particularly bad moment you know in

00:42:59.220 time so he was you know kept quiet and uh you know kind of pinned down by uh government forces his own

00:43:05.640 government forces in that regard but uh you know hopefully we can rectify this situation and uh and

00:43:11.020 get him the medal he deserves so i mean i love to say there's so many lessons we can get from this guy

00:43:14.900 but the thing that stands out the most as i read about ed's story was just his ability to inspire

00:43:21.400 men and his like his leadership under fire i mean do you was that natural like was that something he was

00:43:27.220 just born with or did he did he consciously develop that do we know that or this is just he was just he

00:43:33.940 was just born with it i i think it's a little bit of both to be honest with you uh right i mean if you

00:43:39.080 if you look at again i think the innate part of it he was born with you know the the way to sort of

00:43:44.960 carry himself the way to you know to appear before others and to you know inspire people i think he just he

00:43:51.440 just had that natural personality where he could you know he could get people together he was he was a

00:43:57.040 team builder you know he was he was someone who was a very inspirational motivational type figure

00:44:01.620 but if you remember a small line i mentioned earlier when describing dice's background his

00:44:07.020 upbringing his personality he was a hell of an actor uh he you know he was always in in school

00:44:12.760 theatrical productions and even once he joined the air corps he still in his spare time uh acted in in

00:44:19.120 like local theater communities in shreveport and uh at barksdale air force base hamilton field

00:44:26.300 out in san francisco so uh he kept up his his acting skills in that regard so i think he was also

00:44:32.240 sort of uh aware of of how he carried himself and how he could appear and you know he could he could

00:44:37.940 put on a good show let's just say that i think if you add all those things up together and in some

00:44:42.500 that that's what made him you know a great leader but it wasn't an act it truly was him yeah well john

00:44:48.840 this has been a great conversation where can people go to learn more about the book or not the book it's

00:44:54.560 the documentary right well uh you know the documentary focuses on specifically on on ed

00:45:00.460 dies's exploits and you know and his uh you know his the way he you know the way he led people the

00:45:06.800 way he uh you know conducted his war that brief two-year period that you mentioned the book covers

00:45:11.480 the escape and you know adds in the other characters you know on a sort of a bigger picture

00:45:16.080 450 page book and then you have an hour documentary sometimes the documentary is a little bit easier for

00:45:21.200 a lot of people you know in a busy world to digest uh you can go to 4-4-43.com that's the name of the

00:45:29.640 film 4-4-43 and uh you can uh sign the medal of honor petition that we have for for colonel dais

00:45:36.860 uh we're nearing almost 30 000 signatures right now and uh so we're going to be getting that

00:45:42.140 getting that out there uh and uh sent to the folks in washington with a lot of other materials

00:45:48.020 you know for uh for this medal of honor uh request so you know all your listeners out there if you can

00:45:54.040 you can sign up for that we'd really appreciate it uh you know add your name to the list join the

00:45:58.040 mission so to speak and also the film the documentary again it's an hour long it was a official selection

00:46:03.860 of the gi film festival uh in washington and uh you can purchase dvds uh there on the same website

00:46:11.100 4-4-43.com and uh you know all the proceeds go towards helping our uh you know this mission to

00:46:18.400 to get dais recognized and to get him to get him the award that he deserves and frankly that he earned

00:46:24.280 well john lucas thank you so much your time it's been a pleasure right hey pleasure was all mine thank

00:46:28.020 you thank you very very much for helping me share this story really appreciate it my guest name is

00:46:32.140 john lucas he's the author of the book escape from davo as well as the filmmaker of the documentary

00:46:35.920 4-4-43 you can find out more information about the film at 4-4-43 you can also buy it there and

00:46:42.340 you can also find out more information about john's mission to get a dice the medal of honor there as

00:46:46.520 well you can also check out our show notes at aom.is slash dice it's d-y-e-s-s where you find links

00:46:51.380 to resources we can delve deeper into this topic well that wraps up another edition of the art of

00:47:07.740 manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice make sure to check out the art of manliness website

00:47:11.700 at artofmanliness.com if you enjoy the show if you've gotten something out of it i'd appreciate

00:47:14.900 if you give us a review on itunes or stitcher helps that a lot as always thank you for your

00:47:18.660 continued support until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay manly

The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

#408： The Incredible Forgotten Story of WWII's Ed Dyess

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