The Art of Manliness - #457： Leadership Lessons From the Pastor of One of America's Most Innovative Churches

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:18.220 I grew up in Edmond, Oklahoma, the suburb of Oklahoma City.

00:00:21.080 When I was a teenager back in the 90s, I started hearing about some church being run out of

00:00:25.240 a guy's garage.

00:00:26.140 Didn't give it much thought at the time, but fast forward 20 years later, and Life Church

00:00:30.140 now has over 30 campuses across 10 states and is often ranked as the largest church in

00:00:34.220 America.

00:00:34.800 Today on the show, I talked to the guy who started this thing in a garage and has stood at the

00:00:38.340 helm of its tremendous growth to glean his insights on leadership and strategy.

00:00:42.120 His name is Craig Groeschel, and he's the founder and head pastor at Life Church.

00:00:45.500 We discuss Craig's philosophy on leadership and managing the growth of a large organization,

00:00:49.240 how he balances innovation with stability, how an organization can stay nimble even as

00:00:53.020 it gets bigger, how you have to relinquish control in order to get growth.

00:00:56.140 And why leaders need to go out of their way to show people they're noticed and needed.

00:00:59.600 We then discussed the personal side of leadership, including how to balance work and life, how

00:01:03.200 to avoid letting administrative duties kill your creativity, and how to handle criticism.

00:01:07.420 Whether you're a leader in a business or a nonprofit, you're going to find lots of

00:01:10.420 actionable advice in the show.

00:01:11.640 After it's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash groeschel.

00:01:15.780 That's G-R-O-E-S-C-H-E-L. 1.00

00:01:25.880 Pastor Craig Groeschel, welcome to the show.

00:01:28.480 Hey, Brett.

00:01:29.020 Thanks for having me on, man.

00:01:29.960 I'm honored to be with you.

00:01:31.240 So I live in Oklahoma and Tulsa.

00:01:34.620 And if you live in Oklahoma and you're driving around, you probably see cars with these LC

00:01:40.360 stickers on their rear window, which means Life Church.

00:01:44.220 And that's the church you helped found and are the head pastor of.

00:01:47.500 And it's been interesting because I've been watching this grow for the past 20 plus years.

00:01:52.480 I grew up in Edmond.

00:01:53.820 And I remember first hearing about this when I was a teenager, about this church in a garage.

00:01:59.040 And 20 plus years later, there's multiple campuses in multiple states.

00:02:03.800 So I wanted to bring you on to talk about growing an organization, managing the growth of that

00:02:10.600 organization, leading people on a micro and macro level, because I think you might have some

00:02:15.200 insights there.

00:02:16.100 So before we get to that, let's talk about the story of Life Church.

00:02:19.480 Before you started Life Church, you were wanting to be just a minister to a traditional church,

00:02:24.740 correct?

00:02:25.700 Yes.

00:02:26.280 All right.

00:02:26.700 And you went up to the ordination board and you got turned down.

00:02:30.480 What happened there and how did that affect you?

00:02:32.480 Well, I was midway through seminary at the time, and I was a part of a traditional denomination

00:02:39.580 that I loved then and still love and value today.

00:02:43.120 But I flunked the ordination part.

00:02:47.020 I was the only guy.

00:02:48.500 Basically, I didn't live up to what they wanted.

00:02:51.100 They said my ideas were too wild, that I didn't have the normal gifts that most pastors had.

00:02:56.480 And so they said they weren't sure I was called to ministry.

00:02:59.680 And Brett, I was beside myself.

00:03:02.380 Upset, disappointed, embarrassed, ashamed.

00:03:04.560 I got in my little geoprism and cried all the way home, mostly because I got rejected,

00:03:09.560 but partly because I was rejected and driving a geoprism.

00:03:12.840 But I felt like my world fell apart.

00:03:14.960 You know, this is what I thought I was supposed to do.

00:03:16.920 And then I didn't live up to their standards.

00:03:20.720 And to be totally fair, a year later, they did approve me.

00:03:25.420 But it was a long year of wondering, am I going to live up to what the standards that this ordaining

00:03:30.740 board had for me?

00:03:31.840 And I didn't make the cut the first time.

00:03:34.080 And so when did you decide to start this thing in your garage with Life.Church?

00:03:39.040 Well, I was a part of the denomination.

00:03:40.980 And so I asked them, could I start a church?

00:03:42.900 And I was 27 at the time.

00:03:44.720 And they probably wisely said no, meaning they wanted somebody with more experience than I

00:03:49.900 had.

00:03:50.600 I was just recently out of seminary.

00:03:52.920 And so that was something really in our hearts.

00:03:56.660 And once that door shut, we started looking for other doors.

00:03:59.460 And it was in January of 96.

00:04:01.580 We were planning on starting in our house.

00:04:04.500 We had a handful of people.

00:04:05.600 And I went out for a jog on a Thursday right before we started, ran into a buddy out in

00:04:10.480 his driveway who said, hey, I've got this two-car garage that's been kind of changed

00:04:15.380 into a dance studio.

00:04:16.560 Do you want to meet there?

00:04:18.080 And so we moved into the little dance studio that had mirrors, which was great because it

00:04:22.140 made the 40 people show up look like 80 people.

00:04:24.820 And that's when we started January 7th in 1996 in the little garage and stayed there for a

00:04:30.180 few weeks until we outgrew it and moved into a middle school.

00:04:32.980 And how many campuses are there now?

00:04:36.260 As of today, there's 31.

00:04:39.320 We'll be launching the 32nd this month in 10 different states.

00:04:43.020 That's crazy.

00:04:44.240 So this is interesting with church.

00:04:47.160 The goal of church is to grow members' faith and spirituality.

00:04:50.780 And that's a really abstract goal.

00:04:53.400 It's like, how do you measure success for that?

00:04:55.600 So how do you measure success for that very abstract goal?

00:04:59.660 That's a great question.

00:05:00.680 We do want people to grow spiritually, but how do you determine if they're becoming more

00:05:06.180 loving or more patient or more pure?

00:05:08.320 It's really almost impossible to measure.

00:05:11.660 So what we decided years ago to do is kind of define the outcomes we hope to see and then

00:05:17.320 ask ourselves, what are the inputs that contribute to those outcomes?

00:05:22.380 What are the things that we can control that help produce the desires that we cannot control?

00:05:26.960 And so for us, I mean, we measure, no exaggeration, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds

00:05:34.400 and hundreds and hundreds of things, most of which nobody would care about.

00:05:37.600 But the things that we feel like do contribute to spiritual growth are kind of the front and

00:05:42.580 center things we measure.

00:05:44.060 Essentially, it's different forms of spiritual engagement.

00:05:47.640 We feel like that people tend to grow spiritually when they're engaged, not just in scripture,

00:05:54.420 but when they're engaged in scripture with community, that there's something that happens

00:05:57.960 that when they're together.

00:05:58.900 So we measure the number of people that are in small groups.

00:06:02.220 There's a lot that we measure about it, like how long does it take to get someone in it?

00:06:05.920 How long are they in it?

00:06:06.840 Do the groups grow and multiply?

00:06:08.760 A lot of sub-measurements, but that's the big one.

00:06:11.580 We measure engagement of people using their gifts.

00:06:15.040 We believe that everyone is important, that everyone has a calling and should be making

00:06:18.960 a difference.

00:06:19.760 And so if they're in our church family, they should be doing something valuable in the church

00:06:24.520 family.

00:06:24.980 So how long does it take to get them involved using their gifts?

00:06:27.880 We measure involvement in the community, meaning like Bread and Tulsa, there's, I think, seven

00:06:33.120 different life churches.

00:06:34.120 They all will have local community partners, and we want to get as many people involved serving

00:06:38.920 in the community.

00:06:39.640 We measure those who are giving when you have a generous heart, that's likely some evidence

00:06:45.660 of spiritual growth.

00:06:46.600 And so those are just a few of the things that we look at and try to say, what are the

00:06:50.660 inputs that bring about the desired outcomes?

00:06:52.380 And then we measure those things that we feel like contribute to spiritual growth.

00:06:57.000 So it sounds like there's a lot of testing that goes on too with this.

00:07:00.380 There's a lot of testing.

00:07:01.540 I mean, there's, and yes, you know, in any kind of growing organization, chances are you're

00:07:07.980 not going to get it right the first few times.

00:07:09.520 And so we measure different things now than we did in the past.

00:07:12.820 And yes, there'd be testing again and again.

00:07:16.280 Over and over.

00:07:16.820 So one thing that's made Life.Church so successful, we've gotten to where it is today.

00:07:20.580 It's been so innovative.

00:07:21.600 I mean, you're one of the first churches that did online sermons.

00:07:24.760 You've got the Bible app that you guys put out there.

00:07:27.780 So there's a lot of innovation, but people also like stability and continuity too, especially

00:07:33.660 with church.

00:07:35.220 So do you think it's, I mean, is that a challenge?

00:07:37.820 Is that something, a tension you have to navigate, like continually be innovating while also trying

00:07:42.300 to just keep doing what, you know, you're doing and getting better at it, what you're

00:07:46.720 already doing?

00:07:47.480 I think there's always a tension.

00:07:49.240 So, you know, our church is a Christian church and we live with rich historic tradition.

00:07:56.460 And so there's certain things about our faith that should never, ever, ever change.

00:08:01.600 But culture is changing all the time.

00:08:03.560 So the way we engage with culture better be changing.

00:08:07.460 And so like the YouVersion Bible app, we looked years ago and realized, you know, there's people

00:08:12.920 that may believe in God, but they are not reading their Bibles.

00:08:16.340 And so we decided to try to help solve that problem.

00:08:19.760 And we created an app and we're lucky enough to take it to the apps for the very first day

00:08:25.580 that apps came out.

00:08:26.480 So day number one, our app was there.

00:08:28.920 And as of today, it's grown to, we've given away 346 million free Bible apps.

00:08:35.420 So that's a case of taking what is traditional and constant and unchanging the Bible, but using

00:08:41.180 an innovative way of delivery.

00:08:43.260 And so we believe that the Bible is not just a book that is living, it's truth.

00:08:48.400 And that's kind of a classic example of there's some things we need to keep the same, but how

00:08:54.180 we deliver them, we want to be innovative.

00:08:56.660 I do think in any kind of growing organization, we want to be innovative, but there's no shame

00:09:02.700 in being boring when boring works.

00:09:04.920 There's a lot that we do that's just blocking and tackling day in, day out, week after week,

00:09:10.160 month after month, year after year.

00:09:11.540 There are some things in application and execution that never, ever change, and there's no reason

00:09:17.800 to change them.

00:09:18.680 There are other things that we need to always be breaking, tweaking, improving, shaking,

00:09:24.180 undoing, rebuilding.

00:09:25.760 And I think it takes wisdom and a little bit of nuances to understand what are some of those

00:09:32.480 things, where do we need to tweak and push.

00:09:34.860 And we don't always get it right, but we work hard to.

00:09:37.980 What sorts of things do you guys have kind of kept the same?

00:09:41.540 Over the years.

00:09:43.040 Besides the vision, right?

00:09:45.020 You know, but like I'm talking about on a day-to-day execution level.

00:09:48.500 You know, the game plan of how we engage people has never, ever changed.

00:09:54.760 And I'll give you maybe a little bit more than you want to know, but let's take two different

00:09:59.060 churches in the same community.

00:10:01.100 Great churches.

00:10:01.880 One of them's big, one of them's small.

00:10:03.120 Why do people stay at a small church?

00:10:05.940 The reason they stay there, generally speaking, is because they're needed.

00:10:09.700 There's something they're doing that's valuable.

00:10:11.980 They find value in making a difference.

00:10:14.720 And the second reason is because they feel known.

00:10:16.860 If they miss a weekend, someone says, hey, where were you?

00:10:19.040 They've got relationships.

00:10:20.340 They typically stay at a great small church because they're needed and known.

00:10:24.500 Go to a large church in the same community.

00:10:27.060 Why would they go to that church?

00:10:29.040 Lots of different reasons.

00:10:29.920 It's convenient.

00:10:30.640 It's fun.

00:10:31.100 It's big.

00:10:31.640 There's a lot of activities for their kids.

00:10:33.540 They're making a difference and such.

00:10:35.100 Why would they leave the bigger church?

00:10:36.700 Because they don't feel needed.

00:10:38.740 There's professionals and, you know, more skilled volunteers doing something and there's

00:10:42.680 no place for them.

00:10:43.560 And secondly, they miss three weeks and nobody notices.

00:10:46.180 They don't feel known.

00:10:47.200 So for us, needed and known, those things are massive.

00:10:51.540 From day number one to 23 years in, what we want to do is we want to help people make a

00:10:57.000 difference so they're needed.

00:10:58.200 We want them in community.

00:10:59.740 We want them known.

00:11:01.100 That game plan has never, ever, ever changed.

00:11:03.720 And I don't ever see it changing.

00:11:05.160 It's the basics.

00:11:06.600 We may tweak how we do it, but the what, the goal is crystal clear.

00:11:11.700 And I think any kind of business, nonprofit, there are going to be those things that don't

00:11:16.080 get tired of focusing on the basics.

00:11:17.960 There are certain things that always matter.

00:11:20.020 And those are two things that always matter for us.

00:11:22.880 Yeah.

00:11:22.920 And I think this idea of needed and known, I mean, this applies not just to a church,

00:11:26.140 but also a business or any other organization.

00:11:28.520 I think I've read like the one thing that employees want the most is appreciation.

00:11:34.280 Like they'd rather have that than a raise.

00:11:36.240 They just want to say they just want to be needed and known.

00:11:39.300 Exactly.

00:11:39.700 And I mean, that's why so often, you know, our team members are frustrated, you know,

00:11:44.480 in our organizations where they leave.

00:11:45.980 They don't typically leave bad organizations.

00:11:48.740 Someone else has said this, not my quote.

00:11:50.380 They don't leave bad organizations.

00:11:51.620 They leave bad managers.

00:11:52.900 They don't feel valued.

00:11:53.900 They don't feel appreciated.

00:11:54.780 And so I think those are, those are valuable principles in any organization to help them

00:12:00.000 use their gifts and help them feel valued and cared for.

00:12:03.220 So another problem that organizations encounter as they get larger is that at the beginning,

00:12:09.160 when you're, this is like whether you're a church or a business or a nonprofit or whatever,

00:12:13.180 in the beginning, it's small, it's charismatic, it's agile, that you guys are moving fast,

00:12:18.800 breaking things because you can.

00:12:20.380 But as you get larger, there tends to be a calcification in the institution because you

00:12:25.280 have, I mean, it's sort of the natural process, right?

00:12:27.600 So how do you, as a large organization, stay agile as you continue to grow and add more layers

00:12:34.780 to the organization?

00:12:36.140 That's a really good question.

00:12:37.380 Really important.

00:12:37.960 And we don't always get it right.

00:12:39.580 We were one of the first churches to start going to multiple sites.

00:12:45.520 And we made a lot of mistakes that growing organizations make.

00:12:48.720 When you have a problem, you usually follow with a rule and before long, you get rule

00:12:54.480 heavy and suddenly you can't make decisions.

00:12:56.940 You, what used to take a little time now takes a lot of people to approve something and you

00:13:02.100 start getting bogged down with bureaucracy and too many layers.

00:13:07.500 So midway through, we recognize this was a problem.

00:13:09.900 We fight like crazy to eliminate layers in our leadership organizational chart.

00:13:15.760 I'm not a big fan of managers.

00:13:17.400 I love doers.

00:13:18.520 I don't want people that are just kind of overseeing.

00:13:20.860 We want people engaged, making a difference.

00:13:22.920 And then we just fight against rules.

00:13:25.440 Again, this isn't my original idea, but somebody said basically like 2% of your people are always 1.00

00:13:31.160 going to be idiots. 0.99

00:13:32.380 Don't create rules for those 2%. 1.00

00:13:34.460 Deal directly with those 2%. 1.00

00:13:35.880 The rules we create will slow down the other 98%. 1.00

00:13:39.400 And so we want to fight against unnecessary rules.

00:13:42.820 In my organization, we're all about people.

00:13:45.640 If you're not careful, the rules can be elevated above the love and care for people.

00:13:50.660 We have to fight against that.

00:13:51.920 And then just on a real practical standpoint, Brett, for me, I find a measurement of success

00:13:58.020 is by looking at how deep into the organization you empower people to say yes.

00:14:02.420 If yes, decisions can only be made from the top, then the top is the limit to the progress

00:14:08.140 of the organization.

00:14:09.180 What we want to do is empower the right people, believe in the right people, and push as many

00:14:14.520 decisions deep into the organization as possible.

00:14:17.940 That equips leaders.

00:14:19.160 That helps them get better.

00:14:20.640 That keeps your organization lean and agile.

00:14:23.260 Well, you don't need a lot of meetings.

00:14:25.640 You don't need a lot of upward management to move the ball forward.

00:14:28.580 You push the decision-making power deep into the organization.

00:14:32.420 And again, we don't always get that right, but that's the goal that we're working toward.

00:14:36.180 And how do you train for that, right?

00:14:38.880 I mean, you have to let go, but at the same time, in the beginning, you're letting leaders

00:14:43.160 make decisions.

00:14:44.000 How do you coach them or guide them as they're learning how to make those decisions?

00:14:49.820 Yeah, the way you ask the question is wise.

00:14:52.460 How do you coach and guide them?

00:14:53.780 And that's exactly what you're doing.

00:14:55.700 How do you know if you can trust a person?

00:14:57.920 Well, the best way to find out if you can trust them is to trust them.

00:15:01.540 And John Maxwell always said, if someone can do something 80% as well as you can and delegate

00:15:06.440 it to them, I'm actually getting more aggressive than John is right now.

00:15:10.520 Now, I'm saying if I've got a team member that has momentum and potential, they can do

00:15:15.980 it 50% or 60% as well, but they do have capacity to learn, I want to give it to them and entrust

00:15:24.100 them to grow.

00:15:25.240 One of the biggest limiting factors of any organization is just our desire to control.

00:15:31.240 And this is something I've had to work through.

00:15:33.240 We have to work through it with our leaders.

00:15:34.960 The more we want to control, the more we limit the growth.

00:15:37.380 What we have to do is we have to empower the right people, give away, give away, give

00:15:41.520 away, give away, and let them grow.

00:15:43.920 The bottom line is they don't always get it right.

00:15:47.340 It's often you almost have to go through like a dip of production at times or a slight loss

00:15:52.120 of quality while they're ramping up and they have a learning curve.

00:15:56.620 And we have to have a tolerance for a little bit of the dip to have the capacity for the

00:16:02.760 upside.

00:16:03.160 And that may be, you know, we may not quite get it right for the next three months because

00:16:08.380 we've got people with a learning curve, but those people with time, with coaching, with

00:16:13.520 feedback can one day actually perform better than those who were doing it before.

00:16:17.860 If you select the right people, put them in the right systems and give them the right

00:16:21.600 parameters and coaching.

00:16:22.880 And that's just part of the growing organization.

00:16:26.640 It's not easy.

00:16:27.760 It can be messy.

00:16:28.680 There can be, you know, you can empower the wrong person.

00:16:32.520 You have to backtrack, but you don't grow without risk and risking on people is one of

00:16:38.660 the best risks you can take.

00:16:40.440 And was that hard for you to start letting go?

00:16:42.640 I mean, you started this thing.

00:16:43.640 It was sort of your baby, right?

00:16:45.300 I mean, what point did you, what point with this thing did you just realize like, I had

00:16:49.640 to start letting go of this?

00:16:51.240 Was it very early on?

00:16:52.380 Was it middle, midway?

00:16:53.360 And when you had to make, start letting go, was it really hard for you?

00:16:55.920 It was crazy hard, Brett.

00:16:58.000 So if you can go back in time, we were in our third location in a bike factory.

00:17:03.520 We had probably 400 or so people coming.

00:17:07.060 I couldn't find kind of like what you would call your second person in charge, whatever

00:17:11.760 that role would be.

00:17:13.800 They, we were fragile.

00:17:15.660 We're young.

00:17:16.460 We didn't have the money to pay.

00:17:17.760 People didn't know if we're going to make it or not.

00:17:19.320 I couldn't find that kind of great leader to come along with me.

00:17:22.620 And finally, one day I did.

00:17:24.780 But there's a guy who was a district manager for Target, Jerry Hurley, who's still with

00:17:29.600 me today.

00:17:30.540 He agreed to take a massive pay cut and join our team.

00:17:35.580 And he was on for a few weeks when he had a very respectful conversation with me.

00:17:42.400 And I'll never forget it.

00:17:43.880 But he said something like, you know, you're good at this, you're good at that, you're a

00:17:47.640 highly capable leader.

00:17:48.720 But he said, your need for control is going to be the biggest limiting factor in this organization.

00:17:53.580 And then he just looked at me and he said, if you can trust that I've had experience in

00:17:58.000 areas that you haven't yet and give me the freedom to lead and build, I believe I can

00:18:02.900 help take this organization to the next level.

00:18:05.520 And his words, they stung, but they freed me.

00:18:09.860 And he was so right.

00:18:12.100 So I started giving him more.

00:18:13.640 And this guy who had, you know, here I was a 29, 30-year-old pastor who never led anything

00:18:19.440 significant.

00:18:20.240 And here was a guy who had managed multiple Target stores.

00:18:24.160 He came in and started building systems and training people.

00:18:27.600 And I looked back and started looking around and realized this is, he's doing a lot better

00:18:32.060 than I could do otherwise.

00:18:33.420 It was about that time that I started to get obsessed with empowering people.

00:18:37.960 What I don't want to do is I don't want to delegate tasks.

00:18:41.860 If I delegate tasks, what I'm doing is I'm training people to do what they're told.

00:18:46.720 I'm training them to be followers.

00:18:48.460 What I want to learn to do is I want to delegate authority.

00:18:51.200 Instead of creating followers by delegating authority, I'm creating leaders.

00:18:55.660 I'm giving people the freedom to create.

00:18:57.700 Now, I am, it would scare people to know how hands-off I am and what I don't know.

00:19:05.360 I look at the things that are most important.

00:19:08.620 I'm always have a heart, I'm on the heartbeat of the culture.

00:19:12.320 Are we aligned with mission?

00:19:14.360 Are there certain things that only I can do?

00:19:17.840 But there are hundreds and hundreds of things that people would be shocked that I don't know

00:19:21.860 anything about because I've empowered the right people.

00:19:24.320 And that's one of the principles we talk about is you can have control, you can have growth,

00:19:29.300 but you can't have both.

00:19:30.980 And it's painful.

00:19:32.220 Any entrepreneurial leader loves her work or loves his work that they're starting out with.

00:19:36.540 But to take it to the next level, we have to empower people more than we ever imagined.

00:19:41.040 And then our organizations can end up accomplishing more, growing to heights in places far beyond

00:19:48.660 what we have the capacity to do on our own.

00:19:50.920 Yeah, I love that idea of delegating authority, not task.

00:19:53.180 I think it's a good insight.

00:19:54.820 So you mentioned something interesting there in passing.

00:19:56.520 You talked about you were in a bike factory.

00:19:59.160 So I think this is interesting.

00:20:00.280 So I think a lot of people, when they're starting an organization or a business,

00:20:03.420 they feel like it has to be perfect from the get-go.

00:20:06.820 But with Life.Church, I mean, you were in a garage, you were in a bike factory.

00:20:12.360 I mean, a lot of the times, did you feel like you were just kind of flying by the seat

00:20:15.820 of your pants doing this thing?

00:20:17.300 Always.

00:20:17.620 And even to the point now where we want to guard against – we always want to strive

00:20:23.900 for excellence, but we don't want to – our goal can never be perfection.

00:20:30.820 If it's perfection, what we're going to end up doing is spending too much money in places

00:20:35.760 that don't have a return.

00:20:37.540 We're going to be too cautious in not trying things that are new.

00:20:40.380 We're not going to empower people and let them grow.

00:20:44.220 So we want excellence, but perfection can be the enemy of progress.

00:20:49.640 And so, yes, I mean, to this day, I still wake up and think, how are we going to get

00:20:54.160 it all done?

00:20:55.380 You know, what's our next move?

00:20:57.540 And that's kind of what makes the whole ride fun.

00:21:00.660 We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:21:02.340 And now back to the show.

00:21:05.820 So you're a leader of a big organization, multiple locations, hundreds of employees,

00:21:10.940 tons of moving parts.

00:21:12.720 So much of the time, you're acting like a CEO.

00:21:15.320 But what's interesting about your job, too, is you're a pastor.

00:21:19.340 There's a creative aspect to it.

00:21:20.780 You have to deliver a sermon, a message each week that has to be engaging and impart some

00:21:26.220 message.

00:21:26.640 So there's like a division between, it sounds like, administrative duties and creative duties.

00:21:33.020 How do you prevent administrative duties compromising your ability to access the more creative part

00:21:39.720 of yourself?

00:21:40.500 Does that make sense?

00:21:41.500 Yeah, it's a great question.

00:21:43.040 And I actually appreciate the observation because that's something that a lot of people from

00:21:47.160 the outside don't always notice.

00:21:50.740 So it's almost like two different worlds.

00:21:54.360 There's the creative content, which is a big, big part.

00:21:58.780 And then there's running the organization, which is a really big part.

00:22:02.420 They both have tremendous pressure.

00:22:04.800 And if I'm not careful or others in my role aren't careful, one of them will squeeze out

00:22:11.260 the other and both of them have to happen.

00:22:13.820 So for me, I'll be real practical with you.

00:22:17.020 I fight like crazy against being in too many meetings because so often in our organizations,

00:22:24.340 meetings are not as productive as they need to be.

00:22:27.340 So I want to limit the number of meetings.

00:22:29.520 I want to limit the time in meetings.

00:22:31.080 I want to make sure that the meetings that I'm in need decision making and they're not

00:22:35.420 just informative because there's other ways to get information.

00:22:38.200 So I only have one fixed meeting a week on my calendar.

00:22:41.600 The second thing is, you know, prioritizing is crucial for all of us.

00:22:47.380 We all have more to do than we have time to do it.

00:22:50.100 And so I put artificial deadlines on just about everything that I do.

00:22:54.180 A lot of people talk about, you know, what do you do early in the day that makes you successful?

00:22:58.980 I like to talk about what I do later in the day to make me successful.

00:23:03.120 And that is creating a deadline, which is a quitting time ahead of time.

00:23:06.160 Like today, I will leave the office at 345 like I did yesterday, and I'll go to the gym.

00:23:11.560 And that artificial deadline, which isn't real, one I just put there, what it does is

00:23:15.960 it makes me more focused during the day.

00:23:18.120 I have to delegate things that I probably would do otherwise.

00:23:20.940 I have to say no to some things that I would probably normally do.

00:23:24.360 And I have to make faster decisions.

00:23:26.460 The same is true with a sermon.

00:23:28.180 My sermon is due in my mind at noon on Wednesday every single week.

00:23:33.720 In the history of our church, I've never missed that deadline, although the deadline is only

00:23:38.840 mine.

00:23:39.440 If I didn't have that deadline, I'd work into Wednesday afternoon, into Thursday.

00:23:44.560 I have to clear that off my plate so I can do the administrative part, because until the

00:23:50.720 sermon is, until I feel that relief of completion, I can't focus on the rest.

00:23:55.060 I need half a day on Wednesday and all day on Thursday to focus on the administrative part.

00:24:01.340 And so the artificial deadline creates the boundary that frees me up to do the rest of

00:24:06.100 it.

00:24:06.680 We all have to do that.

00:24:07.780 They're an entrepreneur, a startup business leader.

00:24:11.100 They're going to give me so much.

00:24:12.560 They're doing sales.

00:24:13.560 They're doing systems.

00:24:14.440 They're trying to create budgets.

00:24:16.200 They're trying to find office space.

00:24:18.060 And so literally saying, I've got this much time for certain projects, you become more efficient.

00:24:24.200 If you, Brett, were going on vacation on a Wednesday, somehow you'd get Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,

00:24:30.220 Thursday, Friday's worth of work done by Wednesday.

00:24:32.620 It makes you better.

00:24:34.260 That's kind of what I try to do is put tight boundaries, constraints that help me be creative,

00:24:40.760 more efficient, faster.

00:24:42.460 Yeah.

00:24:42.720 It reminds me, I think, Paul Graham, the guy who does Y Combinator.

00:24:46.240 He has this essay about a maker's schedule and a manager's schedule.

00:24:50.760 I like the maker's like the creative schedule and the manager's schedule is like the administrative

00:24:54.720 schedule.

00:24:55.340 And he says, you can't let the two bleed together or else you'll do both poorly.

00:24:58.940 So you have to kind of keep them separate.

00:25:00.640 I like that.

00:25:01.120 So it sounds like what you're doing.

00:25:03.260 So you've talked about that you've been a workaholic in the past.

00:25:07.480 How did you get a, I mean, so it sounds like one thing you've done to get a handle on that

00:25:10.740 is setting tight deadlines for yourself.

00:25:12.580 Is there anything else you've done to get a manage on pushing yourself too hard?

00:25:16.000 I think, you know, years ago I had some people come to me and say, we feel like you have

00:25:22.360 a problem and they made me go to counseling for being a workaholic and I didn't get a

00:25:28.360 thing out of it.

00:25:29.360 I thought they were lazy.

00:25:30.560 I thought I cared more than they did. 1.00

00:25:31.920 I thought they were all stupid. 1.00

00:25:33.740 And so I wasn't prepared for it. 1.00

00:25:35.740 A few years went by and I realized that they were right.

00:25:39.280 I actually needed help.

00:25:40.640 And so the second time I went to counseling for it, I actually did get, get more out of

00:25:45.100 it.

00:25:45.900 The, uh, my counselor told me, he said, he really stung me.

00:25:49.020 He said, the reason you work so hard is two reasons.

00:25:51.900 One is, is you have a ton of pride.

00:25:54.000 And the other one is because you're not, you're, you're, you're not performing as a strong leader

00:25:58.200 right now.

00:25:58.720 And those words that was like, kind of punched me in the gut.

00:26:02.580 You know, he said, you think you're the only one that can do things.

00:26:05.260 You're prideful.

00:26:06.360 And the second one was, you know, you're not trusting and empowering other people.

00:26:09.760 And that was kind of in the season where our church was stuck and Jerry was coming on and

00:26:15.800 I started, started to empower people.

00:26:17.940 Uh, some things for me that I, I am good at is I'm really good at guarding my, my day off

00:26:25.060 Fridays.

00:26:25.560 I rarely will give those up and I'm good at those.

00:26:29.480 The downside and to just to be real transparent with you is I start really, really early.

00:26:36.560 And so I can bury and kind of hide some of my workaholic tendencies when others may not

00:26:42.600 necessarily see it because I can put in a long day before a lot of people ever get in.

00:26:48.420 So if you ask my wife, am I fully functioning and always healthy?

00:26:53.280 She'd probably giggle a little bit, laugh at you and say, no, would she say that I do

00:26:58.440 prioritize the family and, um, take vacation time and block off the base?

00:27:03.920 She would say, yes, I do.

00:27:06.280 But do I get it right all the time?

00:27:08.160 No, I'm still very dysfunctional and, um, still have lots of problems and, and still can

00:27:13.480 slip back into real long and unhealthy work binges.

00:27:18.000 So it's a work in progress.

00:27:19.760 It's a work in progress.

00:27:20.800 Probably like you, right?

00:27:21.860 Right.

00:27:22.440 No.

00:27:22.740 Yeah, of course.

00:27:23.300 So another challenge that a leader of a large organization faces, you know, is when you first

00:27:29.540 started out as a minister, you know, you were able to minister one-on-one with people on

00:27:34.380 a regular basis.

00:27:35.580 But now that you're a leader of a church with tens of thousands of members, you know, for

00:27:39.060 time reasons, even security reasons, you know, you can't do much one-on-one ministering

00:27:44.480 with people as you did in the early days.

00:27:46.080 So, you know, being a leader of a large organization, whether it's at a corporation or something else

00:27:50.980 can be lonely and isolated.

00:27:53.640 So how do you keep from feeling cordoned off from the rank and file of your church?

00:27:58.920 Yeah, I'll answer that in two different ways.

00:28:00.600 One thing is any type of success in leadership tends to lead toward isolation unless you intentionally

00:28:07.100 fight against that drift.

00:28:09.820 And so just on the relational end, it's incredibly important to work really, really hard to be

00:28:15.700 intentional about keeping relationships intimate and strong.

00:28:19.120 You would know this just as your podcast becomes more successful.

00:28:22.880 As you grow on your business, people start to tell you more what you want to hear, and

00:28:27.200 that's dangerous.

00:28:28.320 And so we have to work really hard to keep honesty and closeness in our relationships.

00:28:34.300 That's one angle.

00:28:35.260 The other end of it is just kind of like the pastoral end.

00:28:39.300 As the church grows, I obviously can't do everything that I did before.

00:28:43.380 But a friend of mine, Andy Stanley, has a teaching.

00:28:47.060 He says, do for one what you wish you could do for all.

00:28:50.900 And I really value doing that.

00:28:53.080 There are so many things that I would love to do for 100 people that I can't, but I 100%

00:28:59.660 do it for one.

00:29:00.820 Almost every weekend at church, there's someone that's sick that knows someone who asks, and

00:29:07.300 we go out and we pray for someone.

00:29:08.640 And there's a teenager that's going through a difficult time, and we stop and we pray for

00:29:12.900 that one.

00:29:13.440 And so we'll set up those kind of meetings, or we'll go do a hospital visit or whatever.

00:29:17.220 And so it's not that I don't do those things.

00:29:21.040 In fact, I still do a lot of them.

00:29:23.640 I just can't do it for all the people.

00:29:25.920 And doing some of that is incredibly important to me, because if I don't, then it kind of

00:29:32.140 robs me of the purity of the whole reason we started this.

00:29:35.600 And so it still works.

00:29:37.180 There are a lot of things I can't do that I wish I could do just from this sheer scope

00:29:44.000 of the size of it.

00:29:44.940 But I'm not going to let that keep me from the joys of doing a few things that really

00:29:50.300 do matter and move the needle on personal fulfillment. 1.00

00:29:54.940 And do I imagine you set aside time on your calendar for that?

00:29:58.200 There's a time where that's what you go do.

00:30:00.540 I do.

00:30:00.860 So when I'm at church, my office hours, they're so jammed.

00:30:06.380 It's hard to describe and hard for most people to understand.

00:30:09.940 There's not much margin in the producing hours.

00:30:13.600 But on the weekends, I've got 30 minutes between every service.

00:30:17.000 And so I'll pack that full of say hi and ministering to people in different ways we can.

00:30:24.100 So I'm already out and kind of like add-ons really work well.

00:30:29.100 So another part of being a leader is receiving criticism.

00:30:32.760 But I think people like ministers, pastors, priests, like they can never do anything right,

00:30:38.320 right?

00:30:38.940 Sermons are either too hard or too soft, or you said you shouldn't have said X or you

00:30:43.380 should have said Y.

00:30:44.480 How do you deal with the onslaught of feedback and criticism that you might receive because

00:30:51.840 of your position?

00:30:52.880 I think anybody in leadership and not just coaches and you on your podcast, you certainly

00:31:00.340 get it as well.

00:31:01.820 And especially in the age of social media, people have access to criticize faster.

00:31:09.100 And so it is there.

00:31:10.600 On one hand, we have to always be open to learn from it.

00:31:16.120 And there have been multiple times where critics have been right or somewhat right.

00:31:21.960 And I've had to actually humble myself and say, that is a really, really fair point.

00:31:26.560 And it's still humbling how often I have to do that.

00:31:30.600 So I need to make sure that I don't write off all criticism as bad criticism.

00:31:35.620 I need to ask myself, is there any truth to it?

00:31:37.740 A lot of times, it just is uninformed criticism.

00:31:41.740 It's by people that are hurting and they're going to take shots at anyone they can.

00:31:46.040 For me, I'm not going to say that it never bothers me.

00:31:49.480 It sometimes does.

00:31:51.160 But the more on my game I am, in other words, the more I'm obsessed with the mission, the

00:31:56.080 easier it is to tolerate some of the unjustified criticism.

00:31:59.240 And so it helps me to be focused, to be driven, to really be heads down, doing what I know

00:32:06.420 matters.

00:32:07.500 And then I can kind of just take it as part of the game.

00:32:10.020 It's when I'm off my game, when I'm kind of maybe feeling sorry for myself or have my

00:32:15.740 eye a little bit off the real target, that it can get under my skin and such.

00:32:20.000 At that point, I just have a no response rule.

00:32:23.160 Well, unless it's someone that I know, if it's just social media, I just let it go.

00:32:28.880 I never, I'm not going to engage with it.

00:32:30.760 I'm not going to feed that and give them the satisfaction knowing that I saw it.

00:32:34.320 And so I'm just going to keep my head down and try to keep going.

00:32:38.460 Yeah.

00:32:38.520 I think Dwight Eisenhower had this rule.

00:32:40.480 It says, don't deal with personalities or don't deal in personalities.

00:32:43.820 Sort of like no response rule to personal attacks.

00:32:46.780 So that idea of like, how do you figuring out which criticism you should pay attention

00:32:51.220 to and which one you should ignore?

00:32:53.020 Like, how do you make that decision?

00:32:54.700 I would say for one thing, context matters.

00:32:57.540 You know, there are some people that, that like, if, if someone that really loves me is

00:33:04.260 pointing something out, I'm going to listen to that a lot more than just some random stranger

00:33:09.140 who's tweeting and in all caps with misspelled words at me, you know?

00:33:13.380 And also, if I hear something a lot, there are some categories of criticism where people

00:33:19.660 are, they're always going to hate megachurch pastors or whatever.

00:33:22.060 So I'm not going to let that raise a flag.

00:33:25.680 But if it's something else that, you know, like for, if we go back years ago, I heard

00:33:31.120 a lot of people in the church say, hey, you're being too crude in your humor when you're

00:33:36.240 preaching.

00:33:36.740 And I thought, you know, you guys are just, you don't have a good sense of humor, but I

00:33:40.460 heard it enough that it started to raise my awareness.

00:33:46.000 And then one week, my daughter was old enough to come into kind of big church and I was about

00:33:51.380 to tell a joke about, I actually wouldn't want her to hear that.

00:33:54.720 And so suddenly kind of the clouds lifted and I realized, okay, all these people are right.

00:33:59.360 I really need to, I need to, I need to be a little cleaner in that and more God honoring

00:34:05.540 in the way I would use humor.

00:34:07.540 And so I think it's, you know, who does it tends to matter.

00:34:11.840 And then if you hear it enough for more than one person or from a lot of people, then it

00:34:17.060 might be time to say, they might, they might have something I should pay attention to.

00:34:21.220 Let's talk about leading volunteers.

00:34:23.400 So you have, you know, paid staff on hand, but a lot of the day-to-day stuff at your church

00:34:27.880 is done by volunteers.

00:34:29.020 How do you, how do you keep these people motivated and reliable for work?

00:34:34.640 You know, even though, cause they're not obligated to work, they're not getting a paycheck, you

00:34:37.620 know, so they decide not to show up, right?

00:34:40.460 There, nothing's really going to happen.

00:34:42.720 So how do you keep volunteers motivated and to keep working?

00:34:47.380 You know, in any, in any type of relationship with volunteers or with, with staff, they, they

00:34:53.900 want to know two things.

00:34:55.360 They want to know that we notice and that we care.

00:34:58.220 And so anytime we can say, I noticed what you're doing, it really matters and help them

00:35:03.740 feel that that goes a long, long way.

00:35:06.940 And, and letting them know that you value what they do matters in, in motivating and appreciating

00:35:12.180 people.

00:35:12.840 One thing that I always try to say is, is that appreciate more than you think you should.

00:35:18.980 So what you want to do is you want to kind of almost be like uncomfortable, like I've done

00:35:23.320 enough now, appreciate more than you think you should, then double it.

00:35:27.560 Whenever you hit that point where you're starting to feel uncomfortable, realize you're not even

00:35:30.680 halfway there yet.

00:35:32.620 And so with volunteers, it's going to be everything from thank you notes, thank you notes, thank

00:35:37.460 you notes, thank you notes.

00:35:38.460 I'm a big believer in pen to paper and send it in the mail, the old fashioned way and say,

00:35:43.700 thank you.

00:35:45.320 Slightly lazier yet still semi-effective ways, texting, phone calls, sharing stories, letting

00:35:52.100 them in on inside information, just being kind of on the inside is motivating.

00:35:57.120 Ultimately connecting what they do to a higher calling really matters.

00:36:01.780 Then we kind of move from motivating to inspiring.

00:36:05.700 Motivating implies we're having to push them.

00:36:07.780 Inspiring is helping it come from within, from in spirit, inspire.

00:36:12.020 And so if we can help pull out that desire to use our gifts to contribute to something greater,

00:36:16.840 that really matters.

00:36:17.920 At the end of the day, we want to help connect what they do with making a real difference.

00:36:23.860 And then there's a real sense of satisfaction.

00:36:26.240 We noticed, we care, and what they do matters.

00:36:29.100 And people will line up to be a part of something that's bigger than themselves when, when others

00:36:34.440 care and together we get to do something significant, significant and special.

00:36:38.100 Right.

00:36:38.260 It all goes back to needed and noticed.

00:36:40.360 Needed, right.

00:36:40.820 Needed and known.

00:36:41.320 You're right.

00:36:41.880 Needed and known.

00:36:42.400 So another job as a leader is providing a vision for your organization.

00:36:47.700 How far advanced do you plan for the organization you lead?

00:36:52.920 Is it five years, 10 years, even longer?

00:36:55.900 Yeah.

00:36:56.600 So I, I used to kind of set like five year goals and my, my philosophy has really changed

00:37:03.660 quite a bit.

00:37:04.280 The, the, I think it's because the world has changed so much now the pace of change, it's

00:37:11.640 becoming more rapid every single day.

00:37:13.680 So my ability to predict or project five years in the future is, is so much smaller than,

00:37:21.660 than it was in the past.

00:37:23.280 And in fact, what I found was I, I generally would undershoot what was possible and under

00:37:28.860 plan what we were able to do.

00:37:30.600 So now instead of projecting five years out in the future, what we're, we're really passionate

00:37:35.520 about doing is creating a lot of margin now for opportunities that we cannot predict.

00:37:41.800 I, I don't know what new technology is going to be available in five years.

00:37:46.200 I don't know what new team members I'm going to have.

00:37:48.320 And I'm not honestly a big believer in outcome goals.

00:37:52.880 I'll give you a few, like in my world, what multi-site pastors will say is we want to start

00:37:58.580 20 churches by the year 2020. 0.83

00:38:01.040 I actually think it's a really stupid goal because if you're going to start 20, you might 0.96

00:38:06.600 start eight of them that were the wrong ones. 0.99

00:38:09.980 You, you went too soon.

00:38:11.280 You went too early.

00:38:12.080 You didn't have the team.

00:38:12.980 You didn't have the money.

00:38:13.720 You didn't have the right places.

00:38:14.980 You weren't developed enough in your philosophy.

00:38:17.800 You didn't have the structure. 1.00

00:38:18.840 And so you let a goal drive you to do something stupid. 0.99

00:38:21.640 I don't want to ever have a numerical goal drive me to something unwise or premature. 0.95

00:38:27.640 So instead of saying, I want to do 20 by 2020, I want to do the right number of the next year.

00:38:33.060 I might stretch myself some saying, you know, we were planning on three, let's try for four,

00:38:38.840 but I don't want to do four if it's not right.

00:38:41.380 What I do want to do is I want to have the right inputs that will lead to the right outcome.

00:38:45.960 Meaning, okay, we need to be developing leaders.

00:38:48.760 If we're going to start four campuses next year, how many leaders do we need?

00:38:52.900 Then let's start there with the leaders.

00:38:54.880 If we're going to pay cash for the buildings, how much money do we need to raise and save

00:38:59.300 ahead of time?

00:39:00.240 If we're going to grow from, you know, 31 locations to 37, do we need a structural change?

00:39:06.160 Let's change the structure today before it breaks so that we can sustain the growth in

00:39:11.160 the future.

00:39:12.100 So rather than looking way out in the distance and trying to project when we usually get it

00:39:17.780 wrong, what I want to do is stay real current.

00:39:20.900 And I also want to prepare and plan knowing that there are opportunities that are going

00:39:25.040 to come.

00:39:25.440 There may be a piece of land that I didn't see was coming.

00:39:28.640 There might be three staff members we want to hire that we didn't know were going to be

00:39:31.780 available.

00:39:32.560 There may be a new technology that we want to leverage and we didn't see that technology

00:39:36.120 coming.

00:39:36.600 So I want to have margin financially.

00:39:39.320 I want to have margin with my people.

00:39:40.920 I want to have personal capacity margin to take something else on.

00:39:45.840 And so instead of planning, we're more planning for something specific.

00:39:51.140 We're planning for something that we don't know what it is.

00:39:53.560 And then we're going to seize those opportunities when they come.

00:39:56.340 Maybe a non-traditional may not work in every business, probably wouldn't, but it served us

00:40:02.260 well.

00:40:02.800 And I'm pretty passionate about continuing to lead that way, at least for now.

00:40:05.580 So yeah, it sounds like you're being conservative in the short term, right?

00:40:09.680 You might not spend as much as you maybe could so that you could be aggressive when the opportunity

00:40:15.140 arises because you have that extra capital, whether it's human or financial.

00:40:18.900 I think, yeah, I think growing at the right pace is really, really important.

00:40:24.380 You can, my gosh, you can grow too fast and end up compromising your ability to do something

00:40:30.280 significant later.

00:40:31.220 At the same time, you can be too cautious.

00:40:34.080 And in my world, we call that, you know, burying your talents and not, and that's not something

00:40:40.100 that's looked favorably upon.

00:40:42.640 So we want to be, we want to be wise.

00:40:44.980 We want to be strategic.

00:40:46.200 But the thing to remember is now with as fast as the world is changing, there are opportunities

00:40:52.600 that are coming that none of us could have predicted.

00:40:55.680 I can guarantee you 10 years ago, you aren't projecting to have a podcast that's doing what

00:41:00.040 it's doing now.

00:41:00.600 It's a, it's a different category that didn't exist.

00:41:03.180 And so you're able to seize it two years from now that your podcast might evolve into something

00:41:09.100 that's not even on the radar yet.

00:41:11.340 You can't plan for it, but you can be prepared for that opportunity that's coming, whatever

00:41:16.380 it is and jump on it when it's there.

00:41:18.360 Well, Craig, this has been a great conversation.

00:41:20.060 You, is there some place people can go to learn more about your insights on leadership

00:41:23.100 and whatnot?

00:41:23.960 I have a, uh, uh, leadership podcast.

00:41:26.280 It's just called the Craig Rochelle Leadership Podcast.

00:41:28.800 And, uh, we drop at least one podcast every month, unlike you that drop them all the time

00:41:33.120 because you're much better at getting out content faster than I am.

00:41:36.840 Well, you know, I'm also not a pastor, so you're, you're a busy man.

00:41:41.380 Well, Hey, Craig, thanks so much for coming on.

00:41:42.940 This has been a great conversation.

00:41:44.200 Hey, thanks so much for having me.

00:41:45.400 I'm a big fan of what you're doing.

00:41:46.740 Keep up the good work.

00:41:47.460 Thanks for providing valuable content for all of us.

00:41:49.780 My guest today was Craig Rochelle.

00:41:51.080 He's the head pastor at Life Church.

00:41:53.100 You can listen to his podcast and leadership.

00:41:55.200 Just search Craig Rochelle Leadership Podcast, or you can go to life.church slash leadership

00:42:00.600 podcast to listen to it there.

00:42:02.360 Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash grochelle.

00:42:05.660 That's G-R-O-E-S-C-H-E-L. 1.00

00:42:08.280 Where you can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:42:21.080 Well, that wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:42:26.400 For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website

00:42:29.460 at artofmanliness.com.

00:42:30.660 And if you enjoy the show, you've gotten something out of it.

00:42:32.600 I'd appreciate if you take one minute to give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher.

00:42:35.700 It helps out a lot.

00:42:36.520 And if you've done that already, thank you.

00:42:38.220 Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you would think

00:42:40.860 would get something out of it.

00:42:41.740 As always, thank you for your continued support.

00:42:43.620 And until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.

00:42:51.080 Thank you.

The Art of Manliness - November 12, 2018

#457： Leadership Lessons From the Pastor of One of America's Most Innovative Churches

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