The Art of Manliness - #450： How to Make Time for What Really Matters Every Day

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00:01:30.400 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. Your days seem

00:01:35.040 like a continuous blur of busyness and yet you don't seem to get much done nor remember much about

00:01:39.760 how you spend your time. As a former employee of Google, Mike Geste worked on the very apps and

00:01:43.920 technology that can often suck away our time. Today, he's dedicated to figuring out how to push

00:01:48.180 back against these forces to help people take control of their time and attention. His name

00:01:51.800 is John Zeratsky and he's the co-author of the book, Make Time, How to Focus on What Matters Every Day.

00:01:56.720 Today on the show, John shares how the experience of feeling like he was missing months of his life

00:02:00.520 led to him spending years experimenting with habits and routines, looking for the best ways to

00:02:04.520 optimize energy, focus, and time. He then shares the simple four-step daily framework that he developed

00:02:09.000 from this research and walks us through that system. John talks about choosing one highlight

00:02:12.940 each day to ensure your most important work gets done and that your life is full of memorable

00:02:16.460 moments. He also shares how to reduce the time you spend in waiting what he calls infinity pools,

00:02:20.960 why energy management is just as important as time management, and how reflection is essential

00:02:25.020 in figuring out what you're doing is actually working. Lots of valuable direction in this show for

00:02:29.560 you to get your life on track and find more hours and meaning of the day. After it's over,

00:02:33.240 check out our show notes at awim.is slash make time. John Zeratsky, welcome to the show.

00:02:50.680 Thanks a lot for having me.

00:02:51.820 So you co-authored a book, Make Time, How to Focus on What Matters Every Day. This is interesting

00:02:57.400 because your co-author, Jake, and you, you both worked at Google, correct?

00:03:02.800 Yeah, that's right.

00:03:03.820 All right. So you guys, and you also spent time designing the apps that people spend a lot of

00:03:09.240 time on, right? Gmail, YouTube, the things that people are like, oh, I need to get a handle on

00:03:15.800 this stuff. But then you guys come out with a book saying, here's how to manage your time and not be

00:03:21.420 distracted by these things we help create. I mean, what was the impetus behind the book?

00:03:27.280 Did you guys have a problem with this stuff too?

00:03:30.600 Yeah, definitely. So as you pointed out, working in technology, working on these products was such

00:03:37.780 an interesting spot for us to be because on the one hand, you were working on, on apps that people

00:03:45.100 find very distracting that people struggle with. And so we're kind of on the inside and we know how

00:03:49.980 these things are made. And that, that gives us ideas for how people might make some adjustments,

00:03:55.060 make some changes to affect that relationship. But the other thing that was pretty interesting was

00:04:00.900 technology in many ways is kind of the ground zero or the epicenter for a lot of what's,

00:04:07.740 what's crazy about our work cultures and about our, the defaults that we all operate under.

00:04:14.540 So, you know, big tech companies, lots of meetings, lots of email, there's instant messaging,

00:04:19.880 there's an expectation that you're going to be online, you're going to be plugged in,

00:04:23.060 you're going to be responsive. So we definitely, we both struggled working in that environment to

00:04:28.960 feel like we were, you know, using our energy and our time while at work, but also having something

00:04:34.400 left over for ourselves.

00:04:36.660 Yeah. I mean, you make the point, like these apps, like they, they help, they definitely help

00:04:40.120 our lives, right? They improve our lives. But if you let, you have to learn how to manage it and

00:04:44.840 take control of instead of them controlling you, let's talk about, you had this moment,

00:04:49.600 this epiphany, right? You were, you were working and you felt like you were just like missing out

00:04:55.120 like on months of your life, right? Like you didn't realize that like three months had passed and you

00:05:00.740 like, you couldn't remember like what happened during those three months. Tell us about that.

00:05:04.340 Yeah. Yeah. So maybe to put that in context, we can go back to 2005 when I graduated from college

00:05:12.220 and I was lucky enough to get a job at a tech startup in Chicago called Feedburner.

00:05:18.420 And I'd been in school and I had started a little web design business. So, you know, I had sort of

00:05:23.280 developed some habits and some ways of making sure I was, I was productive. I was getting things done,

00:05:27.620 but I was dropped into this company in this team that was very high performing. It was kind of the

00:05:34.720 classic ideal of a tech startup. You know, it was, it was hard work, hustle, long hours, you know,

00:05:40.100 people were, were super smart, super talented. And I wanted to thrive in that environment. I wanted

00:05:46.940 to make the most of that opportunity. So I got really obsessed with productivity. And when I say

00:05:52.620 productivity, I mean it in kind of the, the sense of trying to be as optimized and efficient and,

00:05:59.080 and, you know, leave no scrap of time unused. So I, I became obsessed with the book,

00:06:05.880 getting things done. That was sort of like my Bible. And I had the filing system and the to-do

00:06:10.560 lists. And I had the stack of note cards that I carried with me at all times. And, and to a certain

00:06:15.780 extent that worked, but I, but I always felt like there had to be a better way. I felt like being

00:06:23.640 productive was good, but it often just kind of made me feel like a machine, you know, just sort of

00:06:29.340 like cranking through these endless lists of tasks I needed to do. In 2007, Feedburner was bought by

00:06:36.620 Google. And so then I was, I was working at Google and life was, was really good. Like I, you know,

00:06:43.700 had this great job. I had a great girlfriend who's not my wife. We had just moved into a new place in

00:06:49.300 Chicago. But like you said, I, I woke up one day with kind of this feeling that time was just slipping

00:06:55.760 away from me. And I started to try to figure out what was going on. And I realized that I didn't have

00:07:05.060 anything of substance going on day to day that I could sort of hold on to. I was in this productivity

00:07:11.500 mindset of just cranking through, going to the meetings, answering the emails, getting things

00:07:16.640 done. But it was all kind of at this consistent level of these, you know, small tasks. And it just

00:07:22.480 led to this feeling that time was, was slipping away. Right. And then, I mean, I think I've,

00:07:27.480 we've all experienced that. And I, I, the way I kind of described it, the way I've experienced is

00:07:31.940 that I remember as a kid, I had these memories from like being a kid where I just like, like these

00:07:37.480 moments, right. That they were really mundane, but for whatever reason they stuck with me. And then as

00:07:42.480 an adult, I found like I got fewer of those, right. Because you do this, you do the same thing day in

00:07:48.880 and day out and everything just sort of bleeds together. Yeah. I mean, I think that our days,

00:07:53.980 you know, living as, as professionals in the 21st century, I think that our days tend to be made up

00:07:59.900 of, of mostly small kind of inconsequential tasks, you know, things that happen. And the process of

00:08:07.180 forming memories, it, it happens automatically. You know, it just sort of, some things might stick out,

00:08:13.840 some things might not, but when, when, when nothing is sort of that big of a deal, I think

00:08:20.140 it's difficult to create those memories that, that make you feel like you're, you're living

00:08:26.060 in time instead of just like, you know, seeing time move by. I, I read around that time when I was

00:08:32.980 struggling, this was like 2008. I, I read a book called Wrapped by Winifred Gallagher. It was a really

00:08:40.240 incredible book that has stuck with me for a long time. And she makes the argument that

00:08:45.000 your experience of life is not necessarily what happens to you. It's what you pay attention to.

00:08:54.300 And that was a big turning point for me. I realized that if I started to intentionally build my days

00:09:01.500 around the things that I wanted to remember, then I could choose to pay attention to those.

00:09:07.780 And that would, that would have the effect of sort of slowing down the passage of time,

00:09:12.580 very much like, you know, being a kid and, and just having those, those, those summers that went

00:09:17.160 on and on and those amazing memories from, from those days. Yeah. So, okay. The solution to this

00:09:22.720 was this thing you called highlights. So what is a highlight? Yeah. So a highlight is the one

00:09:28.780 activity or thing that you want to prioritize and protect in your day. So the idea is that

00:09:36.820 it's not the only thing you'll do, you know, and it's not like, you know, I don't think I'm

00:09:41.300 unrealistic. You know, I don't want to encourage people to like, you know, have this expectation

00:09:45.220 that they can completely clear their calendar, clear their day. But by choosing a highlight,

00:09:50.880 you can kind of build your day around it. You can make sure that no matter what else happens,

00:09:55.480 you made time for that one thing. And, and you can, you can feel like that time was well spent.

00:10:01.740 So I mean, what's an example of that? I mean, is this like, are the highlights like work related

00:10:06.000 or are they like something that just makes your life meaningful that you want to do?

00:10:10.460 Yeah. For me, they're, they're all of the above. They, they tend to be more work related stuff

00:10:15.660 for me. You know, like I often spend time on my highlight first thing in the morning,

00:10:21.000 right after I wake up, I went through this, this process of becoming a morning person about five,

00:10:27.320 six years ago. So I love to wake up, make some coffee and work on my highlight, which is usually

00:10:32.720 writing something or doing some kind of design work or something that's related to work.

00:10:38.440 But in the book, we talk about a few different kind of approaches for coming up with your highlight.

00:10:44.660 And what I described is, I think, kind of an example of, of satisfaction, you know, looking at

00:10:50.360 what task or activity is going to be really satisfying. It's not necessarily the most urgent thing,

00:10:55.320 but it's the thing that it's, it's going to be a good chunk of work that you, you want to do and

00:11:00.200 you feel good about doing it. But sometimes my highlight is something that needs to get done,

00:11:05.000 you know, something that's, that's urgent. And that's another strategy. And, and a lot of times,

00:11:09.580 you know, like on Saturday, my wife and I are, we just moved to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and we're taking

00:11:15.440 a food tour. That's sort of a, a tour of Milwaukee for Milwaukeeans. And so I know that on Saturday,

00:11:22.200 like, that's going to be my highlight, like, that's going to be the thing. It's, it's not something

00:11:26.200 I have to get done. It's not something productive, but it's something that I want to do. And I'm going

00:11:30.540 to kind of build my day around really enjoying and savoring that.

00:11:34.780 So if you, so as long as you accomplish your highlight, like that day was a win, even if you

00:11:38.400 didn't get much done else.

00:11:40.140 That's, I mean, that's, that's my take, you know, I think there's always,

00:11:44.780 there's always bad stuff that can happen to us, but my experience, and I think experience that's

00:11:51.880 backed up by some research and, and by experience of experiences of other people, people who have,

00:11:58.460 who have read about this stuff as we've been writing about it before the book, you know, just on,

00:12:02.140 on the web, it seems to be the case that when you build your days around one thing that you want

00:12:09.880 to make time for time moves more slowly and you feel better about the way you spent that time.

00:12:16.140 So let's talk about how you establish these highlights. Cause like, I think people have

00:12:20.200 heard the idea of, you know, style, you know, people establish goals for themselves, but usually

00:12:23.200 goals are often abstract and too far away in the future. It's like, well, save for retirement or

00:12:28.360 like, I'm going to go on a vacation. Totally. So how does a highlight differ from a goal in that regard?

00:12:34.600 Yeah. I mean, a highlight is really short term. It's, it's something that you want to do that day.

00:12:39.700 It's very much a daily process. And I think Jake and I kind of have this, this hypothesis that

00:12:49.080 most advice about time management and self-help kind of stuff is, is way too intimidating.

00:12:56.960 You know, it was really big. It's like, it's like, you know, what do you want your life to be? You

00:13:02.040 know, where do you want to be in five years? You know, it's, it's really grand. And I think when

00:13:05.860 you're, when you're feeling busy and you're feeling distracted and you're feeling like you're,

00:13:10.020 you're on autopilot and like the days are sort of flying by, trying to break from that and all

00:13:17.560 of a sudden shift into thinking about these grand plans, I think is, is pretty tough. It's pretty

00:13:23.140 unrealistic. So our belief is that if you can start small, you can start by identifying what you want

00:13:31.320 to do that day, the thing you want to make time for, and then starting to, to reclaim a little

00:13:38.140 bit of the time that you might otherwise lose to, to your smartphone, social media, meetings, email,

00:13:46.380 whatever, a lot of these default behaviors. If you can start to reclaim a little bit of that time,

00:13:51.760 it can build from there. You'll have a little bit more space, a little bit more time to think

00:13:56.380 about what's important to you. You'll recognize the things that you enjoy doing, the things that

00:14:01.900 are motivating to you and that create that clarity and sense of purpose around your time. And those

00:14:06.980 might build into something really grand and big. They might build into, you know, some trip or a

00:14:12.540 career change or retirement, but they might not. They might just be something that makes your existing

00:14:19.380 life a little bit better, a little bit slower, a little bit, you know, more joyful.

00:14:24.000 Well, one example you give in the book of a highlight was you and your wife built this boat

00:14:29.020 and wanted to go sailing. So that's like a huge goal. So like, did you just, did you just break

00:14:35.620 it down? Like, you know, you decided Saturday is going to be boat day. I'm going to make at least

00:14:39.520 two hours for boat day. Is that how that worked?

00:14:42.060 Kind of. Yeah. And just to make sure that I'm not getting any undue credit, we did not build a boat.

00:14:46.500 Okay. You had to repair it though, right?

00:14:48.580 Yeah. We, we bought an old boat and then we ended up selling that one and getting a different boat. And,

00:14:53.040 and yeah, we, we ultimately ended up spending about eight months on the boat. We sailed from San

00:14:58.000 Francisco all the way down the coast of North America to Panama. Boat's in Panama right now,

00:15:03.280 and we'll be spending another probably six months on the boat this winter. But yeah,

00:15:09.560 what you said about, you know, sort of on the weekend days, using that same approach of having

00:15:15.860 a highlight and saying, you know, what's the thing that, that we want to focus on now that's going

00:15:20.700 to move us toward this goal. That's exactly what we did. I think that, I think that we were,

00:15:26.080 so I, I've kind of a maybe unconventional way of thinking about goals. And it said,

00:15:32.940 I feel like goals are risky. I think that you touched on how there's sort of these,

00:15:36.940 these abstract amorphous things. And I think that they, they create sort of a,

00:15:43.260 a feeling that we're not good enough yet because we haven't reached our goal.

00:15:48.020 And if only we reach our goal, then we'll, we'll be satisfied. Then we'll, we'll be happy

00:15:52.560 with ourselves, which, which I don't think is a great, a great way to live day to day.

00:15:57.520 I also think that they blind us to what's happening in the present. If we become so fixed on

00:16:04.280 a goal that we're working toward, we might not notice when our priorities change.

00:16:08.820 We might not follow something that comes, that appears that we enjoy doing in the meantime.

00:16:15.140 So for, for my wife and, and me, we, I wouldn't say that we made this sailing plan. It's called

00:16:24.460 cruising in the sailing world. That's the idea of, of traveling by sailboat. I wouldn't say that

00:16:29.940 we made cruising a goal until very late in the game, until, until we got to the point where like,

00:16:35.560 there was, there was a finite set of things that we needed to do to prepare the boat,

00:16:39.360 to prepare ourselves, to be ready to actually leave at a certain time. And then, you know,

00:16:43.900 we got into, you know, making spreadsheets and to-do lists and all that sort of typical stuff you do

00:16:49.060 when you're managing a big project. But, but earlier on, for me, it was really about trying to

00:16:55.320 find the, the skills or the behaviors that I wanted to develop so that I would be in a position

00:17:03.500 to go cruising, to pursue this goal and use my highlights and use my time to develop those skills

00:17:13.200 and those behaviors. And so you guys, I mean, as you said, there's different ways to pick your

00:17:17.720 highlight of the day. One could be, you know, the sense of urgency, like this has to get done,

00:17:22.700 right? In order for me to move forward at work, whatever. So that's one way to pick a highlight.

00:17:27.480 Right. And the other one is just like, also like joy and satisfaction. Like the one thing you think,

00:17:32.880 yeah, that's tricky too, because sometimes we think something will give us satisfaction and joy,

00:17:37.680 but we do it and it doesn't. But I mean, I think that's one of the nice things about highlights

00:17:41.560 instead of like, you know, one, one of the problems with goals, as you said, you kind of get fixated on

00:17:45.560 it and you get goal lock and you keep pursuing it because like, you feel like you should, but like

00:17:50.320 with the, I feel like the highlight concept, it's a little more, it's flexible. So it's like,

00:17:55.200 well, that didn't, that didn't really bring me satisfaction. All right, move on to something

00:18:00.260 else. Yeah, totally. I mean, flexibility and really like forgiveness, you know, it's sort of,

00:18:06.240 those are some of the key philosophies behind this book. You know, Jake and I being obsessed with

00:18:14.780 this idea of redesigning time of how we spend our time. We've read tons of books and blog posts and,

00:18:21.340 you know, we've read all the things about, you know, the, the 18 things you should do before 8am

00:18:26.400 and that, that, all that kind of advice that you see. And I, I just feel like so much of it is so,

00:18:34.900 so intense and so unforgiving. And so we, we think that making these changes to how you're spending your

00:18:43.000 time is, is better approached from a standpoint of flexibility and forgiveness to be able to say,

00:18:48.940 you know, I don't know what I want to be doing in five years. And I know I'm not going to completely

00:18:54.060 remake my life overnight. And I'm not going to adopt this exact set of steps that is,

00:19:01.380 is, you know, kind of being presented as a framework. But if I can start small and every day

00:19:06.380 I can try to make time for something that is important, we know that people can, can build and

00:19:12.940 those changes can compound. And, you know, Jake and I both found that those led us to places,

00:19:18.500 you know, with the, the sailing stuff and with writing that approach led us to places in our,

00:19:24.180 in our lives that we didn't necessarily plan. Those weren't necessarily goals. They weren't

00:19:28.760 things that we saw coming. I mean, another sort of mindset shift that you, that I thought was really

00:19:35.180 useful. Let's take this task of getting a boat ready to go sailing around the world. You know,

00:19:40.100 as you said, there's like all these things you have to do to get ready and the tendency,

00:19:45.280 you know, the self, you know, the productivity books to say like, you need to, you know, set a

00:19:48.880 deadline for each of these little tasks. Right. But then like, I've done that before. And what ends

00:19:53.860 up happening is like all of my tasks are overdue. I've got that. Like right now I use Todoist and I'm

00:20:00.340 like, all right, this week, this task is going to be done by this stuff. And then like, it was due two

00:20:04.640 days ago. And it's like in red saying, I need, it's, I need to get this done. You, you guys said,

00:20:10.200 instead of doing that, like having these sort of like assigned tasks for certain days, like have,

00:20:15.600 instead of like a task, like have, have a, a might, or instead of having a to-do list, have a,

00:20:20.420 a might do list. Right. So it's like you go in like, so today is boat day. I'm going to spend two

00:20:26.720 hours. Here's a list of tasks that I could possibly do. And why do you think that's so powerful and like

00:20:33.300 moving forward on those things that are really meaningful to you?

00:20:37.120 Yeah. And that's very much how I, how I plan my days, you know, ongoing. I think that what's

00:20:43.200 powerful about the might do list is that it separates the decision about what you should do

00:20:49.500 or what you could do from the act of doing it. I think that if you sit down in front of a to-do list

00:20:54.740 that is neatly organized and categorized and everything's got a priority and a deadline and

00:21:00.380 all these different things, there's, there's a, a chance, a good chance that you're not going to

00:21:05.820 end up spending time on the most important things. You might, you might knock off the easy things or

00:21:11.220 the things that are maybe the, they appear the most urgent because you put a date on them and

00:21:16.560 they're overdue, but maybe they're not actually the most important things that you should be doing.

00:21:21.820 Whereas I think if you, if you have a list, a might do list, what I call it. And before you sit

00:21:28.760 down to start working on that stuff, you, you review that and you think about what's important

00:21:34.760 to do in that time. And then you schedule it. I think that you have a much better chance of

00:21:40.080 actually spending your time on the things that are important. So I, I don't even use a to-do list

00:21:47.260 at all. I just have a note in Google keep. So it's on my computer and on my phone. It's just my,

00:21:53.780 like one big might do list and it has a couple of headings in it, but there's no like priority.

00:22:00.280 There's no dates that the calendar is really where I sort of handle, you know, the question of when

00:22:05.960 am I going to do things? But, but I, I think that that very human process of, of reviewing and

00:22:13.160 intuitively deciding here's what's important now is essential. And I think it's something that to-do

00:22:19.160 lists don't necessarily help us do. Yeah. One thing I've noticed whenever I'm working on a larger

00:22:23.420 task and I create to-do list, like as I get started working on the project, like I realized that what

00:22:30.280 I thought was urgent is no longer urgent or I need to solve this other problem first before I get to

00:22:35.680 this. So it's like, I don't know. I think the idea of a might do list gives them flexibility to,

00:22:39.980 when you actually get started, you can make adaptations. Yeah. Well, and, and it's,

00:22:44.600 it's kind of a, it's kind of a trick, right? It's like part of it is just in the framing,

00:22:49.440 you know, this idea that instead of a to-do list, it's, it's a might do list. You know, it's, it's,

00:22:54.320 I think in that spirit of, of forgiveness and flexibility that we talked about a few minutes

00:22:59.080 ago. And there's maybe, maybe that's not the most life-changing shift in thinking, but I do think

00:23:05.260 that there's something valuable about it. So we're going to be flexible with, you know, what we do

00:23:11.880 with this highlight, whatever we pick at it, whatever we pick it to be. And here's the

00:23:16.160 question. Can you, can your highlight change from day to day? Or is this something where you, it's

00:23:19.180 like you, you sit down on Sunday and here's like another typical productivity tip. You got to plan

00:23:23.800 your week on Sunday night and, you know, decide what you're going to do each day of the week.

00:23:28.820 Or is this concept a little more flexible? It's like, well, you know, today is going to be boat day or

00:23:34.860 today is going to be writing memo day or whatever. Yeah. How does that work? Yeah. So make time is

00:23:41.660 really a daily framework. So we think that the day is kind of the, the sweet spot. That's the

00:23:48.200 right size that we are capable of both thinking about in a productive way, but then actually acting

00:23:55.080 on, you know, when you create that plan for the week or, or, you know, the, the one-year plan or the

00:23:59.980 five-year plan for yourself, it's too difficult to, to predict, to know what's, what's really going

00:24:05.640 to happen, how you're going to feel, what else is going to happen to you. And so the day kind of

00:24:12.440 feels like a sweet spot. So setting highlight is a daily activity. The other steps in the,

00:24:19.840 the make time framework, laser, energize and, and reflect, which we'll, I'm sure we'll talk about.

00:24:26.180 Those are all daily activities. And yeah, the highlight can totally be, can be something different

00:24:31.580 every day. You know, you can kind of jump between one day there might be something urgent you need

00:24:35.600 to take care of. And then once you've got that off your plate, the next day you feel like you can do

00:24:39.200 something really satisfying. The end of the week rolls around and you, and you choose a joyful

00:24:44.240 highlight, something that is just going to be really fun for you. The, the kind of the twist on

00:24:49.240 that or the exception is when, when we're working on a big project, we often find it valuable to think

00:24:56.340 of sort of a, a personal sprint. So essentially choosing the same highlight every day for a week

00:25:04.120 or for longer or highlights that are thematically related. So if you're, if you're working on,

00:25:10.680 you know, creating something new, and this was the case when we were, when we were writing make time,

00:25:15.900 you know, pretty much every day with the, with a few exceptions, my highlight was about make time.

00:25:22.420 It was about writing, you know, writing a draft of the next chapter or reviewing something that

00:25:28.080 Jake had written or working on outlining a certain section, but having a sort of similar or the same

00:25:36.300 highlight day after day, I think really allows us to, to get into the groove, to get into flow in a

00:25:41.400 way that's difficult to do just, you know, within one day, but that's kind of an advanced move. That's

00:25:47.320 not, you know, that's not really like sort of the, the basic way that, that the highlight works.

00:25:52.420 Right. Well, you actually, you guys coauthored a book called Sprint as well, where you kind of,

00:25:56.300 where you talk about the system you all used at Google to, you know, get these big projects

00:26:02.680 moving forward and completed.

00:26:04.500 Yeah. So, so that book is about the five day design sprint process where a team goes from idea or

00:26:12.180 challenge to a prototype that they can test with customers in five days. And, and running those

00:26:19.580 sprints was, was really interesting for us because it was almost like a, a time management

00:26:25.340 laboratory where we got to bring all these people in and work with them and see how, see how people

00:26:31.780 reacted to changes in the defaults of how we spend our time and make tweaks and try to improve things

00:26:39.680 and see how it went. And one of the things that was, was really interesting is just the gains that you

00:26:46.180 get from focusing on the same thing for a week, instead of trying to move projects forward by,

00:26:53.640 you know, little bit and little bit when you can, excuse me, when you can sort of load all of that

00:27:01.680 knowledge and expertise about what you're working on into your, your working memory, you know, as a,

00:27:08.200 into your brain. It's not like you make, you know, five times as much progress because it's five days.

00:27:14.000 You make, you make way more, you make so much more progress because you don't have to, you don't

00:27:18.940 have the switching costs. You don't have to reload your working memory every time you try to pick up

00:27:22.600 that project again. Gotcha. So I was thinking as I was listening to you, like taking this to,

00:27:27.060 I can see how I work in your work life, right? There's a big project. You just spend five days

00:27:31.680 and every day that your highlight is going to be working on this project and moving it forward.

00:27:35.780 I was thinking in your personal life, right? Like one of the things that people try to do,

00:27:41.320 they try to do bits and pieces, like getting their house organized or their garage organized.

00:27:45.260 Yeah. So they like, you know, they spend like basically an hour every Saturday. That's all

00:27:49.820 they got. But like, maybe you just set aside, okay, this week, every night for just an hour,

00:27:55.640 our highlight is clean out and organize the garage. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, I think that like

00:28:01.540 that way of thinking about a project can be, you know, almost freeing and really,

00:28:12.340 really motivating because when you have the clarity that that's what you have decided to do,

00:28:17.360 and that's what's important, you no longer feel like you're trying to squeeze it in,

00:28:20.820 in between other stuff or kind of making that decision in real time. Like, oh, you know, I could

00:28:26.900 watch TV, but I really should clean the garage. Like when you've, when you've sort of made a plan

00:28:31.320 and said, you know, this is going to be, this is going to be my highlight is to, is to, and after

00:28:35.680 we finish dinner, we're going to go and we're going to work in the garage for an hour. I think

00:28:39.500 it allows you to, to, to look forward to that and to, to enjoy it more, even if it's something

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00:30:48.880 So we're pretty flexible with, you know, the to-do list, might-do list, but the one thing you don't

00:30:54.820 want to be flexible with on the highlight is like you set aside time for it and like you basically

00:30:59.960 protect that with your life, right?

00:31:02.100 Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So when people are getting started with this, we kind of think that

00:31:08.980 60 to 90 minutes is a good chunk of time to spend on a highlight. It's something that

00:31:15.160 most people can realistically create by adjusting their schedule and by reclaiming time from distracting

00:31:25.080 and addicting apps and devices. But it's also, it's long enough that you can really,

00:31:31.960 you can sink your teeth into it. You can kind of get in the groove. You can get into flow. You can,

00:31:37.180 you can feel like it was, it was worthwhile. It was something meaningful.

00:31:42.080 All right. So let's talk about, so we set aside, we've picked our highlight. We set aside time for it.

00:31:46.900 We're going to protect it with our life, say no to things, right? And I think, you know,

00:31:51.160 that's the hard part for people. Stuff comes up and you think, well,

00:31:53.960 it's my highlight. I'm working on the garage. I could probably do that. Just say, say I got,

00:31:59.300 I already got plans and people won't say anything. Let's talk about the, those things that distract

00:32:05.400 us, right? That can sort of, if we spend too much time on it, it can seep into our, our highlight time.

00:32:12.420 So you call these, you know, let's talk about you guys worked at Google. You call these things like

00:32:17.180 email, YouTube, even web browsers. You call these things infinity pools. Why, why is that?

00:32:22.980 Yeah. So an infinity pool is any app or service or product that has an infinite and replenishing

00:32:32.980 source of content inside of it. If you can pull to refresh or if it streams nonstop, you know,

00:32:41.460 you know, like the, the Netflix example of, of starting the next episode right after the previous

00:32:46.680 one ends, that's an infinity pool. And we, we kind of came up with that term because,

00:32:50.640 you know, there, there's always more water in the pool. You know, you can always jump back in.

00:32:55.780 It's the level is never going to go down. It's never going to go away. It's never going to be,

00:32:59.580 be empty. And, and these are really challenging. You know, these are, infinity pools are a new

00:33:05.720 invention in the history of humankind until just like 10 years ago, most things in our world were

00:33:14.320 finite and infinity pools. They really, they pull on several of the threads that make up the fabric

00:33:24.440 of who we are as humans, as you know, of how we evolved. For example, we evolved to really care

00:33:31.720 about people and stories and gossip. So social media, you know, Instagram showing photos of what

00:33:38.120 other people are doing and what, what their lives are like. That's very appealing to us.

00:33:42.760 We are naturally susceptible to distraction because if you think about a pre-industrial,

00:33:50.940 pre-agricultural world, if there's a flash in the corner of your eye, you should probably check and

00:33:56.540 look what it is. You know, it might be a tree falling or it might be a, a, a large animal. It might

00:34:02.180 be, you know, something you need to be aware of. Whereas today, most of the distractions are not

00:34:06.580 actually important. And, and we also evolved to value what psychologists call variable rewards

00:34:14.720 or random rewards. And sort of the classic example of this is a slot machine where you pull the handle

00:34:21.240 and it's really easy and low cost to pull the handle. And most times nothing happens or nothing

00:34:26.880 good happens, but on occasion, something amazing happens. There's always the chance that something

00:34:31.920 really great is going to happen when you pull that handle. And if you think about it, that's exactly

00:34:36.380 what these infinity pool apps are like. And we, we sort of evolved to, to value those things as well,

00:34:43.500 because imagine you're, you're hunting, you're gathering, you're trying to find food that you

00:34:48.940 need to survive. And, you know, some days you might go out and come back empty-handed, but every once in a

00:34:55.400 while, something great happens. Every once in a while, you, you know, you make a big kill or you come

00:35:01.780 across, you know, a bush with that's, that's full of berries or, you know, you find some ripe fruit or

00:35:07.000 something like that. And so really deep in our DNA, we've got this, this appreciation for, and this

00:35:13.040 love of these variable rewards. I mean, the other thing about infinity pools, if we're the whole goal

00:35:19.660 of make time is to have more of these moments in our life or that we remember, I think with infinity

00:35:26.020 pools, like if I look back and I think I've been using the internet for, I don't know, however long,

00:35:30.020 15, I don't know. I can't even, that's the thing. Like it's all slipped by me. It's all amorphous,

00:35:34.740 but like, I can't remember like a moment, like being on the internet and being like, I remember

00:35:39.400 when I read this Reddit thread and it was awesome. I remember when I scrolled through Instagram,

00:35:44.080 I saw this cool, like that never happens. Yeah. Right.

00:35:50.380 Yeah, that's totally true. And so I think like the combination of these, these innate human

00:35:56.740 characteristics with the, just the sheer convenience, you know, just the fact that these

00:36:01.020 things are, are in our pockets or in our, our handbags or right in front of us is just kind of

00:36:06.640 this perfect storm. It's just this, this really powerful cocktail that tends to, to suck time

00:36:15.220 away from us in a way that we don't even notice is happening. And those behaviors, one of the things

00:36:21.400 we talk about a lot in the book is this idea of, of defaults, how these behaviors are not necessarily

00:36:27.660 things we decided to do. It's not like there's some, you know, grandmaster plan for the, the best

00:36:34.900 way to, to spend your time every day. But because these infinity pool apps have become the defaults in

00:36:42.760 our world, many of us just kind of find ourselves mindlessly checking them. Or we, we pick up our

00:36:50.080 phone for a quick check of something and we end up doing something else. And so what Jake and I

00:36:56.460 have done and what we encourage people to do is to think about ways that they can change those

00:37:01.020 defaults. Right. So, I mean, some of you guys get pretty drastic, like someone was like, just remove

00:37:06.020 your email app from your phone, remove your web browser from your phone. Yeah. Yeah. And the,

00:37:11.980 they're all based on the same idea, which is that the best way to avoid distraction is to make it

00:37:17.640 more difficult to get distracted. So to remove those or sorry, to create barriers to distraction

00:37:23.700 designers like us, we've spent years and years trying to remove the barriers, trying to make

00:37:29.100 apps like email and Facebook and Twitter and YouTube as easy to get into and as easy to use

00:37:36.280 as possible. You don't have to sign in, you stay signed in. You don't have to even think to open the

00:37:41.000 app because there's a notification on your phone that reminds you about it.

00:37:43.780 And we believe that by creating barriers to distraction, you can take willpower out of the

00:37:51.900 equation. You can take self-control out of the equation. You don't need to constantly resist the

00:37:56.940 urge to check these things, but by removing apps from your phone, by signing out of websites that are

00:38:05.840 very distracting, even doing things like rearranging your living room so that the TV is not the focal point

00:38:12.320 can just make it a little bit more difficult to get sucked into these infinity pools. 0.85

00:38:17.580 And they have the result then of freeing up that time for other things, freeing up that time for

00:38:22.180 your highlight.

00:38:23.080 Right. And I think one tactic, like people are like, man, how could I ever like get by without

00:38:27.680 email on my phone or a web browser? I mean, like with email, I actually, I don't have email on my

00:38:33.180 phone anymore either. And what kind of finally realized, got me to remove is like, I've never answered

00:38:39.120 email from my phone ever. Yeah. All you do is look at it and get stressed out about all the

00:38:44.000 things you're not answering. Right. So yeah, I guess just be thoughtful about the apps you have

00:38:48.740 on your phone. You guys also give suggestions. You have a website, right? What's the website?

00:38:53.560 MakeTime? Oh yeah. For the book, the website is called maketimebook.com. That's the domain.

00:38:58.560 But you also mean you offer, you know, app suggestions that you can block, you know, certain things on your

00:39:02.760 phone and that's, that's all useful. So the idea is just figure out what your defaults are and then

00:39:07.260 rearrange those defaults to put obstruction between getting into these infinity pools.

00:39:11.700 Yeah. And, and as you, you touched on, like it can be, it can be pretty daunting or pretty extreme

00:39:17.780 to think about, wow, like no email on my phone. Like that's crazy. But we, we encourage people to

00:39:24.520 think about when it comes to infinity pool apps, we encourage people to think about what's the underlying

00:39:32.300 value or purpose for using that thing. Cause you know, we, we start using an app or service or a

00:39:39.180 tool for a reason, you know, there's, there's obviously something good about it. So for example,

00:39:43.800 you might, you might be thinking about Facebook and you might think, well, you know, I like using

00:39:48.340 Facebook because it allows me to keep in touch with my family and I can see pictures of my, you know,

00:39:53.680 my friend's kids or something like that. And, and kind of follow that thread through to the conclusion

00:40:00.380 of like, well, will I still be able to do that if I don't have it on my phone, if I don't have it at

00:40:07.600 my fingertips at every moment? And the answer in, in most cases is yes. You know, I use Twitter for a lot

00:40:15.120 of kind of work related stuff. That's how I kind of promote my work and talk to readers and answer

00:40:21.680 questions. Um, but I don't need it on my phone. I don't need to be, have access to it 24 seven to do

00:40:28.100 that. I use Twitter on my computer. I use it for a limited time each day. And when I'm done with it,

00:40:34.240 I, I log out and I close the tab and I go on with my day. Email kind of fits into that as well.

00:40:41.440 There's actually some pretty interesting research that we write about in the book where people who

00:40:47.320 spend less time on email actually get better at email. So, um, they're able to respond like the,

00:40:54.680 the time that it takes per message to respond, like gets shorter and shorter when people,

00:41:00.840 you know, just do email at the end of the day or just have like a certain chunk of time when they

00:41:05.340 do email. So I think the, the kind of the perspective that I'm talking through here is

00:41:11.800 trying to be clear about why you use these things and then ask yourself the question of whether it

00:41:17.540 needs to be always on, you know, always at your fingertips. All right. So this is one of these

00:41:22.000 tactics you guys highlights about you, you all highlight about, you know, this laser focus part

00:41:27.440 of the, the make time process. So you have your highlights and then you're going to laser in on it

00:41:32.140 where you're going to avoid distraction. So yeah, avoid these infinity pools, but you also talk about,

00:41:37.080 you know, avoiding, I mean, one of the, you talk about, I think that's a really point,

00:41:40.780 interesting point you made in the book. Cause I've fallen into this trap is avoiding getting

00:41:44.920 caught up, like spending so much time on your productivity system that you actually don't get

00:41:50.160 actual things done. Right. So it's basically avoid the fancy tools. Cause that, that can get really

00:41:55.840 exciting. That's right. Yeah. And that's another one that, uh, came directly out of my own

00:42:02.840 experience, you know, just being, you know, nerding out on like, uh, all the different to-do

00:42:08.400 list apps and the, you know, the, uh, project management apps and that kind of stuff. I think

00:42:14.360 that, that these, you know, I call them fancy tools. They, they feel like work, but they're not

00:42:21.760 actually work. You know, if you, if you have an idea for an app that you are thinking of building,

00:42:26.540 you know, instead of, you know, just grabbing a piece of paper and start sketching what the UI

00:42:31.900 looks like, you know, you think, Oh, I need to have a fancy notebook and a really nice pen.

00:42:38.040 Or if you want to start writing something, you know, you have to go and download and install like

00:42:42.380 a, you know, a distraction free writing app or like a, you know, one of these like dedicated

00:42:48.120 screenplay writing apps. And, and, and those are just like sort of a form of procrastination.

00:42:53.140 You know, there are things that I think are, are easy to get into because they're kind of fun

00:42:57.780 and they, they're the, the path of least resistance. But when we really stop and think

00:43:03.040 about it, they're not actually what we want to be doing, what we want to be spending our time on.

00:43:07.120 Right. They, they, they distract you. All right. So there's pick your highlight. You're going to laser

00:43:11.780 and there's a whole bunch of tactics, you know, and we've talked about some of them avoiding the

00:43:15.620 energy, the infinity pools. The next part of the, the make time process is energize. So this is like

00:43:22.900 basically energy management. Why do you think that's an important part of personal productivity?

00:43:27.080 I think that focusing on building energy is important because it helps us, helps us avoid

00:43:35.360 distraction in the first place and, and, and kind of make better decisions in those moments,

00:43:40.920 you know, day to day about what we're going to do next. So I've, I've definitely been in a situation

00:43:46.980 where like, you know, I wake up and maybe I stayed up too late or maybe I was like, you know, I was

00:43:52.560 watching TV too late or I, you know, I drank a little bit too much or I had like a, you know,

00:43:57.380 a huge meal or something like that. And I wake up and I feel groggy or, or sluggish or, you know,

00:44:03.080 not, not energized. And on those mornings, I'm way more likely to, you know, jump into my email or,

00:44:09.840 or open Twitter right away instead of spending time on my highlight. And, you know, I think,

00:44:15.500 I think if you've ever, you know, felt really sluggish after a big lunch, or if you've ever,

00:44:19.700 you know, felt kind of clear headed and invigorated after, after going for a run,

00:44:25.120 you can kind of, you can kind of see this connection between the energy that we create

00:44:30.700 with our bodies and how that affects the decisions and the things that we do with our brains.

00:44:35.920 Right. So basically, you know, the advice is like, basically the stuff you've been hearing your

00:44:39.580 entire life and how to live a healthy life, get like, you know, get plenty of sleep, you know,

00:44:43.780 eat right, exercise, any other tactics that you found to be very, you know, pretty useful and

00:44:49.700 energizing you.

00:44:50.820 Yeah. The, the big categories, like you're saying, are kind of the, the stuff that everybody

00:44:56.160 already knows. So, so food, exercise, sleep. And then we also think that, that finding quiet,

00:45:04.100 you know, moments of quiet away from the noise of, of modern life and spending face-to-face time

00:45:10.120 with other people. We think that these are really important ways to build energy, but, but we also

00:45:15.460 know that like this kind of advice is like, it's everywhere and everybody already knows about it.

00:45:19.940 So, so we try to translate that into really concrete, specific tactics that people can try

00:45:25.720 and that it doesn't represent, you know, some dramatically new extreme diet or some like

00:45:32.420 super intense workout program, but kind of little things that, that you can fit into your day.

00:45:38.480 Right. And also I'm, I'm, could like these things be a highlight for somebody?

00:45:43.480 It definitely could be. I mean, I think that there's a, you know, depending on what you're

00:45:48.920 into and what you like, you know, for example, cooking is, as I think a, a, an activity that

00:45:54.360 can be, it can be a highlight. It can be something that improves the, the healthfulness of the food

00:46:00.180 that you eat. And it can also be a way to, to give yourself energy by using your body, by moving

00:46:07.740 your body. I actually took a lot of inspiration from, from some of your writing, Brett about like

00:46:13.600 kind of the, the strenuous life, this idea of, of doing things, you know, of, of having a, a DIY life

00:46:21.420 instead of a remote control life, you know, when, you know, instead of ordering, ordering delivery and,

00:46:28.000 and, you know, using the laundry apps and the, you know, grocery delivery and all these things,

00:46:32.460 all these conveniences that are available, something like cooking kind of hits a few of

00:46:37.460 those principles at the same time. No. Yeah. I think that's an interesting point. We've,

00:46:41.880 we, we did a series on Winston Churchill. One of the interesting things about this guy,

00:46:45.480 he had, he had a weird schedule. Like he stayed up late, he slept in, you know, he would dictate to

00:46:51.420 his secretary while he was in his pajamas, in his bed or in his bathtub, you know, weird guy,

00:46:56.180 you know, but he worked hard. Like when he was working, he was working hard,

00:46:58.680 but for a break, instead of just taking it easy, like he would go like build a wall in his garden

00:47:06.180 or go paint. Um, and that energized him to go back to whatever else you had to do.

00:47:11.820 Totally. Yeah. I feel that as well. Like, um, I, I get a lot of satisfaction and, and frankly,

00:47:18.820 a lot of energy out of doing things the hard way, you know, kind of choosing the, the manual route,

00:47:24.340 doing things to where there, there's a clear, there is a clear sort of convenient way to,

00:47:31.540 to do the thing, but choosing the harder way, you know, walking is, is a perfect example. It

00:47:36.640 obviously, it takes longer to walk most times, but it actually, I feel like it, it actually creates

00:47:43.740 time because I'm getting energy from that activity, but I, I also have additional mental

00:47:51.640 space that is happening while I'm walking, you know, same with, with cleaning or cooking or,

00:47:58.440 or, you know, carrying something home from the store, you know, it creates kind of this,

00:48:03.800 this meditative space, this, this opportunity to, to allow ideas to emerge, to start to kind of reflect

00:48:11.960 on, on what you're doing, how you're spending your time. So yeah, for me, those sort of,

00:48:19.280 you know, hands-on almost those intentionally inconvenient approaches to everyday activities

00:48:26.580 are, are really important. No. Yeah. I've, I've noticed that like whenever I do nothing,

00:48:31.940 it always sounds appealing, but then doing nothing can often just be like exhausting. I don't know why.

00:48:38.920 So I've actually do something on my, like a break. I come back to work more energized. It's,

00:48:43.880 it's bizarre. I don't know why it works that way.

00:48:45.940 Yeah. I mean, like taking a break from work and, and, and checking, you know, Twitter is kind of

00:48:52.040 like the classic example of that. It's like, Oh, like this will be a cool break. I'll, you know,

00:48:57.420 I'll, I'll, I'll catch up on what's going on. And then you get done with it and you're like, wait,

00:49:01.300 that wasn't a break. Like I don't, I don't feel refreshed. I don't feel renewed. Um, now I need it.

00:49:06.140 Now I need a real break.

00:49:07.620 Yeah. Right. Right. A real break. All right. So, uh, you know, just basically take care of yourself

00:49:12.580 so you can be more productive when you're working on things that are important. So there's highlights

00:49:17.100 of laser energize, and then there's this reflect. What does that reflection process look like?

00:49:22.920 Yeah. So reflect might be the most important part of, of the whole thing. And the idea is that

00:49:29.920 you'll spend just a couple minutes every day thinking back on, on how your day went. What was

00:49:36.880 your highlight? Did you have time for it? And which tactics did you use? Are there things from

00:49:44.440 the book that you tried and did they work well? And if they didn't work well, what do you want to

00:49:49.260 try again tomorrow? For me, this is something that like, I've been, I've been kind of thinking

00:49:55.080 about this stuff for so long. And I've been on this, this journey for so long that I, I do a lot

00:50:00.240 of this reflection kind of intuitively. I have space in my day where I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm

00:50:07.980 walking or, or, um, you know, not actively engaged in, in work. And I'm, I'm always thinking about,

00:50:15.280 you know, just how things are going, but I know that I'm a little bit weird in that, in that way.

00:50:20.880 So at the same time, there's a lot of advice out there. I think about journaling and about stuff

00:50:27.760 like that, that can, can feel pretty overwhelming. So we're trying to offer people a very small,

00:50:35.520 very bite-sized activity that they can do to basically answer a couple of questions and put

00:50:41.460 themselves in this experimental mindset, put themselves in this way of thinking that doesn't

00:50:48.580 have perfection as a goal, doesn't have the, the perfect application of this, this 20 part system,

00:50:55.720 but just has this spirit of like, just do a little, just get a little better every day.

00:51:01.700 Just do something a little different every day and see how it goes for you.

00:51:05.520 And here's the question, like, how do you keep this up day in and day out? Cause that's the problem

00:51:09.020 with what I found with like productivity systems, right? Like, you know, get, getting things done.

00:51:13.440 For example, I did that too, back in whenever 2007, 2006 came out and it's like, yeah, this is

00:51:19.580 really cool. I went out and bought all the stuff and I did it for like two weeks. And then it's like,

00:51:23.500 no, uh, yeah, it's gonna, I got that collection of GTD stuff sitting there now. Um, so like with

00:51:31.120 this, like, how do you keep it up day in and day out?

00:51:33.720 Yeah. I mean, I think that as much as possible, it's helpful to, to try to make some of these things

00:51:42.020 automatic. So I know there's a lot of advice out there about, about creating habits and, and I'm

00:51:48.120 certainly not an expert on that, but I think to the extent that you can create habits around these

00:51:53.320 activities, that's, that's really helpful. I think even just, just shifting a mindset can really

00:51:59.320 reinforce certain behaviors. But at the same time, like I, I don't know that there is necessarily

00:52:08.340 an easy answer to that question. I think, I think part of it has to come from an external sense of

00:52:16.200 motivation, a sense that you want to change things or that you want to work toward something better.

00:52:21.820 And, and, and I think that that's one of the, one of the results of this approach to making time that

00:52:30.740 as you start to create a little bit of space every day, you start to get a clearer view of,

00:52:37.380 of where you're headed and what's important to you. For example, when my wife and I were just starting

00:52:43.340 to get into sailing and we were spending time learning about our boat and fixing up our boat and

00:52:48.020 taking short trips on the boat, you know, we didn't necessarily have some grand plan that we

00:52:54.820 were working toward, but the more time we spent on it and the more we use these techniques to create

00:53:01.000 space in our days, the stronger motivation we were able to build about what we were working toward.

00:53:08.640 And so, you know, I don't have a perfect formula for, for how to, you know, change your behavior

00:53:15.860 overnight, how to, how to make these changes stick. But I do think that starting to, to slow things

00:53:22.220 down and create a little bit of space every day is the first step. Well, John, where can people go to

00:53:27.560 learn more about the book? We already talked about make time book, right? That's right. Yeah.

00:53:30.720 Make time book.com. Great place to go just to follow everything that Jake and I are doing and

00:53:36.260 writing about is time dorks. Time dorks. So that's our newsletter. It's all about experiments 0.84

00:53:41.560 and time management. And then perhaps ironically, I would suggest that people follow me on Twitter

00:53:46.720 as well. My username is Jazzer, J-A-Z-E-R. It's when they're taking their fake break,

00:53:53.320 they can check you out. Exactly. Well, Hey, John, this has been a great conversation.

00:53:57.320 Thanks for coming on. Yeah. Thank you so much, Brad. My guest there is John Zorasky. He's the coauthor

00:54:01.720 of the book, Make Time. It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can also find out

00:54:06.060 more information about the book at his website, maketimebook.com, all one word. You can find

00:54:10.520 links to tools and free resources there. Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash make time,

00:54:16.420 where you can find links to resources, where you can delve deeper into this topic and to put it into

00:54:19.940 action. Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and

00:54:36.460 advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And if you enjoy the

00:54:40.680 show, you've gotten something out of it, I'd appreciate it if you give us a review on iTunes

00:54:44.000 or Stitcher. That helps out a lot. And if you've done that already, thank you. Please consider sharing

00:54:48.040 the show with a friend or family member who you think would get something out of it. As always,

00:54:51.540 thank you for your continued support. And until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay

00:54:55.440 manly.

The Art of Manliness - October 17, 2018

#450： How to Make Time for What Really Matters Every Day

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