The Art of Manliness - #429： Taking Control of the Brain Chemical That Drives Excitement, Motivation, and More

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00:01:12.800 Brett McKay here,

00:01:28.260 and welcome to another edition

00:01:29.060 of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:01:30.680 Now, why is it you feel so motivated

00:01:32.180 and excited about tackling a new project at first,

00:01:34.400 but then get bored and abandon it?

00:01:36.080 Why does passionate love

00:01:37.400 often quickly turn into ambivalence?

00:01:39.120 And why does it feel like you had more zest

00:01:40.560 for life and work in your 20s

00:01:42.180 than you do in your 30s and 40s?

00:01:43.920 Well, much of the answer can be found

00:01:45.160 in a single chemical in your brain

00:01:46.620 called dopamine.

00:01:48.200 That's the case today's guests make, at least.

00:01:49.980 Their names are Daniel Lieberman and Michael Long,

00:01:51.900 and they're the co-authors of a new book

00:01:53.200 entitled The Molecule of More,

00:01:55.080 How a Single Chemical in Your Brain

00:01:56.300 Drives Love, Sex, and Creativity.

00:01:58.200 Daniel is a professor of psychiatry

00:01:59.420 at George Washington University,

00:02:00.780 and Michael is a trained physicist turned writer.

00:02:02.980 In The Molecule of More,

00:02:03.820 they team up to explore a chemical

00:02:05.120 that compels us towards achieving our goals,

00:02:06.920 but also towards addiction.

00:02:08.280 We begin our conversation discussing the situations

00:02:10.320 in which dopamine plays a role in our lives,

00:02:12.200 how it's made,

00:02:13.000 and how dopamine levels change

00:02:14.140 throughout our lifetimes.

00:02:15.300 We then discuss how dopamine drives

00:02:16.740 our endless search for novelty

00:02:17.940 and the problems this can cause

00:02:19.580 if we don't learn how to switch

00:02:20.700 from the excitement of anticipating something

00:02:22.300 to enjoying it in the here and now.

00:02:24.480 Daniel and Michael then walk us through

00:02:25.840 dopamine's role in addiction

00:02:26.860 to things like porn and drugs

00:02:28.300 and the differences between desire dopamine

00:02:30.220 and control dopamine.

00:02:31.800 Along the way, they share insights

00:02:33.040 on how to harness your dopamine

00:02:34.180 so it works towards your greater goals

00:02:35.740 rather than against them.

00:02:36.840 If you love the thrill of the chase,

00:02:37.980 but have a hard time transitioning

00:02:39.320 from pursuing something

00:02:40.320 to actually building it,

00:02:41.440 this is the podcast for you.

00:02:43.000 After the show's over,

00:02:43.880 check out our show notes

00:02:44.780 at aom.is slash dopamine

00:02:46.560 where you can find links to resources

00:02:48.140 where you delve deeper into this topic.

00:03:02.380 Daniel Lieberman, Michael Long,

00:03:04.160 welcome to the show.

00:03:05.220 Thanks so much, Brad.

00:03:06.800 Thanks much.

00:03:08.260 All right, so you two co-wrote a book

00:03:10.100 called The Molecule of More,

00:03:12.540 How a Single Chemical in Your Brain

00:03:14.000 Drives Love, Sex, and Creativity

00:03:15.660 and Will Determine the Fate of the Human Race.

00:03:18.060 All right, that is apocalyptic there.

00:03:20.260 It's a big title.

00:03:21.460 At least we didn't pick a big topic.

00:03:23.220 Right, right.

00:03:24.160 So it's about dopamine.

00:03:25.560 Before we get into exactly what dopamine is,

00:03:28.320 I thought it was interesting

00:03:28.840 how you started the book

00:03:29.680 because you really didn't talk about dopamine

00:03:31.040 from the get-go.

00:03:31.640 You talked about two ways

00:03:34.000 in which we interact with the world.

00:03:35.800 One is extra-personal

00:03:37.260 and the other is peri-personal.

00:03:39.940 What are the differences between the two

00:03:41.440 and why is it important to understand that distinction

00:03:43.360 for us to understand dopamine?

00:03:45.480 Well, peri-personal refers to

00:03:47.760 processing things in the space

00:03:49.800 immediately around you,

00:03:51.480 basically within arm's length.

00:03:54.080 And then extra-personal is everything else.

00:03:57.000 And the reason why it's so important

00:03:59.040 is from an evolutionary point of view,

00:04:02.360 there's this fundamental difference

00:04:03.860 between resources that you have control over,

00:04:06.660 things in the peri-personal space,

00:04:08.580 and resources which you don't,

00:04:10.780 but you probably need.

00:04:12.620 And because this is such a fundamental distinction,

00:04:15.500 the brain evolved very different pathways

00:04:17.760 to deal with them.

00:04:19.280 And what's interesting is

00:04:20.800 that when we're working in one pathway

00:04:22.840 versus another,

00:04:24.000 we can behave almost like

00:04:26.260 a completely different person.

00:04:28.640 So what are some examples

00:04:29.300 of behaving differently?

00:04:30.580 Let's say we're thinking about

00:04:31.860 extra-personal space

00:04:32.980 compared to peri-personal.

00:04:34.560 Right.

00:04:35.300 So interacting with other people

00:04:37.180 socially is a peri-personal

00:04:40.300 kind of activity.

00:04:41.920 And when we do that,

00:04:43.080 we tend to be warm

00:04:44.340 and giving and generous.

00:04:47.140 On the other hand,

00:04:47.900 when we think about the future,

00:04:49.040 when we plan,

00:04:49.880 that's going to be

00:04:50.440 an extra-personal activity.

00:04:52.100 And we tend to think

00:04:53.880 much more practically,

00:04:55.980 what's going to be best

00:04:57.120 for my long-term future?

00:04:59.820 And so studies have shown

00:05:01.540 that if you need someone

00:05:03.340 to deliver punishment,

00:05:05.000 which is going to harm someone,

00:05:06.840 but ultimately have long-term benefits,

00:05:10.280 it's better to have them do it

00:05:11.740 from a distance

00:05:13.080 in a theoretical future-based model

00:05:15.860 than being, for example,

00:05:17.480 in the same room with them

00:05:18.960 in which it becomes

00:05:19.900 much more difficult.

00:05:20.840 I thought it was interesting,

00:05:22.400 some of the research you highlight

00:05:23.440 is that we shift

00:05:24.660 to extra-personal.

00:05:26.180 Like, if something's like

00:05:27.200 a certain distance from us,

00:05:28.320 if it's like more than 20 feet

00:05:29.800 or something like that,

00:05:30.440 then it's like that becomes

00:05:31.520 extra-personal,

00:05:32.880 an extra-personal experience.

00:05:34.360 Yep, that's correct.

00:05:35.460 Yeah, and we bring in

00:05:37.020 different brain circuits

00:05:38.540 and we behave in a different way.

00:05:41.060 It's important to understand

00:05:42.340 that when we talk about

00:05:43.180 at a distance,

00:05:44.200 this is literally

00:05:45.100 any kind of distance at all,

00:05:46.940 whether that's geographic

00:05:47.880 or in terms of time,

00:05:49.260 anything that's not

00:05:50.500 immediately under our control

00:05:52.200 in either of those capacities.

00:05:54.680 Another way to think

00:05:55.340 about the difference

00:05:56.160 between the peripersonal

00:05:57.760 and the extra-personal space

00:05:59.720 is that the peripersonal

00:06:01.960 is about true experience.

00:06:03.920 It's about a sensory moment.

00:06:05.840 The extra-personal

00:06:07.020 is about anticipation,

00:06:08.600 experience versus anticipation.

00:06:11.000 It's thinking about Christmas

00:06:12.360 versus opening the presents,

00:06:14.280 having the toys with you.

00:06:15.660 It's a vast difference

00:06:17.260 in the way you feel about something

00:06:18.940 if you think about that as a child.

00:06:21.140 Okay, yeah, that's a great point.

00:06:22.020 So this is where dopamine comes in.

00:06:23.480 So whenever we are

00:06:24.480 in that extra-personal experience,

00:06:26.980 dopamine is the driving neurotransmitter.

00:06:30.680 So let's talk about,

00:06:31.320 what is dopamine?

00:06:33.100 I just said it's a neurotransmitter,

00:06:34.360 but what exactly is a neurotransmitter?

00:06:36.080 So a neurotransmitter

00:06:37.000 is a chemical

00:06:37.780 that brain cells use

00:06:39.160 to communicate with one another.

00:06:41.600 The brain uses both electricity

00:06:43.500 and chemicals to process information.

00:06:46.440 Electricity is generally used

00:06:47.760 within a brain cell,

00:06:49.380 and then chemicals are used

00:06:50.880 to send a message

00:06:51.860 from one brain cell to another.

00:06:54.940 And the different brain chemicals,

00:06:56.620 different neurotransmitters,

00:06:58.160 each have their own jobs,

00:07:00.100 and they tend to be very specialized

00:07:01.800 and different from one another.

00:07:03.900 All right.

00:07:04.280 And so dopamine is the one

00:07:05.960 that helps us to anticipate

00:07:07.900 or think about that distance

00:07:09.860 or future sort of abstract stuff.

00:07:12.640 That's right.

00:07:13.500 You know,

00:07:14.260 I think that oftentimes

00:07:15.580 when people think about dopamine,

00:07:17.360 they think about it

00:07:18.260 as a pleasure chemical.

00:07:20.000 It's something that gives you

00:07:21.400 a hit or a rush of pleasure.

00:07:24.000 But what that pleasure

00:07:25.240 is designed to do

00:07:26.400 is to make you

00:07:27.480 want to do something again,

00:07:29.740 to want you make more of it.

00:07:31.580 And really what underlies

00:07:32.740 all of this

00:07:33.640 is maximizing future resources,

00:07:36.760 keeping you alive,

00:07:38.180 keeping your DNA

00:07:39.160 in the game reproducing.

00:07:41.720 So, okay.

00:07:42.620 So when does our brain

00:07:43.760 start producing dopamine?

00:07:45.520 Is it whenever we start

00:07:46.480 thinking about things

00:07:47.560 in our extra personal space?

00:07:49.360 Or is it at that moment

00:07:52.020 or before?

00:07:52.520 How does that happen?

00:07:53.240 Let's see.

00:07:54.240 So we're constantly

00:07:56.380 producing dopamine.

00:07:58.240 The question is,

00:07:59.100 when is it released

00:08:00.180 so that it can get

00:08:01.140 out of the cell

00:08:01.940 that produces it

00:08:02.880 and start interacting

00:08:04.420 with other brain cells

00:08:05.660 around it

00:08:06.480 to change the way

00:08:08.120 the brain is functioning.

00:08:10.400 And so dopamine

00:08:11.260 will be released

00:08:11.900 in response to a signal

00:08:13.900 from the environment,

00:08:15.540 a signal that tells the brain,

00:08:17.680 here's an opportunity

00:08:18.500 for you to maximize

00:08:19.760 future resources.

00:08:21.060 So one example

00:08:22.260 that we give

00:08:22.780 is walking down the street

00:08:23.840 and suddenly you notice

00:08:24.820 a new bakery

00:08:26.040 has opened up.

00:08:27.540 Or you open up your wallet

00:08:29.620 and you notice

00:08:30.300 you've got an extra

00:08:31.220 $20 bill there.

00:08:32.980 So it's really coming

00:08:34.220 generally from signals

00:08:36.080 from the environment.

00:08:38.060 Gotcha.

00:08:38.420 So you also talk about

00:08:39.640 in the book

00:08:40.080 this idea of reward

00:08:41.220 prediction error

00:08:42.100 and the role it plays

00:08:43.980 in dopamine production.

00:08:44.980 What is reward

00:08:45.980 prediction error

00:08:46.740 and why does that

00:08:47.980 kind of fuel

00:08:48.740 and really jack up

00:08:49.740 dopamine production?

00:08:50.440 Reward prediction error

00:08:51.800 is such an important

00:08:52.780 concept of the book

00:08:53.860 because it's one

00:08:55.640 of those things

00:08:56.460 that goes against

00:08:57.320 the idea of dopamine

00:08:59.000 being the pleasure molecule.

00:09:01.640 So dopamine

00:09:02.320 doesn't fire

00:09:03.320 when something good happens.

00:09:05.440 Dopamine only fires

00:09:06.640 when something

00:09:07.520 both good

00:09:08.220 and unexpected happens.

00:09:11.060 And the reason for that

00:09:12.300 is that when something

00:09:13.440 good happens

00:09:13.940 that we expect,

00:09:15.020 it's not a signal

00:09:16.140 to maximize

00:09:17.040 future resources.

00:09:18.780 And so dopamine

00:09:19.460 really isn't

00:09:20.500 interested in it.

00:09:22.300 And the problem

00:09:23.360 with that

00:09:24.000 is that

00:09:25.000 something that

00:09:25.960 triggers dopamine

00:09:26.640 once

00:09:27.400 may not trigger

00:09:28.900 it again

00:09:29.580 because once it's

00:09:30.960 expected,

00:09:31.560 we discount it,

00:09:32.720 so to speak.

00:09:33.480 No longer new,

00:09:35.060 no longer novel.

00:09:36.800 And if we

00:09:38.140 really become

00:09:39.060 too addicted

00:09:39.800 to the feeling

00:09:40.520 that dopamine

00:09:41.000 gives us,

00:09:42.020 we are constantly

00:09:43.200 chasing something new,

00:09:45.160 constantly dissatisfied,

00:09:46.620 every time

00:09:47.720 something that

00:09:48.260 we wanted

00:09:49.200 becomes something

00:09:50.360 that we have.

00:09:51.640 This reward prediction

00:09:53.080 error is the engine

00:09:54.780 of joy,

00:09:56.120 it's the engine

00:09:56.980 of imagination,

00:09:58.660 it's the engine

00:09:59.740 of every good thing

00:10:02.040 that comes along.

00:10:03.220 In the beginning

00:10:03.660 of the book,

00:10:04.080 we talk about romance,

00:10:05.580 and we talk about

00:10:06.480 a guy who's thinking

00:10:07.980 about the evening,

00:10:09.060 and he's going to go

00:10:09.740 meet a girl.

00:10:11.100 He hasn't seen a girl,

00:10:12.100 hadn't been on a date

00:10:12.800 in a long, long time,

00:10:13.820 and he imagines

00:10:15.160 how wonderful

00:10:15.700 this is going to be.

00:10:16.780 And so anything

00:10:17.380 he sees is unexpected

00:10:19.340 and new,

00:10:20.060 and so it's very exciting

00:10:21.200 to go on that date.

00:10:22.680 And when reward

00:10:23.540 prediction error,

00:10:24.140 when you begin

00:10:24.620 to understand

00:10:25.120 what the reward

00:10:25.920 is really going to be,

00:10:27.260 and the dopamine

00:10:27.920 thrill that you get

00:10:29.080 begins to trail off

00:10:30.200 over time

00:10:30.600 because there's

00:10:31.020 no longer any surprise,

00:10:32.440 the relationship

00:10:33.340 that you're in

00:10:34.000 begins to be

00:10:35.160 far less exciting.

00:10:36.660 This RPE

00:10:37.480 is nothing less

00:10:38.400 than the difference

00:10:39.080 between the excitement

00:10:39.920 of dating

00:10:40.480 and the indifference

00:10:42.300 as we describe it

00:10:43.400 toward the six

00:10:45.160 to 18 months

00:10:45.880 into a relationship.

00:10:47.260 The excitement

00:10:47.800 you feel from

00:10:48.640 I'm learning

00:10:49.520 something new

00:10:49.980 about this person.

00:10:50.620 I wonder what else

00:10:51.240 there is to know

00:10:51.840 begins to fade away

00:10:52.940 precisely because

00:10:54.360 the reward prediction

00:10:55.660 error is gone.

00:10:57.160 Dan can probably

00:10:57.700 amplify that

00:10:58.400 a little bit more.

00:10:59.640 Well, you know,

00:11:00.100 later in the book

00:11:00.700 we talk about

00:11:01.720 a patient in therapy

00:11:03.320 who is experiencing

00:11:05.320 the loss

00:11:06.760 of the dopamine hit

00:11:07.800 not 12 to 18 months later,

00:11:10.360 but as soon as

00:11:12.080 the woman he is pursuing

00:11:13.260 agrees to go home

00:11:14.720 with him

00:11:15.160 because as soon

00:11:16.920 as she says yes,

00:11:18.100 the future becomes

00:11:19.160 the present,

00:11:20.300 the extra personal

00:11:21.200 becomes the peripersonal,

00:11:23.080 dopamine shuts down,

00:11:24.740 and it's as if

00:11:25.800 she changes

00:11:26.620 in a blink of an eye

00:11:28.260 and he's no longer

00:11:29.100 interested.

00:11:30.240 If we can just

00:11:31.020 stay on this

00:11:31.560 for another moment,

00:11:32.580 there's a passage

00:11:33.580 which I have to say

00:11:34.340 I love in the book

00:11:35.200 about how George Costanza

00:11:37.100 and Mick Jagger

00:11:38.660 are exactly the same person.

00:11:40.160 Now, you know, Brett,

00:11:41.480 you know George Costanza

00:11:42.480 of course from Seinfeld,

00:11:43.940 right?

00:11:44.840 Of course.

00:11:45.200 And George,

00:11:45.540 all through the series,

00:11:47.840 he just wants

00:11:48.900 a girlfriend

00:11:49.700 who will love him.

00:11:50.720 That's all he wants.

00:11:51.860 But as soon as

00:11:52.680 he gets him,

00:11:53.800 what happens to George?

00:11:55.720 He's not interested anymore.

00:11:56.840 No interest whatsoever.

00:11:58.680 George is not interested.

00:12:00.480 George is living

00:12:01.360 for that dopamine hit

00:12:03.580 of pursuit,

00:12:05.020 pursuit,

00:12:05.560 more and more,

00:12:06.180 and as soon as he gets it,

00:12:07.540 that RPE,

00:12:08.620 boom,

00:12:08.820 he's got it.

00:12:09.820 There's nothing to be surprised by.

00:12:12.340 And now he moves into

00:12:13.240 that peripersonal experience

00:12:15.320 of sensory delights.

00:12:17.160 And they're not

00:12:17.620 too delightful to him.

00:12:18.820 He's not a very

00:12:19.480 here and now

00:12:20.140 kind of person.

00:12:21.500 And we talk about

00:12:22.620 Mick Jagger

00:12:23.700 in a parallel.

00:12:24.600 As Mick Jagger

00:12:25.180 told his biographer

00:12:26.220 that he'd been

00:12:27.020 with 4,000 women.

00:12:28.940 And it's clear

00:12:29.600 he's not about

00:12:30.500 sustaining a relationship

00:12:31.760 in the peripersonal space.

00:12:33.640 He's not about

00:12:34.320 the experience.

00:12:35.500 He's about the anticipation

00:12:36.800 and the pursuit.

00:12:38.200 And all this

00:12:38.940 is triggered

00:12:39.800 by the reward prediction error.

00:12:41.960 All right.

00:12:42.340 So let's reiterate,

00:12:43.640 dopamine isn't a pleasure

00:12:45.100 neurotransmitter

00:12:46.320 like a lot of people think.

00:12:47.240 It's just

00:12:47.620 it drives anticipation.

00:12:49.860 When things are unknown,

00:12:51.000 whether it's going to be

00:12:51.700 good or bad,

00:12:52.780 dopamine is what's

00:12:53.800 causing us to pursue

00:12:54.840 to figure that out.

00:12:56.200 Right?

00:12:56.460 It makes you want more.

00:12:58.380 It just makes you want more.

00:13:00.440 And that pursuit

00:13:01.320 is a highly

00:13:02.220 pleasurable

00:13:03.100 activity.

00:13:04.120 It's a feeling

00:13:05.120 unlike anything else.

00:13:07.400 And not only

00:13:08.120 does dopamine

00:13:08.700 give us the desire

00:13:09.840 to pursue things,

00:13:10.960 it also gives us

00:13:11.920 the energy

00:13:12.560 and the motivation.

00:13:14.340 And the ability.

00:13:15.360 Yeah.

00:13:15.740 And that's another reason

00:13:16.500 why it feels good

00:13:17.340 because, you know,

00:13:18.740 nobody likes to have

00:13:19.460 to push themselves

00:13:20.220 to do things

00:13:21.000 that they're not

00:13:21.560 interested in.

00:13:22.880 Dopamine gives us

00:13:23.660 a kind of an inclination

00:13:25.120 so that it doesn't

00:13:26.600 feel like work.

00:13:27.800 It feels like a joy

00:13:29.040 to get out there

00:13:30.480 and fight

00:13:31.180 for what you want.

00:13:32.060 You know,

00:13:32.960 if you've ever

00:13:33.840 written a piece

00:13:34.980 of any length

00:13:35.720 at all,

00:13:36.100 and I write

00:13:36.780 for a living,

00:13:37.800 it's much easier

00:13:39.080 to start a book

00:13:40.160 than it is

00:13:40.920 to keep writing

00:13:41.720 a book,

00:13:42.220 as we know,

00:13:43.560 between us.

00:13:44.500 And to finish a book

00:13:45.460 because up front,

00:13:46.280 it's all unknown.

00:13:47.660 It's all a mystery.

00:13:48.620 It's all exploration.

00:13:50.180 It's such fun,

00:13:51.580 such delight.

00:13:52.680 But as soon as

00:13:53.540 you've moved past

00:13:54.360 the anticipation

00:13:55.440 and now you're

00:13:56.140 doing the grunt work,

00:13:57.240 it's a different

00:13:58.140 kind of pleasure

00:13:58.940 and hopefully

00:13:59.520 you're the kind

00:14:00.040 of person

00:14:00.360 who can appreciate

00:14:00.980 that pleasure

00:14:01.540 because otherwise

00:14:02.140 it ain't getting done.

00:14:03.720 Right.

00:14:03.980 Well,

00:14:04.240 another very acute

00:14:06.060 example of reward

00:14:07.560 prediction error

00:14:08.300 in dopamine

00:14:08.840 is slot machines

00:14:09.880 are gambling,

00:14:10.720 right?

00:14:11.320 You don't know

00:14:12.420 whether you're

00:14:13.280 going to hit

00:14:13.480 a jackpot,

00:14:14.900 but you want

00:14:16.020 to find that out

00:14:16.860 and it feels good.

00:14:18.960 Dopamine is just

00:14:19.460 driving that

00:14:20.040 because you're

00:14:20.300 going to keep

00:14:20.600 cranking that thing

00:14:21.300 or pushing the button

00:14:22.060 until you get it.

00:14:24.640 Yeah,

00:14:24.840 that's right.

00:14:25.460 The technical term

00:14:26.540 for that is

00:14:27.260 a variable

00:14:28.460 reinforcement schedule.

00:14:30.080 And all that

00:14:31.040 means is that

00:14:31.800 the winning

00:14:32.260 is random.

00:14:33.960 So every time

00:14:35.060 it pays off,

00:14:36.300 it's unexpected.

00:14:37.900 And, you know,

00:14:38.540 that's part of

00:14:38.880 the dark side

00:14:39.340 of dopamine

00:14:39.800 that if somebody

00:14:41.360 knows how the

00:14:42.260 dopamine system

00:14:42.980 works,

00:14:43.480 that opens up

00:14:44.600 doors for

00:14:45.140 manipulation of

00:14:45.960 behavior.

00:14:47.100 Right.

00:14:47.200 I mean, I think,

00:14:47.680 you know,

00:14:47.920 email or social

00:14:48.800 media like plays

00:14:49.900 into that,

00:14:50.660 right?

00:14:51.420 We go and

00:14:52.180 check your email

00:14:52.700 and you don't

00:14:53.300 know if it's

00:14:53.720 going to be a

00:14:54.760 great email

00:14:55.200 or change your

00:14:55.660 life or it's

00:14:56.100 just going to be

00:14:56.440 another spam.

00:14:57.100 Yeah,

00:14:57.580 that's right.

00:14:58.220 And the people

00:14:59.160 who design

00:14:59.680 these social

00:15:00.240 media sites,

00:15:01.240 they know how

00:15:02.360 this works

00:15:03.000 and they bake

00:15:04.460 in addictive

00:15:05.300 features.

00:15:06.160 I was just reading

00:15:06.760 an article the

00:15:07.180 other day about

00:15:08.260 this new technology

00:15:09.480 we see on websites

00:15:10.200 called the infinite

00:15:10.960 scroll,

00:15:11.760 that no matter

00:15:12.340 how far down

00:15:13.220 you scroll,

00:15:14.100 there's always

00:15:14.940 something else

00:15:15.660 there.

00:15:16.540 And so the

00:15:16.960 dopamine system

00:15:17.720 is saying,

00:15:18.140 just scroll down

00:15:18.780 a little bit

00:15:19.140 more.

00:15:19.740 Who knows what

00:15:20.300 you're going to

00:15:20.760 find?

00:15:21.200 It might be

00:15:21.740 something important.

00:15:23.380 And before we

00:15:24.000 know it,

00:15:24.320 half an hour has

00:15:24.920 gone by and we

00:15:25.780 haven't gotten

00:15:26.200 anything done.

00:15:27.420 These examples

00:15:28.380 of the delight

00:15:29.700 of anticipation

00:15:31.600 driven by this

00:15:33.400 neurotransmitter,

00:15:34.660 it's all over the

00:15:35.960 place in popular

00:15:36.660 culture.

00:15:37.280 And the thing

00:15:37.760 that I think of

00:15:38.600 just at this

00:15:39.560 moment is the

00:15:40.560 musical The

00:15:41.260 Music Man.

00:15:42.460 And there's a

00:15:43.200 song in it called

00:15:44.340 The Wells Fargo

00:15:45.320 Wagon.

00:15:46.060 And they're all,

00:15:46.780 it's around the

00:15:47.380 turn of the 19th

00:15:48.120 and the 20th

00:15:48.740 century.

00:15:49.040 They're very

00:15:49.460 excited because

00:15:50.080 the Wells Fargo

00:15:51.080 Wagon is coming.

00:15:52.660 And each of the

00:15:53.340 singers says what

00:15:54.420 might be on it,

00:15:55.480 what might be on it

00:15:56.200 and the last

00:15:56.700 line is it could

00:15:57.960 be something for

00:15:58.880 someone who is no

00:15:59.760 relation or it

00:16:01.500 could be something

00:16:02.320 special just for me.

00:16:03.920 And they're just

00:16:04.540 waiting for that

00:16:05.320 wagon to get there.

00:16:06.540 And if you just

00:16:07.140 look at pop culture,

00:16:08.520 pretty much you throw

00:16:09.760 a dart, you're going

00:16:10.420 to hit something that

00:16:11.480 is about people

00:16:12.440 experiencing this

00:16:13.880 anticipatory chemical

00:16:15.560 reaction.

00:16:16.160 It just changes.

00:16:17.760 When you understand

00:16:18.340 this idea, it

00:16:19.280 transforms the way

00:16:20.260 you interpret the

00:16:21.480 culture and the

00:16:22.380 art around you

00:16:23.100 because you realize

00:16:23.620 you're watching

00:16:24.080 chemical reactions in

00:16:25.740 the brains of your

00:16:26.640 fellow man.

00:16:27.800 So dopamine, it

00:16:28.860 causes this chemical

00:16:29.800 reaction that

00:16:30.380 motivates us, gives

00:16:31.300 us drive, gives

00:16:32.420 us energy, makes

00:16:33.460 things feel

00:16:34.060 enjoyable to do.

00:16:35.640 So like as you

00:16:36.080 said, when you

00:16:36.420 first start something,

00:16:37.980 like you feel

00:16:38.600 excited about it

00:16:39.560 because dopamine is

00:16:40.320 driving that.

00:16:41.460 I'm curious, are

00:16:42.720 some people, I

00:16:44.260 guess would be the

00:16:44.760 right word, are

00:16:45.320 some people more

00:16:46.200 dopogenic than

00:16:47.160 others?

00:16:47.520 Do some people have

00:16:48.240 more inherent drive

00:16:49.360 because they have

00:16:50.340 more dopamine in

00:16:51.840 their system or they

00:16:52.620 respond better to

00:16:53.920 dopamine than other

00:16:54.720 people do?

00:16:56.740 Yes.

00:16:57.500 There's a clearly

00:16:58.500 delineated genetic

00:17:00.160 component to this.

00:17:01.900 And we know about

00:17:03.800 two things.

00:17:04.360 One thing is dopamine

00:17:05.080 receptors.

00:17:06.040 So after dopamine is

00:17:07.800 released by a brain

00:17:09.380 cell, it kind of

00:17:10.620 floats around in the

00:17:11.340 brain until it grabs

00:17:12.660 onto a receptor that

00:17:14.280 catches it and the

00:17:15.820 interaction of the

00:17:16.560 dopamine with the

00:17:17.300 receptor causes

00:17:18.520 changes in the

00:17:20.300 brain cell that the

00:17:21.440 receptor is sitting

00:17:22.500 on.

00:17:23.600 So some receptors

00:17:24.720 are very sensitive

00:17:25.720 and they cause big

00:17:27.020 brain changes.

00:17:28.020 Others are relatively

00:17:29.340 insensitive and not

00:17:30.800 a whole lot happens.

00:17:32.880 So people who have

00:17:33.640 these very sensitive

00:17:34.660 receptors, they are

00:17:36.540 what we call very

00:17:37.380 dopaminergic people.

00:17:39.160 And there are some

00:17:40.060 characteristic

00:17:40.860 personality features that

00:17:42.400 go along with that.

00:17:43.320 Let me jump in too and

00:17:45.860 say it's important to

00:17:46.960 remember through all

00:17:47.660 this that it's not

00:17:48.540 just, oh, isn't it

00:17:49.940 interesting that the

00:17:50.820 brain has a chemical

00:17:51.920 that makes you want

00:17:52.760 more?

00:17:53.400 You always have to

00:17:54.300 remember this flows

00:17:55.160 from the idea that

00:17:55.940 this began as a

00:17:57.680 survival thing.

00:17:59.220 You have to have, you

00:18:00.280 have to propagate the

00:18:01.040 species, you have to

00:18:02.100 have shelter, you have

00:18:03.320 to have food, and

00:18:04.460 none of those things

00:18:05.820 can be found unless

00:18:07.400 you seek them out.

00:18:08.640 They don't exist in the

00:18:10.280 peripersonal space.

00:18:11.500 If you sit here and

00:18:13.060 do nothing, you will

00:18:14.340 die.

00:18:15.260 And so this chemical

00:18:16.080 gives you pleasure when

00:18:18.280 you look for something

00:18:19.680 that is useful, when

00:18:20.780 you seek something

00:18:21.580 that's useful, when

00:18:22.540 you find something

00:18:23.500 that's useful.

00:18:24.880 And since, well, not

00:18:26.120 to get too far ahead,

00:18:27.160 but if it weren't for

00:18:28.820 this chemical, we

00:18:29.540 wouldn't seek out these

00:18:30.980 new things.

00:18:31.580 Now, it turns out that

00:18:32.380 in the process of

00:18:33.140 seeking other new

00:18:33.940 things, we end up

00:18:34.960 creating progress as a

00:18:36.440 species.

00:18:37.220 There's more to

00:18:37.900 finding, there's more

00:18:39.340 things to find than

00:18:40.360 just food and

00:18:41.000 shelter and sex, but

00:18:42.340 it is an absolute

00:18:43.540 evolutionary imperative

00:18:45.020 and without it, we

00:18:46.140 would sit here on a

00:18:47.160 rock and fade away if

00:18:48.480 we had even made it

00:18:49.280 that far.

00:18:50.520 So, Daniel, you

00:18:51.440 were talking about

00:18:51.820 some behavior

00:18:52.340 characteristics of

00:18:53.020 people who are

00:18:53.600 sensitive to

00:18:54.660 dopamine.

00:18:55.000 What are some of

00:18:55.480 those characteristics

00:18:56.080 that we often see

00:18:57.180 in people who are

00:18:57.640 highly sensitive to

00:18:58.680 dopamine?

00:19:00.180 It's a little

00:19:00.840 complex, and the

00:19:02.240 reason is that, as

00:19:03.200 we speak about in

00:19:03.780 the book, there are

00:19:04.680 different dopamine

00:19:05.480 pathways in the brain

00:19:07.040 that do different

00:19:08.220 things.

00:19:09.080 They all have one

00:19:10.620 thing in common, and

00:19:11.320 that is that they're

00:19:11.940 designed to maximize

00:19:13.160 future resources, but

00:19:15.040 they go about it in

00:19:15.940 different ways.

00:19:17.460 And what the

00:19:18.380 personality

00:19:18.980 characteristics are

00:19:19.880 going to look like

00:19:20.760 have a lot to do

00:19:22.340 with which pathway

00:19:23.680 is involved, but

00:19:24.820 also, of course, we

00:19:25.800 want to make sure that

00:19:26.460 we don't oversimplify

00:19:27.480 the human mind.

00:19:28.940 It's not just the

00:19:30.320 chemicals that we're

00:19:32.460 born with, the genes

00:19:33.400 that we're born with

00:19:34.260 that have an effect.

00:19:35.400 It's also what

00:19:36.420 happened to us over

00:19:37.640 the course of our

00:19:38.380 lives, what were

00:19:39.520 the environmental

00:19:40.420 influences, and

00:19:41.920 what were the

00:19:42.420 choices that were

00:19:43.300 made.

00:19:44.500 That said, we do

00:19:46.140 see some

00:19:47.020 characteristic effects.

00:19:49.200 Someone who is

00:19:49.760 very dopaminergic

00:19:51.020 can be impulsive

00:19:52.600 and pleasure-seeking.

00:19:54.480 They may find it

00:19:55.680 difficult to restrain

00:19:56.620 themselves when

00:19:58.040 they see something

00:19:59.080 that's setting off

00:20:00.100 dopamine, something

00:20:01.420 that they want.

00:20:02.920 Other people who

00:20:03.860 are very dopaminergic

00:20:04.980 can be very long-term

00:20:08.560 thinkers.

00:20:09.580 They can be

00:20:10.000 unemotional and

00:20:11.140 detached, always

00:20:12.560 thinking about what's

00:20:13.900 going to be best for

00:20:14.860 my future and

00:20:16.480 neglecting their

00:20:17.680 present happiness.

00:20:19.620 Now, when dopamine

00:20:20.540 levels really get off

00:20:21.940 the charts, we can get

00:20:23.480 mental illness.

00:20:24.880 And the most famous

00:20:26.320 one that's associated

00:20:28.200 with a hyper-

00:20:28.760 dopaminergic state is

00:20:30.020 schizophrenia.

00:20:31.260 We can also see

00:20:32.500 attention deficit

00:20:33.480 disorder and bipolar

00:20:35.340 disorder associated

00:20:36.440 with this.

00:20:37.800 So, going into

00:20:38.180 two different types

00:20:39.960 of dopamine systems,

00:20:41.640 I think this is what

00:20:42.060 you're talking about

00:20:42.660 in the book.

00:20:43.280 You talk about

00:20:43.620 desired dopamine

00:20:44.560 and controlled

00:20:45.840 dopamine.

00:20:46.960 So, basically,

00:20:47.920 it's the same

00:20:48.900 dopamine, but it's

00:20:49.800 just that it's

00:20:50.340 different systems

00:20:51.000 that are being

00:20:51.500 used.

00:20:52.400 Exactly.

00:20:53.560 Yeah, we compare

00:20:54.580 it to fuel going

00:20:55.680 through a rocket

00:20:56.240 ship.

00:20:56.780 It can go through

00:20:57.660 the main thrusters.

00:20:59.120 It can steer the

00:21:00.000 ship.

00:21:00.300 It can go through

00:21:00.820 retro rockets to

00:21:01.860 slow it down.

00:21:02.680 the desired

00:21:04.020 dopamine is kind

00:21:05.020 of like the gas

00:21:05.620 pedal.

00:21:06.580 It's motivation.

00:21:08.260 It says, go, go, go,

00:21:09.700 go and get that.

00:21:11.180 The controlled

00:21:11.920 dopamine is based

00:21:14.380 on part of a more

00:21:15.440 evolutionarily new

00:21:16.600 part of the brain,

00:21:17.420 a little bit more

00:21:18.000 sophisticated.

00:21:19.360 And instead of just

00:21:19.980 going and grabbing

00:21:21.100 for things that we

00:21:22.100 want, it says, let's

00:21:23.900 think about this.

00:21:25.180 Let's decide if this

00:21:26.060 is a really good

00:21:26.880 idea.

00:21:27.860 And if it is,

00:21:29.100 let's use our

00:21:30.260 cognition to plan.

00:21:32.420 And take this one

00:21:33.720 step at a time to

00:21:35.320 really maximize our

00:21:36.980 resources in the

00:21:38.240 largest possible

00:21:39.100 way.

00:21:40.440 Well, I'm curious,

00:21:40.840 can you influence

00:21:41.860 whether you're using

00:21:43.520 desire dopamine

00:21:45.000 systems or controlled

00:21:45.900 dopamine systems?

00:21:46.500 Because on the one

00:21:47.000 hand, I think, man,

00:21:48.200 that'd be awesome if I

00:21:48.900 could just be like a

00:21:49.660 controlled dopamine

00:21:50.360 guy because it means

00:21:50.980 I can just focus on my

00:21:52.460 long-term goals.

00:21:53.480 I won't be distracted

00:21:54.440 by email or social

00:21:55.860 media or whatever,

00:21:57.360 those sort of quick

00:21:58.480 hits I get from

00:21:59.160 desire dopamine.

00:22:00.080 I mean, so can you

00:22:01.040 influence which systems

00:22:02.260 you turn on or off?

00:22:04.040 Well, you can take

00:22:04.720 drugs.

00:22:07.840 Unless you're Mr.

00:22:08.780 Spock, then you're

00:22:09.580 kind of got it turned

00:22:10.520 on, but sure, yeah.

00:22:12.040 But it's interesting

00:22:12.820 what drugs do.

00:22:13.440 So let's take somebody

00:22:14.360 who has ADHD,

00:22:15.940 attention deficit

00:22:16.520 disorder.

00:22:17.640 These are people who

00:22:18.620 tend to be very

00:22:19.240 impulsive and they

00:22:20.900 have difficulty focusing

00:22:22.380 and concentrating.

00:22:23.880 So these are people

00:22:25.260 who have an imbalance

00:22:26.460 between desired

00:22:28.100 dopamine, which is

00:22:29.320 making them impulsive,

00:22:30.900 and controlled

00:22:31.920 dopamine, they've got

00:22:33.180 a deficit there, which

00:22:34.720 is making it hard for

00:22:35.840 them to make long-term

00:22:37.640 plans.

00:22:38.860 So we give them

00:22:40.060 stimulant medication,

00:22:41.640 drugs like Adderall or

00:22:43.180 Ritalin, to boost the

00:22:45.040 dopamine in the control

00:22:46.760 circuit.

00:22:47.860 And that does exactly

00:22:49.100 what you described.

00:22:50.840 It makes them less

00:22:51.820 impulsive.

00:22:52.320 It makes them take a

00:22:53.620 longer-term view.

00:22:55.400 It makes them able to

00:22:56.480 focus and concentrate on

00:22:58.000 things that can be

00:22:59.580 challenging.

00:23:00.860 But there is a

00:23:01.640 downside, and that is

00:23:03.380 that when you have too

00:23:04.760 much controlled

00:23:05.600 dopamine, it suppresses

00:23:07.480 your creativity.

00:23:09.060 It suppresses the

00:23:10.080 ability of your brain

00:23:11.420 to make connections

00:23:14.120 that on the surface

00:23:15.580 appear to be completely

00:23:17.500 unrelated.

00:23:19.020 Because controlled

00:23:19.720 dopamine is so logical

00:23:21.580 and rational.

00:23:23.140 So I had a patient

00:23:24.020 come in who had

00:23:25.120 attention deficit

00:23:25.880 disorder, and he was

00:23:27.380 a very successful

00:23:28.480 serial entrepreneur.

00:23:30.760 Very creative, all

00:23:32.160 kinds of wonderful

00:23:32.980 ideas, but he was

00:23:34.720 late for meetings, he

00:23:35.860 couldn't keep a

00:23:36.440 calendar, he was

00:23:37.240 always losing his

00:23:38.160 cell phone, he

00:23:39.280 couldn't read

00:23:40.000 difficult material.

00:23:41.680 We talked, and we

00:23:43.440 actually decided that

00:23:44.780 we would not

00:23:45.560 medicate him, because

00:23:47.320 he had assistants who

00:23:49.320 could take care of the

00:23:50.800 details of his life.

00:23:52.620 The most important

00:23:53.340 thing for him was to

00:23:55.000 maintain his ability to

00:23:56.500 think creatively and

00:23:58.260 come up with new

00:23:59.160 ideas.

00:24:00.680 So yeah, it sounds like

00:24:01.660 controlled dopamine is

00:24:03.120 good, and it is in most

00:24:04.200 situations, it keeps us

00:24:05.360 out of trouble, but we

00:24:07.180 have to remember that

00:24:08.480 balance is usually the

00:24:10.140 best thing.

00:24:11.240 So I imagine regular

00:24:12.920 people who don't have

00:24:13.700 ADHD, taking Adderall or

00:24:16.120 something like that is not

00:24:16.480 going to do anything for

00:24:17.240 them, or will it?

00:24:19.500 You know, it'll make it

00:24:21.240 a little bit easier for

00:24:22.240 them to focus and

00:24:22.900 concentrate.

00:24:23.500 It's not going to do a

00:24:24.220 whole lot.

00:24:24.880 You know, a lot of

00:24:25.540 college students abuse

00:24:27.140 it because they think

00:24:28.700 it's going to help them

00:24:29.380 get better grades.

00:24:30.800 It actually doesn't.

00:24:32.060 When we randomize

00:24:33.200 people, they don't get

00:24:34.560 better grades.

00:24:35.300 All it does is make

00:24:36.700 things a little bit

00:24:37.620 easier.

00:24:38.400 It's kind of like taking

00:24:39.240 the escalator instead of

00:24:40.660 the stairs, and not

00:24:42.460 surprisingly, it weakens

00:24:44.640 those psychic muscles, so

00:24:47.180 to speak, that students

00:24:48.940 really need to motivate

00:24:50.060 themselves.

00:24:50.880 Not a good idea.

00:24:52.440 So we've talked about

00:24:53.240 there's, you know,

00:24:53.640 genetic differences.

00:24:54.680 Some people just have a

00:24:56.080 tendency, they're highly

00:24:56.880 sensitive to dopamine,

00:24:57.700 so they're very, like,

00:24:58.740 they're seeking,

00:25:00.280 creative, they're just

00:25:02.080 jumping from one idea

00:25:02.860 to the next.

00:25:03.420 They might be hyperactive.

00:25:04.880 Some people are, you

00:25:05.820 know, less so.

00:25:07.080 I'm curious, does dopamine

00:25:08.480 sensitivity production

00:25:10.040 change throughout

00:25:11.160 someone's lifetime?

00:25:12.140 Are there some periods

00:25:13.160 of your life where you're

00:25:13.840 more sensitive or create

00:25:15.620 more dopamine than

00:25:16.300 others?

00:25:17.580 Yeah, we seem to create

00:25:18.860 the most in our 20s.

00:25:21.620 Interestingly, that's also

00:25:22.640 when we produce the most

00:25:23.860 testosterone, which is

00:25:25.980 responsible for

00:25:26.880 aggression.

00:25:28.140 So we've got this

00:25:29.340 combination of aggression

00:25:30.380 and motivation, and

00:25:33.000 that's why people in

00:25:33.940 their 20s, when they're

00:25:35.200 just starting out their

00:25:36.020 life, trying to put

00:25:36.800 together a career, they've

00:25:38.900 got the energy it takes to

00:25:40.560 overcome all kinds of

00:25:41.820 obstacles.

00:25:42.380 As we get older, the

00:25:45.220 desire of dopamine in

00:25:46.780 particular starts to go

00:25:48.180 down.

00:25:49.560 And for most people,

00:25:50.880 creativity starts to fall.

00:25:53.240 And, you know, we start

00:25:54.480 working smarter rather than

00:25:56.520 harder.

00:25:57.680 We do become more and more

00:25:58.820 effective as we get older

00:25:59.900 because wisdom really

00:26:01.840 outweighs the raw

00:26:03.580 motivation and desire of

00:26:05.380 dopamine.

00:26:06.200 But there are things that are

00:26:07.520 lost along the way.

00:26:08.620 So if you're in your 20s,

00:26:10.020 take advantage of that.

00:26:12.560 Yeah, that's right.

00:26:13.720 Work hours.

00:26:14.580 This is your big chance.

00:26:15.500 It's your big chance.

00:26:16.100 And if you're past that

00:26:17.320 time, well, you just got to

00:26:18.200 work smart now.

00:26:18.960 Well, you know, you look at

00:26:19.960 the great discoveries in

00:26:21.180 science and the great

00:26:22.200 pieces of art, and not in

00:26:24.000 every case, but in many,

00:26:25.400 many cases, it's from

00:26:26.460 people in their late teens

00:26:28.020 and early 20s.

00:26:28.720 The great theories of

00:26:30.600 physics came from people

00:26:32.040 when they were around the

00:26:33.560 age of 20 or so.

00:26:35.400 Okay, so I'm not going to

00:26:37.020 be the next Einstein

00:26:37.640 because I'm 35.

00:26:39.340 All right, that's okay.

00:26:40.720 So let's talk about the

00:26:42.580 dopamine and how it

00:26:43.500 interacts with what you

00:26:45.000 call the here and now.

00:26:46.120 So yeah, we've been

00:26:46.660 talking about dopamine.

00:26:47.740 Let's talk about what you

00:26:48.540 guys call the here and now

00:26:49.680 neurotransmitters.

00:26:51.280 So these are the here and

00:26:52.420 now are the neurotransmitters

00:26:53.900 that we kind of use

00:26:55.900 whenever we're in that

00:26:56.820 parapersonal experience,

00:26:58.640 correct?

00:26:59.380 Yes.

00:26:59.680 That's right.

00:27:00.140 So what are the here and

00:27:00.980 now transmitters?

00:27:01.580 I imagine serotonin is one

00:27:03.040 of them.

00:27:04.100 Yeah, that's right.

00:27:04.720 You know, it's interesting

00:27:05.340 that for the future, we've

00:27:06.460 just got that one

00:27:07.280 neurotransmitter, dopamine.

00:27:09.020 But for the here and now,

00:27:10.880 we've got a large

00:27:12.160 collection of them.

00:27:13.800 Pretty much everything

00:27:14.600 else.

00:27:15.400 Yeah.

00:27:16.060 I think the reason for that

00:27:17.180 is because the here and

00:27:18.360 now is about reality.

00:27:19.600 When we are living in the

00:27:21.240 future, we're living in

00:27:23.000 what we call a world of

00:27:24.300 ghosts and phantoms,

00:27:25.680 things that might be but

00:27:27.760 aren't yet.

00:27:28.580 And that's the world a lot

00:27:30.740 of people just live in all

00:27:31.640 the time.

00:27:32.020 They're constantly planning.

00:27:33.280 They're constantly thinking

00:27:33.920 about what's next.

00:27:35.480 They're missing the here and

00:27:37.160 now, the reality.

00:27:39.060 So at any rate, yeah, we've

00:27:39.980 got serotonin.

00:27:41.160 Serotonin is kind of a

00:27:41.960 chemical that tells us

00:27:43.000 everything's A-OK.

00:27:44.920 Kind of the opposite of

00:27:46.040 dopamine, which tells us

00:27:47.540 things are not OK.

00:27:48.820 You need to go out and kill

00:27:50.540 a woolly mammoth or get a

00:27:52.240 new job.

00:27:53.440 Serotonin says everything's

00:27:54.900 fine.

00:27:56.220 We've got oxytocin and

00:27:58.400 vasopressin, which are

00:28:00.440 responsible for social

00:28:01.880 interactions.

00:28:03.240 Women primarily use

00:28:04.280 oxytocin.

00:28:05.560 Men use vasopressin.

00:28:07.820 And we also talk about

00:28:09.380 norepinephrine, which is the

00:28:11.300 fight or flight

00:28:12.280 neurotransmitter.

00:28:13.440 That's kind of the panic

00:28:14.620 button where you just need

00:28:15.780 to act in the present

00:28:17.220 without thinking, without

00:28:19.040 planning.

00:28:20.340 And then we've got the

00:28:21.640 true pleasure molecules,

00:28:24.400 the ones that are not

00:28:25.500 responsible so much for

00:28:26.780 quick hits, but for

00:28:28.880 enduring joy and

00:28:30.460 happiness.

00:28:31.800 And those are the

00:28:32.380 endorphins and the

00:28:33.560 endocannabinoids.

00:28:35.780 You mentioned

00:28:36.280 vasopressin and

00:28:37.420 oxytocin.

00:28:38.980 You say that men use

00:28:39.920 vasopressin.

00:28:40.820 What's the difference

00:28:41.800 between the two?

00:28:42.600 Do men experience

00:28:44.240 something differently than

00:28:45.300 women because they're using

00:28:46.040 a different neurotransmitter

00:28:47.160 primarily?

00:28:48.420 It doesn't seem like it.

00:28:50.020 It seems like, for

00:28:51.020 reasons we don't quite

00:28:51.820 understand, it just

00:28:53.260 evolved that way.

00:28:54.560 The brain, the body is

00:28:57.440 very efficient.

00:28:58.260 It likes to reuse things.

00:29:00.480 Women use vasopressin to

00:29:02.400 produce milk when they're

00:29:03.860 nursing.

00:29:04.920 And so I think the body

00:29:06.060 just decided we're going

00:29:07.540 to use this for social

00:29:09.180 connection as well.

00:29:10.820 But the results are pretty

00:29:12.220 much the same.

00:29:13.460 When you release this, you

00:29:15.520 tend to feel feelings of

00:29:17.980 closeness and warmth to

00:29:20.140 people you're connected to.

00:29:22.500 And so sometimes it's been

00:29:23.740 called the cuddle drug.

00:29:25.980 What is not emphasized so

00:29:28.660 much, though, is that it

00:29:29.880 also creates hostility to

00:29:32.180 people who are outside of

00:29:33.880 your group.

00:29:35.040 So it's not only the cuddle

00:29:36.460 drug, it's also the racism

00:29:38.660 chemical.

00:29:39.960 We're going to take a quick

00:29:40.400 break for you.

00:29:40.880 Where's more sponsors?

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00:32:13.620 Interesting.

00:32:14.060 Okay.

00:32:14.480 So let's talk about this,

00:32:16.160 the interaction between

00:32:16.900 dopamine and these here and

00:32:18.240 now.

00:32:18.900 So, you know, Michael, you

00:32:19.900 were mentioning Costanza,

00:32:21.920 George Costanza, right?

00:32:23.040 Right.

00:32:23.240 In love, he's always looking

00:32:24.540 for a woman to love him.

00:32:26.520 Whenever he finally happens,

00:32:28.440 he gets what he wants, he's

00:32:30.400 done.

00:32:30.680 Like he'd rather have his

00:32:31.560 fiancee die, right?

00:32:33.940 Than actually be in a

00:32:35.360 relationship.

00:32:35.700 So how do you prevent that?

00:32:38.580 Say you want a long

00:32:39.680 lasting relationship.

00:32:40.620 How do you switch over from,

00:32:42.460 say, this dopamine driven

00:32:43.780 desire to more of a here and

00:32:46.840 now long enduring romantic

00:32:49.420 love?

00:32:50.480 Well, one of the things you

00:32:51.140 can do is actually reinforce

00:32:52.960 the here and now experience

00:32:54.240 with miniature recreations of

00:32:57.060 the dopamine experience.

00:32:58.460 You can do things together that

00:33:00.440 have surprises attached to

00:33:02.280 them.

00:33:02.640 Like let's go to a place

00:33:04.040 together we haven't been

00:33:05.140 before.

00:33:05.720 Let's go skydiving.

00:33:07.780 Let's find an activity that we

00:33:10.340 both are unfamiliar with so we

00:33:12.220 can experience that reward

00:33:14.720 prediction error together.

00:33:16.440 That's one way to do it for

00:33:18.260 sure.

00:33:19.240 I think, though, that at the

00:33:20.780 same time, part of maturity is

00:33:23.620 moving beyond the quick

00:33:24.920 dopamine hits and being able to

00:33:27.640 appreciate the here and now of

00:33:29.920 what we have.

00:33:31.320 The problem comes when people

00:33:32.760 don't understand that dopamine

00:33:34.760 extinguishes itself.

00:33:37.060 Once reward prediction error is no

00:33:40.080 longer an error, once we know what

00:33:41.480 to expect, dopamine is gone and

00:33:44.540 people who keep chasing that

00:33:46.320 rush are never going to be

00:33:48.500 happy.

00:33:49.500 So I think that it begins with an

00:33:51.000 acceptance that dopamine is a

00:33:52.800 beginning, but it's not going to

00:33:54.600 last forever.

00:33:55.700 We have to accept the fact that we

00:33:57.120 need to find that replacement.

00:33:59.360 I think it's important to just to

00:34:01.760 second that idea.

00:34:03.880 There's simple education.

00:34:06.380 If you've grown up believing that

00:34:08.100 love is romance and that's the

00:34:10.200 whole thing, you're going to be in

00:34:12.460 a world of hurt.

00:34:13.640 If you're so hooked on that, that

00:34:15.720 you can't recognize that this is

00:34:16.900 actually going to be work or, as

00:34:19.180 some people put it, a decision.

00:34:21.400 My father was a pastor.

00:34:22.560 I was raised in a religious home

00:34:24.000 and that was a phrase that was

00:34:26.060 used a lot in my childhood is

00:34:28.040 love is ultimately a decision that

00:34:30.480 you make.

00:34:31.740 And I think that's vital if you're

00:34:33.340 going to have a sustained

00:34:34.540 relationship to make a choice.

00:34:36.300 Now, the thing that we've said in

00:34:37.380 the book, I think, can help

00:34:38.440 somebody accept that change.

00:34:40.660 They'll understand there is a

00:34:42.120 reason you can't pursue the brass

00:34:44.360 ring forever and be truly

00:34:45.620 satisfied.

00:34:47.180 And the joys associated with a

00:34:49.680 enduring here and now

00:34:51.220 relationship can be pretty

00:34:53.280 intense.

00:34:54.320 It's been described as the joy of

00:34:56.980 having your life deeply entwined

00:34:59.400 with someone else.

00:35:01.240 If you're with one person for an

00:35:03.040 extended period of time, you get to

00:35:04.760 know them on a very deep level.

00:35:06.960 You become more and more

00:35:08.620 comfortable with them.

00:35:10.720 You understand one another.

00:35:12.640 There's almost like this telepathy.

00:35:15.020 And that's a very joyful thing that

00:35:17.220 is different from the dopamine rush

00:35:19.460 of pleasure.

00:35:20.480 So the goal is to make that

00:35:23.180 decision and just, I think,

00:35:24.720 understanding that you're going to

00:35:25.800 have this rush in the beginning of

00:35:27.840 the relationship.

00:35:28.420 Eventually, it's going to wear off

00:35:29.640 because the newness, the reward

00:35:32.320 prediction error no longer exists.

00:35:34.680 You know that this person's here with

00:35:36.180 you, doping will extinguish itself.

00:35:39.140 So I think understanding that can

00:35:40.680 just go a long way to helping people

00:35:42.100 understand like, okay, this is

00:35:43.040 normal.

00:35:43.740 Now the real work begins, right?

00:35:46.660 Yes, we all know it at some level,

00:35:49.280 but I think understanding that there

00:35:51.040 is a chemical foundation for it is

00:35:53.760 like having the light turned on.

00:35:55.580 You're not going to be the one to

00:35:57.040 beat it because nobody's going to

00:35:58.640 beat this.

00:35:59.900 And it's one thing to be aware of how

00:36:01.700 the world works, but to know this is

00:36:03.500 how you're wired.

00:36:05.060 This is how evolution has guided

00:36:07.800 you to be.

00:36:08.680 And there's a purpose behind it.

00:36:11.260 Understanding is such a powerful tool

00:36:14.140 in changing your life.

00:36:16.440 And this book gives you a way to

00:36:19.100 understand the things you do in a

00:36:21.920 rather straightforward way, I think.

00:36:24.560 Understanding is important because

00:36:26.540 when that dopamine rush wears off,

00:36:30.360 when you fall in love with someone,

00:36:32.020 you don't want to fall into the trap

00:36:34.920 of saying, well, maybe I'm not in

00:36:36.860 love with this person anymore.

00:36:38.700 If you know that the nature of the

00:36:40.860 relationship is going to change,

00:36:42.980 you can start looking for those other

00:36:44.940 things.

00:36:46.780 Because as much as we like dopamine,

00:36:49.760 we also like the familiar.

00:36:51.580 We like going to the same restaurant,

00:36:54.380 the same bar over and over again.

00:36:56.580 We love the friends that we've had for

00:36:58.600 decades and decades.

00:36:59.840 And so just knowing that we need to

00:37:02.900 shift and start looking for a different

00:37:04.700 kind of pleasure will rescue us from

00:37:07.560 saying, oh gosh, this relationship must

00:37:09.480 be over.

00:37:10.280 Well, let's talk about dopamine and say

00:37:11.660 work or like life goals we have.

00:37:13.460 Michael, you mentioned you're a writer.

00:37:15.200 The best part of a book is starting the

00:37:17.680 book.

00:37:18.440 Oh, yeah.

00:37:19.280 What do you, I mean, what do both of you

00:37:20.800 do with your work whenever, okay, the

00:37:22.380 rush of starting something new wears off?

00:37:24.240 Like what neurotransmitter or what are we

00:37:27.780 using to keep us working on the book when

00:37:29.880 we no longer have that, when dopamine has

00:37:32.560 extinguished itself?

00:37:34.040 Well, now I'll leave it to Dan.

00:37:36.140 Dan is the, Dan is the physician.

00:37:37.860 So I'll leave the particular identification of

00:37:39.920 the neurotransmitter to him.

00:37:40.980 But I will say that the pleasure of writing

00:37:43.240 this book with Dan, and we've been friends for

00:37:45.480 20 years, I guess, about more or less, is when we

00:37:49.720 started to write it, there was a real thrill of

00:37:51.980 what it was like to imagine the research that

00:37:55.900 was going to go into it, the discovery of going

00:37:58.060 into it.

00:37:58.680 And that was, there were moments, in fact, you've

00:38:00.780 read the introduction.

00:38:01.660 We talk about exercising control and desire

00:38:04.100 dopamine at the Fridays around the corner near

00:38:06.360 the White House here, where we would talk about

00:38:08.400 the future.

00:38:09.540 That was one kind of pleasure.

00:38:11.060 And as we got to the point where we were working

00:38:13.260 on the text, at one point I remember we had more

00:38:16.340 than one disagreement, argument, debate about

00:38:19.480 individual phrases that would go for more than

00:38:23.160 an hour.

00:38:23.900 And it was a different kind of fun because it

00:38:26.020 wasn't about how's this going to come out.

00:38:28.120 It's about learning how his mind works and learning

00:38:31.020 how my mind works and finding a compromise in

00:38:33.580 there.

00:38:33.940 Now, I can leave it to my co-author to attach the

00:38:37.300 chemistry to it.

00:38:38.840 But definitely, it was not about anticipation

00:38:41.880 anymore.

00:38:42.940 It was about the pleasure of being with my friend and

00:38:46.900 learning more about him.

00:38:47.920 You know, when I think about this question, I think

00:38:51.600 about a side of dopamine we haven't talked about

00:38:54.280 yet.

00:38:55.640 Dopamine maximizes future resources.

00:38:57.980 We've been talking about how that comes about by

00:38:59.820 getting more.

00:39:01.360 But dopamine is also triggered when we are threatened

00:39:05.320 with less.

00:39:07.460 So, for example, if I'm walking down the street and I'm

00:39:10.960 suddenly confronted with, let's say, well, let's say I'm

00:39:13.460 a primitive man.

00:39:14.720 I'm confronted by a lion.

00:39:16.580 That's also going to trigger dopamine because that's going

00:39:19.080 to have a very powerful effect on my future well-being.

00:39:24.500 So, sometimes dopamine starts us out by painting a rosy

00:39:28.480 picture of the future.

00:39:29.740 But when that fades and we need to keep going, sometimes it's fear that keeps

00:39:36.160 us going.

00:39:37.040 What's going to happen to my future if I don't deliver this

00:39:40.400 manuscript?

00:39:42.400 And that's why a lot of people put things off to the last minute because the

00:39:48.340 only way they can get dopamine going is with fear.

00:39:51.100 The night before the paper is due is when they first crack that book.

00:39:54.960 Okay, that's really interesting.

00:39:57.340 So, I mean, I guess also kind of what you were saying, Michael, about you kind

00:40:01.940 of shifted to enjoying the process.

00:40:03.420 I mean, you hear a lot of people talking about that at a certain point with your

00:40:05.640 work or anything you do, you have to quit focusing on the goal, which I guess

00:40:10.180 would be the dopamine-driven part of our brain, and then just learn to enjoy the

00:40:14.580 process of working on whatever it is you're working on.

00:40:18.000 Well, I think that's true.

00:40:19.100 But we're also – there's something that we should address, and that's the

00:40:22.260 concept of mastery, there's a great deal of pleasure in exercising or executing

00:40:28.940 some program, if you will, along those control circuits, and that is a

00:40:35.020 dopaminergic phenomenon in a different way.

00:40:37.960 Gotcha.

00:40:38.720 So, let's talk about dopamine and this idea of miswanting.

00:40:46.180 So, this is something we've written about before on our site.

00:40:48.040 There's a difference between wanting something and liking something.

00:40:50.940 Because sometimes, you know, you want something really bad, and then you finally

00:40:54.320 get it, and then you find out, like, boy, I really don't like this.

00:40:58.100 So, I mean, is there anything we can do now that we understand dopamine's role and

00:41:01.860 reward prediction error to prevent us from miswanting?

00:41:05.800 Because that happens to a lot of people.

00:41:06.860 Like, you start – like, say there's a goal you think you want really bad.

00:41:09.800 It looks really enticing.

00:41:11.280 You work really hard to get it.

00:41:12.900 You finally get it, and you're like, boy, this was – this is not good.

00:41:16.080 I don't – I'm not enjoying this.

00:41:17.360 Well, this takes us toward addiction, but I'm reminded of a perfect example of this

00:41:23.520 in the book when we cite a moment from The Office with – you remember Will Ferrell came

00:41:28.200 in as the boss, and he played D'Angelo Vickers, and he's standing over a cake, and he announces

00:41:32.720 that he's lost something like 200 pounds.

00:41:35.740 And he looks at the cake, and he reaches in, and he grabs a bite of cake with his hand,

00:41:39.660 and he goes, you know what?

00:41:40.300 I deserve this.

00:41:41.140 And he starts to take a bite, and he throws it out, and he goes, no, no.

00:41:44.120 I don't need this.

00:41:45.480 I don't need this.

00:41:46.240 I'm not going to have this.

00:41:47.860 Oh, but I deserve it.

00:41:49.620 I'm going to have it.

00:41:50.060 He grabs a bite, and he keeps torn in the moment absolutely between I want this and I don't

00:41:56.340 like this.

00:41:57.400 And there's a huge difference, but the feeling is hard to distinguish.

00:42:02.020 I think it also raises an interesting philosophical question, the idea that what do we mean when

00:42:08.720 we say I?

00:42:10.080 You know, what is the I in I want this?

00:42:12.700 And I think that we have to remember that in some ways we are not our brain.

00:42:18.040 If our brain says, hey, I want to eat that pint of ice cream, we need to step back and

00:42:24.720 say, well, maybe circuits in my brain want to eat that pint of ice cream, but maybe me

00:42:31.240 as my essential being, whatever that might be, maybe I don't agree with those circuits

00:42:36.780 in my brain.

00:42:37.480 So I think that in some ways we need to take a step back and realize that just because certain

00:42:44.000 circuits in our brain are telling us to do something, that doesn't necessarily mean that's

00:42:49.120 what we actually want.

00:42:51.640 Wow, that's pretty deep.

00:42:52.740 Yeah.

00:42:52.920 So we are not our dopamine circuits necessarily.

00:42:56.000 We are not.

00:42:56.500 We benefit from them, but we've got to use them as a tool and we've got to use them wisely.

00:43:02.300 If there were just the desired dopamine circuit, then we would simply walk around in a state

00:43:09.420 of constant hoovering up everything we wanted.

00:43:13.040 The controlled dopamine not only gives us the ability to figure out how to get that thing,

00:43:17.960 but it tells us perhaps this isn't the moment to get it, or perhaps we should make another

00:43:23.540 kind of decision.

00:43:25.300 It's very easy to fall prey to that.

00:43:27.360 I want it.

00:43:27.820 I want it.

00:43:28.220 I want it.

00:43:28.840 And that can be, in the case of addiction, an overwhelming desire.

00:43:33.240 But the controlled dopamine gives us the opportunity to pause and reflect and say, you know what?

00:43:37.820 There may be a better answer.

00:43:39.480 So the wanting is so powerful.

00:43:42.180 And that's the first thing that comes to us as human beings.

00:43:45.400 And it's the control dopamine, the reflection that comes later.

00:43:51.640 And that's the thing that we're constantly struggling.

00:43:54.180 It's this battle between what do we actually like enough to act on the want?

00:43:59.300 Otherwise, we'd do nothing but want and see.

00:44:01.900 Well, let's talk about addictions that you brought that up.

00:44:03.960 I think it's a perfect example of miswanting, right?

00:44:06.460 You have this desire to use a drug, maybe look at porn, check the internet.

00:44:11.740 I mean, whatever it is, right?

00:44:12.860 But once you do it, you're like, this is terrible.

00:44:14.920 I don't like this.

00:44:15.920 I feel terrible.

00:44:16.800 Like drugs, especially, right?

00:44:18.640 You have the desire, you do it, and it just makes you feel like crap, and it can even kill you.

00:44:23.440 So why is it that drugs cause us to want things?

00:44:28.520 Does it just increase dopamine production?

00:44:30.540 What's going on with, say, a drug?

00:44:32.900 Dopamine is usually triggered by complex things going on in the brain.

00:44:37.080 So signals might come through the eyes of, let's say, I don't know, an ice cream cone.

00:44:42.880 And we process it, and eventually it trickles down to the dopamine system, which releases and creates wanting.

00:44:51.440 There's a lot of processing.

00:44:52.900 There's a lot of checks and balances.

00:44:55.080 Those are all bypassed with drugs.

00:44:57.860 Drugs go right to the center that produces dopamine, and it hits it and releases more dopamine than natural behaviors are able to.

00:45:06.680 And so really what we're doing is we are handicapping the brain.

00:45:12.220 We're bypassing all kinds of sophisticated, wonderful circuits we've developed through evolution, and we're kind of turning ourselves into much more primitive organisms with this direct chemical dopamine blast.

00:45:25.480 And I imagine, too, you talk about this, too, that dopamine blast causes a desensitization of dopamine receptors.

00:45:32.340 So it means that you require more dopamine or stronger hits of dopamine to actually get that feeling of desire that you were seeking in the first place.

00:45:41.420 That's right.

00:45:42.400 As good as it feels, brain cells don't like being overstimulated in that way.

00:45:47.500 So what they do is they desensitize the receptors, and it becomes harder and harder to stimulate it.

00:45:53.100 And then normal pleasures that we all get, talking with a friend, going out and having a nice dinner, they don't do anything because we've desensitized our dopamine system.

00:46:01.940 And eventually, you give up all ordinary pleasures, and all you want to do is stay at home and do drugs.

00:46:09.120 Because the need remains.

00:46:11.060 It takes more and more.

00:46:12.540 The returns are less and less.

00:46:14.060 And that's the heart of addiction.

00:46:15.420 When you talk about this, it only applies with drugs, like nicotine or cocaine or whatever, but even behaviors.

00:46:22.680 You talk about porn.

00:46:23.660 You devote a section to that.

00:46:25.320 This dopamine, whenever you look at porn, it hits a blast of dopamine.

00:46:30.360 But because it's so strong, it desensitizes the dopamine receptors.

00:46:33.800 So that means you need a bigger hit.

00:46:35.580 So that means you have to look for maybe kinkier stuff to get that same dopamine hit.

00:46:41.600 That's right.

00:46:42.100 You know, it's interesting, just this week, the World Health Organization officially designated sexual addiction as a medical illness.

00:46:50.440 And I think it was just a month ago or so that they designated video game addiction as a medical illness.

00:46:57.280 It's been controversial whether behavioral addictions are the same as chemical addictions.

00:47:02.440 But I think the World Health Organization's decisions is a sign that we're very much moving in the direction of treating them as being similar things.

00:47:13.420 I think it's important here.

00:47:14.940 This is the thing that we've talked about.

00:47:17.900 The role of dopamine is a great way to approach this idea of addiction as a broader kind of thing, as opposed to what my reaction often is.

00:47:28.040 It's, oh, now another problem that people have has been carted off and set aside as a disease that's beyond their control.

00:47:35.420 If we think about addiction not as, oh, and now we're looking for a list to fill in and another reason to excuse people's behavior, we can say the brain latches on to things that provide pleasure and encourages us to want them with less and less return about the experience.

00:47:52.880 And if we say it doesn't really matter what it is, you can become addicted within certain boundaries to virtually anything.

00:47:59.820 So it's not about pathologizing kids who play video games too much.

00:48:04.580 It's about the brain can latch on to almost anything and make it a problem by abuse of this dopamine system.

00:48:12.220 And that gets us away from the, oh, well, you're just excusing bad behavior.

00:48:16.560 It's an abuse of the system itself inside our head.

00:48:20.180 Well, so understanding how dopamine works, like what can people do to, you know, quash those addictions?

00:48:28.060 You know, we've got a saying in the addiction field.

00:48:31.700 It's better to be smart than strong.

00:48:34.580 Because the dopamine hits, I'm sorry, because the drugs hit the dopamine center stronger than anything else, it's going to be pretty tough to go against it with willpower.

00:48:44.640 You know, the old saying, just say no, that really doesn't work.

00:48:48.780 The addiction is primarily your desired dopamine, and so what you want to do is counteract it with your controlled dopamine.

00:48:54.260 So, for example, you're struggling to stay sober because you are an alcoholic, but you've got to go to a work party in which alcohol is going to be served.

00:49:03.720 To say to yourself, well, I'll just go, and I'll be strong.

00:49:06.740 I won't drink.

00:49:07.980 It's probably unrealistic because seeing that alcohol is going to unleash the dopamine.

00:49:13.700 You're going to have overwhelming craving.

00:49:16.040 And this experience of craving reduces voluntariness.

00:49:19.360 What you're better off doing is getting a buddy to go with you to this party who can stand by your side and make sure that you don't drink.

00:49:28.720 You've really got to strategize things rather than try to exert willpower in the moment.

00:49:34.060 This brings us back to the earlier idea of the power of understanding.

00:49:37.600 If you understand, then you're in a position to actually avoid the situation or to accommodate the temptation when it occurs.

00:49:46.440 But it does begin with understanding, and I believe, again, I'm going to say this over and over, and maybe it's just the nature of my training as a physics person, is that if you understand the system beneath it, it feels a lot more reasonable to make a choice this way rather than saying, you know what?

00:50:04.500 This is going to build character.

00:50:06.280 This is a matter of my maturity.

00:50:08.000 No, this is a matter of understanding how the system works and using it to your advantage.

00:50:12.900 You wouldn't try to put gas in the window of the car.

00:50:15.400 It goes where the gas hole is in the back, and this is something we need to know about our brain, understanding the underlying piece and anticipate and work to make use of it.

00:50:26.580 So it sounds like you're using controlled dopamine to override that desired dopamine, right?

00:50:31.520 Yes.

00:50:31.940 I wouldn't say override it, but I'd say to accommodate it or perhaps oppose it.

00:50:37.180 Yeah, oppose it.

00:50:38.120 It's even better because there are so many systems in the body, in the brain, for that matter, that act in opposition.

00:50:44.200 And this is actually using the system the way it's intended to be used.

00:50:48.800 So, yeah, I mean, so using controlled dopamine, you are setting up constraints, maybe making changes in your environment to accommodate for that.

00:50:55.520 So if you have – if you're addicted to a drug, that might mean just like get rid of all of it, right?

00:51:01.120 Get it out of your house so it's not there in that – I mean, it's so close to you, right?

00:51:06.040 Because you have that desire.

00:51:07.340 It could mean, like you said, having a buddy.

00:51:09.400 I'm curious, are there other things we can do with the, say, here and now neurotransmitters to oppose desire dopamine in an addiction situation?

00:51:21.060 Well, can we talk about triggers for a second besides just the avoiding the alcohol?

00:51:26.000 Sure.

00:51:26.080 If you know that – like one of the stories in the book is about a person who used drugs, and whenever they smelled bleach, they were instantly drawn back to it.

00:51:38.260 And they had to avoid the smell of bleach because it reminded them of cleaning the needles, to be rather graphic here.

00:51:45.820 I believe that's how we wrote this out.

00:51:47.880 Yeah, yeah.

00:51:48.420 And just to make it clear, the stimulation of dopamine can bring about different kinds of experiences.

00:51:54.300 It can bring about euphoria and excitement and motivation, which is all good, but it can also bring about craving, the desire for something you don't have that in many cases is going to harm you.

00:52:07.280 Okay.

00:52:07.820 So you've got to think about those triggers, eliminate those triggers if you can.

00:52:11.960 Yeah.

00:52:12.200 But going back to the idea of here and now, I mean, can relationships and like really embracing relationships help with addictions?

00:52:20.080 Yeah, absolutely.

00:52:21.360 You know, we've really been talking about dopamine.

00:52:23.400 It's a very important part of what motivates human behavior, but probably social relationships is an even stronger motivation.

00:52:32.460 Social media like Facebook and Twitter, they combine both dopamine and the power of here and now social relationships.

00:52:39.980 With addictions, typically how that's done is with fellowship programs.

00:52:45.280 The most famous, of course, being Alcoholics Anonymous.

00:52:48.640 You develop relationships with people who are all working towards the same goal of sobriety.

00:52:54.180 They give you their phone number.

00:52:56.020 They're there for you for emotional support when you're having trouble.

00:52:59.740 Also, there is the here and now experience of guilt if you let them down and you have a slip.

00:53:05.560 And as all mothers know, there are few things as powerful for motivating behavior as guilt.

00:53:13.300 So the here and now circuits can be just as powerful as dopamine.

00:53:18.620 And so it's a very good idea to bring them to bear when we're trying to overcome an addiction.

00:53:23.100 So let's talk, we've been talking about some of the benefits of dopamine, the downsides of dopamine.

00:53:28.640 This is something that we interact with on a day-to-day basis.

00:53:31.120 I'm curious, based on your research and your experience, are there like just some best practices that people can use day in and day out to ensure they get the benefits of dopamine while mitigating its downsides?

00:53:42.660 I think that in modern Western culture, we tend to be a little bit over-dopaminergic.

00:53:48.640 We've got all of this information flowing in towards us.

00:53:52.140 We've got all kinds of new products on the grocery store shelves.

00:53:56.920 So the most important thing is to be in balance.

00:54:00.120 And so I think that for most of us, in order to achieve that balance, we want to do a better job of boosting our here and now activity.

00:54:08.980 One way we do that is by engaging in hobbies, doing things not for the purpose of making the future better, but doing things for the purpose of enjoying right here, right now.

00:54:22.600 Woodworking, crocheting, just spending time with your family and your friends.

00:54:28.080 The key is balance.

00:54:29.560 And for most of us, we're going to have to boost our H&N.

00:54:32.340 Let me give you two things in particular you can do to, especially if you're a highly dopaminergic person.

00:54:39.780 And Dan and I have talked about this because we consider ourselves to be pretty highly dopaminergic people.

00:54:44.940 Here are two things you can do to help bring up that H&N and cultivate it.

00:54:48.900 One is to simply observe.

00:54:51.080 If you're walking down the street and you see a flower, think about that for just a second.

00:54:56.300 That's a flower.

00:54:57.080 I live in Washington, D.C.

00:54:58.600 When I drive into the city, I stop purposefully and I remind myself when I drive past the Washington Miami, I go, my goodness, some people see that once in their lives.

00:55:07.200 I see it every time I drive into the city.

00:55:09.720 Look at that beautiful thing.

00:55:11.600 Look at the texture of it.

00:55:13.220 Appreciate a thing in itself, the thing in itself.

00:55:16.880 That's one thing you can do.

00:55:18.220 Another thing you can do is be present with other people.

00:55:21.200 Now, that's a cliche to the point of meaninglessness now.

00:55:23.640 But when I say do something in particular, I mean that.

00:55:26.740 Turn off your phone.

00:55:28.160 You go to lunch, turn it off.

00:55:30.060 If you can't turn it off for the whole time, turn it off for 20 minutes and be with that person.

00:55:35.680 Experience the sensory nature of it.

00:55:39.220 Think about how food tastes.

00:55:41.000 And you have to remind yourself to do this because it certainly doesn't come naturally to me.

00:55:45.300 But to actually taste the food and how it feels in your mouth, the way the place smells when you're there, to indulge yourself and experience itself is a way to remind you on a regular basis that the whole world is not before you.

00:56:02.300 Life is right here.

00:56:03.740 It sounds like mindfulness meditation could also help too.

00:56:07.340 Oh, yeah.

00:56:07.740 What about for people who are low-dopaminergic folks?

00:56:13.280 Anything they can do to boost that?

00:56:14.880 Because people are just like they don't feel motivated to do anything.

00:56:18.580 Yeah, that's tougher.

00:56:19.880 I think as a psychiatrist, I would say the first thing they need to do is make sure they're not suffering from an illness such as depression.

00:56:26.680 Because if that's the case, that's very, very treatable.

00:56:29.700 People who are low-dopaminergic, they're less likely to be low-energy, and they're more likely to just be simply very, very content.

00:56:39.380 There are some people who just don't want to be in the rat race.

00:56:42.040 They just want to sit around and smell the flowers all day long.

00:56:46.300 And I think one might say, well, there's nothing wrong with it.

00:56:49.100 They just want to be happy, and they just want to be a beautiful creature.

00:56:53.860 And I think that's okay.

00:56:55.400 All right, so embrace it.

00:56:56.560 Be okay with it.

00:56:57.720 Be okay with it.

00:56:58.480 They're going to be okay with it.

00:56:59.580 They need to get the people around them okay with it.

00:57:02.040 Yeah, that's a problem for the rest of us.

00:57:04.380 Ambition isn't the be-all and end-all of human existence.

00:57:07.260 No, yeah, it can make you miserable if you take it to an extreme.

00:57:10.900 Well, Daniel, Michael, this has been a great conversation.

00:57:13.040 Where can people go to learn more about the book?

00:57:15.200 You can go to MoleculeOfMore.com, MoleculeOfMore.com, and read about it there.

00:57:20.420 And you can order it there, too.

00:57:21.760 Or you can go directly to Amazon or any of your favorite booksellers.

00:57:25.860 All right, well, Daniel Lieberman, Michael Long, it's been a great conversation.

00:57:28.580 Thanks so much for your time.

00:57:29.860 Thanks, Brett.

00:57:30.540 It's been a pleasure.

00:57:31.340 My guest there are Daniel Lieberman and Michael Long.

00:57:33.300 They're the co-authors of the book, The Molecule of More, How a Single Chemical in Your Brain

00:57:36.700 Drives Love, Sex, and Creativity.

00:57:38.360 It's available on Amazon.com.

00:57:39.520 Go pick up a copy.

00:57:40.620 There's a lot of stuff we didn't talk about, a lot of great insights.

00:57:42.820 Also, check out our show notes at aom.is slash dopamine, where you can find links to resources.

00:57:47.420 We can delve deeper into this topic.

00:57:49.040 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:58:04.140 For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at

00:58:07.360 artofmanliness.com.

00:58:08.380 And if you enjoy the show, you've gotten something out of it, I'd appreciate it if you take one

00:58:11.460 minute to give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher.

00:58:13.240 It helps out a lot.

00:58:14.020 And if you've done that already, thank you.

00:58:15.480 Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you think gets something

00:58:18.440 out of it.

00:58:18.980 As always, thank you for your continued support.

00:58:20.960 Until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay madly.

The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

#429： Taking Control of the Brain Chemical That Drives Excitement, Motivation, and More

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