#444： How to Use the Procrastination Equation to Start Getting Things Done
Episode Stats
Summary
Procrastination can be a big stumbling block to our success in life. In his new book, "The Procrastination Equation," Dr. Pierce Steele explains why and how to stop putting things off and start getting stuff done.
Transcript
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This episode of the Art of Manliness podcast is brought to you by New Mexico Tourism.
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I've got family roots in New Mexico that goes back to the 1600s on my dad's side of the family.
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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Procrastination can be a big stumbling block to our success in life.
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You're a student and you put off studying at the last minute.
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If you wait to start saving for retirement until you're in your 40s,
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you lose out on the power of compound interest.
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We know that we need to do certain things sooner rather than later, but we don't.
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And in his work and in his book, The Procrastination Equation,
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he's distilled all the research out there on procrastination into a kind of formula
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Pierce explains why his approach to procrastination is different from that taken by many psychologists
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and what those other psychologists often get wrong about its root causes.
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He then digs into the different components of why we procrastinate,
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as well as actionable advice on how you can mitigate these issues and start getting more stuff done.
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After the show's over, make sure to check out our show notes at aom.is
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So you published a book a few years ago called The Procrastination Equation,
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How to Stop Putting Things Off and Start Getting Stuff Done.
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In fact, you are a professor, you've got a PhD, and you decided to study procrastination.
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Were you like a chronic procrastinator your entire life?
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You decided, I'm going to get a handle on this by getting a PhD?
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Yeah, yeah, I feel so exposed right now by you.
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I had enough going on, but barely just to get into a kind of a PhD program.
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And I had an opportunity to study something that was near and dear to my heart.
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Because like, unlike a lot of other people who've talked about procrastination,
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that tend to get Freudian about it, you get a little more, I don't know what the right word is, concrete.
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Well, I could, like, I mean, there's a lot to kind of unpack here.
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One of the best, like, actually gathering the raw data was I had a wired classroom.
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You know those massive open online courses that exist nowadays?
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So it was only about 200 students, but each piece was delivered by a computer.
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Now, actually back then we had to go to a computer lab, but there was lots of labs around the university.
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Well, this was well known for being a hotbed of procrastination.
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You know, and you could actually, though, and in a very detailed way, determine when people actually did the work,
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So some people, you know, were slow and steady, but most people did it later.
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And some did, I think, about 75% of the course in the last week.
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So we got a lot of good information from that, because it's kind of hard to measure procrastination over any kind of really meaningful time.
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Sure, you can bring somebody into a room and, you know, say you have to do this in an hour or half an hour and then see when they do it.
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But really, the big ones, you want to see how people act over several months.
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And the other technique that I'm really kind of known for is something called meta-analysis, which is essentially the study of studies.
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So I'm really good at unpacking the component parts of other people's research and then reassembling them into a coherent whole.
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And part of that actually eventually led to a single theory and an equation.
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And there's actually a procrastination equation to explain why people do things when they do and why they put stuff off.
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Well, I think that's interesting, because we've had other people, psychologists who've studied procrastination, that's their expertise, and they tend to take an approach where it's not an equation, right?
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It's like, well, you procrastinate because you're a perfectionist, or you're scared, or, you know, like I said, it's kind of Freudian.
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But like, you kind of look at it like, no, it's like, it's not that.
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Well, the problem with that one is that you actually go and study people who are perfectionists and see how well they're associated with, you know, procrastination.
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You find actually perfectionists, this typical one, procrastinating just a little bit less, not more.
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And you say, well, that can't be if this is a major cause, right?
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So what you find is, is that people who are perfectionists and they procrastinate, well, they're much more likely to seek clinical help.
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So these clinicians are seeing a lot of perfectionists, procrastinators.
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But that is, that's, that's just simply selection bias.
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So they're based on their own personal experience.
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And also, you know, people are saying, oh yeah, you know, when my perfectionist comes around, I put things off.
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But there's a lot of reasons people put things off.
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I mean, well, actually the most popular one isn't, it has anything to do with perfectionism.
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It's, it's, it's wanting to be with your friends and socialize.
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And, you know, and other weird things, I mean, 95% of the world procrastinates.
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That means like, is there anyone not a perfectionist?
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It's, it's, they had certain type of intellectual tools and mindsets available to them and they use them.
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You know, when you have a hammer, you know, everything becomes a nail.
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Okay, well, so let's talk about what you've found.
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Well, before we get into like, why we procrastinate.
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Let's talk about, you know, why procrastination is bad.
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And like, why people go see psychologists and shrinks to be like, I'm a procrastinator.
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Like how, how does procrastination affect our quality of life on an individual level?
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Yeah, I got to actually to develop what's considered the definitive definition of that
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And there's been a lot of different attempts over it over the years, but they pretty much
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There's got to be some type of negative aspect.
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It's putting off despite expecting to be worse off.
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So that it's kind of, you know, other people call it the irrational delay.
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I mean, you wouldn't say I'm planning to go on a trip today on a lake and there's a gigantic
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It's a delay that where you think you should do it now by your standards.
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So you think I should do this now, but you don't.
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You look inside your heart and the motivation just isn't there.
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And sometimes after that, we kind of go in, then it can get a little Freudian where we
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kind of do defensive mechanisms where people then justify the delay after the fact.
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First, they decide the delay and then they try and find reasons after already made the
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decision to retroactively justify that decision.
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And some people are pretty good at it, pretty good at basically covering their tracks.
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So if you think generally, no, no, no, I should do this later.
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You may, might playfully call that procrastination, but it's not.
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You would actually have to think to yourself, I should be doing that now.
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And you give a lot of examples of where this can have, you know, pretty dire consequences
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for people professionally with their finances, in their relationships with like their family
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Speaking of PhDs, like you talk about people who pretty much do everything they need to
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do to graduate with a PhD, but they don't write their dissertation.
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Yeah, the, the ABDs, the all but dissertation, which is BAD, of course.
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And it's, that's, that's a common example for where I'm from.
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So of course it's going to come to mind, but it's, you can think of anything from your
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own life where, gee, if I didn't do that now, or if I don't attend to it now or soon, I'm
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Well, there's people who procrastinate that off beyond that to anything.
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I mean, one of the, one of the, the key examples is, um, you know, health and let's say, um,
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A, somebody is doing a little self exam, a woman's doing a little self-examination.
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She should go to the doctor about as soon as possible, but that, you know, she's, she's
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So she kind of, you know, she said, you know, that's probably nothing.
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And there are lots and lots of examples of this.
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I mean, the, the, another one of that is super common is a colonoscopies.
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And if you don't, you're kind of risking, um, you're risking cancer.
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And as I say, you know, people would rather risk dying of cancer later than have the certainty
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And, you know, that's just, you know, I killed my, um, actually that, in truth, I did.
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She, she didn't get it done and she got the cancer and she died.
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Of course, no, we kind of, at the low end, it's kind of funny.
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It's like the, uh, somebody still has their Christmas lights and it's coming up to April,
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That's, you know, there's nothing, well, just a few more months and I'll be halfway back
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So we can, we, we procrastinate the small things and we have small costs for it and we
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can procrastinate the big things and have big costs.
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So, you know, dealing with problems in your marriage, dealing with health, dealing with
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your finances and anything you thought you should have done now and put up later.
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That's basically only the cost of procrastination is only defined by that task that you decide
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But we are so set in our way where our minds evolved that we really have a tremendous time
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It's just, it's, it's built into our DNA and our brain's architecture.
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So we have to kind of, I say, you know, to defeat procrastination, you have to act and not
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We have to act in a way that our brains weren't really designed to.
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Well, let's, let's dig into that because that'll allow us to flesh out this procrastination
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So what are, what is the procrastination equation?
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And this is something that, that meta-analysis study studies came out.
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I mean, it's, it's basically, you're bowling down the, uh, the literature and just seeing
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what's the residue at the end, you know, what's the, what is the final components
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And there's a lot, they studied a lot of stuff.
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You know, we studied, we even, you know, death anxiety was one of those papers on it, but
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there's three factors that came up again and again as by easily the biggest predictors
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One was your kind of, um, self-confidence or, you know, self-efficacy.
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And this is, you know, do you believe you can do the task?
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And, you know, this kind of goes back to, and this is not a new, new thing.
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It's, it's a million books, you know, and if you believe you can or believe you can't,
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But, you know, the truth is, if you believe you can't, your motivation goes down.
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That doesn't trip off the tongue as much, but you know, the facts are there.
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So self-confidence, that's a down, that's a spike downwards.
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That's one, two is value or, or the excitement of the task, the intrinsic motivation attached
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So when the things to think of things you're putting off, usually they're boring.
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And though you think, well, I should be doing them.
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And boredom is nature's way of saying it's not important.
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It's wrong in a lot of cases because there's a lot of boring things like doing your taxes,
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But it's hard to get over that natural impulse.
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So the more unpleasant or, or, or difficult a task is, the less likely we're doing it.
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And this is, there's a lot of people screw that one up a lot.
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I mean, one of the simple things that we can talk about this later is just simply
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allegating your most difficult tasks when you have the most energy and they're going
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And there's other ways of making things better, but that would, that's, that's a big contributor.
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And because we all have different things we dislike, you find you have neat things like
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some people procrastinate cleaning and some people procrastinate by cleaning.
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This one makes everything else kind of worsens often enough in itself.
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And that's, it's a, it's a personality trait called impulsiveness.
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And if you're impulsive, it means that you're spontaneous, you, you know, you're great in
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You might have a great kind of wit, but it's also means that you have tremendous difficulty
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So the future kind of is worth far, far less than the present.
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So you only really feel motivation until just before deadlines.
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And you can model all these three variables out into a kind of a procrastination equation.
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So an expectancy times value divided by a temporal dimension, time, which is made worse by impulsiveness.
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And it works really, really well for accounting almost every element and every intervention and
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every situation that we see for procrastination.
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So the procrastination equation determines our motivation to complete a task.
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And the way the factors into that motivation are expectancy times value divided by impulsiveness
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So expectancy, I guess, is the perceived chance of us getting that reward or suffering that
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You multiply that by the value, which is, I guess, the size of the reward or size of the
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So if there's a good chance that you're going to get the good consequence of the bad consequence,
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and the consequence is either really big positive or really big negative, you're going to be
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motivated, more motivated to complete the task.
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But you have to divide that by these downsides, which is impulsiveness, which is our tendency
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And you multiply impulsiveness times delay, which is the period, the time between now and
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So if you're really impulsive, get distracted easily, and the reward or the consequence is
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way out in the future, well, that's going to bring down your motivation.
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So it sounds like you can do different things to tweak your motivation.
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So you can increase expectancy, or you can increase the value of the reward, or you can focus
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on eliminating the downsides, decreasing impulsivity and decreasing delay by having more immediate
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set deadlines instead of having a way out in the future.
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So let's look at how we can tinker with the procrastination equation to, well, here's the
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Is it possible to alleviate procrastination 100%?
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Or is this something that you, at best, can just manage by tweaking a few things?
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It's too much part of us to really entirely eliminate.
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I mean, it's almost a perfect storm between who we are and what the world is.
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We've been tracking this as a society since I got some of the earliest reports from historical
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And it's just been, and then we started doing some actual proper scientific measures in like
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And just from then to now, it's been about a 500% explosion in the rate of chronic procrastination.
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Most people, if they start early, it's such an exception.
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We're kind of want to beat it back down to an occasional thing.
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If I had to say it about vices, it's my ninth, you know, or eighth.
00:20:00.380
It's not a big concern, you know, and yeah, it makes me a little human.
00:20:04.620
Sometimes it's a little annoying, but it's not life defining.
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So, yeah, we're looking for containment, looking for mitigation.
00:22:19.660
So let's talk about how we can mitigate procrastination by tinkering with the...
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Like, what can we do with those things to cause us to, you know,
00:22:36.460
more likely be motivated to start doing the thing we know we need to do?
00:22:41.460
Well, there actually, somebody, as Alex Vermeer,
00:22:47.940
So when you're actually looking at the techniques,
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techniques, there's literally, I think, about, you know, close to 20 of them.
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I mean, about 10 per side about what works effectively.
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So, you know, we can't cover them all, but there's some easy ones to do, right?
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And in fact, one of the easiest ones is that there may be not any that much trouble
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You know, maybe there's nothing wrong with your goal or what you're trying to do.
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So it's just you're trying to do it in an environment where there's a lot of temptation.
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So you can think about, well, when I procrastinate, what am I doing?
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Like, instead of increase their expectancy, lower.
00:23:41.280
Instead of making them more enjoyable, let's make them less enjoyable.
00:23:46.280
Like, for example, some people grayscale their phone.
00:23:49.440
All of a sudden, without grayscale, you know, in the gray,
00:23:51.120
it's all those apps and stuff aren't as fun anymore.
00:23:57.360
Or some people, one easy one is, and this is what you really, really should do.
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I mean, trust me, if you do this, you'll be a much happier person.
00:24:06.360
You know, laptops and everything are getting pretty cheap.
00:24:17.080
You know, have, if you're doing work in your office, have it for work.
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And if you want to take a break and goof off, fine.
00:24:27.560
The brain will eventually make associations between the location
00:24:33.540
Right now, when people do both in the same place, it gets confused.
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And it's kind of like a cat scratching the door.
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So the moment you're weak, you kind of have a moment of weakness,
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all of a sudden you're distracted and doing something else.
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That happens because you did two things in the same place.
00:24:57.980
So start off by looking at your temptations and seeing if,
00:25:07.080
You know, as I say, the cookies on the counter, nice and hot,
00:25:12.940
aren't going to be eaten quite as fast as one in the tin,
00:25:16.160
which you've put in the pantry, you know, out of sight, out of mind,
00:25:20.100
is not going to be eaten as fast as the ones, you know, right available to you,
00:25:24.840
which means if you had to go to the store and buy them,
00:25:31.440
But for actual, if you want to know, like, let's say we go through that
00:25:34.940
and we actually have a specific task that you really kind of like,
00:25:44.860
No, one is a classic, and this is one that a lot of people know,
00:25:57.220
No, we didn't cover SMART goals, but I know of SMART goals.
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It comes from about a 1982 newsletter, I think, by this guy called Greg Doran.
00:26:10.160
And he was just spitballing about, you know, and he was talking about what works for team management.
00:26:18.880
And it, you know, went all, you know, people started using it all the time and re-specifying it.
00:26:25.140
But in parallel, there was probably like about a few, I'm probably not exaggerating when I said a million hours of research done in this from the science side
00:26:36.880
into actually how to kind of create proper goals.
00:26:40.640
And the reasoning is kind of like something along the lines of reverse engineering.
00:26:45.940
So let's say, when do most people have their motivation?
00:26:58.420
So, and then we try and devise the features with it that is associated, that allows people to kind of where they get the pop.
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And so, okay, here's a naturally occurring one.
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What aspects of this, this deadline that, that can we create on our own so that we can actually have motivation when it's convenient to us?
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Because did you, if you didn't create that deadline yourself, that means somebody else determined when your motivation happened.
00:27:31.000
So if you can create artificial ones that have the same properties, you can create them when you want and have your motivation when you want.
00:27:37.600
I say most people, their motivation, you know, is occurring like a fire hose just before it's due.
00:27:45.880
It's coming out like, you know, and, but like an eyedropper earlier on when it's convenient.
00:27:50.680
And really what they want is they want to be able just to turn on a tap and get a nice tall glass of motivation, right?
00:28:00.120
But there's, it doesn't seem to be under the control.
00:28:03.540
And so they've found that there's basically three, maybe four, if you want it, key features of it.
00:28:11.240
And one was, this is controlling the expectancy.
00:28:14.720
I'm circling around now and answering that, is to make it challenging.
00:28:18.980
So you can cut a big project into smaller pieces.
00:28:23.060
And again, you know, that old adage about, you know, how you eat an elephant one bite at a time.
00:28:28.200
You can make a project into smaller and manageable and doable pieces.
00:28:33.780
But they say, you know, you don't want to make it too small.
00:28:36.020
You want to make it somewhat so there's a little bit of, you know, you know, there's something on the table.
00:28:42.080
So you want to make it challenging, but not so challenging that you don't think you can do it.
00:28:51.180
The second one, and this is where most people fall down and don't do it correctly.
00:28:59.100
Specific is basically how the limbic system gets communicated to.
00:29:02.920
And that's your seat of your emotions is where the amygdala is.
00:29:05.420
And that's where you have your strong kind of feelings.
00:29:09.520
So you're trying to create plans with your prefrontal cortex, but they get enacted by the limbic system.
00:29:15.840
Limbic system doesn't like anything that's abstract.
00:29:27.860
So you have to, if you're saying like, I'm going to exercise this weekend.
00:29:32.780
If you're going to say, I'm going to exercise this Saturday morning, immediately after breakfast,
00:29:40.000
I'm going to pick up my bag, my favorite fare of runners.
00:29:45.300
I'm going to make it to this 8.30 class, which means I'm going to leave at 8.10.
00:29:50.720
And I'm going to do the class and then come home.
00:29:56.520
And do you see that level of specificity with a later one?
00:29:59.640
That's what you need to have in order to really activate it.
00:30:12.200
Some people even have to pop, motivationally pop a kind of a particularly resistant or sticky task.
00:30:19.640
You do a 10-minute goal just to kind of get it going.
00:30:22.540
But you don't want to live a life in a series of 10-minute goals.
00:30:41.820
Because then you have to be soon not doing something.
00:30:46.380
If you want to have it like, I'm going to approach goals like, I'm eating more salads.
00:31:00.260
It's what you want to paper over that activity you're avoiding with is a much better way of doing it.
00:31:06.700
You need to, they say they talk about needing replacement behavior.
00:31:12.380
So the thing is, we actually have all the science pretty much down.
00:31:17.240
There's very little new in the motivational field.
00:31:21.480
And the ones we've got work really, really well.
00:31:27.720
I often thought that, you know, it should be actually part of a high school curriculum.
00:31:34.220
Instead of having, complaining about kids about, well, they're not getting things done on time.
00:31:41.400
We could actually give this and, you know, a dozen other effective techniques.
00:31:47.540
And get them trained up with a little bit of help.
00:31:51.140
But, you know, right now, you know, people have to kind of, you know,
00:31:53.860
if they're lucky enough, you know, they'll get some good resources on it.
00:31:58.280
Again, I like my book, but I'm not the only, I'm not the only person out there.
00:32:05.560
But then you still have to figure it out yourself and how to apply it.
00:32:08.700
So you might have the right plan, but you don't implement it perfectly because you're doing it yourself for the first time.
00:32:16.140
And then you get frustrated and you might walk away.
00:32:23.220
So just to recap, you want to set very specific goals because that fires up our limbic system.
00:32:29.060
And our limbic system is what gets our executive function, executive control going.
00:32:36.680
Oh, I tried to get this to a mnemonic, like SMART goals, because SMART goals were so cool.
00:32:45.340
So, like, how can I get this to, and the best I could do was the CSI approach.
00:32:54.080
So, but instead, this is challenging, specific, immediate approach goals.
00:33:02.840
So we've been talking a lot of tactics to increase the expectancy of achieving the goal, the value, by making it more immediate, specific, all those things.
00:33:15.120
But then the other component to the equation is impulsivity, right?
00:33:20.580
And as you said, that's, we're wired to be impulsive.
00:33:25.680
And so some of the tactics you talked about is put those temptations that cause you to be impulsive, like get them out of your mind.
00:33:33.040
Just basically get them out of your environment as much as you can.
00:33:36.060
I mean, what about, what about people who are like, as you said, there's like a genetic component to impulsivity.
00:33:46.960
Like you have to be like not impulsive in the front end to get a handle on your impulsivity that you know you'll experience when the moment arises.
00:33:57.080
I would say there's, there's some things that are actually are effective really quick.
00:34:02.080
So we recommend starting that just so you can get the quick wins and that'll, you know, feel better.
00:34:09.300
There are like a, a, especially impulsivity, there's like about seven different techniques.
00:34:15.820
But, and, you know, even down to making things less obvious.
00:34:21.900
I mean, when we have a lot of ones that people, for example, that really kind of hits their productivity is checking email too much.
00:34:30.980
If you actually just stop checking email and get more into flow states, and that's where people say they do the best work is we're actually when they're concentrating on one thing at a time.
00:34:40.840
And that's when we, we verified it and said, yeah, they're definitely correct about that.
00:34:46.020
But then you go check your email and you're checking your email and people, you're not really choosing to actually.
00:34:51.860
What you're doing, responding to us, to the ding, like, you know, like almost a Pavlovian response.
00:34:57.180
So the ding goes, you check your email, you'd look at it, you're getting a variable reinforcement schedule.
00:35:02.200
Sometimes there's something interesting there, most of the time there isn't.
00:35:06.340
And so, you know, you go through and you do this again and again.
00:35:10.600
And you actually get a little drip of dopamine as you're just about to check your email.
00:35:19.240
But that little, could it be actually is rewarding itself.
00:35:22.260
So the thing is, simple thing is go and turn off your, your, those dings, the, those cues, those visual and auditory markers.
00:35:36.440
And some people say, well, there, you just gained two months a year.
00:35:45.520
But if this principle was there, was it, if you have temptations and you make them, you need to almost kind of reverse engineering that CSI approach, right?
00:35:56.780
So if you can make them from obvious, you know, specific to something a little more abstract to immediate to something delayed, their motor, their power goes down.
00:36:07.900
And there's a variety of ways of kind of, again, doing this.
00:36:12.340
The, the biggest, the ultimate goal is for all these techniques is not to use them every day.
00:36:20.100
You're kind of like, almost like physiotherapy.
00:36:22.040
If you got into a car accident, say your muscle's atrophied and you're just like, okay, well, go and walk.
00:36:27.060
So I can't, you know, I said, I need, yeah, you're right.
00:36:29.640
You can't, you need a little bit of apparatus around you to regain your strength.
00:36:35.520
But eventually you don't want to have those even bars around and you want to be able to walk on your own.
00:36:43.560
So a lot of these techniques are exactly that because ultimately where you want to get to is habit.
00:36:48.580
So if you have a workout routine and you're doing it again and again and you're making it really, really predictable, eventually just do it without even thinking about it.
00:37:00.620
If you have a workout routine where it's, oh, what, what day is it going to be this week?
00:37:06.040
And that makes it motivationally difficult, you know?
00:37:10.460
And so, you know, like if you say I want to go home and pick up my bag before going to the gym.
00:37:15.580
Well, once you get home, there's so much temptation.
00:37:17.700
I'll just take five minutes in front of the TV, somebody says.
00:37:23.580
If you left in your car and drove to the gym first, maybe just have like a, you know, a granola bar or something like that.
00:37:35.340
It's respecting that we are vulnerable to this impulsive action is essentially the first step.
00:37:43.280
That you saying, if I go home, I know enough about myself that I am going to probably give in.
00:37:55.660
And it's people who actually acknowledge they are, have these motivational weaknesses that tend to do better.
00:38:02.820
People pretend they don't, that they're kind of do are of robotic perfection, put themselves in a situation which makes them vulnerable.
00:38:11.280
So two tactics that I've used successfully in my own life that you talk about in the book.
00:38:15.240
One is to increase expectancy or the perceived chance of you accomplishing that big task is by breaking it down to smaller components.
00:38:22.260
So you mentioned earlier, you know, working just in 10 minute increments.
00:38:26.320
I've done that whenever I've been putting off an article I've been writing or my taxes or some other undesirable task.
00:38:31.960
I just tell myself, I'm going to work on this for 10 to 15 minutes.
00:38:35.480
What ends up usually happening is it sort of primes the pump.
00:38:39.820
But even if I don't, like, you know, I don't want to work on it anymore.
00:38:42.660
It's like, well, I made 10 minutes of progress.
00:38:45.820
The other one is using that pre-commitment, which this is battling impulsivity and delay.
00:38:51.260
So I've used app, the website Stick to, you know, put money on the line.
00:38:55.780
I say, if I don't accomplish this task by a certain date, I've got to pay, you know, cough up, you know, some money.
00:39:02.860
And you have to make it sort of significant so it hurts.
00:39:05.020
And you can even double the hurting, the pain of it by not accomplishing the task by making the money go to an organization that contradicts some sort of core belief of yours.
00:39:16.220
So if you're a Republican, you can have the money go to a Democratic Party.
00:39:19.640
The Democratic Party, if you don't complete the task, if you're an environmentalist, you can have it go to some, you know, organization that supports oil drilling or something like that.
00:39:27.620
So those two have been really helpful for me that I've used successfully.
00:39:35.720
Now it's just finding the right one for you and making sure you implement it properly.
00:39:39.840
Is there someplace people can go to like find, I mean, do you have like a website where you've like laid out your research and some of these tactics?
00:39:52.300
Well, Pierce Steele, this has been a great conversation.
00:40:00.000
He's the author of the book, The Procrastination Equation.
00:40:02.840
It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.
00:40:05.340
You can find out more information about his work at his website, Procrastinus.
00:40:13.720
Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash procrastination equation.
00:40:18.080
We can find links to resources, including that flowchart Dr. Steele mentioned in the podcast about different ways to hack the procrastination equation.
00:40:25.460
We'll have a link there as well as other links where you can delve deeper into this topic.
00:40:28.540
Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:40:44.000
For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com.
00:40:48.520
And if you enjoy the show, you've gotten something out of it, I'd appreciate it if you take one minute to give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher.
00:40:56.240
Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you think gets something out of it.
00:41:00.000
As always, thank you for your continued support.
00:41:01.780
And until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.