The Art of Manliness - #468： Does Meditation Deserve the Hype？

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast earlier this year

00:00:19.060 i did a show about the benefits of meditation it's episode number 439 for those who want to

00:00:24.000 check it out shortly after that interview i came across a book called the buddha pill

00:00:27.780 which takes a critical look at the research on meditation and exposes some of the weaknesses

00:00:31.780 of the hype that currently surrounds it as someone who loves to look at both sides of an issue i was

00:00:35.840 certainly intrigued and today on the show i talked to one of the co-authors of the buddha pill i begin

00:00:40.180 my conversation with miguel farias a psychologist and therapist trained at oxford university by

00:00:44.380 discussing how the current mindfulness craze we're experiencing in the 21st century isn't entirely new

00:00:49.340 but is similar to a trend which emerged in the 1960s and 1970s around the practice of transcendental

00:00:54.320 meditation miguel explains how meditation research began with transcendental meditation

00:00:58.160 the limits of that research and why transcendental meditation has now been eclipsed by mindfulness

00:01:02.720 meditation in the second half of the show miguel shares some problems with the western approach to

00:01:06.400 mindfulness meditation including detaching it from a spiritual framework making it a self-centered

00:01:10.660 affair and using it to take a more passive stance to life we also explore the often overlooked downsides

00:01:15.940 of meditation including the fact that it can sometimes have the very opposite of the calming

00:01:19.740 centering effect people are seeking we end our conversation discussing whether meditation is truly

00:01:23.760 effective in reducing stress anxiety and depression miguel's conclusion on whether people should

00:01:27.720 practice it and if you should ultimately feel guilty if you decide not to really fascinating show

00:01:32.520 after it's over check out the show notes at aom.is slash buddha bill

00:01:36.480 miguel farias welcome to the show thank you i'm really happy to be talking to you brad so you are a

00:01:52.360 psychological researcher you've done some time as a therapist as well and you got this book out called

00:01:57.540 the buddha pill where you take a critical look at research on meditation and the effects of it so how

00:02:05.200 did you get started looking at meditation and the psychological effects of it yeah it wasn't originally

00:02:09.800 intended to be as critical as it turned out to be because i'm i'm actually a fan of meditation

00:02:16.680 i've been doing it for for a while um so what happened is that when i was doing my undergraduate

00:02:25.420 degree in psychology back in lisbon in portugal i became more and more interested in spiritual practices

00:02:34.800 and i mean there's been some research from the psychological perspective on on religion and

00:02:43.160 religious practices but mostly on on standard stuff so there is a a growing literature for instance on

00:02:49.720 religion and health mostly coming from the u.s but there was very little on spiritual practices such as

00:02:58.780 energy healing and also meditation so i actually when i came to do my doctorate in oxford i was

00:03:04.980 already interested in trying to ascertain to what an extent the claims that there's lots of claims

00:03:12.140 starting in the 60s uh with many new age ideas that if you do this if you do this technique of

00:03:19.720 meditation if you do this kind of chanting this will radically transform you so i was interested in

00:03:26.860 looking into that back when i started my doctorate then i realized that this is actually really really

00:03:33.340 difficult to to try to measure and quantify i mean starting with personal change and then these people

00:03:41.720 doing lots of different practices so i ended up postponing that part of my question for some 10 years

00:03:48.360 until i met the director of a small charity in oxford that organizes yoga and meditation classes across most

00:03:59.840 british prisons and they had lots of anecdotal evidence letters from prisoners who had been trying

00:04:07.040 out yoga and meditation but they didn't have any quantitative study and when i looked at the literature i

00:04:14.040 realized that there had never been any i mean nicely conducted randomized control trial looking at the

00:04:20.460 effects of yoga and meditation in prisons so that's what really got me started looking into the science of

00:04:27.120 meditation it was this collaboration with this charity called the prison phoenix trust and we'll talk

00:04:32.920 more about that because i think it's interesting and sort of the findings you you did do a study with them

00:04:37.500 but before we get to that let's talk about the history of meditation research and the history of

00:04:43.880 meditation as part of you know a cultural phenomenon so right now in the 21st century there's a lot of talk

00:04:49.760 about mindfulness meditation you can take courses on it there's books on it there's blog articles on it

00:04:56.340 and they're all talking about how you know the mindfulness meditation can transform you can reduce

00:05:01.720 anxiety alleviate depression reduce stress but as you mentioned this isn't new you talked

00:05:07.400 about in the 60s and 70s we had something very similar with transcendental meditation so for those

00:05:13.460 who aren't familiar with it what is transcendental meditation and and how is it how's how is it similar

00:05:19.480 to the cultural phenomenon that we're seeing with mindful meditation today yeah no really really

00:05:25.040 interesting and good questions so many many people of my parents generation for instance so who were in

00:05:33.400 their 20s and 30s during the 1960s and 70s they would be acquainted with the idea of transcendental

00:05:39.900 meditation what's really interesting about this meditation technique is that it was really what

00:05:48.420 we call the first wave of the scientific studies of meditation up to then you had these small scale

00:05:56.900 studies mostly looking at experts but then maharishi who's the founder of tm transcendental meditation

00:06:03.120 shows up the beetles are also helping in in spread the words about maharishi and tm and the technique is

00:06:13.760 really simple while lots of other meditation techniques are embedded within a larger belief system and you have to do

00:06:22.120 lots of other rituals this one only involves a small ceremony when you learn the technique and the technique

00:06:30.060 is really simple you basically meditate for 20 minutes twice per day and you focus on the words which we call

00:06:38.860 a mantra it's a sounds actually it's not even coming from sanskrit it's just a sound that maharishi

00:06:45.580 said that he received from his teachers so people are given a sound they focus on this sound

00:06:52.600 for 20 minutes twice a day and you know within a few years you had quite a lot of people

00:07:00.500 who are being introduced to this technique during the the 60s and then throughout the 70s

00:07:07.180 many of them were young graduates from good u.s universities it also comes then

00:07:13.380 to to europe so i mentioned in in our book that i was actually introduced to meditation via tm as a child

00:07:22.740 i mean i didn't practice it then but my parents had just done a course on it

00:07:27.640 and maharishi who was a graduate of physics so he actually studied physics before he dropped out and

00:07:38.380 then became a guru when he came to the west he had a very good insight that the only way to pull

00:07:44.020 meditation out of a sort of metaphysical new ageish niche would be to have science backing it up

00:07:51.860 so he contacted a number of researchers and they started i mean what would become really what's

00:07:59.980 this first wave of scientific studies of meditation and in so this happens i mean 20 30 years before

00:08:10.680 mindfulness became a really big thing i mean bigger now than than tm was but i mean there was so much

00:08:21.280 enthusiasm about the growth of tm that by 1975 maharishi thought that it's a kind of new ageish

00:08:31.140 psychological idea that the sort of the the essence or the waves around the practice of all these

00:08:39.580 hundreds of thousands of people practicing tm would affect the global consciousness of our planet

00:08:45.820 which should bring about an era of peace well in fact they tried doing studies to prove that you

00:08:53.440 mentioned one i think it was in washington dc or around there where they did a had a whole bunch of

00:08:57.660 people doing transcendental meditation at the same time for a month and then they try to find reduction

00:09:03.960 in crime yeah so i usually mention that study because it's the largest single most expensive study

00:09:15.640 ever conducted on meditation there's been large grants but that is a single study that cost them

00:09:22.360 something like four million u.s dollars back then because they had to bring all these people from

00:09:28.480 different places in the u.s concentrate them in a place in washington dc and then they kept them

00:09:36.540 for some weeks to meditate and they increased the number of meditators it was actually really

00:09:42.440 interesting idea i have to say it's quite unique that there really isn't anything like this

00:09:49.260 in the study of of meditation or even on the idea that any kind of individual practice may have such a

00:09:59.380 social large social effect the idea was that it would affect this this global consciousness of the

00:10:08.940 planet and it would decrease the the levels of stress at this somewhat ethereal or non-physical level

00:10:22.380 but this would then filter down into people's individual consciousnesses and that would bring about

00:10:31.840 a reduction in things like violent crime burglary rape and the paper shows that it did decrease overall

00:10:42.660 but when we looked better at what was happening is that they didn't report everything so for instance there

00:10:52.460 there had been a a crime a single mass murder committed during the period in which they were studying

00:11:01.280 but they consider that what we call a statistical outlier which means it was a single event so it's very

00:11:09.760 very different from a normal distribution of how crime even murder would happen so they deleted

00:11:16.880 that from the data set which is why they didn't report it so the results aren't as as stellar as

00:11:24.820 they they seem to be at first so you know besides that one study as you mentioned there was a lot of

00:11:32.240 research around transcendental meditation that was getting published in prestigious journals i mean so

00:11:36.460 what were these research articles saying that are the results of meditation and when you look back at that

00:11:43.740 research say you know now they're 40 years later do those do those findings hold up

00:11:49.320 so the first paper by transcendental meditation researchers was actually published in the journal science

00:11:58.880 so one of the major scientific outlets for science publications and the kind of claim and the kind of

00:12:08.740 measurements that they're interested in is very much what we'll then are going to find so they're interested in

00:12:13.420 how it affects our physiology our psychology and our well-being so there was a plethora of studies

00:12:21.740 looking at simple things like does it affect your heart rate does it affect how you breathe does it affect

00:12:29.100 your levels of anxiety stress depression does it affect your overall well-being but also things like

00:12:36.400 they change your personality traits if you're particularly anxious or neurotic does it lower your levels of

00:12:42.560 neurotic neurotic does it increase your IQ levels does it make you act in a more empathic

00:12:51.740 social oriented way it's very much what we're still interested in when we study mindfulness these days and

00:13:00.560 overall the they had positive results there was a a large meta-analysis published some years ago which looks at

00:13:10.720 both at transcendental meditation and mindfulness and because because the times were different there are some

00:13:20.560 methodological issues which are now somewhat outdated in the sense that they have less randomized control trials that

00:13:28.960 mindfulness has but that the main reason for that is that back in the 70s and 80s there weren't so many psychological

00:13:36.720 trials conducted in in this way but many of the physiological results

00:13:43.900 results stand out such as the benefits for heart problems so quite a lot of these studies are still good research and they give us a sort of decent

00:13:58.900 indication of how meditation can affect your psychological well-being and your physical health

00:14:07.080 but as you mentioned uh earlier researching or doing experiments on meditation is hard because you know typically the best you know the typical the best study to do is a double-blind placebo

00:14:20.080 yeah but the thing is like how do you how do you do a placebo for meditation right yeah this is an ongoing debate that's a very good point

00:14:27.160 many meditation researchers think that you can't do a placebo because you can't find anything that would replicate meditation and that would also be

00:14:39.260 cheating on the participants i feel more ambivalent

00:14:43.180 there were a couple of earlier studies with tm in the mid-1970s by jonathan smith in which he created

00:14:53.100 i mean a very a very ingenious placebo for meditation where he wrote a whole manual about a pseudo meditation technique which consisted of simply sitting down for 20 minutes and doing nothing

00:15:10.540 but he convinced participants

00:15:14.380 that this was a new meditation technique which put together the theories of all other meditation techniques

00:15:21.980 and

00:15:24.520 perhaps because of this

00:15:26.880 that he convinced people that this was going to work

00:15:29.720 the outcomes he got from

00:15:33.200 this

00:15:34.020 placebo meditation were the same as for tm

00:15:37.340 so both the tm condition and this placebo meditation condition had better outcomes than those who weren't doing any meditation

00:15:45.660 and

00:15:46.660 the problem with this

00:15:48.720 is that it leads us to another ongoing debate

00:15:52.700 which is

00:15:54.580 whether meditation is just a form of relaxation or if it's doing something more than relaxation

00:16:01.280 okay so there's a debate on whether meditation is just relaxing you that's all it's doing so like what is the consensus in the

00:16:09.120 the psychological field on that

00:16:11.600 well

00:16:13.560 there really is no consensus

00:16:15.160 there are attempts within some studies to compare this to relaxation and sometimes the results are different but that doesn't happen always

00:16:23.380 but the thing is most of these problems are embedded within a context which is what exactly is meditation and what exactly is relaxation

00:16:34.260 and most of the meditation researchers aren't aware

00:16:38.520 that

00:16:39.780 physical relaxation the way it started out in the west

00:16:43.260 is very similar to that of meditation

00:16:46.040 it was coming out of certain spiritual traditions

00:16:50.040 and it was an attempt to take out some of these techniques

00:16:54.000 and make them purely secular

00:16:57.360 right

00:16:58.660 but the kind of processes you find in simple physical relaxation

00:17:03.400 have some clear overlaps with that of meditation

00:17:07.620 in the sense that you're

00:17:09.200 for instance if you're doing muscular relaxation

00:17:11.740 you're focusing slowly through various parts of your body

00:17:17.080 your muscles

00:17:17.780 sometimes you're contracting them

00:17:20.200 and

00:17:21.140 then relaxing them

00:17:22.940 but

00:17:24.300 the kind of mental process involved in this

00:17:27.580 the kind of focusing

00:17:28.580 it does have

00:17:30.000 many similarities with

00:17:31.700 the kind of focused process of meditation

00:17:34.020 and another issue

00:17:36.320 that it's hard to resolve too

00:17:38.580 is

00:17:39.680 this so you know you mentioned that study

00:17:41.560 where they had the placebo set up

00:17:43.700 where it's basically

00:17:44.320 a guy came up with sort of a fake meditation process

00:17:47.260 where they just sat and did nothing

00:17:48.660 and it worked

00:17:49.720 and then someone meditated

00:17:51.360 and it worked to reduce stress

00:17:53.140 so like

00:17:53.860 one issue is like

00:17:54.840 does meditation work because people just want it to work?

00:17:58.800 oh

00:17:59.000 well

00:18:00.300 the more we know about

00:18:02.400 the so-called placebo effect

00:18:04.400 the more we know that

00:18:06.600 expecting something to work

00:18:08.880 is part of the reason why it works

00:18:11.120 this has become

00:18:13.860 so prominent

00:18:15.580 in the placebo studies

00:18:17.460 that they're now

00:18:18.320 doing what they call

00:18:20.640 open placebo trials

00:18:22.440 where they explicitly tell people

00:18:24.880 that

00:18:25.720 I'm going to give you a placebo

00:18:27.260 and I'm going to give you a placebo

00:18:29.160 because there's all these studies

00:18:30.920 showing that placebo works

00:18:32.220 and

00:18:33.720 it

00:18:34.620 there's

00:18:35.360 the results are astonishing

00:18:36.640 even things

00:18:37.640 which we think of

00:18:39.660 as completely physical

00:18:41.100 such as

00:18:42.020 lower back pain

00:18:43.340 they seem to have

00:18:45.620 very good results

00:18:46.540 when they give these

00:18:47.460 open placebos

00:18:48.360 so undoubtedly

00:18:49.740 with meditation

00:18:51.940 particularly now

00:18:52.640 that there is this

00:18:53.420 sort of media hype

00:18:55.220 that this is going to

00:18:56.320 cure everything

00:18:57.660 that your expectation

00:18:59.460 about it

00:19:00.140 is certainly

00:19:00.700 going to interfere

00:19:01.620 with the outcomes

00:19:02.460 so

00:19:03.560 TM was really big

00:19:05.260 in the 60s and 70s

00:19:06.220 and it had a huge

00:19:06.960 cultural impact

00:19:07.780 and I think a lot of people

00:19:08.720 know

00:19:09.360 if you're younger

00:19:10.380 that a lot of the

00:19:11.740 self-help gurus

00:19:12.780 that we see today

00:19:13.780 Deepak Chopra

00:19:15.320 John Gray

00:19:16.360 the men are from Mars

00:19:17.540 women

00:19:17.880 women are from Venus guy

00:19:19.260 like they all started out

00:19:20.220 in transcendental meditation

00:19:21.380 that's true

00:19:22.480 yes

00:19:22.880 right

00:19:23.700 but it dwindled

00:19:25.400 like you don't

00:19:25.920 I haven't really

00:19:26.460 I've never met

00:19:27.220 a 20-something

00:19:28.280 transcendental meditation

00:19:29.520 meditation practitioner

00:19:30.960 so why did TM dwindle

00:19:32.300 in popularity

00:19:32.980 that's a really good question

00:19:35.080 so there's still

00:19:36.440 people

00:19:37.400 doing TM

00:19:38.460 and researching TM

00:19:39.780 and publishing on it

00:19:40.740 there's still at least

00:19:42.220 one university

00:19:43.320 of transcendental meditation

00:19:45.460 in the US

00:19:46.180 and they

00:19:47.340 they somewhat

00:19:48.220 resent the fact

00:19:49.260 that mindfulness

00:19:50.480 has become so big

00:19:51.580 and most of these

00:19:53.380 mindfulness researchers

00:19:54.420 don't even

00:19:55.000 cite in their articles

00:19:57.240 the TM

00:19:58.200 research

00:19:59.700 I think it's simply

00:20:01.060 because they don't

00:20:01.700 know of it

00:20:02.920 just because

00:20:03.820 researchers are very

00:20:05.140 focused on what's

00:20:05.960 going on right now

00:20:06.780 and they don't

00:20:07.640 tend to read

00:20:08.380 what's happened

00:20:09.180 in the past

00:20:09.720 which sometimes

00:20:11.440 isn't very

00:20:12.000 a good way

00:20:12.700 of doing science

00:20:13.360 but that's how it is

00:20:14.340 no

00:20:15.380 different things

00:20:16.880 happened

00:20:17.480 with

00:20:18.340 with TM

00:20:19.640 one

00:20:21.800 is that

00:20:22.860 they

00:20:23.860 they sort of

00:20:24.700 kept

00:20:25.200 the trademark

00:20:26.540 for it

00:20:27.380 within the

00:20:28.300 organization

00:20:29.000 so the

00:20:31.020 major difference

00:20:32.000 in terms of

00:20:32.860 the expansion

00:20:33.580 of TM

00:20:35.260 versus

00:20:35.620 mindfulness

00:20:36.180 is that

00:20:37.380 TM is still

00:20:38.240 organized

00:20:40.300 by a central

00:20:41.260 organization

00:20:42.060 sorry

00:20:42.820 organized

00:20:43.280 organization

00:20:43.840 it's still held

00:20:45.080 by the central

00:20:45.640 organization

00:20:46.240 you need to have

00:20:47.160 a certified

00:20:47.680 teacher

00:20:48.440 that

00:20:50.540 introduces you

00:20:52.020 to the technique

00:20:52.880 there's a kind of

00:20:53.820 formal initiation

00:20:54.680 and you pay

00:20:55.940 for this

00:20:56.540 well

00:20:57.100 most of the

00:20:57.940 people doing

00:20:58.320 mindfulness

00:20:58.680 courses

00:20:59.160 you also

00:20:59.920 pay for

00:21:00.440 them

00:21:00.680 but it's

00:21:01.800 it's become

00:21:02.480 much more

00:21:03.000 liberated

00:21:03.680 so anyone

00:21:04.480 can learn

00:21:05.000 from anyone

00:21:05.900 there is no

00:21:06.880 central organization

00:21:07.700 there is no

00:21:08.360 central control

00:21:09.200 in this sense

00:21:10.940 TM claims

00:21:12.000 that

00:21:12.320 we have

00:21:13.680 much better

00:21:14.600 control over

00:21:15.240 the quality

00:21:15.760 of our

00:21:16.080 teachers

00:21:16.480 because they're

00:21:17.800 all trained

00:21:18.580 in the same

00:21:19.360 way by us

00:21:20.260 which doesn't

00:21:20.780 happen with

00:21:21.200 mindfulness

00:21:21.560 and this

00:21:22.720 may be true

00:21:23.620 the other

00:21:24.600 thing which

00:21:24.960 happened

00:21:25.400 with TM

00:21:26.360 going back

00:21:27.060 to

00:21:27.480 the mid

00:21:29.320 late 70s

00:21:30.320 is that

00:21:30.840 they

00:21:31.400 they got

00:21:32.840 somewhat

00:21:33.200 enthusiastic

00:21:33.940 not just

00:21:35.920 with these

00:21:36.240 claims that

00:21:36.820 this would

00:21:37.200 change the

00:21:37.640 world

00:21:37.960 but Maharishi

00:21:39.880 thought

00:21:42.460 that

00:21:44.380 as more

00:21:45.320 people

00:21:45.920 got into

00:21:46.820 TM

00:21:47.240 he started

00:21:48.920 talking about

00:21:49.460 advanced

00:21:50.100 TM

00:21:50.660 techniques

00:21:51.200 which would

00:21:52.220 allow people

00:21:52.800 to develop

00:21:53.340 all kinds

00:21:54.020 of

00:21:54.400 paranormal

00:21:55.160 powers

00:21:55.900 such as

00:21:57.000 levitation

00:21:57.580 so the

00:21:57.920 idea of

00:21:58.240 levitation

00:21:58.700 became a

00:21:59.260 big

00:21:59.540 embarrassment

00:22:01.480 they even

00:22:03.260 developed

00:22:03.820 well

00:22:05.460 how do you

00:22:06.200 call it

00:22:06.420 so while

00:22:07.280 sitting

00:22:07.580 cross-legged

00:22:08.220 and there's

00:22:09.760 lots of

00:22:10.380 wonderful

00:22:10.660 pictures of

00:22:11.340 some of

00:22:11.660 these

00:22:11.940 early

00:22:12.420 TM

00:22:13.400 meditators

00:22:14.120 in which

00:22:15.020 they seem

00:22:15.360 to be

00:22:15.720 floating

00:22:16.380 but in

00:22:17.700 fact

00:22:17.940 they're

00:22:18.220 jumping

00:22:18.740 while

00:22:19.120 cross-legged

00:22:19.760 in this

00:22:20.720 advanced

00:22:21.800 state

00:22:22.200 of

00:22:22.520 TM

00:22:23.100 so it

00:22:23.720 became

00:22:23.940 somewhat

00:22:24.220 of an

00:22:24.460 embarrassment

00:22:24.880 because

00:22:25.520 people

00:22:26.920 didn't

00:22:27.240 actually

00:22:27.800 levitate

00:22:28.540 but there

00:22:30.760 were these

00:22:31.100 kind of

00:22:31.560 paranormal

00:22:32.100 claims that

00:22:34.340 couldn't be

00:22:35.060 verified

00:22:35.940 I think

00:22:37.640 that

00:22:37.900 so that

00:22:38.360 didn't help

00:22:39.320 the image

00:22:39.820 from a certain

00:22:40.320 point onwards

00:22:41.060 but I think

00:22:41.460 it had more

00:22:42.040 to do with

00:22:42.480 how this

00:22:43.920 was marketed

00:22:44.580 and the fact

00:22:45.100 that they

00:22:45.340 held the

00:22:45.720 control

00:22:46.140 which is

00:22:46.840 why it

00:22:47.300 didn't keep

00:22:47.900 growing

00:22:48.560 I should

00:22:50.120 say that

00:22:50.500 with

00:22:50.760 mindfulness

00:22:51.420 there are

00:22:52.940 similar

00:22:53.300 utopian

00:22:53.960 claims

00:22:54.520 the

00:22:55.780 paranormal

00:22:56.300 stuff

00:22:56.900 is less

00:22:58.420 clear

00:22:58.920 although

00:22:59.240 there are

00:22:59.520 still ideas

00:23:00.020 of

00:23:00.380 experiencing

00:23:01.700 pure

00:23:02.160 consciousness

00:23:02.720 but there's

00:23:04.780 I mean

00:23:05.220 people like

00:23:05.660 Kabat-Zinn

00:23:06.300 who's

00:23:06.920 the creator

00:23:07.840 of the

00:23:08.220 major

00:23:08.640 secularized

00:23:10.120 format

00:23:10.700 of

00:23:11.500 mindfulness

00:23:12.000 he's

00:23:13.540 become

00:23:14.200 more and

00:23:15.060 more open

00:23:15.760 about his

00:23:16.500 utopian

00:23:17.020 beliefs

00:23:17.720 on how

00:23:18.280 mindfulness

00:23:18.660 is going

00:23:19.120 to change

00:23:19.960 the world

00:23:21.220 in various

00:23:22.380 ways

00:23:23.000 so let's

00:23:23.960 talk about

00:23:24.280 the difference

00:23:24.540 between

00:23:24.760 mindfulness

00:23:25.200 meditation

00:23:25.780 and TM

00:23:26.200 so TM

00:23:26.720 you said

00:23:27.260 there's a

00:23:28.160 mantra

00:23:28.480 that you

00:23:29.040 repeat

00:23:29.340 it could

00:23:29.540 be

00:23:29.700 OM

00:23:30.140 I think

00:23:30.740 is the

00:23:30.900 most popular

00:23:31.300 one

00:23:31.620 what does

00:23:32.580 mindfulness

00:23:32.980 meditation

00:23:33.920 do

00:23:34.140 that's

00:23:34.360 different

00:23:34.680 so

00:23:36.160 the kind

00:23:36.880 of

00:23:37.180 while in

00:23:37.980 TM

00:23:38.320 and other

00:23:39.320 meditation

00:23:40.180 techniques

00:23:40.660 you're

00:23:41.260 either

00:23:41.460 focusing

00:23:41.920 on the

00:23:42.400 sound

00:23:42.700 the mantra

00:23:43.200 or an

00:23:44.700 image

00:23:45.000 or the

00:23:46.260 breath

00:23:46.600 with

00:23:49.160 mindfulness

00:23:50.520 the idea

00:23:52.780 is that

00:23:53.460 you just

00:23:54.120 keep the

00:23:55.260 focus

00:23:55.720 on the

00:23:56.160 flow of

00:23:56.600 consciousness

00:23:57.140 in a

00:23:57.860 non-judgmental

00:23:58.660 way

00:23:58.860 there are

00:24:00.040 different

00:24:00.340 definitions

00:24:00.840 even Kabat

00:24:01.540 Zen

00:24:01.760 is somewhat

00:24:03.280 ambiguous

00:24:03.760 about what

00:24:05.060 essentially

00:24:06.260 characterizes

00:24:07.240 mindfulness

00:24:08.060 but as

00:24:08.720 a technique

00:24:09.340 coming

00:24:09.780 from Buddhist

00:24:10.760 meditation

00:24:11.340 the idea

00:24:13.160 is to

00:24:14.180 keep

00:24:14.460 this

00:24:14.940 kind

00:24:15.820 of

00:24:15.940 overall

00:24:16.500 awareness

00:24:17.500 of

00:24:18.640 everything

00:24:19.920 that

00:24:20.220 comes

00:24:20.620 into

00:24:21.520 your

00:24:21.920 perception

00:24:23.400 into your

00:24:23.780 awareness

00:24:24.080 and let

00:24:24.760 it go

00:24:25.200 so you

00:24:25.880 just keep

00:24:26.480 focusing

00:24:26.860 on the

00:24:27.720 flow

00:24:28.140 of your

00:24:28.780 awareness

00:24:29.340 without

00:24:29.860 focusing

00:24:30.680 on anything

00:24:31.280 in particular

00:24:32.620 we're gonna

00:24:33.820 take a quick

00:24:34.100 break for

00:24:34.480 your word

00:24:34.740 from our

00:24:35.000 sponsors

00:24:35.380 and now

00:24:37.260 back to

00:24:37.800 the show

00:24:38.200 and there's a lot

00:24:40.040 of research

00:24:40.540 now done about

00:24:41.560 mindfulness

00:24:42.140 meditation as you

00:24:43.020 mentioned

00:24:43.280 are the same

00:24:44.160 problems

00:24:44.820 that existed

00:24:46.040 with the first

00:24:46.820 wave of research

00:24:47.560 on meditation

00:24:48.060 do they still

00:24:49.160 exist now

00:24:49.740 with mindfulness

00:24:50.180 meditation

00:24:50.680 research

00:24:51.180 well

00:24:53.240 yes

00:24:55.080 basically

00:24:55.520 yes

00:24:56.000 there's

00:24:57.100 now

00:24:58.260 some thousand

00:24:59.400 over

00:25:00.020 a few thousand

00:25:00.900 papers published

00:25:01.820 using mindfulness

00:25:02.700 and

00:25:04.180 there's even

00:25:05.720 more

00:25:06.180 looking at

00:25:07.340 mindfulness

00:25:07.820 not just as a

00:25:08.680 meditation technique

00:25:09.560 but as a

00:25:10.380 kind of

00:25:10.860 cognitive ability

00:25:12.860 to be mindful

00:25:15.040 of

00:25:15.580 in a non-judgmental

00:25:16.680 way

00:25:16.980 but most of

00:25:18.480 these studies

00:25:19.140 we have lots

00:25:20.460 of

00:25:21.060 methodological

00:25:21.780 problems

00:25:22.320 most of

00:25:22.820 them

00:25:23.040 don't have

00:25:24.300 control groups

00:25:25.180 most of

00:25:25.660 them aren't

00:25:26.080 randomized

00:25:26.380 controlled

00:25:26.940 trials

00:25:27.540 even

00:25:29.000 even when

00:25:29.700 there are

00:25:29.960 randomized

00:25:30.240 controlled

00:25:30.760 trials

00:25:31.240 we

00:25:32.340 published

00:25:33.580 a meta

00:25:34.040 analysis

00:25:34.420 of

00:25:34.920 mindfulness

00:25:36.060 and

00:25:36.900 compassion

00:25:37.720 loving

00:25:38.100 kindness

00:25:38.560 meditation

00:25:39.200 studies

00:25:39.720 where we

00:25:40.760 found out

00:25:41.180 that there

00:25:41.440 are other

00:25:42.140 kinds of

00:25:42.600 biases

00:25:42.980 introduced

00:25:43.420 even in

00:25:44.160 in randomized

00:25:45.160 controlled

00:25:45.720 trials

00:25:46.160 for instance

00:25:46.740 you tend

00:25:49.060 to become

00:25:49.520 more

00:25:49.820 compassionate

00:25:50.420 in the

00:25:50.920 studies

00:25:51.440 where the

00:25:53.180 meditation

00:25:54.240 teacher is

00:25:55.180 also one of

00:25:55.780 the authors

00:25:56.340 in the

00:25:56.920 published

00:25:57.260 study

00:25:57.780 which means

00:25:59.140 that there's

00:25:59.540 some kind

00:25:59.900 of

00:26:00.020 experimentary

00:26:00.740 facts

00:26:01.180 which happens

00:26:01.880 when we

00:26:02.260 know it

00:26:02.500 happens

00:26:02.900 in most

00:26:04.880 experiments

00:26:05.480 that you

00:26:06.100 want your

00:26:06.560 experiments

00:26:07.040 to work

00:26:07.640 therefore

00:26:08.400 implicitly

00:26:09.160 you bias

00:26:09.640 participants

00:26:10.300 to act

00:26:11.160 in a

00:26:11.560 certain

00:26:11.800 way

00:26:12.140 so

00:26:13.600 there

00:26:13.760 yes

00:26:14.160 the basic

00:26:15.000 answer

00:26:15.280 yes

00:26:15.500 there's

00:26:15.720 still

00:26:15.860 mythological

00:26:16.400 problems

00:26:16.900 with this

00:26:18.040 kind of

00:26:18.480 research

00:26:19.100 with

00:26:19.400 mindfulness

00:26:19.840 and so

00:26:21.340 another issue

00:26:22.240 with meditation

00:26:23.080 research

00:26:23.980 just the

00:26:24.420 idea that

00:26:25.040 meditation

00:26:25.440 can have

00:26:25.740 benefits

00:26:26.220 for you

00:26:26.780 so the

00:26:27.580 first one

00:26:27.940 is

00:26:28.220 you know

00:26:28.520 meditation

00:26:28.840 might work

00:26:29.320 just because

00:26:29.760 you want

00:26:30.720 it to

00:26:30.960 work

00:26:31.260 meditation

00:26:32.140 just be

00:26:32.520 a form

00:26:32.780 of

00:26:32.920 relaxation

00:26:33.520 but

00:26:34.400 another

00:26:34.680 problem

00:26:35.460 with

00:26:35.700 meditation

00:26:36.280 that

00:26:37.400 whether it

00:26:37.940 works or

00:26:38.280 not

00:26:38.480 is that

00:26:38.720 meditation

00:26:39.120 is originally

00:26:39.680 a spiritual

00:26:40.200 practice

00:26:40.860 but

00:26:41.580 the way

00:26:42.300 it's

00:26:42.500 practiced

00:26:43.080 in the

00:26:43.740 West

00:26:44.080 it's been

00:26:44.380 stripped

00:26:44.860 of that

00:26:45.100 underlying

00:26:45.440 spiritual

00:26:45.840 nature

00:26:46.180 right

00:26:46.540 you can

00:26:46.780 just be

00:26:47.140 mindful

00:26:47.520 without

00:26:47.840 having to

00:26:48.660 identify

00:26:49.440 with any

00:26:49.860 sort of

00:26:50.160 religious

00:26:50.420 practice

00:26:50.880 but

00:26:51.160 can

00:26:52.260 meditation

00:26:52.920 be as

00:26:53.620 effective

00:26:54.140 without

00:26:55.120 being part

00:26:55.780 of some

00:26:56.080 ethical

00:26:56.460 or spiritual

00:26:57.140 framework

00:26:57.660 yeah

00:26:58.600 there's

00:26:59.020 ongoing

00:26:59.580 debates

00:27:00.060 about

00:27:00.380 this

00:27:00.720 the

00:27:01.700 problem

00:27:02.080 is

00:27:02.480 we tend

00:27:03.800 to think

00:27:04.200 that

00:27:04.500 meditation

00:27:05.100 was a

00:27:05.720 thing

00:27:06.140 was a

00:27:06.600 technique

00:27:06.940 that people

00:27:07.600 have been

00:27:07.980 practicing

00:27:08.440 for thousands

00:27:09.020 of years

00:27:09.540 and it

00:27:11.260 doesn't

00:27:11.680 that's not

00:27:12.380 the reality

00:27:13.320 there's

00:27:15.160 different

00:27:15.560 forms

00:27:16.260 of

00:27:16.760 techniques

00:27:17.540 which

00:27:17.940 in the

00:27:18.320 West

00:27:18.500 we call

00:27:18.820 contemplation

00:27:19.500 we didn't

00:27:19.900 even call

00:27:20.360 them

00:27:20.520 meditation

00:27:21.100 but the

00:27:21.920 thing is

00:27:22.240 this is

00:27:22.580 just one

00:27:23.240 part

00:27:24.000 of a

00:27:24.440 whole

00:27:24.660 package

00:27:25.300 which

00:27:25.680 involved

00:27:26.260 lots

00:27:27.560 of other

00:27:27.860 things

00:27:28.380 but for

00:27:29.380 instance

00:27:29.620 if you

00:27:30.000 go to

00:27:30.600 Asia

00:27:31.360 and you

00:27:32.080 go into

00:27:32.620 a Buddhist

00:27:32.980 temple

00:27:33.460 you don't

00:27:35.260 see people

00:27:35.640 meditating

00:27:36.100 there

00:27:36.500 people go

00:27:37.160 there to

00:27:37.500 pray

00:27:37.820 to ask

00:27:38.520 things

00:27:39.000 to the

00:27:39.480 Buddha

00:27:39.720 so it's

00:27:41.360 very similar

00:27:42.060 to what

00:27:42.460 happens

00:27:42.940 in a

00:27:43.400 church

00:27:44.460 or in a

00:27:45.000 synagogue

00:27:45.300 but we've

00:27:46.560 developed this

00:27:47.060 curious idea

00:27:47.880 that Buddhists

00:27:50.160 and Hindus

00:27:50.620 have been

00:27:51.160 doing these

00:27:52.040 things for

00:27:52.460 eight hours

00:27:52.960 a day

00:27:53.300 and that's

00:27:55.560 not true

00:27:56.200 even people

00:27:56.800 who were

00:27:57.300 sort of

00:27:58.000 monks

00:27:58.580 and nuns

00:27:59.680 who did it

00:28:00.200 for

00:28:00.520 more frequently

00:28:02.660 this was just

00:28:03.520 one part

00:28:04.120 of the

00:28:04.540 whole

00:28:04.740 package

00:28:05.160 and they

00:28:05.440 never

00:28:05.700 expected

00:28:06.420 the

00:28:07.960 meditation

00:28:08.960 technique

00:28:09.580 per se

00:28:10.160 to work

00:28:11.680 out

00:28:12.040 some kind

00:28:13.260 of wonders

00:28:13.840 it was

00:28:14.660 the whole

00:28:15.000 package

00:28:15.400 it was

00:28:15.960 the whole

00:28:16.500 way of

00:28:17.480 life

00:28:17.760 it was

00:28:18.200 renouncing

00:28:18.960 your worldly

00:28:19.920 life

00:28:20.420 giving up

00:28:21.720 everything

00:28:22.560 and studying

00:28:24.180 the sacred

00:28:25.000 scriptures

00:28:25.620 whatever

00:28:26.100 I mean

00:28:26.700 whether they're

00:28:27.260 Buddhist

00:28:27.640 or the

00:28:28.280 Bhagavad Gita

00:28:29.260 in the

00:28:29.780 Hindu

00:28:30.140 context

00:28:31.000 so

00:28:33.140 that's one

00:28:34.500 of the

00:28:34.700 problems

00:28:34.960 that we're

00:28:36.420 sort of

00:28:36.780 ignorant

00:28:37.200 about how

00:28:38.160 this works

00:28:38.680 that people

00:28:39.260 never expected

00:28:39.940 meditation

00:28:40.360 to be the

00:28:41.200 thing

00:28:41.620 but it was

00:28:42.980 the whole

00:28:43.300 package

00:28:43.740 and most

00:28:44.500 of this

00:28:44.940 so most

00:28:45.780 of these

00:28:46.080 techniques

00:28:46.580 were only

00:28:47.340 used by

00:28:47.920 a very

00:28:48.500 very

00:28:49.160 restricted

00:28:50.160 elite

00:28:50.620 of these

00:28:51.340 people who

00:28:51.800 left

00:28:52.040 everything

00:28:52.440 behind

00:28:52.900 which were

00:28:55.420 a tiny

00:28:55.720 minority

00:28:56.280 the other

00:28:57.500 problem

00:28:57.860 which is

00:28:58.340 I'm not

00:28:59.860 sure I'd

00:29:00.120 call it

00:29:00.320 a problem

00:29:00.760 it's really

00:29:01.500 really

00:29:01.760 interesting

00:29:02.200 it's just

00:29:03.240 the way

00:29:03.640 that we

00:29:04.700 think

00:29:06.060 about the

00:29:07.000 world

00:29:07.420 these days

00:29:08.240 that

00:29:08.540 everything

00:29:09.440 can be

00:29:09.940 used

00:29:10.280 to be

00:29:11.040 turned

00:29:11.280 into

00:29:11.780 something

00:29:12.100 else

00:29:12.540 into

00:29:12.980 a mental

00:29:13.900 health

00:29:14.260 gadget

00:29:14.720 or

00:29:15.340 whatever

00:29:15.740 and this

00:29:17.160 of course

00:29:17.600 goes

00:29:17.880 completely

00:29:18.420 against

00:29:18.840 the

00:29:19.100 spirits

00:29:19.540 of

00:29:20.040 some

00:29:20.340 of

00:29:20.480 these

00:29:20.640 world

00:29:20.980 religions

00:29:21.440 like

00:29:21.780 Buddhism

00:29:22.240 so you

00:29:23.280 were never

00:29:23.560 expected

00:29:24.120 to be

00:29:24.620 using

00:29:25.060 any of

00:29:26.600 these

00:29:26.900 techniques

00:29:27.480 for your

00:29:28.280 own

00:29:28.480 personal

00:29:28.840 gain

00:29:29.180 no

00:29:29.460 no

00:29:29.720 it was

00:29:30.200 quite

00:29:30.520 the

00:29:30.660 opposite

00:29:30.960 you were

00:29:31.280 supposed

00:29:31.540 to use

00:29:32.020 this

00:29:32.340 to erase

00:29:33.840 the idea

00:29:34.240 of personal

00:29:34.760 gains

00:29:35.160 and to

00:29:35.480 erase

00:29:35.960 your sense

00:29:36.520 of self

00:29:37.100 to become

00:29:37.480 more selfless

00:29:38.200 not to

00:29:38.640 become

00:29:39.000 a better

00:29:40.140 self

00:29:40.660 so

00:29:42.640 so that's

00:29:43.260 that's

00:29:43.940 really

00:29:44.200 creating

00:29:45.300 an interesting

00:29:47.660 existential

00:29:48.680 paradox

00:29:49.240 but

00:29:49.740 the

00:29:50.240 intention

00:29:50.560 is very

00:29:50.980 different

00:29:51.360 from the

00:29:51.880 original

00:29:52.280 right

00:29:53.460 so us

00:29:54.000 individualistic

00:29:54.860 westerners

00:29:55.520 have made

00:29:56.320 a selfless

00:29:57.240 act

00:29:57.660 into

00:29:57.900 a selfish

00:29:58.560 act

00:29:58.860 in a way

00:29:59.260 yeah

00:29:59.720 I have

00:30:00.680 to say

00:30:01.020 I have

00:30:01.800 to

00:30:02.000 create

00:30:03.100 a nuance

00:30:03.700 here

00:30:04.100 in the

00:30:04.800 sense

00:30:05.000 that

00:30:05.340 within

00:30:07.240 the eastern

00:30:08.480 traditions

00:30:09.100 there is

00:30:10.900 a variety

00:30:11.420 of ways

00:30:12.080 in which

00:30:12.780 these

00:30:13.940 contemplative

00:30:14.700 meditative

00:30:15.220 techniques

00:30:15.620 have been

00:30:16.020 used

00:30:16.400 so within

00:30:17.600 some

00:30:18.000 Indian

00:30:18.560 schools

00:30:18.940 of

00:30:19.160 tantra

00:30:19.680 some

00:30:21.540 people

00:30:21.820 were using

00:30:22.340 this

00:30:22.660 to try

00:30:23.040 to obtain

00:30:23.660 particular

00:30:24.680 paranormal

00:30:25.260 powers

00:30:26.000 or even

00:30:26.540 to extend

00:30:28.240 your

00:30:29.800 I mean

00:30:30.980 your life

00:30:31.560 so that

00:30:32.620 you could

00:30:32.840 live for

00:30:33.180 much longer

00:30:33.760 I mean

00:30:34.360 concerns

00:30:34.920 that we

00:30:35.260 have had

00:30:35.640 for a

00:30:35.940 very long

00:30:36.320 time

00:30:36.640 so it's

00:30:37.780 not that

00:30:38.360 there weren't

00:30:39.080 people

00:30:39.740 thinking of

00:30:40.960 how I can

00:30:41.640 use this

00:30:42.140 for my

00:30:42.700 own

00:30:42.920 personal gain

00:30:43.740 back then

00:30:44.780 there's

00:30:45.080 always been

00:30:46.640 that possibility

00:30:49.120 it's just

00:30:50.240 that

00:30:50.540 that used

00:30:52.180 to be

00:30:52.860 sort of

00:30:53.440 the exception

00:30:54.020 but it's

00:30:55.100 become now

00:30:55.700 the norm

00:30:56.840 yeah

00:30:58.160 and I think

00:30:58.500 the other

00:30:58.780 issue of

00:30:59.240 when you

00:30:59.600 try to

00:31:00.500 extract

00:31:01.440 meditation

00:31:02.340 spiritual

00:31:02.660 practice

00:31:03.060 from that

00:31:03.460 ethical

00:31:03.820 framework

00:31:04.440 you get

00:31:05.440 the idea

00:31:06.820 that you

00:31:07.200 can become

00:31:07.620 more

00:31:07.860 compassionate

00:31:08.360 just by

00:31:08.940 sitting

00:31:09.560 alone

00:31:10.080 in your

00:31:10.840 room

00:31:11.180 thinking

00:31:12.040 loving

00:31:12.480 kindness

00:31:13.080 thoughts

00:31:13.520 I mean

00:31:13.740 that can

00:31:13.980 help

00:31:14.240 but like

00:31:14.660 really

00:31:14.880 the work

00:31:15.280 a day

00:31:15.520 stuff

00:31:15.800 of actually

00:31:16.200 being

00:31:16.480 compassionate

00:31:16.940 is

00:31:17.160 being

00:31:17.800 around

00:31:18.100 people

00:31:18.660 right

00:31:19.660 that annoy

00:31:20.240 you

00:31:20.400 and actually

00:31:20.780 being

00:31:21.180 compassionate

00:31:21.680 in that

00:31:22.060 moment

00:31:23.300 where you

00:31:23.760 have to

00:31:24.160 do it

00:31:24.420 right

00:31:24.560 so like

00:31:24.940 with

00:31:25.560 Buddhism

00:31:25.920 there's

00:31:26.660 a

00:31:26.860 you're

00:31:27.460 embedded

00:31:27.760 in a

00:31:28.040 community

00:31:28.380 that

00:31:28.640 reinforces

00:31:29.560 those ideas

00:31:30.220 as well

00:31:30.660 yeah

00:31:30.840 absolutely

00:31:31.240 and I

00:31:32.300 have to

00:31:32.520 say as

00:31:32.900 a

00:31:33.020 psychologist

00:31:33.400 I am

00:31:33.800 somewhat

00:31:34.100 disappointed

00:31:34.620 that we've

00:31:35.920 driven ourselves

00:31:36.620 to think

00:31:37.200 in a very

00:31:38.120 counterintuitive

00:31:38.900 and sometimes

00:31:39.780 silly way

00:31:40.500 and there are

00:31:42.980 various reasons

00:31:43.640 why as

00:31:44.320 psychological

00:31:44.820 researchers we

00:31:45.600 have been

00:31:45.920 pushed in

00:31:46.780 this way

00:31:47.320 well mostly

00:31:49.980 because

00:31:50.460 there is

00:31:52.420 money to

00:31:52.860 do research

00:31:53.500 and they

00:31:54.020 want the

00:31:54.340 research being

00:31:55.020 done in a

00:31:55.760 certain way

00:31:56.320 so part of

00:31:57.460 our brain

00:31:58.000 shuts off

00:31:58.860 and we

00:31:59.640 go where

00:32:00.020 the money

00:32:00.340 is

00:32:00.620 which is

00:32:00.960 really

00:32:01.180 stupid

00:32:01.680 and that

00:32:03.240 it's not

00:32:04.320 very helpful

00:32:04.740 of course

00:32:05.220 I mean

00:32:05.580 any sensible

00:32:06.700 psychologist

00:32:07.360 would tell

00:32:09.080 you that

00:32:09.320 you're

00:32:09.480 absolutely

00:32:09.780 right

00:32:10.180 that things

00:32:10.820 done within

00:32:11.280 a group

00:32:11.840 context

00:32:12.440 are usually

00:32:13.720 much more

00:32:14.300 powerful

00:32:14.780 the other

00:32:17.060 thing

00:32:17.460 that we

00:32:18.600 know also

00:32:19.160 from history

00:32:19.940 is that

00:32:21.020 whenever

00:32:21.820 there are

00:32:22.700 movements

00:32:23.440 in which

00:32:24.900 you seem

00:32:25.400 to start

00:32:25.860 caring more

00:32:26.720 about

00:32:27.260 ideas

00:32:28.720 which

00:32:29.060 drive

00:32:29.500 you

00:32:29.680 away

00:32:29.960 from

00:32:30.580 the

00:32:31.260 world

00:32:31.600 and

00:32:31.800 social

00:32:32.120 movement

00:32:32.580 and

00:32:32.920 within

00:32:33.180 yourself

00:32:33.640 and this

00:32:34.360 has been

00:32:34.780 happening

00:32:35.160 since

00:32:35.600 ancient

00:32:36.100 Greek

00:32:36.360 there have

00:32:36.660 been

00:32:36.800 philosophical

00:32:37.240 movements

00:32:37.900 that have

00:32:38.760 said very

00:32:39.200 similar

00:32:39.480 things

00:32:39.780 oh no

00:32:40.140 you just

00:32:40.780 have to

00:32:41.180 think

00:32:41.560 in a

00:32:41.760 different

00:32:42.020 way

00:32:42.280 you don't

00:32:42.560 have to

00:32:42.900 care

00:32:43.200 about

00:32:43.580 the

00:32:45.000 world

00:32:45.280 about

00:32:45.580 politics

00:32:46.220 this is

00:32:47.880 a sort

00:32:48.240 of

00:32:48.540 coping

00:32:49.060 out

00:32:49.460 thing

00:32:50.240 it's

00:32:50.700 like

00:32:50.960 we've

00:32:51.880 reached

00:32:52.220 one of

00:32:52.840 those

00:32:53.100 civilizational

00:32:53.900 stages

00:32:54.400 where

00:32:54.840 we just

00:32:56.240 don't

00:32:56.460 think

00:32:56.720 that

00:32:57.020 much

00:32:58.120 of

00:32:58.300 what

00:32:58.480 we

00:32:58.620 do

00:32:58.760 can

00:32:58.960 have

00:32:59.240 any

00:32:59.460 real

00:32:59.680 influence

00:33:00.360 in

00:33:01.080 the

00:33:01.220 world

00:33:01.640 so

00:33:02.620 we

00:33:02.840 become

00:33:03.220 we are

00:33:03.980 just

00:33:04.360 driven

00:33:04.720 much

00:33:04.960 more

00:33:05.220 inwards

00:33:05.860 because

00:33:06.220 we've

00:33:06.540 sort

00:33:06.740 of

00:33:06.860 given

00:33:07.100 up

00:33:07.360 on

00:33:07.500 the

00:33:07.600 idea

00:33:07.840 that

00:33:08.120 as

00:33:09.080 we

00:33:09.840 can

00:33:10.060 create

00:33:10.620 groups

00:33:10.960 of

00:33:11.140 people

00:33:11.520 that

00:33:12.100 actually

00:33:12.560 make

00:33:13.160 a

00:33:13.280 difference

00:33:13.740 and

00:33:14.260 that's

00:33:14.560 really

00:33:15.040 sad

00:33:15.500 yeah

00:33:17.500 it's

00:33:18.580 it's

00:33:19.900 just

00:33:20.100 where

00:33:20.360 we

00:33:20.540 are

00:33:20.820 the

00:33:21.600 stage

00:33:21.940 in

00:33:22.120 which

00:33:22.500 we

00:33:22.660 are

00:33:22.780 I

00:33:22.940 think

00:33:23.200 that

00:33:23.720 part

00:33:24.100 of

00:33:24.240 what

00:33:24.840 is

00:33:25.000 driving

00:33:25.540 the

00:33:26.160 interest

00:33:26.460 in

00:33:26.620 mindfulness

00:33:27.080 is

00:33:28.760 actually

00:33:29.760 a

00:33:30.920 sort

00:33:31.180 of

00:33:31.500 hopelessness

00:33:32.820 about

00:33:33.600 our

00:33:33.840 future

00:33:34.320 and our

00:33:34.800 current

00:33:35.300 situation

00:33:36.120 and I

00:33:36.640 think

00:33:36.760 it

00:33:36.860 also

00:33:37.220 speaks

00:33:38.340 to

00:33:38.520 the

00:33:38.740 increased

00:33:39.260 interest

00:33:39.920 in

00:33:40.120 stoicism

00:33:40.580 as well

00:33:41.440 in the

00:33:41.860 past

00:33:42.140 decade

00:33:42.720 stoicism

00:33:44.180 is very

00:33:44.460 similar

00:33:44.820 it's

00:33:45.060 like

00:33:45.220 well

00:33:45.480 the

00:33:46.460 thing

00:33:46.720 itself

00:33:47.160 doesn't

00:33:47.440 hurt

00:33:47.580 you

00:33:47.680 just

00:33:47.840 how

00:33:48.020 you

00:33:48.160 think

00:33:48.400 about

00:33:48.660 it

00:33:48.920 right

00:33:49.340 and

00:33:50.220 you

00:33:50.500 know

00:33:50.640 there's

00:33:51.080 nothing

00:33:51.240 you can

00:33:51.480 do

00:33:51.600 like

00:33:51.780 you

00:33:51.880 know

00:33:52.060 then

00:33:52.580 don't

00:33:52.760 worry

00:33:52.980 about

00:33:53.240 it

00:33:53.400 it's

00:33:53.600 okay

00:33:53.900 yeah

00:33:54.120 but

00:33:54.380 there

00:33:55.220 again

00:33:55.500 it's

00:33:56.060 a

00:33:56.180 very

00:33:56.320 very

00:33:56.520 interesting

00:33:56.800 example

00:33:57.300 how

00:33:58.020 stoicism

00:33:58.380 also

00:33:58.940 happened

00:33:59.420 at

00:34:00.340 a

00:34:00.660 particular

00:34:00.960 historical

00:34:01.420 moment

00:34:01.800 when

00:34:01.980 lots

00:34:02.200 of

00:34:02.360 people

00:34:02.680 were

00:34:03.660 feeling

00:34:03.960 that

00:34:04.320 no

00:34:04.640 there's

00:34:05.060 no

00:34:05.240 point

00:34:05.600 in

00:34:05.820 engaging

00:34:06.240 more

00:34:06.620 with

00:34:06.860 the

00:34:07.000 social

00:34:07.400 world

00:34:08.060 as

00:34:08.260 it

00:34:08.400 is

00:34:08.780 let's

00:34:09.900 just

00:34:10.040 find

00:34:10.380 another

00:34:11.020 way

00:34:11.340 of

00:34:12.380 perfecting

00:34:12.900 ourselves

00:34:13.460 so

00:34:14.500 when

00:34:14.660 you've

00:34:15.060 taken

00:34:15.260 a look

00:34:15.480 at

00:34:15.600 this

00:34:15.760 research

00:34:16.360 I

00:34:16.860 mean

00:34:17.000 are

00:34:17.260 the

00:34:17.440 claims

00:34:17.880 that

00:34:18.400 meditation

00:34:19.260 proponents

00:34:19.640 make

00:34:19.980 is there

00:34:20.280 something

00:34:20.500 to that

00:34:20.800 doesn't

00:34:21.060 can it

00:34:21.380 actually

00:34:21.740 alleviate

00:34:22.260 depression

00:34:22.820 for example

00:34:23.340 that's

00:34:23.640 one

00:34:23.800 you've

00:34:24.000 seen

00:34:24.100 or

00:34:24.240 anxiety

00:34:24.780 which

00:34:25.440 are

00:34:25.620 two

00:34:26.140 mental

00:34:26.920 health

00:34:27.160 issues

00:34:27.380 that a

00:34:27.640 lot

00:34:27.800 of

00:34:27.900 people

00:34:28.060 are

00:34:28.200 struggling

00:34:28.460 with

00:34:28.680 today

00:34:28.980 so

00:34:29.580 yes

00:34:30.100 but

00:34:31.060 it

00:34:32.440 can

00:34:32.620 alleviate

00:34:32.920 things

00:34:33.380 like

00:34:33.660 the

00:34:34.140 better

00:34:34.500 evidence

00:34:34.880 is

00:34:35.100 for

00:34:35.380 people

00:34:35.780 who

00:34:36.020 have

00:34:36.260 had

00:34:36.640 three

00:34:37.360 or

00:34:37.540 more

00:34:37.740 episodes

00:34:38.260 of

00:34:38.800 depression

00:34:39.380 so

00:34:40.760 to

00:34:40.940 prevent

00:34:41.440 them

00:34:41.840 from

00:34:42.160 relapsing

00:34:42.840 into

00:34:43.120 depression

00:34:43.620 depression

00:34:44.680 is

00:34:45.000 a

00:34:45.360 horrible

00:34:45.660 thing

00:34:46.140 it's

00:34:47.040 a

00:34:47.480 kind

00:34:47.680 of

00:34:47.820 a

00:34:48.160 I

00:34:49.220 mean

00:34:49.340 I'm

00:34:49.640 talking

00:34:49.840 metaphorically

00:34:50.640 almost

00:34:51.660 like a

00:34:51.960 virus

00:34:52.180 that

00:34:52.380 stays

00:34:52.880 within

00:34:53.120 you

00:34:53.280 like

00:34:53.480 malaria

00:34:54.020 that

00:34:54.260 never

00:34:54.520 leaves

00:34:54.960 and

00:34:56.520 if

00:34:57.120 you've

00:34:57.340 had

00:34:57.540 it

00:34:57.800 three

00:34:59.020 times

00:34:59.480 then

00:34:59.700 it's

00:34:59.940 just

00:35:00.160 the odds

00:35:01.220 of you

00:35:01.780 having

00:35:02.200 it

00:35:02.420 again

00:35:02.760 just

00:35:03.040 increased

00:35:03.680 tremendously

00:35:04.280 and

00:35:05.800 that's

00:35:06.220 the

00:35:06.420 reason

00:35:06.640 why

00:35:06.880 people

00:35:07.080 like

00:35:07.360 Mark

00:35:07.680 Williams

00:35:08.120 and

00:35:09.620 others

00:35:10.040 started

00:35:10.400 looking

00:35:10.740 at

00:35:11.020 using

00:35:11.380 mindfulness

00:35:12.040 meditation

00:35:13.280 they were

00:35:15.060 all doing

00:35:15.480 cognitive

00:35:15.860 behavior

00:35:16.220 therapy

00:35:16.720 and

00:35:17.680 realized

00:35:18.100 that

00:35:18.280 there

00:35:18.420 is

00:35:18.540 this

00:35:18.740 subgroup

00:35:19.240 of

00:35:20.160 people

00:35:20.420 who

00:35:20.600 keep

00:35:20.840 getting

00:35:21.200 depression

00:35:21.720 and

00:35:23.160 cognitive

00:35:23.860 behavior

00:35:24.140 therapy

00:35:24.640 had

00:35:25.800 its

00:35:26.020 limits

00:35:26.480 in

00:35:26.860 how

00:35:27.000 effective

00:35:27.400 it

00:35:27.600 could

00:35:27.780 be

00:35:27.940 so

00:35:28.100 they

00:35:28.220 started

00:35:28.480 looking

00:35:28.880 elsewhere

00:35:29.440 and

00:35:30.880 there

00:35:31.560 are

00:35:31.660 some

00:35:31.840 good

00:35:32.080 results

00:35:32.700 for

00:35:34.200 mindfulness

00:35:35.180 when

00:35:35.460 used

00:35:35.760 within

00:35:36.000 this

00:35:36.260 context

00:35:36.820 what

00:35:38.220 is

00:35:38.420 curious

00:35:38.800 is

00:35:39.120 that

00:35:39.300 it

00:35:39.460 seems

00:35:39.680 to

00:35:39.840 work

00:35:40.000 better

00:35:40.400 for

00:35:40.600 some

00:35:40.880 people

00:35:41.200 even

00:35:41.460 within

00:35:41.760 this

00:35:42.120 specific

00:35:42.760 sample

00:35:43.360 of

00:35:44.420 recurrent

00:35:45.400 depressed

00:35:45.800 people

00:35:46.220 so

00:35:47.600 those

00:35:47.960 who

00:35:48.140 have

00:35:48.620 higher

00:35:50.080 childhood

00:35:50.680 trauma

00:35:51.280 they

00:35:51.860 react

00:35:52.280 better

00:35:52.840 to

00:35:53.840 meditation

00:35:54.460 and

00:35:55.340 we

00:35:55.520 still

00:35:55.700 don't

00:35:55.920 know

00:35:56.220 why

00:35:56.480 that

00:35:56.720 is

00:35:57.000 now

00:35:57.800 with

00:35:57.980 things

00:35:58.180 like

00:35:58.460 anxiety

00:35:59.280 pain

00:36:00.760 stress

00:36:01.480 with

00:36:02.720 anxiety

00:36:03.220 and

00:36:03.460 pain

00:36:03.680 for

00:36:03.860 instance

00:36:04.100 there

00:36:04.280 is

00:36:04.400 some

00:36:04.560 evidence

00:36:04.880 that

00:36:05.120 it

00:36:05.240 works

00:36:05.620 there

00:36:06.080 is

00:36:06.360 moderate

00:36:07.060 evidence

00:36:07.580 that

00:36:07.920 it

00:36:08.340 can

00:36:08.520 help

00:36:08.800 you

00:36:08.980 for

00:36:09.960 stress

00:36:10.500 there

00:36:10.880 really

00:36:11.080 is

00:36:11.320 very

00:36:11.580 very

00:36:11.820 weak

00:36:12.120 evidence

00:36:12.540 that

00:36:12.800 it

00:36:12.940 can

00:36:13.100 help

00:36:13.400 you

00:36:13.600 strangely

00:36:14.620 enough

00:36:15.060 because

00:36:15.380 the

00:36:15.620 first

00:36:16.000 application

00:36:18.120 of

00:36:18.380 mindfulness

00:36:18.820 by

00:36:19.540 Kabatzin

00:36:19.980 was

00:36:20.320 particularly

00:36:20.800 directed

00:36:21.320 at

00:36:21.560 stress

00:36:22.040 but

00:36:24.560 on

00:36:26.120 the

00:36:26.300 other

00:36:26.500 hand

00:36:26.860 what

00:36:27.320 I

00:36:27.760 always

00:36:27.980 try

00:36:28.240 to

00:36:28.440 highlight

00:36:28.900 is

00:36:29.780 that

00:36:29.900 everything

00:36:31.480 the

00:36:31.780 results

00:36:32.320 indicate

00:36:33.140 is

00:36:33.560 that

00:36:33.800 it

00:36:35.200 works

00:36:35.560 differently

00:36:36.120 for

00:36:37.180 various

00:36:38.160 problems

00:36:38.820 but

00:36:40.240 it

00:36:41.700 usually

00:36:42.260 doesn't

00:36:42.720 work

00:36:42.960 better

00:36:43.420 than

00:36:43.740 other

00:36:44.100 techniques

00:36:44.660 or

00:36:44.940 nothing

00:36:45.900 in the

00:36:46.160 results

00:36:46.560 shows

00:36:46.960 that

00:36:47.140 it's

00:36:47.340 something

00:36:47.680 miraculous

00:36:48.800 or even

00:36:49.220 quasi

00:36:49.640 miraculous

00:36:50.560 okay

00:36:51.640 so

00:36:52.020 it's

00:36:52.220 not

00:36:52.460 the

00:36:52.820 hype

00:36:53.220 there

00:36:53.420 might

00:36:53.580 be

00:36:53.680 a lot

00:36:53.880 of

00:36:53.980 hype

00:36:54.180 about

00:36:54.460 it

00:36:54.640 so

00:36:55.000 it

00:36:55.560 can

00:36:55.740 work

00:36:56.140 for

00:36:57.000 some

00:36:57.200 people

00:36:57.600 might

00:36:58.140 not

00:36:58.280 work

00:36:58.420 for

00:36:58.540 other

00:36:58.680 people

00:36:59.020 but

00:36:59.620 I

00:36:59.800 thought

00:36:59.960 the

00:37:00.180 interesting

00:37:00.480 thing

00:37:00.700 about

00:37:00.900 this

00:37:01.080 book

00:37:01.240 and

00:37:01.300 the

00:37:01.400 reason

00:37:01.560 it

00:37:02.300 caught

00:37:02.460 my

00:37:02.640 eye

00:37:02.940 when

00:37:03.160 I

00:37:03.260 first

00:37:03.500 came

00:37:03.800 across

00:37:04.100 it

00:37:04.260 is

00:37:04.340 that

00:37:04.520 whenever

00:37:05.560 you

00:37:05.740 hear

00:37:06.460 about

00:37:06.740 or read

00:37:07.020 about

00:37:07.180 meditation

00:37:07.660 it's

00:37:08.200 always

00:37:08.420 positive

00:37:08.900 like

00:37:09.140 meditation

00:37:09.560 can

00:37:10.040 help

00:37:10.400 depression

00:37:11.440 anxiety

00:37:12.000 stress

00:37:12.580 etc

00:37:12.900 but

00:37:13.680 they never

00:37:13.920 talk

00:37:14.220 about

00:37:14.620 the

00:37:15.080 negatives

00:37:15.660 like

00:37:15.960 the

00:37:16.140 downsides

00:37:16.840 of

00:37:17.040 meditation

00:37:17.540 but

00:37:18.560 there's

00:37:18.760 actually

00:37:19.060 research

00:37:19.620 on

00:37:19.840 that

00:37:20.020 so

00:37:20.280 walk

00:37:20.840 us

00:37:21.020 through

00:37:21.200 what

00:37:21.500 are

00:37:21.620 the

00:37:22.040 downsides

00:37:22.840 of

00:37:23.120 meditating

00:37:23.640 so

00:37:24.720 this

00:37:26.320 is a

00:37:26.620 sensitive

00:37:27.020 issue

00:37:27.840 and

00:37:29.140 there

00:37:29.360 are

00:37:29.480 people

00:37:29.700 who

00:37:29.880 feel

00:37:30.060 very

00:37:30.400 very

00:37:30.660 strongly

00:37:31.140 about

00:37:31.920 this

00:37:32.360 in the

00:37:32.700 sense

00:37:32.900 that

00:37:33.160 if

00:37:33.940 there

00:37:35.000 is

00:37:35.140 literature

00:37:35.500 going

00:37:35.840 back

00:37:36.180 to

00:37:36.320 the

00:37:36.440 early

00:37:36.600 70s

00:37:37.340 showing

00:37:38.460 that

00:37:38.860 there

00:37:39.160 are

00:37:40.040 paradoxical

00:37:40.880 effects

00:37:41.400 this

00:37:42.780 was

00:37:42.980 highlighted

00:37:43.480 first

00:37:43.920 with the

00:37:44.400 physical

00:37:44.960 relaxation

00:37:45.480 literature

00:37:46.220 some

00:37:47.280 people

00:37:47.620 have

00:37:48.060 what

00:37:48.420 they

00:37:48.580 call

00:37:48.720 a

00:37:48.840 paradoxical

00:37:49.460 reaction

00:37:49.820 this

00:37:50.060 is

00:37:50.200 supposed

00:37:50.420 to

00:37:50.620 make

00:37:50.760 you

00:37:50.860 feel

00:37:50.980 more

00:37:51.140 relaxed

00:37:51.460 but

00:37:51.700 for

00:37:52.820 some

00:37:53.000 people

00:37:53.240 it

00:37:53.380 makes

00:37:53.640 them

00:37:53.860 more

00:37:54.820 anxious

00:37:55.540 to the

00:37:57.240 point

00:37:57.380 of having

00:37:57.740 a

00:37:57.900 panic

00:37:58.160 attack

00:37:58.460 when

00:37:58.620 you're

00:37:58.760 supposed

00:37:59.100 to be

00:37:59.440 physically

00:37:59.780 relaxing

00:38:00.300 so

00:38:02.080 going

00:38:02.300 back

00:38:02.540 to

00:38:02.660 the

00:38:02.780 early

00:38:02.920 70s

00:38:03.420 you

00:38:03.540 start

00:38:03.780 to

00:38:03.960 get

00:38:04.240 first

00:38:05.640 case

00:38:05.980 studies

00:38:06.300 of

00:38:06.540 people

00:38:06.940 who

00:38:08.280 go on

00:38:08.600 meditation

00:38:09.060 retreats

00:38:09.580 and they

00:38:09.820 have

00:38:10.180 psychotic

00:38:11.220 episodes

00:38:11.980 some

00:38:13.040 surveys

00:38:13.420 showing

00:38:13.740 that

00:38:13.960 some

00:38:14.160 people

00:38:14.380 are

00:38:14.540 getting

00:38:14.780 more

00:38:15.000 anxious

00:38:15.360 and

00:38:15.840 more

00:38:16.020 depressed

00:38:16.540 that

00:38:18.000 other

00:38:18.820 people

00:38:19.240 feel

00:38:20.440 all

00:38:20.760 sorts

00:38:21.080 of

00:38:21.980 unexpected

00:38:22.720 things

00:38:23.760 so

00:38:26.180 this

00:38:26.580 has

00:38:27.260 sort of

00:38:27.720 been

00:38:27.900 under

00:38:28.240 the rug

00:38:29.020 with

00:38:29.840 mindfulness

00:38:30.480 until

00:38:31.220 the last

00:38:31.820 few

00:38:32.200 years

00:38:32.560 actually

00:38:32.980 I think

00:38:33.260 it was

00:38:33.660 our

00:38:34.360 book

00:38:34.760 that

00:38:35.980 explicitly

00:38:36.520 tried

00:38:37.080 to

00:38:37.360 address

00:38:37.720 this

00:38:37.900 and

00:38:38.140 we

00:38:39.380 weren't

00:38:39.680 expecting

00:38:40.300 to do

00:38:40.780 so

00:38:41.140 I

00:38:41.720 remember

00:38:42.020 that

00:38:42.300 when we

00:38:42.920 wrote

00:38:43.140 a book

00:38:43.380 proposal

00:38:43.780 we

00:38:44.520 wanted

00:38:44.720 to

00:38:44.840 have

00:38:44.980 a

00:38:45.120 chapter

00:38:45.420 that

00:38:45.660 focused

00:38:46.000 on

00:38:46.200 how

00:38:46.400 meditation

00:38:46.940 could

00:38:47.260 be

00:38:47.440 used

00:38:47.820 for

00:38:48.460 ill

00:38:48.720 purposes

00:38:49.180 but

00:38:49.400 we

00:38:49.520 were

00:38:49.600 more

00:38:49.780 thinking

00:38:50.080 like

00:38:50.420 within

00:38:51.160 some

00:38:51.500 small

00:38:51.940 religious

00:38:52.300 groups

00:38:52.700 some

00:38:52.920 people

00:38:53.140 might

00:38:53.380 use

00:38:53.640 this

00:38:53.900 to

00:38:54.920 manipulate

00:38:55.340 individuals

00:38:55.980 but

00:38:57.220 when we

00:38:58.000 were doing

00:38:58.300 the research

00:38:58.820 for the

00:38:59.100 book

00:38:59.340 we then

00:38:59.660 realized

00:39:00.020 that

00:39:00.300 there

00:39:00.660 was

00:39:00.860 this

00:39:01.100 literature

00:39:01.520 that

00:39:01.840 had

00:39:02.020 been

00:39:02.160 mostly

00:39:02.520 forgotten

00:39:03.080 so

00:39:05.840 basically

00:39:06.860 we

00:39:07.160 still

00:39:07.380 don't

00:39:07.720 know

00:39:08.160 why

00:39:10.340 exactly

00:39:10.900 it

00:39:11.160 happens

00:39:11.840 some

00:39:12.920 people

00:39:13.180 we

00:39:13.780 know

00:39:13.960 that

00:39:14.160 it

00:39:14.280 happens

00:39:14.600 and

00:39:14.760 now

00:39:14.900 there

00:39:15.020 is

00:39:15.140 a

00:39:15.260 general

00:39:15.560 acknowledgement

00:39:16.120 what

00:39:16.500 has

00:39:16.720 happened

00:39:17.000 since

00:39:17.260 we've

00:39:17.480 published

00:39:17.740 the

00:39:17.900 book

00:39:18.060 until

00:39:18.280 now

00:39:18.560 is

00:39:19.200 that

00:39:19.320 there

00:39:19.440 is

00:39:19.620 a

00:39:20.200 much

00:39:20.520 more

00:39:21.000 general

00:39:21.360 acknowledgement

00:39:22.040 particularly

00:39:23.300 amongst

00:39:23.680 researchers

00:39:24.180 that

00:39:24.500 these

00:39:25.360 do

00:39:25.560 happen

00:39:25.980 there

00:39:26.860 are

00:39:27.120 these

00:39:27.400 so

00:39:27.620 called

00:39:27.860 challenging

00:39:28.460 experiences

00:39:29.240 or even

00:39:29.700 adverse

00:39:30.220 effects

00:39:31.060 associated

00:39:31.760 with

00:39:32.040 meditation

00:39:32.580 there

00:39:35.020 is

00:39:35.160 a

00:39:35.280 huge

00:39:35.560 disagreement

00:39:36.000 about

00:39:37.060 what

00:39:37.540 may be

00:39:37.880 the

00:39:38.040 causes

00:39:38.360 for

00:39:39.200 this

00:39:39.560 some

00:39:40.440 would

00:39:40.580 say

00:39:40.760 that

00:39:41.000 it

00:39:41.240 has

00:39:41.440 nothing

00:39:41.820 to do

00:39:42.100 with

00:39:42.180 meditation

00:39:42.760 the

00:39:43.760 problem

00:39:44.200 is

00:39:44.860 with

00:39:45.840 individuals

00:39:46.600 personal

00:39:48.580 history

00:39:49.160 or

00:39:49.740 whatsoever

00:39:50.420 I

00:39:52.020 think

00:39:52.180 that's

00:39:52.940 rather

00:39:53.340 arrogant

00:39:54.140 the

00:39:55.640 straight

00:39:55.960 answer

00:39:56.300 is

00:39:56.480 that

00:39:56.680 we

00:39:57.160 don't

00:39:57.460 know

00:39:57.740 yet

00:39:58.140 we

00:39:58.660 don't

00:39:58.880 know

00:39:59.180 there's

00:40:00.600 evidence

00:40:01.100 that

00:40:01.500 sometimes

00:40:02.100 it

00:40:02.300 happens

00:40:02.580 with

00:40:02.760 people

00:40:03.000 who

00:40:03.120 have

00:40:03.220 a

00:40:03.320 mental

00:40:03.480 health

00:40:03.720 history

00:40:04.120 other

00:40:04.900 times

00:40:05.300 people

00:40:05.660 seem

00:40:05.900 to have

00:40:06.140 no

00:40:06.360 mental

00:40:06.580 health

00:40:06.840 problems

00:40:07.300 at all

00:40:07.840 now

00:40:08.960 the

00:40:10.560 sort of

00:40:11.900 spectrum

00:40:12.420 of

00:40:13.340 potential

00:40:13.760 adverse

00:40:14.240 events

00:40:14.780 varies

00:40:15.200 considerably

00:40:16.020 most

00:40:18.240 most

00:40:18.260 of

00:40:18.960 these

00:40:19.580 negative

00:40:20.980 effects

00:40:21.580 aren't

00:40:22.820 the

00:40:23.280 most

00:40:23.500 extreme

00:40:24.020 such

00:40:24.300 as

00:40:24.480 psychosis

00:40:25.300 most

00:40:26.140 of

00:40:26.300 them

00:40:26.420 have

00:40:26.620 simply

00:40:26.920 to do

00:40:27.220 with

00:40:27.340 increases

00:40:27.880 in

00:40:28.380 anxiety

00:40:29.020 or

00:40:30.040 depression

00:40:30.640 those

00:40:32.080 would

00:40:32.200 be

00:40:32.280 the

00:40:32.420 majority

00:40:32.780 of

00:40:33.080 them

00:40:33.360 the

00:40:35.020 people

00:40:35.380 who

00:40:35.620 seem

00:40:35.860 to

00:40:36.200 do

00:40:36.640 it

00:40:36.780 for

00:40:36.960 longer

00:40:37.400 tend

00:40:37.680 to

00:40:37.840 experience

00:40:38.620 more

00:40:39.680 difficulties

00:40:40.340 is

00:40:40.680 but

00:40:41.840 we're

00:40:43.460 still

00:40:43.620 unclear

00:40:43.880 why

00:40:44.140 that

00:40:44.360 is

00:40:44.760 if

00:40:45.180 it's

00:40:45.440 simply

00:40:45.680 because

00:40:46.140 if

00:40:46.560 you're

00:40:46.700 doing

00:40:46.880 it

00:40:47.020 for

00:40:47.160 much

00:40:47.380 longer

00:40:47.720 it's

00:40:48.820 just

00:40:49.060 much

00:40:49.520 more

00:40:49.740 likely

00:40:50.060 that

00:40:50.300 through

00:40:50.500 your

00:40:50.660 normal

00:40:51.140 experience

00:40:52.300 something

00:40:52.780 will

00:40:53.000 happen

00:40:53.340 and

00:40:53.860 because

00:40:54.100 you're

00:40:54.280 doing

00:40:54.400 meditation

00:40:54.800 every

00:40:55.100 day

00:40:55.300 that

00:40:55.580 there

00:40:56.540 will

00:40:56.640 be

00:40:56.780 a

00:40:56.920 coincidence

00:40:57.340 but

00:40:59.240 it

00:40:59.380 may

00:40:59.500 also

00:40:59.760 be

00:41:00.080 that

00:41:00.800 if

00:41:00.980 you're

00:41:01.300 using

00:41:02.300 meditation

00:41:02.840 for

00:41:03.880 some

00:41:04.200 kind

00:41:04.460 of

00:41:04.640 spiritual

00:41:05.120 or

00:41:05.420 self

00:41:05.720 exploration

00:41:06.340 purpose

00:41:07.060 that

00:41:08.400 you

00:41:08.860 may

00:41:09.240 do it

00:41:09.680 for

00:41:09.860 longer

00:41:10.160 periods

00:41:10.680 than

00:41:10.860 other

00:41:11.040 people

00:41:11.320 do

00:41:11.640 or

00:41:12.620 more

00:41:12.840 intensely

00:41:13.620 and

00:41:14.900 this

00:41:16.260 may

00:41:16.580 may

00:41:17.620 indeed

00:41:17.920 be

00:41:18.160 causing

00:41:18.420 something

00:41:18.880 unexpected

00:41:19.400 yeah

00:41:20.600 i think

00:41:20.800 you

00:41:20.900 mentioned

00:41:21.140 one

00:41:21.480 person

00:41:22.140 from

00:41:23.220 the

00:41:23.380 research

00:41:23.760 where

00:41:24.000 they

00:41:24.300 they

00:41:24.940 did

00:41:25.560 mindfulness

00:41:25.920 meditation

00:41:26.500 they

00:41:26.800 got to

00:41:27.300 the point

00:41:27.480 where they

00:41:27.720 kind of

00:41:28.100 lost

00:41:28.420 themselves

00:41:28.840 like

00:41:29.000 they

00:41:29.100 didn't

00:41:29.320 know

00:41:29.640 where

00:41:29.860 they

00:41:30.120 like

00:41:30.780 i don't

00:41:31.020 know

00:41:31.140 they

00:41:31.600 didn't

00:41:32.100 feel

00:41:32.400 good

00:41:32.700 something

00:41:32.860 didn't

00:41:33.220 feel

00:41:33.440 right

00:41:33.720 and

00:41:33.940 as soon

00:41:34.160 as

00:41:34.260 they

00:41:34.360 stopped

00:41:34.640 the

00:41:34.760 meditation

00:41:35.120 that

00:41:36.160 feeling

00:41:36.540 went

00:41:36.940 away

00:41:37.240 yes

00:41:38.980 yes

00:41:39.520 so

00:41:40.080 what

00:41:40.440 what

00:41:40.640 we're

00:41:40.800 trying

00:41:40.980 to

00:41:41.140 tell

00:41:41.420 people

00:41:41.900 that

00:41:42.120 one

00:41:42.320 of

00:41:42.400 the

00:41:42.500 major

00:41:42.720 problems

00:41:43.220 now

00:41:43.500 is

00:41:44.860 that

00:41:45.060 the

00:41:46.220 mindfulness

00:41:46.880 and

00:41:47.320 meditation

00:41:47.720 teachers

00:41:48.260 because

00:41:49.760 they

00:41:49.920 have

00:41:50.060 this

00:41:50.240 very

00:41:50.520 naive

00:41:51.080 positive

00:41:51.540 idea

00:41:51.900 of

00:41:52.040 meditation

00:41:52.520 most

00:41:53.880 of

00:41:54.040 them

00:41:54.260 don't

00:41:54.700 have

00:41:55.040 it

00:41:55.180 in

00:41:55.340 them

00:41:55.540 to

00:41:55.720 tell

00:41:55.920 people

00:41:56.360 to

00:41:57.000 stop

00:41:57.400 meditating

00:41:57.960 when

00:41:58.440 they're

00:41:58.660 feeling

00:41:58.920 something

00:41:59.420 difficult

00:42:01.240 or

00:42:01.500 unpleasant

00:42:01.920 which

00:42:03.000 is

00:42:03.200 what

00:42:03.420 usually

00:42:03.720 they

00:42:03.940 should

00:42:04.120 say

00:42:04.420 well

00:42:05.120 if

00:42:05.240 this

00:42:05.400 isn't

00:42:05.620 working

00:42:05.880 you

00:42:06.040 should

00:42:06.200 stop

00:42:06.560 and

00:42:07.400 we

00:42:08.000 have

00:42:08.180 to

00:42:08.340 see

00:42:08.520 what's

00:42:09.020 happening

00:42:10.160 but

00:42:10.900 then

00:42:11.180 again

00:42:11.520 most

00:42:11.860 of

00:42:11.980 these

00:42:12.120 people

00:42:12.460 don't

00:42:13.940 have

00:42:14.280 any

00:42:14.560 mental

00:42:14.780 health

00:42:15.080 training

00:42:15.460 and

00:42:16.440 they

00:42:16.560 don't

00:42:16.740 have

00:42:17.120 also

00:42:17.620 a

00:42:18.160 very

00:42:19.360 long

00:42:19.700 experience

00:42:20.320 with

00:42:20.560 meditation

00:42:21.100 so

00:42:22.420 it's

00:42:22.860 overall

00:42:23.240 a poor

00:42:23.860 combination

00:42:24.440 right

00:42:25.040 and

00:42:25.180 they're

00:42:25.380 incentivized

00:42:25.940 to keep

00:42:26.300 people

00:42:26.540 meditating

00:42:26.940 as well

00:42:27.480 right

00:42:27.720 because

00:42:27.860 they

00:42:28.040 make

00:42:28.620 money

00:42:28.980 if

00:42:29.400 you

00:42:29.500 keep

00:42:29.660 doing

00:42:29.860 the

00:42:30.020 course

00:42:30.300 or

00:42:30.440 keep

00:42:30.560 going

00:42:30.800 for

00:42:31.020 classes

00:42:31.580 and

00:42:32.140 I

00:42:32.280 think

00:42:32.440 you

00:42:32.540 also

00:42:32.740 mentioned

00:42:32.900 one

00:42:33.060 of

00:42:33.140 the

00:42:33.220 things

00:42:33.380 they

00:42:33.520 say

00:42:33.800 if

00:42:33.980 something

00:42:34.360 negative

00:42:34.780 starts

00:42:35.060 popping

00:42:35.360 up

00:42:35.540 they'll

00:42:35.660 say

00:42:35.740 well

00:42:35.880 that's

00:42:36.200 good

00:42:36.580 it means

00:42:36.960 you're

00:42:37.320 getting

00:42:37.900 to the

00:42:38.180 surface

00:42:38.440 this

00:42:38.860 stuff

00:42:39.620 that's

00:42:39.880 bad

00:42:40.400 and

00:42:40.540 we're

00:42:40.840 going to

00:42:41.040 work

00:42:41.520 through

00:42:41.900 it

00:42:42.220 yeah

00:42:42.980 yeah

00:42:43.940 well

00:42:45.440 I think

00:42:45.800 having a

00:42:46.680 good

00:42:47.180 teacher

00:42:48.040 is

00:42:48.640 really

00:42:49.040 very

00:42:50.060 important

00:42:50.580 because

00:42:53.100 there

00:42:53.700 may be

00:42:54.100 indeed

00:42:54.420 some

00:42:54.720 kind

00:42:55.040 of

00:42:55.220 emotional

00:42:55.780 issues

00:42:56.600 coming

00:42:56.860 up

00:42:57.180 and

00:42:59.220 perhaps

00:42:59.540 the

00:42:59.720 teacher

00:42:59.960 is

00:43:00.140 equipped

00:43:00.480 to

00:43:00.740 help

00:43:00.960 you

00:43:01.100 deal

00:43:01.260 with

00:43:01.420 this

00:43:01.680 but

00:43:03.400 because

00:43:04.360 otherwise

00:43:05.020 and I'm

00:43:05.820 thinking

00:43:06.160 of

00:43:06.680 we

00:43:08.980 mentioned

00:43:09.220 this

00:43:09.440 in the

00:43:09.660 book

00:43:09.900 that

00:43:10.660 Deepak

00:43:12.360 Chopra

00:43:12.700 runs

00:43:12.960 this

00:43:13.320 website

00:43:14.320 and

00:43:14.680 there's

00:43:14.900 lots

00:43:15.100 of

00:43:15.280 people

00:43:15.620 sometimes

00:43:17.140 asking

00:43:17.520 for

00:43:17.720 advice

00:43:18.060 about

00:43:18.360 meditation

00:43:18.820 some

00:43:19.120 of

00:43:19.280 them

00:43:19.440 who

00:43:19.640 have

00:43:19.860 been

00:43:20.180 experiencing

00:43:21.460 something

00:43:22.320 difficult

00:43:22.880 and

00:43:23.900 sometimes

00:43:24.220 he gives

00:43:24.500 really

00:43:24.860 really

00:43:25.400 responsible

00:43:26.060 advice

00:43:26.720 such as

00:43:27.680 someone

00:43:27.940 who was

00:43:28.380 experiencing

00:43:28.940 deep

00:43:29.300 grief

00:43:29.720 while

00:43:29.960 meditating

00:43:30.520 oh

00:43:32.320 just

00:43:32.720 just

00:43:33.420 chant

00:43:33.900 something

00:43:34.400 and it

00:43:34.680 will

00:43:34.840 eventually

00:43:35.260 go

00:43:35.580 away

00:43:35.960 like

00:43:36.720 how

00:43:37.200 does

00:43:37.420 he

00:43:37.600 know

00:43:38.000 how

00:43:38.920 does

00:43:39.080 he

00:43:39.200 know

00:43:39.340 that

00:43:39.480 it

00:43:39.620 will

00:43:39.760 go

00:43:39.940 away

00:43:40.180 without

00:43:40.460 knowing

00:43:41.040 anything

00:43:41.560 about

00:43:41.880 this

00:43:42.040 person

00:43:42.480 it's

00:43:43.140 really

00:43:43.480 really

00:43:43.720 responsible

00:43:44.400 so

00:43:45.500 let's

00:43:45.920 go back

00:43:46.140 to this

00:43:46.340 experiment

00:43:46.720 you did

00:43:47.280 with

00:43:47.840 the

00:43:48.080 prison

00:43:48.480 so

00:43:49.240 there's

00:43:50.160 been

00:43:50.320 meditation

00:43:51.540 practice

00:43:52.040 going on

00:43:52.400 in prison

00:43:52.680 there's

00:43:53.160 all this

00:43:53.400 anecdotal

00:43:53.780 evidence

00:43:54.200 that it's

00:43:54.980 reduced

00:43:55.560 residivism

00:43:56.340 people

00:43:57.060 criminals

00:43:57.980 were less

00:43:58.620 angry

00:43:59.140 etc

00:43:59.480 when you

00:44:00.660 guys

00:44:00.880 went in

00:44:01.140 there

00:44:01.280 and looked

00:44:01.580 at the

00:44:01.920 research

00:44:02.380 did a

00:44:02.660 study

00:44:02.880 what did

00:44:03.280 you find

00:44:03.620 did meditation

00:44:04.620 change

00:44:05.260 these

00:44:05.680 prisoners

00:44:06.580 well

00:44:07.620 it really

00:44:09.020 it really

00:44:09.420 looks at

00:44:09.780 how you're

00:44:10.580 depends on

00:44:11.840 how you're

00:44:12.100 looking at

00:44:12.520 it

00:44:12.760 many things

00:44:14.100 changes

00:44:14.740 we were

00:44:16.800 particularly

00:44:17.460 interested in

00:44:18.140 looking at

00:44:18.720 changes in

00:44:20.220 emotions

00:44:21.300 if these

00:44:21.880 people had

00:44:22.400 more positive

00:44:23.020 emotions

00:44:23.540 less negative

00:44:24.240 emotions

00:44:24.760 if they were

00:44:26.220 less anxious

00:44:27.240 if they were

00:44:29.200 less aggressive

00:44:30.440 also if they

00:44:32.440 had a better

00:44:33.140 focus

00:44:34.000 and an

00:44:35.480 ability to

00:44:36.100 withhold

00:44:36.580 their

00:44:37.160 impulses

00:44:37.820 which we

00:44:38.200 know is

00:44:38.460 associated

00:44:38.980 with

00:44:39.220 criminality

00:44:39.900 and

00:44:41.400 the answer

00:44:43.200 is

00:44:43.720 I mean

00:44:45.520 it's

00:44:46.220 sort of

00:44:46.760 greyish

00:44:47.500 in the

00:44:48.220 sense that

00:44:48.700 we got

00:44:49.600 some of

00:44:49.920 the positive

00:44:50.320 results

00:44:50.860 that we

00:44:51.660 were

00:44:51.840 expecting

00:44:52.340 people felt

00:44:53.740 better

00:44:54.200 they had

00:44:55.620 higher

00:44:56.120 scores on

00:44:57.160 positive

00:44:57.500 effect

00:44:57.940 but they

00:44:59.400 didn't really

00:44:59.900 reduce their

00:45:00.540 negative

00:45:00.860 effect

00:45:01.380 they had

00:45:02.400 lower

00:45:03.360 stress

00:45:03.900 and anxiety

00:45:04.520 but they

00:45:05.340 didn't really

00:45:05.760 have lower

00:45:06.620 aggression

00:45:07.200 and there

00:45:08.280 were some

00:45:08.600 indications

00:45:09.340 that they

00:45:11.520 were able

00:45:12.260 to withhold

00:45:13.000 their impulses

00:45:13.840 a little bit

00:45:14.420 better

00:45:14.740 but again

00:45:15.700 it was

00:45:16.200 this one

00:45:17.540 was a weak

00:45:18.300 result

00:45:18.700 if indeed

00:45:20.320 meditation and

00:45:21.540 yoga could do

00:45:22.120 that that would

00:45:22.680 be something

00:45:23.320 quite important

00:45:24.720 but if you

00:45:26.620 look at the

00:45:26.980 larger literature

00:45:27.760 even on

00:45:28.440 the facts

00:45:29.480 on meditation

00:45:30.360 on attention

00:45:31.080 it's very

00:45:32.280 very mixed

00:45:32.900 the results

00:45:33.460 aren't that

00:45:34.000 great

00:45:34.380 so it

00:45:34.800 sounds like

00:45:35.040 it made

00:45:35.200 the prisoners

00:45:35.620 feel better

00:45:36.420 but not

00:45:37.200 necessarily

00:45:37.560 act better

00:45:38.240 yeah

00:45:38.900 and that's

00:45:40.420 a really

00:45:40.800 really big

00:45:41.340 thing in

00:45:42.140 psychology

00:45:43.260 I mean

00:45:44.500 getting

00:45:44.820 kind of

00:45:45.560 some

00:45:46.680 psychological

00:45:47.280 good effects

00:45:48.220 I mean

00:45:49.420 you can

00:45:49.740 invariably

00:45:50.520 get something

00:45:51.280 but get

00:45:52.720 people to

00:45:53.220 behave in a

00:45:53.980 different way

00:45:54.480 that solo

00:45:55.320 is much

00:45:55.660 more difficult

00:45:56.260 right

00:45:57.120 because

00:45:57.400 there's a lot

00:45:58.540 involved there

00:45:59.220 there's context

00:45:59.900 environment

00:46:00.460 plays a huge

00:46:01.180 role in

00:46:01.780 how you

00:46:02.080 behave

00:46:02.340 or not

00:46:02.660 yeah

00:46:02.860 exactly

00:46:03.360 so I mean

00:46:04.620 Miguel

00:46:04.860 after doing

00:46:05.580 all this

00:46:05.840 research on

00:46:06.420 meditation

00:46:06.800 what's your

00:46:07.520 final take

00:46:08.420 on it

00:46:08.700 should people

00:46:09.820 run out

00:46:10.660 and start

00:46:11.000 meditating

00:46:11.500 or should

00:46:12.720 people feel

00:46:13.140 guilty if they

00:46:13.760 don't meditate

00:46:14.400 who should

00:46:15.000 meditate

00:46:15.520 what's your

00:46:17.300 take

00:46:17.640 so one

00:46:19.520 thing that

00:46:19.960 we're still

00:46:20.580 trying to

00:46:21.060 work out

00:46:21.580 is for

00:46:22.860 whom

00:46:23.100 meditation

00:46:23.680 works

00:46:24.100 better

00:46:24.540 and

00:46:25.280 worse

00:46:26.680 once we

00:46:28.340 know something

00:46:28.720 more about

00:46:29.280 that

00:46:29.680 we'd be

00:46:30.880 able to

00:46:31.220 give a

00:46:31.680 much

00:46:32.000 better

00:46:32.280 answer

00:46:32.680 to

00:46:33.020 who

00:46:33.780 should

00:46:34.000 be

00:46:34.140 doing

00:46:34.380 this

00:46:34.720 to whom

00:46:35.380 will it

00:46:35.960 really

00:46:36.260 help

00:46:37.760 I think

00:46:39.840 what's

00:46:40.700 really

00:46:41.100 what keeps

00:46:42.200 me doing

00:46:42.580 things on

00:46:43.000 meditation

00:46:43.520 is that

00:46:45.220 it's

00:46:45.820 fascinating

00:46:46.440 the way

00:46:47.600 it's become

00:46:48.000 not just a

00:46:48.580 psychological

00:46:49.120 or health

00:46:49.920 issue

00:46:50.300 it's really

00:46:51.320 societal

00:46:51.960 issue

00:46:52.620 why have

00:46:54.000 we become

00:46:54.340 so interested

00:46:55.000 in an

00:46:55.480 inwards

00:46:56.060 technique

00:46:56.940 are we

00:46:58.200 using this

00:46:59.000 in the

00:46:59.800 best

00:47:00.120 way

00:47:00.440 I think

00:47:01.360 it's

00:47:01.600 somehow

00:47:01.940 tapping

00:47:02.520 into

00:47:04.060 into

00:47:05.500 something

00:47:05.840 good

00:47:06.240 it's

00:47:06.620 tapping

00:47:07.160 into

00:47:08.400 a kind

00:47:09.400 of

00:47:09.660 idealism

00:47:10.580 or romanticism

00:47:11.580 that we

00:47:11.960 still hold

00:47:12.520 despite

00:47:12.940 everything

00:47:14.660 happening

00:47:15.880 around us

00:47:16.480 that isn't

00:47:17.240 so great

00:47:17.820 so it's

00:47:19.280 still tapping

00:47:19.880 into that

00:47:20.920 resource of

00:47:22.580 goodness

00:47:22.900 and hope

00:47:23.780 in us

00:47:25.020 and I think

00:47:25.400 that's really

00:47:25.960 really valuable

00:47:26.660 the thing

00:47:28.400 is

00:47:28.820 we know

00:47:29.780 that

00:47:30.000 meditation

00:47:30.640 has an

00:47:31.080 inwards

00:47:31.700 or reflecting

00:47:33.400 technique

00:47:33.900 it is

00:47:34.580 inevitably

00:47:35.100 limited

00:47:35.640 so what

00:47:37.980 is it

00:47:38.420 that we

00:47:39.160 need

00:47:39.880 to do

00:47:40.640 to make

00:47:41.320 it more

00:47:42.040 effective

00:47:42.520 so for

00:47:43.480 instance

00:47:43.800 now in

00:47:44.400 the UK

00:47:44.720 I think

00:47:45.100 it's the

00:47:45.360 same in

00:47:45.640 the US

00:47:45.960 lots of

00:47:47.360 people trying

00:47:47.860 to get

00:47:49.440 meditation

00:47:50.060 programs

00:47:50.840 in schools

00:47:51.680 with children

00:47:52.460 of various

00:47:53.120 ages

00:47:53.500 as early

00:47:54.540 as six

00:47:55.320 and again

00:47:57.880 this is

00:47:58.280 being driven

00:47:58.740 by a good

00:48:00.440 idea

00:48:00.840 by the hope

00:48:01.420 that this

00:48:01.880 will allow

00:48:02.920 children to

00:48:03.580 deal better

00:48:04.000 with anxiety

00:48:04.700 depression

00:48:05.280 to make

00:48:06.020 them more

00:48:06.560 resilient

00:48:07.280 but I think

00:48:09.460 it's stopping

00:48:09.980 short

00:48:10.580 we should be

00:48:11.640 asking

00:48:11.980 how can

00:48:14.400 this allow

00:48:15.460 us to

00:48:15.860 really pause

00:48:16.920 for a second

00:48:17.520 and think

00:48:18.060 better

00:48:18.500 about how

00:48:20.320 we're

00:48:20.700 educating

00:48:21.500 these kids

00:48:22.660 what is

00:48:23.700 it that

00:48:24.140 they need

00:48:25.060 that we're

00:48:25.640 not giving

00:48:26.300 them

00:48:26.600 so the

00:48:27.700 whole idea

00:48:28.220 about

00:48:28.700 mindfulness

00:48:29.120 in particular

00:48:29.700 is that

00:48:30.020 it just

00:48:30.800 allows us

00:48:31.680 to stop

00:48:32.740 and we do

00:48:33.320 need to

00:48:33.640 stop

00:48:33.960 because the

00:48:34.780 way things

00:48:35.260 are just

00:48:35.720 ridiculous

00:48:36.280 and unhealthy

00:48:37.020 right

00:48:37.760 so I wish

00:48:39.000 that meditation

00:48:39.620 could be

00:48:40.100 used

00:48:40.440 to give

00:48:41.360 us

00:48:41.700 a

00:48:42.660 proper

00:48:44.020 way of

00:48:45.080 pausing

00:48:45.480 and reflecting

00:48:46.340 deeper

00:48:46.680 right now

00:48:47.140 it's not

00:48:47.660 leading to

00:48:48.080 any

00:48:48.320 deeper

00:48:49.020 reflection

00:48:49.520 in most

00:48:50.140 cases

00:48:50.620 and if

00:48:52.680 we get

00:48:53.140 to that

00:48:53.800 deeper

00:48:54.140 level

00:48:54.580 it

00:48:54.920 then

00:48:55.620 leads us

00:48:56.720 to the

00:48:56.940 next

00:48:57.200 stage

00:48:57.560 which is

00:48:57.960 actually

00:48:58.880 we can

00:48:59.300 think about

00:48:59.860 doing things

00:49:00.320 differently

00:49:00.720 and we do

00:49:01.480 need other

00:49:01.900 people

00:49:02.320 right

00:49:03.460 if we want

00:49:04.200 to do

00:49:04.560 things

00:49:04.800 differently

00:49:05.140 and for

00:49:05.560 this to

00:49:05.940 work

00:49:06.240 at the

00:49:07.160 level

00:49:07.360 that extends

00:49:07.960 beyond

00:49:08.220 myself

00:49:08.760 so in

00:49:10.380 that sense

00:49:10.800 I think

00:49:11.040 there is

00:49:11.360 something

00:49:11.600 potentially

00:49:12.080 good

00:49:12.460 about

00:49:13.240 meditation

00:49:14.440 but

00:49:15.560 within

00:49:16.980 that possibility

00:49:17.700 of stopping

00:49:18.280 and making

00:49:18.780 a thing

00:49:19.320 I think

00:49:20.460 psychologists

00:49:22.100 are

00:49:22.700 in a way

00:49:24.080 not helping

00:49:24.680 this

00:49:25.020 because of

00:49:26.180 all the

00:49:26.560 focus

00:49:27.000 on the

00:49:27.660 mental

00:49:27.920 health

00:49:28.380 issues

00:49:29.120 that

00:49:29.320 this

00:49:29.520 helps

00:49:29.800 with

00:49:29.980 this

00:49:30.200 this

00:49:30.400 helps

00:49:30.640 with

00:49:30.780 that

00:49:31.020 no

00:49:32.280 it

00:49:32.680 will

00:49:32.820 help

00:49:33.000 very

00:49:33.240 little

00:49:33.500 most

00:49:33.780 people

00:49:34.120 I think

00:49:35.420 the best

00:49:35.820 thing

00:49:36.000 coming out

00:49:36.400 of it

00:49:36.580 is the

00:49:36.800 possibility

00:49:37.200 to

00:49:37.500 stop

00:49:37.900 and allow

00:49:38.360 us

00:49:38.580 to

00:49:38.720 rethink

00:49:39.320 lots

00:49:41.060 of

00:49:41.240 stuff

00:49:41.540 that is

00:49:41.900 happening

00:49:42.200 within

00:49:42.440 us

00:49:42.760 in our

00:49:43.480 lives

00:49:43.700 and around

00:49:44.020 us

00:49:44.200 which

00:49:44.480 really

00:49:45.920 needs

00:49:46.300 to be

00:49:47.020 rethought

00:49:47.420 carefully

00:49:47.880 and to

00:49:48.580 be changed

00:49:49.140 so I wish

00:49:50.140 that we

00:49:50.540 can use

00:49:50.860 meditation

00:49:51.300 more

00:49:51.580 in that

00:49:51.920 wider

00:49:53.100 context

00:49:53.720 and not

00:49:54.100 just

00:49:54.380 looking

00:49:54.980 within

00:49:55.540 so it

00:49:56.200 sounds like

00:49:56.660 meditation

00:49:57.240 isn't an

00:49:57.720 end

00:49:58.060 it's not

00:49:58.580 a solution

00:49:59.080 to the

00:49:59.500 problems

00:49:59.900 it's a

00:50:00.860 way for

00:50:01.420 us to

00:50:01.840 pause

00:50:02.360 a bit

00:50:02.760 so we

00:50:03.360 can think

00:50:03.820 about

00:50:04.060 solutions

00:50:04.440 to the

00:50:04.720 problems

00:50:05.160 you mentioned

00:50:06.200 the school

00:50:06.580 kids

00:50:06.860 I've read

00:50:07.400 that too

00:50:07.860 where

00:50:08.140 they're

00:50:08.780 really

00:50:08.980 doing

00:50:09.220 this

00:50:09.440 in

00:50:09.640 inner

00:50:10.000 city

00:50:10.260 schools

00:50:10.720 where

00:50:11.140 kids

00:50:11.740 are

00:50:12.040 facing

00:50:12.340 a lot

00:50:12.620 of

00:50:12.740 stress

00:50:13.060 at home

00:50:13.480 etc

00:50:13.760 and

00:50:14.640 it's

00:50:14.820 like

00:50:14.940 instead

00:50:15.220 of

00:50:15.720 solving

00:50:16.360 the

00:50:16.540 problems

00:50:17.020 eliminating

00:50:17.840 that

00:50:18.100 stress

00:50:18.640 we'll

00:50:19.260 just

00:50:19.440 make

00:50:19.620 the

00:50:19.760 kids

00:50:19.900 more

00:50:20.060 mindful

00:50:20.460 and

00:50:21.420 it's

00:50:21.540 like

00:50:21.660 well

00:50:21.900 you did

00:50:22.640 that

00:50:22.860 but

00:50:23.060 things

00:50:23.600 are

00:50:24.920 still

00:50:25.080 bad

00:50:25.500 so maybe

00:50:27.420 meditation

00:50:27.900 can be

00:50:28.300 like

00:50:28.560 stop

00:50:29.380 pause

00:50:29.780 a moment

00:50:30.080 that'll

00:50:30.700 allow

00:50:30.840 us

00:50:31.020 to

00:50:31.140 solve

00:50:31.500 those

00:50:31.780 larger

00:50:32.520 problems

00:50:33.080 yeah

00:50:33.900 I saw

00:50:35.720 this

00:50:36.040 this was

00:50:37.580 exactly

00:50:37.960 what happened

00:50:38.480 during

00:50:38.820 the 60s

00:50:39.640 there were

00:50:39.860 lots of

00:50:40.360 interesting

00:50:40.840 ideas

00:50:41.280 going on

00:50:41.860 but it

00:50:43.220 was so

00:50:43.600 individualistic

00:50:44.360 at that

00:50:44.720 stage

00:50:45.240 that

00:50:45.600 people

00:50:45.900 were

00:50:46.080 unable

00:50:46.440 to

00:50:46.700 get

00:50:46.860 together

00:50:47.280 and

00:50:47.660 make

00:50:48.120 this

00:50:48.380 ferment

00:50:48.780 work

00:50:50.180 as a

00:50:50.680 whole

00:50:50.900 as a

00:50:51.540 societal

00:50:51.980 whole

00:50:52.580 and

00:50:53.740 the

00:50:54.220 way

00:50:54.500 things

00:50:54.900 are

00:50:55.080 being

00:50:55.420 organized

00:50:57.780 or

00:50:58.180 disorganized

00:50:59.060 with

00:50:59.260 mindfulness

00:50:59.660 it's

00:51:00.720 again

00:51:00.960 they're

00:51:01.480 looking at

00:51:01.840 it

00:51:01.960 in a

00:51:02.300 microwave

00:51:02.760 so in

00:51:04.300 a way

00:51:04.460 they're

00:51:04.800 throwing

00:51:05.200 the

00:51:05.400 baby

00:51:05.580 out

00:51:05.800 with

00:51:06.180 the

00:51:06.700 water

00:51:06.900 there's

00:51:07.140 something

00:51:07.360 potentially

00:51:07.760 good

00:51:08.040 about

00:51:08.300 this

00:51:08.500 but the

00:51:08.820 way

00:51:08.980 we're

00:51:09.200 using

00:51:09.520 it

00:51:09.740 is

00:51:09.900 just

00:51:10.080 not

00:51:10.320 going

00:51:10.520 to

00:51:10.640 bring

00:51:10.820 about

00:51:11.860 other

00:51:12.180 than

00:51:12.380 disappointment

00:51:12.920 and

00:51:13.960 this

00:51:14.460 then

00:51:14.920 leads

00:51:15.240 me

00:51:15.380 to

00:51:15.520 think

00:51:15.720 well

00:51:16.420 after

00:51:16.820 this

00:51:17.240 what

00:51:17.520 will

00:51:17.700 happen

00:51:17.960 what

00:51:18.180 will

00:51:18.360 come

00:51:18.580 next

00:51:19.000 what

00:51:20.040 will

00:51:20.320 we

00:51:21.060 attach

00:51:22.360 our

00:51:22.680 hopes

00:51:23.020 to

00:51:23.320 when

00:51:23.920 we

00:51:24.100 realize

00:51:24.500 that

00:51:24.840 meditation

00:51:25.520 isn't

00:51:25.880 going

00:51:26.100 to

00:51:26.360 help

00:51:26.820 us

00:51:27.100 so

00:51:27.760 bottom

00:51:28.420 line

00:51:28.720 if you

00:51:29.800 want to

00:51:30.100 give

00:51:30.240 meditation

00:51:30.660 a try

00:51:30.940 it can

00:51:31.120 be

00:51:31.260 useful

00:51:31.640 but

00:51:32.080 it's

00:51:32.200 only

00:51:32.340 a

00:51:32.520 tool

00:51:32.780 it's

00:51:32.980 not

00:51:33.120 going

00:51:33.240 to

00:51:33.660 be

00:51:33.960 the

00:51:34.120 solution

00:51:34.360 to

00:51:34.480 your

00:51:34.500 problems

00:51:34.720 if

00:51:34.880 you

00:51:35.020 don't

00:51:35.380 meditate

00:51:35.700 it

00:51:36.000 sounds

00:51:36.260 like

00:51:36.540 it's

00:51:41.860 right

00:51:43.040 so

00:51:43.400 I think

00:51:43.540 there's

00:51:44.020 a lot

00:51:44.200 of

00:51:44.320 guilt

00:51:44.440 like

00:51:44.560 well

00:51:44.660 you

00:51:44.720 don't

00:51:44.860 mindful

00:51:45.160 meditate

00:51:45.480 you

00:51:45.700 shouldn't

00:51:46.900 feel

00:51:47.060 that

00:51:47.220 well

00:51:48.080 Miguel

00:51:48.460 is there

00:51:48.680 some

00:51:48.820 place

00:51:48.980 people can

00:51:49.280 go to

00:51:49.500 learn

00:51:49.640 more

00:51:49.860 about

00:51:50.160 your

00:51:50.480 work

00:51:50.800 yeah

00:51:52.280 so

00:51:52.500 I

00:51:52.660 have

00:51:52.940 I

00:51:53.420 have

00:51:53.620 a

00:51:53.760 website

00:51:54.240 we

00:51:55.720 have

00:51:55.900 a

00:51:56.060 Facebook

00:51:56.460 page

00:51:57.140 for

00:51:57.540 the

00:51:57.780 Buddha

00:51:57.960 pill

00:51:58.300 as

00:51:59.340 well

00:51:59.640 there's

00:52:00.480 a

00:52:00.600 new

00:52:00.760 edition

00:52:01.160 coming

00:52:01.620 out

00:52:02.040 with

00:52:02.600 some

00:52:02.780 updated

00:52:03.160 material

00:52:03.780 and

00:52:05.120 there's

00:52:06.540 there's

00:52:06.900 a

00:52:06.980 number

00:52:07.160 of

00:52:07.540 programs

00:52:09.080 even

00:52:09.420 a

00:52:09.580 BBC

00:52:09.880 radio

00:52:10.260 four

00:52:10.660 documentary

00:52:12.340 called

00:52:13.080 Mindfulness

00:52:13.940 and

00:52:14.220 Madness

00:52:14.760 which

00:52:15.320 may be

00:52:15.720 interesting

00:52:16.020 for

00:52:16.240 those

00:52:16.520 that

00:52:16.680 are

00:52:16.920 looking

00:52:18.000 at

00:52:18.260 the

00:52:18.400 adverse

00:52:18.700 events

00:52:19.180 of

00:52:19.580 meditation

00:52:20.120 yeah

00:52:21.620 have

00:52:21.960 a

00:52:22.060 look

00:52:22.140 at

00:52:22.260 my

00:52:22.400 website

00:52:22.700 there's

00:52:23.280 there's

00:52:23.560 a

00:52:23.620 number

00:52:23.820 of

00:52:24.200 things

00:52:24.760 out

00:52:25.000 there

00:52:25.300 well

00:52:25.820 Miguel

00:52:26.020 thanks

00:52:26.280 so much

00:52:26.500 for your

00:52:26.640 time

00:52:26.800 it's

00:52:26.900 been

00:52:27.000 a

00:52:27.100 pleasure

00:52:27.340 thank

00:52:27.920 you

00:52:28.020 so

00:52:28.160 much

00:52:28.380 Brett

00:52:28.660 my

00:52:29.080 guest

00:52:29.300 here

00:52:29.400 was

00:52:29.500 Miguel

00:52:29.760 Farias

00:52:30.180 he

00:52:30.460 is

00:52:30.640 the

00:52:30.800 co-author

00:52:31.220 of

00:52:31.380 the

00:52:31.480 book

00:52:31.660 The

00:52:31.880 Buddha

00:52:32.120 pill

00:52:32.360 it's

00:52:32.560 available

00:52:32.820 on

00:52:33.000 amazon.com

00:52:33.880 you can

00:52:34.100 also

00:52:34.340 find

00:52:34.700 out

00:52:34.820 more

00:52:34.940 information

00:52:35.220 about

00:52:35.400 his

00:52:35.580 work

00:52:35.900 at

00:52:36.120 miguel

00:52:36.480 farias

00:52:37.000 dot

00:52:37.360 co

00:52:37.840 dot

00:52:38.460 uk

00:52:38.820 also

00:52:39.360 check

00:52:39.620 out

00:52:39.720 our

00:52:39.820 show

00:52:39.980 notes

00:52:40.140 at

00:52:40.280 aom

00:52:40.620 dot

00:52:40.860 is

00:52:41.240 slash

00:52:41.540 buddha

00:52:41.900 pill

00:52:42.100 where you can find links to resources

00:52:43.380 where you can delve deeper into this topic

00:52:44.860 well that wraps up another edition of the art of manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice make sure to check out the art of manliness website at artofmanliness.com and if you enjoy the show you've got something out of it please give us a review on itunes or stitcher it helps out a lot and if you've done that already thank you please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you think would get something out of it as always thank you for the art of manliness

00:53:14.840 support until next time this is brett mckay telling you to stay manly

The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

#468： Does Meditation Deserve the Hype？

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