#422： Men & Manners — Tipping, Emojis, and Much More
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Summary
On this episode of the Art of Manliness podcast, host Brett McKay is joined by writer David Coggins to discuss etiquette and manners in the modern age. They discuss the difference between good manners and bad manners, and why good manners are like poetry.
Transcript
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Hello, Brett here. Before we get to today's show, got a quick favor to ask of you. If you've been
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. They say that
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manners make the man, but how do you display good manners without coming off as awkward in
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a way that elevates life both for yourself and for others? Today on the show, I bring
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back writer David Coggins to discuss etiquette and manners in the modern age. I had David on
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the show a year ago to discuss his book, Men in Style. He's out with a new book called Men
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and Manners. Today on the show, David shares how style and manners are connected and why
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good manners are like good poetry. He then discusses the best etiquette practice concerning
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tipping, greetings, attending parties, textings, and we end our conversation highlighting the
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grace and power of handwritten notes. After the show's over, check out the show notes at
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AOM.IS slash Men in Manners. And David joins me now via clearcast.io.
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All right, David Coggins, welcome back to the show.
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So we had you on, I think, last year about your book, Men in Style, where you kind of give
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your take on what a stylish man should be doing, but you also interview a lot of your friends
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and tastemakers about their take on style. You got a new book out, Men in Manners, this
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time. I'm curious, what was interesting about the book, it's about etiquette, it's about
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manners, but you also tie it into the Men in Style book. How are style and manners connected
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Well, that's a good question. I think they both say something about, well, the man, how you
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dress says a lot about you and how you conduct yourself in public says a lot about you. I
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think it says about how you think you fit into the world. I think clothes are probably
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more superficial, but there's definitely meaning there. And manners are really how we interact
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with strangers and people we know alike. And so having thought a lot about clothes, not
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really specifics about the clothes, but what they tell us about ourselves, how our fathers
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dress, that was a big theme in the last book, what we learn from our fathers. I think that
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sort of holds over into the new book, the manners we learn from our dad, kind of the traditions
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that are worth carrying forward and also how we have to evolve because manners are not the
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same as they were certainly not a hundred years ago or 50 years ago, even when we were
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Right. Because we have cell phones now, right? That didn't exist.
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Technology is a huge issue. I mean, everybody knows it. I think having a computer with us
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at all times, an iPhone, changes the way we interact with people and our sense of self-awareness.
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I think too often it maybe makes us feel more isolated or makes us feel like we're kind of
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at the center of our world, walking around with our earphones. We don't look up. And I think
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that's sort of a metaphor for a lot of how we are in the public sphere.
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Yeah. Well, we'll get back into your take on technology and etiquette. But what I thought
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was an interesting point, we hit on it in our last conversation, but you made the case that the
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way you dress isn't just for you, but it's also for other people. And it's a way to show that you
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care about them. So in a way, dressing well is a way to show, it's a form of etiquette in a way.
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Yeah. Absolutely. In the simplest sense, it shows a sense of occasion. That's why people dress up to
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go to church, to parties, to work, to interviews, to court, right? On a first date, all those things
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are hugely consequential to varying degrees. And how you dress for them shows a lot about who you
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think you are, but also your respect for the people around you. And I think somehow we've gone
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into this zone where it's all about being comfortable, right? And as long as I'm comfortable,
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I'm fine. And that's why you have people in track suits everywhere you go, especially on
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airplanes. But that's also why maybe you look to try to be comfortable in something that's a little
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more elegant. And that's nice too. And I think we can challenge ourselves to ask a little more about
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what makes the level of comfort we can have and how we dress.
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Yeah. I mean, yeah. My father-in-law, he always talks about that. Back in the day,
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when you flew on an airplane, you had to get dressed up. You wore a jacket at least and a
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pair of slacks, but now you're wearing yoga pants and shorts and sandals.
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When I see a man wearing a suit or a sport coat on an airplane, I feel a little elevated in a way,
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not to get carried away. But it's nice to see someone making an effort. I think that
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makes us feel like we can make an effort too. And just on top of all that, if you don't feel the
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need to do it for those reasons, I read that Delta and some other airlines, there's a small
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chance that they'll upgrade you, people who are well-dressed and sort of dignified and well-mannered.
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So if you need any more reason to do it than that, I don't know what it could be than
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Right. Yeah. Traveling is already, like flying an airplane is already miserable.
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One thing we can do is just, you know, everyone kind of dress up a little bit so it feels a little
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bit more dignified. Because it already is like an undignified experience.
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Well, traveling, and there's a whole chapter in the book on that, because I think it's where we
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deal with the most people, the most strangers. And there are these rules and some of them seem
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arbitrary. Some of them are sort of longstanding and it kind of descends into a free-for-all.
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And I've been, as someone who travels a fair amount, I've been trying to kind of monitor myself
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and see what I could do to behave a little better and not, I think somehow it seems like everyone's got
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to rush onto the plane and get the last overhead bin or get the last outlet in the lounge.
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And I was trying to figure out ways to just avoid putting myself in that position.
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And hopefully, you know, we're all going to get on the plane for the most part in
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five extra seconds. I think if we all took kind of five extra seconds, we would be in a better spot.
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So I want to get your take on those. Because we had podcasts, people on the podcast talking
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about this when it comes to traveling. What's your take? And it's controversial.
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All right. What's your take on wheelie luggage?
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So it's funny you ask that. I'm one of the last people who is not for roller bags. I think
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I really believe in packing light. I think you need way less than you think you need. I actually
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think you learn more about how to dress well if you bring a limited collection of clothes. I think
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you'll always wish you pack less. And you look just more dignified. You can move more quickly.
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There's a time in every trip where you wish you just had a light bag and not a roller bag,
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whether you're going over cobblestones in a European street or when you have to go further
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from the taxi to the airplane. So I personally am not for them. I realize that puts me in the
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hopeless minority. But even if you carry a wheelie bag, I definitely say bring way, way less than
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you think. And find some shirts that you can wash yourself and don't get wrinkled.
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And I love a man, a well-dressed man who does his own laundry while he travels. I think that's
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Yeah. Walker Lamond, he wrote Rules for My Unborn Son. That was one of his rules. No wheelie luggage.
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Cosign. Strong cosign on that. But I think I've lost that one.
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Yeah, we've lost. So talking about it's possible to be comfortable while looking good. I mean,
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what are some style staples you recommend that every guy should have that you can throw on?
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It feels like you're wearing a sweatsuit, but you look good.
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That's sort of the grail, isn't it? I mean, I think I always tell people an unstructured blue
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blazer is just really the first thing to invest in. I think partly because it's so versatile,
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you can wear it with a shirt and tie to a job interview or an event, and you can wear it with
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jeans. So I think an unstructured one isn't going to, if it's in kind of a, I guess you'd say a three
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season wool, not to get too technical, isn't going to wrinkle as much. I'm really against things that
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wrinkle when I travel and that helps, I think. So like I mentioned before, an Oxford shirt is really
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good. You can literally wash it yourself and let it dry. I was just in Italy and doing that and I
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felt a little bit like a Neapolitan kind of housewife from the 1920s or something. I loved it
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hanging laundry outside my hotel window on the shutters. I also think trousers that, you know,
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like a sort of Chino, I guess you'd say something that maybe even the matching color is the sport
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coat. So then you've, you've got something that you can wear casually and comfortably and slip on
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shoes are really, really a good way to go. Some sort of loafer, something like that. You know,
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you'll find the thing that makes sense for you. I think you just start there and then it evolves as
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you evolve. I think so many people when they're young, they think they've got to get all the
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answers all at once. That's a hard thing for, to do for any of us. That's why your taste in music
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changes, your taste in literature and film changes and how you dress and changes as well. So you don't
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need to have it all figured out, but if you make a good faith effort, I think that's a really good
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start. All right. So dressing well is one way we can show etiquette to the, to others. I love this.
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You have this section where you talk about how manners are like poetry, which I thought
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wasn't interesting because I never heard of manners spoken like the way. How are manners
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like poetry? Well, that's an interesting question. I asked a handful of people to contribute to the
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book, people who are experts in given topics. So there's a bartender, there's a man who owns a few
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restaurants, there's someone who makes stationery. And I asked a poet, a man named Dobby Gibson,
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who's from St. Paul, Minnesota. I'm from St. Paul as well. And he's the one who said manners
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were like poetry. And I loved that idea. And he says, he says it in some way that we find them
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lacking in our lives far too often, both manners and poetry, but then they invariably come back when
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you least expect it or when you're not expecting them. Meaning you find poetry in everyday life where
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you need manners you're called upon to do the right thing and that they will always be with us even when
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we can't see them. So I loved that idea. And so that had a sort of prominent part in the book.
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And I also say just, we don't know a lot of poets. I think the people who know the most poets are poets
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probably. And so it's nice to hear from someone who's a successful person and a professor and a
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really nice man. And his section in the book was really nice. And I thought that was nice to think
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about it because I don't think manners are just transactional. I think it's about being the best
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version of yourself. I think that's really a theme throughout the book.
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Another way, after I read that and I was thinking about it, another way I think manners are like
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poetry. There are some really hokey poems, right? But there's also really hokey... You can be really
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hokey with your manners and where it comes off stilted and awkward. And the best poems are the
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ones that are just like, it's super subtle, then it just wallops you without even knowing you're
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being walloped. And I feel like that's with manners too. There's some people who... It's very
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awkward when they're trying to be polite. But there's some people who just... It comes naturally
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and you just feel good after interacting with them. And you can't really pinpoint why that is.
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That's so true. I love... I think something about poetry is that it starts in a very personal way,
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but it also is universal as well. That's how we connect to it, like a pop song or something.
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And there's something to be said about people who put you at ease. And you can't always put your
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finger on how they do that. And that's something I'm trying to improve on as I get older and interact
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with more people. How do we make someone feel comfortable? And we do that in a thousand
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different ways, eye contact, tone of voice, smiling. And a lot of things we were taught
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and maybe forgot or our lives are moving so fast or whatever it is that we think they don't matter.
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And then when you're around someone who's good at that, it's just such a wonderful thing.
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And it kind of makes you want to be a little bit better too at that. And that's sort of where
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the idea of being a gentleman is in the first place, a gentleness, a kindness, and a way of
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putting other people at ease. And when you can do that, that's a pretty good place to be.
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All right. So let's get into specifics because this is the fun stuff. Everyone loves to talk about...
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Because everyone has their take on what's proper etiquette in certain situations.
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Tipping is a uniquely American phenomenon, but there's a lot of debate about what's a proper
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tipping etiquette. So what's your take on proper tipping etiquette? Should you tip
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everybody? Should you be generous? Is it 10%, 20%? What is your take?
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Tipping is huge. It's the first chapter in the book for that reason. I think it drives us crazy
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because we have to make mental calculations. It's a social interaction. Sometimes I honestly think
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one reason that Uber and certain online apps are popular is because it takes service out of it.
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You can just get out of the car and you don't have to do that. I think it's important to be a good
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tipper. I think that's the first thing. I think you want to be a man who tips well, not just because
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you'll get better service, though I think you will, but because of what it means and how you view the way
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you interact with people every day. And so you don't want to be the person who's trying to give a
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dollar less. You want to be the person who gives a dollar more. And if everyone gave a dollar more
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to the waitress or the bartender, then he or she's had a good night. And you want to be that person.
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So if you start with that idea, that's the best place to do it. Then you can get into rules.
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And I think when I was younger, you gave someone a dollar a drink and now that seems wrong. So you
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give them, I start with a few dollars a drink. If I'm at a bar, maybe more. And then I tip a dollar
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or so after that. And at the end of the evening, I give them a little more above that. It depends
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what type of place it is. I think if I ever sit down to a restaurant, here's a little rule.
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Even if it's a diner, anytime I'm seated at a table, I will always tip at least $5, even if
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the bill was, let's say, $10. I just think of $5 as a nice thing. And I also take into account if,
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let's say, I'm on one of my not drinking phases and I'm just having a mineral water at a bar,
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I'll tip more than just 20% because that drink is cheap and I'm taking up real estate.
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If you've logged a lot of time at a bar or restaurant, I think you kind of want to tip
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for the space that you're occupying. You just want to do the right thing. I think it's,
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you generally, I mean, people have all these rules and rules are a good place to start.
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If you want to ask me, do I tip 20% at a restaurant? I do. If I have really expensive wine,
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then I probably tip a little bit less than that because I don't think you need to tip
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20% on bottles of wine that are really expensive. And I think if you're at a hotel,
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do you want to be a person who's welcome back? I mean, everyone is going to know about your habits
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at a restaurant you go to a lot or a hotel. So when I leave a hotel, I leave a little bit of
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money for the maid. If the concierge has helped me a lot, I leave an envelope for him. I always think
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it's better to leave money in an envelope. At the end of the year, if there's a place that you do
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a lot of business with, if you have a barber, a dry cleaner, anyone, somebody, if you have a
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doorman in your building, put some money in an envelope and give it to them. It's a nice thing
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to do. And I think one of the themes of the book is when you have arrived at the age where it's time
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to do these more mature things. And I think for a long time, that's the sort of thing your dad did
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while you're a younger guy. But then now it's your turn. It's our turn to make the more generous
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overture to the people in our lives. That even means giving money to a charity. Those seem like
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the sort of thing your grandparents did. And now as we get older, it's the sort of thing we should
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be doing too. What about tipping baristas or people who have tip jars? This is really tough because I
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think if the person is engaging with you, I don't think every tip jar needs to be filled. I think
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that's important too. And if you go into a place and someone's sullen and you've already paid a lot
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for some sort of juice that, you know, way more than you should have, then you don't need to be
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giving money on top of that. I think if it's a place you go a lot, it's a nice thing to do. And I
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think they recognize it. If you have a nice interaction, it's positive and you say, thank you.
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And if you don't, maybe you take a pass or just give some loose change. But that's the toughest one
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of all. Cause you're so close to the person and there's usually a line behind you. Right. And
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they're looking at you. They, I just gave you change. Absolutely. Well, I think that's the
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tough, tough one. If you, if you feel some sympathy, some sympathy and some frequency to this place,
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I think it's usually a good idea, but you know, not everything deserves a tip.
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So the other thing I find awkward sometimes I've gotten better about it though, is, is handing off a
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tip directly to somebody. Cause like leaving a tip for a waiter is easy. You just leave it there and you
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don't have, but like when you're like, Hey, thank you. And you like hand the person money for some
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reason, it just feels really awkward. Right. Or it can feel awkward. So like, how do you, how do you do
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that? Where you're like, you know, you don't want to be sleazy about it where you're like, you know,
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shake their hand and like you pass the money without anyone noticing. And like, well, how do you,
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how do you, what's your take on handing off a tip like gracefully? I mean, it's, it's such a classic
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situation. I mean, I think somehow it's from sort of bad cop TV shows where they're sticking
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$20 in the, you know, the chest pocket of someone. And it just couldn't be worse. I think you just
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say, thank you. We had a great time. Or if, you know, if I often at a, you know, I get my beard
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trim and I usually give the man $5. So I just say, thanks a lot. And I hand it to him and I shake his
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hand and I don't put it in my hand. I just hand them, you know, a folded up bill and, and try to,
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it's an inherently awkward situation. If it's a valet, I just say, thanks a lot, look at him and hand the
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money over to him and, you know, they, they'll take it. Right. Right. That's part of it. And if
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you, you know, they'll, you just want to put this awkward five seconds in the middle of a friendly
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45 seconds, it's, that's never going to go away. You just get used to it. You know, I think in
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general, all of these things we do in our lives are awkward at some point and just doing them more
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puts us more at ease and the more at ease we are, that's going to put who we're dealing with more
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at ease. You know, it's just like when you dine out with a, you know, with, at a fancy restaurant
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and they hand you the menu and, you know, I think you want to be slowed down and it will be fine.
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I think we often are so worried about doing the right thing or following these rules that we sort
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of lose our level of natural, naturalism. And the more natural you are, probably the better off you'll
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be, but it takes work and experience and time to do that, you know? Yeah. So it's going to be
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awkward at first, but you'll get, yeah, that's how, but it's been my experience. I've gotten better
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about it. Does it, it's completely normal now. I mean, I've tracked down people, you know,
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sometimes I'm obsessed if I'm in, if I'm in Europe, like having all this like correct change
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in bills for all the people you're going to have to hand them to, you get to a hotel. It's like
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you're facing this gauntlet of different people who need different amounts of money. And sometimes
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you run out of it or you haven't changed it yet, or you need yen or euros or whatever it is.
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And I'll just say, I'm sorry. Someone brings bags up to your room and say, I don't have
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it now. I'll come down and give it to you. You're not lying. You just, you're going to
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see these people again for the duration of your stay and you track them down and you give
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them a, whatever, a couple of bucks or whatever it is. And those things happen. They're used
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to it. But if you follow through, they'll, they'll be happy.
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So let's raise another point. You know, man should have cash on them.
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I'm a huge believer in cash. I mean, we've gotten to this point in it. When I wrote the
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last book, the issue was just all the things with credit cards, but now we've got Venmo and
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it's even more complicated in the last year. And you see these people at tables who they
00:21:08.940
want to pay their bill four ways and, but somebody ordered wine and somebody got the steak and
00:21:13.780
you'd think it's like doing your taxes. It's so confusing. I think sometimes I, I just
00:21:19.160
like to pay, it takes, if you're with one or two other people, maybe you take care of
00:21:24.620
it and they'll get you back later. And then maybe you leave a tip in cash, but cash, you're
00:21:29.340
always comfortable when you have cash and you're ready for whatever is going to happen. I really,
00:21:35.040
Yeah. It comes in handy. Whenever like we go downtown, like I always make sure I have
00:21:38.280
cash. Cause like there's parking you got to pay. There's people you got to tip. It comes in
00:21:42.240
hand. Right. And you don't want to be the one who can't, let's say you end up at a dive
00:21:46.120
bar. They don't take cards and the first round is on your buddy. The next round's on you.
00:21:49.580
And you don't want to be sort of worried about it or not ready to do whatever you need to
00:21:53.880
do. Or you get involved in a pool game with some, some other people and you want who you
00:21:58.520
got to be, if you have cash, you're ready for, for what the evening might bring.
00:22:02.600
Yeah. I've recently invested in a money club. That was my recent acquisition. It's been
00:22:06.640
great. I love it. All right. So let's talk about parties.
00:22:09.660
Yes. And what, so we're not talking about just like a hangout party, right? But I mean,
00:22:14.820
maybe some of this stuff can apply, but we're talking like someone sends you an invite.
00:22:18.580
What's the etiquette there on arriving? Should you bring a gift? How RSVP, like people don't RSVP
00:22:24.660
anymore, but I think I would say, you would say, argue that no, you should RSVP.
00:22:28.940
Well, I think you take a hint from the formality of the invitation. If the invitation is sent in
00:22:35.280
the mail and it's for a wedding or something, then they probably have a card or some sort of RSVP.
00:22:39.660
If the invitation is emailed, then I'd email back and just say, I'm looking forward to it. I can't
00:22:45.740
wait. And then you, typically what happens is you say, what can I bring? And they'll say, oh,
00:22:50.000
don't bring anything or bring wine. And if someone says, don't bring anything, you still bring
00:22:54.260
something. Never show up empty handed. Even if it's a hangout, if you're going over to watch the
00:23:00.280
NFC championship to watch the Minnesota Vikings get humiliated, that would be my team. You still
00:23:05.880
bring a six pack or whatever it is. And if you're going to a party, bring a bottle of wine. If they
00:23:11.000
say, if it's like a sit down party and your host is really particular about wine and you don't want
00:23:15.680
to get in the middle of their plan, bring them a bottle of champagne that's in a box. It's a gift
00:23:21.900
to them. It's something they can have later. It's not for to be had at the party. I think you always
00:23:26.780
want to bring something. It doesn't have to be liquor. You can bring some flowers. You can bring,
00:23:31.020
if you're going into the country and you pass a farm stand, get whatever nice looking fruit there
00:23:37.080
is, something seasonal and colorful, something that says you're in the mood. You can even bring
00:23:41.580
something really like tonic water or something useful that they might've not thought of. I even
00:23:47.200
sometimes text people when I'm about to arrive. It's a little different in New York, maybe than other
00:23:51.240
places. I say, I'm at the corner of your street. Do you need anything? Are you running low on
00:23:56.600
anything already? Then I get them whatever tonic water or juice or whatever they need.
00:24:02.760
How should you arrive? Fashion relate or should you arrive early or on time?
00:24:06.960
I think from the parties, when I have people over, I always want them to arrive earlier than they do.
00:24:13.600
I don't think you want to be right on the button, but usually you sense what sort of event it is. If
00:24:20.280
the people are sitting down to dinner, you want to be there when you're asked.
00:24:24.660
If it's a standing affair where there are going to be a lot of different people
00:24:29.220
arriving staggered, I think you want to come at a reasonable time, partly because it's the best time
00:24:35.240
to talk to the host. If you get there after it's in full swing, the host is going to have a lot on
00:24:40.440
his mind or a lot on her mind. You're not going to be able to have a little quality time together.
00:24:46.680
If you really want to get in the spirit, bring a bottle of whiskey. If you want to get even more
00:24:51.620
in the spirit, I think there's nothing more fun than a large format bottle of wine. They're not
00:24:56.620
always as expensive as you think. It really communicates fun and festiveness, festivity,
00:25:06.460
I imagine don't put lampshades on your head if you go to a party.
00:25:09.840
Yeah, no lampshades. When it comes to leaving, I've definitely been the last to leave. If you're
00:25:17.600
not helping clean up, I think you want to get out of there at a reasonable time and not hijack the
00:25:22.800
sound system and start putting on depressing Smith songs or something.
00:25:27.300
Right, Depeche Mode. And follow-up after the party, do you advocate for that?
00:25:33.540
Absolutely. The next morning, I don't know why. I always feel depressed the morning after a party
00:25:39.680
because I'm usually hungover. I've got a ton of dishes to do. I'm mostly aware of the people who
00:25:46.360
didn't show up, which is just a weird thing that happens. Not mostly. You just are aware of anything
00:25:50.400
that went wrong or people you missed. I always text someone. And then if it's a more involved
00:25:55.300
situation, break out the stationery or postcard or something, write them a note in addition to the
00:26:01.660
text or email, depending on the way you usually communicate and send them something. Even send
00:26:06.760
them a bottle of something or take them out or offer to take them out again. I mean, it's nice
00:26:12.660
to make offers to people to make overtures and to even offer to take someone out and let them know
00:26:17.860
that you're taking them out ahead of time. Not just that you pick up the bill at the end, just say,
00:26:21.760
thanks so much for the other night. Can I take you for a glass of wine or a beer or whatever it is?
00:26:26.660
All right. Let's talk about another awkward part of social life, which is greeting people.
00:26:33.380
I don't know. For some reason, it's gotten awkward in the past, I'd say, 10 years. I think we're out
00:26:37.940
of practice. Sure. Because there's those moments where you meet someone new. There's that. But then
00:26:43.240
also the really awkward one is when you see someone you kind of know at the grocery store, but then
00:26:49.280
should I say hello? What do I say? Oh, my goodness.
00:26:52.600
And then you say hello and you're like, oh, goodbye. And then you see them again in the
00:26:56.660
grocery store. Right. In the checkout line. Yeah.
00:26:59.240
Yeah. I mean, these things make me laugh because they're so human and they're so recognizable. I
00:27:04.700
mean, one reason that I wanted to do the book is to see what we're all struggling with or grappling
00:27:11.440
with. And I think these things are really human. I mean, I think greetings are really important.
00:27:16.240
If you meet someone in particular, introductions, then you want to, I mean, a firm handshake. I mean,
00:27:21.320
you don't want to shatter anyone's bones, but a firm handshake, eye contact, smile, say their
00:27:25.760
name back to them, partly to help you remember it. But it just, I don't understand how anyone
00:27:31.540
cannot greet someone well. It's sort of setting the stage for the future of your relationship,
00:27:36.840
whether that's professional or romantic or personal. It really, really says a lot about
00:27:41.760
you. I mean, a disproportionate amount about you. As far as when you run into people, I often
00:27:46.000
find myself saying, particularly if I'm not sure about their name or think they may not
00:27:51.200
remember me, if it was someone I met briefly and I see him at a cocktail party or an art
00:27:55.680
opening and I want to reconnect, I say, you know, nice to see you. I'm David. We met wherever
00:28:00.260
it was. And they'll either say, oh, right. Or of course I remember you. How could you do?
00:28:04.760
Well, whatever it is, you're setting the stage for them to reintroduce themselves in case you
00:28:10.760
can't remember their name. And also it's just a nice way to engage. As far as double kissing and
00:28:17.160
triple kissing and all that, I mean, you're never going to solve that. I was just, I was just in
00:28:20.780
Italy and I was leaning the wrong way. And who knows, some people are hugging and some people
00:28:25.140
are, you just, you try to do the right thing and follow someone else's lead if they lean in.
00:28:31.520
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Backpacks carry on. And now back to the show. Right. You got to go for it. I like how you made,
00:30:47.540
you mentioned, I think we should make, bring back the Cary Grant. How do you do when you meet somebody?
00:30:52.400
It's so, it's so classy and so simple and it's done. Right. I love it.
00:30:56.840
My grandfather said that and that always struck me. And then I see Cary Grant, how do you do? And
00:31:02.960
I just think, how do you do is a very nice, especially if you say it to someone who says
00:31:07.160
it back to you, then you feel like you've, you're complicit in some sort of traditional
00:31:12.240
way of greeting. And I think that, that, that, that's nice. How do you do? And also going back to
00:31:17.480
that idea when you, when you see people in public that, you know, and you're like, oh,
00:31:21.620
should I say hello? Or do I pretend like I've not seen them? Like, I think one thing that's helped
00:31:26.000
me is like, okay, they're probably thinking the same thing as I am. I'll just be the guy that just,
00:31:32.200
just goes forward and says, Hey, what's going on? How are you? And just be, yeah, just take charge,
00:31:37.880
I think that's probably true in almost every one of these things we've discussed that the other
00:31:42.160
person is thinking the same thing as you. And so you just want to make, not make the first move,
00:31:47.620
but be open about it and, and, and gracious. I think it's nice. I mean, I definitely, there are
00:31:52.840
times when you run into someone on the street and, you know, you're in a rush, they're in a rush,
00:31:56.940
you know them just well enough and they'll say hello. You say hello and you just kind of barely
00:32:00.920
break stride and you kind of somehow both understand that you're not going to stop and talk. And that's
00:32:06.940
sort of sophisticated too, that, that you under, that they recognize the situation and that maybe it's
00:32:11.960
not the time you're late for the subway or something. But yeah, I think it's nice to be
00:32:19.900
So we talked about the way you dress can be a form of etiquette and says a lot about you.
00:32:25.100
You also said that way you, you, way you present your domicile can also be a way to,
00:32:34.460
Well, I don't know if it's etiquette so much as you will definitely be not judged,
00:32:39.840
but assessed by the way your home is, looks and how you live. And you're correct to be assessed
00:32:46.120
that way. I mean, if, in, in the case of, if you bring a, you know, if it's a woman, I mean,
00:32:50.960
of course she's going to notice what type of sheets you have in towels and the art you have
00:32:55.020
on your wall, or if you have the dreaded black leather couch. I mean, I think some of these things
00:32:59.860
are also about growing up, you know, when you lived with three other guys in a quad in college
00:33:04.740
and you had the reservoir dogs poster or whatever it was at that time, that's one thing.
00:33:10.220
And now you've kind of grown up out of that and you have maybe a collection of books or you've
00:33:16.660
bought a rug or you, you know, found some painting at a thrift store or whatever it is. And I think
00:33:21.900
it's nice to, to live in a way, not just for yourself, but for the people who come back. I mean,
00:33:27.780
there's nothing, I don't know if everyone's experiences where if you come back with someone
00:33:31.500
unexpectedly late at night and you're kind of running ahead of a woman trying to kind of
00:33:35.280
clean up your apartment briefly and wondering if you've left it in a state of disrepute, you know,
00:33:41.260
that's better to have it a little bit, uh, tidier. And I think it also says something about how you,
00:33:47.100
that you take yourself seriously in a way and that you consider yourself an adult.
00:33:50.840
Yeah. This is kind of an interesting tangent about decorations. Cause like a lot of men don't think
00:33:54.720
about it too much, but you wrote about art for a lot. So you're into art. I'm like one of those guys,
00:33:58.940
like, I want something I'm interested in, but it's like, man, it's going to cost a lot of money.
00:34:02.400
But that's necessarily the case. Can you decorate your house with some great looking stuff without,
00:34:07.400
Absolutely. I think that's the best way to start. In fact, for a long time, even when I wrote about
00:34:12.580
art, I would mostly acquire things just when I traveled that weren't even technically art.
00:34:18.400
There could be maps or old Argentinian soccer programs that had really cool graphics
00:34:24.060
or all sorts of things, photographs that weren't necessarily fine art, but that I liked. I mean,
00:34:30.260
I would get them framed and put them up and just like your wardrobe or anything else,
00:34:34.020
it evolves over time. I think sometimes people are over, they think too much about a very,
00:34:41.000
the first thing they do. And so it intimidates them. I don't, I don't know anything about art.
00:34:45.000
I can't do it, but what's on your wall is, doesn't have to be art, but it can certainly be
00:34:49.960
meaningful to you and it can say something about you. And then you learn more about it,
00:34:53.540
or you learn more about your own taste and you find something that does make sense.
00:34:57.240
And I think that that's really a nice thing. And I think if you want to get more strategic about it
00:35:02.580
and you've got a little bit of money to spend, a lot of museums or art galleries will have kind
00:35:08.920
of fundraisers and sometimes they have little silent auctions before them where you can bid on
00:35:14.520
an edition, you know, instead of getting a painting or a unique work, you're getting a print
00:35:18.160
or something that's part of a run of, let's say 30 things, which usually costs much less.
00:35:22.980
And that's a great opportunity to spend a few hundred dollars and maybe you get one every
00:35:28.080
year. So at the Minnesota Institute of Art, we have this called the print and drawing fair
00:35:32.100
and something like that exists in many cities. And that, you know, it's a step to do that for
00:35:39.180
And part of that is a little bit of the theme of this conversation is growing up and taking
00:35:44.060
initiative. And, and I think it's a good thing. Go with your girlfriend or go with a friend
00:35:48.120
who cares about that sort of thing. And, and you, you'd be surprised. You, you'll know what
00:35:52.280
you like. Don't be afraid of the things you respond to. And then you build on that. I think
00:35:57.600
so often we keep ourselves from doing something because we don't think we, oh, I don't know
00:36:02.080
a lot about wine or I don't know enough about the opera or the theater to have an opinion.
00:36:05.900
And, and you know, you get to have an opinion about jazz or classical music is to, you know,
00:36:11.800
expose yourself to it and, and immerse yourself in it. And not everything's going to be for
00:36:16.580
you, but some things really will be. So many people discover passionate things in their lives
00:36:21.920
as they, as they're 30 or even older than that, whether it's activities like fly fishing or
00:36:27.780
something they may never have thought they cared about, like the opera. And I think you,
00:36:32.100
you want to be open-minded to a lot more things than you think and let yourself change and evolve
00:36:37.580
and grow. Yeah. One of the things that intimidates me about buying art is that, okay,
00:36:41.840
I'm going to buy this thing and it's going to have to be up in my house forever. And so like,
00:36:47.300
I never buy anything. It's like, I got to find that perfect thing. But like, you know,
00:36:50.480
the way you described it, you could just take out, rip out a page of a book that you think looks
00:36:54.120
cool and frame it, put it up and then you can replace it, you know, a couple of years if you want,
00:36:58.480
or even a few months later. Well, if you've ever seen how, or my approach to this is like,
00:37:04.220
I have a ton of rugs on my floor and a ton of art on my wall. And the more you have,
00:37:07.760
then the less importance each one has. So if you have one rug, then that better be a nice rug.
00:37:12.820
But if you have like a dozen, then that's just sort of reads as like all the same. And if you have
00:37:18.040
one piece of artwork on your wall, people are going to look at it. If you have a little grid of a few
00:37:22.500
things, then it, it kind of lessens the blow, you know? And I think that, I don't know if that
00:37:27.760
helps everybody, but that's a good way to think about it. And then, and then you get a little
00:37:31.600
less precious about it, you know? Cause of course the first time you do something, you think it's
00:37:35.000
this immense decision. It's like, if you just have one piece of furniture, right? And then you have
00:37:38.820
a little bit and it's not so, it's not, it's not quite as striking. Yeah. It takes the pressure
00:37:44.060
off for sure. I like that idea. Right. Exactly. All right. So let's get into etiquette and technology
00:37:49.540
because it's something our parents don't have to deal with, our grandparents. And I think a lot
00:37:54.200
of the etiquette around technology is communication. Cause again, communication, like manners is all
00:37:59.340
about human relations. And now we, we relate with other people through our technology. So I mean,
00:38:05.900
what's your take? Like with, when you have a computer in your phone, all in your pocket all the
00:38:09.640
time, what's the, the gentlemanly or the gentlemanly thing to do with that? Yeah. I mean, this is it.
00:38:17.300
This is the world we live in. I think one, one thing I try to keep in mind is technology has
00:38:23.720
changed our lives in many, many wonderful ways. I mean, I love texting. I love Instagram. I love a
00:38:29.280
lot of this. I love having a camera in my pocket. I love all music and podcasts and all those things
00:38:34.320
that they, they provide us. But I think the danger is that we let them dictate what we're doing when
00:38:41.080
we're in public. And I think that means that we've all seen a table of four people or two people on a
00:38:47.120
date and they're both looking at their phones. I mean, what's going on here? I mean, the best
00:38:51.460
things in your life are going to happen face to face with someone. And if you, especially as
00:38:55.500
everyone's busy, it's harder to see your friends have kids or you're traveling. And when you finally
00:38:59.000
get to be with your friend, keep the phones away. And as much as you can, I want to hear what my
00:39:05.940
friend's been up to, you know, what they're excited about. I don't want to, and I don't even just want
00:39:10.520
to see them showing me videos or something on their phone. I'd rather, I'd rather engage with them.
00:39:15.440
And that's going to lead to even more interesting things. So I try to keep the phone away. If you
00:39:20.940
really have to use it, take it outside, just take it away from where people are trying to have a good
00:39:26.640
time. Nothing is more off-putting than somebody jabbering on their phone in a cafe or a bar. I
00:39:33.500
mean, what, what's going on here? It's the part of manners is thinking about other people other than
00:39:39.300
yourself. Of course, it's one of the first things we learn. And I, unfortunately the, the phone is
00:39:45.040
really inverted that equation. So people think that wherever they are is their office. They can
00:39:51.460
just, you know, they're FaceTiming in restaurants at just bonkers loud level. I just keep, keep it
00:39:57.980
away when you can, or if you really have to use it, take it away from other people.
00:40:04.120
You know, it's funny. I, for many years, I wish there were italics that would really have helped
00:40:10.880
me say, uh, partly because they're so expressive and it's an, a discreet way of being expressive,
00:40:16.160
I think. And when I realized that people were misunderstanding my texts, that they didn't
00:40:22.480
see the, what I thought was a very bone dry humor, then I, I might've tossed in an emoji,
00:40:28.380
but I generally think it's better to be the one, the second person in a text exchange to use an
00:40:33.840
emoji, not the first. I'm always surprised when, when, when, uh, you know, serious guy I know will
00:40:39.720
use LOL or something. I'll just laugh. I think it's so funny. And I, it's sort of sweet because it
00:40:44.160
means they're, they're, they don't care so much in a way. I personally don't use that, those types of
00:40:49.100
formations, but I'll toss in an emoji. If I know it's an emoji safe environment.
00:40:53.600
Right. Right. Be funny. I wish I didn't have to. Right. Be funny if Cormac McCarthy used LOL.
00:40:59.260
Yeah, exactly. Okay. Well, it's okay. Emojis. Okay. Sometimes like, are there emojis that like
00:41:04.920
you think, okay, those are awful. No one should ever, no man, no man, dignified man would ever
00:41:09.580
use a certain emoji. Well, absolutely. I mean, I think we know what they are. I mean, if they're
00:41:13.880
vile or vulgar or provocative or something that a 13 year old would use, I think it's generally nice to,
00:41:20.140
if you have to just some sort of laugh your face or whatever it is. I mean, it's, it sounds absurd
00:41:24.920
to say it, but you know, when it's the right time to use it, you know, cause it's just sort of saying
00:41:28.820
that you're, you're sharing some sort of joke with someone you like, but I don't think you want to make
00:41:34.180
a habit out of it. And you probably don't want to be the first one to toss it out there, especially if
00:41:38.260
it's with someone you're, you're hoping to get to know better. Yeah. The text is tricky and you wrote
00:41:43.540
about this too. And I I've noticed not only with my text and my email, but like I'm using exclamation points
00:41:48.200
all the time and like for no reason, but it's just to show that like, I'm not, I'm not mad. I mean,
00:41:54.440
basically the exclamation point is like, I am, I'm, Hey, I'm not mad. This is.
00:41:58.400
That's, that's perfectly said, Brett. That's so funny. I didn't use an exclamation point, not just in text,
00:42:03.320
but in any writing I did for all the times I, in anything, in magazines and newspapers, much less texts or emails.
00:42:11.960
And then finally a few years ago I did start to use them. And now if I get a text from my mom that
00:42:17.640
just says, okay, let's meet for dinner. And it just says, okay, all in lowercase letters. I'm like,
00:42:22.680
mom, what's going on? Why are you so sad or angry? Let's put a exclamation point on the end of that
00:42:28.040
to show some enthusiasm. I think it's, yeah, I think now we're kind of conditioned. I think it's
00:42:32.620
going to be really effective and I don't just one will do. And it shows that you're kind of exactly
00:42:39.040
like you said, not angry. I that's, that's perfectly put. Yeah. It's not, it's not just
00:42:43.240
sure it's sure. Exactly. Right. You can't wait to be there. I'll be there on time early. In fact.
00:42:49.980
Right. It's so funny to have that's, that's changing. It's, yeah, it's kind of, I find it
00:42:53.340
kind of annoying, but I feel like I had to do that. So I don't, right. People don't know I'm angry at
00:42:57.040
them. Social media, like Instagram, like there's like, you know, that's like, how's it old Instagram
00:43:02.200
now? 10 years, maybe not, not even that five. I don't know. But like, there's like a whole
00:43:08.140
etiquette around that now, right? Like, do you, like, when do you like something? Like
00:43:13.440
what, I mean, so what's your take on that on, on using Instagram?
00:43:17.320
I think it's really, really, I think it's evolving and that makes it complicated. The
00:43:21.740
way we share information is so different than it was even a few years ago. So someone puts
00:43:26.740
something that seems really important on Instagram and you're sharing this with the whole world.
00:43:31.740
I'll often write them back by email to say, you know, congratulations if you're getting
00:43:36.380
married, even though you, you know, you shared it on a picture of a ring on Instagram to thousands
00:43:42.160
of people. I'd rather keep my communication private, but you're right. You feel this pressure
00:43:47.880
to show enthusiasm. And I don't know the answer. I really don't. I think everyone's going to have
00:43:53.560
their own approach when sometimes we think people are showing off their lives. And then usually that's
00:43:59.040
just because they do something a little bit more than the way we do it or the way we're comfortable
00:44:02.820
doing it. And I'm sure someone thinks that I do something a certain way. And we, we don't quite
00:44:08.920
know. I think that we're how much to be, to make our lives public and the way we present ourselves.
00:44:16.000
I mean, you're definitely presenting yourself that there's no way around that. It's like dressing in
00:44:20.120
that regard. You can say, oh, well, I just do my Instagram the way I do it. But that's like saying,
00:44:25.180
I just wear what I wear. It doesn't mean anything, but of course it means something. Not making a
00:44:28.940
choice is still a choice. So I think we're going to figure that out. I mean, I, I don't personally
00:44:34.700
post many pictures of myself. I have a, you know, following of people who I don't know. And so it's
00:44:40.640
more of a, I travel a lot and write about that and write about tailoring and those sorts of things.
00:44:46.300
So I try to share things based on my interests and that's makes sense for me and works for me.
00:44:51.920
It's probably not what makes sense for other people. And, you know, I follow some friends who have
00:44:56.620
feeds of their children that I'm very close to, but then other people I'm not following them.
00:45:02.100
So it's strange the way we do that. And I think we're still, it's still evolving. It's evolved
00:45:06.760
so much in 10 years. I mean, when you look back at what Instagram was, when we started,
00:45:11.320
I just signed up because I wanted to make what looked like an old Polaroid. Remember they
00:45:15.700
with like a white border and, oh my goodness, and sepia toned or something. And now,
00:45:21.400
you know, it's evolving every few months. Yeah. I think we'll have etiquette books about
00:45:27.380
Instagram here in a couple of years. Right. But they'd be outdated so quickly. I mean,
00:45:31.600
one thing to me that's nice is that it allows me to interact with people. People write me questions
00:45:38.680
all the time. People I've never met about places I've been, about, you know, suits and tailoring
00:45:43.840
advice that they want. And that's a nice thing to have. I think this sort of seamlessness,
00:45:48.400
I think you can go overboard with that. But I usually make an effort to read and respond to
00:45:53.740
all the messages I get from people who have questions about if they see I'm in a certain
00:45:57.840
city and they're going to go there, they say, oh, where should I go? Or if they want some sort of
00:46:03.040
advice about shoes or whatever it is. And I do, and Instagram messages, which literally have only
00:46:09.060
been around not that long, has really changed the way we can communicate with people that we don't
00:46:15.360
know as well. And that, that could be a nice thing. Yeah. One thing I've noticed people do,
00:46:20.420
I've noticed in the recent years that people are getting more strategic about social media in
00:46:24.040
general. I think before it was all of just, it was a broadcast model, like let the whole world,
00:46:29.140
you know, see what I'm doing. But now you're seeing people like they have private accounts and
00:46:33.660
they only let certain people see certain images. If it's like close family, do that. And then
00:46:38.820
they'll have maybe if they have a more forward facing presence online.
00:46:42.580
Right. That's, that's probably for the best. Of course, then you get these people with so many
00:46:46.480
accounts and you're like, look, can you just tell me which one to follow? You know, I think
00:46:50.760
we're overwhelmed with feeds. I know everybody, a lot of people criticize this. They want the feed
00:46:56.560
that comes in order, the chronological feed, but I actually like how they stack it now. So the 12 or
00:47:02.460
15 people that I want to see the most, they're usually right at the top of my feed. But I mean,
00:47:06.800
it's, it's amazing how much this is part of our lives now. I mean, my dad, who has the same name
00:47:12.760
as me, he would, he never wanted to get on Instagram and he had a book coming out, a book
00:47:17.440
that some people think I wrote, which I didn't call Paris and Winner. And now he's, he, he's on
00:47:22.960
Instagram all the time and he loves it. He's interacting with my friends. They're commenting
00:47:26.340
to me about what they've seen that he's up to. It's, it's a wild new world.
00:47:30.120
So one thing that can simplify this is going back in technological time and bringing back
00:47:38.040
the handwritten note, which you write about in the book as well.
00:47:41.400
I believe that we respond to those things in a very strong way, kind of like beautiful ceramics.
00:47:47.180
It's just a physical, something we, we are almost hardwired to respond to it. When someone sends me
00:47:54.040
a note, I love it. I think that I speak for a lot of people when I say that I like getting
00:47:59.200
mail, like handwritten mail, real mail. And my dad is actually wonderful about that sort
00:48:05.040
of thing. I have envelopes that he's sent me from probably the last 30 years that are some
00:48:10.240
of my favorite things that I have. And I think there's, I think it's nice when, also when you
00:48:16.320
get something from somebody and you realize that they have personalized stationery, that feels like
00:48:19.960
such a decision they made in their lives that I approve of. And the fact that it's a little bit
00:48:26.240
expensive and not really that practical makes it even better. I like the fact that it isn't
00:48:31.220
the easiest way to do something. And so that's why in the book, we talked to Ted Harrington from
00:48:37.540
Terrapin Stationers who makes engraved stationery. And he's, he's very funny and irreverent about that,
00:48:45.420
but his family has been making that sort of thing for generations. And it's, it's really nice to have,
00:48:49.700
to have that, to have some stationery. I believe in it. A thank you card. Once you have it,
00:48:54.360
you find you use it more than you would have thought. And when, and if you, and you're speaking
00:48:58.780
of being strategic and if you're, you know, invited to something that, you know, some sort of work
00:49:03.720
event or something where you're trying to make an impression on someone to write back to them and
00:49:07.000
thanking you for being included to whatever it was, a press event or something like that. I think
00:49:14.040
And what I love about handwritten letters or snail mail is that it eliminates a lot of the weird,
00:49:19.380
like unspoken, like rules of like online technology, where when you get something online,
00:49:25.440
there's an expectation. You got to get back to me like today or within a few hours. Like when I get
00:49:29.720
a letter from somebody or I send a letter to somebody, like, I know it's going to take, you know,
00:49:34.680
a day or two to get there. They're going to get it and they might, and I'm okay, I'm okay. If they
00:49:38.380
don't get back to me for like a week or two, or even they don't even get back to me. Like I'm okay
00:49:42.760
with that. It just eliminates that, that weird social pressure we have with online communication.
00:49:47.040
I love that. I love that sentiment, that kind of open-endedness of it,
00:49:51.420
that it's, it doesn't require that, you know, immediate response. I think anything that says
00:49:56.100
read, like a read notification is just diabolical. I don't want people to know exactly when I've read
00:50:01.780
something. And to be honest, I don't want to know when they've read it because then you have some sort
00:50:06.120
of, just like you said, expectation, but, but a letter kind of exists in its own space and time,
00:50:12.420
right? When, once you've sent it out, you don't know when it arrives. You don't know when
00:50:16.700
someone read it and it's nice to just have it out in the world. So I, I think it's a wonderful
00:50:22.100
thing. And I feel like we do, it is the antidote to that kind of sped up, hyper-responsive groove we
00:50:29.860
get into in our daily lives with, that we don't even realize we get into like, yes, text response
00:50:35.800
five minutes from now. I think sometimes that's really useful if you're about to meet somebody
00:50:39.900
or whatever it is, but it also has us kind of dialed into our phones way, way too much.
00:50:45.800
Way too much. All right. Are there any rules you came across in your conversations, your interviews
00:50:50.800
that they don't really fit it like a nice category, like it's etiquette for social media or etiquette for
00:50:56.240
parties, but that the rules that sort of rules for life that you really liked?
00:51:00.900
Well, I have some real issues about men's toes and, and people showing their feet in public. I don't
00:51:08.760
understand men who are just in flip-flops and serious, in serious places. So when, when one
00:51:15.960
person said that you shouldn't wear flip-flops where you can't swim, I really liked that as a, I think
00:51:22.760
that was a lesson that their father had taught, taught him. And I think I, but the reason I say that is
00:51:28.320
that it, it indicates something more, you know, people propping their feet up and, you know,
00:51:33.580
putting them on seats opposite themselves. And when they're on the train or just in other places,
00:51:38.820
I'm, I'm very aware of feet for some reason. I think one thing about this book was about being
00:51:43.680
more tolerant in a lot of ways, but I'm still very sensitive to, to feet for whatever reason,
00:51:50.000
people talked about spitting. So I, I should say, I asked a handful of people, young men,
00:51:56.400
middle-aged men, older men about what they, questions and opinions they had about manners
00:52:01.480
today, things that bothered them, questions they had, things they continue to do. You know,
00:52:06.740
a lot of people asked about what, you know, etiquette with women that, when is it outdated
00:52:12.540
or when should you be opening doors or pulling out chairs? And that's a really tricky thing.
00:52:17.520
And I know the world has changed in a lot of ways, but sometimes it is nice to still do those
00:52:22.440
things. And I don't feel it shows that you're behind the times. I think we're all kind
00:52:26.000
of struggling to balance the best of traditional manners that are worth bringing forward and when
00:52:31.820
things need to evolve and to be a little bit less formal. So I'm, I'm all for opening doors and,
00:52:39.580
and definitely offering the best seat in the house to whomever you're with, even if it's a man.
00:52:45.280
Yeah. Um, so David has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book?
00:52:50.180
Well, the best way still is the old fashioned amazon.com. I mean, that's a world we live in
00:52:55.580
a handful of places where I've done book events have signed copies of the book, like Sid Mashburn
00:53:00.460
and Stag and great store in Austin. And there are going to be some at J press here in New York and
00:53:06.840
at three lives bookstore in New York, they'll have signed copies of the book, but the best way to get
00:53:11.240
it, amazon.com. You can see the books, the images from it. And it's just a part of our lives,
00:53:16.860
like everything else in the changing world. Yeah. Amazon. Yeah. I got a love hate relationship
00:53:21.200
with Amazon, but that's another conversation. David Coggins. Thank you so much for your time.
00:53:25.680
It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Really appreciate it, Brent. My guest today was David Coggins. He's
00:53:29.140
the author of the book men and manners is available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. Check out
00:53:33.420
his Instagram feed at David R Coggins or on Twitter at David R Coggins as well. Also check out our show
00:53:38.880
notes at aom.is slash men and manners. We can find links to resources. We can delve deeper into this topic.
00:53:46.860
Well, that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,
00:54:00.440
make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com and enjoy the podcast. I
00:54:04.660
appreciate it. You give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher helps that a lot. As always,
00:54:07.840
thank you for your support. Until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.