The Art of Manliness - #472： Reagan, the Man

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast like FDR or JFK

00:00:20.080 Ronald Reagan has become more of a symbol for many Americans than a flesh and blood person

00:00:24.420 for some he's the embodiment of all that's good in America while for others he's the very opposite

00:00:28.840 but beyond the political divides who was Reagan the man my guest today spent five years researching

00:00:34.900 and writing an epic non-partisan biography that seeks to bring the abstraction of Reagan back down

00:00:39.700 to earth his name is Bob Spitz and his biography is Reagan an American Journey we begin our conversation

00:00:44.280 discussing how Reagan's hardscrabble childhood in the Midwest and his family's staunch progressive

00:00:48.620 politics influenced his early political outlook Bob then shares how a young Ronald Reagan showed

00:00:53.180 signs of becoming the great communicator as a young man how his charm and innate talent for speaking

00:00:57.840 led to a successful career in radio and the movies we then discussed why Reagan went from being a

00:01:02.340 true believing democratic new dealer to being a leader in the burgeoning conservative movement in

00:01:06.440 the 1960s Bob then delves into Reagan's leadership style as governor of California and president of

00:01:10.940 the United States and the important role Nancy Reagan played throughout his political career

00:01:14.620 in our conversation discussing Reagan's ultimate legacy after the show's over check out the show notes

00:01:19.460 bob spitz welcome to the show my pleasure great to be here so you've got an interesting career you

00:01:40.640 you've been in the music industry you've represented the partridge family Bruce Springsteen Elton John then

00:01:46.360 you parlayed that to a writing career where you've written biographies about the Beatles history of

00:01:50.800 Woodstock but now you've got this tome of a biography about President Ronald Reagan so how did you go from

00:01:57.580 writing about I don't know pop culture music to President Reagan well it wasn't just music in between the

00:02:04.740 Beatles and Reagan I was Julia Child's biographer and and so when it came time to look for a new subject

00:02:12.280 after I was Julia's biographer I thought that you could draw a straight line through the Beatles and

00:02:18.560 Julia through two elements that each of them had and that was number one they were beloved and number

00:02:25.600 two they had changed the culture so I was looking to uh to to find a subject who who embraced both of

00:02:35.540 those qualities and the list was incredibly small I mean I had thought for six months and gone through

00:02:43.020 uh all the Kennedy Center nominees the Medal of Honor winners and people who embraced both qualities

00:02:49.720 both elements were far and few and my wife said to me what about Ronald Reagan and I uh I took a big

00:02:58.360 swallow and thought I can't do this I'm a lifelong Democrat I never voted for a Republican in my life

00:03:04.940 how was I I didn't vote for Reagan twice how was I going to write a biography of Ronald Reagan but he

00:03:12.060 he embodied both of those qualities I mean I was so intrigued by the fact that so many people in this

00:03:18.200 country considered him a beloved individual whether or not they agreed with his policies I mean he's

00:03:24.160 cited by Barack Obama and Bill Clinton as as a beacon almost all the time and he he certainly changed the

00:03:32.120 culture and and so I thought I'm going to look into this a little more and what I did I found a

00:03:37.060 subject who led one of the most remarkable lives that I had ever encountered and was so rich for a

00:03:45.200 biography and I couldn't resist okay so you know besides you know you you said you're a lifelong

00:03:51.640 Democrat like you never thought you'd write about Ronald Reagan who'd be someone this icon of uh the

00:03:56.240 Republican Party but besides that I mean Ronald Reagan I mean he's more symbol than man almost

00:04:02.860 right I mean was that was that part sort of trepidation for you about this project like how do

00:04:07.840 you you get to the like to the actual person Ronald Reagan yeah well he had you know he had grown into

00:04:12.900 myth and uh that's always difficult for a biographer to penetrate I have the same thing with with the

00:04:20.040 Beatles when I uh became their biographer you just have to do the the legwork I mean it's it's it took

00:04:27.300 me two and a half years of talking to 350 people and and visiting all the places where Reagan grew up and

00:04:34.960 going through all of his personal files until a picture of a personality emerges that you know to be

00:04:41.940 true and that happens with almost any biography that that anyone encounters if you do the legwork

00:04:49.360 soon enough you can peel off the uh the armor and get to the inner core of the person and that's what

00:04:55.840 I was striving to do through all my work so let's talk about Reagan's childhood and youth how did his

00:05:01.420 upbringing late you know influence his later political career yeah well that's it's a good

00:05:05.920 question he Ronald Reagan had one of the most humble backgrounds I'd ever encountered his father was

00:05:12.260 a reckless alcoholic his mom was a pious religious person they always they they often had to move under 0.72

00:05:19.060 the cover of night when the rent came due Reagan and his brother often had to share just a single bed

00:05:25.840 so you know he what he did was he he he kind of receded into his own little life world and blocked out

00:05:35.760 everybody else around him this allowed him to to really you know help a fantasy life he read a lot

00:05:43.040 he always reached for the stars and and this is a man again who came from a humble background but wound up

00:05:50.720 being not just the voice of the Midwest on the radio but a Hollywood movie star the governor of California

00:05:57.780 and the president of the United States and I think a lot of it had to do with him protecting himself from

00:06:03.400 from his surroundings as a young kid he also went to a college that was well beyond his means he was

00:06:12.640 basically a C and a D student and relied on his charm and his personality and developed that and I think you

00:06:19.920 know he had he had a strong religious background from his mom he had a core set of principles that he

00:06:27.020 always held dear to himself and and he traded on all of that to uh to become the man he did

00:06:34.080 and what's interesting too about his childhood you talk a lot about too you know his dad was a diehard

00:06:38.680 democrat and his mom you know he said he was pious but she was a part of a church that was a part of the

00:06:43.260 social gospel movement where they kind of became the progressive movement exactly right and Reagan grew

00:06:48.420 up as as a democrat as a progressive liberal who idolized Franklin D Roosevelt and what he idolized most of

00:06:55.980 all was Roosevelt's social embodiments he he loved the fact that uh Roosevelt uh honored the working man

00:07:04.080 loved unions he he hated the oil barons and and and the bankers and and that he uh gave money for

00:07:17.000 to welfare for people and so Reagan you know had had a lot of that background in him that he did get from

00:07:24.860 his parents and it was all kind of a liberal a liberal uh ethic well I mean so Reagan became known

00:07:30.800 as the great communicator that's his nickname I mean were there signs of that as a child or a young

00:07:34.920 man that he had this ability to connect with an audience and and just really say the right thing at

00:07:39.500 the right time yeah he really learned that in college you know he got called on as a freshman to

00:07:45.120 lead a student protest that basically shut down the university and it was right at that moment that he

00:07:51.300 developed his voice I mean he really felt that he could stand up in front of a crowd and sway them

00:07:56.660 with his with his rhetoric and that was something he traded on again and again you know he did the

00:08:02.300 same thing after college as a as a radio personality he really learned how to use that voice and to

00:08:08.680 communicate and how did so yeah so you did he graduate college did he finish he did finish college yeah he did

00:08:15.220 four years of college uh eat through just barely eat through and and decided that he he wanted something

00:08:22.980 greater in life and he had to leave the small town that he was brought up in Dixon Illinois and and move

00:08:30.720 further west and so he wound up in in Iowa in Davenport behind a radio microphone and how did that happen

00:08:38.320 did it was that sort of accident or was he very persistent like he knew that's what he wanted to do and

00:08:42.040 he just put it he hit the pavement with resumes and just like can I get a job yeah no it was it was

00:08:47.800 sheer fortitude and sheer dreaming he decided he wanted to be a radio broadcaster a sports broadcaster

00:08:54.280 so he got in the car with his resume and you know he he went straight to Chicago you know right to the

00:09:00.700 top and and basically the woman who was at the reception desk at uh and at the NBC affiliate there

00:09:07.200 said look you know you're going about this all the wrong way it's like baseball you start in the

00:09:12.760 minor leagues so find a small country station get a job get your foot in the door there and and see if

00:09:20.520 you can uh you know begin your career that way and so he did he found a small station in Davenport he

00:09:26.720 wedged himself in the door and before he knew it he had wedged the rest of himself in his well and

00:09:32.880 and he was off and running uh to a great career that if it had only stopped in radio he would have

00:09:40.200 had a a very very successful career right and I imagine calling sports games that's what he became

00:09:46.500 known for that he learned how to communicate and improvise on the fly right he did he actually

00:09:53.820 broadcast the games the Cubs and the White Sox games every night to as wide an audience as eight

00:10:00.500 different states without ever having seen one of those games he got all the information on what

00:10:08.560 was going on on the field through teletype dispatches that he would then have to translate

00:10:14.180 and then broadcast as if he were you were listening to it as a live game and so he had to be incredibly

00:10:21.120 creative absolutely dramatic and and really know how to put something like that across and I think you

00:10:28.560 mentioned one moment like the tell one game like the teletype machine stopped working so he had to

00:10:33.680 just pretty much make something up for like half an hour he had the guy fouling off ball after ball

00:10:40.180 he kept watching the teletype machine to see if it would come back on he'd have the manager go out to

00:10:46.040 the pitching mound to talk to the pitcher then there were more foul balls and finally when it came back

00:10:53.100 one Reagan found out that the guy had fouled out on the first pitch so he and at this time I think

00:11:00.100 another important thing this he wasn't Ronald Reagan he was known as Dutch Reagan that's how he

00:11:03.920 introduced himself and he was known professionally on radio for a while correct yeah absolutely he had

00:11:09.060 only ever been called Dutch as a kid in high school and college and that's what his listening audience

00:11:15.320 knew him as to never ever called him himself Ronald nor did his parents call himself Ronald

00:11:23.100 let's talk about when he became Ronald Reagan so we all know Ronald Reagan's like the one president

00:11:28.380 that was a movie star before he became president how did that happen because he's this guy he's in

00:11:33.460 radio how did he get in front of the silver screen you know he he accompanied the cubs out to a spring

00:11:39.160 training they were training on Catalina Island off the coast of Los Angeles and he knew a young woman

00:11:47.600 from Iowa named Joy Hodges who was singing with big bands in LA and had dinner with her and she said

00:11:54.140 you know you ought to uh you ought to try out at Warner Brothers you ought to try out for a screen test in

00:11:59.060 the movies you have what it takes except for those glasses you're wearing and she took the glasses off

00:12:04.560 him and said don't ever put them on again and right there he at that dinner he said okay call your

00:12:11.540 agent see if you can get me a screen test he had a screen test two days later and about four days

00:12:17.840 later as he was heading back to uh Dick to Davenport with the the cubs he got a telegram that Warner

00:12:26.120 Brothers wanted to sign him to a contract and and that was the beginning of the beginning so it was

00:12:31.480 sort of like something kind of tumbled you know stumbled into accidentally was this like I mean did he

00:12:34.820 have a goal like he thought maybe one day I could do movies because he acted as a child he did he acted

00:12:39.400 as a child and he acted in college and in fact he was in a competition at Northwestern University

00:12:45.560 and won and and one of the uh the drama coaches there said you know you'd have a really good future

00:12:52.640 on the stage so Reagan was always thinking there might be something bigger than you know just being

00:12:58.580 behind a microphone so you know he he was eager he had that at the back of his mind and I think when

00:13:06.000 he had dinner with joy Hodges that night he had his eye on Hollywood so Reagan started in movies but

00:13:12.380 he was never became like a leading man he was always in these b movies what kept him from you know

00:13:18.000 becoming a star because it seems like the way you describe like that's what he wanted so bad and he

00:13:21.760 was always like in his grasp but like just a little out of reach well what kept him from being a movie star

00:13:27.980 was lack of talent you know he he was kind of wooden he was charming he had that you know that look that

00:13:36.620 um best friends have um in in the movies but he he had no depth as an actor and that always kept him

00:13:46.360 from getting the roles that he coveted I mean you know he he worked next to Errol Flynn and Olivia

00:13:52.640 David Havilland and Betty Davis and some of the bigger Bill Holden who was his buddy some of the

00:13:58.380 bigger stars but he he didn't have what they had and and I think Jack Warner knew that he had two

00:14:04.940 opportunities in King's Row and in Newt Rockne All-American and you know he was serviceable but not star

00:14:13.740 quality so uh but one thing that came out of the movie business is that he became president of the

00:14:19.660 Screen Actors Guild what was his stint there like and how did that spark you know did it cause a spark

00:14:25.640 for his political career later on well his stint there was brilliant I mean he didn't he wasn't just

00:14:30.640 the president of the Screen Actors Guild for one term he won for six terms running and he did that

00:14:37.020 because he had a real way of communicating with the actors who he represented and he had an incredible

00:14:46.140 sense of politics he knew how to play them Ronald Reagan was a political animal not just around his

00:14:53.900 dad when they talked politics but in college and especially in Hollywood on the set uh when when

00:15:01.960 they broke between each scene Reagan was an incredible chatterbox I I have the distinct pleasure of

00:15:10.360 going to Paris and doing a a huge interview with Olivia de Havilland who was just on the cusp of her

00:15:19.560 100th birthday and and remembered so well how Reagan would talk politics between every scene he was

00:15:28.500 obsessed with it in fact when they went to the commissary for lunch actors would wait to see where he sat

00:15:34.600 before going into the commissary so they didn't wind up next to him and getting an earful of politics

00:15:40.080 so politics was always on Reagan's mind and that worked in conjunction with his presidency of the

00:15:46.520 Screen Actors Guild especially during one of the more uh violent times in Hollywood during the strikes

00:15:53.440 in the blacklist and and he he knew how to wend his way through those those particular uh obstacles and

00:16:01.240 that really uh helped him later on when it came time for politics right I mean I think in the book you

00:16:06.820 talk about he stopped being it and then they asked him to come back because he was just everyone thought

00:16:11.600 he did a good job at what he did yeah yeah actually he there was uh he was he was actually the president

00:16:17.260 for five terms running then he took a hiatus thinking I'm never going back to that but they

00:16:22.060 really needed him around the time of the blacklist and he agreed to come back and uh represent the

00:16:27.520 guild again so as you mentioned we talked about earlier in the show he started off as a true

00:16:32.300 believing democratic new dealer but now he became this he's this conservative icon when did his shift

00:16:38.580 in politics start happening was it around this time in the movies yeah oh absolutely it happened during the

00:16:44.260 um during the uh the the violent strikes olivia de Havilland actually set this out for me uh in in

00:16:52.660 perfect terms the different committees in Hollywood at the time there were there were many

00:16:59.540 activist activist committees were being infiltrated by people who believed in in the communist uh

00:17:06.520 principles and Reagan Reagan saw how that really broke up meetings and and interfered with

00:17:16.300 studio politics and felt that communists were were an evil group and so his politics started to skew from the left

00:17:26.140 to the right also Reagan had made a serious mistake he uh when he went into the army he had heard uh during

00:17:36.800 world war ii he had heard that the soldiers during world war one when they came out when the war had ended

00:17:45.260 were forgiven their taxes so Reagan decided to take the chance and not pay his taxes thinking that

00:17:51.620 of course it'll be the same during world war ii and it wasn't and he wound up with a 93 000 tax bill

00:17:59.280 and never forgave uncle sam he always felt uncle sam was picking his pocket that big government was

00:18:06.820 starting to interfere in his life even though it had been his mistake but that also helped skew his

00:18:13.880 politics from the left to the right as well so by the time uh he was finished as a Hollywood star

00:18:20.280 around the mid-1950s Ronald Reagan was seriously looking at the Republican Party and had left the

00:18:26.800 Democratic Party behind well you mentioned that stood in the army i didn't know that about Reagan

00:18:31.160 that he served in the army what what did he do during world war ii uh actually he uh he never left

00:18:37.680 Hollywood he was stationed in Hollywood with something called the first motion picture unit

00:18:42.940 and their job was to make uh training films for the gis uh and in fact it became more serious than that

00:18:50.820 Reagan uh famously narrated a film that was made in a Hollywood studio during world war ii that had a

00:19:00.120 simulation of Japan and as the camera flew over the simulation it guided the pilots later on that would drop

00:19:11.760 the the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki we're gonna take a quick break for your words from our sponsors

00:19:16.680 and now back to the show wow so he his career as a Hollywood star ended in the mid-1950s

00:19:24.500 what did he do between that time that was he kind of did he have like a period sort of like out in the

00:19:28.660 wilderness for a while um not so much the wilderness uh he had a few interesting things the first thing

00:19:37.180 that befell him and when he didn't know what was going to happen in his life was that he took a

00:19:43.900 a two-week job as the host of a corny vaudeville show in a las vegas casino and he was despondent

00:19:52.360 doing something like that but he he got an offer during this time to do television and it was a place

00:19:58.540 that he didn't want to go he felt that once an actor didn't move to television because it was such a

00:20:04.240 fledgling new thing that it would it would be it would shape in his career he still had hopes that

00:20:11.460 he could revive his career although he never did but but an offer came his way to be host of

00:20:17.780 GE's General Electric's Sunday night anthology drama series called GE Theater in which he could act as

00:20:26.140 well on several episodes but the most important thing about that offer was GE also asked him

00:20:32.800 to be its ambassador and that would be to travel during the weeks to its big plants all over America

00:20:42.460 and talk to the workers about what was going on at GE and find out what was going on in the workers

00:20:48.540 lives Reagan absolutely loved this job he did it for several years and again if he had only done this

00:20:57.700 for the rest of his life I think he would have been a happy buckaroo but this is where he became

00:21:03.180 really involved with with the working class and what was going on with their lives and he found that

00:21:10.060 they were very much like the people he grew up with in Dixon Illinois people who were struggling to make

00:21:15.580 ends meet he listened to what they were doing he listened to what their dreams and their desires were

00:21:22.440 and right there in that job at GE he really started to formulate his his foundation as as a

00:21:33.480 politician later on yeah and besides that he would also do what you call it the mashed potato circuit he'd

00:21:39.900 go and do these you know off-the-cuff speeches I think there also he sort of honed that that ability to

00:21:46.120 communicate on the fly but also connect with an audience instantly yeah Reagan loves speaking I mean

00:21:51.260 he spoke to the people with the GE plants he would also always gather a group around and talk to

00:21:57.100 them but then as you said at night he would go out and speak to civic organizations you know the American

00:22:02.900 Legion or the Elks or or whoever paid uh paid for his uh his services and he developed a real he was a

00:22:12.640 raconteur he loved telling jokes he told some Hollywood stories but then he would gravitate to politics and

00:22:19.360 what he what he he thought was going on in the world and what he felt needed to change and and audiences

00:22:25.760 were kept in rapt attention so he uh was the spokesperson for GE during the 50s and how when how

00:22:32.700 long did that stint last to go into the 60s that last you know that lasted five or six years yeah into

00:22:38.180 the 60s exactly right so how did becoming governor of California end up on his radar

00:22:43.920 well you know he he became such a good speaker that he had attracted a small group of businessmen

00:22:53.720 in California where he lived who thought that you know he had some he had something to give in a

00:23:00.440 larger way in a political way and these were wealthy businessmen who were either in they controlled all

00:23:06.520 the car dealerships or the oil uh or or beer manufacturing and they later became of course

00:23:15.180 his kitchen cabinet his famous kitchen cabinet but they asked him to give a speech in 1964

00:23:21.460 for Barry Goldwater as Goldwater's candidacy was really tanking it was a half hour speech on tv which

00:23:30.120 they paid for and it was all there in that speech the charisma the charm the wisdom the connection

00:23:39.520 Reagan had it all and those businessmen looked at him and they thought we've got the wrong politician

00:23:46.500 on the ticket and they decided then and there to run Ronald Reagan for governor of California

00:23:52.520 well before we get to his thing as governor we got to talk about a person that played a huge role

00:23:56.860 in Reagan's life and that was Nancy Reagan his wife his second wife was second wife right yeah we

00:24:02.240 didn't talk about his first wife the actress Jane Wyman and was really crushed when that marriage

00:24:06.520 fell apart but then he meets Nancy and you know one thing if you look at pictures of Ronald and Nancy

00:24:12.560 you always see Nancy kind of looking up wistfully with doe eyes at Ronald Reagan but this picture you

00:24:19.800 painted like she's she was also very assertive and very powerful so what how did what was Nancy's role 0.99

00:24:25.240 in Reagan's political career well you know it's funny when I first when I wrote about the Beatles

00:24:31.260 I knew that the boogeyman of the story was Yoko Ono right and boy was I wrong she was not

00:24:38.780 in fact she was a strong assertive woman and when I when I began working on the Reagan biography

00:24:44.980 I thought aha well I understand the boogeyman of this book is going to be Nancy Reagan and I was wrong

00:24:51.740 again as you said she was strong she was assertive she had his back throughout his entire life when

00:25:01.120 they got to the White House later on Nancy had one goal and one goal only in mind and that was to

00:25:08.080 protect her husband's legacy she wanted him to be known after his presidency as a man of peace

00:25:16.260 and from the very first day they set foot in the Oval Office she hounded him incessantly to make peace

00:25:26.580 with the Soviet Union and to reduce the threat of nuclear war and I think after all my research I can 0.69

00:25:34.960 safely say that we have Nancy Reagan to thank for Reagan meeting with Gorbachev and indeed reducing the

00:25:43.540 threat of nuclear annihilation and and the dismantlement of the Soviet Empire so you know circling back to

00:25:50.960 his career as governor what was his leadership style like as an executive well you know he didn't really

00:25:56.080 know what he was doing as governor to begin with he he really was just winging it and so at the

00:26:01.940 beginning the first two years were a little chaotic but then he he hit a stride and and here's what

00:26:08.020 he discovered he had a mostly democratic assembly in in his legislature and of course he was a

00:26:15.880 republican and he realized that the only way he could get anything done was through compromise and

00:26:22.840 cooperation and so Reagan frequently reached across the aisle to work with the democrats and to get bills

00:26:31.400 passed and this was something that occurred not only in his governorship but in his presidency as well

00:26:37.440 because he wound up with the democratic legislature and tip o'neill as a very strong democratic speaker

00:26:44.840 of the house they disagreed on everything but he Reagan would reach across the aisle work with o'neill and 0.89

00:26:52.340 get things done and he really learned this as the governor of california you know he he decided that

00:26:59.380 he he had to represent everybody in his state that is unheard of today well so let's talk about his

00:27:07.300 political career as president because i thought this was one of the most fascinating sections you know

00:27:11.800 leading up to his nomination as president in 1980 because there's this huge amount of fierce politicking

00:27:19.000 going on in the republican party the republican party was sort of undergoing a identity crisis we can call

00:27:24.620 it that and Reagan steps in and he was kind of a long shot at first wasn't he yeah he was a long shot i mean

00:27:31.880 you know everybody thought of him as just an actor who wanted was trying to become president and they

00:27:37.040 were also worried about his his kind of conservative politics which were were new that that was a new

00:27:44.580 a new strain of of republicanism that hadn't been uh in the white house before and and so yeah he was

00:27:53.480 a long shot i mean the person who wasn't the long shot was george bush george bush had won the um the

00:27:59.880 um the iowa primary the iowa caucuses and was just about to sweep the uh the new hampshire primaries 0.53

00:28:07.560 as well until a famous debate with reagan in which bush fell apart and reagan's candidacy took off

00:28:16.020 so he he was a dark horse but but once he won the nomination actually he was still a dark horse

00:28:23.680 people expected jimmy carter to uh to win a second term but the uh iranian hostage crisis had really

00:28:31.020 torpedoed carter's presidency well another thing we didn't mention this he he challenged gerald ford

00:28:36.840 right when gerald ford ran yeah that was in 76 he ran against gerald ford absolutely unheard of to

00:28:44.000 challenge an incumbent in your own party reagan almost won the nomination it was only uh at the last

00:28:52.360 minute that that he didn't and ford really never forgave him for that and so when ford when ford

00:28:59.800 heard that he was running again he tried to offer him a an ambassadorship somewhere to get reagan out

00:29:05.700 of the way or a cabinet post that would have you know put him in a corner somewhere but reagan was

00:29:11.560 too savvy to to fall for that and you mentioned that okay going back to that debate i know we're

00:29:15.480 kind of jumping around with george bush that was that famous debate where like reagan's campaign

00:29:20.540 paid for it and that's where he said that famous line like i paid for this mic microphone and for

00:29:25.140 some reason it brought down the house yeah it was it was a very famous debate it occurred toward the

00:29:30.480 end of the new hampshire primary when he and george bush were running neck and neck it was a tumultuous

00:29:37.380 night and in the book i really dramatize it because it was full of drama bush tried to keep the other

00:29:44.840 candidates who were running bob dole howard baker phil crane and john anderson off the debate stage

00:29:51.940 and reagan wanted them on the debate stage and in the band room at the school where they were holding

00:29:57.820 the debate i mean they were all screaming at each other it was incredible bush was on the stage waiting

00:30:04.800 for reagan and and reagan brought up the other people the other candidates on stage and bush's people

00:30:13.340 would not let them speak bush wouldn't even look at ronald reagan he wouldn't look at him in the eye

00:30:19.260 and so once the other candidates left and it was just bush and reagan on this dais bush fell apart

00:30:27.380 and and reagan kind of never forgave him for that when it came time to choose a vice president later on

00:30:34.780 and george bush was the obvious choice reagan's mind flashed back to that night in new hampshire and

00:30:41.260 thought i don't want a guy who falls apart as my vice president but they they struck a deal after

00:30:47.740 that and of course you know how that turned out we know how it turns out so he becomes president what

00:30:52.920 was his leadership style like as president was it similar to what he did as governor of california

00:30:57.140 sort of delegate uh very hands-off yeah absolutely you know reagan reagan was not the smartest man in

00:31:04.240 the room and he knew it you know he his ego wasn't so big that he he couldn't hire experts and rely on

00:31:13.240 their advice which is what he did he had a fantastic chief of staff in jim baker he had ed meese advising

00:31:21.140 him on his politics mike deaver in the oval office who handed up handled all of his personal things and he

00:31:28.580 he deferred to these people especially to his national security people he listened to them he

00:31:34.680 sifted through information he chose the best people and often he changed his mind on based on what they

00:31:42.020 had told him and and reagan again and i can't emphasize this too strongly was willing to reach across

00:31:50.380 the aisle to make compromises to bring the democrats into his fold and to get things accomplished and

00:31:58.460 he did there was no infighting you know they disagreed on policy uh reagan and the democrats but there was

00:32:06.680 no fighting or hurling insults or disparaging someone's character or i mean there was just none of

00:32:14.640 that they they worked arm in arm yeah i mean it seems like one of reagan's things you talk about

00:32:19.000 throughout the book was this idea he's dedicated to decency just american values and like he wanted

00:32:24.900 americans to feel that right and inspire americans to to reach for that yeah i think if you know you

00:32:32.140 could point to one thing that reagan accomplished more than anything else he restored the morale of

00:32:38.520 americans for their government and and their leaders and that in itself is is a remarkable accomplishment

00:32:46.160 and another interesting fact about presidents uh reagan's presidency is just a few months he had

00:32:51.620 an assassination attempt and i didn't i didn't know how close this guy was to dying i mean it was pretty

00:32:56.540 bad right yeah again in the book i was lucky enough to be able to speak to all the doctors and the nurses

00:33:03.240 who had uh attended him while uh he uh was in the hospital and they told me uh the specific instances

00:33:12.080 of how close that bullet was to his heart and and how difficult it was to remove it there was a chance

00:33:19.960 he was not going to make it and this was only you know this was a month after he had taken office that's

00:33:26.640 how quickly that this had happened so um i i think that assassination attempt changed his entire

00:33:34.080 perspective it really put him in touch with his own mortality and he realized that he had some some quick

00:33:41.820 work to do and and he had to again reach out to the soviets and try to find a way to make peace

00:33:47.900 and again exercising that great communicator improvisation ability and his wife comes in

00:33:53.280 sees him on the the bed and he he says famously honey i forgot to duck yeah that was actually a joe lewis

00:33:59.460 line uh joe lewis used that when he was knocked out in his famous championship fight and reagan you know

00:34:07.260 reagan the sportscaster knew that line and knew knew when to use it so reagan's presidency there

00:34:13.360 were some controversies there's the iran contra affair the the economy started slowing down a bit

00:34:18.720 there was the strike with the air traffic controllers that he had to shut down but despite all these

00:34:24.280 controversies reagan remained a pretty popular president throughout his entire career i mean what

00:34:29.500 do you think the appeal was it was just his ability to connect and communicate with people

00:34:32.980 yeah you know he was an actor who would become president and so he knew how to use the camera he

00:34:39.900 knew how to talk to people and and he also strove for a middle ground you know he was a pragmatist he was

00:34:46.760 conservative but he was not a what you would call a right winger he was a man who kind of hewed to the

00:34:53.600 middle and i think you know if he looked at bill clinton's uh candidacy years later clinton as a democrat

00:35:00.720 also hewed to the middle i mean that was his secret and that's why his presidency was so successful

00:35:07.560 yeah reagan reagan knew that he was the president of all americans not just a few americans and and so

00:35:17.740 i think he tried to do things that were not too radical or too unexpected or too self-serving

00:35:24.960 and that's why when an ardent democrat like myself who never voted him looks back on his career

00:35:32.640 i have a little fondness for it would i vote for him today absolutely not because those aren't my

00:35:39.780 politics i don't follow those policies but do i respect him as a man and a leader absolutely 100

00:35:47.080 yeah i mean during those times as president he gave some really famous speeches we've done some

00:35:52.340 articles like the most famous speeches in american history and reagan's challenger speech always comes

00:35:57.840 up his speech about tearing down the wall always comes up i mean were those i mean did he write those

00:36:03.520 himself or were those sort of off the cuff or he just he i'm gonna go they weren't they were written

00:36:08.860 for him but the secret was knowing how to deliver them you know you could write something for anybody if

00:36:16.880 they don't know how to deliver it and put it across and really sell their audience then no matter what's

00:36:22.200 on the printed page you know doesn't doesn't mean that much yeah he had a way of communicating with

00:36:28.780 his populace and and people loved him for it and and um and i i would say safely miss him for it as well

00:36:38.360 what was what were his last years like well you know his last years were were haphazard he um

00:36:45.260 famously uh came down with with alzheimer's disease um i i was actually very fortunate to be able to

00:36:54.460 talk to the people who were in the room with him when they told him that he had it i think it was

00:37:01.080 always on the horizon for him his mother had died of it his father had it his brother neil had it

00:37:06.900 i think reagan always felt it was coming down the pike it was no surprise and and for for several

00:37:14.240 years after his presidency he managed to go into the office every day and and see people bill clinton

00:37:21.840 famously came to see him george bush came to see him often and he had his finger on the pulse of

00:37:28.880 washington but as the alzheimer's took over his mind started to slip away and things got tough for him

00:37:36.100 and in the end the last two years of his life nancy made sure that he was not seen publicly

00:37:42.220 and she really gave up her own life to sit and take care of him until he died you know it's been 30

00:37:48.980 years since his presidency is there sort of a consensus developing amongst historians and political

00:37:53.740 scientists about his administration or his legacy i think more about his legacy than his administration

00:37:59.680 he's been cited in all kinds of polls as being one of the 10 great presidencies

00:38:04.820 i i don't think it was really for what he did although there was the dissolution of the you know

00:38:12.280 the soviet union and really his peaceful negotiations with mikhail gorbachev but you know his his second

00:38:19.540 administration was mired in iran contra controversy rightfully so and he had really missed the boat on the

00:38:29.020 aids crisis he completely avoided it which he even admitted was a huge mistake in his career

00:38:36.460 so i think his legacy when you look at it is more about reagan the man than reagan the president but

00:38:43.560 yeah he's ranked he's always ranked very high what do you what do you hope people walk away with about

00:38:49.260 reagan after finishing your book oh i you know look i mean i this is a man whose life framed the entire

00:38:56.720 20th century so really um you it's as you mentioned at the outset it's a great history lesson you know

00:39:05.160 um it's a great history lesson there's a lot about hollywood there's a lot about growing up in the midwest

00:39:12.600 and of course a shift to the right and the rise of conservatism so i i think you know what i'd like

00:39:21.720 people to walk away with more than anything is the fact that ronald reagan changed our lives and

00:39:27.600 changed the culture and this is how it happened it's a real behind the scenes look at it i was

00:39:33.900 afforded the right to see his private papers which nobody had ever seen before these weren't the papers

00:39:42.420 in the reagan library these were the ones that were in his office desk that he referred to

00:39:47.800 often as he was governor and president and so i hope that uh you really get a sense of the man and

00:39:54.160 what he accomplished in his life well bob is there some place people can go to learn more about your

00:39:58.120 work absolutely head to my website bobspitz.com you can find about out about all my books and if you

00:40:06.420 want an autographed copy you can even get one through the website so uh it's a good place to start to

00:40:11.440 look well bob spitz thanks for your time it's been an absolute pleasure mine too thanks for uh for

00:40:16.700 having me here my guest today was bob spitz he's the author of the biography reagan an american journey

00:40:21.900 it's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere you can find out more information

00:40:25.380 about his work at bobspitz.com also check out our show notes at aom.is slash ronald reagan

00:40:30.720 where you can find links to resources we can delve deeper into this topic

00:40:33.680 well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast check out our website artofmanliness.com

00:40:50.480 where you can find thousands of articles and just about anything social skills personal finance

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00:41:10.720 and until next time this is brett mckay encouraging you to not only listen to the aom podcast but put

00:41:15.180 what you've learned into action

00:41:16.620 you

The Art of Manliness - January 09, 2019

#472： Reagan, the Man

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