#457： Leadership Lessons From the Pastor of One of America's Most Innovative Churches
Episode Stats
Summary
Today on the show, I talk to the guy who started this thing in a garage, and has stood at the helm of its tremendous growth, to glean his insights on leadership and strategy. His name is Craig Groeschel, and he s the founder and head pastor at Life Church, a church that has over 30 campuses across 10 states and is often ranked as the largest church in America.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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I grew up in Edmond, Oklahoma, the suburb of Oklahoma City.
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When I was a teenager back in the 90s, I started hearing about some church being run out of
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Didn't give it much thought at the time, but fast forward 20 years later, and Life Church
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now has over 30 campuses across 10 states and is often ranked as the largest church in
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Today on the show, I talked to the guy who started this thing in a garage and has stood at the
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helm of its tremendous growth to glean his insights on leadership and strategy.
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His name is Craig Groeschel, and he's the founder and head pastor at Life Church.
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We discuss Craig's philosophy on leadership and managing the growth of a large organization,
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how he balances innovation with stability, how an organization can stay nimble even as
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it gets bigger, how you have to relinquish control in order to get growth.
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And why leaders need to go out of their way to show people they're noticed and needed.
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We then discussed the personal side of leadership, including how to balance work and life, how
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to avoid letting administrative duties kill your creativity, and how to handle criticism.
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Whether you're a leader in a business or a nonprofit, you're going to find lots of
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After it's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash groeschel.
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And if you live in Oklahoma and you're driving around, you probably see cars with these LC
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stickers on their rear window, which means Life Church.
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And that's the church you helped found and are the head pastor of.
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And it's been interesting because I've been watching this grow for the past 20 plus years.
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And I remember first hearing about this when I was a teenager, about this church in a garage.
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And 20 plus years later, there's multiple campuses in multiple states.
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So I wanted to bring you on to talk about growing an organization, managing the growth of that
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organization, leading people on a micro and macro level, because I think you might have some
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So before we get to that, let's talk about the story of Life Church.
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Before you started Life Church, you were wanting to be just a minister to a traditional church,
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And you went up to the ordination board and you got turned down.
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What happened there and how did that affect you?
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Well, I was midway through seminary at the time, and I was a part of a traditional denomination
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that I loved then and still love and value today.
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Basically, I didn't live up to what they wanted.
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They said my ideas were too wild, that I didn't have the normal gifts that most pastors had.
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And so they said they weren't sure I was called to ministry.
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I got in my little geoprism and cried all the way home, mostly because I got rejected,
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but partly because I was rejected and driving a geoprism.
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You know, this is what I thought I was supposed to do.
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And to be totally fair, a year later, they did approve me.
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But it was a long year of wondering, am I going to live up to what the standards that this ordaining
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And so when did you decide to start this thing in your garage with Life.Church?
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And they probably wisely said no, meaning they wanted somebody with more experience than I
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And so that was something really in our hearts.
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And once that door shut, we started looking for other doors.
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And I went out for a jog on a Thursday right before we started, ran into a buddy out in
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his driveway who said, hey, I've got this two-car garage that's been kind of changed
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And so we moved into the little dance studio that had mirrors, which was great because it
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made the 40 people show up look like 80 people.
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And that's when we started January 7th in 1996 in the little garage and stayed there for a
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few weeks until we outgrew it and moved into a middle school.
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We'll be launching the 32nd this month in 10 different states.
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The goal of church is to grow members' faith and spirituality.
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It's like, how do you measure success for that?
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So how do you measure success for that very abstract goal?
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We do want people to grow spiritually, but how do you determine if they're becoming more
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So what we decided years ago to do is kind of define the outcomes we hope to see and then
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ask ourselves, what are the inputs that contribute to those outcomes?
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What are the things that we can control that help produce the desires that we cannot control?
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And so for us, I mean, we measure, no exaggeration, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds
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and hundreds and hundreds of things, most of which nobody would care about.
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But the things that we feel like do contribute to spiritual growth are kind of the front and
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Essentially, it's different forms of spiritual engagement.
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We feel like that people tend to grow spiritually when they're engaged, not just in scripture,
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but when they're engaged in scripture with community, that there's something that happens
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So we measure the number of people that are in small groups.
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There's a lot that we measure about it, like how long does it take to get someone in it?
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A lot of sub-measurements, but that's the big one.
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We measure engagement of people using their gifts.
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We believe that everyone is important, that everyone has a calling and should be making
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And so if they're in our church family, they should be doing something valuable in the church
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So how long does it take to get them involved using their gifts?
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We measure involvement in the community, meaning like Bread and Tulsa, there's, I think, seven
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They all will have local community partners, and we want to get as many people involved serving
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We measure those who are giving when you have a generous heart, that's likely some evidence
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And so those are just a few of the things that we look at and try to say, what are the
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And then we measure those things that we feel like contribute to spiritual growth.
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So it sounds like there's a lot of testing that goes on too with this.
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I mean, there's, and yes, you know, in any kind of growing organization, chances are you're
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And so we measure different things now than we did in the past.
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So one thing that's made Life.Church so successful, we've gotten to where it is today.
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I mean, you're one of the first churches that did online sermons.
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You've got the Bible app that you guys put out there.
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So there's a lot of innovation, but people also like stability and continuity too, especially
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So do you think it's, I mean, is that a challenge?
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Is that something, a tension you have to navigate, like continually be innovating while also trying
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to just keep doing what, you know, you're doing and getting better at it, what you're
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So, you know, our church is a Christian church and we live with rich historic tradition.
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And so there's certain things about our faith that should never, ever, ever change.
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So the way we engage with culture better be changing.
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And so like the YouVersion Bible app, we looked years ago and realized, you know, there's people
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that may believe in God, but they are not reading their Bibles.
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And so we decided to try to help solve that problem.
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And we created an app and we're lucky enough to take it to the apps for the very first day
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And as of today, it's grown to, we've given away 346 million free Bible apps.
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So that's a case of taking what is traditional and constant and unchanging the Bible, but using
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And so we believe that the Bible is not just a book that is living, it's truth.
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And that's kind of a classic example of there's some things we need to keep the same, but how
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I do think in any kind of growing organization, we want to be innovative, but there's no shame
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There's a lot that we do that's just blocking and tackling day in, day out, week after week,
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There are some things in application and execution that never, ever change, and there's no reason
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There are other things that we need to always be breaking, tweaking, improving, shaking,
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And I think it takes wisdom and a little bit of nuances to understand what are some of those
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And we don't always get it right, but we work hard to.
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What sorts of things do you guys have kind of kept the same?
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You know, but like I'm talking about on a day-to-day execution level.
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You know, the game plan of how we engage people has never, ever changed.
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And I'll give you maybe a little bit more than you want to know, but let's take two different
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The reason they stay there, generally speaking, is because they're needed.
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There's something they're doing that's valuable.
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And the second reason is because they feel known.
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If they miss a weekend, someone says, hey, where were you?
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They typically stay at a great small church because they're needed and known.
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There's professionals and, you know, more skilled volunteers doing something and there's
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And secondly, they miss three weeks and nobody notices.
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So for us, needed and known, those things are massive.
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From day number one to 23 years in, what we want to do is we want to help people make a
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We may tweak how we do it, but the what, the goal is crystal clear.
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And I think any kind of business, nonprofit, there are going to be those things that don't
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And those are two things that always matter for us.
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And I think this idea of needed and known, I mean, this applies not just to a church,
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I think I've read like the one thing that employees want the most is appreciation.
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They just want to say they just want to be needed and known.
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And I mean, that's why so often, you know, our team members are frustrated, you know,
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And so I think those are, those are valuable principles in any organization to help them
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use their gifts and help them feel valued and cared for.
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So another problem that organizations encounter as they get larger is that at the beginning,
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when you're, this is like whether you're a church or a business or a nonprofit or whatever,
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in the beginning, it's small, it's charismatic, it's agile, that you guys are moving fast,
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But as you get larger, there tends to be a calcification in the institution because you
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have, I mean, it's sort of the natural process, right?
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So how do you, as a large organization, stay agile as you continue to grow and add more layers
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We were one of the first churches to start going to multiple sites.
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And we made a lot of mistakes that growing organizations make.
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When you have a problem, you usually follow with a rule and before long, you get rule
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You, what used to take a little time now takes a lot of people to approve something and you
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start getting bogged down with bureaucracy and too many layers.
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So midway through, we recognize this was a problem.
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We fight like crazy to eliminate layers in our leadership organizational chart.
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I don't want people that are just kind of overseeing.
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Again, this isn't my original idea, but somebody said basically like 2% of your people are always
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The rules we create will slow down the other 98%.
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And so we want to fight against unnecessary rules.
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If you're not careful, the rules can be elevated above the love and care for people.
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And then just on a real practical standpoint, Brett, for me, I find a measurement of success
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is by looking at how deep into the organization you empower people to say yes.
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If yes, decisions can only be made from the top, then the top is the limit to the progress
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What we want to do is empower the right people, believe in the right people, and push as many
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decisions deep into the organization as possible.
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You don't need a lot of upward management to move the ball forward.
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You push the decision-making power deep into the organization.
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And again, we don't always get that right, but that's the goal that we're working toward.
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I mean, you have to let go, but at the same time, in the beginning, you're letting leaders
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How do you coach them or guide them as they're learning how to make those decisions?
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Well, the best way to find out if you can trust them is to trust them.
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And John Maxwell always said, if someone can do something 80% as well as you can and delegate
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it to them, I'm actually getting more aggressive than John is right now.
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Now, I'm saying if I've got a team member that has momentum and potential, they can do
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it 50% or 60% as well, but they do have capacity to learn, I want to give it to them and entrust
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One of the biggest limiting factors of any organization is just our desire to control.
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And this is something I've had to work through.
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The more we want to control, the more we limit the growth.
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What we have to do is we have to empower the right people, give away, give away, give
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The bottom line is they don't always get it right.
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It's often you almost have to go through like a dip of production at times or a slight loss
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of quality while they're ramping up and they have a learning curve.
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And we have to have a tolerance for a little bit of the dip to have the capacity for the
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And that may be, you know, we may not quite get it right for the next three months because
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we've got people with a learning curve, but those people with time, with coaching, with
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feedback can one day actually perform better than those who were doing it before.
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If you select the right people, put them in the right systems and give them the right
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And that's just part of the growing organization.
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There can be, you know, you can empower the wrong person.
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You have to backtrack, but you don't grow without risk and risking on people is one of
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I mean, what point did you, what point with this thing did you just realize like, I had
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And when you had to make, start letting go, was it really hard for you?
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So if you can go back in time, we were in our third location in a bike factory.
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I couldn't find kind of like what you would call your second person in charge, whatever
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People didn't know if we're going to make it or not.
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I couldn't find that kind of great leader to come along with me.
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But there's a guy who was a district manager for Target, Jerry Hurley, who's still with
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He agreed to take a massive pay cut and join our team.
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And he was on for a few weeks when he had a very respectful conversation with me.
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But he said something like, you know, you're good at this, you're good at that, you're a
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But he said, your need for control is going to be the biggest limiting factor in this organization.
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And then he just looked at me and he said, if you can trust that I've had experience in
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areas that you haven't yet and give me the freedom to lead and build, I believe I can
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And this guy who had, you know, here I was a 29, 30-year-old pastor who never led anything
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And here was a guy who had managed multiple Target stores.
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He came in and started building systems and training people.
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And I looked back and started looking around and realized this is, he's doing a lot better
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It was about that time that I started to get obsessed with empowering people.
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What I don't want to do is I don't want to delegate tasks.
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If I delegate tasks, what I'm doing is I'm training people to do what they're told.
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What I want to learn to do is I want to delegate authority.
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Instead of creating followers by delegating authority, I'm creating leaders.
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Now, I am, it would scare people to know how hands-off I am and what I don't know.
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I'm always have a heart, I'm on the heartbeat of the culture.
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But there are hundreds and hundreds of things that people would be shocked that I don't know
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anything about because I've empowered the right people.
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And that's one of the principles we talk about is you can have control, you can have growth,
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Any entrepreneurial leader loves her work or loves his work that they're starting out with.
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But to take it to the next level, we have to empower people more than we ever imagined.
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And then our organizations can end up accomplishing more, growing to heights in places far beyond
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Yeah, I love that idea of delegating authority, not task.
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So you mentioned something interesting there in passing.
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So I think a lot of people, when they're starting an organization or a business,
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they feel like it has to be perfect from the get-go.
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But with Life.Church, I mean, you were in a garage, you were in a bike factory.
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I mean, a lot of the times, did you feel like you were just kind of flying by the seat
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And even to the point now where we want to guard against – we always want to strive
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for excellence, but we don't want to – our goal can never be perfection.
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If it's perfection, what we're going to end up doing is spending too much money in places
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We're going to be too cautious in not trying things that are new.
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We're not going to empower people and let them grow.
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So we want excellence, but perfection can be the enemy of progress.
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And so, yes, I mean, to this day, I still wake up and think, how are we going to get
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And that's kind of what makes the whole ride fun.
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We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.
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So you're a leader of a big organization, multiple locations, hundreds of employees,
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But what's interesting about your job, too, is you're a pastor.
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You have to deliver a sermon, a message each week that has to be engaging and impart some
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So there's like a division between, it sounds like, administrative duties and creative duties.
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How do you prevent administrative duties compromising your ability to access the more creative part
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And I actually appreciate the observation because that's something that a lot of people from
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There's the creative content, which is a big, big part.
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And then there's running the organization, which is a really big part.
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And if I'm not careful or others in my role aren't careful, one of them will squeeze out
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I fight like crazy against being in too many meetings because so often in our organizations,
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meetings are not as productive as they need to be.
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I want to make sure that the meetings that I'm in need decision making and they're not
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just informative because there's other ways to get information.
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So I only have one fixed meeting a week on my calendar.
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The second thing is, you know, prioritizing is crucial for all of us.
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We all have more to do than we have time to do it.
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And so I put artificial deadlines on just about everything that I do.
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A lot of people talk about, you know, what do you do early in the day that makes you successful?
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I like to talk about what I do later in the day to make me successful.
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And that is creating a deadline, which is a quitting time ahead of time.
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Like today, I will leave the office at 345 like I did yesterday, and I'll go to the gym.
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And that artificial deadline, which isn't real, one I just put there, what it does is
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I have to delegate things that I probably would do otherwise.
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I have to say no to some things that I would probably normally do.
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My sermon is due in my mind at noon on Wednesday every single week.
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In the history of our church, I've never missed that deadline, although the deadline is only
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If I didn't have that deadline, I'd work into Wednesday afternoon, into Thursday.
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I have to clear that off my plate so I can do the administrative part, because until the
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sermon is, until I feel that relief of completion, I can't focus on the rest.
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I need half a day on Wednesday and all day on Thursday to focus on the administrative part.
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And so the artificial deadline creates the boundary that frees me up to do the rest of
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They're an entrepreneur, a startup business leader.
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And so literally saying, I've got this much time for certain projects, you become more efficient.
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If you, Brett, were going on vacation on a Wednesday, somehow you'd get Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,
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Thursday, Friday's worth of work done by Wednesday.
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That's kind of what I try to do is put tight boundaries, constraints that help me be creative,
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It reminds me, I think, Paul Graham, the guy who does Y Combinator.
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He has this essay about a maker's schedule and a manager's schedule.
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I like the maker's like the creative schedule and the manager's schedule is like the administrative
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And he says, you can't let the two bleed together or else you'll do both poorly.
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So you've talked about that you've been a workaholic in the past.
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How did you get a, I mean, so it sounds like one thing you've done to get a handle on that
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Is there anything else you've done to get a manage on pushing yourself too hard?
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I think, you know, years ago I had some people come to me and say, we feel like you have
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a problem and they made me go to counseling for being a workaholic and I didn't get a
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A few years went by and I realized that they were right.
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And so the second time I went to counseling for it, I actually did get, get more out of
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The, uh, my counselor told me, he said, he really stung me.
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He said, the reason you work so hard is two reasons.
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And the other one is because you're not, you're, you're, you're not performing as a strong leader
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And those words that was like, kind of punched me in the gut.
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You know, he said, you think you're the only one that can do things.
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And the second one was, you know, you're not trusting and empowering other people.
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And that was kind of in the season where our church was stuck and Jerry was coming on and
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Uh, some things for me that I, I am good at is I'm really good at guarding my, my day off
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I rarely will give those up and I'm good at those.
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The downside and to just to be real transparent with you is I start really, really early.
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And so I can bury and kind of hide some of my workaholic tendencies when others may not
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necessarily see it because I can put in a long day before a lot of people ever get in.
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So if you ask my wife, am I fully functioning and always healthy?
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She'd probably giggle a little bit, laugh at you and say, no, would she say that I do
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prioritize the family and, um, take vacation time and block off the base?
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No, I'm still very dysfunctional and, um, still have lots of problems and, and still can
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slip back into real long and unhealthy work binges.
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So another challenge that a leader of a large organization faces, you know, is when you first
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started out as a minister, you know, you were able to minister one-on-one with people on
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But now that you're a leader of a church with tens of thousands of members, you know, for
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time reasons, even security reasons, you know, you can't do much one-on-one ministering
00:27:46.080
So, you know, being a leader of a large organization, whether it's at a corporation or something else
00:27:53.640
So how do you keep from feeling cordoned off from the rank and file of your church?
00:28:00.600
One thing is any type of success in leadership tends to lead toward isolation unless you intentionally
00:28:09.820
And so just on the relational end, it's incredibly important to work really, really hard to be
00:28:15.700
intentional about keeping relationships intimate and strong.
00:28:19.120
You would know this just as your podcast becomes more successful.
00:28:22.880
As you grow on your business, people start to tell you more what you want to hear, and
00:28:28.320
And so we have to work really hard to keep honesty and closeness in our relationships.
00:28:35.260
The other end of it is just kind of like the pastoral end.
00:28:39.300
As the church grows, I obviously can't do everything that I did before.
00:28:43.380
But a friend of mine, Andy Stanley, has a teaching.
00:28:47.060
He says, do for one what you wish you could do for all.
00:28:53.080
There are so many things that I would love to do for 100 people that I can't, but I 100%
00:29:00.820
Almost every weekend at church, there's someone that's sick that knows someone who asks, and
00:29:08.640
And there's a teenager that's going through a difficult time, and we stop and we pray for
00:29:13.440
And so we'll set up those kind of meetings, or we'll go do a hospital visit or whatever.
00:29:25.920
And doing some of that is incredibly important to me, because if I don't, then it kind of
00:29:32.140
robs me of the purity of the whole reason we started this.
00:29:37.180
There are a lot of things I can't do that I wish I could do just from this sheer scope
00:29:44.940
But I'm not going to let that keep me from the joys of doing a few things that really
00:29:50.300
do matter and move the needle on personal fulfillment.
00:29:54.940
And do I imagine you set aside time on your calendar for that?
00:30:00.860
So when I'm at church, my office hours, they're so jammed.
00:30:06.380
It's hard to describe and hard for most people to understand.
00:30:09.940
There's not much margin in the producing hours.
00:30:13.600
But on the weekends, I've got 30 minutes between every service.
00:30:17.000
And so I'll pack that full of say hi and ministering to people in different ways we can.
00:30:24.100
So I'm already out and kind of like add-ons really work well.
00:30:29.100
So another part of being a leader is receiving criticism.
00:30:32.760
But I think people like ministers, pastors, priests, like they can never do anything right,
00:30:38.940
Sermons are either too hard or too soft, or you said you shouldn't have said X or you
00:30:44.480
How do you deal with the onslaught of feedback and criticism that you might receive because
00:30:52.880
I think anybody in leadership and not just coaches and you on your podcast, you certainly
00:31:01.820
And especially in the age of social media, people have access to criticize faster.
00:31:10.600
On one hand, we have to always be open to learn from it.
00:31:16.120
And there have been multiple times where critics have been right or somewhat right.
00:31:21.960
And I've had to actually humble myself and say, that is a really, really fair point.
00:31:26.560
And it's still humbling how often I have to do that.
00:31:30.600
So I need to make sure that I don't write off all criticism as bad criticism.
00:31:35.620
I need to ask myself, is there any truth to it?
00:31:37.740
A lot of times, it just is uninformed criticism.
00:31:41.740
It's by people that are hurting and they're going to take shots at anyone they can.
00:31:46.040
For me, I'm not going to say that it never bothers me.
00:31:51.160
But the more on my game I am, in other words, the more I'm obsessed with the mission, the
00:31:56.080
easier it is to tolerate some of the unjustified criticism.
00:31:59.240
And so it helps me to be focused, to be driven, to really be heads down, doing what I know
00:32:07.500
And then I can kind of just take it as part of the game.
00:32:10.020
It's when I'm off my game, when I'm kind of maybe feeling sorry for myself or have my
00:32:15.740
eye a little bit off the real target, that it can get under my skin and such.
00:32:23.160
Well, unless it's someone that I know, if it's just social media, I just let it go.
00:32:30.760
I'm not going to feed that and give them the satisfaction knowing that I saw it.
00:32:34.320
And so I'm just going to keep my head down and try to keep going.
00:32:40.480
It says, don't deal with personalities or don't deal in personalities.
00:32:43.820
Sort of like no response rule to personal attacks.
00:32:46.780
So that idea of like, how do you figuring out which criticism you should pay attention
00:32:57.540
You know, there are some people that, that like, if, if someone that really loves me is
00:33:04.260
pointing something out, I'm going to listen to that a lot more than just some random stranger
00:33:09.140
who's tweeting and in all caps with misspelled words at me, you know?
00:33:13.380
And also, if I hear something a lot, there are some categories of criticism where people
00:33:19.660
are, they're always going to hate megachurch pastors or whatever.
00:33:25.680
But if it's something else that, you know, like for, if we go back years ago, I heard
00:33:31.120
a lot of people in the church say, hey, you're being too crude in your humor when you're
00:33:36.740
And I thought, you know, you guys are just, you don't have a good sense of humor, but I
00:33:40.460
heard it enough that it started to raise my awareness.
00:33:46.000
And then one week, my daughter was old enough to come into kind of big church and I was about
00:33:51.380
to tell a joke about, I actually wouldn't want her to hear that.
00:33:54.720
And so suddenly kind of the clouds lifted and I realized, okay, all these people are right.
00:33:59.360
I really need to, I need to, I need to be a little cleaner in that and more God honoring
00:34:07.540
And so I think it's, you know, who does it tends to matter.
00:34:11.840
And then if you hear it enough for more than one person or from a lot of people, then it
00:34:17.060
might be time to say, they might, they might have something I should pay attention to.
00:34:23.400
So you have, you know, paid staff on hand, but a lot of the day-to-day stuff at your church
00:34:29.020
How do you, how do you keep these people motivated and reliable for work?
00:34:34.640
You know, even though, cause they're not obligated to work, they're not getting a paycheck, you
00:34:42.720
So how do you keep volunteers motivated and to keep working?
00:34:47.380
You know, in any, in any type of relationship with volunteers or with, with staff, they, they
00:34:55.360
They want to know that we notice and that we care.
00:34:58.220
And so anytime we can say, I noticed what you're doing, it really matters and help them
00:35:06.940
And, and letting them know that you value what they do matters in, in motivating and appreciating
00:35:12.840
One thing that I always try to say is, is that appreciate more than you think you should.
00:35:18.980
So what you want to do is you want to kind of almost be like uncomfortable, like I've done
00:35:23.320
enough now, appreciate more than you think you should, then double it.
00:35:27.560
Whenever you hit that point where you're starting to feel uncomfortable, realize you're not even
00:35:32.620
And so with volunteers, it's going to be everything from thank you notes, thank you notes, thank
00:35:38.460
I'm a big believer in pen to paper and send it in the mail, the old fashioned way and say,
00:35:45.320
Slightly lazier yet still semi-effective ways, texting, phone calls, sharing stories, letting
00:35:52.100
them in on inside information, just being kind of on the inside is motivating.
00:35:57.120
Ultimately connecting what they do to a higher calling really matters.
00:36:01.780
Then we kind of move from motivating to inspiring.
00:36:07.780
Inspiring is helping it come from within, from in spirit, inspire.
00:36:12.020
And so if we can help pull out that desire to use our gifts to contribute to something greater,
00:36:17.920
At the end of the day, we want to help connect what they do with making a real difference.
00:36:29.100
And people will line up to be a part of something that's bigger than themselves when, when others
00:36:34.440
care and together we get to do something significant, significant and special.
00:36:42.400
So another job as a leader is providing a vision for your organization.
00:36:47.700
How far advanced do you plan for the organization you lead?
00:36:56.600
So I, I used to kind of set like five year goals and my, my philosophy has really changed
00:37:04.280
The, the, I think it's because the world has changed so much now the pace of change, it's
00:37:13.680
So my ability to predict or project five years in the future is, is so much smaller than,
00:37:23.280
And in fact, what I found was I, I generally would undershoot what was possible and under
00:37:30.600
So now instead of projecting five years out in the future, what we're, we're really passionate
00:37:35.520
about doing is creating a lot of margin now for opportunities that we cannot predict.
00:37:41.800
I, I don't know what new technology is going to be available in five years.
00:37:46.200
I don't know what new team members I'm going to have.
00:37:48.320
And I'm not honestly a big believer in outcome goals.
00:37:52.880
I'll give you a few, like in my world, what multi-site pastors will say is we want to start
00:38:01.040
I actually think it's a really stupid goal because if you're going to start 20, you might
00:38:14.980
You weren't developed enough in your philosophy.
00:38:18.840
And so you let a goal drive you to do something stupid.
00:38:21.640
I don't want to ever have a numerical goal drive me to something unwise or premature.
00:38:27.640
So instead of saying, I want to do 20 by 2020, I want to do the right number of the next year.
00:38:33.060
I might stretch myself some saying, you know, we were planning on three, let's try for four,
00:38:41.380
What I do want to do is I want to have the right inputs that will lead to the right outcome.
00:38:45.960
Meaning, okay, we need to be developing leaders.
00:38:48.760
If we're going to start four campuses next year, how many leaders do we need?
00:38:54.880
If we're going to pay cash for the buildings, how much money do we need to raise and save
00:39:00.240
If we're going to grow from, you know, 31 locations to 37, do we need a structural change?
00:39:06.160
Let's change the structure today before it breaks so that we can sustain the growth in
00:39:12.100
So rather than looking way out in the distance and trying to project when we usually get it
00:39:20.900
And I also want to prepare and plan knowing that there are opportunities that are going
00:39:25.440
There may be a piece of land that I didn't see was coming.
00:39:28.640
There might be three staff members we want to hire that we didn't know were going to be
00:39:32.560
There may be a new technology that we want to leverage and we didn't see that technology
00:39:40.920
I want to have personal capacity margin to take something else on.
00:39:45.840
And so instead of planning, we're more planning for something specific.
00:39:51.140
We're planning for something that we don't know what it is.
00:39:53.560
And then we're going to seize those opportunities when they come.
00:39:56.340
Maybe a non-traditional may not work in every business, probably wouldn't, but it served us
00:40:02.800
And I'm pretty passionate about continuing to lead that way, at least for now.
00:40:05.580
So yeah, it sounds like you're being conservative in the short term, right?
00:40:09.680
You might not spend as much as you maybe could so that you could be aggressive when the opportunity
00:40:15.140
arises because you have that extra capital, whether it's human or financial.
00:40:18.900
I think, yeah, I think growing at the right pace is really, really important.
00:40:24.380
You can, my gosh, you can grow too fast and end up compromising your ability to do something
00:40:34.080
And in my world, we call that, you know, burying your talents and not, and that's not something
00:40:46.200
But the thing to remember is now with as fast as the world is changing, there are opportunities
00:40:52.600
that are coming that none of us could have predicted.
00:40:55.680
I can guarantee you 10 years ago, you aren't projecting to have a podcast that's doing what
00:41:00.600
It's a, it's a different category that didn't exist.
00:41:03.180
And so you're able to seize it two years from now that your podcast might evolve into something
00:41:11.340
You can't plan for it, but you can be prepared for that opportunity that's coming, whatever
00:41:18.360
Well, Craig, this has been a great conversation.
00:41:20.060
You, is there some place people can go to learn more about your insights on leadership
00:41:26.280
It's just called the Craig Rochelle Leadership Podcast.
00:41:28.800
And, uh, we drop at least one podcast every month, unlike you that drop them all the time
00:41:33.120
because you're much better at getting out content faster than I am.
00:41:36.840
Well, you know, I'm also not a pastor, so you're, you're a busy man.
00:41:41.380
Well, Hey, Craig, thanks so much for coming on.
00:41:47.460
Thanks for providing valuable content for all of us.
00:41:55.200
Just search Craig Rochelle Leadership Podcast, or you can go to life.church slash leadership
00:42:02.360
Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash grochelle.
00:42:08.280
Where you can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic.
00:42:21.080
Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:42:26.400
For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website
00:42:30.660
And if you enjoy the show, you've gotten something out of it.
00:42:32.600
I'd appreciate if you take one minute to give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher.
00:42:38.220
Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you would think
00:42:41.740
As always, thank you for your continued support.
00:42:43.620
And until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.