The Art of Manliness - #435： How to Achieve Hyperfocus

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00:01:16.640 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. We all want to be

00:01:21.120 more productive and we buckle down to do so. We typically try to figure out ways to better manage

00:01:25.420 your time. My guest today though argues that focusing on managing your time is only part of

00:01:29.220 the productivity picture. You also need to learn how to better manage your attention. His name is

00:01:33.140 Chris Bailey and his latest book is Hyperfocus, How to Be More Productive in a World of Distraction.

00:01:37.940 Today on the show, Chris shares research-backed advice on how to improve your powers of concentration

00:01:41.660 and why doing so is more important than ever. We delve into why you need to be more intentional

00:01:45.640 about directing your attention, why multitasking actually causes you to be less productive,

00:01:49.580 and the surprisingly long time it takes to get refocused when you get distracted. Chris then

00:01:53.560 shares tactics you can start using today to become more focused. We then shift gears and discuss

00:01:58.040 the importance of having periods of time when you're not focused, especially when you're planning

00:02:01.820 for the future. Chris shares how you can organize your day to get the benefits of being both focused

00:02:05.940 and unfocused. There's lots of actionable advice in this episode. After it's over, check out the show

00:02:09.880 notes at aom.is slash hyperfocus. And Chris joins me now via clearcast.io.

00:02:27.440 Chris Bailey, welcome back to the show.

00:02:30.080 Brad McKay, thank you so much for having me back.

00:02:32.220 So we had you on, I think it was, might've been a few years ago. Time just sort of bleeds together.

00:02:36.480 Is it that long? I think it might've been. Like sometimes like I'll have a guest on,

00:02:41.200 I'm like, oh, it was just like last year. And then it was like, no, it was three years ago.

00:02:44.880 Yeah. Time flies, doesn't it? Especially when you're doing a lot of work and that's fun that

00:02:49.420 you're totally focused on, immersed in.

00:02:51.800 Right. It's flow. We'll talk about the flow state here in a bit. So we had you on to talk

00:02:56.200 about the productivity project. You write about productivity. You're a quote unquote,

00:03:00.600 as you said, productivity expert. You got a new book out called Hyperfocus,

00:03:05.160 How to Be More Productive in a World of Distraction. So, I mean, when people often think

00:03:11.140 about productivity, they're often thinking about, well, how do I beat distraction? But

00:03:15.480 you kind of make a distinction between the two. There's a difference between being productive

00:03:19.220 and a difference between being focused. What are the differences?

00:03:23.380 Oh, absolutely. It kind of, it's funny how your ideas evolve over time on different things.

00:03:29.780 So the definition that I use to define productivity has evolved too.

00:03:34.500 So I used to think of it as, especially when I first started exploring this whole productivity

00:03:39.240 racket, I used to think about it as doing more and more and more, faster, faster, faster.

00:03:43.600 But over time, I've kind of whittled away at the preconceived notions I had on the idea.

00:03:49.500 I realized it's basically just accomplishing what's important.

00:03:53.420 And, you know, it's not about how much we produce, rather, it's about how much we accomplish.

00:03:58.440 And what's important changes depending on where we're at. And so if we're at home,

00:04:03.020 you know, diving deep into a conversation that we're having with our wife, a loved one,

00:04:07.580 that's what's important there. But at work, on the other hand,

00:04:10.980 maybe checking email and getting on top of that might be important. Maybe mentoring a new employee

00:04:15.220 that joins our team is important. Maybe if we're doing a podcast, helping people hopefully

00:04:20.240 become more productive by the end of it is what's important. But I think when we're focused,

00:04:25.800 focus is essentially one part of productivity. I view productivity as this more holistic idea

00:04:31.520 that everything contributes to. How we manage our time contributes to it. How we manage our energy

00:04:37.980 contributes to it. But most of us are all right at managing those two aspects of our life.

00:04:43.760 We can keep a calendar. We know that we have more energy when we work out.

00:04:48.120 But it's that focus that is this third part of productivity, in addition to time and energy,

00:04:55.480 where we become immersed in what is important, hopefully, instead of just becoming immersed in

00:05:02.200 our phone. And so it's a part of the bigger picture of productivity. But I think it's the most

00:05:07.220 important one today. You know, you mentioned the subtitle of the book, and it talks about,

00:05:11.580 you know, living in a world of distraction. We are, we really are distracted more today,

00:05:17.840 the studies around that are so fascinating than we ever have been before.

00:05:23.380 Yeah. And we'll get into some of the research here. Because what I love about the book and your

00:05:26.760 previous book too, is you dig in to psychological studies, sociology, try to figure out like what

00:05:33.920 actually works. And, you know, going to that idea, you know, the distinction between focused

00:05:37.860 and productivity, I think it's an important one you made. Because you can be focused at playing Tetris.

00:05:43.840 Yeah.

00:05:44.120 But you're not necessarily being productive at that moment.

00:05:46.520 Yeah. If you're not focused on what's actually important, then what's the point of being focused,

00:05:51.180 right?

00:05:51.460 Right.

00:05:51.760 And this is, you know, something that I keep finding, that I keep rediscovering in my own

00:05:56.980 behavior and other people's behavior in the research, is that what lies at the heart of us

00:06:03.260 becoming more productive, is this deliberateness, this intentionality, which absolutely has to

00:06:09.700 precede whatever it is that we do. So in any moment of any day, we're either working with

00:06:16.020 intention, there's intention behind what we're doing, you know, we choose what we do, what

00:06:20.420 we focus on before we focus or do it. Or we're working on autopilot mode, just in response to

00:06:25.980 what comes our way. And I think our productivity can be pegged to the breakdown of how much of

00:06:33.700 our time we spend with intention. So intention, attention without intention is essentially just

00:06:40.340 wasted energy in that way.

00:06:41.860 All right. So let's get into the science of attention. So like what happens, what's going

00:06:47.520 on in our brain whenever we pay attention to something? Are there like certain parts that

00:06:53.480 fire up or, you know, light up on, you know, MRIs or whatever?

00:06:58.340 Yeah. Usually most of our brain is aligned, you know, our task positive network is what it's called

00:07:05.040 in research, is active when we're focused on something, which involves the logical centers of

00:07:11.260 our brain, it involves even the perceptual centers of our brain. And in research, it's known as being

00:07:17.360 perceptually coupled. So all of our senses are coupled with what we're doing. And same with our

00:07:23.060 thoughts, which are like our sixth sense, I like to think of it in those terms. And so our mind and

00:07:29.120 body are both in sync with what we're doing. So there's fascinating research on this too. We even blink

00:07:35.640 in accordance with what we're focused on. And so if you're listening to this podcast,

00:07:41.260 and there's a pause after something we say, you might take a blink, same with in an audio book,

00:07:47.120 same as if you're watching a TED talk or a speaker, or you're having a conversation, we blink, I think,

00:07:52.220 every 15 to 20 seconds or so, but we do so in accordance with our attention. And so it's this

00:07:58.360 fascinating idea where we're essentially immersed in something.

00:08:04.400 And I think one of the things you highlight in the book is that, you know, we have this idea

00:08:07.400 that we can multitask. And there's certain things we can multitask. But for the most part,

00:08:11.500 we can only attend to one thing at a time, really. And it's not like we're doing both at the same

00:08:17.180 time. We're switching our attention between all these different things really fast.

00:08:22.700 Yeah. And this is, I think, you know, a lot of people mention multitasking,

00:08:27.200 but without really working from the same definition. So what we say, you know,

00:08:32.960 what we refer to when we're saying multitasking is really, like you said, just task switching,

00:08:37.700 moving our attentional spotlight from one thing to another. And so when we do this,

00:08:43.260 things take about 50% longer, it takes us that much longer to read a passage to finish a task.

00:08:49.760 But multitasking is when we try to pay attention to things concurrently, which there are also a lot

00:08:56.040 of misconceptions out there about.

00:08:57.420 So, I mean, okay, what is, I mean, okay, how can we do that? If, how can we multitask? Is it

00:09:02.980 possible to multitask? Because I've heard, I've heard, I've read different things like, oh,

00:09:06.540 it's not, it's, it is possible. Like, oh no, it is impossible to multitask. Can, is it, is it possible?

00:09:12.160 It is, but we can't do it very well. So we can't actively focus on more than one thing at one time.

00:09:22.360 But there are some things that we can do that don't take any focus. And so maybe you're deep in

00:09:30.820 a conversation with somebody as you're walking down the street, and you're focused completely

00:09:35.700 on that conversation. You're totally immersed in it, the state of total immersion that I like to

00:09:41.340 call hyperfocus. And you're really not thinking about the walking that you're doing. You're really

00:09:46.880 not thinking about the hand gestures, the gesticulation that you're doing. You're really

00:09:51.440 not thinking about maybe the gum that you're chewing. We can do a lot of things out of habit.

00:09:56.900 And when we do something out of habit, it doesn't occupy our working memory, our, so our, essentially

00:10:04.640 just our very short-term memory, like the tasks that we do. But where we run into trouble, and where

00:10:11.500 our attention begins to become overwhelmed, is when we try to focus on more than one complex

00:10:18.380 thing at one time. And so because we only have so much attention to give to the world around us

00:10:23.180 in one moment, I believe we have about 40 bits that we can tend to in any one moment, but yet

00:10:29.200 there are so many things that we can focus on in our environment. And because our attention is

00:10:35.780 constrained in this way, we can only process so much in the moment. And especially when a task is

00:10:41.700 complex, it requires and it asks more of our attention by default. And that's where we begin

00:10:47.240 to run into troubles. If you are trying to carry on a conversation with two people at once, you would

00:10:52.180 very quickly notice that you don't have the capacity to do so. But you do have the capacity to tend to a

00:10:58.500 few habits while you do something complex. And so, you know, we can run on a treadmill while we listen to

00:11:03.960 music, while we look at the TV that's up in front of us and process that a little bit. But any more

00:11:11.440 than that, and once you try to do something more complex at the same time, that's really when you

00:11:16.340 run into trouble.

00:11:17.780 Right. And as you point out, we have so much competing for our attention. You might be in

00:11:23.900 your inbox one moment, and then you go to Twitter the next, and then you're to a website, and you're

00:11:28.180 back to your inbox. And all that switching, talk about how it leaves attentional residue, right?

00:11:35.620 So let's say you're working on a report, and you go over to your inbox really quick, because you got

00:11:41.220 a notification, you check it, and then you go back, you talk about how there's like, there's still a bit

00:11:46.640 of attention lingering on that inbox. So it takes a while for us to get back and to focus on the report

00:11:53.120 that we're writing.

00:11:54.440 Exactly. And this is, I think, the biggest cost of constantly switching between things,

00:12:00.580 is if we could totally switch from one thing to the next to the next without any fragments of the

00:12:09.220 previous task occupying this working memory that we have. I like to call this working memory capacity

00:12:14.780 our attentional space in the book. But there are fragments of the previous thing. So if you finish

00:12:20.380 up a call that's very heated with somebody, or you're in this argument, and then you try to answer

00:12:26.580 email, you're going to be less efficient at doing that. Certain things help you become a better

00:12:31.760 custodian of this attentional space. The meditation is a very good example of one, where it's been shown

00:12:37.760 to lead us to have less attentional residue as we switch from one thing to another. But there are

00:12:43.680 always these fragments, which is, you know, not only do we have to shift from one context to another

00:12:49.440 when we switch from one task to another, but we also are not able to bring our full attention to

00:12:56.240 it at the start. One of the most fascinating studies that I had the chance to uncover was that

00:13:02.920 when we're doing work in front of a computer, we can only focus, or on average, we only focus on one

00:13:09.100 thing for 40 seconds before we switch to doing something else. So we're, in other words, very productive

00:13:16.600 doing an Excel sheet or writing a report in Word, whatever it might be. But then for seemingly no

00:13:21.800 reason, we go over to checking Instagram on our phone, we check an email notification in the corner

00:13:28.040 of the screen. And so it, you know, it brings, you know, this technology that we use, it brings with it

00:13:35.460 all this distraction that that is really quite costly. You know, attentional residue is one of the

00:13:40.700 costs, but working with less focus, always having this diluted attention, not being able to remember

00:13:46.600 as much because we process things with a different part of our brain when we multitask. All of these

00:13:52.220 are costs that add up when we don't manage our attention properly.

00:13:55.900 Yeah, I thought it was one of the big takeaways for me that really opened my eyes was, or surprised me,

00:14:01.260 was whenever we are, say, working on a report or an Excel spreadsheet or reading or something,

00:14:06.460 we're focused, we switch over to email, then we switch back and then, you know, I can just get

00:14:10.560 right back in the groove because I was already in the groove. It takes like 26 minutes to get back

00:14:15.720 into that focused state. Oh yeah. And it depends on that. This is, there's curious research on that

00:14:22.060 too, where it depends whether you're interrupted by an external source or an internal source. And so

00:14:28.000 we have this, this attention mechanism in our brain that is drawn to anything that is one of three

00:14:34.740 things. It's drawn to anything that is pleasurable. It's drawn to anything that is threatening. And

00:14:40.040 it's drawn to anything that is novel. And so we even have a novelty bias in our brain, where our

00:14:45.480 brain releases more dopamine, which is the chemical, one of the pleasure chemicals, whenever we focus on

00:14:51.080 something that's shiny or new and novel, like a, like an email notification or scrolling through a

00:14:55.940 bunch of fitness feeds on Instagram. But when we have this novelty seeking behavior, where we seek out

00:15:02.420 something that is novel and pleasurable, we even seek out threats. That's why so many of us are

00:15:07.020 glued to the news. It takes us 29 minutes, more than 20. 26 is the average between the internal

00:15:14.880 distractions and the external distractions, which are roughly even. We distract ourselves as much as

00:15:20.960 we're distracted from other people. It's actually about a 50-50 split. But when we're distracted by

00:15:26.320 something we do, it takes us 29 minutes to get back on track. And before we resume doing that task,

00:15:33.860 we tend to, I believe it's 2.26 other tasks before resuming. So we don't just tend to one thing and then

00:15:42.280 go back to that Excel sheet or whatever it is that we were doing before. We work on two other things

00:15:49.060 before resuming that task if we're interrupted by somebody external to us.

00:15:53.820 And so a notification that comes in, whatever it might be, a co-worker stopping by our office to

00:15:59.220 ask how our weekend was. It takes us 23 minutes to get back on track after that point. And so we

00:16:05.260 fare a bit better, but still the costs are pretty great. And if you don't believe that 29-minute

00:16:10.780 figure, I had my doubts at first. So I started to try to observe this in my own behavior, in my own

00:16:17.760 life before figuring out what I could do about it and in the lives of other people.

00:16:21.740 And I saw this when I woke up in the morning. I'd wake up and my phone would wake me up. And so

00:16:28.000 I would bounce over to Instagram because I got two notifications overnight. I found that I got

00:16:33.820 two emails overnight. And so I tended to those. I bounced around between a loop of five or six

00:16:39.660 apps. And before I knew it, 26 minutes had gone by. And so we can observe this pattern in our own

00:16:46.200 behavior. Not only does it take a long time to get back on track when we're distracted or interrupted

00:16:51.460 completely, but we shift around our attention quite a bit every 40 seconds. And so all of these

00:16:58.980 figures, figures aren't too compelling. The statistics are never too motivating. But

00:17:04.520 I think when you take all of this stuff together, we are in a state of divided attention when we work.

00:17:11.080 Every 40 seconds, we switch. And we don't really have purpose. We don't have that intention

00:17:15.900 behind what we're doing because we're drawn to anything that's novel, that's pleasurable,

00:17:20.400 that's threatening. And so we really have to get ahead of ourselves in this way.

00:17:25.900 To that point where our attention is divided, it takes a long time for us to get refocused after we

00:17:32.080 distract ourselves or we are distracted. We might think we're getting a lot done by doing all this

00:17:37.460 task switching, but it slows you down. You actually get less done. You might think you're

00:17:45.620 getting a lot done, but you're actually getting less done because you're not in that focused state

00:17:48.520 anymore. And that's the thing with our attention is we look at how busy we are as a proxy for how

00:17:55.560 productive we are. Because when we do knowledge work for a living and we do brain work, it's impossible

00:18:02.220 to measure. Most of us don't work on an assembly line anymore where we can measure our output in

00:18:09.860 widgets every day. So we made 20 widgets today instead of 10 widgets yesterday. So we are twice

00:18:15.360 as productive. And so we look at how busy we are as a proxy for how productive we are.

00:18:21.380 And so the more emails we answer, the busier we think we are, the more productive we think we are,

00:18:26.620 the more tweets we respond to and read, the more times we refresh CNN or the New York Times.

00:18:34.520 The busier we are, the more productive we think we are. But really, so often the opposite is the

00:18:41.160 case. And that's kind of the state of our attention too, is we've never been so busy,

00:18:46.060 but have accomplished so little. To tie it back to that original definition of productivity,

00:18:51.160 accomplishing what's important. That's how we should use our attention.

00:18:54.940 So, I mean, we live in a distracted world because we have all this stuff, smartphones,

00:18:58.960 a computer in our pocket at any moment where anybody can reach us or we can, if we're curious

00:19:04.080 about something, we can find it. So, I mean, have these devices shrunk? So you talk about we have

00:19:09.500 this attentional space. Has this stuff shrunk our attentional space because we, I don't know,

00:19:16.160 we don't use our attention as much or we do a poor job of using it?

00:19:19.700 Yeah, absolutely. We have less attention to give to the world around us. And the more deliberately

00:19:26.820 we learn to manage our attention, the amount... This is the curious thing. There's a lot of brain

00:19:33.800 training apps out there, but research shows that they don't really work over time. Once you stop

00:19:40.000 doing them, you kind of lose all the gains that you made on them. But you can actually grow the amount

00:19:46.920 of attention you have to give to the world around you. And so, you can grow your working memory

00:19:53.020 capacity, this attentional space. And so, you're able to dive deeper into more complex ideas in the

00:19:59.320 moment. The more distracted you are, the less you're able to delve deep into what's actually

00:20:05.520 complex on a daily basis. And one proven way of doing that is meditation. Meditation is a brain

00:20:13.580 training technique where you train your ability to give focus to what's in front of you in the

00:20:19.620 present moment as opposed to wherever your attention wants to go to whatever is novel, pleasurable,

00:20:25.960 or threatening. And so, it totally is possible to not only make your attention bigger and not only be

00:20:34.800 able to take on things that are more complex, but it's possible that your attention can almost wither

00:20:41.480 over time. It decreases as your energy levels falter, for example. It decreases the more

00:20:48.600 distracted you are with your distractibility level. And so, it really does orbit around these different

00:20:55.000 ideas. There is one kind of thing that I mentioned in the book, and it's the quality of our attention.

00:21:02.460 The research kind of points to three measures that we can use to measure our progress with how focused

00:21:10.660 we're able to become in the moment. The first is how long we can focus on one thing for. And so,

00:21:17.280 past that 40-second mark, you know, if you think back to your last most productive day where you became

00:21:23.620 immersed in conversations and what you were writing, you probably held your focus for more than 40 seconds.

00:21:29.660 The second measure is how long your mind wanders for before you're able to catch it. And so, that's kind

00:21:36.660 of a measure of how aware you are of your thoughts. And the third is how much of your time you spend

00:21:42.320 with intention. So, how long you can focus for, how long your mind wanders for before you catch it,

00:21:47.660 and how much of your time you spend with intention. And I think the better the quality of your attention,

00:21:54.960 the better the quality of your life, because you can focus for longer and delve deeper into experiences.

00:22:00.840 You can notice when your mind wanders away from maybe a meaningful conversation with your partner

00:22:07.660 at the pub. You can notice when you're not working with intention. You can spend your time with greater

00:22:13.840 intentionality behind what you're doing so that you can do things with purpose and not on this autopilot

00:22:20.040 mode. And the more distracted we are, the lower the quality of our attention and the lower the quality

00:22:26.160 of our life. Because really, when you look at a life, it's an accumulation of moments. And if each

00:22:32.600 moment of your life, you're distracted, you're going to be living a distracted life and maybe burn

00:22:36.700 through years of time, not really accomplishing or anything productive or meaningful.

00:22:42.500 Yeah, I think that was a big takeaway.

00:22:44.020 That got a bit dark, but...

00:22:44.700 No, no, but it's true. I mean, what you're saying is our existence is what we pay attention to.

00:22:49.480 Yes. What we pay attention to, that's our reality, right? If you pay attention to

00:22:55.300 what you're angry about, you're going to become angry and become an angry person over time as

00:23:01.580 those moments accumulate. But the same is true if you pay attention to what's productive and focus

00:23:06.800 on that and do that, then you become a productive person. If you focus on what's meaningful at home

00:23:12.920 in your life by practicing things like gratitude, you become a gracious person. You become somebody

00:23:17.980 who's deserved of their success. And your life is enriched with meaning because of that.

00:23:25.300 There's more fascinating science behind simply the depths of our relationships around how we

00:23:32.740 manage our attention. You know how people put their phone face down on the table when they're with

00:23:38.120 somebody? There was this team of researchers that went out and looked at people at coffee shops.

00:23:45.880 And what they observed in these coffee shop patrons was that, on average, when somebody had their phone

00:23:52.920 face down on the table in front of them, they had a good intention, an intention of focusing on what

00:23:57.740 was there, which was the person that they were with. But on average, they checked their phone every

00:24:03.620 three to five minutes. And when they surveyed people who checked their phone so often, when their partner

00:24:09.860 went up to go to the washroom, when there was a lull in the conversation, when they wanted to take a

00:24:14.980 picture, whatever it was, they found that those people rated their connection with the person and

00:24:21.260 the quality of their relationship and how close they felt to the person as significantly lower than

00:24:27.680 people who put their phones away. And speaking of the quality of our attention, this impacts almost

00:24:33.560 every element of our life. And more research needs to be conducted on this. But the less control we have

00:24:40.260 over our attention. The research shows that we feel less autonomous with the work that we do because

00:24:45.180 it's kind of natural. We work more often on autopilot. We have lower levels of self-acceptance,

00:24:51.380 so we don't accept ourselves and try to compensate for our insecurities. We have lower levels of happiness

00:24:58.160 and even life satisfaction when we have less control over our attention. And this starts when we're young,

00:25:04.980 which is, you know, it gives more concern to kids, how distracted kids are. The more text messages

00:25:13.100 that a kid sends, the less they rate the quality of their relationships, which is kind of ironic

00:25:19.100 because why are they sending the text messages in the first place? And the less control the kid has

00:25:24.260 over her attention, the less they feel like they can accept themselves or the less they feel like they

00:25:29.240 have control over their life. So, you know, by managing our attention, we really can reclaim this

00:25:36.380 big part of us that affects everything we experience.

00:25:40.180 So let's talk about how we can get into this hyper-focused state. So, I mean, okay, it is

00:25:44.780 possible to increase your attentional space.

00:25:47.200 Absolutely.

00:25:47.940 But again, we should focus first probably on the quality of our attention. And you've mentioned this

00:25:53.280 about our conversation so far, but the first step is just being intentional about your attention,

00:26:00.320 like knowing what you're going to pay attention to.

00:26:02.220 Yeah, exactly. And, you know, essentially there's the four steps. There's choosing

00:26:06.700 an object of focus. That's number one. Number two is taming the distractions around us. Number three is

00:26:13.120 simply focusing because we've cleared all the brush out of the way and taming the distractions.

00:26:18.200 And the fourth is to bring our mind back to that object of intention when we notice that it's

00:26:24.800 wandered to think of something else. And so, the first idea, the idea behind this is, of course,

00:26:33.320 intention is at the heart of productivity. And so, by setting intentions more often, we can work more

00:26:39.480 deliberately and with intention. The rule of three, I think we talked about the rule of three last time,

00:26:43.620 but it's a very sticky rule and our mind is wired to think in threes. And so, when we set three

00:26:50.460 intentions at the start of the day, so we ask ourselves, by the time that this day is done, what

00:26:56.500 three main things will I want to have accomplished? It's a very simple rule, but it essentially gives

00:27:01.620 us something to focus on that's important throughout the day. And in the moment, we can also do this.

00:27:07.220 One of my favorite rituals, I don't do it as often as I did anymore, but it's setting an hourly

00:27:12.840 awareness chime. So, you set a timer on your phone for an hour or so, and when it goes off, ask

00:27:19.060 yourself, was I focusing on what I had set an intention for to do? How long was I focusing on

00:27:26.240 it for? Was my mind wandering? So, you can kind of check up on the quality of your attention at that

00:27:31.320 point. And there are a lot of different ways. I cover many of them in the book, like the rule of

00:27:37.220 three, like this hourly awareness chime, like finding our most consequential tasks. So, the ones

00:27:42.580 that have the, they're the equivalent of the first domino in a line of 100 that once you

00:27:49.260 tip it over, it sets off this cascading effect. So, things like mentoring a new employee, for example,

00:27:56.160 is infinitely more productive because it lets you accomplish what's important by making your team

00:28:01.400 more productive and efficient. Whereas, something else like just checking email might not have that

00:28:07.540 same effect, even though you're dealing with what's latest and loudest. So, that really is

00:28:11.780 the first step. You know, intention has to precede attention.

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00:30:28.660 And now back to the show.

00:30:30.140 Yeah, I think that's an important thing because if you don't have an intention,

00:30:32.660 you're going to let anything distract you, right?

00:30:35.000 Exactly.

00:30:36.020 And I tend to be like, this becomes a concern for me when I'm working on something that's

00:30:43.200 particularly boring, like super boring. Because that's when I know I'm going to be most distracted

00:30:48.240 and most like, I want to go check whatever. But usually that boring stuff, you said, it's like,

00:30:53.680 it's the important thing that will allow me to get more done down the road. So like mentoring the

00:30:58.960 new employee, it's super boring. It's super time consuming. But you want to be super focused on it

00:31:03.300 because it's going to pay dividends down the road.

00:31:07.040 Yeah. And if you look at, this is the odd thing about, you know, this second step,

00:31:12.280 taming distractions. If you look at the most important aspects of your work,

00:31:18.520 they're usually not as fun as checking Facebook or Twitter. That like so many of the distractions that

00:31:28.380 I face provide me with some source of validation in my life. So, you know, going to Amazon to check

00:31:35.480 my book ranking, checking my website analytics, but all of these things, you know, they provide us

00:31:41.080 essentially with the three things that our mind is drawn to by default. Either they're pleasurable,

00:31:46.700 or they're threatening, or they're novel. And they're always more of those three things

00:31:52.240 than what we ought to be doing. You know, Facebook in the moment will always be a more attractive

00:31:58.300 object of attention than what we truly ought to be accomplishing. The TV behind our wife or our

00:32:06.360 girlfriend at the pub will always be a more attractive object of attention because it's more 1.00

00:32:11.580 novel. It's more pleasurable. It's more threatening than the conversation. If we're in a fight, though,

00:32:16.660 we might focus on that instead. An email notification that comes in in the corner from somebody important,

00:32:22.680 it's always... Or not important, even if it's from Amazon announcing what Alexa features came out that

00:32:28.300 week, is always more attractive than the report that's in front of us. But this is where taming

00:32:34.980 distractions really comes into play. So, you know, right now I'm doing probably the most aversive thing

00:32:41.120 in my work, and I'm developing new speaking topics. So, I do some public speaking, and you have these

00:32:47.140 topics, and I hate defining them because it involves this... It's boring, like you said. It's frustrating.

00:32:52.940 It's difficult. It's ambiguous. It's unstructured, which are all triggers of procrastination as well,

00:32:59.980 and task aversion. And so, because... And so, earlier this day, I printed off the outlines to them,

00:33:05.960 and I went to a coffee shop here in this small town in Canada that I live in. And I got a coffee.

00:33:11.640 I left my phone at home. I left my laptop at home. I left every bit of technology that I have at home,

00:33:17.320 except for my noise-canceling headphones. I couldn't connect them to anything, but sometimes people have

00:33:21.480 loud conversations. And I just brought a pen. And so, I had no choice but to work on what was

00:33:26.660 important. And this is the key, I think, when it comes to taming distractions, especially with the

00:33:31.920 work that we find the most averse of, which are often our most productive things, is when we

00:33:37.520 eliminate every single potential object of attention that is more attractive in the moment

00:33:45.960 than what we truly want to be doing, like truly want to be doing in the moment we want something

00:33:50.740 else, we give ourselves no choice but to focus on what is actually important, on what we intend

00:33:58.180 to accomplish. And so, for this reason, taming distractions, it's more of a necessary tactic

00:34:05.200 when we're doing something that we find our mind is resisting. But it just makes it so much more

00:34:11.620 valuable because we're able to get into this hyper-focused state where we're totally immersed

00:34:17.080 in what we're doing. We can focus on anything, right? We can focus on anything for 40 seconds,

00:34:22.080 for example. But when we focus on something for longer than that point and become totally immersed in

00:34:27.980 it, you know, hyper-focused in this way is kind of this state that leads to flow, which you mentioned

00:34:33.620 off the top, I think, where we're totally immersed in what we're doing. And so, I think it's one of the

00:34:40.880 most essential parts of managing our attention is taming the distractions that will derail us in the

00:34:47.380 moment. Yeah, I think I'm a big proponent of, you know, taming your distractions, like getting rid of

00:34:52.200 them completely, like doing the Odysseus method, right? Like tying yourself to the mast so it's not even an

00:34:57.880 option to look at the thing. Because I think oftentimes people are like, well, I'll just like, I'll

00:35:01.700 constrain my, I'll restrain myself, right? I'll use my self-discipline to not check it. It's like, check

00:35:07.200 Twitter or whatever. It's like, well, just block Twitter. Like, you know, there's, and you've talked about

00:35:10.440 different methods you can do to tame distractions. You know, one thing I've done is I've taken off

00:35:16.100 Instagram off of my phone, you know, on Twitter. I just have, I don't even have email on my phone

00:35:20.800 anymore. So like my phone is just, I can check a few things on the web and take phone calls and text

00:35:25.820 messages, but that's about it. And there's lots of apps. And I think you mentioned a few in the book

00:35:30.360 and we have, we'll link to some on the site where you can block certain websites for certain periods

00:35:34.380 of time. That's something I do. But I find that more useful than trying to just use my, my grit and

00:35:41.020 self-discipline to not look at those things. Oh yeah. Because in the moment we have very little

00:35:45.100 of that. And this is, you know, this is what I found as a, you know, quote unquote productivity

00:35:50.080 expert is, you know, I felt and fell into the same pitfalls, even though I researched this stuff for a

00:35:54.660 living, of tending to my smartphone too often, of tending to email too often, of meetings even

00:36:00.540 expanding to fit how much time I have for them. And so taming them ahead of time really is the,

00:36:06.560 the best way to get out of this state of distraction, because in the moment we will be

00:36:13.340 attracted by other things. And so we have to get ahead of ourselves. That's, it's just the, the way

00:36:18.400 our brain is wired, right? And this aided our chances that survival, by the way. So, you know,

00:36:23.720 instead of becoming totally immersed in a fire that we were creating for, for the, the tribe we

00:36:30.240 were living in at the time and neglecting the saber-toothed tiger that was encroaching in on

00:36:36.560 our, our environment, we noticed the rustling in the trees. And so this distractibility actually

00:36:41.840 aided our chances at survival. We noticed the tiger approaching and so we survived to see another day.

00:36:47.200 Evolution rewards distraction. But, and so, you know, we noticed ourselves gravitating to the

00:36:53.400 pleasures too. If you, if you ever take a walk through nature, your mind naturally focuses on

00:36:58.600 the berries on, on a tree instead of on the leaves, because we evolved to look at the pleasure

00:37:04.160 in our environment, in our environment. You know, when, when a, somebody who's beautiful walks by,

00:37:09.500 we notice ourselves paying attention to them. But these days, you know, the nearest tigers are at the

00:37:16.520 zoo and food is far and plentiful. And so we tended to the distractions that the same evolution that's

00:37:25.680 built into our brain that, that has aided our chances at survival compromises our focus and our

00:37:30.760 productivity today. So we really, it really is an impulse. And so if we can regain control over that

00:37:36.280 by taming them ahead of time, we can really get ahead of, ahead of it.

00:37:39.860 So, okay. Tame distractions, get rid of, just get rid of stuff that distract you. And I think this

00:37:42.760 requires, you know, you to do sort of an audit of yourself. Like what is the most, and there's like

00:37:46.320 websites, there is apps that can help you figure out what you spend most of your time on and then

00:37:49.700 just eliminate those. And you mentioned, okay, stay focused. And one thing you can do is set that,

00:37:55.160 that chime every hour to make sure that you are still focused on the thing you intended to,

00:38:01.020 to focus on. How long is it possible to stay in this focused state? Is it something you can do an

00:38:06.840 hour, two hours? What does the science say? The science is curious about that. And it shows

00:38:13.820 that the deeper we care about what we're doing, the easier focus becomes because we kind of deplete

00:38:22.080 our focus whenever we have to exercise control over it. And so if you never have to exercise control

00:38:31.200 over your attention, because you care about the work you're doing so much, and it's pleasurable,

00:38:36.260 it's novel, it's threatening when the challenge of doing it is roughly equal to your skill level.

00:38:41.520 So it's, it's a challenge and it asks more of you, then we can focus on something for quite a long

00:38:47.560 time. So, you know, then sometimes we have no choice. If you're launching a satellite into space,

00:38:52.460 for example, you might use up all of this, this mental energy because you have to exercise control,

00:38:59.380 especially after the course of a few hours, but it's pleasurable or it's threatening,

00:39:03.820 it's novel, it's challenging. And so we need fewer breaks when we do it.

00:39:08.980 And this is why I think one of the best pieces of productivity advice out there,

00:39:12.620 people sometimes are drawn to productivity advice and my work I find for the wrong reasons,

00:39:18.320 because sometimes somebody finds that they don't care about the work that they're doing.

00:39:22.620 And then they try to come up with 20 hacks for becoming more productive every day.

00:39:27.260 But really the root problem is that they don't care and they're not naturally intrinsically

00:39:32.260 motivated by what they're doing. And so when we care about what we're doing, we're able to focus

00:39:37.040 on something for much, much longer. This is why, you know, there's no statistic out there that says

00:39:42.800 that this is how much attention you have for something. There are some studies that say,

00:39:47.680 yeah, we can focus on something for around 20 minutes and then need a break. So the Pomodoro

00:39:52.340 technique where we focus essentially in intervals for 25 minutes on something, then let our attention

00:39:57.200 rest for five, then 25, then five, then 25, then a longer break eventually after one of those 25

00:40:03.380 minute sessions. This is why TED Talks are about 18 to 20 minutes long, because that's kind of one,

00:40:10.540 one soft limit to our attention, but it really depends on what we're doing.

00:40:15.280 So you think the takeaway here is first, you know what you're going to focus on,

00:40:18.140 eliminate distractions. Because if, if you're distracted and switching between distractions

00:40:22.460 or between these different tasks, you're going to have attentional residue. You're going to take

00:40:27.260 longer to get focused again, make sure you're focused. And I think, yeah, like, I think most

00:40:32.720 people are like, yeah, I want to get focused. It's if I'm focused, I'm going to get so much done.

00:40:35.800 It's going to be great. Life's going to be amazing. But you are in the book, you're like,

00:40:39.240 there's, there's some downsides to being intently focused on something all the time.

00:40:45.420 Yeah. And that is, you know, we want to be focused on stuff all the time, but we just,

00:40:51.780 we can't do it. You know, we need to rest our attention. We need to recharge our attention

00:40:57.140 because, you know, like I was saying, we deplete our attention whenever we exercise control over it.

00:41:03.100 And so the more you need to exercise control over your focus in your life, the more you'll find

00:41:09.020 yourself having to realign to what's actually important every day. So that's, I think, a big

00:41:14.600 downside is we simply don't have the energy to focus and then we burn out. Then we have less

00:41:19.900 energy to, to approach our work with later on and, you know, work in these crazy hours.

00:41:25.420 It sometimes helps us in the short run, but in the long run, it's a recipe for just a productivity rut.

00:41:33.100 But also on the flip side, when you're focused, you are getting, you're, you're missing out on the

00:41:39.660 benefits of not being focused. People don't think about that. And that was like the second half of

00:41:44.020 the book was this, you talk about the benefits of what you call scatter focus. Yeah. So what is

00:41:50.060 scatter focus and why is it good to, what are the benefits of sort of letting your mind wander all the

00:41:54.800 time? So there is this mode of our brain and it's the default mode. And it's whenever we rest our

00:42:03.580 attention, we activate what is called the default mode network. So it's a nicely named network because

00:42:10.500 it's what we default to. And the beautiful part about this network is it is scattered across our

00:42:17.060 mind. And so you probably noticed this, you know, the last time you let your mind be, whether you're

00:42:22.740 taking a shower, whether you were waking up and your phone was in the other room, which is a marvelous

00:42:27.960 thing to do. It's it just keep a, get an old fashioned alarm clock, have your wristwatch, wake

00:42:33.260 you up, whatever, whatever it is, get your phone the hell out of your bedroom because you will activate

00:42:39.140 this, this resting mode of your mind. And it's scattered across your mind. And as such, the activity

00:42:47.180 we experience whenever we're in this mode is very, very random. You'll find yourself thinking about

00:42:53.600 things, you know, the knowledge you accumulated when you were studying yesterday, your past experiences,

00:43:00.200 your fantasies, what you'll do after listening to this podcast. And what I found in the research is

00:43:08.240 not only is this mode random, it helps us kind of rest and recharge, but it also has two other

00:43:14.360 benefits in addition to letting us rest up our attention. Because the more we need to regulate our

00:43:20.400 attention, the more we need to rest our attention. And so in addition to letting us rest, because we

00:43:25.680 deplete our attention whenever we exercise control over it. The second beautiful part about this,

00:43:31.580 this mode, I can't, I personally can't get enough of this mode right now, because I'm in this long term

00:43:37.180 planning stage with my work with my speaking topics with the books and stuff like that. But what the

00:43:44.240 research shows is that we plan for the future a ton when we are letting our mind rest and just

00:43:51.880 be. Whenever we're letting our mind rest, maybe in the shower, for example, we think about the future

00:43:57.680 and we plan for the future 48% of the time. And in research, this is called our mind's prospective

00:44:04.860 bias because we're setting intentions for what we'll do later that day in the office when we're taking the

00:44:10.520 shower. We'll set intentions for what we want to eat for dinner that day. We'll set intentions for

00:44:15.400 what we're going to do at the gym, how many deadlifts we're going to do that day. We'll take charge over

00:44:20.380 our attention because we let our mind rest. And in that 48%, if you break it down, break it down now,

00:44:26.440 you know, I love the numbers behind this. We think about the immediate future just later on in that day,

00:44:31.920 44% of the time. We think about the next day 40% of the time. So we're usually planning,

00:44:37.320 we're setting intentions, we're taking charge. And we think we think about the past quite a bit in

00:44:42.040 this mode. But the research shows that this isn't really the case. We only think about the past 12%

00:44:48.720 of the time. And, you know, the rest of the time, we're thinking about the present 28% of the time,

00:44:55.020 and the rest of the time, we're thinking about ideas. And so we plan when we're in this mode. And if we

00:45:00.120 talk about working with greater intention, it is impossible to set an intention when you're,

00:45:06.200 or nearly impossible when you're focused on what it is that you're doing. So in this way,

00:45:11.160 so much of productivity is about taking this step back from what we have to do over the course of

00:45:15.860 the day. And the third idea is that we are able to connect ideas whenever we're in this mode. So we

00:45:24.660 get to rest our attention, we plan, and we connect ideas. So when our mind bounces from the past to

00:45:31.860 the present, to the future, we are able to connect all three. In the shower, we think about how we

00:45:38.540 resolved a dispute at work two years ago. And then we think about a dispute that we're having

00:45:43.520 at work later that day, and how we're going to solve it the same way. We think about the ideas,

00:45:49.240 the book that we were reading the day before, and connect that to a conversation we're going to have

00:45:53.380 with our spouse later on that day. We're able to connect the past to the present to the future,

00:45:57.780 which lets us unearth these marvelous ideas that we would never get when we're doing something else.

00:46:05.500 Right. Yeah. Because if you're, it's funny. Yeah. All my good ideas come when I'm not

00:46:09.360 trying to get good ideas. Right. Because when you're trying to like, okay, guys, I think that's

00:46:14.940 why brainstorming sessions are so ineffective. It's like, all right, guys, come up with a good idea.

00:46:19.080 And you're so focused on coming up with a good idea that you don't see yourself like all the other

00:46:26.380 options out there when you're in sort of a wandering, scatter-focused state.

00:46:30.940 One of the best things, if you are doing a brainstorming meeting, is to ask people not

00:46:35.640 to have coffee beforehand, and to have it first thing in the morning. And the reason for that

00:46:40.500 is because coffee kind of narrows in our attention. And so, it's easier to focus when we consume

00:46:47.680 caffeine. And first thing in the morning is usually when people are kind of easing into the day,

00:46:53.260 they have less energy, they're still waking up. And after we wake up is when our mind is the least

00:46:59.140 inhibited. It's when our prefrontal cortex, which generates the ideas in our mind, is the least

00:47:03.380 inhibited. And so, we fire up this default mode of our brain. Maybe if your team is full of morning

00:47:11.440 birds, for example, and you find that everybody has a lot of energy and likes their coffee in the

00:47:16.300 morning, have a drink or two after work if that's a ritual that you guys enjoy. And because this

00:47:23.200 alcohol has a weird effect over our attention, it makes us less aware that our mind is wandering,

00:47:28.480 and it makes our mind wander more often. But it also lets down the guard of our attention,

00:47:33.960 which lets our mind wander more frantically and all over the place to not focus on anything in

00:47:40.180 particular. And so, there are fascinating ways. And also, have the meeting in a messy room

00:47:46.880 because these serve as powerful cues that we should connect disparate ideas. It's a weird one,

00:47:54.180 but the worst place you could have a brainstorming meeting is in a clean office or a meeting room

00:47:59.260 because that sense of order actually affects our focus as well.

00:48:04.180 Right. So, maybe have two places. You have your focus place where it's clean,

00:48:08.280 it looks like an Apple ad, right? Yeah. The sterile Johnny Ive room.

00:48:13.200 Right. You have your creative place, which is just a mess, right? And you go there when you're...

00:48:17.420 Another thing that I've seen research on that helps get you into that scatter, that default mode and

00:48:22.160 get you more creative is staying up all night. Like, getting less sleep can do that. And I've done it

00:48:27.040 before. I've pulled all night. Every now and then. I don't do it all that for you. Sometimes when I'm

00:48:31.100 having a hard time with an article or something I'm working on, I'll stay up all night. And the benefits of

00:48:36.660 that first, there's no distractions because everyone's asleep. No one's sending you emails.

00:48:40.580 No one's tweeting. No one's doing anything. And the other, it's just like, your brain kind of

00:48:45.580 goes to mush a little bit and you start getting some great ideas. And then, of course, it's not

00:48:50.740 focused. It's not organized, but I can get it down. And then the next day, or I guess two days later,

00:48:55.480 when I've caught up on sleep, clean it up and get it focused.

00:48:59.180 Yeah, you got to climb out of that rut. But it does, you know, I think it was Edison that

00:49:04.240 fell asleep with a handful of marbles over a metal plate. And so, the idea was that when

00:49:11.160 he fell asleep and his mind started wandering, because sleep, this is the fascinating part about

00:49:16.860 sleep, is the same regions of your brain that are activated when you're letting your attention rest.

00:49:23.000 If you're letting your attention rest purposefully, I call that scatter focus when you activate this

00:49:28.140 default mode with intention. The same regions of your brain are activated then as when you're

00:49:33.420 sleeping, only they're activated with fury, with fire and fury whenever you're sleeping.

00:49:41.220 And so, when you kind of fall into that deeper state of sleep, and the idea behind what Edison

00:49:49.320 did was the handful of marbles fell, he lost control over his motor system, that woke him up and

00:49:54.800 he captured whatever ideas were on his mind at the time. It was this fascinating strategy that he

00:50:01.540 used and that other people, you know, so many ideas come to us in our sleep. Sometimes we wake up

00:50:07.220 because something is so powerful, but we're usually not aware of them. And so, you know, it's definitely

00:50:12.620 not a long-term recipe, but if you have the freedom and flexibility to do so, sometimes you will become

00:50:18.720 more creative after that state. Yeah. Salvador Dali did that too. Yeah. That's who it was. Yeah.

00:50:25.020 We wrote an article about that. He would have the keys dangling over metal and then fall asleep,

00:50:29.360 I think. Yeah. Like a pie pan or something. So, we have these two stages we can be in. We can be in

00:50:33.640 hyper-focused, scatter-focused. And so, you make the case like you need to be strategic about using

00:50:38.760 these. So, there's a time to be focused, but there's also a time you need to allow your mind to wander so

00:50:43.820 you can get these new ideas. You can plan for the future. So, I mean, what would a schedule look

00:50:48.860 like? Are you alternating between the two? Are there certain times of the day when you should do

00:50:52.700 hyper-focus, scatter-focus? What would a day look like for somebody, an average person?

00:50:58.020 Yeah, for sure. I think it begins with setting an intention. The way I recommend it is over the

00:51:05.300 course of a week. And what I personally like to do, what I find works really well, is at the start of

00:51:10.340 the week, I ask myself, Kate, how much will I need to be productive this week? How much do I have to

00:51:17.460 focus on? How much do I have to write, for example? And how much creativity will I need this week as

00:51:22.840 well? And that kind of dictates... I'd be lying if I said I overthought this. It's a thought that I have

00:51:30.160 when I'm setting my three intentions for the start of every week because this is what allows me to

00:51:35.820 accomplish what's important. And I probably spent five minutes looking at my schedule while I'm

00:51:41.680 setting these intentions and thinking, okay, how much focus will I need this week? How much creativity

00:51:46.200 will I need this week? And depending on that balance, I'll schedule bouts of time for entering

00:51:51.840 into a state of total immersion where I attain the distractions ahead of time and also finding a few

00:51:58.100 things to do if I need the creativity, which I usually do because not only do we get the creativity,

00:52:03.980 we also get the planning stage, which helps us work more deliberately. We get the resting stage.

00:52:09.840 And the best tip that I could give that I offer up in the book and that I'll offer up now for

00:52:15.140 entering into this intentional state of mind wandering is to do something habitual at the

00:52:20.620 same time that you do it. And so, you know, maybe you can let your mind wander a little bit,

00:52:25.120 which is good for capturing what's on your mind. Or if you're chewing over a specific problem,

00:52:29.060 it's nice to keep a problem center of mind and kind of, you know, chew it over as you go for a

00:52:35.100 walk. But when we do something habitual at the same time that we scatter our attention,

00:52:41.000 so when we take an extra long shower, when we swim laps at the pool without any music in our ears,

00:52:46.100 or maybe a simple bit of music, because when music is simple and it sounds familiar to us,

00:52:52.320 it leads to greater focus. Side note on that, one of the fascinating people,

00:52:59.040 maybe one of the most fascinating people out of the many that I talked to in writing this book,

00:53:03.680 his name is Jerry Martin. And he's composed music that hundreds of millions of people have consumed

00:53:10.400 and bought, but yet nobody knows his name. And it's because he designs video game music,

00:53:15.100 he designed the soundtrack for Sims and SimCity. And when I interviewed him, he said that the most,

00:53:21.180 the music that's most conducive to focus is simple. And so, there are very few elements,

00:53:27.820 and it's familiar. And so, when we listen to music, when we're doing something habitual,

00:53:31.740 it lets us focus on what we're doing. But doing something habitual, curiously in research,

00:53:37.640 it leads to the greatest number of creative insights. And it's fun, you know, we're able to rest

00:53:42.680 while we scatter our attention because we're doing something that we love. And while we periodically

00:53:48.220 check up on what's on our mind so we can capture these ideas. And so, you know, when you start the

00:53:53.800 week, I would recommend asking, okay, how much focus will I need this week? What distractions will

00:53:59.440 come up that I haven't tamed? Can I create a distraction-free mode in which I can become totally

00:54:05.240 immersed in what I'm doing? Are there more opportunities than usual to let my mind wander?

00:54:09.860 Is there a place I can go to focus deeply on a project? And then, you know, don't overthink it,

00:54:15.060 but structure your week a bit around that idea where you can get ahead of your attention.

00:54:21.020 You know, that's kind of the theme that courses through the book, I think, is we have to get

00:54:25.220 ahead of our attention. We have to tame distractions ahead of time. We have to think about our week ahead

00:54:29.480 of time. We have to think about what we're doing throughout the day ahead of time. But by doing

00:54:33.680 that, we can become a lot more productive as well as creative.

00:54:37.560 Yeah. One of my favorite mindless tasks to get you in that sort of scatter focus mode is walking.

00:54:42.520 A lot of great, like Immanuel Kant, I know people could time, you know, set their watches for the

00:54:48.540 time when he would go walk, by the time he went walking. He'd just use that time and he probably

00:54:52.500 came up with ideas. Thoreau did that, Nietzsche, Darwin, a lot of these great, like they would

00:54:57.400 work really hard in the morning and then they would take a break and walk for an hour or two

00:55:01.040 and then they'd come back and work a little bit more. Well, hey, Chris, this has been a great

00:55:05.480 conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book?

00:55:07.660 Yeah. So the book is called Hyperfocus, How to Be More Productive in a World of Distraction.

00:55:16.060 And it's available in bookstores everywhere. Support your local bookstores, I like to say,

00:55:21.720 because I know many of them and they're all fun people who love books, as I'm sure the folks

00:55:26.060 listening do too, but it's available in e-copy. It's available on Amazon, wherever books are sold.

00:55:32.080 And yeah, thanks for having me on.

00:55:34.240 All right, Chris Bailey. Thanks so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:55:36.160 Yeah, it's been fun.

00:55:37.460 My guest is Chris Bailey. He's the author of the book Hyperfocus, How to Be More Productive

00:55:41.260 in a World of Distraction. It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. Also check

00:55:45.100 out his blog, alifeofproductivity.com, where you can find more information about his work. Also check

00:55:49.840 out our show notes at aom.is slash hyperfocus, where you can find links to resources, where you can delve

00:55:54.280 deeper into this topic.

00:56:06.160 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,

00:56:11.800 make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And if you enjoy

00:56:15.280 the show, you've got something out of it. Appreciate it if you take one minute to give

00:56:18.100 a review on iTunes or Stitcher. It helps out a lot. And if you've done that already, please consider

00:56:21.780 sharing the show with a friend or family member who you think can get something out of it.

00:56:24.960 As always, thank you for your continued support. Until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay

00:56:29.080 manly.

The Art of Manliness - August 27, 2018

#435： How to Achieve Hyperfocus

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