The Art of Manliness - #443： What Building Your Own Coffin Teaches You About Life, Death, and Meaning

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00:00:56.660 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. When David Giffels

00:01:14.640 was 50 years old and completely healthy, he decided to build his own coffin with his 81-year-old

00:01:19.300 master craftsman father. Why? Well, I asked him that on the podcast today. David Giffels,

00:01:23.360 a writer who previously published a book of essays about growing up in the rust belt of

00:01:26.640 Ohio in the 1970s called The Hard Way on Purpose. In his latest book, Furnishing Eternity,

00:01:31.520 A Father, A Son, A Coffin, and A Measure of Life, he recounts the experience of building his own coffin

00:01:36.040 with his father and the lessons about life, aging, and death that he picked up along the way.

00:01:40.040 We begin our show discussing why men in the rust belt live by the motto, The Hard Way on Purpose, 0.99

00:01:43.540 and how it manifests itself in their undying loyalty to their sports teams that come up short year after

00:01:47.700 year. We then shift gears and discuss David's project of building his own casket with his dad,

00:01:51.680 the expectations he had going into it, and why lying in your own coffin is unfortunately not

00:01:56.220 as profound an experience as you'd think it would be. After the show's over, check out the show notes

00:01:59.520 at aom.is slash giffels. David Giffels, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. All right,

00:02:13.800 so you wrote a book called Furnishing Eternity, A Father, A Son, A Coffin, and it's all about you

00:02:19.960 building a coffin with your, your own coffin with your dad. But before we get to that morbid story,

00:02:24.980 let's, let's talk about your home state of Ohio because you write a lot about that and it comes

00:02:31.460 up in the book as well. Before this one, you wrote a collection of essays called, about the rust belt

00:02:37.080 called The Hard Way on Purpose. I love the title of that. How does that describe, you know, The Hard

00:02:42.740 Way on Purpose describe the character of the rust belt in Ohio? Yeah, I think it describes, especially for

00:02:49.240 my generation, which is the people who came of age after the boom years, after the sort of the,

00:02:56.100 the glory of, of industry and really only knew our hometowns as places that had fallen onto hard

00:03:03.040 times. To, to commit to a place like Akron, Ohio or Detroit or Buffalo or, you know, Des Moines was,

00:03:11.320 was to make a conscious decision not to do things the easy way or the glamorous way. You know,

00:03:16.720 a lot of my friends from college moved to Chicago because that was a Midwestern place that seemed

00:03:23.620 like, you know, sort of the, the, the easier way on purpose. And, you know, at first it's sort of a

00:03:29.680 commitment to the sort of the grittiness and, and the struggle, but then like, you know, the,

00:03:35.540 the on purpose part is that it just becomes your way of doing things sort of like I, I use an analogy

00:03:41.880 in that book of Jack White from, from the White Stripes who talked about when he was on stage,

00:03:47.400 when he would have the stage set up, if the organ needed to be like three feet away for him to reach

00:03:52.600 it, he would have the, the stage crew put it four feet away to create that sort of tension of,

00:03:58.400 of the performance. And I, I kind of think that's a metaphor for the, the, the way we,

00:04:02.860 we do things here. I mean, you know, it would be much easier to root for the New England Patriots,

00:04:07.400 but we love the Cleveland Browns. Well, that, that comes up to the sports, you know, I think

00:04:14.000 everyone knows about Ohio and their, you know, and their love for their, their losing teams. Like,

00:04:21.560 you know, for example, the Cleveland Browns. I mean, what do you, what do you think that says

00:04:24.740 about, I mean, is that, that, that hard way on purpose attitudes? Like, yeah, things are bad,

00:04:28.860 but we're going to, we're gritty. We're going to stick through it no matter what.

00:04:31.860 Yeah. But Brett, you, you said our losing teams and it's, it's not that we lose. It's that we

00:04:36.740 always almost win. Yeah. And that's, you know, we're like Charlie Brown who just keeps believing

00:04:42.420 that Lucy's not going to pull the football away when he's trying to kick it because we just always 1.00

00:04:47.680 have gotten so close. And in fact, when LeBron James came back and sort of delivered on his promise

00:04:54.100 to bring a championship two years ago, there was a little bit, not just for me, but I think for a

00:05:00.800 certain kind of person, a little bit of ambivalence. Like, you know, we had the distinction

00:05:05.620 of having gone 52 years longer than any other, you know, pro sports city without a championship.

00:05:12.740 And, you know, anyone can win a championship because everyone else had, but we had that one

00:05:17.080 thing that we were like the, the long, you know, still in the struggle. And so it was great when he

00:05:23.420 won, but it was kind of an identity check. It's kind of like, you know, now that you've won a

00:05:27.120 championship, you don't really have that sort of mantle of, of, of, of hard times.

00:05:32.560 Yeah. I like that idea that you didn't, you're not, you don't lose. You just almost,

00:05:36.680 right. Almost won a lot. I mean, I mean, what do you think the difference between that,

00:05:40.540 that what's the distinction there? Is it like, there's like hope in the almost winning or there's

00:05:44.820 like no hope in always losing? Yeah. I mean, there's a beautiful and terrible hope in that

00:05:50.040 because, because it's not total despair because there's always that glimmer that we were just there.

00:05:55.680 We were just on the goal line when we fumbled or we were just about to make the final out when,

00:05:59.660 when it dribbled, you know, past the, the shortstop or whatever that, that leads you to a kind of hope

00:06:05.860 that's, that's not manifested by any truth so far, but you still believe it's there. And, you know,

00:06:11.980 that's a, it's a great human thing. I mean, that's, you know, that carries far beyond sports,

00:06:17.820 but it's also a terrible thing because you've never had proof that, that your hope will be

00:06:23.660 fulfilled, but you keep at it, you know, so it's, it's a delicate line, but, um, it's one that seems

00:06:30.680 to really be reinforced, you know, in so many parts of our culture. I mean, sports is just a,

00:06:36.600 just one example, but, you know, in economically and culturally so forth.

00:06:43.620 Yeah. I mean, what I, what I liked about that distinction, it sounds like when you say like,

00:06:46.660 we almost, we almost won instead of saying we lost, like it sort of, it gives you the idea,

00:06:53.500 it gives you your like sense of autonomy. It's like, we did everything we could.

00:06:57.580 Right. But we just came up short for whatever reason, you know, going back to sports, you know,

00:07:01.480 a lot of the reasons, like the, those teams came up short, it was just like a fluke, right? A fumble,

00:07:05.880 the ball bounced the wrong way. It wasn't anything you could have done. And that happens a lot in life

00:07:10.680 and you did everything you can. And instead of saying like, man, I'm a loser, which is sort of

00:07:14.780 like definitive and, uh, universal. It's like, well, I almost won. I think, I don't know for

00:07:20.900 some reason it's, yeah, like you said, it's very hopeful. Yeah. You know, the older I get,

00:07:24.620 the more I really think that like the highest highs of my life and the lowest lows of my life

00:07:29.760 are really more similar than different. Like that, that intensity, the intensity of, of losing or of

00:07:36.840 almost winning is very similar to the intensity, the intensity of winning or almost having lost,

00:07:44.480 you know, um, as opposed to like the vast middle of what most of life is about where, you know,

00:07:51.200 the day when nothing really happened, isn't the day you remember, you know, 10 years later,

00:07:55.740 you remember the death of somebody you love, or you remember your wedding day, you know,

00:07:59.940 in ways they're very similar. So, you know, like, I, I guess I can handle losing more because I define

00:08:08.240 it as not winning and not, you know, in, in every part of life. Well, I got to ask you,

00:08:13.500 cause I, I'm an OU grad. Do you think Baker Mayfield is going to turn around the Cleveland Browns?

00:08:19.580 Well, of course I do. Just like I did with the other 30 quarterbacks in the last 15 years.

00:08:25.580 But, um, what I like about him so far is that he has a sense of humor. And if you live in Cleveland,

00:08:34.880 you need to have a sense of humor and, and the more bitter and twisted, the sense of humor, the

00:08:40.220 better. But I mean, he, I don't know if you've seen the video of him doing his imitation of John

00:08:45.260 Dorsey, the Browns general manager, but it's, it's hilarious. And, and it's, you know, it's,

00:08:51.560 it's like born of, of a true spirit of humor. He's going to need it.

00:08:55.580 You know, like no matter what, for at least a couple of years, he's going to need that sense

00:08:59.740 of humor. But yeah, so far I, I, I like everything about him.

00:09:03.460 Well, what, that's interesting. What do you think the humor is like in Ohio? Thanks to,

00:09:08.540 or particularly cause like there's, you know, Oh, you know, I think Ohio gets a lot of attention

00:09:13.020 particularly during election years and it's sort of treated as a monolith, but it's not right.

00:09:18.260 There's like, you know, Southern Ohio is sort of like Appalachia almost. And then Northern

00:09:22.660 Ohio is something different. So like, I mean, let's say Northern Ohio, where a lot of the

00:09:26.020 industrial towns are like, what, how is that? Like, do they have, is there like a sense of

00:09:30.020 gallows humor there you think?

00:09:32.060 Yeah, absolutely. It's a, it's a, yeah, it's, it's definitely the humor that comes from people

00:09:37.020 who've been through a struggle, which is, which is, has its own kind of edge to it. And, you know,

00:09:43.580 and from a place that doesn't have a lot of sunny days and people, you know, sort of live in a,

00:09:49.800 sort of with a kind of wry understanding of what it means to live in a kind of darkness,

00:09:54.920 but especially because, you know, for more than a generation, we've grown so used to being the

00:10:02.940 punchline of, of other people's jokes, so used to being misunderstood or ignored that we are very

00:10:10.520 quick to get to the punchline quicker. And that, you know, that's a cultural thing. Like when you've

00:10:15.260 been kind of like laughed at and you learn how to laugh at yourself better and quicker,

00:10:19.540 you kind of diffuse somebody else's attempt to do it.

00:10:24.340 Right. Now I've seen that YouTube video about Cleveland, like someone like made a commercial

00:10:28.700 about Cleveland.

00:10:29.760 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Those are great. Yeah. The, the ironic, uh, chamber of commerce,

00:10:34.760 right.

00:10:35.040 Uh, Cleveland it's, it's not as bad as you think kind of vibe to it. Yeah. It's awesome.

00:10:39.960 Well, I, I mean, I think, uh, this kind of, this sense of gallows humor, uh, leads to a great segue

00:10:46.000 to, uh, your new book, furnishing eternity, which is about building your own coffin, which I guess

00:10:51.260 is something that someone who grew up in the rust belt, watching basically the city decay and, and,

00:10:57.640 and diminish something that that person would do. I'm curious, like, why did you like, what

00:11:02.260 kickstarted this? Like, why did you decide I want to build my own coffin? Cause you're a young guy.

00:11:07.060 I mean, how old were you when you decided to do this?

00:11:08.840 I was, I was nearing 50 and it was not so much the press of mortality or, you know, like the sort

00:11:17.640 of the big ideas of life. What it really started out as was a sort of quasi argument between my wife

00:11:24.480 and me. And we just celebrated our 30th anniversary. And when you've been married a long time, very often

00:11:31.520 what, what sounds to other people like an argument between the couple is actually just us practicing

00:11:36.780 our material. And so my wife comes from, she's from a first generation Sicilian, very old school

00:11:43.520 Sicilian Catholic mother and, and a father who was from the Hills of Kentucky with very old sort of

00:11:50.560 traditional notions about most of life, including the way a funeral should be, which is the sort of

00:11:57.080 formal Catholic go to the funeral home by the manufactured, you know, sort of Ethan Allen type

00:12:03.380 piece of furniture and spend a lot of money on it. And that's how things are done. And I, you know,

00:12:09.000 in response to that had this sort of half-baked idea that I just wanted to be thrown into a dumpster 0.95

00:12:13.920 after I die. And so I would exaggerate my side of it and she would exaggerate her side of it.

00:12:20.380 When we would have this debate, especially in front of other people to the point where it became like,

00:12:25.820 well, I am never going to be buried in a $5,000 piece of furniture. I want to be buried in a cardboard

00:12:31.760 box. And then she would, you know, this would go on. And so, you know, my dad is a, was a, a master

00:12:38.700 furniture builder and, and carpenter and made lots of furniture for us and for my siblings and so

00:12:45.660 forth. So one night we're having this, this sort of debate and I just looked at my dad and it was just

00:12:51.240 really literally just sort of a spontaneous, whimsical thing. I was like, you know what? You and I could

00:12:57.480 probably build a pretty cool casket together. And it was like immediately, cause I'm a cheapskate

00:13:03.160 too. I'm like, it probably costs a couple hundred bucks, you know? And it'd be some, it'd be one of

00:13:08.680 those weird things that we like doing together. So, you know, so really it was not any more than

00:13:15.420 that, than this sort of like, just might be crazy enough to work idea that somehow took hold.

00:13:22.540 Right. So there was no like existential nemento mori thing. Like you didn't think like this would

00:13:28.160 be a great book. You're just like, no, I'm going to build a, I'm going to build a coffin because my

00:13:32.820 wife thinks that's dumb and I, let's do it. 0.99

00:13:35.160 Yeah. Well, here's where it gets weird. Here's where fate comes in. Cause you're right. It wasn't 0.98

00:13:39.320 initially, but very soon I'm like, you know, I think I would like to write about this. And then I'm

00:13:43.500 like, you know, I'm getting to that point in my life as, as a person and as a writer where,

00:13:49.100 you know, the big ideas are important and, you know, this could be my death book, you know,

00:13:54.460 like I could sort of philosophically, esoterically think about the notions of mortality and death,

00:13:59.420 but I hadn't lost anybody very, very close to me really in my life yet. Both my parents were still

00:14:05.360 living, you know, I, I hadn't really had like, you know, the sort of unexpected death of somebody at

00:14:11.320 the, at an age that seemed too young, you know, so close to me that it had really kind of hit,

00:14:16.320 you know, sort of punched right in the stomach. And so I'm like, yeah, so I'm going to use this,

00:14:22.300 the, the template of this narrative of my dad and I doing this project together

00:14:26.700 as a way to explore the big, one of the big themes, you know, that writers should take on

00:14:31.400 and ha ha ha writing gods said. And so within a year, my mom unexpectedly died. She had been

00:14:38.300 struggling with cancer, but she had a heart attack and it just kind of took her right down.

00:14:42.120 And then a year later, while we're still in this project, my best friend who was my age, who,

00:14:48.520 you know, too young to die, not even 50 also died. And so it was kind of like the writing god said,

00:14:54.600 oh, you want to dabble with the mortality theme, do you? Yeah. So here you go. So it really, I mean,

00:15:00.900 it changed everything completely. It changed the book completely and it changed, you know,

00:15:04.740 the, the, my life completely. And, you know, kind of taught me a very humbling lesson about,

00:15:12.840 you know, how to think about things and, and the, the actual lack of agency that writers have when

00:15:22.080 we believe we have sometimes complete agency. I mean, how did, how did your, you know, losing your

00:15:27.380 mother and your friend so close together? And while you were doing this project of building your own

00:15:32.740 coffin, how did that change the project? Like when you were working on the coffin, like, did it take

00:15:38.200 on like significance? Like it was more heavy on you? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, first of all,

00:15:46.260 because I was writing the book, actively writing the book when that happened, you know, and this was a

00:15:51.660 different kind of book. It was more like it's, I mean, it's a memoir, but it's really, it was really

00:15:55.660 more journalistic because I was documenting the process of building this thing as it was happening.

00:16:01.380 And so when these events unexpectedly come in, I had to deal with them, you know, in a practical

00:16:07.800 way as a writer. And, and so first, you know, when my mom died, you know, I'm actively grieving her

00:16:14.180 and trying to make sense of it. The chaos of grief, grief is violent and, you know, and got moves and

00:16:21.840 cycles that are hard to understand. And, and to try to gather that as a writer and, and make sense of

00:16:29.600 it on the page was a huge challenge. And, and, and then a year later to go through it again with my

00:16:37.640 friends. So logistically it, it was troubling, but then, yeah. So then going back, you know, to my

00:16:44.980 dad's, my dad's workshop was in his barn, kind of out in the country in a sort of suburban township

00:16:52.820 near Akron, Ohio, where I live. So I'd make these tracks out to his barn and work there sometimes

00:16:58.060 alone. And I found it to be therapeutic because even though I'm obviously building my own coffin,

00:17:07.540 which seems like a sort of like, you know, sort of overt, you know, connection with, with the death

00:17:14.040 and, and the, the, the temporal nature of life, it was really just, you know, sort of a process that

00:17:20.040 I could put my hands on and understand in a much more concrete, tangible way than, than trying to

00:17:28.240 understand the concept of the, that, that my mom wasn't there to ask a question of, or that my friend

00:17:34.580 John wasn't there to say, let's go see a band, you know? So, so this sort of, it was a weirdly a kind

00:17:42.040 of a comfort just because it was something that I could work on and also work on with my dad who,

00:17:47.060 you know, I suddenly became hyper aware, you know, dad is 83 years old, you know, he's old,

00:17:52.820 he's the oldest person I know, you know, like constantly thinking, you know, am I going to get

00:17:57.080 the phone call that he's, you know, something suddenly happened to him. So, you know, just to

00:18:02.160 spend time with him where it wasn't about, you know, thinking of his mortality, but just, you know,

00:18:07.080 this thing we were working on was, was helpful.

00:18:09.580 Well, he developed lung cancer during this thing as well, right?

00:18:14.640 Yeah. He, he sort of, he sort of tricked me because he actually, yeah, he, he, just as we got the idea

00:18:22.440 that we were going to do this project, he was diagnosed with, with cancer and he had to undergo

00:18:29.840 treatment. And it was pretty heinous treatment. I mean, they, they, they basically just put him in

00:18:35.540 this, like, look like the, the man in the iron mask contraption that they would strap him down 0.94

00:18:40.820 on this thing and just blast the shit out of it with, with radiation. And he, man, he would come 0.94

00:18:48.680 home and he just go to work in his garden, you know, from, from each day's treatment. Like he sort

00:18:56.240 of really deliberately tried to make this not be what his life was about. And by virtue of that,

00:19:04.640 it made me think, well, you know, I'm sure cancer's bad, but look, you know, dad's so tough,

00:19:10.520 you know, like, look, look how he's doing it. And so, you know, for, for about the five years that this

00:19:16.940 project spanned, he was being treated in, in some way or another for, for cancer, but,

00:19:24.980 but proving that, that you can, you know, live a vibrant life without it. I mean, I mentioned

00:19:30.300 before that I thought of him as the oldest person I knew. And especially after my mom died and I saw

00:19:35.960 the way he dealt with it, he also seemed like the most alive person I knew. Like he never talked about

00:19:41.520 it, but you could just sort of see by the way he was living that he was going to make the very most of,

00:19:46.220 of the time and energy that he had. And so he, he really lived, I mean, you know, it's cliche,

00:19:52.560 but he lived life to the fullest in the final years of his life. And I should point out the book

00:19:57.660 ends with us, you know, sort of finishing this process and the book, and then, you know, it takes

00:20:05.060 about a year for, for a book to come out after the time the manuscript's been accepted. This book came

00:20:10.580 out on January 2nd, and three days later, my dad died. I'm really sorry. So it was kind of,

00:20:15.320 yeah, thanks. I, it was, um, it was, you know, definitely the strangest irony of my life and

00:20:22.300 probably of his life, but, but in a way it was kind of, uh, I, I was really glad that we had done

00:20:29.420 this and really glad that he had gotten to see, uh, what the book was and, and to get to understand

00:20:34.820 it. But, you know, again, it's, it's kind of like, you know, this, this book has had a weird life of its

00:20:40.420 own from the very beginning and taught me a lot more than I ever could have guessed it would.

00:20:45.280 We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

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00:23:13.320 so let's let it be weird. Go check this out. Definitely be a game changer. And now back to

00:23:17.320 the show. I'm curious. What's it? I know there's a lot of our listeners who are probably your age in

00:23:23.280 their 50s. And that's kind of a weird time because if your parents are still alive, they're

00:23:28.520 in their 80s probably. They're getting sick. And then you finally lose. I mean, what's that like

00:23:33.460 seeing your parents slowly decline? And then finally, and then what's it like when you no

00:23:40.920 longer have parents on there? It's like, did you feel something different? I remember my mom when

00:23:45.060 my grandfather died not too long ago. She finally says, I finally, it's weird not having

00:23:50.500 parents on earth. It's like, I feel like an adult, like fully an adult almost.

00:23:56.100 Yeah. I think specifically as sort of a generation Xer, there's something about the way we view aging

00:24:06.860 and mortality that's unique to our generation, which is that like, I don't really know what age I am. I

00:24:15.500 mean, 50 is a weird number to me because it doesn't seem like what 50 probably used to be.

00:24:23.100 You know, I mean, I don't know if that's true, but it certainly seems true. It just seems like

00:24:28.320 in an age of cultural acceleration that I don't feel a generation gap for my kids, but it's not like

00:24:35.100 I'm trying to act like them or trying to be younger than I am. But I also don't feel like embarrassed

00:24:41.260 that I am interested in new music, you know, when I was supposed to leave that behind at age 30 or

00:24:47.760 something like that. And so by the same token, like my wife and I have talked about this. We're

00:24:53.180 like, you know, it just seems like we just went, we made this, this invisible leap from going to all

00:25:00.740 of our friends' weddings to now going to their parents' funerals. Like there was this, there's just

00:25:07.380 this sort of generational thing that kind of slips in in a sneaky way that all of a sudden it's kind

00:25:12.560 of like, you know, our parents are dying and we don't really know what that means. And so for me,

00:25:17.740 like, you know, to, to, to lose my mom, it was a, it was a confrontation with mortality that I hadn't

00:25:24.200 experienced before, but it was really confounding. It was hard to put into context because I started

00:25:31.620 thinking of myself after she died. One of the things that starts happening happened with me. And I've

00:25:37.200 heard other people say this is you start to do like sort of obsessive math. Like at first it's

00:25:43.020 like, it's been exactly three days since I spoke to her. And then it's been, you know, like exactly

00:25:48.520 two weeks and one day since she was in our house and she was standing on that floorboard. That's

00:25:53.640 three floorboards away from the baseboard or whatever. And then, but then I started to do like

00:25:58.740 in my head, I would calculate like what, who she was at exactly the age I am now. So, you know,

00:26:07.140 if I was 48 years, three months and six days, I would actually like try to figure out, okay,

00:26:12.680 that was this year. And I was to say like, who was she in relation to who I am? You know

00:26:17.460 what I mean?

00:26:18.220 No. Yeah. I know exactly. Cause after I read that, like I started doing that with my parents,

00:26:22.080 my parents were both still alive, but it was like, yeah. Like what were my parents? Like

00:26:26.120 when I was there, what year was it when my parents were 36 years old?

00:26:29.680 Yeah. And when my dad turned 50, did he feel like he was becoming an old man? Cause when I

00:26:34.840 turned 50, yeah, I didn't have, it was just like, uh, I don't know, you know, like I went

00:26:41.260 for a run and I probably listened to like parquet courts or something, you know, like, and I

00:26:46.640 don't know, it just, it's, it seems different.

00:26:49.120 No. Yeah. You don't start listening to Bobby Darin or.

00:26:51.320 Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Big band music, you know?

00:26:56.160 Yeah. I mean, it is weird. And I've, I've heard that from other people too, like in the

00:27:00.340 next generation, like, you know, they'll say like, you know, I feel like I'm 18, but

00:27:05.020 then when I look in the mirror, I see this 50 year old guy and it, it spooks me sometimes.

00:27:10.340 Yeah. Yeah. Am I allowed to wear skinny jeans? You know, can I still wear Converse?

00:27:16.360 Yeah. Is that okay?

00:27:17.280 I, um, several years ago, um, red book magazine did, uh, it was like a, like how men think

00:27:25.740 issue or something. And they reached out to a whole bunch of people, writers and celebrities

00:27:29.460 and stuff and asked them all to write little pieces. And so they contacted me and they

00:27:33.400 said, we, um, we want you to write a piece for this. Um, we want you to write a piece.

00:27:38.340 Um, why are men obsessed with being cool? And I'm like, oh, this is awesome. And then they

00:27:44.420 said, you have 200 words. No, it would be easier for me to write 20,000 words on that subject

00:27:52.480 because, um, especially now it's like, you know, like it's not out of the question for

00:28:00.100 somebody in their fifties to still be hip. But if you're trying, you're failing, you know,

00:28:05.580 like, so it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's so different. I don't know. It's a different kind of culture,

00:28:10.940 uh, generational crisis, I think.

00:28:12.840 Yeah. No, it's weird. Yeah. And I think you're right. It's, it's that acceleration of culture.

00:28:17.280 Everything seems super compressed. And I've thought about that too. Like I'm when I'm in

00:28:21.640 the car with my kids and like, they're enjoying the same music that I'm listening to, which never

00:28:27.520 would have happened with my parents. Right. Like my, my dad like had album, like Herp Albert

00:28:31.540 and the Tijuana Brass, uh, albums. Like I'm listening to them now cause I inherited them. I think it's

00:28:37.420 pretty cool. But you know, when you're 12, you're like, boy, that's pretty lame. But like my kids,

00:28:41.440 they enjoy the same, like they enjoy the killers. They enjoy bleachers. They enjoy the same music

00:28:45.760 that I like to listen to.

00:28:47.300 Yeah. Yeah. I remember like I was listening to, uh, the, one of the, to Kendrick Lamar

00:28:54.020 and they, they didn't know what to make of it. Like, you know, it was like, uh, like,

00:29:01.160 is this, you know, do we need to go find some other music now so that we're not listening

00:29:05.620 to the same music as you? No, it's like, it's interesting. I'm sure it's interesting to

00:29:10.980 me for different reasons than it's interesting to you is what I said to them. And, um, you know,

00:29:16.440 I think that helped. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. That saved Kendrick Lamar. Right. Yeah. So we have

00:29:24.020 that. Let's go back to, you know, working on this with your dad and, you know, that's a great setup

00:29:29.820 for like the stereotypical, like, you know, father, son working on this project together, you know,

00:29:35.180 like a river runs through it type thing where fatherly wisdom is imparted and et cetera, et

00:29:40.760 cetera. Did that happen? Like when you started working on this with your dad, were you hoping

00:29:44.640 that, you know, you would like gain like all the wisdom that he had while you were sanding

00:29:49.920 your own coffin? Of course I was hoping that, but I knew my dad well enough to know that that's

00:29:57.020 not what exactly what would happen. I mean, you know, anytime that I would try to get philosophical

00:30:04.360 or feelsy about it, he would make, you know, like a wry joke out of everything. But I knew

00:30:13.860 like my, um, you know, going back to my earliest memory, my, my favorite times with my dad were

00:30:19.820 always when I was with him, either in his workshop or when he was working on a project somewhere

00:30:24.400 around the house. Cause he was always doing that. He was an engineer and like a really inventive

00:30:29.200 tinkerer and really talented, you know, sort of woodworker and, and, you know, just good with all

00:30:35.180 of the things that a household needs and all that. And I always just really loved, you know, either just

00:30:40.700 being around him when he was doing it or actually helping him with that. And I, and I took on a lot

00:30:45.940 of that interest too. And so, you know, kind of our, you know, our best bonding moments for lack of a

00:30:54.560 better, better term have been in, in those kinds of projects where it wasn't like we had to talk

00:31:01.560 about, isn't this great that we're doing this together? You know, what, thanks for being my dad.

00:31:06.880 It was never like that. It was just like, you know, we just both enjoyed doing it together and,

00:31:10.600 and we both gathered by osmosis certain things from each other. So when we, so this was, you know,

00:31:18.600 pretty early on in the process, he knew that I was writing, going to be writing about this.

00:31:24.240 And in fact, I'd actively, sometimes as we were working in the Dusty workshop, I'd go over to

00:31:30.300 my notebook and write something down and he'd be aware of it, you know? So sometimes he'd, I'd,

00:31:36.300 you know, ask him to say something again, because I wanted to make sure I wrote it down.

00:31:40.200 And so he'd just kind of chuckle and he's, you know, just nod and, you know, it's basically just

00:31:45.540 went along with it because he was a good sport, but, you know, did I do it specifically to get some

00:31:53.240 new experience from him? You know, I had some, you know, again, I had some hope that there would

00:31:59.200 be something special that would come from it, but really just what came from it was I created some

00:32:05.320 new extra time with him that we got to spend together solely the two of us. And then upon his

00:32:14.380 death, I immediately was so thankful for that. Cause at times I was like, I hope I'm not wasting his

00:32:21.800 time or I hope he's not wishing he didn't have this, you know, cause it took, it ended up taking

00:32:26.840 us four years because we kept getting busy with other things. We'd come back to it and it was

00:32:32.140 taking up room in his workshop. And I'm like, it might be in a burden to him. But as soon as he

00:32:37.040 passed, I was like, no, I'm glad we did that. And I'm sure he was too.

00:32:41.100 Yeah. I love that. How, uh, you know, you had that hope that you would get some sort of wisdom,

00:32:45.120 but like, you know, you didn't, but it was still worthwhile. I feel like a lot of young people,

00:32:50.560 like, I don't know, parents that are like in their thirties, forties, like they have a high,

00:32:54.540 like they put high expectations on themselves on like what it means to be a dad. And like,

00:32:58.600 they should always be like imparting this, you know, important wisdom to their kids at any moment.

00:33:04.700 But I remember when growing up, like my dad wasn't like that. He wasn't, he wasn't like the

00:33:09.460 talkative type. Right. But the best memories I had of him, you know, is when my dad was a game warden

00:33:15.380 and sometimes he would take me out with him patrolling, uh, from, you know, checking duck

00:33:19.580 hunters. And that was just awesome. Cause I got to get up at four o'clock in the morning. I was in a

00:33:24.100 truck with him for hours and we didn't really talk. Uh, and I just, but it was great. I loved it.

00:33:30.120 And that's for me, that was sufficient. Um, and sometimes I've, I've, I've tried to remember

00:33:34.100 that with my own kids, like I don't need to like always be lecturing them and partying,

00:33:38.940 hoping to like stuff their heads with as much knowledge and just being there is, is enough.

00:33:43.040 Yeah. And you know, as my kids got older, cause I, I, I was the same way. I mean, I was definitely

00:33:47.900 more emotive in the household than my dad ever was. Like I refer into the, in the book jokingly

00:33:53.420 to myself as the emo mascot of the homestead, but you know, you wonder like, did I say enough

00:33:59.800 or did I give them enough examples? And my kids are, you know, college age now and I see

00:34:06.300 enough of how they're living their lives now to think, yeah, they were probably getting what

00:34:12.020 I was hoping or some of what I was hoping they would get, but, but yeah, kind of to

00:34:16.780 that, you know, sort of like that overt imparting of wisdom or, or, or bonding or whatever.

00:34:23.100 There's a unexpectedly funny moment that happened that, that I write about in the book, you know,

00:34:29.420 the movie boyhood, the Richard Linklater movie. Um, when that came out, I got the DVD and I was

00:34:36.600 like, my dad always came over on Sunday for dinner. So I'm like, dad, why don't you come

00:34:40.580 over early in the afternoon and you and my son, Evan, who was exactly the same age as the boy in

00:34:46.780 the movie. And I will watch this movie together. And so we sat down on the couch and I was all like,

00:34:53.740 I'm like, this is going to be great. It's going to be three generations of men watching this movie

00:34:58.280 about two generations of, of, of father and son, you know, sort of aging in real time before us on

00:35:03.760 age. It's going to be like this really meta emotional experience. And like 10 minutes into

00:35:09.420 the movie, I'm sitting in the middle and they're both kind of starting to fidget and like, and this

00:35:14.880 is like a three hour movie. So it was like this long afternoon of me hoping for something meaningful

00:35:22.200 to happen. And both of them kind of like, okay, how's this, is this going to go over? Like in the

00:35:27.600 movie, you see that the care, if you know, the way it was filmed, the characters age in real time

00:35:32.460 because Richard Linklater came back, you know, every year, I think, and, and filmed a new set

00:35:37.900 of scenes that, so this movie, you see the characters age in real time. And I felt like we watching it

00:35:42.660 were aging in real time as we were viewing the movie. So yeah, it was weird. Yeah, no. Yeah. So,

00:35:49.160 okay. I guess the insight, insight there's like, don't put so much pressure on yourself.

00:35:52.840 Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It made me think about, you know, a great example of not putting

00:35:57.540 pressure and just enjoying the moment is that, you know, field of dreams, the end where Kevin Costner

00:36:02.340 plays catch with his ghost dad, right? Just, they're just playing catch. I'm sure they didn't

00:36:07.180 talk at all. They just, they just threw the ball. Yeah. You know, as, as you might expect,

00:36:11.660 when one builds his own coffin, one knows that there will be some point when he or she will

00:36:18.800 have to lie down in it. I mean, you got to take it for a test drive, right? And so I was aware of that

00:36:24.800 as, as we were going through this, that there would be some moment when that would happen. And I'm like,

00:36:30.500 I need to time this right, because it's going to be the most meaningful moment of this whole

00:36:35.280 process. I'm going to know what it feels like to lie in my final resting place, you know, like,

00:36:39.740 so all this, like, sort of like all this pressure. And when it finally happened, it's like,

00:36:45.460 it really was like the, one of these, like, okay, let's get this over with moments, you know,

00:36:50.080 like, and I laid down and I'm like, okay, let's feel it. And it's kind of like, you know what?

00:36:56.240 Death is really not interested in me. Death has bigger fish to fry. Like, you know, you hope for

00:37:03.100 those, you hope for those like epiphanies in your life. And there are certain moments in your life

00:37:07.880 when you expect them. And the truth is, you know, life is indifferent and, you know, and, and we are

00:37:17.140 so, so small and so temporary that, you know, we're not, you know, it's, you know, we're not as big as

00:37:25.620 we think we are. And we're not as worthy of, of, you know, lightning bolts coming into our bedrooms

00:37:32.340 and, you know, sort of revealing things. It's, you know, it's, it's a much more mundane thing.

00:37:38.580 Right. And that's why, I mean, but what's crazy is like, you should be, that's what makes those

00:37:42.160 experiences when you do have them, right? When you're not expecting, like, what's makes them all the more,

00:37:46.200 I don't know, meaningful because you weren't expecting it and it sticks with you the rest of

00:37:50.760 your life. Yeah. All right. So we've, we've, we've been really heavy and philosophical. Let's

00:37:57.840 get to the brass tacks of building a coffin. Cause reading this, I learned a lot about coffins that I

00:38:03.680 didn't know about. Like, for example, there are dimensions coffins have to be in order for you to

00:38:10.220 get it in the ground. And if you go too big, then like, you're gonna have to spend thousands of

00:38:14.880 dollars extra to accommodate that. So like, what are the dimensions of a coffin? Was it,

00:38:19.440 was the coffin smaller than you thought it was going to be?

00:38:23.800 It could have been. We, we kind of like, it started to expand without our realization. As,

00:38:32.020 as good an engineer and designer as my dad was, yeah, we knew the dimensions. I can't tell you

00:38:37.640 offhand what they are, but they're, they're in the book. I consulted with a, with a funeral director

00:38:42.680 as we were working on this. And he told me what the standard dimensions are. And when you're talking

00:38:48.260 about like a traditional burial situation, the dimensions are limited to the size of the vault

00:38:55.620 that the concrete or that, that the casket has to go in. It's usually concrete or metal. And the

00:39:01.480 reason for the vault is so there won't be a sinkhole where the grave is, you know, it'll, it'll keep it

00:39:06.840 from, you know, just collapsing after the, after the organic materials break down, which is what

00:39:13.640 they really should do. But yeah. So if it, so if it exceeds the dimensions of a standard vault,

00:39:18.700 then you have to either buy a really expensive, like megavolt or something or accommodate it in

00:39:24.400 some other way. And so anyway, because we kept coming up with other ideas to expand on the design

00:39:30.840 of this thing, we somehow accidentally made it bigger than the standard vault. And I don't want to give

00:39:36.000 away too much of the drama of this situation, but we had to figure out a way to deal with that

00:39:41.720 situation. So yeah, there were some, uh, practical considerations definitely that, that went into

00:39:47.640 the design. Right. And yeah, coffins are expensive and they get really a lot. They can get really

00:39:52.480 elaborate. Like there's like, I think there's coffins that you can buy as like, you know, your sports

00:39:56.540 team and blazoned on it. Yeah. That was, you know, the weirdest thing was when I was

00:40:02.280 like researching this and just kind of like free form, you know, just sort of, um, doing some Google

00:40:07.800 research early on, I was just like struck by how immediately available a casket is. Cause it's

00:40:15.500 something you never think about or until suddenly you have to think about it, but you can get, you know,

00:40:22.020 like you can get a casket from Amazon with overnight shipping, you know, like, and, and you can buy one

00:40:27.660 from overstocking, you can buy them from Walmart, eBay has listings, which was weird. Cause like the

00:40:33.240 eBay listings all use like sort of the standard eBay language. So it's like unisex casket, uh,

00:40:42.600 you know, like one size and, you know, like, and, you know, like overnight shipping available. And, but

00:40:49.600 then it would always say new and I'd be like new, like as opposed to used. So yeah. So that was weird.

00:40:58.560 But the weirdest was, yeah. Then all these novelty caskets and I discovered there's a company that

00:41:03.980 makes a base bacon casket and it's, it's, it's a steel casket, but it's encased in bacon and it has

00:41:11.860 these options. Like you can get a bacon air freshener for the inside and the ad, the marketing company said

00:41:17.980 for when you get that buried underground, not so fresh feeling. So yeah. Some really weird

00:41:24.160 ones, but you know, if you can make people laugh at your funeral, that's, that's a good thing.

00:41:30.480 Yeah. It's very Egyptian. When I read that, it was like, that's like something like an Egyptian

00:41:34.480 king would do. Like I'm going to be buried with bacon so that I can eat bacon on my journey to the

00:41:39.060 cool Egyptian king. Right. Cool. A cool Egyptian king. And there's also, you can just get a cardboard

00:41:44.200 box now and be buried in it. And I guess it's earth, you know, green or eco-friendly.

00:41:50.220 Yeah. I got really interested. Green burial is really, really growing. And I got really

00:41:54.440 interested in that. You know, my, my Sicilian Catholic wife will never probably go for that 1.00

00:42:00.160 because we have to be buried in, you know, near our family members because somehow we'll be,

00:42:04.160 you know, having parties there in the cemetery. But I really would, you know, love the idea of being

00:42:11.500 buried in one of these organic cemeteries where you basically, I mean, the ones that I am familiar

00:42:17.040 with, um, you put into the ground with the minimum of, you know, covering, you can just be

00:42:23.920 wrapped in cotton. Everything has to be biodegradable. Um, you could put a marker there, but it can't be

00:42:30.780 a polished stone. They want it to be a natural stone. And they like that because it provides habitat

00:42:36.220 for like, you know, salamanders and things. And there's something about that that's, that strikes

00:42:42.100 me as, you know, the way maybe we should be doing things. You know, I'm Catholic and, and so I know

00:42:49.080 what my traditions are, but, um, even like cremation was not a Catholic thing until very recently. And now

00:42:56.680 it's a huge growing trend. And, you know, there's something about just practical about the organic

00:43:04.380 possibilities of burial, but I think also, you know, sort of spiritual about it. Like,

00:43:10.620 you know, shouldn't I be a creating as little disruption and damage to the environment when

00:43:18.760 I'm no longer part of it and be, you know, sort of like recognizing that I'm not, you know,

00:43:24.540 what's the point of preserving the box that I'm buried in with a, with a concrete vault when,

00:43:31.820 you know, I'm going to be decomposed in a week.

00:43:35.180 Right. Dust thou art, none to dust shalt thou return.

00:43:38.380 Yeah.

00:43:39.040 Right.

00:43:39.920 Yeah.

00:43:41.100 Within a big metal box.

00:43:43.200 Within a big metal box.

00:43:44.800 Yeah.

00:43:45.180 You're kind of like, what is it? I wonder what decomposing is like. Is it, is, is he turning

00:43:49.660 to dust or is it sort of like you leak? But that's another thing people don't know about

00:43:53.220 coffins. Like you have to put in pans in the coffin because bodies leak, uh, whenever you're

00:44:00.840 buried. Yeah. One of the hilarious things when my dad and I were going through this,

00:44:05.360 like we'd go to the, to the hardware store, the lumber yard, and he'd be like, you know,

00:44:10.380 we'd be picking materials and he'd be like, well, I'd really like to do like cedar or redwood

00:44:14.440 because they're, they're less resistant to rot. And I'm like, dad, I'm not resistant to rot. So

00:44:21.480 like, what's the point? But he, you know, he's like very practical, but you know, I'd point these

00:44:26.980 things out and then he'd laugh, but you know, it was, yeah.

00:44:30.420 So coffins are big. Um, and so you're not dead yet. So you're not using it. So like,

00:44:36.240 where, what are you doing with your, your coffin right now?

00:44:39.120 Yeah. So like, I feel like I'm giving away all the spoilers. So anybody listening, you really

00:44:44.220 don't need to buy the book. Um, cause yeah, I'm telling you all the good stuff. So, um, no. So

00:44:50.100 at one point when we were, when we were doing this, you know, well, first of all, like there was

00:44:55.560 always this question between me and my wife, like, where are we going to store this thing?

00:44:59.660 And I would always just sort of bluff and say, oh, don't worry. I've got a plan, which, you know,

00:45:04.020 most men, when they say I have a plan, mean I've got no plan. So, um, but at one point we had to

00:45:11.500 stand it up on end in my dad's workshop to make some room for something. And when I looked at it,

00:45:16.740 I'm like, wow, dad, you know what, that would make like a really cool, nice bookcase. And so

00:45:24.440 that like, sort of like idea took hold. And so the, um, so I create, I made a set of

00:45:32.700 eventually removable shelves that insert into the standing up on end rectangular, um, piece of

00:45:39.140 furniture. And, um, and it's, it's sort of an elegant solution. Um, the only problem is that

00:45:46.440 um, when I started to figure out where in our house, this thing would fit, um, the only place

00:45:54.840 that it would work based on the way, the way the house is laid out and where furniture already is

00:45:58.940 and so forth is, um, on the second floor of our house where the bedrooms are, there's a big open

00:46:03.560 central hallway. And so, um, there was a perfect spot for it in that hallway. The only problem is

00:46:10.360 that when my wife and I get up in the morning, the first thing we see when we open our bedroom door

00:46:14.900 is the casket in which I will be buried someday, which is, um, would seem on the surface to be

00:46:21.560 kind of a morbid thing. But when I think about it, um, you know, if you wake up in the morning

00:46:28.380 and the first thing you realize is that I will die someday, it sort of puts you on your game for the

00:46:34.260 day. It's kind of like, yep, let's get coffee and get busy. You know? So, um, yeah. So the other

00:46:41.400 thing is, you know, when, um, when the book launch happened, it was at, uh, at the, at Akron's main

00:46:47.580 library has an auditorium and that's where the book launch event took place. And the library staff

00:46:53.360 made these, they reserved the first two rows of seats for my family and some, some guests. And

00:46:59.440 they made these, these cards, these laminated cards that had like my, my author headshot and it said,

00:47:06.020 reserved for our special guest. And my wife brought one of those home and she has attached it to the

00:47:11.120 side of the coffin. So it's my picture reserved for our special guest on the side of my, of my

00:47:18.100 casket.

00:47:19.840 Well, yeah, David, this is been a good conversation. Is there anywhere people can go to learn more about

00:47:24.900 your work?

00:47:26.040 Yeah, I have a website. It's davidgiffles.com.

00:47:29.260 Fantastic. Well, David Giffles, thanks for coming on. It's been a good conversation.

00:47:32.200 Oh, thanks so much for having me. This was a great conversation.

00:47:34.500 My guest, it was David Giffles. He's the author of the book, Furnishing Eternity. It's available

00:47:38.500 on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find out more information about his work at

00:47:42.200 davidgiffles.com. Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash giffles, where you find links to

00:47:48.200 resources, where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:47:50.240 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and

00:48:06.440 advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And if you enjoy the

00:48:10.320 show, you've got something out of it, I'd appreciate it if you give us a review on iTunes

00:48:13.140 or Stitcher. It helps out a lot. And if you've done that already, thank you. Please consider sharing the

00:48:17.160 show with a friend or family member who you think would get something out of it. As always,

00:48:20.700 thank you for your continued support. And until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay

00:48:24.260 manly.

The Art of Manliness - September 24, 2018

#443： What Building Your Own Coffin Teaches You About Life, Death, and Meaning

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