The Art of Manliness

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, Brett here. We're taking a quick break. We'll be back with a new episode on Wednesday.

00:00:04.100 But in the meantime, here's a rebroadcast of podcast number 450, How to Make Time for What

00:00:08.360 Really Matters Every Day with author John Zeratsky. It's one of our most popular episodes in 2018.

00:00:13.600 If you feel like your life is just sort of a busy blur and you feel like you're not getting much

00:00:17.200 done, this episode has a lot of insights to help you. First, get more stuff, more important stuff

00:00:22.120 done. But second, more importantly, make it feel like your life is full of memorable moments.

00:00:26.560 Hope you enjoy this episode. See you on Wednesday with a new episode.

00:00:30.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. Your days seem

00:00:48.240 like a continuous blur of busyness and yet you don't seem to get much done nor remember much

00:00:52.740 about how you spend your time. I was a former employee of Google. My guest today worked on

00:00:56.200 the very apps and technology that can often suck away our time. Today, he's dedicated to

00:01:00.540 figuring out how to push back against these forces to help people take control of their

00:01:03.600 time and attention. His name is John Zeratsky and he's the co-author of the book Make Time,

00:01:07.960 How to Focus on What Matters Every Day. Today on the show, John shares how the experience of

00:01:11.900 feeling like he was missing months of his life led to him spending years experimenting with

00:01:15.620 habits and routines looking for the best ways to optimize energy, focus, and time. He then shares

00:01:20.000 the simple four-step daily framework that he developed from this research and walks us through

00:01:23.680 that system. John talks about choosing one highlight each day to ensure your most important

00:01:27.600 work gets done and that your life is full of memorable moments. He also shares how to reduce

00:01:31.200 the time you spend in waiting what he calls infinity pools, why energy management is just as important

00:01:36.060 as time management, and how reflection is essential in figuring out what you're doing is actually

00:01:40.460 working. Lots of valuable direction in this show for you to get your life on track and find

00:01:44.580 more hours and meaning of the day. After it's over, check out our show notes at

00:01:47.620 aom.is slash make time. John Zeratsky, welcome to the show. Thanks a lot for having me. So

00:02:05.200 you co-authored a book, Make Time, How to Focus on What Matters Every Day. This is interesting

00:02:10.600 because your co-author, Jake, and you, you both worked at Google, correct? Yeah, that's right.

00:02:16.740 All right. So you guys, and you also spent time designing the apps that people spend a lot of

00:02:22.440 time on, right? Gmail, YouTube, the things that people are like, oh, I need to, I need to like get

00:02:28.300 a handle on this stuff. But then you hear you guys come out the book saying, here's how to manage your

00:02:33.680 time and not be distracted by these things we help, help create. I mean, what was the impetus behind

00:02:39.280 the book? Like, did you guys have a problem with this stuff too? Yeah, definitely. So

00:02:45.460 as you pointed out, working in technology, working on these products was such an interesting

00:02:51.460 spot for us to be because on the one hand, you were working on, on apps that people find very

00:02:58.780 distracting that people struggle with. And so we're kind of on the inside and we know how these things

00:03:03.540 are made. And that, that gives us ideas for how people might make some adjustments, make some changes

00:03:09.140 to affect that relationship. But the other thing that was pretty interesting was technology in many

00:03:15.780 ways is kind of the ground zero or the epicenter for a lot of what's, what's crazy about our work

00:03:23.900 cultures and about our, the defaults that we all operate under. So, you know, big tech companies,

00:03:29.960 lots of meetings, lots of email, there's instant messaging, there's an expectation that you're going to

00:03:34.760 be online, you're going to be plugged in, you're going to be responsive. So we definitely, we both

00:03:39.920 struggled working in that environment to feel like we were, you know, using our energy and our time

00:03:45.900 while at work, but also having something left over for ourselves. Yeah. I mean, you make the point,

00:03:50.840 like these apps, like they, they help, they definitely help our lives, right? They improve our lives.

00:03:55.180 But if you let, you have to learn how to manage it and take control of instead of them controlling you,

00:04:00.020 let's talk about, you had this moment, this epiphany, right? You were, you were working

00:04:05.320 and you felt like you were just like missing out, like on months of your life, right? Like

00:04:10.700 you didn't realize that like three months had passed and you'd like, you couldn't remember like

00:04:14.960 what happened during those three months. Tell us about that. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe to put that in

00:04:20.220 context, we can go back to 2005 when I graduated from college and I was lucky enough to get a job at a

00:04:28.560 tech startup in Chicago called FeedBurner. And I'd been in school and I had started a little web

00:04:34.420 design business. So, you know, I had sort of developed some habits and some ways of making

00:04:38.600 sure I was, I was productive. I was getting things done, but I was dropped into this company in this

00:04:43.960 team that was very high performing. It was kind of the classic ideal of a tech startup. You know,

00:04:49.860 it was, it was hard work, hustle, long hours, you know, people were, were super smart,

00:04:54.660 super talented and I wanted to thrive in that environment. I wanted to make the most of that

00:05:01.140 opportunity. So I got really obsessed with productivity. And when I say productivity,

00:05:06.220 I mean it in kind of the, the sense of trying to be as optimized and efficient and, and, you know,

00:05:13.180 leave no scrap of time unused. So I, I became obsessed with the book, getting things done.

00:05:20.040 And that was sort of like my Bible and I had the filing system and the to-do lists. And I had the

00:05:24.660 stack of note cards that I carried with me at all times. And, and to a certain extent that worked,

00:05:30.660 but I, but I always felt like there had to be a better way. I felt like being productive was good,

00:05:37.720 but it often just kind of made me feel like a machine, you know, just sort of like cranking

00:05:43.160 through these endless lists of tasks I needed to do. In 2007, Feedburner was bought by Google.

00:05:50.140 And so then I was, I was working at Google and life was, was really good. Like I, you know,

00:05:56.920 you had this great job. I had a great girlfriend who's now my wife. We had just moved into a new

00:06:02.040 place in Chicago. But like you said, I, I woke up one day with kind of this feeling that time was

00:06:08.260 just slipping away from me. And I started to try to figure out what was going on. And I realized that

00:06:16.180 I didn't have anything of substance going on day to day that I could sort of hold on to.

00:06:23.100 I was in this productivity mindset of just cranking through, going to the meetings,

00:06:28.420 answering the emails, getting things done. But it was all kind of at this consistent level of these,

00:06:33.400 you know, small tasks. And it just led to this feeling that time was, was slipping away.

00:06:38.260 Right. And then, I mean, I think I've, we've all experienced that. And I, the way I kind of

00:06:43.920 described it, the way I've experienced it is that I remember as a kid, I had these memories from like

00:06:48.280 being a kid where I just like, like these moments, right. That they were really mundane, but for

00:06:53.480 whatever reason they stuck with me. And then as an adult, I found like I got fewer of those,

00:06:58.680 right. Because you do this, you do the same thing day in and day out and everything just sort of

00:07:03.420 bleeds together. Yeah. I mean, I think that our days, you know, living as, as professionals in

00:07:09.480 the 21st century, I think that our days tend to be made up of, of mostly small kind of inconsequential

00:07:16.440 tasks, you know, things that happen. And the process of forming memories, it, it happens

00:07:23.280 automatically. You know, it just sort of, some things might stick out, some things might not.

00:07:28.340 But when, when, when nothing is sort of that big of a deal, I think it's difficult to create those

00:07:35.120 memories that, that make you feel like you're, you're living in time instead of just like, you

00:07:42.300 know, seeing time move by. I, I read around that time when I was struggling, this was like 2008. I,

00:07:48.340 I read a book called Wrapped by Winifred Gallagher. It was a really incredible book that has stuck with

00:07:55.340 me for a long time. And she makes the argument that your experience of life is not necessarily

00:08:03.700 what happens to you. It's what you pay attention to. And that was a big turning point for me. I

00:08:10.280 realized that if I started to intentionally build my days around the things that I wanted to remember,

00:08:17.960 then I could choose to pay attention to those. And that would, that would have the effect of sort of

00:08:23.920 slowing down the passage of time. Very much like, you know, being a kid and, and just having those,

00:08:28.960 those, those summers that went on and on and those amazing memories from, from those days.

00:08:34.200 Yeah. So, okay. The solution to this was this thing you called highlights. So what is a highlight?

00:08:39.940 Yeah. So a highlight is the one activity or thing that you want to prioritize and protect in your day.

00:08:48.080 So the idea is that it's not the only thing you'll do, you know, and it's not like,

00:08:52.940 you know, I, I don't think I'm unrealistic, you know, I don't want to encourage people to like,

00:08:57.680 you know, have this expectation that they can completely clear their calendar, clear their day.

00:09:01.540 But by choosing a highlight, you can kind of build your day around it. You can make sure that no matter

00:09:07.840 what else happens, you made time for that one thing. And, and you can, you can feel like that time

00:09:14.280 was well spent. So I mean, what's an example of that? I mean, is this like, are the highlights

00:09:18.380 like work related or are they like something that just makes your life meaningful that you want to

00:09:22.780 do? Yeah. For me, they're, they're all of the above. They, they tend to be more work related stuff

00:09:28.860 for me. You know, like I often spend time on my highlight first thing in the morning, right after

00:09:34.740 I wake up, I went through this, this process of becoming a morning person about five, six years ago.

00:09:41.400 So I love to wake up, make some coffee and work on my highlight, which is usually

00:09:45.920 writing something or doing some kind of design work or something that's related to work.

00:09:51.540 But in the book, we talk about a few different kind of approaches for coming up with your highlight.

00:09:57.880 And what I described is, I think, kind of an example of, of satisfaction, you know, looking at

00:10:03.560 what task or activity is going to be really satisfying. It's not necessarily the most urgent thing,

00:10:08.520 but it's the thing that it's, it's going to be a good chunk of work that you, you want to do and

00:10:13.420 you feel good about doing it. But sometimes my highlight is something that needs to get done,

00:10:18.220 you know, something that's, that's urgent. And that's another strategy. And, and a lot of times,

00:10:22.800 you know, like on Saturday, my wife and I are, we just moved to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and we're taking

00:10:28.640 a food tour. That's sort of a, a tour of Milwaukee for Milwaukeeans. And so I know that on Saturday,

00:10:35.400 like, that's going to be my highlight, like, that's going to be the thing. It's, it's not something

00:10:39.400 I have to get done. It's not something productive, but it's something that I want to do. And I'm going

00:10:43.760 to kind of build my day around really enjoying and savoring that.

00:10:47.980 So if you, so as long as you accomplish your highlight, like that day was a win, even if you

00:10:51.620 didn't get much done else.

00:10:54.060 That's, I mean, that's, that's my take. You know, I think there's always, there's always bad stuff that

00:10:59.200 can happen to us, but my experience, and I think experience that's backed up by some research and,

00:11:07.640 and by experience of experiences of other people, people who have, who have read about this stuff,

00:11:12.800 as we've been writing about it before the book, you know, just on, on the web, it seems to be

00:11:17.580 the case that when you build your days around one thing that you want to make time for time moves

00:11:25.160 more slowly and you feel better about the way you spent that time.

00:11:29.340 So let's talk about how you establish these highlights. Cause like, I think people have

00:11:33.400 heard the idea of, you know, stop, you know, people establish goals for themselves, but usually goals

00:11:36.900 are often abstract and too far away in the future. It's like, well, save for retirement or like,

00:11:41.840 I'm going to go on a vacation. Totally. So how does a highlight differ from a goal in that regard?

00:11:47.800 Yeah. I mean, a highlight is really short term. It's, it's something that you want to do that day.

00:11:52.900 It's very much a daily process. And I think Jake and I kind of have this, this hypothesis that most

00:12:03.340 advice about time management and self-help kind of stuff is, is way too intimidating.

00:12:10.180 You know, it was really big. It's like, it's like, you know, what do you want your life to be?

00:12:15.200 You know, where do you want to be in five years? You know, it's, it's really grand. And I think when

00:12:19.060 you're, when you're feeling busy and you're feeling distracted and you're feeling like you're,

00:12:23.220 you're on autopilot and like the days are sort of flying by, trying to break from that and all

00:12:30.780 of a sudden shift into thinking about these grand plans, I think is, is pretty tough. It's pretty

00:12:36.360 unrealistic. So our belief is that if you can start small, you can start by identifying what you want to

00:12:44.620 do that day, the thing you want to make time for, and then starting to, to reclaim a little bit of

00:12:51.640 the time that you might otherwise lose to, to your smartphone, social media, meetings, email,

00:12:59.600 whatever, a lot of these default behaviors. If you can start to reclaim a little bit of that time,

00:13:04.960 it can build from there. You'll have a little bit more space, a little bit more time to think

00:13:09.580 about what's important to you. You'll recognize the things that you enjoy doing, the things that

00:13:15.120 are motivating to you, that create that clarity and sense of purpose around your time. And those

00:13:20.180 might build into something really grand and big. They might build into, you know, some trip or a

00:13:25.740 career change or retirement, but they might not. They might just be something that makes your existing

00:13:32.600 life a little bit better, a little bit slower, a little bit, you know, more joyful.

00:13:37.220 Well, one example you give in the book of a highlight was you and your wife built this boat

00:13:42.240 and wanted to go sailing. So that's like a huge goal. So like, did you just, did you just break

00:13:48.820 it down? Like, you know, you decided Saturday is going to be boat day. I'm going to make at least

00:13:52.720 two hours for boat days. Is that how that worked?

00:13:55.260 Kind of. Yeah. And just to make sure that I'm not getting any undue credit, we did not build a boat.

00:13:59.700 Okay. You had to repair it though, right?

00:14:01.780 Yeah. We, we bought an old boat and then we ended up selling that one and getting a different boat. And,

00:14:06.240 and yeah, we, we ultimately ended up spending about eight months on the boat. We sailed from San

00:14:11.200 Francisco all the way down the coast of North America to Panama, boats in Panama right now,

00:14:16.480 and we'll be spending another probably six months on the boat this winter. But yeah, what you said

00:14:23.540 about, you know, sort of on the weekend days using that same approach of having a highlight and saying,

00:14:30.260 you know, what's the thing that, that we want to focus on now that's going to move us toward this

00:14:34.840 goal. That's exactly what we did. I think that, I think that we were, so I, I've kind of a,

00:14:41.360 maybe unconventional way of thinking about goals. And it said, I feel like goals are risky.

00:14:47.500 I think that you touched on how there's sort of these, these abstract amorphous things.

00:14:53.000 And I think that they, they create sort of a, a feeling that we're not good enough yet

00:14:59.600 because we haven't reached our goal. And if only we reach our goal, then we'll, we'll be satisfied.

00:15:04.620 Then we'll, we'll be happy with ourselves, which, which I don't think is a great, a great way to live

00:15:09.420 day to day. I also think that they blind us to what's happening in the present. If we become so fixed

00:15:17.020 on a goal that we're working toward, we might not notice when our priorities change. We might not

00:15:22.720 follow something that comes, that appears that we enjoy doing in the meantime. So for, for my wife

00:15:30.840 and me, we, I wouldn't say that we made this sailing plan. It's called cruising in the sailing

00:15:38.620 world. That's the idea of, of traveling by sailboat. I wouldn't say that we made cruising a goal until

00:15:45.140 very late in the game, until, until we got to the point where like there was, there was a finite set

00:15:50.420 of things that we needed to do to prepare the boat, to prepare ourselves, to be ready to actually leave

00:15:54.920 at a certain time. And then, you know, we got into, you know, making spreadsheets and to-do lists and all

00:16:00.720 the sort of typical stuff you do when you're managing a big project. But, but earlier on, for me, it was

00:16:06.380 really about trying to find the, the skills or the behaviors that I wanted to develop so that I would

00:16:15.540 be in a position to go cruising, to pursue this goal and use my highlights and use my time to develop

00:16:25.840 those skills and those behaviors. And so you guys, I mean, as you said, there's different ways to pick

00:16:30.780 your highlight of the day. One could be, you know, the sense of urgency, like this has to get done,

00:16:35.920 right? In order for me to move forward at work, whatever. So that's one way to pick a highlight.

00:16:40.620 Right. And the other one is just like, also like joy and satisfaction. Like the one thing you think.

00:16:45.940 Yeah. That's tricky too, because sometimes we think something will give us satisfaction and joy,

00:16:50.920 but we do it and it doesn't. But I mean, I think that's one of the nice things about highlights

00:16:54.760 instead of like, you know, one of the problems with goals, as you said, you kind of get fixated on it.

00:16:59.100 You get goal lock and you keep pursuing it because like, you feel like you should, but like with the,

00:17:03.880 I feel like the highlight concept, it's a little more, it's flexible. So it's like, well,

00:17:08.720 yeah, that didn't, that didn't really bring me satisfaction. All right, move on to something

00:17:13.480 else. Yeah, totally. I mean, flexibility and really like forgiveness, you know, it's sort of,

00:17:19.440 those are some of the key philosophies behind this book. You know, Jake and I being obsessed with

00:17:28.000 this idea of redesigning time of how we spend our time. We've read tons of books and blog posts and,

00:17:34.540 you know, we've read all the things about, you know, the 18 things you should do before 8am and

00:17:39.940 all that kind of advice that you see. And I just feel like so much of it is so intense and so

00:17:49.900 unforgiving. And so we think that making these changes to how you're spending your time is better

00:17:57.540 approached from a standpoint of flexibility and forgiveness to be able to say, you know,

00:18:02.660 I don't know what I want to be doing in five years. And I know I'm not going to completely

00:18:07.260 remake my life overnight. And I'm not going to adopt this exact set of steps that is,

00:18:14.360 is, you know, kind of being presented as a framework. But if I can start small and every

00:18:19.240 day I can try to make time for something that is important, we know that people can, can build and

00:18:26.160 those changes can compound. And, you know, Jake and I both found that those led us to places,

00:18:31.700 you know, with the, the sailing stuff and with writing that approach led us to places in our,

00:18:37.380 in our lives that we didn't necessarily plan. Those weren't necessarily goals. They weren't

00:18:41.960 things that we saw coming. I mean, another sort of mindset shift that you, that I thought was really

00:18:48.380 useful. Let's take this task of getting a boat ready to go sailing around the world. You know,

00:18:53.300 as you said, there's like all these things you have to do to get ready. And the tendency, you know,

00:18:58.560 the self, you know, the productivity books to say like, you need to, you know, set a deadline for

00:19:02.680 each of these little tasks. Right. But then like, I've done that before. And what ends up happening

00:19:07.560 is like all of my tasks are overdue. I've got that. Like right now I use Todoist and I'm like,

00:19:13.680 all right, this week, this task is going to be done by this stuff. And then like, it was due two days

00:19:18.060 ago. And it's like in red saying, I need, it's, I need to get this done. You, you guys said,

00:19:23.400 instead of doing that, like having these sort of like sign tasks for certain days, like have,

00:19:28.920 instead of like a task, like have, have a, a might, or instead of having a to-do list, have a,

00:19:33.620 a might do list. Right. So it's like you go in like, so today is boat day. I'm going to spend two

00:19:39.920 hours. Here's a list of tasks that I could possibly do. And why do you think that's so powerful

00:19:45.880 and like moving forward on those things that are really meaningful to you?

00:19:50.340 Yeah. And that's very much how I, how I plan my days, you know, ongoing. I think that what's

00:19:56.400 powerful about the might do list is that it separates the decision about what you should do

00:20:02.720 or what you could do from the act of doing it. I think that if you sit down in front of a to-do list

00:20:07.960 that is neatly organized and categorized and everything's got a priority and a deadline and

00:20:13.600 all these different things, there's, there's a chance, a good chance that you're not going to

00:20:19.020 end up spending time on the most important things. You might, you might knock off the easy things or

00:20:24.440 the things that are maybe the, they appear the most urgent because you put a date on them and

00:20:29.760 they're overdue, but maybe they're not actually the most important things that you should be doing.

00:20:35.040 Whereas I think if you, if you have a list, a might do list, what I call it. And before you sit down

00:20:42.200 to start working on that stuff, you, you review that and you think about what's important to do

00:20:48.380 in that time. And then you schedule it. I think that you have a much better chance of actually

00:20:53.780 spending your time on the things that are important. So I, I don't even use a to-do list at all. I just

00:21:01.280 have a note in Google keep. So it's on my computer and on my phone. It's just my, like one big might

00:21:08.360 do list. And it has a couple of headings in it, but there's no like priority. There's no dates that

00:21:15.120 the calendar is really where I sort of handle, you know, the question of when am I going to do things?

00:21:20.460 But, but I, I think that that very human process of, of reviewing and intuitively deciding here's

00:21:28.960 what's important now is essential. And I think it's something that to-do lists don't necessarily help

00:21:33.820 us do. Yeah. One thing I've noticed whenever I'm working on a larger task and I create to-do

00:21:38.220 lists, like as I get started working on the project, like I realized that what I thought

00:21:43.820 was urgent is no longer urgent, or I need to solve this other problem first before I get to this. So

00:21:49.480 it's like, I don't know. I think the idea of a might do list gives them flexibility to when you

00:21:53.360 actually get started, you can make adaptations. Yeah. Well, and, and it's, it's kind of a,

00:21:59.000 it's kind of a trick, right? It's like part of it is just in the framing, you know, this idea that

00:22:03.740 instead of a to-do list, it's, it's a might do list, you know, it's, it's, I think in that spirit

00:22:08.780 of, of forgiveness and flexibility that we talked about a few minutes ago. And there's maybe, maybe

00:22:14.340 that's not the most life-changing shift in thinking, but I do think that there's something

00:22:19.720 valuable about it. We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:22:23.120 And now back to the show. So we're going to be flexible with, you know, what we do with this

00:22:30.960 highlight, whatever we pick at it, whatever we pick it to be. And here's the question. Can you,

00:22:34.840 can your highlight change from day to day? Or is this something where you'd like you, you sit down

00:22:38.840 on Sunday and here's like another typical productivity tip. You got to plan your week on

00:22:42.740 Sunday night and, you know, decide what you're going to do each day of the week. Or is this concept

00:22:48.560 a little more flexible? It's like, well, you know, today is going to be boat day or

00:22:53.060 today. It's going to be writing memo day or whatever. Yeah. How does that work?

00:22:57.800 Yeah. So make time is really a daily framework. So we think that the day is kind of the sweet

00:23:05.600 spot. That's the right size that we are capable of both thinking about in a productive way,

00:23:12.160 but then actually acting on, you know, when you create that plan for the week or, or, you

00:23:16.540 know, the, the one year plan or the five year plan for yourself, it's too difficult to,

00:23:21.200 to predict, to know what's, what's really going to happen, how you're going to feel,

00:23:25.000 what else is going to happen to you. And so the day kind of feels like a sweet spot.

00:23:32.500 So setting highlight is a daily activity. The other steps in the make time framework,

00:23:39.880 laser, energize and, and reflect, which we'll, I'm sure we'll talk about. Those are all

00:23:44.960 daily activities. And yeah, the highlight can totally be, can be something different every day.

00:23:50.280 You know, you can kind of jump between one day, there might be something urgent you need to take

00:23:54.060 care of. And then once you've got that off your plate, the next day, you feel like you can do

00:23:57.360 something really satisfying. The end of the week rolls around and you, and you choose a joyful

00:24:02.440 highlight, something that is just going to be really fun for you. The, the kind of the twist on

00:24:07.420 that or the exception is when, when we're working on a big project, we often find it valuable to think

00:24:14.520 of sort of a, a personal sprint. So essentially choosing the same highlight every day for a week

00:24:22.300 or for longer or highlights that are thematically related. So if you're, if you're working on,

00:24:28.860 you know, creating something new, and this was the case when we were, when we were writing make time,

00:24:34.080 you know, pretty much every day with the, with a few exceptions, my highlight was about make time.

00:24:40.600 It was about writing, you know, writing a draft of the next chapter or reviewing something that

00:24:46.260 Jake had written or working on outlining a certain section, but having a sort of similar or the same

00:24:54.460 highlight day after day, I think really allows us to, to get into the groove, to get into flow

00:24:59.080 in a way that's difficult to do just, you know, within one day, but that's kind of an advanced move.

00:25:05.240 That's not, you know, that's not really like sort of the, the basic way that, that the highlight works.

00:25:10.700 Right. When you actually, you guys coauthored a book called Sprint as well, where you kind of,

00:25:14.720 where you talk about the system you all used at Google to, you know, get these big projects

00:25:20.860 moving forward and completed.

00:25:22.660 Yeah. So, so that book is about the five day design sprint process where a team goes from idea

00:25:29.700 or challenge to a prototype that they can test with customers in five days. And, and running those

00:25:37.740 sprints was, was really interesting for us because it was almost like a, a time management laboratory

00:25:44.020 where we got to bring all these people in and work with them and see how, see how people reacted

00:25:50.860 to changes in the defaults of how we spend our time and make tweaks and try to improve things and,

00:25:58.100 and see how it went. And one of the things that was, was really interesting is just the gains that

00:26:04.220 you get from focusing on the same thing for a week, instead of trying to move projects forward by,

00:26:11.920 you know, little bit and little bit when you can, excuse me, when you can sort of load all of that

00:26:19.860 knowledge and expertise about what you're working on into your, your working memory, you know, as a,

00:26:26.380 into your brain. It's not like you make, you know, five times as much progress. Cause it's five days

00:26:32.180 you make, you make way more, you make so much more progress because you don't have to, you don't have

00:26:37.240 the switching costs. You don't have to reload your working memory every time you try to pick up that

00:26:40.940 project again. Gotcha. So I was thinking as I was listening to you, like taking this to, I can see

00:26:45.500 how I work in your work life, right? There's a big project. You just spend five days and every day

00:26:51.020 that your highlight is going to be working on this project and moving it forward. I was thinking in your

00:26:54.680 personal life, right? Like one of the things that people try to do, they try to do bits and pieces,

00:27:00.600 like getting their house organized or their garage organized. Yeah. So they like, you know,

00:27:04.400 they spend like basically an hour every Saturday. That's all they got. But like, maybe you just set

00:27:09.720 aside, okay, this week, every night for just an hour, our highlight is clean out and organize the garage.

00:27:16.680 Yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, I think that like that way of, that way of thinking about a project

00:27:25.480 can be, you know, almost freeing and, and really, really motivating because when you have the clarity

00:27:33.460 that that's what you have decided to do and that's what's important, you no longer feel like you're

00:27:37.980 trying to squeeze it in, in between other stuff or, or kind of making that decision in real time.

00:27:43.780 Like, Oh, you know, I could watch TV, but I really should clean the garage. Like when you've,

00:27:48.120 when you've sort of made a plan and said, you know, this is going to be, this is going to be

00:27:51.580 my highlight is to, is to, and after we finish dinner, we're going to go and we're going to

00:27:55.880 work in the garage for an hour. I think it allows you to, to, to look forward to that and to,

00:28:00.740 to enjoy it more, even if it's something that's, you know, not really all that fun.

00:28:05.320 So we're pretty flexible with, you know, the to-do list, my do list. But the one thing you

00:28:10.940 don't want to be flexible with on the highlight is like you set aside time for it and like

00:28:15.720 you basically protect that with your life. Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So, so when

00:28:21.880 people are getting started with this, we kind of think that 60 to 90 minutes is a good chunk

00:28:28.980 of time to spend on a highlight. It's something that most people can realistically create by

00:28:35.600 adjusting their schedule and by reclaiming time from distracting and addicting apps and devices.

00:28:44.920 But it's also, it's long enough that you can really, you can sink your teeth into it. You can

00:28:50.600 kind of get in the groove, you can get into flow, you can, you can feel like it was, it was worthwhile.

00:28:56.600 It was something meaningful. All right. So let's talk about, so we set aside, we've picked our

00:29:01.820 highlight, we set aside time for it. We're going to protect it with our life, say no to

00:29:05.580 things. Right. And I think, you know, that's the hard part for people stuff comes up and

00:29:09.740 you think, well, it's my highlight. I'm working on the garage. I could probably do that. Just

00:29:14.240 say, say I got, I already got plans and people won't say anything. Let's talk about the, those

00:29:20.240 things that distract us, right. That can sort of, if we spend too much time on it, it can seep

00:29:26.660 into our, our highlight time. So you call these, you know, let's talk about you guys

00:29:31.100 worked at Google. You call these things like email, YouTube, even web browsers. You call

00:29:36.960 these things infinity pools. Why, why is that?

00:29:39.820 Yeah. So an infinity pool is any app or service or product that has an infinite and replenishing

00:29:49.280 source of content inside of it. If you can pull to refresh or if it streams,

00:29:56.080 streams nonstop, you know, you know, like the, the Netflix example of, of starting the next

00:30:00.920 episode right after the previous one ends, that's an infinity pool. And we kind of came

00:30:05.940 up with that term because, you know, there, there's always more water in the pool. You

00:30:09.940 know, you can always jump back in. It's the level is never going to go down. It's never

00:30:14.300 going to go away. It's never going to be, be empty. And, and these are really challenging.

00:30:19.320 You know, these are infinity pools are a new invention in the history of humankind until

00:30:26.080 just like 10 years ago, most things in our world were finite and infinity pools. They

00:30:33.580 really, they pull on several of the threads that make up the fabric of who we are as humans,

00:30:43.060 as you know, of how we evolved. For example, we evolved to really care about people and stories

00:30:49.720 and gossip. So social media, you know, Instagram showing photos of what other people are doing and,

00:30:55.500 and, and what, what their lives are like. That's very appealing to us. We are naturally susceptible

00:31:01.500 to distraction because if you think about a pre-industrial, pre-agricultural world,

00:31:08.340 if there's a flash in the corner of your eye, you should probably check and look what it is.

00:31:13.740 You know, it might be a tree falling, or it might be a, a large animal. It might be, you know,

00:31:18.980 something you need to be aware of. Whereas today, most of the distractions are not actually important.

00:31:24.680 And, and we also evolved to value what psychologists call variable rewards or random rewards. And sort of

00:31:33.420 the classic example of this is a slot machine where you pull the handle and it's really easy and low

00:31:39.640 cost to pull the handle. And most times nothing happens or nothing good happens, but on occasion,

00:31:45.700 something amazing happens. There's always the chance that something really great is going to happen when

00:31:49.900 you pull that handle. And if you think about it, that's exactly what these infinity pool apps are like.

00:31:55.820 And we, we sort of evolved to, to value those things as well, because imagine you're, you're hunting,

00:32:02.460 you're gathering, you're trying to find food that you need to survive. And, you know, some days you

00:32:08.620 might go out and come back empty-handed, but every once in a while, something great happens. Every once

00:32:13.940 in a while, you, you know, you make a big kill or you come across, uh, you know, a bush with that's,

00:32:20.920 that's full of berries or, you know, you find some ripe fruit or something like that.

00:32:24.060 And so really deep in our DNA, we've got this, this appreciation for, and this love of these variable

00:32:31.080 rewards.

00:32:32.160 And I mean, the other thing about infinity pools, if we're the whole goal of make time is to have more of these

00:32:38.320 moments in our life or that we remember, I think with infinity pools, like if I look back and I think I've

00:32:44.620 been using the internet for, I don't know, however long, 15, I don't know. I can't even, that's the thing.

00:32:48.980 Like it's all slipped by me. It's all amorphous, but like, I can't remember like a moment, like being on the

00:32:53.980 internet and being like, I, I remember when I read this Reddit thread and it was awesome. I remember

00:32:59.240 when I scrolled through Instagram, I saw this cool, like that never happens. Yeah. Right.

00:33:06.700 Yeah, that's totally true. And so I think like the combination of these, these innate human

00:33:13.040 characteristics with the, just the sheer convenience, you know, just the fact that these

00:33:17.320 things are, are in our pockets or in our, our handbags or right in front of us is just kind of

00:33:22.960 this perfect storm. It's just this, this really powerful cocktail that tends to, to suck time

00:33:31.540 away from us in a way that we don't even notice is happening. And those behaviors, one of the things

00:33:37.720 we talk about a lot in the book is this idea of, of defaults, how these behaviors are not necessarily

00:33:44.160 things we decided to do. It's not like there's some, you know, grandmaster plan for the, the best

00:33:51.220 way to, to spend your time every day. But because these infinity pool apps have become the defaults

00:33:59.000 in our world, many of us just kind of find ourselves mindlessly checking them, or we, we pick up our

00:34:06.400 phone for a quick check of something and we end up doing something else. And so what Jake and I have done

00:34:13.100 and what we encourage people to do is to think about ways that they can change those defaults.

00:34:18.200 Right. So, I mean, some of you guys get pretty drastic, like someone was like, just remove your

00:34:22.500 email app from your phone, remove your web browser from your phone.

00:34:26.160 Yeah. Yeah. And the, they're all based on the same idea, which is that the best way

00:34:30.780 to avoid distraction is to make it more difficult to get distracted. So to remove those, or sorry,

00:34:38.280 to create barriers to distraction, designers like us, we've spent years and years trying to remove

00:34:44.280 the barriers, trying to make apps like email and Facebook and Twitter and YouTube as easy to get

00:34:50.900 into and as easy to use as possible. You don't have to sign in, you stay signed in. You don't have to

00:34:56.080 even think to open the app because there's a notification on your phone that reminds you about it.

00:35:00.100 And we believe that by creating barriers to distraction, you can take willpower out of

00:35:08.120 the equation. You can take self-control out of the equation. You don't need to constantly resist

00:35:13.040 the urge to check these things, but by removing apps from your phone, by signing out of websites that

00:35:22.040 are very distracting, even doing things like rearranging your living room so that the TV is not the focal

00:35:28.280 point can just make it a little bit more difficult to get sucked into these infinity pools. And they

00:35:34.160 have the result then of freeing up that time for other things, freeing, freeing up that time for

00:35:38.480 your highlight. Right. And I think one tactic, like people are like, man, how could I ever like get by

00:35:43.660 without email on my phone or a web browser? I mean, like with email, I actually, I don't have email

00:35:49.220 on my phone anymore either. And what kind of finally realized that got me to remove is like, I've never

00:35:54.960 answered email from my phone ever. Yeah. All you do is look at it and get stressed out about all the

00:36:00.320 things you're not answering. Right. So yeah, I guess just be thoughtful about the apps you have on

00:36:05.160 your phone. You guys also give suggestions. You have a website, right? What's the website? MakeTime?

00:36:10.300 Oh yeah. For the book, the website is called maketimebook.com. That's the domain.

00:36:14.880 But you also mean you offer, you know, app suggestions that you can block, you know, certain things on your

00:36:19.080 phone. And that's, that's all useful. So the idea is just figure out what your defaults are and then

00:36:23.560 rearrange those defaults to put obstruction between getting into these infinity pools.

00:36:28.020 Yeah. And, and as you, you touched on, like it can be, it can be pretty daunting or pretty extreme

00:36:34.100 to think about, wow, like no email on my phone. Like that's crazy. But we, we encourage people to

00:36:40.840 think about when it comes to infinity pool apps, we encourage people to think about what's the underlying

00:36:48.640 value or purpose for using that thing. Cause you know, we, we start using an app or service or a

00:36:55.500 tool for a reason, you know, there's, there's obviously something good about it. So for example,

00:37:00.120 you might, you might be thinking about Facebook and you might think, well, you know, I like using

00:37:04.640 Facebook because it allows me to keep in touch with my family and I can see pictures of my, you know,

00:37:10.240 my friend's kids or something like that. And, and kind of follow that thread through to the,

00:37:15.940 the conclusion of like, well, will I still be able to do that if I don't have it on my phone?

00:37:22.540 If I don't have it at my fingertips at every moment? And the answer in, in most cases is yes.

00:37:28.580 You know, I use Twitter for a lot of kind of work related stuff. That's how I kind of promote my work

00:37:35.760 and talk to readers and answer questions. But I don't need it on my phone. I don't need to be,

00:37:42.000 have access to it 24 seven to do that. I use Twitter on my computer. I use it for a limited

00:37:48.060 time each day. And when I'm done with it, I, I log out and I close the tab and I go on with my day.

00:37:54.780 Email kind of fits into that as well. There's actually some pretty interesting research that we

00:38:00.040 write about in the book where people who spend less time on email actually get better at email.

00:38:07.900 So, um, they're able to respond like the, the time that it takes per message to respond,

00:38:14.300 like gets shorter and shorter when people, you know, just do email at the end of the day or just

00:38:19.980 have like a certain chunk of time when they do email. So I think the, the kind of the perspective

00:38:26.240 that I'm talking through here is trying to be clear about why you use these things and then ask

00:38:32.260 yourself the question of whether it needs to be always on, you know, always at your fingertips.

00:38:37.080 All right. So this is one of these tactics you guys highlights about you, you all highlight about,

00:38:41.460 you know, this laser focus part of the, the make time process. You have your highlights

00:38:46.360 and then you're going to laser in on it where you're going to avoid distractions. So yeah,

00:38:50.560 avoid these infinity pools, but you also talk about, you know, avoiding, I mean, one of the,

00:38:55.860 you talk, I think that's a really point, interesting point you made in the book. Cause I've fallen

00:38:58.780 in this trap is avoiding getting caught up, like spending so much time on your productivity

00:39:04.320 system that you actually don't get actual things done. Right. So that's basically avoid the fancy

00:39:10.720 tools. Cause that, that can get really exciting. That's right. Yeah. And that's another one that

00:39:15.800 came directly out of my own experience, you know, just being, you know, nerding out on like

00:39:23.380 all the different to-do list apps and the, you know, the project management apps and that kind of stuff.

00:39:29.980 I think that, that these, you know, I call them fancy tools. They, they feel like work,

00:39:37.480 but they're not actually work. You know, if you, if you have an idea for an app that you are thinking

00:39:41.880 of building, you know, instead of, you know, just grabbing a piece of paper and start sketching what

00:39:47.840 the UI looks like, you know, you think, Oh, I need to have a fancy notebook and a really nice pen.

00:39:54.320 Or if you want to start writing something, you know, you have to go and download and install like a,

00:39:58.960 you know, a distraction free writing app or like a, you know, one of these like dedicated

00:40:04.440 screenplay writing apps. And, and, and those are just like sort of a form of procrastination.

00:40:09.640 You know, there are things that I think are, are easy to get into because they're kind of fun

00:40:14.100 and they, they're the, the path of least resistance. But when we really stop and think about it,

00:40:19.740 they're not actually what we want to be doing, what we want to be spending our time on.

00:40:23.460 All right. They, they, they distract you. All right. So there's pick your highlight.

00:40:26.860 You're going to laser and there's a whole bunch of tactics, you know,

00:40:30.420 and we've talked about some of them avoiding the energy, the infinity pools. The next part of the,

00:40:35.240 the make time process is energize. So this is like basically energy management. Why do you think

00:40:40.900 that's an important part of personal productivity? I think that focusing on building energy

00:40:47.960 is important because it helps us, helps us avoid distraction in the first place and, and kind of

00:40:54.600 make better decisions in those moments, you know, day to day about what we're going to do next.

00:41:00.960 So I've, I've definitely been in a situation where like, you know, I wake up and maybe I've stayed up

00:41:06.840 too late or maybe I was like, you know, I was watching TV too late or I, you know, I drank a little

00:41:12.060 bit too much or I had like a, you know, a huge meal or something like that. And I wake up and I feel

00:41:16.940 groggy or, or sluggish or, you know, not, not energized. And on those mornings, I'm way more

00:41:23.580 likely to, you know, jump into my email or, or open Twitter right away instead of spending time

00:41:29.500 on my highlight. And, you know, I think, I think if you've ever, you know, felt really sluggish after

00:41:34.240 a big lunch, or if you've ever, you know, felt kind of clearheaded and invigorated after,

00:41:39.120 after going for a run, you can kind of, you can kind of see this connection between the energy

00:41:45.980 that we create with our bodies and how that affects the decisions and the things that we do

00:41:51.160 with our brains. Right. So basically, you know, the advice is like, basically the stuff you've been

00:41:55.520 hearing your entire life and how to live a healthy life, get like, you know, get plenty of sleep,

00:41:59.700 you know, eat right, exercise, any other tactics that you found to be very, you know, pretty useful

00:42:05.720 energizing you. Yeah. The, the, the big categories, like you're saying, are kind of the, the stuff that

00:42:12.200 everybody already knows. So, so food, exercise, sleep. And then we also think that, that finding

00:42:19.680 quiet, you know, moments of quiet away from the noise of, of modern life and spending face-to-face

00:42:26.120 time with other people. We think that these are really important ways to build energy, but, but we also

00:42:31.780 know that like this kind of advice is like, it's everywhere and everybody already knows about it.

00:42:36.340 So, so we try to translate that into really concrete, specific tactics that people can try

00:42:42.020 and that it doesn't represent, you know, some dramatically new extreme diet or some like super

00:42:49.040 intense workout program, but kind of little things that, that you can fit into your day.

00:42:54.800 Right. And also, I'm, I'm, could like these things be a highlight for somebody?

00:42:59.800 It definitely could be. I mean, I think that there's a, you know, depending on what you're

00:43:05.220 into and what you like, you know, for example, cooking is, is I think a, a, an activity that can

00:43:10.880 be, it can be a highlight. It can be something that improves the, the healthfulness of the food

00:43:16.480 that you eat. And it can also be a way to, to give yourself energy by using your body, by moving your

00:43:24.240 body. I actually took a lot of inspiration from, from some of your writing, Brett, about,

00:43:29.040 like kind of the, the strenuous life, this idea of, of doing things, you know, of, of having a,

00:43:36.080 a DIY life instead of a remote control life, you know, when, you know, instead of ordering,

00:43:42.980 ordering delivery and, and, you know, using the laundry apps and the, you know, grocery delivery

00:43:47.860 and all, all these things, all these conveniences that are available, something like cooking kind

00:43:52.680 of hits a few of those principles at the same time.

00:43:56.180 Yeah. No. Yeah. I think that's an interesting point. We've, we, we did a series on Winston

00:43:59.780 Churchill. And one of the interesting things about this guy, he had, he had a weird schedule. Like

00:44:03.820 he stayed up late, he slept in, you know, he would dictate to his secretary while he's in his pajamas

00:44:09.160 in his bed or in his bathtub, you know, weird guy, you know, but he worked hard. Like when he was

00:44:13.900 working, he was working hard, but for a break, instead of just taking it easy, like he would go

00:44:20.580 like build a wall in his garden or go paint. Um, and that energized him to go back to whatever else

00:44:27.180 you had to do. Totally. Yeah. I feel that as well. Like, um, I, I get a lot of satisfaction

00:44:33.840 and, and frankly, a lot of energy out of doing things the hard way, you know, kind of choosing

00:44:38.680 the, the manual route, doing things to where there, there's a clear, there is a clear sort of

00:44:46.400 convenient way to, to do the thing, but choosing the harder way, you know, walking is, is a perfect

00:44:51.980 example. It obviously, it takes longer to walk most times, but it actually, I feel like it, it

00:44:59.280 actually creates time because I'm getting energy from that activity, but I, I also have additional

00:45:07.120 mental space that is happening while I'm walking, you know, same with, with cleaning or cooking or,

00:45:14.760 or, or, you know, carrying something home from the store, you know, it creates kind of this,

00:45:20.140 this meditative space, this, this opportunity to, to allow ideas to emerge, to start to kind of reflect

00:45:28.260 on, on what you're doing, how you're spending your time. So yeah, for me, those sort of, you know,

00:45:36.520 hands-on almost those intentionally inconvenient approaches to everyday activities are, are really

00:45:44.620 important. No. Yeah. I've, I've noticed that like whenever I do nothing, it always sounds appealing,

00:45:49.720 but then doing nothing can often just be like exhausting. I don't know why. So I've actually

00:45:56.440 do something on my, like a break, I come back to work more energized. It's, it's bizarre. I don't

00:46:01.520 know why it works that way. Yeah. I mean, like taking a break from work and, and, and checking,

00:46:06.440 you know, Twitter is kind of like the classic example of that. It's like, Oh, like this will be a cool

00:46:12.520 break. I'll, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll catch up on what's going on. And then you get done with it

00:46:16.720 and you're like, wait, that wasn't a break. Like I don't, I don't feel refreshed. I don't feel

00:46:20.820 renewed. Um, now I need it. Now I need a real break. Yeah. Right. Right. A real break. All right.

00:46:26.860 So, uh, you know, just basically take care of yourself so you can be more productive when you're

00:46:31.000 working on the things that are important. So there's highlights, uh, laser energize, and then there's

00:46:36.260 this reflect. What does that reflection process look like? Yeah. So reflect might be the

00:46:42.240 most important part of, of the whole thing. And the idea is that you'll spend just a couple

00:46:47.780 minutes every day thinking back on, on how your day went. What was your highlight? Did you have

00:46:55.000 time for it? And which tactics did you use? Are there things from the book that you tried

00:47:02.160 and did they work well? And if they didn't work well, what do you want to try again tomorrow?

00:47:07.000 For me, this is something that like, I've been, I've been kind of thinking about this stuff

00:47:12.140 for so long. And I've been on this, this journey for so long that I, I do a lot of this reflection

00:47:17.280 kind of intuitively. I have space in my day where I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm walking or,

00:47:25.240 or, you know, not actively engaged in, in work. And I'm, I'm always thinking about, you know,

00:47:31.940 just how things are going, but I know that I'm a little bit weird in that, in that way. So

00:47:37.380 at the same time, there's a lot of advice out there. I think about journaling and about

00:47:43.380 stuff like that, that can, can feel pretty overwhelming. So we're trying to offer people

00:47:49.840 a very small, very bite-sized activity that they can do to basically answer a couple of questions

00:47:56.740 and put themselves in this experimental mindset, put themselves in this way of thinking that

00:48:03.680 doesn't have perfection as a goal, doesn't have the, the perfect application of this,

00:48:10.720 this 20 part system, but just has this spirit of like, just do a little, just get a little better

00:48:17.500 every day. Just do something a little different every day and see how it goes for you.

00:48:21.820 And here's the question, like, how do you keep this up day in and day out? Because that's the

00:48:24.940 problem with what I found with like productivity systems, right? Like, you know, get, getting things

00:48:29.480 done. For example, I did that too, back in whatever, 2007, 2006 came out. And it's like,

00:48:35.240 yeah, this is really cool. I went out and bought all the stuff and I did it for like two weeks. And

00:48:39.340 then it's like, no, uh, yeah, it's gonna, I got that collection of GTD stuff sitting there now.

00:48:46.780 So with this, like, how do you keep it up day in and day out?

00:48:49.500 Yeah. I mean, I think that as much as possible, it's helpful to, to try to make some of these

00:48:57.900 things automatic. So I know there's a lot of advice out there about, about creating habits

00:49:03.340 and, and I'm certainly not an expert on that, but I think to the extent that you can create

00:49:08.220 habits around these activities, that's, that's really helpful. I think even just, just shifting

00:49:13.880 a mindset can really reinforce certain behaviors. But at the same time, like I, I don't know that

00:49:23.540 there is necessarily an easy answer to that question. I think, I think part of it has to come

00:49:29.400 from an external sense of motivation, a sense that you want to change things or that you want to work

00:49:36.880 toward something better. And, and, and I think that that's one of the, one of the results of

00:49:44.620 this approach to making time that as you start to create a little bit of space every day, you start

00:49:51.620 to get a clearer view of, of where you're headed and what's important to you. For example, when my

00:49:58.200 wife and I were just starting to get into sailing and we were spending time learning about our boat and

00:50:03.240 fixing up our boat and taking short trips on the boat, you know, we didn't necessarily have some

00:50:09.660 grand plan that we were working toward, but the more time we spent on it and the more we use these

00:50:16.360 techniques to create space in our days, the stronger motivation we were able to build about

00:50:23.660 what we were working toward. And so, you know, I don't have a perfect formula for, for how to,

00:50:30.080 you know, change your behavior overnight, how to, how to make these changes stick.

00:50:35.240 But I do think that starting to, to slow things down and create a little bit of space every day

00:50:41.060 is the first step. Well, John, where can people go to learn more about the book? We already talked

00:50:45.360 about make time book, right? That's right. Yeah. Make time book.com. Great place to go just to follow

00:50:50.120 everything that Jake and I are doing and writing about is time dorks. Time dorks. So that's our

00:50:56.220 newsletter. It's all about experiments and time management. And then perhaps ironically, I would

00:51:01.000 suggest that people follow me on Twitter as well. My username is Jazzer, J-A-Z-E-R.

00:51:07.820 It's when they're taking their fake break. They can check you out. Exactly.

00:51:11.520 Well, Hey, John, this has been a great conversation. Thanks for coming on.

00:51:14.500 Yeah. Thank you so much, Brad.

00:51:16.100 My guest there is John Zorasky. He's the coauthor of the book,

00:51:18.640 Make Time. It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can also find out

00:51:22.360 more information about the book at his website, maketimebook.com, all one word. You can find

00:51:26.820 links to tools and free resources there. Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash make time,

00:51:32.720 where you can find links to resources, where you can delve deeper into this topic and to put it into

00:51:36.260 action. Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more

00:51:52.200 manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com.

00:51:56.360 And if you enjoy the show, you've gotten something out of it. I'd appreciate it if you give us a

00:51:59.460 review on iTunes or Stitcher. That helps out a lot. And if you've done that already, thank you.

00:52:03.620 Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you think would get something

00:52:06.580 out of it. As always, thank you for your continued support. And until next time,

00:52:10.060 this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.

#450： How to Make Time For What Really Matters Every Day [RE-BROADCAST]

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