The Art of Manliness - #466： What It's Like to Become a Widower

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast what's it like

00:00:19.480 for a man to lose the person at the very center of his life his wife maybe you know firsthand

00:00:24.520 because you've lost a spouse yourself or maybe you know a friend or a family member who's a

00:00:28.740 widower and have wondered what he's going through and how to help him or maybe you're just curious

00:00:32.280 about what this journey is like should you heaven forbid become a widower one day yourself no matter

00:00:37.180 which group you fall into we could all benefit from understanding more about the journey widowers

00:00:41.020 take through loss grief and the effort to establish a new life here today to walk us through this

00:00:45.000 process is herb noel who lost his wife himself and has dedicated his life to helping his fellow

00:00:49.320 widowers herb is the founder of the widower support network which provides free advice and resources

00:00:53.420 to men who've lost their spouses and the author of the book the widower's journey today on the show

00:00:57.480 we discuss herb's own experience of becoming a widower how and why he found that there were

00:01:01.160 few resources available specifically focused on helping men deal with the loss of their wives

00:01:05.140 and how that catalyzed him in creating such resources himself we then get into the different

00:01:09.020 issues widowers face including loneliness isolation depression a decline in their own physical health

00:01:14.300 poor decision making and how and why these issues can manifest themselves differently in men than in

00:01:19.080 women herb also shares tips on what family and friends could do to support a widower the months after

00:01:23.160 his spouse dies we then discuss what dating and marriage is like for a widower including when the time

00:01:27.560 is right to start dating again and how to handle a second marriage with kids both financially and

00:01:31.820 psychologically after the show's over check out our show notes at aom.is slash widowers journey and herb

00:01:37.320 joins me now via clearcast.io herb noel welcome to the show well thank you so much it's good to be with

00:01:53.880 you today so you published a book the widower's journey and you've also become an advocate sort of

00:01:59.400 helping other widowers navigate this transition from you know to becoming a widower before we get to that

00:02:05.940 let's talk about your story of when you became a widower what happened there uh it was uh december

00:02:13.620 2004 on the 23rd of the month my wife happened to be her birthday she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer

00:02:22.420 she was 49 years old and our lives changed forever after that um it included 39 months of surgery

00:02:33.700 chemotherapy chemo radiation trips to places like md anderson in houston and vanderbilt medical center

00:02:42.020 in nashville and at the end of 39 months we lost her she was 52 years old and she lasted actually quite

00:02:51.540 a bit longer than the average pancreatic cancer patient does but it caused me to take a journey that

00:02:58.260 i never wanted to take and i took a lot of notes mental and otherwise and following all of that i

00:03:06.980 went looking for help one day i did so because i was in the banking field and i had an employee walk into

00:03:14.980 my office four months after my wife died and she looked at me and she said the entire floor

00:03:20.180 missus your laughter and then i realized that i probably needed some help i was going in at four

00:03:28.260 in the morning going home at eight at night and that was pretty much my life so i went to my church

00:03:36.740 i went to the veterans administration because i'm a disabled vet and i went to barnes and noble and i

00:03:44.100 asked the gentleman at barnes and noble what do you have for a widower he typed widower into his

00:03:50.980 search engine and looked up at me and said mister i don't have a damn thing for you 0.78

00:03:56.820 well following all that i decided somebody better write a book for men

00:04:03.460 and actually he was wrong there were some books out there but there was nothing

00:04:07.300 that satisfied my thirst and very few written by men so i within a few months decided to leave my 38

00:04:18.100 year career and rededicate my life to serving widowers and those who love them and it's been

00:04:26.820 an interesting journey and a rewarding journey ever since and frankly it's the best thing i've ever done

00:04:31.540 i imagine that and i thought that was interesting you talk about in the book that yeah you went to

00:04:36.260 barnes and noble looking for books and there really wasn't anything out there for widowers i'm

00:04:41.220 curious where are there books out there a lot of more books out there for widows than there are for 1.00

00:04:45.780 widowers oh absolutely in fact i spent the next nine years researching my book and had an agent out of

00:04:54.820 new york and all that and we paraded a manuscript around to over 30 different publishers about 18 of

00:05:02.580 them showed some level of interest but a couple of them were were interesting these they were candid

00:05:08.420 enough and honest enough to say we don't think men buy books so we're not going to do a book about

00:05:15.380 widowers we are going to do another book this year for widows however so they think that the widow market

00:05:22.900 is much stronger my response to them was men certainly can't buy what's not on the shelf 0.66

00:05:29.540 so as it turns out i self-published and there's lots of reasons why you want to do that instead of

00:05:35.620 having a publisher anyways and that was a good decision as well but there's very little out there

00:05:42.420 a lot of it's written by academics from some university perspective uh some think tank somewhere

00:05:49.540 or it's one man's journey you know he tells his story his journal that to me is not what men want what men

00:05:57.380 want is answers men act because they're fixers they face a problem and they want to put a remedy on it 0.91

00:06:06.580 and i love telling the story of my brother my brother don was traveling with his wife kathy

00:06:13.460 and kathy said the little boy behind me is kicking the back of my airline seat well my brother did what

00:06:20.420 every man would do he leaned over the top of the seat and told the young man behind it to knock it off

00:06:25.060 well kathy leaned over to my brother again and said what'd you do that for he said well you you said he

00:06:31.460 was kicking your seat and she said well yes but i didn't want you to do anything i just wanted you to

00:06:36.340 know about it well men aren't like that men want answers even if they're 80 right or 70 right they'll try

00:06:45.540 it and that's and that's a little bit risky because men are vulnerable when they become widowers because of

00:06:51.860 that very behavior so when i wrote my book i didn't attack it as my story my journey or that of any one

00:07:00.740 person rather i took on the issues of the day and i had 40 men from across the country who were brave

00:07:08.580 enough to share their stories with me and share their innermost secrets and their tears and their grief

00:07:16.260 and their best practices and we dissected the issues of the day that what it was faced and then we

00:07:24.340 elaborated by sharing how that one problem whether it be financial or religion or health or relationships or

00:07:31.780 their career or whatever the issue is how it impacted a few men and then on top of all that we brought in a team of

00:07:40.260 experts who made even further analysis of what that issue is all about and how men can go after

00:07:46.820 it and it's been very successful as a result of that so it's a very tactical book it's a very

00:07:52.420 strategic book that men can pick up grab an idea and put it back down and pick it up again in a month

00:07:59.140 from now when they have another problem well let's talk about the need for a book like this or a resource

00:08:04.580 like this for widowers because you start off the book talking about some of the unique problems that

00:08:10.660 widowers face with you know you list all these statistics can you walk us through some of those

00:08:14.580 numbers and you know and talk about why widowers have that those those problems well depending on 1.00

00:08:20.740 what research you look at there's approximately 2.7 million widowers in america there are 420 000

00:08:29.140 new widowers in america alone each year and it's interesting very few people can name even one

00:08:36.420 widower they may they'll pause and then they'll say oh wait a minute i do know one and he lives down

00:08:43.220 the street or he's in the next department at work but they don't come top of mind because widowers 0.98

00:08:49.460 live in the shadows they're not out front they're they're more reserved because basically they're told

00:08:55.940 that that boys don't cry since the time they're able to crawl and walk and they go off to war they

00:09:02.100 commit horrific acts in conflict and they don't even talk about it when they get home because men don't 1.00

00:09:08.820 think that anybody cares and that it's not manly to reveal those kind of feelings so some of the other

00:09:18.420 facts are that the suicide rate among widowers is three or four times greater than that of married men

00:09:26.740 they have an increased rate of diabetes hypertension and heart attacks because they abuse themselves

00:09:33.540 after all it's the wives that keep us healthy it's the wives that make sure we eat right that we get 1.00

00:09:39.780 exercise that we get our psas checked once in a while it's the wives that do all that and if the man happens 1.00

00:09:46.500 to be a caregiver of a terminally ill wife then he's even less likely to get any medical attention if he

00:09:54.820 feels an ache or pain and then finally when he when the extra pain get more severe it may be too late

00:10:02.340 now he's got a problem so men abuse themselves on their health and that's a big risk for men a very

00:10:10.020 big risk and also the you know going on that statistic of depression and suicide a big factor

00:10:16.500 in that is men or widowers become very lonely because the wives are often the social linchpin

00:10:21.380 right they're the ones who created the social life no that's no question about it wives keep the social 1.00

00:10:26.580 calendar sometimes we wish they wouldn't sometimes they overdo it and they line us up on our calendars for

00:10:34.340 things that we don't even want to go to but we sort of follow along well when that's gone there's nobody

00:10:41.300 to do that for us and after a week or two maybe three after the passing of your spouse all the

00:10:49.220 well-wishers the ones who ran to your to your aid to your side at that dark moment suddenly go back to

00:10:56.020 their lives and suddenly it becomes very very quiet one of the men in my book there's 40 in all

00:11:06.660 used to be a lieutenant colonel in the air force he was a career officer

00:11:11.620 and when his wife died he's a man of great faith and i asked him oh he became a priest so i asked him

00:11:20.100 what's the worst part about being a priest he said the same thing that is the worst part about being

00:11:27.300 a widower when you go home at night and it's dead silent he said the same thing happens in the priest

00:11:35.060 will you know he said actually he said the priests are fussed over by everybody all day but when we go

00:11:39.220 home there's nothing there's one man who's in my book he tells me that he plays cooking shows in the

00:11:46.660 background in his house all day the cooking channel the food channel or whatever those

00:11:51.380 channels are called because he doesn't want drama in his life and he can't stand the silence so he

00:11:57.300 listens to cooking shows so this the silence is definite and that's helps depression and other

00:12:06.980 things happen and a lot of them aren't very good was that pretty deaf like do you notice that silence 0.81

00:12:13.060 you know right away when you became when your wife passed away i noticed uh brett i'll tell you

00:12:18.180 my wife died at 9 15 on a friday night in san antonio texas we had just moved there about six months

00:12:25.220 earlier i changed jobs with another bank and the nurse comes in them into the room 15 minutes later and

00:12:34.740 says what are you going to do with her remains and i said i don't know i just moved into town i i've got

00:12:40.820 to figure it out and the nurse said well you have to remove her remains by midnight because your

00:12:45.140 insurance doesn't cover her after midnight i said well don't you have a morgue and she said no

00:12:50.980 so i literally in 2008 got a phone directory out and went through yellow pages looking for somebody to

00:12:57.460 come and pick up my wife and when i left that hospital that night and i walked across that parking

00:13:03.780 out to my car it was the loneliest walk i ever made and when i walked into my house that night

00:13:10.500 and i could still smell her perfume in the house and but i i caught the silence right away and it was

00:13:20.020 unpleasant and stayed that way for a while well let's let's talk about that grieving process

00:13:27.620 as you talk to these the men in this book and also the experts did you discover that men grieve

00:13:33.860 differently than women do or widowers grieve differently than widows do uh the professionals

00:13:40.100 will tell you in full disclosure i'm not a licensed anything i'm just a widower but the professionals

00:13:47.940 will tell you that grief is grief but the difference is that ladies are more social and that men have egos 1.00

00:13:57.300 and that get in the way and as a result of that they become isolated my ministry became the subject of

00:14:06.580 a play of two act 15 scene play that actually i was very pleased to see it won best new play of the

00:14:14.020 year in upstate new york last year and the most impressive scene in the play is a man sitting in his

00:14:21.460 recliner looking at his tv changing the station with a tv dinner laying on his belly and he falls asleep

00:14:29.380 that way he never speaks a word that's his life that's his life he goes home to an empty house

00:14:37.140 and he's he's reluctant to ask for help because after all he's a man he shouldn't need that and

00:14:44.260 people say things like well why isn't he back in the game yet how come he hasn't gotten over it after

00:14:49.540 all it's been three weeks or four weeks and people say ridiculous things so these men become very

00:14:55.620 isolated very quickly and i'll tell you there was in addition to the 40 men that were in my book

00:15:02.260 there were three men who backed out and you know and i was calling them regularly over a nine-year

00:15:07.620 period doing my research and my editor said let's find out why these three men backed out

00:15:15.140 so i called the first one and he said herb it's just simply too painful to have these conversations

00:15:20.980 with you i understand the second gentleman says to me herb my new girlfriend doesn't want like it when

00:15:29.620 i even talk about my deceased wife so i told him to get a new girlfriend

00:15:34.500 the third man actually said to me it's not manly to have these discussions with you

00:15:43.540 and therein lies the problem that men don't feel that they have permission to grieve

00:15:52.660 in one of my speaking engagements in connecticut one of the men in the room was a former captain of a

00:15:59.460 nuclear powered submarine and yet when he lost his wife he needed to talk to somebody he could run a

00:16:07.700 submarine an attack submarine but when he lost his bride he needed help and men it's so hard for men to

00:16:16.420 ask for that help and that's what i do all day long is i help men actually beyond north america now and i

00:16:24.420 do it free of charge i mean are there support groups out there for widowers just for widowers

00:16:30.660 mine is for widowers and those who love them so if there is a child i i have children that call me

00:16:37.940 and they're worried about dad i have ladies call me who are dating widowers i have siblings call me

00:16:44.900 i'll tell you a funny story there was one lady who called me and she didn't like that the man she was 0.97

00:16:50.980 seen goes online and leaves messages for his deceased wife in a chat room and i said

00:16:59.220 well does he take out billboards along the highway talking about his deceased wife no does he talk

00:17:05.620 about her in front of other people all the time at parties and other places no and i said so he found

00:17:11.460 his little place where he can grieve and he can do it discreetly privately he's grieving i said you can't

00:17:18.180 expect the grief to go away just because he found you there's still the pain you still had the loss

00:17:24.500 and after a while i said actually i think he should have more questions about you and she said why is

00:17:29.940 that i said well you were married before and your marriage ended in divorce you know so he he loved

00:17:37.620 his wife to the end he cared for his wife to the very end you know that's an attribute that i think most

00:17:42.980 people would like to have in a mate and she said you made your point and she dropped her concern so

00:17:51.620 i'm sorry the last question was just i mean where there are there support groups for widowers and it

00:17:56.100 sounds like oh yes there are yeah there sounds like there are and uh a lot of them are faith-based

00:18:02.420 you can go to churches different you know places like hospice have support groups but there aren't a

00:18:08.740 lot for men men have to search a little bit deeper but they are out there in small numbers i'm

00:18:16.500 certainly available to anybody and i'm happy to be of service but they can go to places like grief

00:18:22.660 share which is a well-known program that's all over the country it's in most of christian churches

00:18:30.100 the men will find that for every man that attends there'll be four or five women that attend so

00:18:34.660 they'll be outnumbered the challenge is will the men open up in front of women and men tend not to

00:18:42.660 do that they go and they sit there and they'll let the women do all the talking and most of the 1.00

00:18:47.700 instructors are ladies and sometimes men are slow to take the instruction from a lady even though it may

00:18:55.540 be good instruction but there's just the sense that she doesn't understand so men like to come to men and

00:19:04.980 i recognize that earlier this year like never before and while i've had a facebook page for a long time

00:19:13.860 for my organization which is the widower support network i created a second facebook page just for

00:19:20.980 men and the only men i allow on there are either caregivers of very seriously ill women

00:19:27.060 widowed men or good-hearted men who want to help these gentlemen and we don't let any women have 1.00

00:19:35.540 access to that facebook page and i can tell you it has been a major hit the men open up they share

00:19:43.220 their their deepest concerns their most private concerns and other men who are in the same boat rush to their

00:19:50.100 rescue and encourage them daily we have interactions with these men every single day i have men in

00:19:57.940 nigeria in turkey and as far away as australia on that facebook page and they are constantly helping

00:20:04.660 each other and we talk about everything we talk sports we talk money on mondays we talk about their health

00:20:11.620 on wednesday we have music videos we talk gardening we talk about cooking for one we talk about estate

00:20:17.620 planning we talk about grief we talk about religion not that we preach to anybody but in fact we celebrate all

00:20:25.060 faiths on friday we celebrate the jewish community on sundays we celebrate the

00:20:29.620 the christian community and we turn nobody away and no topic is off limits and the men just love it

00:20:37.620 because it's only men that they're talking to so i imagine okay if you are a widower first step is

00:20:44.500 reach out find some help don't try to do it alone but let's let's let's talk to the people who may be

00:20:50.620 friends and family of a widower what can they do to help and support and should they i mean i think a lot

00:20:56.580 of times even with just death in general when someone dies people are just really reluctant to

00:21:01.060 reach out because it's you know death it's awkward i don't know people don't know how to handle it

00:21:06.180 what can friends and family members of widowers do to help and support these guys uh they can do a lot

00:21:12.260 first of all and i will tell you people do say silly things i had a vice president in the bank

00:21:19.460 where i worked walked up to me and she asked me a few questions following my wife's passing it was my

00:21:25.620 first day back to work 10 days after my wife's death and at then as she's getting ready to leave

00:21:31.540 me she says i want to introduce you to my aunt well my wife sarah you know uh memorial service hadn't

00:21:40.260 even taken place yet so i said well that's not going to happen i walked away in retrospect i know she

00:21:46.340 was well-intentioned and she and she didn't know what to say because for some reason in our society we

00:21:54.020 don't talk about death we don't talk about being prepared for death and in fact one man in the book

00:22:00.180 again john vandahar john said to me one time i asked him what's the best thing that happened to you when

00:22:10.020 when you were grieving and he said when i told my family and friends i'm fine leave me alone with my

00:22:17.620 thoughts they ignored my instructions and forced their way into my life and i'm so grateful that they

00:22:24.740 did people think men are different than women and if for some reason we don't need help we need a lot of

00:22:32.580 help because we're extremely vulnerable and we are making impulsive bad decisions again because we're fixers

00:22:41.620 and i'll give you another example there was a gentleman who attended one of my talks and i was

00:22:48.660 talking about predator women and he comes up to me afterwards and he said i need to share something with

00:22:54.100 you and your readers he said i'm a victim of a predator he said after my wife died i remarried too soon

00:23:02.020 and the woman i married spent 1.2 million dollars of mine in 24 months and and they ended in divorce

00:23:12.340 but again he he was isolated and vulnerable so the family members you know it's in everybody's best

00:23:19.940 interest to reach out to that man to knock on that door when you think oh otherwise i don't want to

00:23:26.260 bother you no please do please do stop by you'll also find that a lot of men don't get invited to

00:23:32.740 things you know whether it be parties even from close friends because they are they feel like they're

00:23:38.500 the third leg on a stool well you need to invite them out and let them find their own comfort zone

00:23:45.060 you need to talk about to the deceased if that's what he wants to talk about celebrate her life by living

00:23:51.460 his life but get it i try to get the man to frankly practice his faith if he has a faith

00:23:59.220 talk to professional counselors make sure that he's healthy that he's not run down he's not depressed

00:24:05.380 the number one thing i tell every widower to do is to see a medical doctor his chances are very good

00:24:13.540 he's abused himself in some fashion either through neglect or else with purpose like alcohol or illegal

00:24:20.980 drugs or something like that and that's why you can't leave a widower alone because they are too 0.97

00:24:27.060 vulnerable and i would encourage employers society family members neighbors everybody needs to do their

00:24:33.460 part and today it's not going to happen all by itself and not not unless somebody decides it's going

00:24:40.180 to happen because they're just the way society is built in corporations as an example if you have a

00:24:47.380 loss in your family if you're grieving whether it be a spouse a child or a parent or whatever corporations

00:24:53.620 send you off to their eap program and you go see a psychologist three times for one hour

00:24:59.620 well that's not going to do it that's not enough they need more than that and then corporations sort of

00:25:04.420 wash their hands of it and want to know why the person you know isn't performing top of their game on the job

00:25:09.860 you know and i'm even working on a study right now where i work with the international grief institute

00:25:18.580 and you know we've figured out from the other research that corporations lose 75 billion dollars a

00:25:24.260 year on grief because they don't address it properly and there's lots of different discussion points on

00:25:30.020 that we can chat about that another time if you like but by all means the men are vulnerable and nobody

00:25:36.100 should leave them alone they're at risk we're going to take a quick break for your word from our

00:25:40.020 sponsors and now back to the show and i imagine the thing friends and family need to really be

00:25:47.140 cognizant of is i think them they might give a lot of attention right in the aftermath of the death of

00:25:53.140 the spouse but then months later like you said earlier people just their lives move on and they just

00:25:58.340 forget about this guy and like you can't forget right because he still needs help he still needs help

00:26:05.060 and and grief doesn't go away grief takes on new dimensions new forms as an example i found love a

00:26:16.820 second time and i am happily married i am a fulfilled man and i love my wife her name is maria as much as i

00:26:26.100 love my deceased wife one love does not take anything away from the previous love it doesn't diminish at one

00:26:32.980 iota if people don't believe that that's possible look at all the people who remarry after a divorce

00:26:39.060 well they love their divorced partner at one point and they learn to love somebody else later so the

00:26:45.620 human heart will heal over time and it takes effort on the part of the man and a lot of a lot of men like

00:26:54.580 i said they're reluctant to ask for help and they're impulsive and they make a whole bunch of bad choices

00:26:58.740 what were some of the surprising challenges you encountered as you adjusted to becoming a widower

00:27:05.780 like you know you thought about like i didn't think i'd have this problem but you had that problem

00:27:09.460 i'm pretty domesticated so

00:27:15.620 i've been living on my own since i was 18 so i'm pretty i can handle a lot of that but frankly a lot

00:27:20.820 of men can't the thing that also surprised me is universally every single man i've talked to

00:27:29.780 has some level of regret that they're living with i have regrets about my wife and that i wish i would

00:27:38.900 have done different things on different days whether you whether it's you tell her you love her whether

00:27:43.780 you take her to her favorite restaurant whether you paid attention to her when she was talking or

00:27:49.220 complaining about her aches and pains i have one man right now who says i'm not convinced i got my

00:27:54.340 wife or found the the best medical care possible for her and i'm living with that guilt every single

00:28:01.300 man has some level of guilt and it you can't erase that so that's always going to be in place and

00:28:10.180 over time you're you're i've i've discovered that the bad memories become less noticeable

00:28:19.780 they fade into the background and center stage becomes the favorable memories now but you're

00:28:26.820 always going to have triggers but as an example i happened to move back into the same town that i

00:28:33.220 once lived in with my deceased wife every time i drive down lake mary boulevard in lake mary florida

00:28:41.540 i've passed this one restaurant and i can tell you what dress she had on who we were with 0.99

00:28:47.060 and what she ordered and every time i passed that restaurant my eyes sort of you know shift in that

00:28:54.260 direction to look at it because it's a trigger it's a trigger of a memory that i can't recapture

00:29:01.380 i can't go back in time it's over but it's a trigger and we all have triggers and it could be a meal it could

00:29:08.340 be a song it could be a movie it could be a friend it could be a location it could be almost anything

00:29:15.620 that will take us back and if it's a sad moment hopefully it becomes overpowered by the better

00:29:23.460 memories and i have found that the human mind is able to handle that pretty well it will

00:29:29.780 the good memories will emerge over time i don't necessarily accept the argument time heals all

00:29:36.900 wounds but i think you can have grief it's it's a phase of life we we don't talk about it

00:29:47.300 but we all have to deal with it in fact one of the men once said to me since we're if we're all going to

00:29:54.340 die why we have such difficulty dealing with it why are we so ill prepared because we don't talk

00:29:59.940 about it most people die without a will and then they're at the mercy of the courts there's so many

00:30:05.060 issues here because in our society we don't like talking about death other societies do a much better

00:30:11.860 job than we do the the other surprises that i found is that besides the grief that all men have

00:30:20.340 besides the regrets that all men have the impulsiveness is almost universal

00:30:28.340 they they all want to make choices they want to relocate sell their house change their job go on a

00:30:34.260 trip that they all want to pull triggers and i always encourage them to slow down let's get your health

00:30:41.860 squared away let's hope that the medical doctor refers you to a mental health professional just to be

00:30:48.820 sure and and let me reinforce that when my wife was sick we were living in nashville tennessee

00:30:57.940 i went to vanderbilt medical center and i had an examination with a psychiatrist now everything was

00:31:05.860 fine at that point except for my wife's diagnosis but i wanted to be sure that i was properly anchored as

00:31:13.300 i cared for her i wanted to be sure i wasn't making bad choices with somebody else's life the

00:31:20.100 good news was i got the green light i was doing okay but four months after she passed and i went and saw

00:31:28.020 va there i saw a counselor and the counselor was extremely helpful to me and i was put on an antidepressant for

00:31:36.100 four weeks and i'm not ashamed of that it's it's there's a reason why they give these people phds

00:31:42.020 there's a reason why the medical community has this help available and it helped me get through a

00:31:47.700 very difficult period but so many men hold themselves up because of their ego and what they think others

00:31:56.260 expect of them and they need to cast that aside and just deal with what they need to deal with and

00:32:03.060 these are some of the issues that we talk about in the book some of the issues we talk about on my

00:32:06.660 facebook page and elsewhere and we're having a lot of success with this i'm really i'm i'm really

00:32:14.180 pleased with the work that we're doing and the results that we're receiving well i'm curious with

00:32:18.500 all your work with widowers i'm sure you've worked with older widowers you know middle-aged widowers and

00:32:23.540 also younger widowers but i'm curious is there are there different challenges that say a younger

00:32:28.580 widower faces compared to say a man in his 60s or 50s so i'm talking like a widower in their like 30s

00:32:35.860 early 40s yes okay let me give you some examples none of this is absolute but i can give you some

00:32:43.140 examples there was a man in buffalo new york who was on the phone with his wife 15 minutes he hung up the

00:32:52.740 phone 15 minutes later the phone rang again he saw it was his wife he said yes dear and it was a man's

00:32:58.180 voice and the man said it's not your wife i just picked up her phone she just got struck by a car

00:33:06.660 and five hours later he had to disconnect life support and left him with three children

00:33:14.100 that he needed to raise so that's one example of a younger man frankly i have many of a man in rochester

00:33:21.780 new york whose wife died at the age of 28 i have a man whose wife was in the u.s air force and she

00:33:28.340 was serving in afghanistan she died and left him with two children so there's lots of cases of younger

00:33:34.340 men as well there's a man in los angeles that came home and found his wife dead of a heart attack he was

00:33:39.140 in his early 40s there's there's just a lot of them but the older men are interesting the older men are

00:33:46.180 either frightened that they're gonna live alone the older generation aren't as versatile in their

00:33:53.860 skills and being able to care for themselves cook for themselves do the laundry all the domestic chores

00:34:00.420 they're not very good at that some of them don't even know how to pay the paper boy does he get a check

00:34:05.700 or credit card or do we go online they tend to panic more than the younger men the these from my

00:34:13.780 experience they want somebody in their life and a lot of times it's the first woman they say hello to

00:34:20.820 they again make bad choices and i always encourage them to take it slow be aware of your circumstances

00:34:30.740 don't rush to use the l word things will work out and there's also financial considerations some men

00:34:37.620 are afraid of perhaps getting seriously sick themselves and then having somebody to take care

00:34:44.340 of them and there's a saying in the industry are are we going to replace the wife that we lost or are we

00:34:52.820 going to fall in love with somebody and marry them some men don't care i mean they literally just want

00:34:59.700 someone in their life and frequently that ends in badly either in divorce or a breakup of some type

00:35:09.540 the the other issue that comes into play are financial because of the tax code in the united states

00:35:18.260 married couples or older people who marry if one of them gets sick and are hospitalized or sent to a nursing home

00:35:27.700 their spouse's life savings could be put into the pool of available resources to pay for that 0.93

00:35:36.500 and that surprises a lot of people because they think that they have a little nest egg that they could leave

00:35:42.180 their children or whatever but if they marry they are assuming financial responsibility for their marriage partner

00:35:50.580 that's why several of the couples that i work with never married they just moved in together

00:35:56.420 and it's a shame that the tax code actually encourages that but that's a reality so i imagine so there's

00:36:04.660 that one challenge for older widowers that fear of being alone i imagine for younger widowers oftentimes

00:36:10.260 there's young kids involved it's like suddenly they're also a single dad of young children that they have

00:36:16.340 to take care of by themselves yeah for every for every case that i'm involved with that works out well

00:36:26.420 there's another one that works out very badly and sometimes the children of the deceased

00:36:36.740 are not sympathetic to dad's needs and at the same time you know dads can't be too aggressive in

00:36:45.620 replacing mom it needs to make sense and sometimes dads don't care about what the kids think

00:36:52.740 but there's a there's a lot of turmoil among widowers who find another woman in their life

00:37:02.020 that doesn't satisfy the kids impressions of what should be

00:37:08.100 it's tragic and they need they need counseling is what they need they need to understand each other better in

00:37:14.500 in my case i will tell you i went to my stepson and i asked him do you think i loved your mother

00:37:25.380 and he said yes and i said i did and i still do but i'm going to try to find a new life for myself and

00:37:33.700 that's going to include introducing myself to ladies and his response to me was a blessing he said it's about time

00:37:42.660 so i've had my son's blessing from day one and unfortunately siblings of widowed men parents of

00:37:54.820 widowed men even with children think you know he's got motives he just wants somebody to take care of his 0.58

00:38:01.380 kids you know people can draw a lot of cruel impressions but if you that's why you just can't

00:38:09.220 rush into these things you need to think it through because there are ramifications and a lot of them

00:38:14.740 are hurtful and a lot of them become permanent well you've been taught we've been talking about this

00:38:18.820 you know relationship after being a widower how do you know how does a widower know because this is

00:38:25.940 something that i think a lot of people are curious about like how do you how do you know when the time

00:38:30.260 is right to start dating again because there's like well it's if it's too soon that just looks bad if

00:38:35.220 it's too long well something's wrong there maybe so how do you figure out that um this is again you

00:38:43.780 know every every man's journey is unique to itself and i actually have one one woman called me from

00:38:53.460 quebec and her father asked a woman out at his at her mother's funeral and i spoke with the father

00:39:02.660 father and the father said i took care of my deceased wife now deceased wife for like five

00:39:09.700 years or whatever it was it was a long time he said i've done all my grieving and you know i sort of

00:39:17.620 get that as i sort of get that because every morning for 39 months before i opened my eyes i knew i could feel

00:39:29.620 the presence of my wife next to me and i thought to myself privately she's dying and i have to give

00:39:37.540 her another good day and i did my very best to do that so i sort of understood this man but it just

00:39:43.700 was in poor taste and it's it wasn't a good move on his part but i would answer it this way the man is

00:39:50.340 ready to date when he feels he's ready he shouldn't be concerned about the instructions or doesn't need to

00:39:58.500 meet anybody else's expectations but he does need to be mindful that other people are entitled to form

00:40:05.300 opinions and he's going to have to live with those opinions so he may want to be somewhat tactical in

00:40:12.580 how he goes about doing things and being sensitive to others he's not the only one that's grieving

00:40:18.660 there could be children involved siblings involved neighbors involved co-workers involved who are also

00:40:23.940 grieving the loss of the same woman who happened to be his wife and if he wants those relationships to

00:40:29.460 be solid into the future he needs to have some sensitivity too it's not all about him and how how

00:40:36.420 does like i guess one thing i've wondered about is like okay you're if you're a widower you might have

00:40:42.100 been married for years decades so it's been a while since you've been in the dating scene where you've been

00:40:48.900 trying to court right yeah that's a skill right and you you haven't used it in possibly years or

00:40:55.620 decades like you don't you've lost your game basically so like how do you how do you get it

00:41:00.100 back i mean is it awkward i mean is it is like learning how to date again a challenge that some

00:41:03.940 widowers have absolutely i mean i mean all sorts of things have changed hair hair styles or the presence of

00:41:12.980 hair a lot of men's self-esteem have suffered you know maybe their weight has you know shifted maybe

00:41:19.860 they don't have the physique or even the teeth that they used to have i mean it's just all sorts of

00:41:24.900 things that they're self-conscious about right and i understand that completely but if they're themselves

00:41:32.740 and frankly not not to preach because i would never want to do that but the men should pray over it

00:41:39.300 you know and my mother used to say to me when i was a young man you want to meet a nice woman go to

00:41:45.620 church okay but there's a lot of nice women out there the ratio is about five to one widows over 1.00

00:41:53.220 widowers so there's a lot of ladies that would love to have a relationship again and are you know mature 1.00

00:42:01.300 enough and sensitive enough the fact that you had one before and they're understanding that maybe your

00:42:06.740 physique has been modified and your hairline may have receded and whatever else and they understand

00:42:14.020 it and they look way past that and i just wouldn't rush it i just wouldn't rush it at all let it take

00:42:21.460 its natural course and and don't be that impulsive male that wants to pull triggers i mean i i unfortunately

00:42:29.540 i have guys who have proposed within in fact this past week i have a guy was i'm helping him coaching him

00:42:36.100 and his wife has been deceased for four months and he met this woman and now he's he's referring to

00:42:42.900 it as a relationship i said you've had one date is he calling it a relationship i said it's not i mean

00:42:49.540 you just barely set a low so guys seem to rush and the older men are even more insistent about rushing

00:42:59.380 unfortunately right and i'm sure it's because they're lonely and they're scared and i imagine

00:43:04.180 going back this this difference between older widowers and younger widowers like an older

00:43:09.220 widower you know the chances of him finding another like a widow are probably better than say a younger 0.99

00:43:14.740 widow a guy in his 30s and so you know if you find a widow you have you have that in common you you

00:43:19.940 both have had or possibly a happy relationship right and so you understand each other but like for a

00:43:24.820 younger widower you know he's in his 30s early 40s he might be got in the dating scene he might find

00:43:29.140 one who's never been married before right and so like he yeah they she doesn't understand really

00:43:33.460 understand what he's gone through so how does that play out in your experience okay with my experience

00:43:40.340 it's much harder for the younger widower because they're good chance there's children involved

00:43:46.340 good chance that the lady is not going to be a widow that she good chance she's going to be divorced 1.00

00:43:52.420 so there's going to be an ex-husband involved there could be financial considerations involved

00:43:59.300 if there's a divorce in in in there somewhere and the children you know that you have to protect the

00:44:08.260 children that's when you need to bring in professional assistance to talk things through completely because if the

00:44:15.220 children don't buy in and they're especially if they're young children you are asking for trouble for the rest of your life

00:44:22.260 and most of the men that i work with who have children have not remarried so we've been talking

00:44:29.300 about the dating scene getting back into that and differences different challenges older younger

00:44:35.060 widowers might find in that situation but marriage also has its challenge let's get a little more tactical 0.95

00:44:41.380 here so one thing that widowers will probably have to consider this time around they get married the 0.99

00:44:47.220 second time is the legal ramifications of marriage right maybe they might have to do a prenup agreement 0.98

00:44:52.580 that they might not have done with their first spouse because he married her because they got

00:44:58.740 married when they had nothing right and now he's in his now yeah yeah minus right now he's in his 60s

00:45:06.180 and has you know built accumulated some net uh some assets i highly recommend prenups

00:45:12.180 particularly if there are children involved it's the right thing to do and if the person that you're

00:45:20.500 involved with says i won't sign one then i mean i would walk away i would walk away because your

00:45:30.820 deceased spouse had expectations that you would take care of your children and that doesn't mean you

00:45:38.740 share whatever the two of you worked for they give it to a third party now some couples may say they

00:45:44.340 can work it out and maybe they do and god bless them that they can make that happen but you need to

00:45:50.660 protect the children because then if anything happens to the male later on who's to say that the the

00:45:58.900 surviving children of now both parents being deceased are probably taken care of by the next husband and

00:46:05.540 their stepmom i mean you have to protect the children it's just the right thing to do right

00:46:11.860 so i mean something you know everyone should consider even if their their wife is healthy and

00:46:17.060 happy estate planning right do a trust do a will get that in place so you don't have to think about

00:46:23.460 that absolutely whenever when you have to make a decision i i spent 38 years in the financial service

00:46:28.740 industries and banking and it's scary how few people are prepared for difficult times

00:46:36.980 i think it's something like some ridiculous number like 70 of americans have less than ten thousand

00:46:43.460 dollars and that can barely handle even a small crisis and yet they go into retirement depending

00:46:50.820 almost and sometimes solely on social security and when you are widowed and let's say your wife had a

00:46:57.940 pension or she had a social security check coming in and now that's gone now what do you do can you

00:47:04.660 even afford the house that you're sleeping in you might have to sell then you have a fire sale what

00:47:09.940 if it's a down market then you have a double hit but you lost on the market conditions and you lost

00:47:14.580 because you're moving i mean there's so many considerations and that's one of the reasons why i also

00:47:20.820 work with caregivers of terminally ill or seriously ill women because if i can get to them before they

00:47:28.660 experience the loss of their of their spouse i can possibly prevent some bad things from happening

00:47:36.740 down the road financially and that will help me help them avoid future regrets because if they don't take

00:47:46.340 care of things whether they you know they're distracted they're scared their wife's in trouble

00:47:51.220 and they just say the hell with my health the hell with my financial affairs i'm just i can't deal with

00:47:57.300 it now i got too much on my mind i get it but unfortunately the business world the financial

00:48:03.460 world doesn't wait for anybody and if the wife passes and those documents aren't in good order 1.00

00:48:10.020 you could have an awful lot of regrets later on that would prevent you from even taking care of

00:48:15.540 yourself and your children the children of the deceased so i recommend that every man get with

00:48:23.380 an appropriate attorney and get your financial affairs and get your legal affairs in proper order

00:48:28.980 because it can happen to anybody like that poor man who lost his wife that was hit by a car

00:48:33.940 well and then we've been talking a lot about widowers themselves but another issue that widowers

00:48:38.500 are often thinking about it when there's kids involved like how do they help their kids grieve

00:48:43.060 their mothers so what what have you found that widowers what what's helpful for widowers to do to help

00:48:48.420 their children as they go through their own grieving process well first of all there is a lot of

00:48:53.620 resources available for children when i entered this industry 10 years ago 11 years ago i was actually

00:49:01.060 surprised and delighted about some of the materials that are out there and if you go to my website which

00:49:08.260 is the widowers support network dot com you're going to find a list of links of all a lot of

00:49:15.060 different organizations that you can turn to including soaring spirits and the grief toolbox and and others

00:49:22.020 that specialize in programming for children the founder of the grief toolbox which is out of new

00:49:28.340 hampshire you know he tragically lost his son at the age of four so he has a lot of material for

00:49:36.020 children and been parents who have children who experienced a loss but it's because there's such

00:49:43.060 great resources out there nobody should assume that they somehow magically inherited all the skills needed to

00:49:49.940 be a parent times two it's it's a difficult assignment and and not everybody can do it you know years

00:49:57.780 ago there used to be a tv show called the courtship of eddie's father and it was a glamorous story about

00:50:05.620 a marketing executive who lost his wife he was raising his son and he dressed really cool and he had a lot

00:50:11.780 of pretty girlfriends it was bill bixby was the star of the show and it glamorized being a widower well it's

00:50:19.300 not like that i mean it's difficult and it's down in the trenches and you're cooking meals and you're

00:50:24.260 going off the pta meetings and you're taking kids to their football practice and and the little girl misses

00:50:31.860 their mom and the man doesn't know how to what to say to the little girl as she's going through you know

00:50:37.380 critical points in her life that's why men need to tap into the resources that are out there and 0.99

00:50:42.420 there's plenty out there for the children if the men would only take it right so yeah again widowers 0.97

00:50:48.100 with children reach out for help exactly well her and and we can help direct them you know if they

00:50:55.460 want to call on us or just google it i mean you'll find a lot of different resources for children some

00:51:02.020 terrific books there's a wonderful book if you have a very young child called a goodbye book and

00:51:08.420 it's a story of a of a fish who lost its friend and what feelings a little fish went through it's um

00:51:18.180 it's a terrific piece and i think it was a new york times bestseller so you'll want to look for that

00:51:25.380 well herb this has been a great conversation where can people go to learn more about your work

00:51:28.820 well there's three different places that i would encourage them to take a peek at one is the

00:51:34.500 website which is a widowers support network.com there's an s on widowers plural so widowers support

00:51:42.340 network.com and on facebook again there's two facebook pages there's one for the general public

00:51:49.140 which is widowers support network the second one is for men only and it's widowers support network dash

00:51:58.020 members members only and all of our services are free we don't even solicit donations that's not

00:52:07.140 what we're about we're about helping men who have few places to turn and we're proud to be here for

00:52:14.820 them well herb noel thanks so much coming on the show this has been a pleasure thank you so much for

00:52:19.060 the opportunity my guest is herb noel he's the author of the book the widower's journey it's available

00:52:23.700 on amazon.com also check out his website widowers support network.com where you find more information

00:52:29.060 more resources help you also a link to his facebook group should that interest you as well also check

00:52:33.780 out our show notes at aom.is slash widowers journey where you find links to resources including all the

00:52:38.980 stuff that we mentioned throughout the show so you can delve deeper into this topic

00:52:53.860 well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice

00:52:57.940 make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com and if you enjoy

00:53:01.380 the show you've gotten something out of it i'd appreciate if you give us a review on itunes or

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00:53:11.940 for your continued support and until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay manly

00:53:34.660 you

The Art of Manliness - December 12, 2018

#466： What It's Like to Become a Widower

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