The Art of Manliness - #416： The Self-Driven Child

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00:01:18.240 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition

00:01:20.060 of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:01:22.220 Recent surveys have shown that anxiety and depression

00:01:24.560 are upped among school-aged children and teenagers,

00:01:26.840 and parents and teachers are also reporting

00:01:28.680 a decrease in motivation amongst young adults.

00:01:30.900 My guests today argue that both issues stem

00:01:32.820 from the same problem and can be solved

00:01:34.540 through the same solution.

00:01:35.740 Their names are Bill Stixrud and Ned Johnson.

00:01:37.800 Bill's a clinical neuropsychologist,

00:01:39.660 and Ned is a college test prep coach.

00:01:41.560 In their book, The Self-Driven Child,

00:01:43.120 they make the case that modern helicopter parenting

00:01:45.320 and highly structured school schedules

00:01:47.000 and highly structured after-school activities

00:01:49.260 are part of the problem of increased anxiety

00:01:51.020 and decreased motivation amongst young people.

00:01:52.980 The solution, they say, is to start letting your kids

00:01:55.340 make their own choices and experiencing

00:01:56.960 the consequences of those choices,

00:01:58.560 both the good and the bad.

00:02:00.400 Today on the show, we discuss specific ways

00:02:01.940 parents can let their kids make their own decisions

00:02:03.740 and why this doesn't mean you let your kids

00:02:05.620 do whatever they want.

00:02:06.620 With each tip, they explain the science

00:02:08.000 of why it helps increase intrinsic motivation.

00:02:10.380 Lots of actionable advice in this episode.

00:02:12.460 Even if you're not a parent,

00:02:13.740 you're going to find the advice

00:02:14.680 on developing intrinsic motivation

00:02:16.300 to actually be pretty helpful for grownups as well.

00:02:18.920 After the show's over,

00:02:19.680 check out the show notes at aom.is

00:02:21.760 slash self-driven child.

00:02:24.120 Also, if you don't know this,

00:02:25.020 we have all of our archives at the site

00:02:26.740 along with full transcripts.

00:02:28.560 If you go to artofmanliness.com slash podcast,

00:02:30.860 if you want to read all the old transcripts,

00:02:32.240 they're there.

00:02:32.780 Go check it out.

00:02:33.600 So now, Bill Stixrud, Ned Johnson,

00:02:35.640 The Self-Driven Child,

00:02:36.720 they join me now via Skype.

00:02:46.120 Bill Stixrud and Ned Johnson,

00:02:48.040 welcome to the show.

00:02:49.940 Thanks for having us.

00:02:50.800 So you guys wrote a book together,

00:02:52.300 The Self-Driven Child,

00:02:53.620 The Science and Sense of Giving Your Kids

00:02:55.180 More Control Over Their Lives.

00:02:57.060 Bill, you are a neuropsychologist.

00:02:59.740 And Ned, you founded a SAT prep test company.

00:03:05.420 I'm curious, how did you-

00:03:06.360 Test prep geek.

00:03:07.140 Yeah, test prep geek.

00:03:08.040 So I'm curious,

00:03:08.520 how did a test prep geek

00:03:09.600 and a neuropsychologist get together

00:03:11.380 to write a book about children autonomy

00:03:14.480 and children giving them a sense of control?

00:03:16.320 Well, you know, somebody introduced,

00:03:18.840 this is Bill talking,

00:03:20.460 and somebody introduced Ned and I

00:03:22.680 several years ago.

00:03:24.500 And it turned out that we really deal

00:03:26.920 with very similar issues

00:03:28.160 and that kids come to me

00:03:29.560 if they're having trouble.

00:03:31.880 And I see a huge number of kids

00:03:33.860 who have anxiety disorders,

00:03:35.340 depression, eating disorders.

00:03:37.600 And Ned sees all these kids

00:03:40.240 who are incredibly stressed out

00:03:41.860 about high school

00:03:42.600 and think that their whole future

00:03:44.540 depends on how well they do on the SAT.

00:03:48.280 And we started to talk about

00:03:50.900 what we knew about stress and motivation.

00:03:54.860 And what struck us was that

00:03:56.860 a low sense of control

00:03:59.140 is probably the most stressful thing

00:04:01.140 you can experience.

00:04:02.060 And we figured this must be related

00:04:04.160 to this incredible proliferation

00:04:07.060 of anxiety and depression

00:04:09.100 in young people.

00:04:10.520 And also, we knew that

00:04:11.560 you can't become truly self-motivated

00:04:14.600 in a healthy way

00:04:15.560 unless you have a sense of autonomy

00:04:17.320 over your own life.

00:04:18.760 So we both felt that

00:04:20.060 so much of our work

00:04:21.600 is trying to reduce the extent

00:04:23.160 to which chronic stress

00:04:24.840 screws up kids' life

00:04:26.000 and trying to help them develop

00:04:27.960 healthy motivation.

00:04:28.980 So we just started to think

00:04:30.760 this is a really powerful

00:04:32.260 organizing construct.

00:04:34.460 And my job as a test group guy

00:04:36.520 is helping kids be successful

00:04:39.180 on things that,

00:04:41.060 at least in theory,

00:04:42.200 matter a great deal

00:04:43.180 to them anyway.

00:04:44.800 You know, doing their best

00:04:45.940 on something that matters a lot to them

00:04:47.680 when they feel under a lot of pressure.

00:04:49.820 And I just had the experience

00:04:50.940 over and over

00:04:51.540 of having kids

00:04:52.260 who were really capable

00:04:53.320 go, you know,

00:04:54.260 and it performed

00:04:55.080 at a high level in practice

00:04:56.160 and then going the day of the test

00:04:58.360 and underperforming.

00:05:00.040 And if it was once or twice,

00:05:01.960 it was sort of anomalous.

00:05:02.940 But when I kept seeing it

00:05:04.460 over and over,

00:05:04.980 I tried to figure out

00:05:05.860 kind of what happened there.

00:05:07.560 And the more I started learning

00:05:09.860 about how brains work

00:05:10.720 and how kind of optimal performance,

00:05:12.780 started to pay attention

00:05:13.940 to the things

00:05:14.760 that improve brain function.

00:05:16.740 In the book,

00:05:17.320 we talk about,

00:05:18.100 you know,

00:05:18.500 there's a certain amount

00:05:19.480 of stress is good,

00:05:20.240 but too much stress

00:05:21.540 is distress, right?

00:05:23.600 And so pulling kids back

00:05:25.240 from too much pressure

00:05:26.720 to the point

00:05:27.120 where they're optimally,

00:05:28.680 you know,

00:05:29.080 they're excited,

00:05:30.220 they're into it.

00:05:32.000 And a huge number

00:05:33.000 of the tools

00:05:34.180 that I was using

00:05:35.500 was simply

00:05:36.080 trying to give kids

00:05:37.420 a greater feeling

00:05:38.540 of control

00:05:39.240 under a situation

00:05:40.640 where they otherwise

00:05:41.300 would be pretty stressed.

00:05:42.440 So, Bill,

00:05:43.000 you've said just now

00:05:44.300 that you've seen

00:05:45.260 an increase

00:05:46.000 in anxiety,

00:05:46.960 depression,

00:05:47.560 et cetera,

00:05:47.920 amongst young people.

00:05:49.440 And, you know,

00:05:50.180 as the research suggests

00:05:51.140 in which you've found

00:05:52.600 is that a lack

00:05:53.600 of sense of control

00:05:54.540 is a cause

00:05:55.900 of this stress

00:05:56.620 that leads

00:05:57.120 to this anxiety,

00:05:57.840 depression.

00:05:58.360 So why,

00:05:59.960 so to me,

00:06:00.620 that sounds like

00:06:01.320 kids feel like

00:06:03.100 they have less control

00:06:04.040 of their lives

00:06:04.660 more today

00:06:05.580 than maybe,

00:06:06.280 say,

00:06:06.400 20 years ago.

00:06:07.260 Is that a proper deduction?

00:06:11.040 Do you think

00:06:11.260 that's what's going on?

00:06:12.760 Yes, I do.

00:06:13.680 And I think that

00:06:14.240 one of the great

00:06:15.420 social scientists

00:06:16.700 in our country,

00:06:17.800 Gene Twenge

00:06:18.380 at San Diego State,

00:06:20.320 demonstrated

00:06:20.740 several years ago

00:06:21.720 that young people,

00:06:23.140 you know,

00:06:23.360 adolescents

00:06:24.040 and young adults

00:06:24.920 have increasingly

00:06:26.500 external loss

00:06:27.860 of control

00:06:28.500 compared to young people

00:06:29.860 10, 20, 30,

00:06:31.540 40 years ago.

00:06:33.000 And she correlated

00:06:35.000 that with this

00:06:35.920 increased vulnerability

00:06:36.960 to anxiety

00:06:37.620 and depression.

00:06:38.940 And a year ago,

00:06:40.560 this Gene Twenge

00:06:41.340 wrote an article

00:06:42.380 in The Atlantic,

00:06:44.360 Has the Smartphone

00:06:45.600 Destroyed a Generation?

00:06:47.580 Where she's arguing

00:06:48.360 that the smartphone

00:06:49.280 has had such a terrible

00:06:50.400 effect on young people

00:06:51.700 and people's mental health.

00:06:52.820 And from our perspective,

00:06:53.760 it's all because

00:06:54.320 social media,

00:06:55.880 social media

00:06:56.780 just is the most

00:06:57.700 externalizing thing

00:06:58.780 you can experience

00:06:59.540 where you post something

00:07:00.740 and you wait

00:07:01.320 for other people

00:07:02.120 to judge you.

00:07:03.300 And what else

00:07:03.700 do you think

00:07:03.880 is going on

00:07:04.400 besides the social media?

00:07:05.980 Because, you know,

00:07:06.360 as you guys talk about,

00:07:07.100 there's like this

00:07:07.620 increased pressure

00:07:08.300 at school,

00:07:09.260 like kids feel like,

00:07:10.240 why do you think

00:07:11.200 kids feel like

00:07:11.980 they have less control

00:07:13.120 at school,

00:07:14.140 in their own

00:07:15.000 personal lives,

00:07:16.620 et cetera,

00:07:17.260 that's causing

00:07:17.980 this increase

00:07:18.500 in anxiety

00:07:18.920 and depression

00:07:19.360 besides the social media

00:07:20.380 aspects?

00:07:20.780 Definitely,

00:07:21.000 we can totally see that.

00:07:22.460 Yeah, yeah.

00:07:22.720 Sure, sure.

00:07:23.780 Well, I mean,

00:07:24.140 there are probably

00:07:24.560 a few things

00:07:25.160 that immediately

00:07:25.780 come to mind.

00:07:26.520 One is that

00:07:27.380 our culture

00:07:29.260 has this idea

00:07:30.160 that there's

00:07:30.540 a very narrow path

00:07:32.040 to success

00:07:33.180 and that it runs

00:07:34.280 through being

00:07:34.900 a top student

00:07:35.880 and that only

00:07:36.920 top students

00:07:37.560 are going to have

00:07:38.120 successful lives.

00:07:39.540 And so for,

00:07:40.620 you know,

00:07:40.720 by definition,

00:07:41.440 only 10% of kids

00:07:42.420 are going to be

00:07:42.720 top 10% in school.

00:07:43.780 So the other 90%,

00:07:44.940 you know,

00:07:45.520 are either really stressed up

00:07:46.540 or they just

00:07:47.080 kind of give up

00:07:47.600 and say,

00:07:47.920 why even bother?

00:07:49.700 And for the 10%

00:07:51.200 who are there,

00:07:51.820 they feel like

00:07:52.260 if I'm top 10,

00:07:52.880 I need to get top 5,

00:07:53.800 I'm top 5,

00:07:54.340 I got to get top 1.

00:07:55.380 Or they're terrified

00:07:56.320 of falling out

00:07:57.080 of the winner's bracket

00:07:58.280 and think,

00:07:59.520 you know,

00:07:59.920 if I screw up

00:08:01.220 anywhere along the line,

00:08:03.180 you know,

00:08:03.500 whatever beautiful life

00:08:04.840 I imagine for myself

00:08:05.760 will simply,

00:08:06.260 will evaporate.

00:08:07.640 And,

00:08:08.080 you know,

00:08:08.500 we've just created

00:08:09.280 this funnel

00:08:09.760 where it feels like

00:08:11.360 to a lot of people

00:08:11.920 that all great things

00:08:13.860 in life,

00:08:14.320 you know,

00:08:14.480 the wonderful,

00:08:15.320 you know,

00:08:15.640 career,

00:08:16.080 the great college,

00:08:16.840 the right spouse,

00:08:17.540 the big home,

00:08:18.220 vacation home,

00:08:18.720 whatever,

00:08:19.360 all go through,

00:08:20.400 you know,

00:08:20.700 how kids are doing

00:08:21.680 academically.

00:08:22.740 And of course,

00:08:23.420 we know that

00:08:24.140 that's not true.

00:08:25.120 There's so many paths

00:08:26.380 that people can take

00:08:27.460 to find success,

00:08:28.480 but those aren't ones

00:08:29.920 that we talk about

00:08:30.720 when the drumbeat

00:08:31.480 at school is grades

00:08:32.400 and scores

00:08:32.740 and grades and scores

00:08:33.440 and grades and scores.

00:08:34.680 And then you certainly

00:08:35.540 compound that by

00:08:36.880 the effects of sleep

00:08:38.620 deprivation.

00:08:39.400 And there are a lot of,

00:08:40.020 you know,

00:08:40.160 everything from

00:08:40.640 use of technology

00:08:41.880 to just the acceleration

00:08:42.940 of life.

00:08:43.860 Where really the adequate

00:08:45.840 model of the proper

00:08:46.740 model for success

00:08:47.740 is to work hard

00:08:48.980 and rest hard.

00:08:50.460 But we feel like

00:08:51.300 we're in this culture

00:08:52.160 where we brag about

00:08:53.000 how hard we work.

00:08:53.980 We're constantly busy

00:08:55.140 and sort of competitive

00:08:57.540 martyrdom of who has

00:08:58.660 slept the most,

00:08:59.720 who has slept the least

00:09:00.480 rather.

00:09:01.460 And so you have this

00:09:01.980 just this toxic brew

00:09:03.160 of people all the time

00:09:04.320 worrying about what

00:09:05.180 other people think

00:09:05.860 about them,

00:09:06.460 of what a college

00:09:07.240 is thinking,

00:09:07.520 what do my teachers

00:09:07.980 think,

00:09:08.180 what do my grades?

00:09:09.280 And they don't have

00:09:10.220 enough rest

00:09:11.840 and enough downtime

00:09:12.520 to recover from that

00:09:14.220 and to regain energy

00:09:16.400 for the next day,

00:09:17.320 nor do they have

00:09:18.260 an opportunity

00:09:18.700 to think about

00:09:19.480 themselves as people,

00:09:21.200 you know,

00:09:21.460 as students,

00:09:22.180 as members of society

00:09:24.500 in ways that are

00:09:25.480 much broader

00:09:26.000 than just what

00:09:26.600 their GPA

00:09:27.100 and SAT scores are.

00:09:29.000 And Bill,

00:09:29.420 I mean,

00:09:29.600 you're a neuropsychologist.

00:09:30.560 One of the fascinating

00:09:31.540 parts of the book

00:09:32.160 where you guys

00:09:32.920 get into the detail

00:09:33.700 about what happens

00:09:35.180 to the brain

00:09:36.500 whenever we feel

00:09:38.120 like we're in control

00:09:38.800 or when we don't

00:09:39.580 feel like when

00:09:39.980 we're in control

00:09:40.420 or when we

00:09:42.340 pattern or live

00:09:43.660 our lives,

00:09:44.160 right,

00:09:44.300 habitually come

00:09:45.600 from this internal

00:09:46.900 locus of control

00:09:47.700 how the brain

00:09:48.340 changes or how

00:09:49.100 the brain changes

00:09:49.820 when you come

00:09:50.280 from an external

00:09:50.840 locus of control.

00:09:51.800 So can you kind

00:09:52.460 of walk us

00:09:52.940 through the big

00:09:53.680 picture of that?

00:09:54.880 Sure.

00:09:55.720 When we think

00:09:56.940 about what's

00:09:57.880 the opposite

00:09:58.540 of a healthy

00:09:59.760 sense of control,

00:10:00.940 we think about

00:10:01.460 words like helpless,

00:10:03.520 hopeless,

00:10:04.420 passive,

00:10:05.260 resigned,

00:10:06.140 and overwhelmed.

00:10:07.040 And what the

00:10:08.420 overwhelmed part

00:10:09.500 often means

00:10:10.500 is this,

00:10:11.020 that for us

00:10:12.140 to feel like

00:10:12.620 we're in our

00:10:13.040 right minds

00:10:13.820 and we aren't

00:10:14.420 highly stressed,

00:10:15.420 we can think

00:10:16.100 clearly and keep

00:10:17.160 things in perspective,

00:10:18.400 the prefrontal cortex

00:10:19.700 of the brain,

00:10:20.640 which is a fairly

00:10:22.000 recently evolved

00:10:22.820 part of the brain

00:10:23.520 that can think

00:10:24.060 logically,

00:10:25.240 plan,

00:10:25.860 organize,

00:10:26.580 put things in

00:10:27.040 perspective,

00:10:28.320 regulates the

00:10:29.200 amygdala.

00:10:30.160 It has a lot

00:10:30.900 of control

00:10:31.420 over the amygdala,

00:10:32.260 which is a very

00:10:32.760 primitive part

00:10:33.940 of the brain.

00:10:34.840 It's part of the

00:10:35.380 brain's threat

00:10:36.040 detection system.

00:10:37.300 And it's very

00:10:38.120 alert to anything

00:10:38.960 that could be

00:10:39.380 potentially threatening.

00:10:40.760 And if it perceives

00:10:41.840 potential threat,

00:10:43.360 it could be a

00:10:43.960 physical threat

00:10:44.560 or just somebody

00:10:45.200 looking askance

00:10:47.780 at you,

00:10:48.480 that it'll start

00:10:49.960 your stress response.

00:10:51.600 And so what we

00:10:52.800 want as kids

00:10:53.600 get older

00:10:54.180 is for them

00:10:55.020 to have this

00:10:55.780 experience of a

00:10:56.600 healthy regulation

00:10:58.020 of the prefrontal

00:10:58.960 cortex of the

00:11:00.220 amygdala.

00:11:01.400 And that there

00:11:02.980 are some kids

00:11:03.740 who come out

00:11:04.720 of the womb

00:11:05.340 more easily

00:11:06.560 stressed and

00:11:07.380 some from

00:11:07.940 genetic factors

00:11:08.860 or prenatal

00:11:10.240 factors.

00:11:11.440 And there are

00:11:12.160 kids who

00:11:12.660 vary a lot

00:11:14.260 in terms,

00:11:15.680 just from,

00:11:16.380 in terms of

00:11:17.460 genetically,

00:11:18.520 in terms of

00:11:19.400 how reactive

00:11:20.880 their amygdala is,

00:11:22.020 how sensitive

00:11:22.540 to threat,

00:11:23.660 how they process

00:11:24.500 the neurotransmitter

00:11:25.560 serotonin.

00:11:26.780 It really has a,

00:11:27.640 can make a big

00:11:28.900 difference in

00:11:29.540 determining how

00:11:30.560 easily stressed

00:11:31.300 they are

00:11:32.000 and how

00:11:32.380 easily

00:11:32.920 that amygdala

00:11:34.960 can basically

00:11:35.600 start to regulate

00:11:36.440 the rest of the

00:11:37.080 brain as opposed

00:11:38.220 to the prefrontal

00:11:38.980 cortex regulating

00:11:39.780 the rest of the

00:11:40.300 brain.

00:11:40.940 Gotcha.

00:11:41.380 So sort of the

00:11:42.200 big point of

00:11:42.660 your book is,

00:11:43.680 okay,

00:11:43.880 we want,

00:11:44.720 if the prefrontal

00:11:45.400 cortex is what

00:11:45.980 keeps the amygdala

00:11:46.920 in check,

00:11:48.740 if we want to

00:11:49.480 develop that

00:11:50.000 prefrontal cortex,

00:11:50.860 we have to allow

00:11:51.340 our kids to use

00:11:52.580 it and you do

00:11:53.460 that by allowing

00:11:55.040 them to make

00:11:55.400 choices,

00:11:55.920 sometimes even

00:11:56.620 dumb choices.

00:11:58.400 Yep,

00:11:59.000 that's right.

00:11:59.360 we're pretty

00:12:01.300 big fans of,

00:12:03.740 we think that

00:12:04.760 it's really

00:12:05.100 helpful,

00:12:05.940 Brett,

00:12:06.320 for parents to

00:12:07.400 think pretty

00:12:07.980 early on that

00:12:09.160 it's the kid's

00:12:09.760 life and that

00:12:11.140 often we don't

00:12:11.820 necessarily know

00:12:13.200 what's in a

00:12:13.600 kid's best

00:12:14.080 interest and

00:12:14.660 also we don't

00:12:15.340 know if a kid's

00:12:15.840 trying to make

00:12:16.240 the decision,

00:12:16.920 we don't always

00:12:17.560 know what's

00:12:18.060 best and we've

00:12:19.360 found that if we

00:12:20.120 help kids think

00:12:20.900 things through

00:12:21.660 carefully,

00:12:22.320 we say I want

00:12:23.180 you to make

00:12:23.520 an informed

00:12:24.040 decision and

00:12:25.380 we insist that

00:12:27.220 they think through

00:12:27.700 the pros and

00:12:28.240 cons with this,

00:12:28.900 they even map

00:12:29.600 out the pros

00:12:30.760 and cons of

00:12:31.320 a decision,

00:12:32.160 they can make

00:12:32.800 a good decision

00:12:33.320 for themselves

00:12:33.880 as we do

00:12:34.520 almost all the

00:12:35.740 time.

00:12:36.700 But this is

00:12:37.900 kind of

00:12:38.100 interesting because

00:12:38.940 it's about a

00:12:40.280 sense of

00:12:40.560 control,

00:12:41.400 right?

00:12:42.020 And I feel

00:12:42.300 like parents,

00:12:43.580 the reason why

00:12:44.140 they don't let

00:12:44.820 their kids,

00:12:45.380 they kind of

00:12:45.660 like put their

00:12:46.080 kids on that

00:12:46.520 path and

00:12:46.920 like encourage

00:12:47.460 them like,

00:12:47.860 okay,

00:12:47.980 grades matter,

00:12:48.760 school matter,

00:12:49.340 you need to

00:12:49.700 do this,

00:12:50.040 do that,

00:12:50.200 because like

00:12:50.500 parents want

00:12:51.540 to feel in

00:12:52.880 control,

00:12:53.460 right?

00:12:54.640 Yeah,

00:12:54.920 exactly.

00:12:55.640 But by doing

00:12:56.360 that,

00:12:56.740 like you're

00:12:57.180 hindering your

00:12:58.300 child's ability

00:12:59.040 to develop

00:12:59.660 their own

00:13:00.360 sense of

00:13:01.100 control.

00:13:01.860 Well,

00:13:01.980 that's exactly

00:13:02.500 right.

00:13:02.780 I mean,

00:13:02.860 it's a little

00:13:03.160 bit,

00:13:03.400 you know,

00:13:03.560 only one

00:13:04.000 person gets

00:13:04.520 to control

00:13:05.100 the remote

00:13:05.560 control,

00:13:06.200 right?

00:13:06.820 You know,

00:13:07.140 and people

00:13:07.640 fight for it.

00:13:08.800 And certainly

00:13:10.380 because it turns

00:13:11.680 we want to

00:13:13.180 protect our

00:13:13.760 kids,

00:13:14.020 we want them

00:13:14.440 to be happy,

00:13:15.020 we want them

00:13:15.320 to be successful,

00:13:16.580 it's hard to

00:13:18.500 ever watch your

00:13:19.160 kids stumble,

00:13:19.860 particularly if

00:13:20.260 you can see

00:13:20.780 it coming.

00:13:21.860 But, you

00:13:22.880 know,

00:13:23.140 wisdom comes

00:13:24.060 from experience

00:13:24.600 and experience

00:13:25.060 comes from

00:13:25.500 bad decisions,

00:13:26.420 right?

00:13:26.700 And we have

00:13:27.760 kids who are

00:13:28.400 absolutely

00:13:29.120 perfectionistic and

00:13:30.120 they're terrified

00:13:30.860 of making a

00:13:32.140 mistake and in

00:13:32.860 part because

00:13:33.280 they've never

00:13:33.680 made one.

00:13:34.840 And so we

00:13:35.400 want kids to

00:13:36.000 make decisions

00:13:36.700 and sometimes

00:13:38.360 they'll make

00:13:38.960 the wrong

00:13:39.280 decision because

00:13:39.880 they've made

00:13:41.140 what they

00:13:41.500 thought was

00:13:41.900 the best

00:13:42.200 decision.

00:13:43.080 But we want

00:13:43.540 to tell kids

00:13:44.200 that we have

00:13:44.580 confidence in

00:13:45.200 your ability

00:13:45.520 to make good

00:13:45.960 decisions and

00:13:46.600 that if you

00:13:47.180 make a mistake,

00:13:47.760 when you make

00:13:48.280 a mistake,

00:13:48.680 really,

00:13:49.340 that have

00:13:49.540 confidence that

00:13:50.160 you'll figure

00:13:50.600 out the best

00:13:51.960 plan from

00:13:52.640 there.

00:13:53.400 And we need

00:13:54.720 to have that

00:13:55.180 experience over

00:13:55.860 and over,

00:13:56.580 you know,

00:13:56.820 to develop,

00:13:57.640 you know,

00:13:57.940 our decision

00:13:58.560 making abilities

00:13:59.160 and to your

00:13:59.800 point to give

00:14:00.980 our prefrontal

00:14:01.660 cortex a chance

00:14:02.860 to develop.

00:14:04.060 And it's just

00:14:04.760 hard as parents

00:14:05.680 to sit there

00:14:06.220 and watch and

00:14:06.820 know that this

00:14:07.400 might be a

00:14:08.260 train wreck

00:14:08.640 coming.

00:14:09.020 But this is

00:14:09.760 why we have

00:14:10.300 an entire

00:14:10.680 chapter in

00:14:11.160 the book

00:14:11.420 about being

00:14:11.860 a non-anxious

00:14:12.600 presence,

00:14:13.680 that just

00:14:14.820 because you

00:14:15.240 can see a

00:14:15.720 problem coming

00:14:16.240 and you

00:14:16.540 can do

00:14:16.800 something about

00:14:17.260 it doesn't

00:14:17.720 necessarily mean

00:14:18.360 you want to.

00:14:19.600 You know,

00:14:19.740 experience is a

00:14:20.400 heck of a

00:14:22.120 teacher and

00:14:23.540 rarely, I

00:14:24.600 think, do

00:14:25.180 parents, much

00:14:27.520 like teachers,

00:14:28.040 much like

00:14:28.320 political leaders,

00:14:29.120 get a lot of

00:14:30.000 credit for

00:14:31.080 avoiding a

00:14:32.380 problem that

00:14:32.940 someone else

00:14:33.380 never saw

00:14:33.880 coming.

00:14:34.740 We're probably

00:14:35.160 better off

00:14:35.620 letting kids

00:14:36.240 experience some

00:14:37.140 things along

00:14:37.820 the way and

00:14:38.320 be there to

00:14:38.800 help them

00:14:39.200 if they want

00:14:39.980 it, when

00:14:40.540 they want

00:14:40.900 it, rather

00:14:41.300 than jumping

00:14:41.820 in and never

00:14:42.400 letting them

00:14:43.160 suffer anything

00:14:44.140 that might be

00:14:44.680 a bruise or

00:14:45.240 a bumper

00:14:45.600 skin need.

00:14:46.560 And Brad,

00:14:47.280 I'll add

00:14:47.940 that we

00:14:49.380 think that

00:14:49.940 I tested a

00:14:51.740 kid of a

00:14:52.060 humorous years

00:14:52.920 ago who said

00:14:54.120 we really

00:14:54.500 shouldn't call

00:14:55.060 it raising

00:14:55.440 children, we

00:14:56.300 should call

00:14:56.660 it lowering

00:14:57.200 parents because

00:14:58.540 it's hard and

00:14:59.680 we think that

00:15:00.060 one of the

00:15:00.300 things that

00:15:00.560 makes it

00:15:00.820 particularly

00:15:01.100 hard is the

00:15:02.040 idea that

00:15:02.500 somehow we're

00:15:03.700 responsible as

00:15:04.580 parents to

00:15:05.420 make sure our

00:15:05.940 kids' lives

00:15:06.660 turn out a

00:15:07.180 certain way,

00:15:07.960 that we'll

00:15:08.480 be able to

00:15:08.880 make them

00:15:09.240 do this or

00:15:09.720 that.

00:15:10.460 And we

00:15:10.620 think that

00:15:11.340 our experience

00:15:12.160 is that it's

00:15:12.940 really liberating

00:15:14.200 for parents to

00:15:15.280 really realize I

00:15:16.060 really can't make

00:15:16.880 my kid do

00:15:17.600 stuff and I

00:15:18.520 don't always

00:15:18.840 know what's

00:15:19.160 in his best

00:15:19.620 interest and

00:15:20.760 if I

00:15:21.320 communicate to

00:15:21.980 my kid I

00:15:22.880 have confidence

00:15:23.600 in your ability

00:15:24.300 to make

00:15:24.540 decisions about

00:15:25.140 your own life

00:15:25.680 and I want

00:15:26.040 you to have

00:15:26.340 tons of

00:15:26.760 practice before

00:15:27.480 I send you

00:15:27.840 off to

00:15:28.100 college.

00:15:29.100 It goes

00:15:29.580 well.

00:15:30.740 The kids

00:15:31.320 want their

00:15:31.760 life to

00:15:32.160 work and

00:15:32.560 when you

00:15:32.760 entrust them

00:15:33.260 to make

00:15:33.540 decisions,

00:15:34.520 in our

00:15:34.860 experience they

00:15:35.340 almost always

00:15:35.980 make at least

00:15:36.800 a good

00:15:37.000 decision as

00:15:37.600 we can

00:15:37.880 make.

00:15:38.540 Yeah, it's

00:15:38.820 funny because

00:15:39.160 we've had a

00:15:39.900 lot of

00:15:40.140 podcast guests

00:15:41.540 come on and

00:15:42.220 talk about

00:15:42.840 historical figures

00:15:44.560 and what

00:15:45.340 always strikes

00:15:45.860 me is how

00:15:47.260 parenting style

00:15:48.080 has changed

00:15:48.900 because you

00:15:50.300 have some of

00:15:50.620 these guys,

00:15:51.280 take a Jack

00:15:51.960 London.

00:15:52.420 We had a

00:15:53.020 guy, Earl

00:15:53.760 Labor, he's a

00:15:54.440 Jack London

00:15:54.860 biographer.

00:15:55.920 You hear what

00:15:56.960 Jack London did

00:15:58.020 as a 14-year-old

00:15:59.420 or a 15-year-old.

00:16:00.100 He was like

00:16:00.480 an oyster pirate

00:16:01.600 in San

00:16:02.180 Francisco,

00:16:03.680 just stealing

00:16:04.640 oysters,

00:16:05.280 oysters from

00:16:06.300 other oysters.

00:16:08.440 They make a

00:16:09.680 great college

00:16:10.240 essay.

00:16:10.840 Right.

00:16:11.640 But his

00:16:12.040 parents were

00:16:13.040 like, yeah,

00:16:13.700 that's fine.

00:16:14.600 They probably

00:16:15.280 didn't know what

00:16:15.700 he was doing,

00:16:16.540 but they just

00:16:17.380 like, whatever.

00:16:18.140 Now we have

00:16:18.700 this thing that

00:16:19.100 would never

00:16:20.220 happen, a

00:16:21.000 15-year-old

00:16:21.540 being an

00:16:21.860 oyster pirate

00:16:22.440 in America.

00:16:24.280 Right.

00:16:24.820 We have

00:16:25.380 this idea.

00:16:28.080 We think

00:16:28.880 that part of

00:16:30.180 the reason that

00:16:30.580 kids have so

00:16:31.140 little control

00:16:31.720 of their lives

00:16:32.400 is they

00:16:32.900 don't play

00:16:33.360 very much

00:16:33.880 anymore.

00:16:34.760 And a

00:16:35.160 couple of

00:16:35.480 generations

00:16:36.060 ago, kids

00:16:36.980 have spent

00:16:37.400 all weekend

00:16:38.260 outside.

00:16:39.140 Their parents

00:16:39.520 had no idea

00:16:40.140 where they

00:16:40.540 were, what

00:16:40.860 they were

00:16:41.020 doing, playing

00:16:41.520 with their

00:16:41.820 friends.

00:16:42.860 And they

00:16:43.060 were completely

00:16:43.500 charged, in

00:16:44.240 charge of

00:16:44.600 their life.

00:16:45.500 And just

00:16:46.480 not very long

00:16:47.760 ago, many

00:16:48.760 high school

00:16:49.140 kids, if not

00:16:49.680 most, had

00:16:50.460 part-time jobs

00:16:51.460 and they're

00:16:52.140 working things

00:16:53.340 or they had

00:16:54.280 a lot of

00:16:54.720 unsupervised

00:16:55.660 time that

00:16:56.900 doesn't really

00:16:57.340 exist so much

00:16:57.920 anymore.

00:16:58.740 And what's

00:16:59.060 interesting, I

00:16:59.880 mean, as I

00:17:00.580 was reading

00:17:00.840 this, I

00:17:01.560 think the

00:17:02.340 most powerful

00:17:02.760 idea I got

00:17:03.200 from this is

00:17:03.560 that in order

00:17:05.800 to be successful

00:17:06.440 as an adult,

00:17:07.080 you have to

00:17:07.380 have this

00:17:07.600 developed

00:17:07.940 prefrontal

00:17:08.440 cortex where

00:17:08.940 you can

00:17:09.180 control those

00:17:10.980 impulses and

00:17:12.360 that anxiety,

00:17:13.540 et cetera, that

00:17:13.920 comes up when

00:17:14.520 you're not

00:17:14.920 sure.

00:17:15.360 But in

00:17:15.960 order to do

00:17:16.260 that, you

00:17:16.460 have to

00:17:16.720 exercise it

00:17:17.440 and use

00:17:17.780 it.

00:17:18.320 What's funny

00:17:18.640 how we

00:17:18.920 parent these

00:17:19.600 days is we're

00:17:21.560 very controlling

00:17:22.120 over our kids,

00:17:22.560 make sure they're

00:17:22.980 safe, make sure

00:17:23.760 they're happy,

00:17:24.320 make sure they have

00:17:24.580 their great

00:17:24.800 experience as a

00:17:25.320 kid.

00:17:25.640 And then when

00:17:25.880 they hit

00:17:26.200 18, they're

00:17:26.740 like, all

00:17:27.540 right, kid,

00:17:28.200 get out there

00:17:29.020 and make your

00:17:30.020 own choices

00:17:30.500 and do adult

00:17:31.260 things.

00:17:32.300 I know you've

00:17:32.840 never done this

00:17:33.340 before, but

00:17:33.840 you'll figure it

00:17:34.500 out.

00:17:35.860 And then the

00:17:36.920 kids come to

00:17:38.040 you, Bill,

00:17:38.740 with college

00:17:40.040 kids, anxious,

00:17:41.280 depressed, et

00:17:41.940 cetera.

00:17:42.600 Oh, part of

00:17:44.020 the reason that

00:17:44.940 we focus at the

00:17:47.860 end of the

00:17:48.180 book on this

00:17:49.480 idea of who's

00:17:50.100 ready for

00:17:50.440 college is we've

00:17:51.720 both seen so

00:17:53.020 many kids who

00:17:54.280 have gone off to

00:17:55.360 college and

00:17:56.500 failed in their

00:17:57.760 first year and

00:17:58.720 just not been

00:17:59.400 successful at

00:18:00.100 all.

00:18:00.900 And most of

00:18:01.340 those kids

00:18:01.820 really had very

00:18:02.540 little experience

00:18:03.360 in running their

00:18:04.180 own lives before

00:18:05.180 they went to

00:18:05.620 college.

00:18:07.140 And we want

00:18:08.540 kids to have

00:18:09.140 tons of

00:18:09.660 experience.

00:18:10.640 I tell parents,

00:18:12.140 don't send your

00:18:12.600 kids to college

00:18:13.380 unless he's had

00:18:14.260 six months.

00:18:15.320 He's demonstrated

00:18:16.120 for six months

00:18:17.020 that he can

00:18:17.760 pretty much run

00:18:18.460 his own life

00:18:19.080 because that's

00:18:19.440 what he's going

00:18:19.720 to have to do

00:18:20.020 in college.

00:18:20.780 Right.

00:18:21.120 So let's talk

00:18:22.200 about how we

00:18:23.000 parent in order

00:18:23.820 to help this.

00:18:25.360 So you're not

00:18:26.760 advocating,

00:18:27.860 just so you're

00:18:28.160 clear, you want

00:18:28.640 kids to make

00:18:29.040 choices, but

00:18:29.540 you're not

00:18:29.840 telling them,

00:18:30.540 you know, a

00:18:30.860 12-year-old,

00:18:32.280 you're going to

00:18:32.680 just do whatever

00:18:33.860 you want.

00:18:34.600 I mean, how,

00:18:35.320 because when

00:18:35.740 parents hear like,

00:18:36.560 oh, yeah, like

00:18:37.000 kids make choices,

00:18:37.680 they're like,

00:18:37.920 well, what are we

00:18:39.840 talking about here?

00:18:40.720 Are they going to,

00:18:42.000 we're going to let

00:18:42.400 them do whatever

00:18:43.000 they want or are

00:18:44.260 we going to put

00:18:44.760 constraints or limits?

00:18:46.480 How, what does

00:18:47.100 this look like?

00:18:47.940 Well, you know,

00:18:48.440 in a workplace,

00:18:50.080 everyone has

00:18:51.100 autonomy with this

00:18:51.780 job, but you

00:18:52.200 don't get to do

00:18:52.700 whatever you're

00:18:53.080 on, well, please,

00:18:53.860 right?

00:18:54.080 You know, people

00:18:54.420 have to stay in

00:18:55.020 their own lanes a

00:18:55.780 little bit, you

00:18:56.900 know, and as

00:18:57.600 what kids are, the

00:18:59.160 choice that the

00:18:59.740 kids can appropriately

00:19:00.480 have when they're

00:19:01.180 three or four might

00:19:02.640 be, do you want to

00:19:03.360 wear this shirt?

00:19:04.100 Do you want to

00:19:04.380 wear that shirt?

00:19:05.080 Do you want to

00:19:05.220 play this game or

00:19:05.880 that game?

00:19:06.540 You know, do you

00:19:06.840 want to have, read

00:19:07.640 that story or, you

00:19:08.580 know, at that time

00:19:09.400 for after dinner or

00:19:10.160 whatever?

00:19:10.940 You know, when

00:19:11.460 they're 12, you

00:19:12.340 know, their choice

00:19:12.940 is about, well, you

00:19:13.900 know, what do you

00:19:14.340 want to be doing?

00:19:15.020 Do you want to play

00:19:15.740 soccer?

00:19:16.100 Do you want to play

00:19:16.520 baseball?

00:19:17.140 You know, how do

00:19:18.400 you want, what do

00:19:19.140 you want to be

00:19:19.540 doing on the weekend?

00:19:21.200 But it isn't, it

00:19:22.200 isn't the idea that a

00:19:23.440 12-year-old gets to

00:19:24.300 run the whole, run

00:19:25.400 the whole household.

00:19:26.440 And that's really an

00:19:26.960 abrogation of parental

00:19:28.580 responsibility.

00:19:29.640 It's just that there

00:19:30.580 are, there are tons of

00:19:31.720 things that kids can

00:19:33.380 and really should do

00:19:34.720 that we as parents want

00:19:36.720 to make those decisions

00:19:37.460 for them simply

00:19:38.440 because we're more,

00:19:39.700 we're better at it

00:19:40.640 because we have more

00:19:41.120 experience doing it,

00:19:41.920 right?

00:19:42.060 It's so much quicker

00:19:42.860 for us to do, to make

00:19:44.060 that judgment or that

00:19:44.960 decision for them.

00:19:46.440 And then, and it's

00:19:47.120 just, it's a mistake

00:19:47.920 because anything that

00:19:48.720 you want someone to

00:19:49.580 do well, you have to

00:19:50.800 be tolerant of him

00:19:51.660 doing it poorly first

00:19:52.920 because that's how we

00:19:54.220 learn.

00:19:55.860 And, Brett, there's at

00:19:57.560 least 60 years of

00:19:58.680 research on parenting

00:20:00.340 styles and, and just

00:20:02.240 conclusively, the, the,

00:20:04.340 the most effective

00:20:05.120 parenting style is

00:20:06.360 authoritative as

00:20:08.080 opposed to

00:20:08.700 authoritarian or

00:20:09.900 laissez-faire.

00:20:10.560 And authoritative

00:20:11.700 parents means that

00:20:12.620 we, we, we set

00:20:13.400 limits and we, but

00:20:14.880 we negotiate more

00:20:15.800 with kids and we, we

00:20:16.960 teach, treat kids

00:20:17.840 respectfully, like they

00:20:19.160 have a brain in their

00:20:19.820 head and we value

00:20:21.500 their opinions and we

00:20:22.800 want them to make

00:20:23.460 decisions, but it's

00:20:25.100 not laissez-faire, it's

00:20:26.200 not anything, go,

00:20:27.020 we're very much

00:20:27.680 involved in their

00:20:28.340 life and certainly

00:20:30.280 laissez-faire parenting

00:20:31.380 where you're kind of

00:20:32.100 on your own kid is

00:20:33.500 terrible and that's

00:20:35.160 not at all what we're

00:20:36.020 suggesting.

00:20:36.660 We want parents to be

00:20:37.740 very intimately involved

00:20:39.140 in their kids' lives.

00:20:40.600 We just don't want

00:20:41.140 them to think that

00:20:41.680 they're supposed to

00:20:42.200 control everything.

00:20:43.540 Yeah, I like how you

00:20:44.080 described parenting

00:20:44.780 should, you should see

00:20:46.000 yourself as a consultant,

00:20:47.660 which I thought was an

00:20:48.880 interesting way to think

00:20:50.180 about it.

00:20:51.300 Yeah, very much.

00:20:51.860 I mean, we have this

00:20:52.420 story in the book about

00:20:53.680 my, my wife was, my

00:20:54.960 wife is an educator,

00:20:56.160 was helping my son when

00:20:57.440 he was in middle school

00:20:58.060 with, with some

00:20:58.820 assignment and then she

00:20:59.900 says, well, why didn't

00:21:00.460 you hand this in or do

00:21:01.640 whatever it was?

00:21:02.800 And he sort of froze and,

00:21:03.920 and, and, and, and

00:21:04.860 looked at her and said,

00:21:05.660 well, because you didn't

00:21:06.200 remind me.

00:21:07.540 And I'm like, hold

00:21:08.460 a, hold a time up

00:21:09.340 hitting in people and

00:21:10.180 that sort of jump in the

00:21:11.000 middle of this and say,

00:21:11.640 look, kiddo, you don't

00:21:12.960 throw your mom under the

00:21:13.780 bus.

00:21:14.260 You, she's not responsible

00:21:15.700 for your doing this work

00:21:16.920 because it's your work.

00:21:18.140 You know, all appearances

00:21:19.000 on the contrary, this is

00:21:19.980 your life.

00:21:20.400 You're responsible for

00:21:21.180 doing this.

00:21:21.720 And I looked at her and I

00:21:23.220 said, look, he has every

00:21:24.520 reason to expect that you

00:21:25.640 remind him because she

00:21:26.980 always have.

00:21:27.880 And my wife is like a lot

00:21:29.300 of them, just super

00:21:30.200 organized.

00:21:30.660 She can run, you know, my

00:21:31.720 kid's life, my life, Bill's

00:21:32.940 life, probably your life.

00:21:33.840 If she, if you, you could

00:21:34.720 give her the award for the

00:21:35.680 time.

00:21:36.140 And, but just because she

00:21:37.600 can, doesn't mean that she

00:21:38.540 should.

00:21:39.460 And so we just really try to

00:21:41.160 change and said, well, you

00:21:42.280 know, would you like help

00:21:43.540 with that?

00:21:44.120 And rather than we just

00:21:45.540 change the language from

00:21:46.540 shouldn't you be doing

00:21:47.520 your homework?

00:21:48.080 Shouldn't you do this?

00:21:48.760 Why aren't you doing that

00:21:49.720 too?

00:21:50.340 Would you like some help?

00:21:51.280 Would you like me to look

00:21:52.140 at that?

00:21:52.500 Anything I can do?

00:21:53.800 No, dad, I got it.

00:21:54.940 Okay, great.

00:21:55.640 Well, I've never had the

00:21:57.260 experience of giving people

00:21:58.460 advice that they've just

00:21:59.380 told me they don't want and

00:22:00.860 having that go well.

00:22:02.100 But by constantly saying,

00:22:03.300 anything I can do to help

00:22:04.240 tonight?

00:22:04.600 No, no, I got it.

00:22:05.360 He knows that I'm always

00:22:06.300 there.

00:22:06.520 He knows that my wife is

00:22:07.320 always there.

00:22:07.860 And sometimes he asks for

00:22:09.240 advice and sometimes he

00:22:10.280 doesn't.

00:22:11.240 And what, what happened?

00:22:11.980 We tell this story in a,

00:22:13.700 we talk to schools.

00:22:14.920 I had, we had the

00:22:15.380 experience about a month

00:22:16.140 ago.

00:22:16.900 My wife and I were out for

00:22:17.800 a walk.

00:22:18.200 My kid is in, he's a

00:22:19.140 sophomore now, had a

00:22:20.140 school dance and he got

00:22:21.760 invited to that party

00:22:22.640 that's after the dance

00:22:23.500 and the cool thing is my

00:22:24.840 kid, like his son, dad is

00:22:25.840 a little geeky.

00:22:26.380 So this was a new

00:22:26.920 experience for him.

00:22:27.940 And we're out for a walk

00:22:29.000 and he says, Hey dad, I

00:22:29.860 got a question.

00:22:31.060 And I said, yeah, kiddo,

00:22:31.800 what's your question?

00:22:32.980 He said, so I'm going to

00:22:33.840 that party after the dance.

00:22:35.260 I said, yeah.

00:22:36.280 And he said, what do I do

00:22:37.100 if people are drinking

00:22:37.880 alcohol there?

00:22:39.680 And inside I'm doing this

00:22:40.780 little victory dance.

00:22:41.480 Like I'm a great dad.

00:22:42.320 My kid just asked me

00:22:43.040 about drinking.

00:22:43.900 Right.

00:22:44.060 But I tried to play it

00:22:44.940 cool, but I'm convinced

00:22:46.320 that if I had had the last

00:22:47.940 four years since middle

00:22:49.200 school being on him

00:22:50.080 about every single

00:22:50.760 homework assignment, he

00:22:52.120 never would have brought

00:22:53.280 that kind of question up

00:22:54.360 to me.

00:22:55.180 I want to be a consultant

00:22:56.360 to him.

00:22:56.980 To Bill's point, I want to

00:22:57.780 be an authority so that

00:22:59.220 when he has real questions,

00:23:00.420 he asks my advice.

00:23:02.200 But it's a respectful way.

00:23:03.900 It's an asking way.

00:23:05.020 It's on my supporting him,

00:23:06.760 not my descriptive

00:23:07.600 jamming it down his

00:23:08.400 throat and making him

00:23:09.200 feel like someone else

00:23:09.960 is in charge of his life.

00:23:11.820 So this means, this sort

00:23:13.880 of consultant approach to

00:23:14.920 parenting, let's take

00:23:15.740 homework as an example

00:23:16.720 or school as an example.

00:23:18.320 This could mean, you

00:23:19.900 know, if we're trying

00:23:20.580 to put the onus on the

00:23:21.500 child to make, take

00:23:23.120 control of that part

00:23:23.880 of his life, this could

00:23:25.520 mean that he doesn't do

00:23:26.400 his homework or he

00:23:27.180 forgets or he doesn't

00:23:29.520 really engage in school.

00:23:31.440 How do you as a parent

00:23:33.360 maintain that sort of

00:23:35.160 unanxious presence when

00:23:37.420 you're seeing, oh my

00:23:37.940 gosh, my kid's got a 1.5

00:23:40.220 GPA and he's about to

00:23:41.680 get expelled for academic.

00:23:43.420 Yeah.

00:23:43.540 So how do you manage

00:23:45.160 that part?

00:23:45.680 So I wrote about this

00:23:48.400 idea of the parent

00:23:49.320 as a consultant for the

00:23:50.700 first time 30 years ago

00:23:52.060 and it was a response to

00:23:54.120 in my clinical practice

00:23:55.260 seeing family after family

00:23:57.080 who would say stuff like,

00:23:58.720 God, I dread dinner time

00:23:59.940 because after dinner, it's

00:24:01.460 two and a half hours of

00:24:02.480 World War III trying to get

00:24:03.640 my kid to do his homework.

00:24:05.560 And it just seemed like

00:24:07.440 such a waste of life.

00:24:09.280 And also that what I

00:24:11.160 noticed is that if parents

00:24:13.120 spent 80 units of energy

00:24:14.900 trying to get the kids

00:24:16.100 to do his homework, the

00:24:16.700 kids spent 20.

00:24:17.880 And I thought this isn't

00:24:18.800 helping anybody.

00:24:20.220 And so what I suggested

00:24:21.360 was that you say to your

00:24:22.820 kid, this is the title of

00:24:25.060 the second chapter of our

00:24:26.060 book, you say to your

00:24:27.260 kid, I love you too much

00:24:28.900 to fight with you about

00:24:29.820 your schoolwork.

00:24:31.000 And I'm willing to help

00:24:31.780 you any way I can.

00:24:32.940 I'm willing to get a

00:24:33.600 tutor if we need a tutor.

00:24:34.680 I'm willing to support you

00:24:35.460 a thousand percent.

00:24:36.700 But I'm not willing to act

00:24:37.800 like it's my responsibility.

00:24:39.060 I'm not willing to fight

00:24:39.940 with you all the time.

00:24:40.860 You're the most precious

00:24:41.540 thing in the universe to me.

00:24:42.380 Why would I want to have

00:24:43.140 all this stress and

00:24:43.900 tension about your

00:24:44.680 frigging homework?

00:24:46.300 You know, and our

00:24:47.000 experience is that when

00:24:48.220 you change the energy and

00:24:49.640 you say that I love you,

00:24:51.040 I support you, but I'm

00:24:52.340 not going to try to force

00:24:53.280 with you.

00:24:53.640 I'm not going to fight

00:24:54.440 with you about this.

00:24:56.180 That kids, for the most

00:24:57.360 part, they don't

00:24:57.860 necessarily are.

00:24:58.900 They aren't necessarily

00:24:59.520 Johnny on the spot the

00:25:00.800 next day.

00:25:01.960 But before very long,

00:25:03.820 they start to get the

00:25:04.600 idea.

00:25:05.260 And just as Ned's kid,

00:25:06.540 they start to ask their

00:25:07.380 kids, their parents for

00:25:08.800 help.

00:25:09.940 And but I have two kids

00:25:11.660 who got PhDs and neither

00:25:12.980 one of them had, I never

00:25:14.360 knew about their

00:25:14.880 assignments unless they

00:25:15.660 asked me.

00:25:16.380 I always took this, this

00:25:17.560 I'm willing to help

00:25:18.620 anything I can do

00:25:19.960 attitude.

00:25:21.460 And it just works.

00:25:23.560 And with families over the

00:25:24.720 years that have done this,

00:25:26.200 it just works.

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00:27:34.560 show.

00:27:35.300 What about, say, I

00:27:36.840 mean, one thing parents

00:27:38.520 worry about is, like, I

00:27:39.620 want to help my child

00:27:40.660 develop a solid work

00:27:41.860 ethic.

00:27:42.280 I want them to be

00:27:42.840 contributing members to

00:27:43.700 the household, right?

00:27:44.820 Yep.

00:27:45.200 What if you have kids

00:27:45.940 that just, like, eh,

00:27:47.160 they're not cleaning the

00:27:48.020 room, they're not,

00:27:49.000 because, like, you did

00:27:49.800 that for them, right, for

00:27:51.440 most of, so how do

00:27:53.080 you, what can parents do

00:27:54.160 to shift that?

00:27:55.840 So, kids have that

00:27:56.800 intrinsic motivation to

00:27:57.980 help out and do things

00:27:59.120 around the house.

00:27:59.720 So, I think that, as

00:28:03.720 much as possible, we're

00:28:05.520 big fans of family

00:28:08.120 meetings, or other

00:28:09.340 people call it

00:28:09.920 collaborative problem

00:28:10.780 solving.

00:28:11.260 In our book, we call it

00:28:12.000 collaborative problem

00:28:12.760 solving.

00:28:13.840 Whereas, because you

00:28:15.680 can't make a kid

00:28:16.920 clean up his room, I

00:28:18.580 mean, all they have to

00:28:19.180 do is just go spread

00:28:20.540 ego on the floor, and

00:28:21.540 you can't make him

00:28:22.380 clean it up.

00:28:23.340 And I think making

00:28:24.080 peace with that and not

00:28:25.160 trying to force is

00:28:26.920 helpful.

00:28:27.880 But, I think that we

00:28:29.320 talk about it, we

00:28:30.180 talk about it, and we

00:28:31.480 bring it up and say, I

00:28:32.640 know that either it's

00:28:34.020 boring to you, or that

00:28:35.480 it's stressful to you to

00:28:36.440 clean up your room.

00:28:37.520 But it's really stressful

00:28:38.580 to me when I see it at

00:28:39.720 this level of

00:28:40.240 disorganization.

00:28:41.980 And I think that as

00:28:43.740 kids get older,

00:28:44.480 particularly, I think we

00:28:45.720 want to be respectful.

00:28:47.200 And various, as

00:28:48.300 adults, we have

00:28:50.220 differing levels of

00:28:51.800 need for neatness and

00:28:53.920 tidiness.

00:28:55.080 And I think that as

00:28:57.640 parents, my own

00:28:58.520 daughter, who was

00:28:59.500 always an outstanding

00:29:00.460 student, her room

00:29:01.900 looked like a

00:29:02.780 schizophrenics room in

00:29:04.100 high school.

00:29:04.720 And I'd help her clean

00:29:05.460 her up once a month

00:29:06.220 because she wanted me

00:29:06.800 to help her.

00:29:07.680 But I think that

00:29:08.660 fighting over that

00:29:09.680 kind of thing, cleaning

00:29:10.780 up your room, is

00:29:12.240 usually not very

00:29:13.160 effective.

00:29:14.100 Although, we want

00:29:16.560 kids to contribute to

00:29:17.460 their families.

00:29:18.420 And that's why we

00:29:19.100 think that having

00:29:19.600 family meetings where

00:29:20.480 we talk about what

00:29:21.620 chores do you want to

00:29:22.480 do?

00:29:22.720 You map out, here's

00:29:23.540 what needs to be done

00:29:24.200 in the family.

00:29:24.660 What do you want

00:29:25.560 to do?

00:29:26.120 We're asking, getting

00:29:27.120 kids some choice about

00:29:28.900 how they contribute to

00:29:29.700 the family tends to be

00:29:30.920 pretty effective.

00:29:32.640 There's an argument to

00:29:33.560 be made that everyone

00:29:34.760 deserves some space of

00:29:38.060 his own, right?

00:29:39.120 That your kid's room is

00:29:40.220 your kid's room.

00:29:41.100 And so, he can't leave

00:29:43.440 his sneakers on the

00:29:44.980 kitchen table or she

00:29:46.000 can't have her art

00:29:47.140 spa strewn all over the

00:29:48.260 kitchen floor because

00:29:49.520 these are common

00:29:50.280 spaces.

00:29:51.560 And you can have,

00:29:53.040 again, with a family

00:29:53.800 meaning, come to some

00:29:54.600 agreement about what

00:29:55.660 we're going to clean

00:29:56.160 this up every night or

00:29:56.960 we're going to clean

00:29:57.240 this up once a week or

00:29:58.200 what the kind of

00:30:00.220 negotiated rules are

00:30:01.220 there.

00:30:01.880 But within his own

00:30:02.700 room, probably deserves

00:30:04.000 a little more latitude.

00:30:06.480 In part because I've

00:30:07.480 just, it's not been my

00:30:08.660 experience that

00:30:09.220 Harvey and I kids over

00:30:10.060 and over will make

00:30:11.280 them intrinsically want

00:30:12.480 to do that.

00:30:13.460 I mean, I certainly, I

00:30:14.480 think most of your

00:30:15.240 listeners, if they

00:30:16.040 reflect on it, there's

00:30:16.880 a pretty darn good

00:30:18.000 chance that the level

00:30:20.180 of cleanliness of their

00:30:21.260 rooms as teenagers was

00:30:22.920 a good deal below what

00:30:24.260 they're hoping their

00:30:25.240 kids would do now.

00:30:26.580 And part of that is,

00:30:27.320 you know, development

00:30:28.000 of prefrontal cortex.

00:30:29.200 You know, as it gets

00:30:31.020 more mature, it's just

00:30:32.440 intrinsically a little

00:30:33.140 bit easier to be

00:30:34.400 organized and to keep

00:30:35.200 things organized.

00:30:36.720 As we've been talking

00:30:37.420 about this idea of

00:30:38.320 sense of control, right,

00:30:39.600 a lack of sense of

00:30:40.760 control, feeling

00:30:41.440 helpless, causing

00:30:43.120 anxiety, depression,

00:30:44.620 et cetera.

00:30:45.520 But like, is there too

00:30:46.160 much like of a good

00:30:47.260 thing?

00:30:47.520 Like, is it, I mean, I

00:30:48.340 can imagine like if you

00:30:49.220 feel like you are in

00:30:50.080 control of your life,

00:30:51.320 that could become

00:30:52.260 unhealthy because you

00:30:53.060 think, okay, anything

00:30:54.900 that happens to me, I

00:30:55.860 am responsible for.

00:30:56.880 If I work really hard

00:30:57.980 and I do all these

00:30:59.240 things to get into

00:30:59.820 good college, I don't

00:31:01.580 get into good college

00:31:02.140 because you might not,

00:31:02.840 because it might be

00:31:03.320 something, you know,

00:31:04.500 nothing to do with

00:31:05.700 you, just like they

00:31:06.380 ran out of space.

00:31:07.860 You're absolutely

00:31:08.420 right.

00:31:08.780 I mean, you know, if

00:31:09.620 someone has, you

00:31:11.760 know, if there's an

00:31:13.080 illness, you don't say,

00:31:14.120 well, maybe if you

00:31:14.620 got in there two weeks

00:31:15.440 early, you say there

00:31:16.540 was nothing you could

00:31:17.160 do about it.

00:31:17.720 You know, the cancer

00:31:18.500 was coming, right?

00:31:20.220 Or if someone has a

00:31:20.980 car accident, it hurts

00:31:21.980 to say, you know, it

00:31:22.580 was just, it was just

00:31:23.580 bad luck.

00:31:24.160 You're just in the

00:31:24.600 wrong place at the

00:31:25.280 wrong time, right?

00:31:26.360 We don't, we don't

00:31:27.040 blame things for bad

00:31:28.100 things.

00:31:28.340 We don't blame people

00:31:29.100 when bad things

00:31:29.720 happen because it's

00:31:31.000 just, it's, it's, it's

00:31:31.960 too unkind and it's,

00:31:32.900 and it's, it's not,

00:31:33.740 it's not, it's not

00:31:34.640 fair and it's not

00:31:35.120 true.

00:31:35.580 And the same thing

00:31:36.440 with, with college

00:31:37.160 admissions and the

00:31:37.900 people have this idea

00:31:38.680 if I do everything

00:31:39.300 perfectly that I can

00:31:40.180 get into the college

00:31:40.960 of my dreams or go

00:31:41.700 to an Ivy school

00:31:42.420 or whatever, but

00:31:43.600 there's so much

00:31:45.020 uncertainty and

00:31:46.260 unfairness built into

00:31:47.500 the system.

00:31:48.680 And, you know, and,

00:31:49.780 and so, I mean, I,

00:31:50.520 this is the work that

00:31:51.220 I do on and on.

00:31:52.080 I said, a lot of

00:31:53.200 teenagers have this

00:31:54.100 idea that college

00:31:55.740 admissions is made by

00:31:56.880 these sort of gray

00:31:57.660 haired wise people

00:31:58.720 who've done this

00:31:59.260 forever.

00:31:59.620 And they're just,

00:32:00.420 and they, they can

00:32:01.040 sort of, you know,

00:32:01.900 like Joe, they, or

00:32:02.960 they, you know, King

00:32:03.960 Solomon, they can sit

00:32:04.600 there and see it.

00:32:05.160 They can rather, they

00:32:05.720 can see everything and

00:32:06.460 know exactly what the

00:32:07.700 right decision to make

00:32:08.740 is.

00:32:09.120 But the reality is

00:32:10.260 these are human

00:32:10.860 beings and many of

00:32:11.900 them 25 years old.

00:32:13.000 And it depends

00:32:13.540 where it was your

00:32:14.240 essay read the third

00:32:15.540 one they read or the

00:32:16.560 223rd one that they

00:32:18.300 read.

00:32:19.060 And, you know,

00:32:19.940 people, people make

00:32:20.940 mistakes, people get

00:32:21.740 tired.

00:32:22.400 And so the idea, so we

00:32:24.420 simply say that, yeah,

00:32:25.240 you're not going to get

00:32:26.000 into a good school

00:32:26.820 unless you, unless you

00:32:27.640 show that you're going

00:32:28.220 to be a successful

00:32:28.860 learner there, but you

00:32:30.100 can be a highly

00:32:30.720 successful learner.

00:32:31.540 And it's just the luck

00:32:32.240 of the day that you

00:32:32.900 didn't, you didn't get

00:32:33.580 into that, that the

00:32:35.260 first choice school.

00:32:36.040 But the good news is

00:32:36.860 there are a lot of

00:32:37.420 great schools that

00:32:38.080 could be, you know,

00:32:38.880 you can be just as

00:32:39.620 successful, you know,

00:32:40.820 going to your third

00:32:41.400 choice school as you

00:32:41.980 can do your first

00:32:42.580 choice school.

00:32:43.040 And I'll add to that

00:32:45.560 what we emphasize in

00:32:47.360 the book is that it's

00:32:48.420 not, a sense of

00:32:49.520 control doesn't mean

00:32:50.960 that I'm supposed to

00:32:52.260 be able to control

00:32:53.020 everything.

00:32:54.300 What it means is that

00:32:56.260 I have this, I'm not

00:32:57.160 passive, I'm not

00:32:58.260 resigned, I'm not just

00:32:59.740 a pawn in the universe

00:33:00.940 that I can make

00:33:01.940 decisions, I can direct

00:33:03.080 my own life, and

00:33:04.640 certainly all of us,

00:33:06.140 a part of wisdom is

00:33:07.140 the kind of serenity

00:33:07.960 prayer idea that I

00:33:09.420 want to understand, be

00:33:10.540 able to handle the

00:33:12.520 things I can control

00:33:13.340 and be able to make

00:33:15.580 peace with the things

00:33:16.300 I can't.

00:33:17.080 And I think that's a

00:33:17.720 huge part of what we

00:33:19.020 want to help our kids

00:33:19.720 develop is that wisdom

00:33:21.440 about what I have

00:33:22.980 control over and what

00:33:23.720 I don't.

00:33:24.500 Right, and you can't,

00:33:25.140 they can't learn that

00:33:26.000 without them making

00:33:27.240 choices or seeing

00:33:29.000 firsthand like their

00:33:29.880 actions, even though

00:33:31.460 they have my control

00:33:32.100 of what they do, they

00:33:33.020 don't have control over

00:33:34.120 the results or the

00:33:34.920 outcome, oftentimes.

00:33:36.140 Exactly, yeah.

00:33:37.100 It's part of why sports

00:33:37.940 are so great.

00:33:38.560 I mean, you win some

00:33:39.380 and you lose some, and

00:33:40.180 sometimes you can

00:33:40.880 affect the outcome, and

00:33:41.880 sometimes you can't,

00:33:43.900 you know, you're one of

00:33:44.560 many players, or the

00:33:45.400 ref made a bad decision,

00:33:46.540 or the, you know, ball

00:33:47.820 took a screw, screwball

00:33:48.920 bounce, and it's just,

00:33:49.900 you know, that's part of

00:33:51.460 life, and we, you know,

00:33:52.360 we get up, we dust

00:33:53.460 ourselves off, we go on

00:33:54.520 and look for the next

00:33:55.080 adventure.

00:33:55.700 All right, so we've been

00:33:56.260 talking about things we

00:33:57.080 can do to help our

00:33:58.900 children develop their

00:33:59.940 prefrontal cortex, this

00:34:00.920 ability to have, act on

00:34:03.320 their own, be autonomous,

00:34:04.600 figure out what, you

00:34:05.960 know, what things they can

00:34:07.300 control, what things they

00:34:08.120 don't have control over,

00:34:09.160 but you also talk about

00:34:10.240 other things that we need

00:34:11.140 to do as well, and one

00:34:12.580 was interesting, is

00:34:13.400 downtime.

00:34:14.440 Why is downtime so

00:34:15.780 important for kids, and

00:34:17.360 what should that

00:34:17.840 downtime look like?

00:34:19.680 Well, we talk about

00:34:20.740 really, not just

00:34:22.060 downtime, but radical

00:34:23.060 digital to downtime, and

00:34:24.400 it's the idea that the

00:34:25.280 world is so fast-paced

00:34:27.060 today, and people are

00:34:28.340 busy so much of the

00:34:29.320 while, and then

00:34:30.220 oftentimes when they,

00:34:31.540 when they're not

00:34:32.100 busily, busy doing

00:34:33.180 something inactive, we

00:34:34.080 pick up our phones, our

00:34:35.040 tablet, our computer, and

00:34:37.000 we find something, something

00:34:38.760 to constantly engage

00:34:40.000 ourselves, and it's a

00:34:41.980 real problem, part

00:34:43.420 because there's a brain

00:34:45.100 network called the

00:34:45.840 default mode network, and

00:34:47.860 it's a whole system, it's

00:34:49.800 a bunch of parts of our

00:34:50.700 brain, and when, and it

00:34:53.060 activates when we're not

00:34:54.340 actively doing anything

00:34:56.460 else, and the default

00:34:58.020 mode network, when it

00:34:59.280 engages, we have, it's

00:35:01.640 perspective taken, we

00:35:02.660 think about ourselves, and

00:35:04.140 our place in the world, we

00:35:05.180 think about our past, we

00:35:06.140 think about our future,

00:35:07.000 it helps us develop a

00:35:08.640 coherent sense of

00:35:09.480 ourselves as a human

00:35:10.600 being, it helps develop

00:35:11.700 empathy, and it's

00:35:13.580 something that's really

00:35:14.200 implicated in the work of

00:35:15.240 Gene Twenge thinks that

00:35:16.440 part of this constant

00:35:17.780 increase in this, in this

00:35:19.480 really spike between the

00:35:20.460 last decade of anxiety

00:35:23.040 and depression and

00:35:23.940 narcissism is that we

00:35:25.880 don't have enough time

00:35:27.220 alone with our own

00:35:28.480 thoughts just to kind of

00:35:29.460 think stuff through, and

00:35:31.160 particularly as an

00:35:32.040 adolescent, a huge part

00:35:34.440 of adolescence is trying

00:35:35.520 to figure out who am I,

00:35:37.000 who am I trying to

00:35:37.700 become, what do I think

00:35:39.120 about the world, my

00:35:39.880 parents have told me this

00:35:41.400 or told me that, and I've

00:35:42.240 learned this from church or

00:35:43.080 from school or whatever, but

00:35:44.560 really what do I think

00:35:45.700 about this, and it's

00:35:47.340 incredibly valuable work,

00:35:49.080 again, to kind of develop a

00:35:50.500 sense of who you are, and

00:35:52.120 we worry a lot about kids

00:35:53.780 that they just don't have

00:35:55.960 enough time where they can

00:35:56.840 really be bored and left

00:35:58.420 alone with their own

00:35:59.140 thoughts, and so we talk

00:36:00.520 about the importance of

00:36:01.820 building in time when you

00:36:03.360 aren't doing anything, you

00:36:04.340 have daydreaming, you

00:36:06.020 know, and just space out

00:36:07.440 when you can meditate, and

00:36:09.680 just, and it's different

00:36:11.540 from ruminating, right, it's

00:36:12.980 not going over and over and

00:36:14.180 sort of beating yourself up,

00:36:15.380 but it's much more sort of

00:36:16.300 letting your thoughts

00:36:17.640 wander.

00:36:19.740 And we have a chapter

00:36:21.260 called Radical Downtime

00:36:22.720 where we talk about the

00:36:24.220 mind-wandering and

00:36:27.320 meditation, which we think

00:36:28.660 are when you're awake, two

00:36:30.180 really ways of recharging

00:36:32.480 your brain associated with

00:36:34.200 creativity, problem-solving,

00:36:36.380 with lowering stress, and

00:36:38.340 also we have a chapter on

00:36:39.440 the third kind of Radical

00:36:40.700 Downtime, on sleep, and

00:36:43.320 arguably, if we want kids

00:36:45.860 to, if kids want to perform

00:36:47.640 better, and we want our

00:36:48.620 kids to perform better, the

00:36:49.680 single most thing that we

00:36:51.020 could do, the single most

00:36:51.840 important thing we can do,

00:36:52.940 is to figure out a way to

00:36:54.580 help them get more sleep.

00:36:56.360 And when the people started

00:36:57.640 to study the sleep

00:36:59.500 deprivation in

00:37:00.840 adolescence, in the

00:37:02.280 mid-90s, continuing

00:37:03.540 into the early 2000s,

00:37:05.320 it was devastating how

00:37:07.500 sleep-deprived young

00:37:09.140 people were.

00:37:10.120 And it's worse now that

00:37:11.700 90% of kids who have

00:37:13.700 phones are sleeping with

00:37:14.720 them.

00:37:15.420 So how do we, you know,

00:37:17.040 in order to encourage

00:37:17.840 this, we want to encourage

00:37:19.200 this radical downtime in our

00:37:20.740 children, but at the same

00:37:22.480 time, we want to act as

00:37:23.960 consultants, right?

00:37:25.280 You know, sort of your call

00:37:26.000 parenting.

00:37:26.560 How do we, I mean, is it

00:37:27.960 nudge is the right word?

00:37:29.080 Kids to, you know, put

00:37:31.200 away the devices?

00:37:33.160 Like, do we set limits?

00:37:34.300 Do we use sort of that

00:37:34.980 authoritative parenting

00:37:37.000 style by setting limits?

00:37:38.240 And then within those

00:37:39.240 limits, the kids can

00:37:40.040 decide what they do?

00:37:41.080 I think that's, I think

00:37:41.860 that's right.

00:37:42.540 I think that's right.

00:37:43.300 And the honest, and a

00:37:44.480 big part of this is, is

00:37:45.900 modeling this as well.

00:37:48.240 I mean, you know, parents

00:37:49.640 are over-consuming

00:37:52.020 technology nearly as much

00:37:53.740 as teenagers are.

00:37:55.020 It's just that our brains

00:37:55.740 are a little bit more

00:37:56.940 hardwired than is the

00:37:58.900 developing teen brain.

00:38:00.560 But I think it's good for

00:38:02.380 everyone's brain, and it's

00:38:03.780 certainly good for our

00:38:04.460 relationships to have

00:38:05.700 times when we're fully,

00:38:08.440 fully paying attention to

00:38:10.580 the thing that we're doing

00:38:11.360 or paying attention to one

00:38:12.440 another, and we don't have

00:38:13.920 the distracting effects of

00:38:15.380 technology.

00:38:16.160 So, I mean, I've sat in with

00:38:17.820 my family, and what are

00:38:19.020 rules?

00:38:19.380 Well, there are no digital

00:38:21.040 devices at mealtimes.

00:38:23.600 You know, you don't have the

00:38:24.480 kitchen table, right?

00:38:26.260 For me, cell phones charge

00:38:27.980 in the kitchen.

00:38:29.200 Every single student I work

00:38:32.000 with ends up at some point

00:38:33.180 getting the version of this

00:38:34.120 lecture where kids will come

00:38:35.780 in, they didn't do well on

00:38:36.620 this, you know, they did a

00:38:37.300 practice test and hadn't

00:38:38.160 gotten well.

00:38:38.580 I said, well, tell me what

00:38:39.300 was going on, and, you

00:38:40.780 know, and I did it at home.

00:38:42.080 Were you distracted?

00:38:42.740 No, I wasn't distracted.

00:38:43.640 Well, how did you time

00:38:44.320 yourself?

00:38:44.680 Was your mom...

00:38:45.200 Well, I was using my

00:38:45.940 cell phone, but I had to

00:38:48.080 turn...

00:38:48.260 I wasn't looking at it.

00:38:49.600 And there's a study in the

00:38:51.160 book where they found that

00:38:52.980 three-second interruptions

00:38:54.240 would double people's

00:38:55.060 error rates.

00:38:55.960 And that's just the time

00:38:56.680 of looking at a text, not

00:38:57.680 even typing a response,

00:38:58.780 just being interrupted with

00:38:59.680 a ping.

00:39:01.360 And so I said, and so I

00:39:02.220 then go on my lecture to

00:39:03.140 the kids about why you're

00:39:04.000 going to take, you know,

00:39:04.780 you're going to do your

00:39:05.340 homework without a cell

00:39:06.220 phone around.

00:39:07.400 And then I always ask,

00:39:08.840 and where does your cell

00:39:09.680 phone sleep at night?

00:39:12.560 What do you mean?

00:39:13.640 Well, when you go to bed,

00:39:14.640 where's your cell phone?

00:39:16.060 Well, by my bedside

00:39:17.480 table, why do you ask?

00:39:18.720 Then I launch into

00:39:19.480 literature of how

00:39:20.160 disruptive it is to sleep

00:39:21.800 and it causes

00:39:23.760 anxiety and pressure.

00:39:26.100 And then the Hail Mary

00:39:27.220 of a desk teenager is

00:39:28.480 always, but I use it

00:39:30.280 for my alarm clock.

00:39:31.720 And then I smile and I

00:39:32.960 look at them and say,

00:39:33.580 well, that's great, but

00:39:34.300 let's be honest.

00:39:35.020 I think you use your

00:39:35.720 parents for your alarm

00:39:36.440 clock.

00:39:37.220 And you're telling me

00:39:38.440 that, you know, your

00:39:39.180 parents can pay whatever

00:39:40.720 it costs, you know,

00:39:41.460 a thousand bucks now

00:39:42.140 for a cell phone, you

00:39:43.380 know, a hundred bucks

00:39:43.860 a month for, I found

00:39:45.000 a hundred bucks a month

00:39:45.980 for the data usage of

00:39:47.300 it, but no one can come

00:39:48.100 with 20 bucks for a

00:39:49.000 proper alarm clock.

00:39:49.760 So I buy a kid an alarm

00:39:51.800 clock every week just

00:39:54.400 because here's, here's

00:39:55.260 your alarm clock now.

00:39:56.120 And I'm going to tell

00:39:56.800 your parents, you now

00:39:57.440 have an alarm clock.

00:39:58.120 What's your favorite

00:39:58.440 color, by the way, and

00:39:59.680 your cell phone should

00:40:00.660 charge in the kitchen.

00:40:01.740 So the problem with

00:40:03.080 these technologies is

00:40:04.140 they are by design

00:40:05.260 incredibly immersive,

00:40:07.180 incredibly addicted,

00:40:08.660 and it's just really

00:40:09.980 hard to put them down.

00:40:11.060 That's again, true for

00:40:11.940 teens and for adults.

00:40:13.460 And so we think that

00:40:14.140 the best way to do this

00:40:15.060 is just to have rules

00:40:16.020 that after nine o'clock,

00:40:17.200 you put your cell phone

00:40:18.060 in the kitchen to charge

00:40:18.940 on Sunday mornings,

00:40:20.200 nobody has a cell phone

00:40:21.160 where we're spending

00:40:22.120 time together.

00:40:22.660 We're going for a walk.

00:40:23.560 We're having brunch.

00:40:24.260 We're doing whatever.

00:40:25.120 And just to build in

00:40:26.460 times in our week and

00:40:27.720 in our, in our day and

00:40:28.640 in our week, when we do

00:40:30.000 things without any

00:40:31.160 technology at all.

00:40:32.620 And I'll just add that,

00:40:33.880 that family rules work

00:40:36.160 great.

00:40:36.880 So setting, working as

00:40:38.860 kind of democratically to

00:40:40.060 set up rules in the

00:40:40.680 family.

00:40:41.000 And the challenge that

00:40:42.020 many parents have is

00:40:43.160 when kids break the

00:40:43.960 rules.

00:40:44.360 And I think that

00:40:45.720 what we, our experience

00:40:46.660 is, is that especially

00:40:48.500 with teenagers with

00:40:49.640 technology, if teenagers

00:40:51.640 kind of are sneaking

00:40:53.100 their phone into the

00:40:53.940 room or they're using

00:40:55.420 that they're, they're

00:40:56.300 playing Fortnite many

00:40:58.440 more hours than we

00:40:59.180 agree on, it's healthy

00:41:00.680 for them.

00:41:01.420 Then we, we, it's very

00:41:03.600 hard to set limits on

00:41:05.640 them.

00:41:05.900 We oftentimes, because

00:41:06.720 they're more

00:41:07.020 technologically savvy than

00:41:08.240 we are.

00:41:09.200 And so what we talk

00:41:09.820 about in the book, we

00:41:10.720 come back to this

00:41:11.360 collaborative problem

00:41:12.300 solving.

00:41:12.680 We, we, we, we use

00:41:14.720 our authority where we

00:41:15.740 can in the sense of, of

00:41:17.220 I, I can't in good

00:41:18.540 conscience, I can't, I

00:41:19.560 feel like I'm a

00:41:20.360 terrible parent if I'm

00:41:22.340 paying for your cell

00:41:23.540 phone usage and you're

00:41:24.820 sleeping with it at

00:41:25.620 night.

00:41:26.160 There's all this

00:41:26.960 research that suggests

00:41:27.960 that if it's not

00:41:28.640 turned on, if it drops

00:41:30.020 your sleep, if you

00:41:31.060 have a piece of

00:41:31.620 pottery that looks like

00:41:32.480 a cell phone, it

00:41:33.700 disrupts your sleep.

00:41:34.940 And, and I, I can't

00:41:36.220 as, I can't in good

00:41:37.080 conscience pay, pay for

00:41:39.040 your phone charges.

00:41:40.140 So if you want to get

00:41:40.860 a part-time job and

00:41:42.320 pay for it, I can

00:41:43.400 live with that, but I

00:41:44.400 can't do it.

00:41:45.260 So if you want to

00:41:46.240 keep your phone and

00:41:46.860 want me to pay for

00:41:47.560 it, it charges in the

00:41:48.540 kitchen.

00:41:49.800 And, but with, with

00:41:51.020 adolescents, with

00:41:51.820 virtually any kind of

00:41:52.820 issue, we, we more

00:41:54.200 and more take this

00:41:55.300 collaborative problem

00:41:56.280 solving approach where

00:41:58.180 we start with, we

00:41:59.480 try to start with

00:42:00.160 empathy about how

00:42:01.180 much they love their

00:42:01.860 phone or that they

00:42:02.540 love their, that

00:42:03.400 fortnight or social

00:42:04.500 media.

00:42:04.980 And also our

00:42:05.880 concern that we can't

00:42:06.880 be good parents if we

00:42:08.060 let them use it

00:42:08.800 endlessly.

00:42:09.640 And we, we agree

00:42:10.660 on some, we, we, we

00:42:11.740 negotiate and then we

00:42:12.760 renegotiate limits.

00:42:14.880 So you mentioned

00:42:15.600 Bill earlier in the,

00:42:16.740 our conversation, how

00:42:18.300 every kid's different.

00:42:19.140 So some kids, they're

00:42:20.680 pretty resilient, just

00:42:21.700 out of the womb, right?

00:42:22.920 But other kids, they're

00:42:23.600 a little more, you

00:42:24.420 know, sensitive, touchy,

00:42:26.060 I guess, is the

00:42:26.460 example.

00:42:27.280 What happened, like, how

00:42:28.820 should your parenting

00:42:29.880 or how should this

00:42:31.320 adjust?

00:42:32.100 Like how we're acting

00:42:33.280 as a parent consultant?

00:42:34.480 If your kid say is a

00:42:36.340 little more, I don't

00:42:37.100 know, on the high

00:42:38.240 strong is the right

00:42:39.340 word.

00:42:40.820 I mean, are there, are

00:42:42.020 the things you should

00:42:42.600 probably be more aware

00:42:43.820 of and consider when

00:42:45.400 you're, when you're

00:42:46.140 working or interacting

00:42:46.960 with them?

00:42:47.440 Yes.

00:42:47.780 I think that, that

00:42:49.460 many kids are from

00:42:50.680 either genetic or

00:42:51.640 prenatal reasons, as

00:42:52.820 I said before, they

00:42:53.880 come out of the womb

00:42:54.580 where they're just more

00:42:55.240 easily stressed, you

00:42:56.320 know, that they, they

00:42:57.220 look like they have a

00:42:57.960 very active amygdala,

00:42:59.360 reactive amygdala.

00:43:00.980 And, and from the time

00:43:02.480 they're little, I mean,

00:43:03.180 we, we, we, we

00:43:03.880 adapted them.

00:43:04.660 We have to kind of

00:43:05.600 adapt to really

00:43:06.400 sensitive kids just as

00:43:07.520 infants, you know,

00:43:08.540 they, they have

00:43:09.240 trouble sleeping.

00:43:10.060 We get, we get, we

00:43:11.040 get good at figuring

00:43:11.760 out what they need,

00:43:12.900 what they're telling

00:43:13.660 us they need.

00:43:14.960 And I think the

00:43:16.140 thing that's hardest

00:43:16.920 if, if, if kids tend

00:43:18.420 to be on that

00:43:18.960 anxious side is

00:43:20.540 that, that our

00:43:21.720 urge as parents is

00:43:23.000 to protect them, is

00:43:24.360 to make, is to

00:43:25.240 try to, to make

00:43:26.520 sure that that they

00:43:27.480 don't experience too

00:43:28.500 much anxiety.

00:43:29.220 And so that we, we

00:43:30.200 tend to protect

00:43:31.180 them and, and

00:43:32.420 enable them to avoid

00:43:33.880 things that they're

00:43:34.940 anxious about.

00:43:35.760 And all the

00:43:36.940 research on anxiety

00:43:38.040 over the last

00:43:38.620 several years and

00:43:39.400 treating anxiety has

00:43:41.100 indicated that, that

00:43:42.440 what we, the best

00:43:43.820 way to overcome

00:43:44.860 anxiety is to face

00:43:46.380 your fears.

00:43:47.640 And I think that this

00:43:48.340 may be the hardest

00:43:49.140 thing for parents of

00:43:50.760 kids who are

00:43:51.300 sensitive and easily

00:43:52.600 stressed and, and

00:43:54.160 the, the, the major

00:43:55.200 manifestation of

00:43:56.020 anxiety is avoidance.

00:43:57.720 We tend to avoid the

00:43:58.560 things that would, that

00:43:59.160 make us anxious.

00:44:00.100 And I think that so

00:44:01.160 that, that part of, we

00:44:02.220 talk, talk about in our

00:44:03.680 chapter of being a

00:44:04.560 non-anxious presence

00:44:05.700 is, is that as, as

00:44:07.460 much as we can manage

00:44:08.520 our own anxiety, that

00:44:10.180 really helps kids, but

00:44:12.460 in part because it

00:44:13.240 helps us be, be, be

00:44:14.400 encouraging and

00:44:15.180 allowing them to

00:44:16.980 manage stressful

00:44:17.700 situations themselves,

00:44:19.300 not, not letting them

00:44:20.420 avoid and just being,

00:44:22.360 being assertive about

00:44:23.660 letting them experience

00:44:25.140 things that are

00:44:25.640 stressful because that's

00:44:27.120 how you become

00:44:27.720 resilient.

00:44:28.560 You, you handle a

00:44:29.900 stressful situation on

00:44:31.240 your own with support

00:44:32.620 as necessary, but

00:44:33.800 that's how kids become

00:44:34.720 resilient.

00:44:35.340 That's how they

00:44:35.960 develop high stress

00:44:37.160 tolerance.

00:44:38.040 Yeah, I think that

00:44:38.360 was a really important

00:44:39.880 takeaway.

00:44:40.380 A lot of this is just

00:44:41.160 modeling, right?

00:44:42.280 What, how you want your

00:44:43.080 kids to behave.

00:44:43.700 And so something that

00:44:44.540 I've done, I try to do

00:44:45.900 with my kids at least, is

00:44:46.900 when I'm aware of a

00:44:47.700 situation that's causing

00:44:48.440 me a lot of stress, I

00:44:50.360 kind of walk them

00:44:51.080 through, okay, this is

00:44:52.100 how I initially responded.

00:44:53.760 That wasn't good.

00:44:54.680 So I did this.

00:44:56.480 I'm hoping that sort of

00:44:57.780 sinks in.

00:44:58.480 I don't know yet, but

00:45:00.140 that's kind of something

00:45:00.880 I've done.

00:45:01.760 Well, you know, I

00:45:02.180 used to do the same

00:45:02.960 thing with my kids,

00:45:03.860 Brett, and after a

00:45:05.700 while, they'd say, my

00:45:08.040 daughter would say, I

00:45:08.940 don't want to hear that

00:45:09.440 psychological crap

00:45:10.260 anymore.

00:45:11.240 But the next week, I'd

00:45:14.180 overhear her talking

00:45:15.180 with a friend on the

00:45:15.760 phone and telling the

00:45:16.720 friend exactly what

00:45:17.600 she heard me model.

00:45:20.300 You know, that

00:45:20.840 exactly.

00:45:21.460 I just, I think it's

00:45:22.600 so important.

00:45:23.480 It helps kids so much

00:45:24.660 by thinking out loud in

00:45:26.740 terms of coming up with

00:45:27.900 a plan.

00:45:28.820 Or as you're talking

00:45:29.600 about, when we handle

00:45:30.340 stressful situations,

00:45:31.360 why don't we, if we're

00:45:32.520 good at, if we're good

00:45:33.520 at putting things in a

00:45:34.280 positive respect, seeing

00:45:36.000 things and not letting

00:45:37.360 things overwhelm us, let's

00:45:38.860 teach kids how we do it.

00:45:40.540 And one of the best ways

00:45:41.280 to do it is simply think

00:45:42.640 out loud.

00:45:43.380 Right.

00:45:43.900 Well, Ned, did you have

00:45:45.100 something you wanted to add

00:45:45.820 to that?

00:45:46.140 Yeah, I was going to say,

00:45:46.940 I mean, I have a daughter

00:45:48.440 who's one of these kids

00:45:50.700 that Bill describes who's,

00:45:51.960 she's more, a more

00:45:53.560 sensitive disposition.

00:45:55.260 She's anxious.

00:45:56.480 And you see that in

00:45:58.640 rigid, with her rigidity

00:46:00.060 and, you know, to Bill's

00:46:02.100 point, you know, with,

00:46:03.480 with, with defective

00:46:04.500 therapy, even with

00:46:05.340 this pretty good CBT, we,

00:46:06.580 we, we, we try to help

00:46:07.940 kids face things that are,

00:46:10.140 that are challenging to

00:46:11.200 them or stressful to them,

00:46:12.540 but do it in a measured

00:46:13.420 dose.

00:46:14.360 And the challenges I think

00:46:15.720 with, with a lot of kids

00:46:17.100 is it's either all or

00:46:18.100 nothing.

00:46:18.440 And as parents, you kind

00:46:19.720 of want to throw kids in

00:46:20.580 the deep in the pool and

00:46:21.360 say, you just, you just

00:46:22.220 got to face this.

00:46:23.100 But, but if we are less

00:46:25.660 anxious ourselves, we can,

00:46:27.020 we can negotiate and help

00:46:29.000 them figure out a way to

00:46:29.820 face this and really, you

00:46:32.360 know, kind of problem

00:46:33.100 solve or, or be, or be

00:46:34.880 sort of entrepreneurial

00:46:35.600 about, well, it's not,

00:46:37.200 it's not all or nothing.

00:46:38.500 What's that, what's that

00:46:39.620 middle ground?

00:46:40.500 I mean, my daughter, my

00:46:41.020 daughter just got a dog

00:46:42.160 and the first couple of

00:46:44.140 days were pretty rocky

00:46:45.300 and she's like, I can't

00:46:46.120 have this dog.

00:46:46.680 I don't want to do it.

00:46:47.380 I just want to give her

00:46:48.000 back.

00:46:48.480 Oh my goodness.

00:46:49.660 And what it turned out is

00:46:51.040 that there were some

00:46:51.580 specific things there that,

00:46:52.940 that made her really

00:46:54.040 concerned.

00:46:54.460 Like she, she, she didn't

00:46:55.940 want to have to get up at

00:46:56.860 six 30 in the morning to

00:46:58.800 walk the dog.

00:47:00.520 You know, was that

00:47:01.520 something mom and dad

00:47:02.660 were up anyway?

00:47:03.520 Could they just let the

00:47:04.380 dog out for five minutes

00:47:06.040 to pee?

00:47:06.940 And then she would take

00:47:07.980 it on a longer walk 45

00:47:09.300 minutes later.

00:47:10.360 Well, that's a perfectly

00:47:11.020 reasonable thing.

00:47:11.720 I wasn't prepared to take

00:47:12.780 the dog for 45 minute

00:47:13.800 walk, but to let the dog

00:47:14.740 out for two minutes.

00:47:15.600 Sure.

00:47:16.400 You know, and, and so

00:47:17.280 when, when, when kids

00:47:18.520 are fearful, they're,

00:47:20.480 they will get very, they'll

00:47:22.020 get, they can be very

00:47:23.160 rigid and very defensive

00:47:24.240 and no, no, no, I

00:47:25.020 simply won't do it.

00:47:26.220 And, and oftentimes

00:47:27.520 there's, it's not the

00:47:28.700 whole thing that they're

00:47:29.520 afraid of.

00:47:30.060 It's a, it's a piece of

00:47:31.240 it that they don't have a

00:47:32.740 solution to.

00:47:33.740 And by talking it through

00:47:35.160 with them, we can figure

00:47:35.980 out this, we can get, get

00:47:37.160 to the root of what's the

00:47:38.300 real thing that they can't

00:47:40.260 find a solution to.

00:47:41.140 And we can help them find

00:47:42.000 and then they can, and

00:47:42.800 then they can face that

00:47:43.840 develop, develop some

00:47:45.300 resilience by, by getting

00:47:46.420 through with some support

00:47:47.960 and a little bit of

00:47:48.780 discomfort, something that

00:47:50.080 otherwise would be

00:47:50.740 overwhelming.

00:47:51.160 Well, Bill, Ned, this

00:47:52.800 has been a great

00:47:53.280 conversation.

00:47:53.960 Where can people go to

00:47:54.700 learn more about the book

00:47:56.100 and your work?

00:47:56.840 It's the self-driven

00:47:57.720 child.com.

00:47:59.120 Self-driven child.com.

00:48:00.920 Yeah.

00:48:01.260 Yeah.

00:48:01.900 That's easy.

00:48:02.540 I love it.

00:48:02.920 Yeah.

00:48:03.380 Yeah.

00:48:03.540 That's fantastic.

00:48:04.260 Yeah.

00:48:04.380 Most people don't have, I

00:48:05.840 love how it's just so

00:48:06.460 easy about that.

00:48:07.720 Yeah.

00:48:08.200 Well, Bill, Ned, thank

00:48:09.640 you so much for your time.

00:48:10.280 It's been an absolute

00:48:10.900 pleasure.

00:48:11.720 Oh, our pleasure is

00:48:12.980 completely.

00:48:14.040 Thanks so much.

00:48:15.100 My guests today were

00:48:15.780 William Stixrud and

00:48:16.940 Ned Johnson.

00:48:17.500 They're the authors of the

00:48:18.420 book, The Self-Driven

00:48:19.460 Child.

00:48:19.840 It's available on

00:48:20.420 amazon.com and bookstores

00:48:21.720 everywhere.

00:48:22.300 You can also find out more

00:48:23.140 information about the book

00:48:23.920 at theselfdrivenchild.com.

00:48:25.900 Also check out our show

00:48:26.660 notes at aom.is

00:48:27.960 slash self-driven child

00:48:29.560 where you can find links to

00:48:30.400 resources where you delve

00:48:31.360 deeper into this topic.

00:48:32.360 Well, that wraps up another

00:48:45.700 edition of the Art of

00:48:46.720 Manliness podcast.

00:48:47.680 For more manly tips and

00:48:48.560 advice, make sure to check out

00:48:49.620 the Art of Manliness website at

00:48:50.960 artofmanliness.com.

00:48:51.980 And if you enjoy the podcast and

00:48:53.320 you've gotten something out of

00:48:54.280 it, I'd appreciate it if you

00:48:55.420 take a minute to get this

00:48:56.680 review on iTunes or Stitcher.

00:48:57.900 It helps out a lot.

00:48:58.640 And if you've done that

00:48:59.200 already, thank you so much.

00:49:00.360 Please share the show with a

00:49:01.520 friend or family member who

00:49:02.780 you think would get something

00:49:03.840 out of it.

00:49:04.380 As always, thank you for your

00:49:05.900 continued support.

00:49:06.680 Until next time, this is Brett

00:49:07.600 McKay telling you to stay

00:49:08.780 manly.

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The Art of Manliness - June 21, 2018

#416： The Self-Driven Child

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