The Art of Manliness - #448： Your Son Isn't Lazy — How to Empower Boys to Succeed

00:00:00.000 This episode of the Art of Manly's podcast is brought to you by Huckberry. Huckberry is my

00:00:03.540 favorite place to shop online. Everything from clothing, they got stuff for your everyday carry,

00:00:08.120 camping gear, things for your house like furniture and even like art. You name it,

00:00:12.000 they've got it and they handpick all this stuff, the feature in their store. Go check it out at

00:00:16.060 huckberry.com. And if you want to see some of the things I've purchased from Huckberry over the

00:00:19.540 years, go to aom.is slash aomhuck. And if it's your first time purchasing, use code art15 at

00:00:26.660 checkout and you'll save 15% off your first purchase. Again, aom.is slash aomhuck and then

00:00:32.000 code art15 to save 15% off your first purchase. This episode of the Art of Manly's podcast is

00:00:36.760 brought to you by New Mexico Tourism. It's time to experience New Mexico. New Mexico is one of my

00:00:41.760 favorite states in the union. I've got family that goes back generations in New Mexico. So a lot of

00:00:46.740 my favorite memories take place in New Mexico. Why do I love New Mexico? First off, the landscape's

00:00:50.560 fantastic. They've got the big open skies, the big open deserts. They got mountains, they've got

00:00:54.900 forests, they got the white sands, they got hot springs. Food, fantastic. They put green chili

00:00:59.260 on everything and it's delicious. They've got art that's amazing. And if you saw our article on

00:01:03.540 bolo ties on the Art of Manliness a couple months ago and you thought, I want to get a bolo tie.

00:01:07.240 Well, New Mexico is the place to go because they got some great ones made by some world famous

00:01:11.300 artisans. Now, if you're ready to check out and plan your next trip to New Mexico, head over to

00:01:15.600 newmexico.org slash manliness. Again, that's newmexico.org slash manliness, New Mexico, true. 0.62

00:01:24.900 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. Do you have a

00:01:40.580 teenage boy who struggles in school or do you have a younger son who you can imagine struggling

00:01:45.000 in school as he gets older? He may otherwise be a capable young man, but seems apathetic and

00:01:48.840 unmotivated to the point you think he's not excelling simply because he's lazy. My guest today says that's

00:01:54.060 the wrong conclusion to draw and one that leads to the wrong parenting approach to addressing it.

00:01:58.140 His name is Adam Price and he's the child psychologist and the author of the book,

00:02:01.080 He's Not Lazy, Empowering Your Son to Believe in Himself. Today on the show, Dr. Price argues that

00:02:05.400 the real reason many young men are unmotivated is not that they don't care about succeeding,

00:02:09.520 but that they feel too much pressure to do so and are scared of failing. We discuss why nagging and

00:02:14.080 over-parenting simply exacerbates the issue and how stepping back and giving boys more autonomy

00:02:18.440 can help them become more self-directed and find their footing. After the show's over,

00:02:22.220 check out the show notes at aom.is slash notlazy.

00:02:38.440 Dr. Adam Price, welcome to the show.

00:02:41.280 Hey, thanks for having me.

00:02:42.680 So you're a clinical psychologist who specializes in children and teenagers and because of your work,

00:02:49.180 you've encountered a lot of high school boys who, you know, they don't have serious mental

00:02:55.200 issues, no severe depression, you know, no severe learning disabilities, yet they just appear

00:03:02.260 apathetic towards school and life. So can you kind of give us a composite description of this type of

00:03:08.780 boy who no big, you know, depressive issues, but they just are unmotivated?

00:03:13.840 Yeah. And Brad, I think it's good that you're making that distinction because,

00:03:17.980 you know, depression looks different. Depression certainly has a feeling of apathy and lack of

00:03:24.680 interest in things. We have a big word for it in psychiatry, which is anhedonia, which means losing

00:03:29.680 interest, but that's different than just not having motivation for specific things. And, you know,

00:03:36.220 I would though include ADHD in this. We don't think about that as a learning disability,

00:03:41.960 but, but I think it, it could be considered that. And so actually some of my interest in this area

00:03:47.840 of motivation, the teenage boys came from working with and evaluating a lot of, a lot of boys with

00:03:53.560 ADHD. So my thoughts, my thinking in the book is for, for parents of boys who do and don't have

00:04:00.020 ADHD, but I would just throw that in there. And so what I see over and over again are boys who

00:04:05.740 on the outside look like they're impervious to academic pressure. They really look like they

00:04:12.980 don't care. They make time for video games. They may make time for sports or their friends,

00:04:18.740 but when it comes to school, they seem to find a way of flying under the radar of serious trouble.

00:04:25.880 Yet their parents are really worried about them. They're thinking about their future.

00:04:29.100 And what I've, what I've learned over time is that underneath these boys really are responding

00:04:35.800 to a pressure they feel they can't handle. And so in the face of this pressure, what they do rather

00:04:41.760 than face the competition is they decide to opt out altogether. And they say things like school really

00:04:47.620 is important. I'm not going to be one of those nerds who studies all the time. I'm going to do fine.

00:04:53.540 There's a lot of avoidance and denial that you see. The denial is everything's fine. It's going to work

00:04:58.500 out. Avoidance seems to be the go-to defense for teenage boys, which is, I just won't think about

00:05:05.400 it. I just won't deal with it. I'll do something that's more satisfying and pleasurable to me.

00:05:10.600 Right. So I was going to say, so your book, He's Not Lazy, right? Because I think when most parents

00:05:15.080 see a kid who doesn't really apply themselves at school and they're just playing videos and games

00:05:20.360 all the time, they think, well, he's such a bright kid. If you weren't so lazy, if he just applied

00:05:25.460 himself, he'd be a success. But it's not laziness, it's avoidance.

00:05:29.780 It's not laziness. But what's underneath the avoidance is fear, right? So I hear a lot from

00:05:38.740 parents, he's not working up to his potential. And by the way, this is true for girls too, but

00:05:43.420 he's not working up to his potential. And so what parents are seeing is that a young man may be bright,

00:05:52.360 as you said. But there's two things. The first thing is that academic achievement and achievement

00:05:58.720 in general is not based just upon talent, right? It's based upon perseverance. It's based upon

00:06:05.500 maturity. It's based upon organizational skills. There are a lot of things that go into doing well

00:06:10.440 in school. So just because someone's bright doesn't mean that they can nail every subject.

00:06:14.740 But the other thing is, I fear that all this talk about potential is really a wolf in sheep's

00:06:20.840 clothing. Because I think even though it sounds like it's all about growth and development,

00:06:25.180 what parents are really saying is, if my son were at the top of his class, if he worked as hard as

00:06:31.180 he could all the time, he'd be at the top of his class. And that just isn't the case. You know,

00:06:36.040 when I was a boy, my mom came home from a parent-teacher conference in fourth grade. And she said to me,

00:06:42.600 your teacher said two things about you. One is you're not paying attention enough in school. You're

00:06:46.840 talking too much to your neighbors, which really is a 1970s way of diagnosing ADHD. But then my mom

00:06:54.260 said, the teacher said, you're not working up to your potential. And I really, I thought she was

00:06:58.220 saying I wasn't smart enough, you know? And I've given this a lot of thought because I think, well,

00:07:04.120 you know, listeners, have you achieved your potential today? Have I achieved my potential? I hope not.

00:07:09.060 I hope it's something we're always working towards.

00:07:10.940 So, parents talk about laziness, yeah.

00:07:15.620 I mean, so have you, you've been doing this for, you know, 20 plus years. Have you seen an increase

00:07:20.740 of young men disengaging from school because of this pressure?

00:07:24.900 I have. I think that we are seeing it in many, many different ways, you know? And part of the reason

00:07:31.720 I wrote the book about boys is that boys often handle stress differently than girls. You know,

00:07:36.640 girls have this pressure to be perfect and to do everything without breaking a sweat, 1.00

00:07:41.560 by being beautiful, but also by meeting everybody's expectations. Boys, as I kind of

00:07:47.440 described, they experience the stress by shutting down more often. And we have seen a rise in anxiety

00:07:54.160 among teenagers, depression among teenagers, you know, a lot of behavioral problems. And a lot of

00:08:00.400 people speculate what that's about. You know, I think a lot of it has to, I mean, the world is,

00:08:04.760 you know, there's forces out there that kids are worried about in terms of their future,

00:08:09.260 like global warming. I mean, kids are thinking about this stuff. But also, college has become

00:08:14.820 a whole different ballgame than certainly when I went to college. It's more competitive,

00:08:20.800 resources are tighter, you know, it's much more expensive. So, a lot of people who might have been

00:08:25.380 able to afford it, you know, or kids could take out loans and be able to pay them back. It's just not

00:08:30.300 accessible for a lot of families. So, I think that there is a lot more fear out there. Kids are

00:08:37.020 under more pressure. Yeah. I mean, I think in the book, you describe what life was like, you know,

00:08:42.640 before this intense pressure to go to college and to be the best in college and get scholarships.

00:08:48.500 I mean, it seemed like there were more options for young men, right? You could go to college or,

00:08:53.800 you know, you go learn a trade or you go do this. So, there was, I don't know, it wasn't that,

00:08:58.940 the pressure wasn't so acute as it is today. I can tell you, I went to an Ivy League college and

00:09:05.560 if I applied today with the same, you know, SAT scores and grades, they would laugh me off the

00:09:11.300 campus. And a lot of my peers say that as well. It just is, it is different. You know, there's

00:09:16.900 economic shifts, you know, even the way the internet has changed our economy and changed the type of

00:09:21.900 jobs people can get. You know, all these things I think are factors, more temporary jobs. You know,

00:09:27.200 I think this is all part of what kids are facing either directly or indirectly. And so, the future

00:09:34.560 just doesn't feel as bright or wide open. And I thought it was an interesting comment you made.

00:09:39.960 You know, today we call boys who are unmotivated in school lazy, but there was a time when we called

00:09:44.860 them, oh, they're just a late bloomer, right? You know, I, yeah, I really appreciate you say that

00:09:50.280 because I think what's happened is that, is that yesterday's late bloomer has become today's

00:09:56.360 underachiever. And the thing is that a late bloomer, they, they still have time to catch up,

00:10:02.820 but underachiever, he's already behind. And boys do take longer to develop and boys develop at

00:10:10.040 different rates. And kids who have ADHD, they're, you know, their development, and we're talking about

00:10:14.800 a broad scope of development, but particularly, you know, the, the executive functions,

00:10:19.480 the prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that plans ahead and that does organization,

00:10:25.240 you know, that's going through a whole reorganization for teenagers, for all teenagers.

00:10:29.520 And if you have ADD, it's, you're going to be even 20% behind, you know, what we consider normal

00:10:35.100 development. So we really need space for boys to feel like they can be late bloomers because many

00:10:41.660 of them are many of them. I've seen so many kids who I saw in high school and I get feedback as they

00:10:47.500 go into college and even the workforce, they end up doing okay.

00:10:51.280 Yeah. I mean, I think I've read research where like, basically it's like the adult,

00:10:55.520 like their brain doesn't really settle. Their adult brain doesn't settle until like 25, 26.

00:11:00.740 Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

00:11:02.160 Right. And you're, and you're, and you're expected at age 18 to like pretty much have your adult life

00:11:07.620 planned out and ready.

00:11:08.580 Yeah. I think parents don't realize that. I think we, we, we forget how disorganized we were as,

00:11:15.480 as teenagers and kids. We think we were, you know, more on top of it, more focused. And,

00:11:22.020 and, you know, I think what we're trying to do is I think because parents are afraid of the future

00:11:27.920 and because they're worried about it, you know, they're trying to take full control of it by,

00:11:32.920 by offering tutoring and, and, and even therapy and, you know, all sorts of services. And, and

00:11:39.560 the problem is, you know, we can't commandeer the future. And even though, you know, the,

00:11:46.360 the natural course of development is to take your time to develop and to grow, we're trying to speed

00:11:53.140 up the process. We're trying to raise kids who at 18 are ready to go out there and make their own

00:11:58.860 decisions and, and, and be full functioning adults and it reach their potential. And it's just not

00:12:04.720 possible. So you related to, related to this just a moment ago, but let's kind of get into the details

00:12:09.860 of it. What is going on in the body and the mind of a teenage boy that exacerbates that feeling of

00:12:17.840 pressure, that, so that intense pressure where you're, the only option is to just give up.

00:12:23.220 You know, I, I, there's a lot there in that question because obviously there's a lot going on

00:12:29.420 in adolescent development. There's obviously puberty. There's obviously all of the changes

00:12:34.280 that are going on in, in a teenager's body as they mature sexually. There's the effect of hormones

00:12:40.860 on both boys and girls, which can create a lot of moodiness and a lot of, a lot of, you know,

00:12:47.080 ups and downs. We know all that. And, and, and so what I would focus on in terms of

00:12:53.220 the effect of that on academic achievement on motivation is that a lot of what happens for

00:12:59.500 teenagers is that they have a, it's almost an identity crisis, Brett, although I'm not so sure

00:13:05.600 crisis fits because it's really an opportunity. But, you know, when, when, when, when you're a child,

00:13:11.700 you look at the world through your parents' eyes and, you know, they're the ruler of the realm and all

00:13:16.760 is good in the kingdom. And kids tend to look at, they tend to follow the same sports teams as their

00:13:22.220 parents or, or, or the same political party, if they're, you know, so inclined, whatever.

00:13:26.540 But then as they become teenagers, they realize, well, you know, I got to differentiate here. I,

00:13:30.380 I got to, I want to, and have to become my own person. And so what they do is they try on different

00:13:35.660 identities and some of those identities fit and some of those identities don't fit. And one day your

00:13:41.140 teenager will come home and say, I'm a vegetarian. You know, I, I don't want to hurt animals. And

00:13:45.820 sometimes that will stick, but often it doesn't because that they're going to then try on a different

00:13:49.600 identity. What happens with underachievers though, is that they're scared of doing well in school.

00:13:57.140 Or the other thing for boys is they don't get a lot of social status by doing well in school.

00:14:01.820 Boys get social status by what they can do, how far they can throw a baseball, how far they can,

00:14:06.680 you know, run, how fast they can run on a football field. They don't get status

00:14:10.960 for doing well in school. So that's not going to become their identity. So they'll tend to push that

00:14:16.240 identity down and look for other identities to promote. That's the first part of it. The second

00:14:21.860 part of, of, of development that I think is really important is ambivalence. Teenagers don't enter,

00:14:29.520 uh, adolescence full-fledged wanting to be adults and having their own dependence. They'll tell you

00:14:35.720 that. They'll scream and yell when you give them a curfew, but there's a part of them that really wants

00:14:41.020 to stay a child and be taken care of. And so you'll see them, parents will see them acting like

00:14:45.800 babies at home, you know, expecting to be waited on, expected to be, you know, or wanting to be

00:14:51.720 taken care of in that way. And then pushing back and saying, you know, no, I can make my own decisions

00:14:56.440 on my own person. So, you know, I call adolescence the bridge of ambivalence. And so I think a lot of

00:15:02.140 this gets acted out in, in academic achievement also, because there are some kids who recognize that

00:15:07.900 if they do well in school, it means that they are growing up, that they are going to do better.

00:15:12.380 But then there's another thing that happens, which is that for the underachiever, I call it the, the,

00:15:17.200 uh, the, uh, the fight for false autonomy, because what they do is their parents are pressuring them.

00:15:23.560 You got to do better in school. You got to do better in school. So they feel like I can exert my

00:15:28.900 independence and my autonomy by making my own decisions and not do well in school. I can make

00:15:34.500 that choice for myself. So they feel like they're being autonomous when really they're, you know,

00:15:38.660 they're, they're closing off options for themselves. And then, then the more the parents push them,

00:15:43.580 the more parents get a paradoxical response is it is that the kid then uses that as leverage to

00:15:49.760 fight against the parent for their own independence. And it, it's no longer about their own conflict

00:15:56.960 about doing well in school or worrying about it. It's about their conflict with their parents.

00:16:01.140 All right. So the pressure, the increased pressure actually backfires. I think that's the typical

00:16:04.780 response from parents like, well, we're going to, we're going to lay down the law. We're going to

00:16:09.060 do these things. And then that just doesn't work. Cause it's a power struggle and then you're always

00:16:12.740 going to lose. It's a power struggle. And you know that, yeah, I don't know if you, uh, have teenagers

00:16:18.800 or you just remember being a teenager, but power struggle is like the, uh, epitome of, of being a

00:16:23.900 teenager. Cause it's a battle of will and they're fighting for their autonomy and they'll usually win

00:16:29.640 because they don't have anything to lose. Right. They don't care necessarily if they're

00:16:35.120 disrespectful or swear or whatever. And you do, and you're not going to, hopefully a parent won't

00:16:39.440 lose it. So, you know, the way out of that is always to offer a teenager a choice. Sometimes

00:16:44.160 one of the, one of the choices is not something they want to do. Like you can, you know, you can

00:16:49.300 clean up your room and then go out with your friends or you can not clean up your room and stay

00:16:52.460 home. It's your choice. But I want to go back to something that you brought up earlier that I think

00:16:56.300 is really important. And that's this concept of laziness. Cause I said briefly that underneath

00:17:01.320 laziness is fear underneath this sense of apathy is really self doubt, really a question as, as we

00:17:08.580 were talking about before, about whether a young man feels like they can handle the pressure.

00:17:14.100 And so calling a kid lazy only serves to alienate them more to make them, you know, you're calling

00:17:20.360 them a name and they just feel worse about themselves and then angrier at you. So that's something

00:17:25.900 else that often backfires. And I don't really believe in laziness. I believe that there are

00:17:30.480 things that get in the way, such as what we're, what we're touching on today.

00:17:34.340 Yeah. I mean, these kids sometimes, oftentimes aren't lazy when they find something to interest

00:17:38.160 them, right? They'll apply themselves heavily to sports, maybe video games, or maybe some other

00:17:43.720 hobby that they, they enjoy music could be anything. And they're, they're not lazy there.

00:17:48.620 That goes back to your initial point about depression, right? There, they, they, there are certain

00:17:54.260 things that they find pleasure in and that they're motivated for not in every, not in every kid. And

00:17:59.720 you know, it's also funny because I hear parents say a lot, you know, I want my, I want my teenager

00:18:04.340 or even my child to find a passion. A neighbor of mine once came up to me and said, you know,

00:18:09.640 should I push my daughter who was eight years old at swimming? And I said, I don't know, maybe if,

00:18:14.520 you know, if she, if she wants to, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't, you know, throw her into the pool. 0.98

00:18:19.280 And he said, but don't I have a responsibility because she's talented. And I thought, Ooh,

00:18:24.220 that's, that's not necessarily going to go in the right direction because kids don't always have a

00:18:28.800 passion. You know, sometimes they don't develop it until they're older. The flip side of that though,

00:18:33.100 is I've also seen kids who have an incredible passion and have developed a business for themselves.

00:18:38.460 One young man I worked with was failing out of school, but making all this money doing it,

00:18:43.020 being a DJ. And he had a whole film production company. I really wasn't like, he needed to graduate

00:18:48.540 from college, but I wasn't too worried about him being successful because a lot of the people that,

00:18:54.640 you know, become superstars in certain fields, they started when they were young. So, you know,

00:18:59.880 there's always a balance. Yeah. I mean, I think that's a good point of how parenting has changed

00:19:04.240 because you mentioned the kid who, you know, in high school started the successful DJ company.

00:19:08.900 I would say maybe 70 years ago, if that was the case, you know, and he dropped out of high school,

00:19:14.220 the parents would be like, well, okay, that's fine. As long as you're making money. Cause I remember,

00:19:17.920 reading, you know, read the biographies of these, these people from the, like the early 20th century,

00:19:23.300 late 19th century. And you have these like 14 year old kids who they drop out of school and they go

00:19:28.660 off on an adventure or do something. And the parents are like, oh, okay. I mean, I think it was like,

00:19:32.820 you know, Jack London would like, you know, when he was a teenager, just leave and he would be gone

00:19:37.240 for months and not telling anyone where he went. And then he'd come back and, oh, hey, Jack,

00:19:41.660 how's it going? And not a big deal. If that happened today, it would be pandemonium.

00:19:46.740 Yeah. My grandfather grew up in New York city. And when he was a boy in the depression, he would,

00:19:52.260 he lived in the Bronx and he would tell his parents, I'm going to, I'm going out. And he

00:19:56.400 would walk from the Bronx down to Manhattan, which is, that's where I'm sitting right, seated right

00:20:01.320 now, but it's quite a walk, walk around central park. It would take all day and then walk home.

00:20:05.800 It was, it was, it was like, you know, 11, 12 years old. That wouldn't happen today. But,

00:20:10.680 you know, back then we didn't have, you didn't need a graduate degree to do everything.

00:20:14.900 You know, there, there are degrees now. I mean, a lot of boys are interested in sports. And so

00:20:18.940 they go to college and they major in sports marketing or business, business sports. You

00:20:23.400 didn't need to use to do that maybe even 10 years ago. So that's another way that kids feel pressure

00:20:27.980 because the, you know, the entry bar has been raised by all the requirements that are needed,

00:20:31.800 even an MBA, you didn't need that to go into business. You just, you know, so things, yeah,

00:20:35.940 things are very different than that. No, no doubt. The other thing though, is where, where I also hear

00:20:40.640 parents talk a lot about achievement is with athletics and sports. And, you know, it's the,

00:20:46.940 it's the same thing that applies to school. Well, he's such a gifted athlete. Why isn't he kicking

00:20:51.600 the soccer ball, you know, practicing his, his shots on goal, you know, when he comes home from school or,

00:20:57.260 or, or, you know, practicing layups. And so parents expect kids to apply the same level of maturity and

00:21:05.220 achievement to sports that they sometimes do for school, not every kid is able or willing to do

00:21:10.540 that. And, you know, they're, they're also not necessarily headed for professional sports or even

00:21:16.380 scholarships. Although a lot of parents, you know, hope that with, as I said before, the rise in, in,

00:21:21.460 in a college tuition. So that's sometimes a part of it.

00:21:24.500 So besides the intense pressure, maybe nagging, we'll call it, that parents do on a lazy son,

00:21:31.060 what are some other responses you see parents take when they see an unmotivated teenage boy?

00:21:36.960 Well, I, you know, I'll go back to this, these, these concepts that I talked about,

00:21:40.660 because they're really central to what I write about in the book, the paradoxical response. So

00:21:45.000 prodding, poking, pleading, nagging, over parenting, looking at the, whatever online grade website

00:21:54.360 school system uses, which is, boy, is that going down a rabbit hole? Because if, you know,

00:21:59.380 if, if a parent is looking at that every day or even every week, the teachers don't always put,

00:22:05.280 you know, the kids say, hey, the teacher hasn't posted the grades. Well, sometimes they haven't

00:22:08.860 because it's, you know, it's another responsibility for the teacher and you can't measure what's going

00:22:12.740 on on a day-to-day basis. So, you know, so parents will just get involved in all sorts of ways,

00:22:19.140 going, you know, walking into a kid's room and saying, you know, do you need anything when they're

00:22:23.280 really checking on their homework or making sure they're doing their homework. And kids,

00:22:27.880 don't get me wrong. Kids need structure. They need supervision. They need limits.

00:22:33.680 And I'm not an advocate of, you know, letting a teenager do whatever they want and fail if they

00:22:38.420 fail, but they do need some space to make mistakes. How else are they going to learn

00:22:43.080 to deal with anxiety? How else are they going to learn to deal with adversity if they don't make

00:22:48.220 mistakes and learn from them? That's really what autonomy is about. It's not just about making,

00:22:52.900 you know, doing whatever you want. It's about making a choice and then seeing what the consequences are.

00:22:57.400 So what I lay out in the book is a program for parents to be able to step back and set some

00:23:06.060 parameters, work with kids on some goals, figure out if they need some support, and then step back

00:23:13.120 and let their kid figure it out and maybe even not do so well. And it's really hard. You know,

00:23:19.800 parents, sometimes parents have to, one parent even told me it was so hard to keep from going in to get

00:23:24.960 their kid out of bed in the morning. They went to the gym because they knew they needed to be out

00:23:31.060 of the house and then that, and their son needed to be able to get, and that's a big one, but to be

00:23:35.880 able to get out of bed on their own or not. And, you know, and it worked. It took, it took, it took a

00:23:39.940 couple of weeks, but, but this young man did eventually after being late, after getting

00:23:44.360 detentions, he finally figured out how to do it.

00:23:47.240 I think another response, a common response parents do besides the pressuring, like they'll just

00:23:51.160 basically do everything for their kids. So their kid will, I mean, I think the idea is that they're,

00:23:55.840 if they do everything for their kid, chores and whatever, like the kid will have more time to

00:24:00.480 focus on schoolwork, but that also doesn't work as well.

00:24:04.780 Uh, it was, I think, I believe it was Madeline Levine who said, she's a psychologist who writes

00:24:11.160 about over-parenting and affluent kids. And I believe it was her, I don't want to misattribute it,

00:24:15.920 but I believe she said, don't treat your kids like royalty who are expected to bring honor to

00:24:21.820 the family, you know, make them do chores. And, and, and that's, you know, I tell parents the same

00:24:26.960 thing, make them take out the trash. It's really important. And that's the first part of it. And

00:24:32.660 the second part of it is over-parenting as we've talked about. And I, and I talk about the four or

00:24:38.780 five different types of over-parenting that we get into with kids, different, you know, the warrior,

00:24:43.040 the perfectionist to talk about that and how to deal with that. But I also tell parents to

00:24:49.600 do this experiment, get some paper and you probably need a whole pad and write down everything you do

00:24:56.700 for your kids, even the little ones, write down everything you do for them in a week and then

00:25:01.200 look at the list and then figure out what are the things they can do for themselves, cross it off the

00:25:07.560 list. Then look at the things that they can do part of, they need some help with, but, you know,

00:25:12.900 especially younger kids, we call that in, in education, scaffolding, giving them the support

00:25:17.800 for the part of the thing they can't do yet. And then letting them figure out the rest, you know,

00:25:22.520 the, the, you know, the, the, if you remember in primary school, the paper that had the,

00:25:27.240 the two dark lines and the dotted line in the middle, I don't even know if they still use that

00:25:31.140 anymore, but, you know, that was an example of, well, here's where the lowercase letter goes,

00:25:35.000 that's scaffolding, but it, but, but around the house, it's, you know, let me figure out what,

00:25:39.460 you know, maybe they can't, they can't do the laundry, although most kids can, but they can,

00:25:44.120 you know, they can get their clothes down there or whatever. And then what are the things that you

00:25:48.100 really need to do for them? They can't do for themselves. And it's usually pretty eyeopening

00:25:52.360 and it gives parents a chance to step back and let kids have more independence and do,

00:25:57.900 do more for themselves. We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

00:26:01.240 Everyone wonder what makes an awesome pair of underwear. Comfort is obviously important. The way

00:26:05.140 the fabric makes you feel, but support plays a huge part too. You want to feel secure throughout

00:26:09.760 the day. Saks underwear has combined these two components, unlike ever before, creating what

00:26:13.780 may be the most comfortable pair of underwear in the world. Saks is designed differently. First,

00:26:18.200 they got their patented pouch, a ballpark pouch, which has these internal mesh panels that keeps

00:26:22.020 everything in place down there. So no more chafing, no more having to adjust yourself throughout the

00:26:25.680 day. And they use super soft moisture-weaking fabrics that makes very breathable and repels BO down

00:26:31.520 there. If you're looking for a pair to check out, check out the Kinetic Boxer Brief by Saks.

00:26:35.140 It's great for when you're very active, especially great during those hot, humid summers when

00:26:39.580 there's a lot of sweating down in the garage gym. If you want to try Saks underwear, I got an offer

00:26:44.320 for you. You can get $5 off plus free shipping on your first purchase when you use the code AWIM

00:26:49.500 at checkout. So order a few pairs today at SaksUnderwear.com. That's S-A-X-X-Underwear.com.

00:26:56.100 That's two X's. And you got to use promo code AWIM at checkout to get that $5 off plus free shipping.

00:27:00.800 Again, SaksUnderwear.com, promo code AWIM to get $5 off plus free shipping on your first

00:27:05.980 purchase. Also buy OneFix. Most diets fail because they make you change way too many foods

00:27:10.860 all at once. When you want to fix how you eat, you should do the opposite. Make one change,

00:27:15.220 do it slowly, and let it stick. With the OneFix app, a nutritionist will analyze all your meals.

00:27:19.980 You're going to find out the one thing that's causing your body to store extra body fat and

00:27:23.120 give you a fix. You're going to do that one fix every day for one month. Just doing one fix

00:27:27.220 so it's easy. When it becomes a part of who you are, you can begin the next fix. How does

00:27:30.780 this nutritionist analyze all your meals? Well, you're going to take a picture of everything you

00:27:33.760 put into your mouth. They're going to look at that and they're going to say, hey, eliminate that one

00:27:37.380 thing from your diet or swap this for that on this one thing on your diet. Do that for one month.

00:27:43.020 Once you've made that fix and it's part of who you are, you're going to do the next one.

00:27:46.260 If diabetes or heart disease runs in your families or you've been trying to lose that 30 pounds for

00:27:51.120 a long time, OneFix can be a big help in helping you achieve that goal. If you want to make something

00:27:56.140 permanent, you got to do it one fix at a time. Go to OneFix.com and use the code manliness to get

00:28:00.700 $50 off your first month. That's OneFix.com. Code manliness to get $50 off the first month.

00:28:06.360 Once you download the app, a nutritionist will help you get started. Get OneFix today.

00:28:10.340 And now back to the show. So going back to a more appropriate response that's more productive.

00:28:15.340 So you talked about setting boundaries. So what does that look like? So you're setting boundaries,

00:28:20.140 but allowing them autonomy within those boundaries. What would a good boundary look like that

00:28:25.880 also allows for autonomy in a teenage boy? Well, I think about limit setting as a fence you build

00:28:33.040 around your child and you build it around your child to protect them. The thing about that fence

00:28:39.200 is it can't be static. It can't be grounded in cement. It has to grow. It has to become bigger

00:28:45.780 as a child becomes bigger so that they have more opportunities to explore, to make mistakes,

00:28:53.860 to have fun. It should never also for teenagers be so high that they can't climb over it occasionally.

00:29:00.580 They're going to get into trouble, but that's where they learn and that's where they understand

00:29:05.240 their limits. For things that involve safety, limits are absolute. You know, there's no question

00:29:11.120 about letting a new driver who says, oh yeah, I want to go visit my friend at college, you know,

00:29:16.100 four hours away. I just got my license. No, I don't think so. You need a little bit more

00:29:20.700 experience with that. Drugs and alcohol, you know, when you, and that's, I'm sure that's a whole other

00:29:26.580 podcast, but when you, when you catch a kid doing something, you need to, you need to set a limit.

00:29:33.820 It could be grounding. It doesn't have to be, you know, that they can't go out of the house ever again,

00:29:38.120 but nor should it be, you know, well, they're safer if they're doing it in my house because they need

00:29:42.860 to know where the limits are. They need to know someone is watching them. It's the, it's the kids

00:29:47.640 whose parents condone that I find get into the most trouble. And the kids who know that their

00:29:51.400 parents are watching and they get into trouble, they don't necessarily stop, but they definitely

00:29:55.140 stay within a safe range. So that's, that, those are the safety issues. There's a whole set of,

00:30:00.580 of, of, of issues that probably go in a different basket. Sometimes they're important to enforce.

00:30:06.580 Sometimes they're not important to enforce. Sometimes it's really important to set a bedtime.

00:30:11.360 Other times you can be more flexible. Obviously it's related to what's going on in school.

00:30:15.600 Sometimes there's, there is less homework and there can be more, you know, more flexibility.

00:30:21.140 Other times you want to say you got to do your homework first. Again, this is for younger kids.

00:30:25.080 And then there's a basket of things that you may feel are important to you, but you can give the

00:30:33.740 kids some autonomy. Clothing, you know, is, is a, is a, is a good example of that, but that's just one

00:30:40.040 example. And, and, and, and, and different people have different, you know, sets of standards for

00:30:43.800 that. But when it comes to schoolwork though, and that's really what we're talking about,

00:30:48.860 my suggestion is to set a standard with, with kids, which is usually to get Bs. You know,

00:30:57.220 if they want to get A's, that's up to them. A lot of parents don't like to hear this, but,

00:31:00.760 but that's what I believe. They may get a C in a, in a, in a class that's difficult for them,

00:31:05.660 but basically to get Bs and then to ask them how they're going to do it and then to step back and

00:31:12.460 then to observe how they're doing. Probably not to wait for a whole semester, but also not to do

00:31:17.680 it on a daily basis. So somewhere mid-semester to see how things are going. And if they're not

00:31:22.120 achieving what you think they should or what you've agreed that they should, that's reasonable,

00:31:26.600 then it's time to say, you know what? I think you have too much free time.

00:31:30.640 I think maybe we need to cut down on or eliminate social life, computer time, whatever, so that you

00:31:40.920 have more time to do your homework. If a kid has social issues, you don't necessarily want to take

00:31:45.640 that away, but there are plenty of other things too. That is not going to force the kid to do their

00:31:50.220 homework. You can't, you can, you know, you, you can put them in front of a computer and a desk. You

00:31:54.860 can't actually make them work, but it'll make it much more, much more possible that they might.

00:31:59.660 And so, yeah, within those boundaries and you give them those choices, you have to let them

00:32:03.800 fail because they're going to flounder and you have to be okay with that.

00:32:07.480 You have to let them flounder. Yeah. I think that's really important. What's happening that

00:32:13.980 we see more and more, and Brett, I see it in my practice, even just more this year than last year

00:32:19.180 and last year than the year before, are kids that go to college and can't cut it and, and have to

00:32:25.120 take a leave. Um, I, I often have a few kids in my practice that are in that situation, but it's,

00:32:31.620 you know, it seems like I've been flooded with it, you know, uh, last spring and even this fall.

00:32:36.980 And part of the problem is that we're not letting kids figure out how to do things on their own and

00:32:44.200 manage their own anxiety. And we can talk about that in a minute, but, you know, manage the anxiety

00:32:48.760 that comes from not being sure whether you are able to do something, uh, figure out a math problem,

00:32:53.660 write a paper, master a sports, a sports skill. And so by rushing in too quickly and over parenting,

00:33:01.500 we're preventing kids from learning about themselves in ways that are really important.

00:33:06.620 We want parents to ask me all the time, you know, what, how can I give my kid coping skills?

00:33:12.100 You know, well, the way to do that is to let back and let them cope, give them something to cope with

00:33:16.700 and let them cope, you know, to let them have a little risk in their life. There's actually a,

00:33:21.340 uh, a school in, in, in, in England that decided this, this is for younger kids, but they wanted

00:33:26.480 to bring risk back to the playground. They'd made it too safe. So they, they brought in things that

00:33:31.980 had sharp edges and they brought scissors back into the classroom. And the teacher said, uh, you know,

00:33:37.360 for the first time they cut themselves, they learned to be more careful. So I don't know if I

00:33:41.200 advocate all that, but, uh, I think it's really important. And, and, you know, I hear about,

00:33:46.700 parents who, and this is the extreme, but parents, one parent who went to a college admissions

00:33:53.080 interview with the kid and had the kid sit in the waiting room. I heard this from a college

00:33:56.840 admissions officer. Well, he went in and, and told the college, college admissions officer how great

00:34:02.660 his kid was. It's kind of crazy. There's, there's been reports of parents even going to work with

00:34:07.880 their kids or calling their kid's boss as a young adult. So this is really preventing kids from being

00:34:13.880 able to trust that their, their own independence and their own future.

00:34:17.720 Yeah. I mean, it's funny that parents are like, I want my kid to be responsible,

00:34:20.380 but I'm not going to let them be responsible. It's like, it doesn't make any sense.

00:34:25.780 And it comes from a place of caring. It comes from a place of love.

00:34:29.340 It comes with the best intentions. It comes from, as we said before, a worry and a fear about the future.

00:34:35.760 You know, parents aren't doing this just because they want to make,

00:34:38.120 you know, make life more difficult for their kids. They want to make it easier,

00:34:43.060 but that's, yeah, the end result is not so good.

00:34:45.880 And then some of the consequences too, like say, like cleaning your room, you talk about this,

00:34:50.720 like, all right, can he needs to clean his room or do his, if, you know, he needs to put his laundry

00:34:54.400 in the laundry basket or do his laundry. Well, if he doesn't do that, then he's got to suffer the

00:34:59.540 consequences of wearing smelly clothes and you have to be okay with that because that's that,

00:35:04.820 that's how he's going to learn. This is, this is really true. And I have actually

00:35:08.700 heard kids tell me that they, they, they had other kids tell them your clothes smell. And that's when

00:35:14.860 they decided to do something about it. But laundry is a great example because, you know, you say

00:35:21.040 laundry day is on Wednesday or whenever it is, and your clothes have to be in the hamper on Wednesday.

00:35:26.760 And if they're not in the hamper on Wednesday, you have to do the laundry. And I'm going to show you

00:35:31.420 how I'm going to teach you now how to do the laundry, you know, make it simple, cold water

00:35:36.120 only, you know, and separate the college from the white clothes and you're all set. Good to go.

00:35:41.860 And then if they don't, then they don't do their own laundry, then they have to wear those clothes.

00:35:46.920 Yeah. So that's, that's, that's a perfect example. The room thing is a little more difficult.

00:35:51.380 Um, I think every parent has their own feelings about this. I do believe that to some extent a kid

00:35:59.340 should be able to have that as, as their own domain. It's probably not worth the power struggle 0.83

00:36:04.300 every day. There does need to be, uh, hygiene. So food in the room is not a good idea. Every,

00:36:12.380 it could be every once a week, the room needs to be, you know, picked up and clean so that it can be

00:36:17.720 vacuumed and dusted, but that, that's once a week or whatever. It doesn't have to be every day. That's,

00:36:23.260 that's how I feel about that. Different parents feel differently though.

00:36:26.320 Yeah. Here's an example of my own life. After reading your book, I was like, I want to put

00:36:29.480 this stuff into practice. I have a son, he's eight, right? So he's not a teenager yet, but I'm,

00:36:33.860 I want to inculcate these, this sense of responsibility in them. And last week he gets

00:36:38.980 like homework every night. It's like a worksheet takes like five minutes and it goes in a folder

00:36:43.740 and we're on the driving him to school and he realized he forgot his folder. And he's like, dad,

00:36:49.580 you got to go get my folder and bring it to me. I'm like, sorry, man. Like it's not my job.

00:36:54.980 And he was just like, Oh no, it's going to, it's like the end of the world. But yeah,

00:36:59.580 the consequence was he had, he had to miss like 10 minutes of recess. So he couldn't do his

00:37:03.020 worksheet. But ever since then, yeah, I didn't go get his, I didn't go get his folder ever since

00:37:07.700 then. The guy, the kid's been on top of it. Like at night, he has everything packed and ready to go.

00:37:12.600 Haven't had to worry about it since then. So it works.

00:37:16.120 That's a great example. Um, and you know, you already did some scaffolding by giving him that

00:37:21.240 notebook to put his homework in, right? You gave him that you organized that for him, but, but,

00:37:26.180 but Brett, was that easy for you or was it a little bit hard to, to, you know, to do that now

00:37:30.620 that he was going to, it was pretty, it was pretty easy. I don't know. I didn't have a problem.

00:37:36.180 It's just, it's, it's just 10 minutes of recess. You're going to be okay.

00:37:40.560 Good. Well, that's good. And that's a good attitude, but a lot of parents really have trouble

00:37:44.220 seeing their kids suffer and be uncomfortable. And you know, that's part of the root of this.

00:37:48.900 Yeah. I read an article. It's not, there's, we're seeing not just helicopter parenting,

00:37:53.260 it's lawnmower parenting. And it's because the parents mow over all the obstacles that come up

00:38:00.200 for their kids. Yeah. I've seen that too. Yeah. In, in, in, in, in Sweden, they call it

00:38:06.820 curling parenting because if you've ever watched curling on the Olympics, parents sweep all the

00:38:11.700 obstacles out of the way. So I think that's my favorite. No, that's a good one. I like that.

00:38:15.480 And so let's, how long, let's say you start working with a unmotivated boy, you start providing

00:38:21.840 him more autonomy and making choices and floundering. Like how long does it typically take? I'm sure it's

00:38:29.160 different for every boy, but how long do you start seeing the change where you start seeing them

00:38:33.200 taking on more responsibility and making and getting more motivated about say schoolwork?

00:38:37.900 You know, I have yet to be asked that question and, and it, and I'm really glad that you did

00:38:42.680 because you asked me because it takes a while. You know, sometimes it can take three years of high

00:38:49.380 school for some kids. Remember those are the late bloomers. That young man may not go to the college

00:38:58.060 that if he's college bound and college is an option, he may not go to the college

00:39:03.340 that his parents dreamed of sending him to. He may not go to the college that he wanted to go to.

00:39:10.600 He may not even go to the college that his friends are going to. But the thing is,

00:39:14.080 first of all, he will probably go to a college that will be the best fit for him.

00:39:19.860 He probably will be a kind of kid who needs to be a big fish in a little pond. And that's where he,

00:39:24.620 that's where he will blossom and grow. And the other thing is that, you know, with the competition in

00:39:29.140 colleges, these institutions, they all offer such amazing things. I mean, it's unbelievable. You

00:39:35.120 know, it doesn't have to be, have the stamp of Harvard to be a phenomenal institution. So,

00:39:39.920 so sometimes it takes that long. It depends on the kid. It usually takes a while. What I see in my

00:39:45.620 practice, you know, and, and as a therapist, I can, I, I have different ways of talking about these

00:39:51.580 things with kids that parents don't necessarily have because of the parents. And my approach is always to

00:39:57.960 try to help the, the, the teenager figure out what's in it for them, you know, to separate it out

00:40:06.460 from their parents' need. This is a little bit different, but it's an example. I saw a teenager

00:40:12.220 who started in therapy not too long ago and his parents forced him to come to the first session

00:40:16.180 and he was really unhappy about it, but he came. And so about midway through, I said, well,

00:40:21.940 or actually at the end, I said, you know, you seem to have talked a lot today. Why don't you come

00:40:26.300 back next week and come back for you, not for your parents and then see how therapy is. And you

00:40:33.340 know, he really likes being in therapy now, but that's an example from a little bit of a different

00:40:37.900 arena that comes to mind about looking into the teenager and seeing how they can, they can get

00:40:44.520 more engaged. It's frustrating for me sometime because, you know, I feel like I'm, I'm being paid

00:40:49.560 to do this. I need to produce results. And sometimes it's, it takes longer than I wanted to.

00:40:55.120 But what I do notice is along the way, the young man in therapy or the young woman too is, is getting

00:41:02.720 more confident. They're fighting less with their parents. They are, there are signs that they're

00:41:08.720 finding school a little more interesting and they're happier. So I, I can kind of monitor things

00:41:14.160 along the way that lead to, you know, improvement in school. I once gave a young man a challenge. I

00:41:21.080 said, I want you to turn in your homework every day for this marking period. I don't care if it's

00:41:30.360 incomplete. Maybe sometimes it'll just have your name on it. Maybe sometimes it'll be perfect.

00:41:36.040 I want you to commit to turning in your assignments every day, which he did. He turned in his assignments

00:41:40.460 every single day. And that was what changed, turned things around for him. He's now, he's actually now

00:41:46.060 a teacher. He got a, I got a graduate degree in teaching. Wow. So as we've been having this

00:41:51.040 conversation, you know, we, our conversation has been about what we can do for kids. And your primary

00:41:57.380 focus is counseling children, but I imagine you have to do some counseling with parents at the same

00:42:02.260 time. Unwittingly, like they don't know that the parents are getting counseled, but you have to do

00:42:06.360 that in order to help the kid. Yeah, I do. And I work with adults too in my practice. And so sometimes

00:42:12.580 I'm coaching parents. Sometimes parents come to see me about, you know, how, and that's really touching

00:42:17.980 when a parent is willing to get into therapy themselves to figure out how to help and improve

00:42:22.580 their relationship with their kid. But yeah, there is a lot of parent coaching that goes on. It is often what I

00:42:29.060 want to do is have a family session and have the parents come in with the teenager. 99% of the

00:42:35.920 time the teenager does not want to do that and refuses, but would be fine with me talking to the

00:42:41.180 parent. And, you know, it takes time for the parents too. It takes time for them to trust me, to trust the

00:42:46.760 process and mostly to trust their kids. And, you know, what I say to parents is parenting isn't a skill.

00:42:52.900 It's a relationship. It's not a skill. It's a relationship. And if you trust the relationship, things are

00:43:00.020 going to work out in the end. And I think that that's very reassuring for parents. Some, they usually,

00:43:05.920 often get the message to back off, but it's sometimes harder to put into place. And then

00:43:11.180 there's also work that I do with kids in terms of being better advocates for themselves, being

00:43:16.740 respectful, but stating their needs with their parents when parents are too demanding. And that's

00:43:22.440 also really important for kids because it gives them a voice. I often prepare the parents first and

00:43:27.740 I don't, you know, I'm not trying to incite riots here. And I have to be respectful of every

00:43:32.300 family's values. But nonetheless, it's really important to be able to have kids and parents

00:43:37.820 talk to each other and have that dialogue.

00:43:40.180 Right. Because I imagine, I mean, a lot of the problem, I mean, issues with the parents putting

00:43:44.160 pressure on their kids is the parents feel like their identity and their worth is tied up in how

00:43:49.360 their kids do in school. And if they're failing at school, it means they failed as a parent. And

00:43:54.140 not necessarily, right?

00:43:57.380 You know, that's very insightful. If you ever get tired of being a podcast host,

00:44:00.720 you can become a therapist because that's very insightful. And I think it's true. I think that

00:44:05.920 we put everything into our kids. You know, it's the most powerful relationship there is. You know,

00:44:12.820 it's different than a relationship with your spouse. It's different than a relationship with your

00:44:16.500 parents. You know, parents hope that their kids are going to have a different life than they had,

00:44:22.680 that make different, you know, and not make the same mistakes than they made. And, you know,

00:44:28.260 I often tell parents, you can't shortcut that. They need to learn. They need to make, you know,

00:44:32.260 they need to have some pain, as I said before. So, so it's really hard. And, and some parents

00:44:37.900 over-identify with their kids. I have an exercise in my book about that because sometimes parents

00:44:43.120 feel like it's their problem. You know, they see their kid go through something and they think,

00:44:48.160 well, I went through that. It must be the same. You know, Jim must, Jimmy must,

00:44:52.680 be having the same reaction I had when I was cut from the team or whatever. And it's not always

00:44:57.260 the case. So there's also space that needs to be given. Yeah. I heard this great piece of

00:45:02.600 parental advice that I've sort of used as a guiding principle with my parenting. It's like,

00:45:07.040 your job as a parent, your primary job as a parent is to keep your kids safe physically,

00:45:11.960 right? It's not your job to make them happy. And I was like, you know what? That's good advice.

00:45:16.800 I can't, you can't make someone happy. You can provide, you know, a foundation for that,

00:45:21.420 but it's up, you know, they've got to make those choices for themselves.

00:45:24.640 I really liked that. I really liked that. And it makes me think of something a parent said to me

00:45:28.520 years ago, which is, I don't want my kid to be happy. I want them to be able to work hard because

00:45:33.460 if they work hard, they'll be happy. No, I love that. I mean, and also another issue that parents

00:45:38.700 might have, let's say there's a parent listening to the show and they've got a son who is unmotivated in

00:45:44.460 school and you're trying to talk to him about it, but he just clams up. I mean, any insights that

00:45:51.560 parents can use to, you know, get a disengaged boy to, to talk to them?

00:45:55.840 Oh yeah. And, and there's a lot to be said about that. I'll tell you the most important thing a

00:46:00.980 parent can do to get a child to talk, keep their mouth shut. Because what happens is that we want to

00:46:08.540 give advice. We want to give solutions. We want to tell them what we went through and, you know,

00:46:15.700 it's true for parents. It's true for therapists. The less you say, the more the person on the other

00:46:20.600 side of the room is going to say when they know that you're listening. So if, if, if that's the

00:46:26.580 only thing, you know, a parent can take from this, that's, that's really powerful. The second thing

00:46:32.120 is to use empathy and to validate how a child feels. And this isn't true for kids, just for

00:46:41.320 kids. It's true for adults. It's true for everybody. We want to have our feelings validated. Now that

00:46:47.420 does not mean that you have to agree with the feeling, right? They're just feelings. It doesn't

00:46:51.180 mean you have to agree with the perspective. All it means is that you understand where the person's

00:46:57.720 coming from. And you can say, I understand where you're coming from, or I get that, but, you know,

00:47:02.580 it's really important to do the work to really get it, to really understand, you know, a kid comes

00:47:07.820 home and says, my teacher hates me, you know? Well, probably not, right? Kids often say that it's rare

00:47:15.340 for a teacher really to hate a kid. And, but the first thing that you want to do is say, oh, you know,

00:47:20.620 you're perfect. How could anybody hate you? Or I'm sure they don't hate you. Well,

00:47:25.760 don't do that so quickly, you know, try to get their perspective. But how do you get their

00:47:30.420 perspective? By asking questions. So rather than first listen, but also ask questions and try to

00:47:38.920 ask questions that get at what they're feeling. Now this process is going to take some time

00:47:44.260 because the teenager is going to have to trust that you really are interested in listening and

00:47:50.080 understanding. Not trust that you love them, not trust that you're taking care of them, but trust that

00:47:54.720 their opinion counts because that's really so important for teenagers to feel as we were talking

00:47:59.960 about before with identity and autonomy and transitioning to adulthood, you know? And they

00:48:04.500 sometimes have some wacky ideas and they think they figured everything out. I love this quote. It's

00:48:09.220 Mark Twain who said, you know, my father, my father didn't, when I was 16, my father didn't know

00:48:14.120 anything. You know, he didn't understand how the world worked. I'm amazed at how smart he got by the

00:48:18.960 time I turned 23. So that's kind of how they look at things. But, but I think that listening,

00:48:25.200 asking questions, validating feelings, getting them to talk more is, is really important. And

00:48:33.320 if they're really clamming up, you can, you can say, well, you know, we'll talk about this later,

00:48:40.000 but we, but we really need to talk about it. So I want you to think about this and I will really,

00:48:44.340 I will set some ground rules and the ground rules are, I'm not going to judge you. I'm not going to

00:48:48.200 give you advice. I just want to hear it from you. And sometimes a parent just has to listen

00:48:52.300 and say, great. I'm glad we had this conversation. You know, there's a joke. I just got off the phone

00:48:58.240 with my mother. She had a very good conversation. You want to, you want to try to flip that and have

00:49:03.680 that with your kid too. Sometimes you just have to listen and let it be that. And then eventually

00:49:07.140 you'll be able to talk more. Well, Dr. Price, is there some place people can go to learn more

00:49:10.840 about the book and your work? Yeah, absolutely. They can go to the he's not lazy.com. They can,

00:49:16.760 or go to my website. I have, I have a blog on psychology today called the unmotivated teen.

00:49:22.580 The book just can't, it's obviously available, you know, at quality bookstores and on Amazon and

00:49:27.240 Barnes and Noble. And it just came out in the audio version last Friday. So I'm really excited about

00:49:31.260 that. Well, fantastic. Dr. Adam Price, thanks for coming on. This has been a great conversation.

00:49:34.720 It's been a real pleasure. Thank you for having me.

00:49:37.060 My guest today was Dr. Adam Price. He's the author of the book, He's Not Lazy. It's available on

00:49:40.780 amazon.com. You can find out more information about his work and his book at he'snotlazy.com.

00:49:45.300 Also, check out our show notes at aom.is slash notlazy, where you can find links to resources,

00:49:51.220 where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:50:04.660 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice,

00:50:09.160 make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And if you enjoy the show,

00:50:13.300 you got something out of it, I'd appreciate it if you give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher.

00:50:16.540 Helps out a lot. And if you've done that already, thank you. Please consider sharing the show with

00:50:20.000 a friend or family member who you think would get something out of it. As always,

00:50:22.920 thank you for your continued support. And until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay

00:50:26.340 manly.

The Art of Manliness - October 10, 2018

#448： Your Son Isn't Lazy — How to Empower Boys to Succeed

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript