#435： How to Achieve Hyperfocus
Episode Stats
Summary
We all want to be more productive, and we typically try to figure out ways to better manage our time. My guest today argues that focusing on managing your time is only part of the productivity picture, and that you also need to learn how to better handle your attention. His name is Chris Bailey, and his latest book is Hyperfocus, How to Be More Productive in a World of Distraction.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. We all want to be
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more productive and we buckle down to do so. We typically try to figure out ways to better manage
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your time. My guest today though argues that focusing on managing your time is only part of
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the productivity picture. You also need to learn how to better manage your attention. His name is
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Chris Bailey and his latest book is Hyperfocus, How to Be More Productive in a World of Distraction.
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Today on the show, Chris shares research-backed advice on how to improve your powers of concentration
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and why doing so is more important than ever. We delve into why you need to be more intentional
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about directing your attention, why multitasking actually causes you to be less productive,
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and the surprisingly long time it takes to get refocused when you get distracted. Chris then
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shares tactics you can start using today to become more focused. We then shift gears and discuss
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the importance of having periods of time when you're not focused, especially when you're planning
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for the future. Chris shares how you can organize your day to get the benefits of being both focused
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and unfocused. There's lots of actionable advice in this episode. After it's over, check out the show
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notes at aom.is slash hyperfocus. And Chris joins me now via clearcast.io.
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Brad McKay, thank you so much for having me back.
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So we had you on, I think it was, might've been a few years ago. Time just sort of bleeds together.
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Is it that long? I think it might've been. Like sometimes like I'll have a guest on,
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I'm like, oh, it was just like last year. And then it was like, no, it was three years ago.
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Yeah. Time flies, doesn't it? Especially when you're doing a lot of work and that's fun that
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Right. It's flow. We'll talk about the flow state here in a bit. So we had you on to talk
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about the productivity project. You write about productivity. You're a quote unquote,
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as you said, productivity expert. You got a new book out called Hyperfocus,
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How to Be More Productive in a World of Distraction. So, I mean, when people often think
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about productivity, they're often thinking about, well, how do I beat distraction? But
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you kind of make a distinction between the two. There's a difference between being productive
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and a difference between being focused. What are the differences?
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Oh, absolutely. It kind of, it's funny how your ideas evolve over time on different things.
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So the definition that I use to define productivity has evolved too.
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So I used to think of it as, especially when I first started exploring this whole productivity
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racket, I used to think about it as doing more and more and more, faster, faster, faster.
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But over time, I've kind of whittled away at the preconceived notions I had on the idea.
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I realized it's basically just accomplishing what's important.
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And, you know, it's not about how much we produce, rather, it's about how much we accomplish.
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And what's important changes depending on where we're at. And so if we're at home,
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you know, diving deep into a conversation that we're having with our wife, a loved one,
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that's what's important there. But at work, on the other hand,
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maybe checking email and getting on top of that might be important. Maybe mentoring a new employee
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that joins our team is important. Maybe if we're doing a podcast, helping people hopefully
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become more productive by the end of it is what's important. But I think when we're focused,
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focus is essentially one part of productivity. I view productivity as this more holistic idea
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that everything contributes to. How we manage our time contributes to it. How we manage our energy
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contributes to it. But most of us are all right at managing those two aspects of our life.
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We can keep a calendar. We know that we have more energy when we work out.
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But it's that focus that is this third part of productivity, in addition to time and energy,
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where we become immersed in what is important, hopefully, instead of just becoming immersed in
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our phone. And so it's a part of the bigger picture of productivity. But I think it's the most
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important one today. You know, you mentioned the subtitle of the book, and it talks about,
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you know, living in a world of distraction. We are, we really are distracted more today,
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the studies around that are so fascinating than we ever have been before.
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Yeah. And we'll get into some of the research here. Because what I love about the book and your
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previous book too, is you dig in to psychological studies, sociology, try to figure out like what
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actually works. And, you know, going to that idea, you know, the distinction between focused
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and productivity, I think it's an important one you made. Because you can be focused at playing Tetris.
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But you're not necessarily being productive at that moment.
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Yeah. If you're not focused on what's actually important, then what's the point of being focused,
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And this is, you know, something that I keep finding, that I keep rediscovering in my own
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behavior and other people's behavior in the research, is that what lies at the heart of us
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becoming more productive, is this deliberateness, this intentionality, which absolutely has to
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precede whatever it is that we do. So in any moment of any day, we're either working with
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intention, there's intention behind what we're doing, you know, we choose what we do, what
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we focus on before we focus or do it. Or we're working on autopilot mode, just in response to
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what comes our way. And I think our productivity can be pegged to the breakdown of how much of
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our time we spend with intention. So intention, attention without intention is essentially just
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All right. So let's get into the science of attention. So like what happens, what's going
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on in our brain whenever we pay attention to something? Are there like certain parts that
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fire up or, you know, light up on, you know, MRIs or whatever?
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Yeah. Usually most of our brain is aligned, you know, our task positive network is what it's called
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in research, is active when we're focused on something, which involves the logical centers of
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our brain, it involves even the perceptual centers of our brain. And in research, it's known as being
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perceptually coupled. So all of our senses are coupled with what we're doing. And same with our
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thoughts, which are like our sixth sense, I like to think of it in those terms. And so our mind and
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body are both in sync with what we're doing. So there's fascinating research on this too. We even blink
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in accordance with what we're focused on. And so if you're listening to this podcast,
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and there's a pause after something we say, you might take a blink, same with in an audio book,
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same as if you're watching a TED talk or a speaker, or you're having a conversation, we blink, I think,
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every 15 to 20 seconds or so, but we do so in accordance with our attention. And so it's this
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fascinating idea where we're essentially immersed in something.
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And I think one of the things you highlight in the book is that, you know, we have this idea
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that we can multitask. And there's certain things we can multitask. But for the most part,
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we can only attend to one thing at a time, really. And it's not like we're doing both at the same
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time. We're switching our attention between all these different things really fast.
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Yeah. And this is, I think, you know, a lot of people mention multitasking,
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but without really working from the same definition. So what we say, you know,
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what we refer to when we're saying multitasking is really, like you said, just task switching,
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moving our attentional spotlight from one thing to another. And so when we do this,
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things take about 50% longer, it takes us that much longer to read a passage to finish a task.
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But multitasking is when we try to pay attention to things concurrently, which there are also a lot
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So, I mean, okay, what is, I mean, okay, how can we do that? If, how can we multitask? Is it
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possible to multitask? Because I've heard, I've heard, I've read different things like, oh,
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it's not, it's, it is possible. Like, oh no, it is impossible to multitask. Can, is it, is it possible?
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It is, but we can't do it very well. So we can't actively focus on more than one thing at one time.
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But there are some things that we can do that don't take any focus. And so maybe you're deep in
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a conversation with somebody as you're walking down the street, and you're focused completely
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on that conversation. You're totally immersed in it, the state of total immersion that I like to
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call hyperfocus. And you're really not thinking about the walking that you're doing. You're really
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not thinking about the hand gestures, the gesticulation that you're doing. You're really
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not thinking about maybe the gum that you're chewing. We can do a lot of things out of habit.
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And when we do something out of habit, it doesn't occupy our working memory, our, so our, essentially
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just our very short-term memory, like the tasks that we do. But where we run into trouble, and where
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our attention begins to become overwhelmed, is when we try to focus on more than one complex
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thing at one time. And so because we only have so much attention to give to the world around us
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in one moment, I believe we have about 40 bits that we can tend to in any one moment, but yet
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there are so many things that we can focus on in our environment. And because our attention is
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constrained in this way, we can only process so much in the moment. And especially when a task is
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complex, it requires and it asks more of our attention by default. And that's where we begin
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to run into troubles. If you are trying to carry on a conversation with two people at once, you would
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very quickly notice that you don't have the capacity to do so. But you do have the capacity to tend to a
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few habits while you do something complex. And so, you know, we can run on a treadmill while we listen to
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music, while we look at the TV that's up in front of us and process that a little bit. But any more
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than that, and once you try to do something more complex at the same time, that's really when you
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Right. And as you point out, we have so much competing for our attention. You might be in
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your inbox one moment, and then you go to Twitter the next, and then you're to a website, and you're
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back to your inbox. And all that switching, talk about how it leaves attentional residue, right?
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So let's say you're working on a report, and you go over to your inbox really quick, because you got
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a notification, you check it, and then you go back, you talk about how there's like, there's still a bit
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of attention lingering on that inbox. So it takes a while for us to get back and to focus on the report
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Exactly. And this is, I think, the biggest cost of constantly switching between things,
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is if we could totally switch from one thing to the next to the next without any fragments of the
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previous task occupying this working memory that we have. I like to call this working memory capacity
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our attentional space in the book. But there are fragments of the previous thing. So if you finish
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up a call that's very heated with somebody, or you're in this argument, and then you try to answer
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email, you're going to be less efficient at doing that. Certain things help you become a better
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custodian of this attentional space. The meditation is a very good example of one, where it's been shown
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to lead us to have less attentional residue as we switch from one thing to another. But there are
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always these fragments, which is, you know, not only do we have to shift from one context to another
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when we switch from one task to another, but we also are not able to bring our full attention to
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it at the start. One of the most fascinating studies that I had the chance to uncover was that
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when we're doing work in front of a computer, we can only focus, or on average, we only focus on one
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thing for 40 seconds before we switch to doing something else. So we're, in other words, very productive
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doing an Excel sheet or writing a report in Word, whatever it might be. But then for seemingly no
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reason, we go over to checking Instagram on our phone, we check an email notification in the corner
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of the screen. And so it, you know, it brings, you know, this technology that we use, it brings with it
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all this distraction that that is really quite costly. You know, attentional residue is one of the
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costs, but working with less focus, always having this diluted attention, not being able to remember
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as much because we process things with a different part of our brain when we multitask. All of these
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are costs that add up when we don't manage our attention properly.
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Yeah, I thought it was one of the big takeaways for me that really opened my eyes was, or surprised me,
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was whenever we are, say, working on a report or an Excel spreadsheet or reading or something,
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we're focused, we switch over to email, then we switch back and then, you know, I can just get
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right back in the groove because I was already in the groove. It takes like 26 minutes to get back
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into that focused state. Oh yeah. And it depends on that. This is, there's curious research on that
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too, where it depends whether you're interrupted by an external source or an internal source. And so
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we have this, this attention mechanism in our brain that is drawn to anything that is one of three
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things. It's drawn to anything that is pleasurable. It's drawn to anything that is threatening. And
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it's drawn to anything that is novel. And so we even have a novelty bias in our brain, where our
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brain releases more dopamine, which is the chemical, one of the pleasure chemicals, whenever we focus on
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something that's shiny or new and novel, like a, like an email notification or scrolling through a
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bunch of fitness feeds on Instagram. But when we have this novelty seeking behavior, where we seek out
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something that is novel and pleasurable, we even seek out threats. That's why so many of us are
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glued to the news. It takes us 29 minutes, more than 20. 26 is the average between the internal
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distractions and the external distractions, which are roughly even. We distract ourselves as much as
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we're distracted from other people. It's actually about a 50-50 split. But when we're distracted by
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something we do, it takes us 29 minutes to get back on track. And before we resume doing that task,
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we tend to, I believe it's 2.26 other tasks before resuming. So we don't just tend to one thing and then
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go back to that Excel sheet or whatever it is that we were doing before. We work on two other things
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before resuming that task if we're interrupted by somebody external to us.
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And so a notification that comes in, whatever it might be, a co-worker stopping by our office to
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ask how our weekend was. It takes us 23 minutes to get back on track after that point. And so we
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fare a bit better, but still the costs are pretty great. And if you don't believe that 29-minute
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figure, I had my doubts at first. So I started to try to observe this in my own behavior, in my own
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life before figuring out what I could do about it and in the lives of other people.
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And I saw this when I woke up in the morning. I'd wake up and my phone would wake me up. And so
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I would bounce over to Instagram because I got two notifications overnight. I found that I got
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two emails overnight. And so I tended to those. I bounced around between a loop of five or six
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apps. And before I knew it, 26 minutes had gone by. And so we can observe this pattern in our own
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behavior. Not only does it take a long time to get back on track when we're distracted or interrupted
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completely, but we shift around our attention quite a bit every 40 seconds. And so all of these
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figures, figures aren't too compelling. The statistics are never too motivating. But
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I think when you take all of this stuff together, we are in a state of divided attention when we work.
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Every 40 seconds, we switch. And we don't really have purpose. We don't have that intention
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behind what we're doing because we're drawn to anything that's novel, that's pleasurable,
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that's threatening. And so we really have to get ahead of ourselves in this way.
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To that point where our attention is divided, it takes a long time for us to get refocused after we
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distract ourselves or we are distracted. We might think we're getting a lot done by doing all this
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task switching, but it slows you down. You actually get less done. You might think you're
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getting a lot done, but you're actually getting less done because you're not in that focused state
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anymore. And that's the thing with our attention is we look at how busy we are as a proxy for how
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productive we are. Because when we do knowledge work for a living and we do brain work, it's impossible
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to measure. Most of us don't work on an assembly line anymore where we can measure our output in
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widgets every day. So we made 20 widgets today instead of 10 widgets yesterday. So we are twice
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as productive. And so we look at how busy we are as a proxy for how productive we are.
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And so the more emails we answer, the busier we think we are, the more productive we think we are,
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the more tweets we respond to and read, the more times we refresh CNN or the New York Times.
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The busier we are, the more productive we think we are. But really, so often the opposite is the
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case. And that's kind of the state of our attention too, is we've never been so busy,
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but have accomplished so little. To tie it back to that original definition of productivity,
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accomplishing what's important. That's how we should use our attention.
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So, I mean, we live in a distracted world because we have all this stuff, smartphones,
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a computer in our pocket at any moment where anybody can reach us or we can, if we're curious
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about something, we can find it. So, I mean, have these devices shrunk? So you talk about we have
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this attentional space. Has this stuff shrunk our attentional space because we, I don't know,
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we don't use our attention as much or we do a poor job of using it?
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Yeah, absolutely. We have less attention to give to the world around us. And the more deliberately
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we learn to manage our attention, the amount... This is the curious thing. There's a lot of brain
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training apps out there, but research shows that they don't really work over time. Once you stop
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doing them, you kind of lose all the gains that you made on them. But you can actually grow the amount
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of attention you have to give to the world around you. And so, you can grow your working memory
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capacity, this attentional space. And so, you're able to dive deeper into more complex ideas in the
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moment. The more distracted you are, the less you're able to delve deep into what's actually
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complex on a daily basis. And one proven way of doing that is meditation. Meditation is a brain
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training technique where you train your ability to give focus to what's in front of you in the
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present moment as opposed to wherever your attention wants to go to whatever is novel, pleasurable,
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or threatening. And so, it totally is possible to not only make your attention bigger and not only be
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able to take on things that are more complex, but it's possible that your attention can almost wither
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over time. It decreases as your energy levels falter, for example. It decreases the more
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distracted you are with your distractibility level. And so, it really does orbit around these different
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ideas. There is one kind of thing that I mentioned in the book, and it's the quality of our attention.
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The research kind of points to three measures that we can use to measure our progress with how focused
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we're able to become in the moment. The first is how long we can focus on one thing for. And so,
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past that 40-second mark, you know, if you think back to your last most productive day where you became
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immersed in conversations and what you were writing, you probably held your focus for more than 40 seconds.
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The second measure is how long your mind wanders for before you're able to catch it. And so, that's kind
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of a measure of how aware you are of your thoughts. And the third is how much of your time you spend
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with intention. So, how long you can focus for, how long your mind wanders for before you catch it,
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and how much of your time you spend with intention. And I think the better the quality of your attention,
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the better the quality of your life, because you can focus for longer and delve deeper into experiences.
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You can notice when your mind wanders away from maybe a meaningful conversation with your partner
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at the pub. You can notice when you're not working with intention. You can spend your time with greater
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intentionality behind what you're doing so that you can do things with purpose and not on this autopilot
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mode. And the more distracted we are, the lower the quality of our attention and the lower the quality
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of our life. Because really, when you look at a life, it's an accumulation of moments. And if each
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moment of your life, you're distracted, you're going to be living a distracted life and maybe burn
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through years of time, not really accomplishing or anything productive or meaningful.
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No, no, but it's true. I mean, what you're saying is our existence is what we pay attention to.
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Yes. What we pay attention to, that's our reality, right? If you pay attention to
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what you're angry about, you're going to become angry and become an angry person over time as
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those moments accumulate. But the same is true if you pay attention to what's productive and focus
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on that and do that, then you become a productive person. If you focus on what's meaningful at home
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in your life by practicing things like gratitude, you become a gracious person. You become somebody
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who's deserved of their success. And your life is enriched with meaning because of that.
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There's more fascinating science behind simply the depths of our relationships around how we
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manage our attention. You know how people put their phone face down on the table when they're with
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somebody? There was this team of researchers that went out and looked at people at coffee shops.
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And what they observed in these coffee shop patrons was that, on average, when somebody had their phone
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face down on the table in front of them, they had a good intention, an intention of focusing on what
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was there, which was the person that they were with. But on average, they checked their phone every
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three to five minutes. And when they surveyed people who checked their phone so often, when their partner
00:24:09.860
went up to go to the washroom, when there was a lull in the conversation, when they wanted to take a
00:24:14.980
picture, whatever it was, they found that those people rated their connection with the person and
00:24:21.260
the quality of their relationship and how close they felt to the person as significantly lower than
00:24:27.680
people who put their phones away. And speaking of the quality of our attention, this impacts almost
00:24:33.560
every element of our life. And more research needs to be conducted on this. But the less control we have
00:24:40.260
over our attention. The research shows that we feel less autonomous with the work that we do because
00:24:45.180
it's kind of natural. We work more often on autopilot. We have lower levels of self-acceptance,
00:24:51.380
so we don't accept ourselves and try to compensate for our insecurities. We have lower levels of happiness
00:24:58.160
and even life satisfaction when we have less control over our attention. And this starts when we're young,
00:25:04.980
which is, you know, it gives more concern to kids, how distracted kids are. The more text messages
00:25:13.100
that a kid sends, the less they rate the quality of their relationships, which is kind of ironic
00:25:19.100
because why are they sending the text messages in the first place? And the less control the kid has
00:25:24.260
over her attention, the less they feel like they can accept themselves or the less they feel like they
00:25:29.240
have control over their life. So, you know, by managing our attention, we really can reclaim this
00:25:36.380
big part of us that affects everything we experience.
00:25:40.180
So let's talk about how we can get into this hyper-focused state. So, I mean, okay, it is
00:25:47.940
But again, we should focus first probably on the quality of our attention. And you've mentioned this
00:25:53.280
about our conversation so far, but the first step is just being intentional about your attention,
00:26:00.320
like knowing what you're going to pay attention to.
00:26:02.220
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, essentially there's the four steps. There's choosing
00:26:06.700
an object of focus. That's number one. Number two is taming the distractions around us. Number three is
00:26:13.120
simply focusing because we've cleared all the brush out of the way and taming the distractions.
00:26:18.200
And the fourth is to bring our mind back to that object of intention when we notice that it's
00:26:24.800
wandered to think of something else. And so, the first idea, the idea behind this is, of course,
00:26:33.320
intention is at the heart of productivity. And so, by setting intentions more often, we can work more
00:26:39.480
deliberately and with intention. The rule of three, I think we talked about the rule of three last time,
00:26:43.620
but it's a very sticky rule and our mind is wired to think in threes. And so, when we set three
00:26:50.460
intentions at the start of the day, so we ask ourselves, by the time that this day is done, what
00:26:56.500
three main things will I want to have accomplished? It's a very simple rule, but it essentially gives
00:27:01.620
us something to focus on that's important throughout the day. And in the moment, we can also do this.
00:27:07.220
One of my favorite rituals, I don't do it as often as I did anymore, but it's setting an hourly
00:27:12.840
awareness chime. So, you set a timer on your phone for an hour or so, and when it goes off, ask
00:27:19.060
yourself, was I focusing on what I had set an intention for to do? How long was I focusing on
00:27:26.240
it for? Was my mind wandering? So, you can kind of check up on the quality of your attention at that
00:27:31.320
point. And there are a lot of different ways. I cover many of them in the book, like the rule of
00:27:37.220
three, like this hourly awareness chime, like finding our most consequential tasks. So, the ones
00:27:42.580
that have the, they're the equivalent of the first domino in a line of 100 that once you
00:27:49.260
tip it over, it sets off this cascading effect. So, things like mentoring a new employee, for example,
00:27:56.160
is infinitely more productive because it lets you accomplish what's important by making your team
00:28:01.400
more productive and efficient. Whereas, something else like just checking email might not have that
00:28:07.540
same effect, even though you're dealing with what's latest and loudest. So, that really is
00:28:11.780
the first step. You know, intention has to precede attention.
00:28:15.620
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Yeah, I think that's an important thing because if you don't have an intention,
00:30:32.660
you're going to let anything distract you, right?
00:30:36.020
And I tend to be like, this becomes a concern for me when I'm working on something that's
00:30:43.200
particularly boring, like super boring. Because that's when I know I'm going to be most distracted
00:30:48.240
and most like, I want to go check whatever. But usually that boring stuff, you said, it's like,
00:30:53.680
it's the important thing that will allow me to get more done down the road. So like mentoring the
00:30:58.960
new employee, it's super boring. It's super time consuming. But you want to be super focused on it
00:31:03.300
because it's going to pay dividends down the road.
00:31:07.040
Yeah. And if you look at, this is the odd thing about, you know, this second step,
00:31:12.280
taming distractions. If you look at the most important aspects of your work,
00:31:18.520
they're usually not as fun as checking Facebook or Twitter. That like so many of the distractions that
00:31:28.380
I face provide me with some source of validation in my life. So, you know, going to Amazon to check
00:31:35.480
my book ranking, checking my website analytics, but all of these things, you know, they provide us
00:31:41.080
essentially with the three things that our mind is drawn to by default. Either they're pleasurable,
00:31:46.700
or they're threatening, or they're novel. And they're always more of those three things
00:31:52.240
than what we ought to be doing. You know, Facebook in the moment will always be a more attractive
00:31:58.300
object of attention than what we truly ought to be accomplishing. The TV behind our wife or our
00:32:06.360
girlfriend at the pub will always be a more attractive object of attention because it's more
00:32:11.580
novel. It's more pleasurable. It's more threatening than the conversation. If we're in a fight, though,
00:32:16.660
we might focus on that instead. An email notification that comes in in the corner from somebody important,
00:32:22.680
it's always... Or not important, even if it's from Amazon announcing what Alexa features came out that
00:32:28.300
week, is always more attractive than the report that's in front of us. But this is where taming
00:32:34.980
distractions really comes into play. So, you know, right now I'm doing probably the most aversive thing
00:32:41.120
in my work, and I'm developing new speaking topics. So, I do some public speaking, and you have these
00:32:47.140
topics, and I hate defining them because it involves this... It's boring, like you said. It's frustrating.
00:32:52.940
It's difficult. It's ambiguous. It's unstructured, which are all triggers of procrastination as well,
00:32:59.980
and task aversion. And so, because... And so, earlier this day, I printed off the outlines to them,
00:33:05.960
and I went to a coffee shop here in this small town in Canada that I live in. And I got a coffee.
00:33:11.640
I left my phone at home. I left my laptop at home. I left every bit of technology that I have at home,
00:33:17.320
except for my noise-canceling headphones. I couldn't connect them to anything, but sometimes people have
00:33:21.480
loud conversations. And I just brought a pen. And so, I had no choice but to work on what was
00:33:26.660
important. And this is the key, I think, when it comes to taming distractions, especially with the
00:33:31.920
work that we find the most averse of, which are often our most productive things, is when we
00:33:37.520
eliminate every single potential object of attention that is more attractive in the moment
00:33:45.960
than what we truly want to be doing, like truly want to be doing in the moment we want something
00:33:50.740
else, we give ourselves no choice but to focus on what is actually important, on what we intend
00:33:58.180
to accomplish. And so, for this reason, taming distractions, it's more of a necessary tactic
00:34:05.200
when we're doing something that we find our mind is resisting. But it just makes it so much more
00:34:11.620
valuable because we're able to get into this hyper-focused state where we're totally immersed
00:34:17.080
in what we're doing. We can focus on anything, right? We can focus on anything for 40 seconds,
00:34:22.080
for example. But when we focus on something for longer than that point and become totally immersed in
00:34:27.980
it, you know, hyper-focused in this way is kind of this state that leads to flow, which you mentioned
00:34:33.620
off the top, I think, where we're totally immersed in what we're doing. And so, I think it's one of the
00:34:40.880
most essential parts of managing our attention is taming the distractions that will derail us in the
00:34:47.380
moment. Yeah, I think I'm a big proponent of, you know, taming your distractions, like getting rid of
00:34:52.200
them completely, like doing the Odysseus method, right? Like tying yourself to the mast so it's not even an
00:34:57.880
option to look at the thing. Because I think oftentimes people are like, well, I'll just like, I'll
00:35:01.700
constrain my, I'll restrain myself, right? I'll use my self-discipline to not check it. It's like, check
00:35:07.200
Twitter or whatever. It's like, well, just block Twitter. Like, you know, there's, and you've talked about
00:35:10.440
different methods you can do to tame distractions. You know, one thing I've done is I've taken off
00:35:16.100
Instagram off of my phone, you know, on Twitter. I just have, I don't even have email on my phone
00:35:20.800
anymore. So like my phone is just, I can check a few things on the web and take phone calls and text
00:35:25.820
messages, but that's about it. And there's lots of apps. And I think you mentioned a few in the book
00:35:30.360
and we have, we'll link to some on the site where you can block certain websites for certain periods
00:35:34.380
of time. That's something I do. But I find that more useful than trying to just use my, my grit and
00:35:41.020
self-discipline to not look at those things. Oh yeah. Because in the moment we have very little
00:35:45.100
of that. And this is, you know, this is what I found as a, you know, quote unquote productivity
00:35:50.080
expert is, you know, I felt and fell into the same pitfalls, even though I researched this stuff for a
00:35:54.660
living, of tending to my smartphone too often, of tending to email too often, of meetings even
00:36:00.540
expanding to fit how much time I have for them. And so taming them ahead of time really is the,
00:36:06.560
the best way to get out of this state of distraction, because in the moment we will be
00:36:13.340
attracted by other things. And so we have to get ahead of ourselves. That's, it's just the, the way
00:36:18.400
our brain is wired, right? And this aided our chances that survival, by the way. So, you know,
00:36:23.720
instead of becoming totally immersed in a fire that we were creating for, for the, the tribe we
00:36:30.240
were living in at the time and neglecting the saber-toothed tiger that was encroaching in on
00:36:36.560
our, our environment, we noticed the rustling in the trees. And so this distractibility actually
00:36:41.840
aided our chances at survival. We noticed the tiger approaching and so we survived to see another day.
00:36:47.200
Evolution rewards distraction. But, and so, you know, we noticed ourselves gravitating to the
00:36:53.400
pleasures too. If you, if you ever take a walk through nature, your mind naturally focuses on
00:36:58.600
the berries on, on a tree instead of on the leaves, because we evolved to look at the pleasure
00:37:04.160
in our environment, in our environment. You know, when, when a, somebody who's beautiful walks by,
00:37:09.500
we notice ourselves paying attention to them. But these days, you know, the nearest tigers are at the
00:37:16.520
zoo and food is far and plentiful. And so we tended to the distractions that the same evolution that's
00:37:25.680
built into our brain that, that has aided our chances at survival compromises our focus and our
00:37:30.760
productivity today. So we really, it really is an impulse. And so if we can regain control over that
00:37:36.280
by taming them ahead of time, we can really get ahead of, ahead of it.
00:37:39.860
So, okay. Tame distractions, get rid of, just get rid of stuff that distract you. And I think this
00:37:42.760
requires, you know, you to do sort of an audit of yourself. Like what is the most, and there's like
00:37:46.320
websites, there is apps that can help you figure out what you spend most of your time on and then
00:37:49.700
just eliminate those. And you mentioned, okay, stay focused. And one thing you can do is set that,
00:37:55.160
that chime every hour to make sure that you are still focused on the thing you intended to,
00:38:01.020
to focus on. How long is it possible to stay in this focused state? Is it something you can do an
00:38:06.840
hour, two hours? What does the science say? The science is curious about that. And it shows
00:38:13.820
that the deeper we care about what we're doing, the easier focus becomes because we kind of deplete
00:38:22.080
our focus whenever we have to exercise control over it. And so if you never have to exercise control
00:38:31.200
over your attention, because you care about the work you're doing so much, and it's pleasurable,
00:38:36.260
it's novel, it's threatening when the challenge of doing it is roughly equal to your skill level.
00:38:41.520
So it's, it's a challenge and it asks more of you, then we can focus on something for quite a long
00:38:47.560
time. So, you know, then sometimes we have no choice. If you're launching a satellite into space,
00:38:52.460
for example, you might use up all of this, this mental energy because you have to exercise control,
00:38:59.380
especially after the course of a few hours, but it's pleasurable or it's threatening,
00:39:03.820
it's novel, it's challenging. And so we need fewer breaks when we do it.
00:39:08.980
And this is why I think one of the best pieces of productivity advice out there,
00:39:12.620
people sometimes are drawn to productivity advice and my work I find for the wrong reasons,
00:39:18.320
because sometimes somebody finds that they don't care about the work that they're doing.
00:39:22.620
And then they try to come up with 20 hacks for becoming more productive every day.
00:39:27.260
But really the root problem is that they don't care and they're not naturally intrinsically
00:39:32.260
motivated by what they're doing. And so when we care about what we're doing, we're able to focus
00:39:37.040
on something for much, much longer. This is why, you know, there's no statistic out there that says
00:39:42.800
that this is how much attention you have for something. There are some studies that say,
00:39:47.680
yeah, we can focus on something for around 20 minutes and then need a break. So the Pomodoro
00:39:52.340
technique where we focus essentially in intervals for 25 minutes on something, then let our attention
00:39:57.200
rest for five, then 25, then five, then 25, then a longer break eventually after one of those 25
00:40:03.380
minute sessions. This is why TED Talks are about 18 to 20 minutes long, because that's kind of one,
00:40:10.540
one soft limit to our attention, but it really depends on what we're doing.
00:40:15.280
So you think the takeaway here is first, you know what you're going to focus on,
00:40:18.140
eliminate distractions. Because if, if you're distracted and switching between distractions
00:40:22.460
or between these different tasks, you're going to have attentional residue. You're going to take
00:40:27.260
longer to get focused again, make sure you're focused. And I think, yeah, like, I think most
00:40:32.720
people are like, yeah, I want to get focused. It's if I'm focused, I'm going to get so much done.
00:40:35.800
It's going to be great. Life's going to be amazing. But you are in the book, you're like,
00:40:39.240
there's, there's some downsides to being intently focused on something all the time.
00:40:45.420
Yeah. And that is, you know, we want to be focused on stuff all the time, but we just,
00:40:51.780
we can't do it. You know, we need to rest our attention. We need to recharge our attention
00:40:57.140
because, you know, like I was saying, we deplete our attention whenever we exercise control over it.
00:41:03.100
And so the more you need to exercise control over your focus in your life, the more you'll find
00:41:09.020
yourself having to realign to what's actually important every day. So that's, I think, a big
00:41:14.600
downside is we simply don't have the energy to focus and then we burn out. Then we have less
00:41:19.900
energy to, to approach our work with later on and, you know, work in these crazy hours.
00:41:25.420
It sometimes helps us in the short run, but in the long run, it's a recipe for just a productivity rut.
00:41:33.100
But also on the flip side, when you're focused, you are getting, you're, you're missing out on the
00:41:39.660
benefits of not being focused. People don't think about that. And that was like the second half of
00:41:44.020
the book was this, you talk about the benefits of what you call scatter focus. Yeah. So what is
00:41:50.060
scatter focus and why is it good to, what are the benefits of sort of letting your mind wander all the
00:41:54.800
time? So there is this mode of our brain and it's the default mode. And it's whenever we rest our
00:42:03.580
attention, we activate what is called the default mode network. So it's a nicely named network because
00:42:10.500
it's what we default to. And the beautiful part about this network is it is scattered across our
00:42:17.060
mind. And so you probably noticed this, you know, the last time you let your mind be, whether you're
00:42:22.740
taking a shower, whether you were waking up and your phone was in the other room, which is a marvelous
00:42:27.960
thing to do. It's it just keep a, get an old fashioned alarm clock, have your wristwatch, wake
00:42:33.260
you up, whatever, whatever it is, get your phone the hell out of your bedroom because you will activate
00:42:39.140
this, this resting mode of your mind. And it's scattered across your mind. And as such, the activity
00:42:47.180
we experience whenever we're in this mode is very, very random. You'll find yourself thinking about
00:42:53.600
things, you know, the knowledge you accumulated when you were studying yesterday, your past experiences,
00:43:00.200
your fantasies, what you'll do after listening to this podcast. And what I found in the research is
00:43:08.240
not only is this mode random, it helps us kind of rest and recharge, but it also has two other
00:43:14.360
benefits in addition to letting us rest up our attention. Because the more we need to regulate our
00:43:20.400
attention, the more we need to rest our attention. And so in addition to letting us rest, because we
00:43:25.680
deplete our attention whenever we exercise control over it. The second beautiful part about this,
00:43:31.580
this mode, I can't, I personally can't get enough of this mode right now, because I'm in this long term
00:43:37.180
planning stage with my work with my speaking topics with the books and stuff like that. But what the
00:43:44.240
research shows is that we plan for the future a ton when we are letting our mind rest and just
00:43:51.880
be. Whenever we're letting our mind rest, maybe in the shower, for example, we think about the future
00:43:57.680
and we plan for the future 48% of the time. And in research, this is called our mind's prospective
00:44:04.860
bias because we're setting intentions for what we'll do later that day in the office when we're taking the
00:44:10.520
shower. We'll set intentions for what we want to eat for dinner that day. We'll set intentions for
00:44:15.400
what we're going to do at the gym, how many deadlifts we're going to do that day. We'll take charge over
00:44:20.380
our attention because we let our mind rest. And in that 48%, if you break it down, break it down now,
00:44:26.440
you know, I love the numbers behind this. We think about the immediate future just later on in that day,
00:44:31.920
44% of the time. We think about the next day 40% of the time. So we're usually planning,
00:44:37.320
we're setting intentions, we're taking charge. And we think we think about the past quite a bit in
00:44:42.040
this mode. But the research shows that this isn't really the case. We only think about the past 12%
00:44:48.720
of the time. And, you know, the rest of the time, we're thinking about the present 28% of the time,
00:44:55.020
and the rest of the time, we're thinking about ideas. And so we plan when we're in this mode. And if we
00:45:00.120
talk about working with greater intention, it is impossible to set an intention when you're,
00:45:06.200
or nearly impossible when you're focused on what it is that you're doing. So in this way,
00:45:11.160
so much of productivity is about taking this step back from what we have to do over the course of
00:45:15.860
the day. And the third idea is that we are able to connect ideas whenever we're in this mode. So we
00:45:24.660
get to rest our attention, we plan, and we connect ideas. So when our mind bounces from the past to
00:45:31.860
the present, to the future, we are able to connect all three. In the shower, we think about how we
00:45:38.540
resolved a dispute at work two years ago. And then we think about a dispute that we're having
00:45:43.520
at work later that day, and how we're going to solve it the same way. We think about the ideas,
00:45:49.240
the book that we were reading the day before, and connect that to a conversation we're going to have
00:45:53.380
with our spouse later on that day. We're able to connect the past to the present to the future,
00:45:57.780
which lets us unearth these marvelous ideas that we would never get when we're doing something else.
00:46:05.500
Right. Yeah. Because if you're, it's funny. Yeah. All my good ideas come when I'm not
00:46:09.360
trying to get good ideas. Right. Because when you're trying to like, okay, guys, I think that's
00:46:14.940
why brainstorming sessions are so ineffective. It's like, all right, guys, come up with a good idea.
00:46:19.080
And you're so focused on coming up with a good idea that you don't see yourself like all the other
00:46:26.380
options out there when you're in sort of a wandering, scatter-focused state.
00:46:30.940
One of the best things, if you are doing a brainstorming meeting, is to ask people not
00:46:35.640
to have coffee beforehand, and to have it first thing in the morning. And the reason for that
00:46:40.500
is because coffee kind of narrows in our attention. And so, it's easier to focus when we consume
00:46:47.680
caffeine. And first thing in the morning is usually when people are kind of easing into the day,
00:46:53.260
they have less energy, they're still waking up. And after we wake up is when our mind is the least
00:46:59.140
inhibited. It's when our prefrontal cortex, which generates the ideas in our mind, is the least
00:47:03.380
inhibited. And so, we fire up this default mode of our brain. Maybe if your team is full of morning
00:47:11.440
birds, for example, and you find that everybody has a lot of energy and likes their coffee in the
00:47:16.300
morning, have a drink or two after work if that's a ritual that you guys enjoy. And because this
00:47:23.200
alcohol has a weird effect over our attention, it makes us less aware that our mind is wandering,
00:47:28.480
and it makes our mind wander more often. But it also lets down the guard of our attention,
00:47:33.960
which lets our mind wander more frantically and all over the place to not focus on anything in
00:47:40.180
particular. And so, there are fascinating ways. And also, have the meeting in a messy room
00:47:46.880
because these serve as powerful cues that we should connect disparate ideas. It's a weird one,
00:47:54.180
but the worst place you could have a brainstorming meeting is in a clean office or a meeting room
00:47:59.260
because that sense of order actually affects our focus as well.
00:48:04.180
Right. So, maybe have two places. You have your focus place where it's clean,
00:48:08.280
it looks like an Apple ad, right? Yeah. The sterile Johnny Ive room.
00:48:13.200
Right. You have your creative place, which is just a mess, right? And you go there when you're...
00:48:17.420
Another thing that I've seen research on that helps get you into that scatter, that default mode and
00:48:22.160
get you more creative is staying up all night. Like, getting less sleep can do that. And I've done it
00:48:27.040
before. I've pulled all night. Every now and then. I don't do it all that for you. Sometimes when I'm
00:48:31.100
having a hard time with an article or something I'm working on, I'll stay up all night. And the benefits of
00:48:36.660
that first, there's no distractions because everyone's asleep. No one's sending you emails.
00:48:40.580
No one's tweeting. No one's doing anything. And the other, it's just like, your brain kind of
00:48:45.580
goes to mush a little bit and you start getting some great ideas. And then, of course, it's not
00:48:50.740
focused. It's not organized, but I can get it down. And then the next day, or I guess two days later,
00:48:55.480
when I've caught up on sleep, clean it up and get it focused.
00:48:59.180
Yeah, you got to climb out of that rut. But it does, you know, I think it was Edison that
00:49:04.240
fell asleep with a handful of marbles over a metal plate. And so, the idea was that when
00:49:11.160
he fell asleep and his mind started wandering, because sleep, this is the fascinating part about
00:49:16.860
sleep, is the same regions of your brain that are activated when you're letting your attention rest.
00:49:23.000
If you're letting your attention rest purposefully, I call that scatter focus when you activate this
00:49:28.140
default mode with intention. The same regions of your brain are activated then as when you're
00:49:33.420
sleeping, only they're activated with fury, with fire and fury whenever you're sleeping.
00:49:41.220
And so, when you kind of fall into that deeper state of sleep, and the idea behind what Edison
00:49:49.320
did was the handful of marbles fell, he lost control over his motor system, that woke him up and
00:49:54.800
he captured whatever ideas were on his mind at the time. It was this fascinating strategy that he
00:50:01.540
used and that other people, you know, so many ideas come to us in our sleep. Sometimes we wake up
00:50:07.220
because something is so powerful, but we're usually not aware of them. And so, you know, it's definitely
00:50:12.620
not a long-term recipe, but if you have the freedom and flexibility to do so, sometimes you will become
00:50:18.720
more creative after that state. Yeah. Salvador Dali did that too. Yeah. That's who it was. Yeah.
00:50:25.020
We wrote an article about that. He would have the keys dangling over metal and then fall asleep,
00:50:29.360
I think. Yeah. Like a pie pan or something. So, we have these two stages we can be in. We can be in
00:50:33.640
hyper-focused, scatter-focused. And so, you make the case like you need to be strategic about using
00:50:38.760
these. So, there's a time to be focused, but there's also a time you need to allow your mind to wander so
00:50:43.820
you can get these new ideas. You can plan for the future. So, I mean, what would a schedule look
00:50:48.860
like? Are you alternating between the two? Are there certain times of the day when you should do
00:50:52.700
hyper-focus, scatter-focus? What would a day look like for somebody, an average person?
00:50:58.020
Yeah, for sure. I think it begins with setting an intention. The way I recommend it is over the
00:51:05.300
course of a week. And what I personally like to do, what I find works really well, is at the start of
00:51:10.340
the week, I ask myself, Kate, how much will I need to be productive this week? How much do I have to
00:51:17.460
focus on? How much do I have to write, for example? And how much creativity will I need this week as
00:51:22.840
well? And that kind of dictates... I'd be lying if I said I overthought this. It's a thought that I have
00:51:30.160
when I'm setting my three intentions for the start of every week because this is what allows me to
00:51:35.820
accomplish what's important. And I probably spent five minutes looking at my schedule while I'm
00:51:41.680
setting these intentions and thinking, okay, how much focus will I need this week? How much creativity
00:51:46.200
will I need this week? And depending on that balance, I'll schedule bouts of time for entering
00:51:51.840
into a state of total immersion where I attain the distractions ahead of time and also finding a few
00:51:58.100
things to do if I need the creativity, which I usually do because not only do we get the creativity,
00:52:03.980
we also get the planning stage, which helps us work more deliberately. We get the resting stage.
00:52:09.840
And the best tip that I could give that I offer up in the book and that I'll offer up now for
00:52:15.140
entering into this intentional state of mind wandering is to do something habitual at the
00:52:20.620
same time that you do it. And so, you know, maybe you can let your mind wander a little bit,
00:52:25.120
which is good for capturing what's on your mind. Or if you're chewing over a specific problem,
00:52:29.060
it's nice to keep a problem center of mind and kind of, you know, chew it over as you go for a
00:52:35.100
walk. But when we do something habitual at the same time that we scatter our attention,
00:52:41.000
so when we take an extra long shower, when we swim laps at the pool without any music in our ears,
00:52:46.100
or maybe a simple bit of music, because when music is simple and it sounds familiar to us,
00:52:52.320
it leads to greater focus. Side note on that, one of the fascinating people,
00:52:59.040
maybe one of the most fascinating people out of the many that I talked to in writing this book,
00:53:03.680
his name is Jerry Martin. And he's composed music that hundreds of millions of people have consumed
00:53:10.400
and bought, but yet nobody knows his name. And it's because he designs video game music,
00:53:15.100
he designed the soundtrack for Sims and SimCity. And when I interviewed him, he said that the most,
00:53:21.180
the music that's most conducive to focus is simple. And so, there are very few elements,
00:53:27.820
and it's familiar. And so, when we listen to music, when we're doing something habitual,
00:53:31.740
it lets us focus on what we're doing. But doing something habitual, curiously in research,
00:53:37.640
it leads to the greatest number of creative insights. And it's fun, you know, we're able to rest
00:53:42.680
while we scatter our attention because we're doing something that we love. And while we periodically
00:53:48.220
check up on what's on our mind so we can capture these ideas. And so, you know, when you start the
00:53:53.800
week, I would recommend asking, okay, how much focus will I need this week? What distractions will
00:53:59.440
come up that I haven't tamed? Can I create a distraction-free mode in which I can become totally
00:54:05.240
immersed in what I'm doing? Are there more opportunities than usual to let my mind wander?
00:54:09.860
Is there a place I can go to focus deeply on a project? And then, you know, don't overthink it,
00:54:15.060
but structure your week a bit around that idea where you can get ahead of your attention.
00:54:21.020
You know, that's kind of the theme that courses through the book, I think, is we have to get
00:54:25.220
ahead of our attention. We have to tame distractions ahead of time. We have to think about our week ahead
00:54:29.480
of time. We have to think about what we're doing throughout the day ahead of time. But by doing
00:54:33.680
that, we can become a lot more productive as well as creative.
00:54:37.560
Yeah. One of my favorite mindless tasks to get you in that sort of scatter focus mode is walking.
00:54:42.520
A lot of great, like Immanuel Kant, I know people could time, you know, set their watches for the
00:54:48.540
time when he would go walk, by the time he went walking. He'd just use that time and he probably
00:54:52.500
came up with ideas. Thoreau did that, Nietzsche, Darwin, a lot of these great, like they would
00:54:57.400
work really hard in the morning and then they would take a break and walk for an hour or two
00:55:01.040
and then they'd come back and work a little bit more. Well, hey, Chris, this has been a great
00:55:05.480
conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book?
00:55:07.660
Yeah. So the book is called Hyperfocus, How to Be More Productive in a World of Distraction.
00:55:16.060
And it's available in bookstores everywhere. Support your local bookstores, I like to say,
00:55:21.720
because I know many of them and they're all fun people who love books, as I'm sure the folks
00:55:26.060
listening do too, but it's available in e-copy. It's available on Amazon, wherever books are sold.
00:55:34.240
All right, Chris Bailey. Thanks so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.
00:55:37.460
My guest is Chris Bailey. He's the author of the book Hyperfocus, How to Be More Productive
00:55:41.260
in a World of Distraction. It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. Also check
00:55:45.100
out his blog, alifeofproductivity.com, where you can find more information about his work. Also check
00:55:49.840
out our show notes at aom.is slash hyperfocus, where you can find links to resources, where you can delve
00:56:06.160
Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,
00:56:11.800
make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And if you enjoy
00:56:15.280
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00:56:18.100
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00:56:21.780
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00:56:24.960
As always, thank you for your continued support. Until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay