#490： Can You Learn to Be Lucky？
Episode Stats
Summary
There s no doubt that luck plays a role in how successful we are in life, but the more we believe in luck, the less motivated we feel to proactively go after our goals. How do we navigate the paradox around luck, acknowledging the influence of chance but not letting it demoralize us? Her name is Carla Star, and she s the author of Can You Learn to Be Lucky: Why Some People seem to Win More Often Than Others. Today, on the show, Carla argues that no matter what hand you re dealt in life there are still many things you have control over that you can influence to make your own luck.
Transcript
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brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast there's no doubt
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that luck plays a role in how successful we are in life but the more we believe in luck the less
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motivated we feel to proactively go after our goals so how do we navigate this paradox around
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luck acknowledging the influence of chance but not letting it demoralize us i guess they argues that
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the answer lies in seeing life more like playing a game of poker and pulling the handle of a slot
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machine her name is carla star she's the author of can you learn to be lucky why some people seem to
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win more often than others today on the show carla argues that no matter what hand you're dealt in
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life there are still many things you have control over that you can influence to make your own luck
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we talk about how the things that come down to chance like the timing of a job interview how
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physically attractive you are whether you have more or less resilient genes can be influenced
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or counteracted by our own proactive behaviors that more opportunities in life fall our way
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out of the show's over check out our show notes at aom.is slash lucky
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carla star welcome to the show thank you so much for having me so you wrote a book can you learn to be
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more lucky curious what got you thinking about luck was there an event in your life where you're like i
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need to look more into this yes it was 10 years ago i was living in buenos aires for a few years and
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then i moved back to the states to portland oregon right around the height of the great recession
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and it just seemed like there was so much randomness and chaos everywhere around me like you know who was
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unemployed what was going on so i just wanted to study the one underlying thing that would help me
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improve as many aspects of my life and help me kind of wrap my head around what was going on
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so when you talk about luck how do you how are you defining luck in your book people say that something
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is due to luck when we say that it's caused by something that's external unpredictable or outside of
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our control so this might be the case maybe we lost the game because the ref made a bad call or we
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didn't get a part because the director didn't like our shirt but the problem is that people usually make
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this shift from i can do something about this to oh it's out of my hands way too early and this is
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partly because our brains are fundamentally lazy right we're always looking for a shortcut and it's easier
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to just change our goal and say oh that's good enough than it is to try harder but this is also
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really to save our ego so if we think that we lost the game because of this bad call we can still tell
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ourselves like no we're really better it was just that's a bad thing that happened so in other words
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when people start blaming luck they're making this shift from you know i can do something this is an
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internal cause to an external cause which means that they're giving up personal responsibility and
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really making an excuse so overall while it does make sense to say that luck exists the more often we
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blame it the less motivated we are to examine our contribution our part and how things happened
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and overall that leads towards outcomes it takes more energy to see your part and change but there's
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always something you can do so when you say can we learn to be lucky what does that mean so if
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these things are outside of control do we have more control than we think we do absolutely i think
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that i mean that's one of the huge things um one of the huge themes in the book is that people's
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just their overall like life goals and the way that we manage to accomplish our things that we set out
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to do um there's pretty much a direct correlation between how much control we think we have and
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whether or not people actually accomplish their objectives and part of that is because the whole
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idea of thinking we can control things like you know we become more likely to persist we become more
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likely to you know look at our part in things and you know there's always something we can do even if
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it's just trying again so i think the other part of it is that luck is essentially just when everything
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goes right i think that people underlook this idea because you know for the most part things go pretty
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well we don't always appreciate that so it's also just kind of being able to capitalize on like just the
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randomness and be open to things so there are a lot of different ways to conceptualize it which is
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one of the reasons that can be a little tricky but overall you know knowing that we can control
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things or knowing that you know there's something we can do about it that's really adaptive because
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the second that we think something is uncontrollable that actually makes it stressful and it actually
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reduces our motivation to even work on something so the idea is it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy
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if you think things are going to go your way and you take action to make things go your way
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things that you otherwise would have attributed to luck if things didn't go your way you say well no i
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can actually do this and i actually can influence that more than i than most people think yes 100
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there's another theme in the book is this idea of positive illusions so people think like cognitive
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biases are all bad you know they're all just these weird shortcuts that our brain takes but there's
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actually one family of cognitive biases that's completely adaptive and that's called positive illusions
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so that's things like optimism and confidence and these are all completely adaptive and lead to
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better life outcomes to the extent that they promote goal-directed action so if you think
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i can you know work really hard and make my dream come true then guess what you're going to work hard
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and your dreams are more likely to come true and i think another thing we'll we'll delve deeper in
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here when we talk about specific things that you can do to you know get more lucky or get luckier
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is that there are things that people would otherwise attribute to luck or actually attributable to luck
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right like timing or things like that but like you show ways that you can influence that
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in your direction right right so like timing you know that's something that you know generally is
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out of our control but i think once you kind of look at the other side of the coin and you look at
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people's decision making process and you kind of understand like you know why it is that they're
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more likely to you know to do something at a certain time i think that can just you know really help us
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understand like the mechanisms and that can you know help attack it yeah i think what you're trying
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to do is increase so like there's always a continuum of like skill and luck or randomness
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what you're trying to do is increase that the the luck or the the you're trying to increase the skill
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part of it right and reduce luck yes 100 like i have this spectrum that i use when i give talks
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sometimes and you know people look at you know and think of luck they might just think of like oh it's
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a slot machine right like that's kind of what life is like you just go up to it you press a little
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button and like you know whatever happens happens and you know really a much better metaphor for life
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or all these things like poker like you don't necessarily have control over the cards that you
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were dealt however you know poker like there are skills that you can learn and become a better poker
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player so regardless of the hand you're actually dealt we can learn how to play it better right so
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this is what this book kind of gets at it it's it's recognizing that luck does play a role but
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there are places or things we can do where we can influence things a bit more so let's get into
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the specifics i thought it was really interesting let's talk about some of the specificness of that
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so let's talk about well first this before we get specific like what do you think is the overarching
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principle of all these ideas you highlight in the book where we can tilt luck more into our favor
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i think negative unpredictable things or random things have a predictably self-defeating influence
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on our behavior so pretty much the brain is lazy we are lazy we are you know always motivated to do
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less whenever we can so if we think that it's not worth it to try a little harder we won't try a
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little harder and then we prove ourselves right so overall i think you know motivate motivation motivation
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to persist motivation to get better you know confidence like social skills like pretty much is entirely
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contingent on motivation so let's talk about uh how timing can influence the outcomes of you know
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whether we get a job whether we win a contest like take like a job we think well i got the job because
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i had the resume i impressed the people in the interview i've got the skills but you highlight
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research that sometimes that's not the case just sometimes you get the job because you showed up at a
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certain time during the day when they were doing interviews 100 it could be the time of day you
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it could be you know oh you happen to wear a green tie you know and the person who had this job that
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you're interviewing for used to wear green ties all the time and he was kind of a jerk you know so
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you subconsciously remind the interviewer of that person so there are all these like very small
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things that can influence your chances of success in one way or another that have absolutely nothing
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to do with your merit as an applicant well and i you've also highlighted a lot of research showing
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that you know you talked about the westminster dog show as an example or even a tattoo contest and
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what you found was what the researchers have found is that the people who last in the contest you know
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to be judged they typically win like what's going on there why do those people typically win
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so if you think about what happens when we look at say a series of things over the course of the night
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if you're looking at like an olympic contest the first thing you see what you're really doing is
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you're grading those against the ideals that are in your head you know you're kind of going to be
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a little more critical of them and you're always going to leave a little room at the top because you
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never really know what else is going to go there however what happens as you go along and as you see
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more performances or more tattoos the context in which you are evaluating things shifts so what you're
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doing as you go along further than night is you're not comparing them to the ideals in your head
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but you're comparing them implicitly even though you don't realize this you're comparing them to
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the other things you've already seen so by the time you get to the last you know tattoo or song or
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whatever you're able to point out the unique qualities that that thing has that nothing else
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you know you've seen before has and then you're also able to just say like wow this is the best you
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know that was the best jump we've seen throughout the night whereas the first performance you saw you
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were not able to say wow this is the only performance we will see where this person executed
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that jump perfectly no yeah that makes a lot of sense and the other thing going to you know going
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for you if you go last is like they remember you more because you're the last thing they saw
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absolutely so they mistake the vividness of their memory as a sort of you know idea of like the
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quality of how you know how good it was right so you think oh well if it was really good it would
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be you know really memorable it would be really vivid when actually it's just timing and the
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recency effect so in the the case of something like a job interview luck might determine when
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you have the interview so the the timing component is out of your hands despite that what can you do
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to help influence the outcome well one thing i think is um is really robust is to just try to remind
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other people of the ways that you remind or the things that you have in common with other people
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who have succeeded in that position beforehand you know so you kind of what you want to do is you
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want to make it as easy as possible for other people to see you in that position regardless of
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where you go gotcha so yeah and i so if you don't if you can't influence whether you're you know the
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first or the last one to go if you're the first one you try to be as memorable as possible by doing
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something like you just said or even just yeah being memorable right and i think also you know the
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timing throughout the day can be kind of tricky because you might have your interview you know right at
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the end of the day or at the beginning of the day however once it really depends on when that person
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has decided and we're not always privy to that information you know they might decide you know
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at the end of the day on tuesday so then you know it doesn't matter when you go on wednesday they've
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already kind of made up their mind so yeah and in that case you know so i think this is useful to
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know because you might have all the credentials you might have what it takes to do the job you don't get
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it and it might not because it might just because you just you interviewed at the wrong time
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and that's it and you shouldn't feel get too down on yourself absolutely and i hear this from people
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all the time you know oh i really wanted to switch careers and you know get into this line of work
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but i applied and they didn't take me you know but that is one data point and i can say you know after
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researching all these things for 10 years like just fundamentally this book has made me so much more
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resilient and just so much more optimistic because when you realize like how obscure or how random some of
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these the things that influence people's decision making process can be you will realize like
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no it's not always about you so let's talk about more into this this decision making process that
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you know we think is luck but we can actually influence it a bit so when we go to a job interview
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or we you know apply for a job we think the decision maker is being super rational they're looking
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right at the our credentials and they're making this analytical choice because they say well we need xx for
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the job and this person has xx so we're going to hire them but you make the case that no that's not
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how we really make decisions humans often make decisions in their gut first and then after the fact
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they come up with the the rational reasons well i remember talking to michael mozenbaum he wrote the
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book about success and luck and talent and luck and he gave this example that going in place for it
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in his in his real life example was he went to go in interview for this job there's a lot of
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competition and he happened to see that the interviewer had like a washington redskins trash
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can and he just said oh i love the washington redskins too and they had this talk about
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washington redskins and like like nothing came up about his credentials but he still got the job and
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it was just one of those cases like he lucked out this guy was also a washington redskins fan
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and he got the job because of it oh yeah that happens all the time well so what do you do if
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you're applying for a job and you you know this is happening that people are making decisions with
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their gut first because they they might see you and they like okay like you said they remind you
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remind that person of like their ex or their crazy uncle and immediately they're like no that's this
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guy we're not hiring this guy but like what can you do knowing that that's happening to kind of tilt
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luck more towards your favor so i think it's important to remember that it's fundamentally this
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process of us gathering information and then sort of like weighing the costs and benefits of the pros
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and cons so it's really important to remember that the first piece of information or the initial pieces
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of information that people get about you are the most informative and they kind of end up skewing
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how people filter the rest of the information they get about you and that is why it is so so much easier
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to get a job through connections because then it's oh well you know dan recommended this person
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therefore you know dan's a good guy therefore we're going to look at the rest of this person's
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application or resume through that positive lens or oh this person came recommended to us through
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this agency or through this you know common linkedin connection or oh we saw this person you know this
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one project that they did that really stood out so they're going to look at everything else in a
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really positive light all right so build that network up build that network yeah it's huge and also
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just you know whatever you can do to not just be one in the pile right another thing that can
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influence whether and it's sort of this sort of a continuation what we've just been talking about
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is like so if someone just likes you they're more likely to you know pick you for a job accept your
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pitch go on a date with you but what's interesting you highlight research that sometimes what causes
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people to like us is that they just see us a lot and it's not that for me that first impression has a
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big sway can can influence things for a long term but over time that person sees you over and over again
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they start liking you and they're more willing to go with you if they have to make a decision that
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involves you absolutely so it's the called the mere exposure effect so the whole idea is that
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mere exposure or simple exposure can make us like somebody more over time because we get a chance to
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constantly see that person and then it's just essentially a learning process we're learning to
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associate this one person with nothing bad happening so an evolution is this idea that whatever is
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familiar hasn't eaten you yet so the more you see somebody the more safe they appear the less risky
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they appear and then also you just have more opportunities to collect information and find
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you know good information about somebody but this is also really it's a good example of why it's so
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important for why first impressions are so key because if the first impression that someone gets about you
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or the first interaction that someone has with you is negative then what are they going to do well
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they're just going to assume wow this person is a jerk and then they're going to filter you and the
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rest of your actions through that lens so usually like seeing someone over and over it usually is
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positive because you know we repeat actions or repeat interactions if they are positive and we're
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pretty much for the most part like fundamentally motivated to maintain good relationships with the people we see
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and does this like so this is a proximity effect does it have to be like you could be physical
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physically close like in like the same like see this person physically like meat space we'll call it
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for this effect to happen or can this happen online as well well it's definitely physically is just it's
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safer because we get context you know things are interactive you know kind of are more motivated to have
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like positive impressions in person whereas if somebody just sees you online you know i think social
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media is it's especially really kind of dangerous for this because people are we're always just putting
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up these you know very filtered kind of curated impressions of ourselves so there's this whole idea
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of the ideal self whereas we'll like people and we're even willing to like people if we think
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they're maybe a little better than us but if we feel that they're kind of like they've exceeded that
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you know maybe if they're like showboating or something that's when jealousy can get involved and i think
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that's one of the reasons why social media can be so tricky because we don't really see the whole
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the nuance or the context you know we don't realize like oh this is just this you know this one awesome
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moment in this person's month and we should be happy for them that they are in this awesome trip because
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you know other awful things happen to them right so what can we do like knowing that okay if we if
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the mere exposure effect plays a role in whether people like us or not like what can we do
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say if you're looking for a job or i mean this could like also work in your romantic life as well
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absolutely i mean i think this is so this is actually one of the interesting things that
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i've you know also uncovered in the research is i think that people really overemphasize the impact
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of luck or the impact of these one you know this one interaction or this one thing that led to this
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host of other things and really like personality traits or character strengths that we can develop are
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really predictive of overall life outcomes because it's not just that one thing it's oh this person
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you know made a hundred contacts and it happened to be that one that ended up paying off you know or
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oh this person is involved in that many social groups and they have this large of a social network
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you know and that is how they're able to like you know finally meet the person who ended up you
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know becoming their significant other all right so yeah the takeaway get out there mix it up
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with people in real real life yeah and that was actually this one thing that this relationship
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researcher told me he said that you know people you know they think about like online dating and it's
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it's really just a numbers game and that can make people become you know a little jaded and when in
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fact most successful long-term relationships happen between people who have already known each other for
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a long time yeah we had him on the podcast he talked about his research that was really interesting
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yeah yeah like most people who they end up with uh who they end up marrying or whatever like they
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worked with them or they were a friend for years as opposed to they just found each other on tinder or
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whatever yes by far absolutely you get you know it's the whole backfinding thing you just are able to
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collect more information about the person and then you know it's just you get to know somebody before
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you decide should you be in a relationship with them or not as opposed to just you know is their face cute
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and that you know and physical appearance you know it is important to be attracted to somebody
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but there's this huge personality effect on how attractive we find somebody so over time as you
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get to know somebody you know personality is definitely what can change a 7 to a 10 or a 7 to a 3
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no yeah you highlight he did some he talked about research where you know they they had students in
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a classroom rate each other like physical and like attractiveness at the beginning of the semester
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and you know the the the ratings were what you'd expect like you know the objectively attractive
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people were nines and tens or whatever but at the end of the year the end of the semester they did
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the the rating again and who was ranked you know the most physically it was like all over the place there
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was like no because people got to know each other and some personalities clicked and they found that
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personality more attractive and that influence you know they they brought that in as a factor
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into the physical attractiveness absolutely so it's just kind of like you're you know is this
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person a 10 or not well that depends on how much information you have about them so when you first meet
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somebody and the only information you have about them is their physical appearance but when you kind
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of get to know and see somebody and all their complexity you know that one number actually has so many
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more variables behind it we're gonna take a quick break for your word from our sponsors
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and now back to the show let's let's kind of continue that thread of physical attractiveness because you
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you talk about this in the research that you know people who are physically attractive tend to have
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a pretty great life so i mean talk about like so it's not only just being physically attractive and
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like people see you and they like you because you're physically attractive but like it also sort of like
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greases the wheels for pretty much the rest of their life and all facets of their life talk about that
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a little bit i honestly i ended up just researching this for months and months because i was like what
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this really can't happen this can't be true but life is so much easier for physically
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attractive people on so many aspects like you know when they get arrested or when they're on trial
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they're more likely to be found not guilty they're more likely to be given lighter sentences
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and the only case that they're actually penalized in the legal system is when the juries figure that
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they use their appearance as a weapon so it's in cases of like fraud for example but just fundamentally
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you know physically attractive people have better genes so we're more like just from an evolutionary
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standpoint we're more motivated to bond with them you know they seem to be like free of pathogens
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and that influences like how much money we give them in these economic trust games that influences
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just social interactions in general because you know just imagine like everybody is always coming
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up to you and they're always being super nice to you and so you just over time you feel like you have
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a larger sense of social support and your self-esteem is kind of you know tends to be higher
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and you just you really get graded on a curve for everything for your entire life i mean even you
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know students create or teachers give students higher grades on essays when they they're attractive
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students so it's all these things that you would not really even expect or you know like why would a
00:23:09.520
teacher give a cute kid a higher grade that kind of seems weird but that actually happens no i thought
00:23:14.720
the really interesting point that i didn't never thought about is if you're physically attractive
00:23:17.660
as you said people just are nice to you they're they're more willing to cut you a break and
00:23:22.240
whatever but like that will influence how you interact with the world you go out in the world
00:23:26.060
with this like sort of optimistic bias that the you know this person's a friend he's going to be a
00:23:31.520
friend of mine i don't the universe is going to you know work for me as opposed to if you didn't
00:23:36.140
have that going for you where you have to like you're always looking for threats and people like
00:23:40.500
treating you like garbage like if you have that if you've lived with that your entire life like
00:23:44.860
that can be a big boon to you oh it's huge like i i feel like you know just personally the more
00:23:50.540
physically attractive people i know are also the ones who you know they're they take more risks
00:23:55.300
they'll you know go on these trips they'll move somewhere and they'll pursue their dreams
00:24:00.000
why because they know that if they kind of get you know they all this stuff together and they pack up
00:24:04.720
and they move to the other side of the country it'll be that much easier for them to make friends and
00:24:08.460
have a new social group and so it's just kind of like wherever they go like you know there's going
00:24:13.300
to be a safety net for them and they just have that much more of a robust sense of that you know
00:24:17.820
whereas opposed to people who are you know they're in their hometown they're like oh you know what why
00:24:22.200
bother it's just that much harder and it's it's so it's one of those things it's you know they're
00:24:26.740
lucky you know physically attractive people are lucky because they get you know this good good social
00:24:32.600
stuff coming to them all the time however what that does is that ends up influencing what they bring to
00:24:37.800
the table right so they're going to be a little friendly or they're going to be a little outgoing
00:24:41.200
so that is what they're bringing to the table however they're bringing that to the table because
00:24:47.120
of this like more positive history of experiences right so physical attractiveness that's like
00:24:52.820
pure randomness right that's just genes you're whether you're the parents you had and how the genes
00:24:57.880
interacted with each other to make you so like what do you do like if you got the short end of the
00:25:03.800
physical attractiveness stick well interestingly enough i'm glad you brought this up 50 of how we
00:25:09.980
tend to rate other people in physical attractiveness is this component called grooming so i don't know
00:25:15.740
if you've ever like googled or looked up um you know oh if celebrities were like us and they have
00:25:21.180
these pictures of um things like beyonce and jay-z and they're wearing these like just hideous clothes
00:25:27.220
and they're a little bit chubby and their hair is kind of gross you know it's kind of like what you
00:25:31.120
know or like what britney spears or you know cameron diaz would look like if they were in the midwest
00:25:35.760
and it is really funny it's like oh they have the same face but it's just the rest of them you know
00:25:41.280
it's not just their face but it's like what they're doing with the rest of it so like are they in good
00:25:45.440
shape well what kind of clothes are they wearing what is their hair like are they well groomed so there
00:25:51.240
is a lot you can do with that and i think that's another one of those things where it's kind of like
00:25:55.540
the math effect like the rich get richer i think that people who have a more positive history of being
00:26:01.000
told like oh you're attractive they're more willing to kind of make the most of what they have
00:26:05.500
whereas other people who maybe are a little more self-conscious about their appearance figure like
00:26:09.940
oh why bother you know so they won't go to the gym they won't you know put any thought into what
00:26:16.540
they're wearing and people you know whether or not we'd like to admit it we're all kind of shallow
00:26:21.840
and we're all making these snap decisions about other people so yeah easy just shower shave go to the
00:26:28.120
go to the gym like that's stuff you can do it's stuff you can do absolutely and i think so i i went
00:26:34.540
shopping with a personal stylist and i spent some time with this this woman who's like a you know
00:26:39.800
social coach and so i actually started paying a little more attention to my clothes and my parents
00:26:44.720
and i am absolutely i continue to be dumbfounded and how much easier that makes social interactions
00:26:52.160
and how much better people treat me i think like it's if you're looking for like you know quick and
00:26:57.000
easy way to just make your life better like by far that has the best ratio of cost and benefits of
00:27:02.980
anything i've done so another aspect of whether people get more lucky in life is if they just have
00:27:09.420
this attitude that things are going to work their way they have confidence and a lot of people think
00:27:14.800
that you know you either have confidence or you don't you're born with it or you're not but you
00:27:18.960
you highlight research no it's not the case you can actually develop your confidence oh absolutely
00:27:23.480
you can develop your confidence in any aspect of your life i think confidence is really us knowing
00:27:28.980
that you know what things will be okay if if they don't work out things might go to hell in a hand
00:27:34.340
basket and i think it's a lot of it has to do with attention so it's just how much attention do we give
00:27:40.400
the potential rewards or how much attention do we pay to our our mistakes so i notice now like you know
00:27:46.840
people who are really confident someone who's really confident and let's say someone who's kind
00:27:50.440
of anxious or insecure they can go and do the same thing right so say maybe they'll go up to someone
00:27:56.440
they're attracted to and they'll you know ask them on a date you know and the person who is kind of
00:28:01.140
more confident they'll be like oh if you say no like okay you know thanks but they won't crumble you
00:28:07.240
know they won't kind of ruminate they won't obsess over it they will realize that that is not in any sort
00:28:11.720
of like objective statement about their self-worth whereas someone who's kind of insecure they might
00:28:16.480
ruminate and get down on it and then like obsess over that negative thing forever so a confident
00:28:21.560
person has like that approach attitude towards rewards whereas like unconfident they have like a
00:28:26.140
avoidance like they're unconfident people they they fear the downsides more than they than they are
00:28:32.320
going after the rewards whereas confident people focus more on the rewards right so less confident
00:28:37.520
people they have a more active what's called a behavioral inhibition system which is like
00:28:42.700
essentially just our brain kind of putting the brakes on our behavior whereas confident people you
00:28:47.740
know they're all about like approaching rewards and like not really letting other things get in their
00:28:52.380
way and so often if you look at it it really is just us getting in our own way you know it's our
00:28:57.280
our attitude or our anxieties or our obsession over this bad thing that's going to happen and we're so
00:29:02.640
sure of it no but that's another place where luck does play a role a little bit
00:29:06.660
is our temperament is also determined by genetics often gays you know neurotic people or neurotic
00:29:12.060
often because they got neurotic parents or neurotic grandparents so but even though that's the case
00:29:17.240
there's still wiggle room for you to to shape that though absolutely i think that's like one of the
00:29:22.700
really cool things you know that i studied is that you know whenever we're talking about like oh is it
00:29:26.320
is it genes or is it something that we can learn you know and those questions the answer is really both
00:29:32.840
you know it's always both so it's maybe you do have like the genes that make you you know learn
00:29:38.340
from mistakes more easily than rewards which is actually you know a potential thing because of all
00:29:43.240
these different um variabilities in our dopamine receptors but it really is just attention and how
00:29:48.960
much attention we pay to things so people who might have really anxious or neurotic parents
00:29:53.180
they might have that those bad genes that you know make their dopamine receptors more likely to learn
00:29:58.460
from mistakes but then they also end up paying attention to this more so it is possible absolutely
00:30:03.840
to have like this bad you know mix of genes but then over time just train yourself you know through
00:30:10.420
like meditation or mindfulness or just um all these little things you can do it's like self-affirmation
00:30:15.480
studies just focus on the good things and let yourself be guided by the rewards instead of
00:30:19.940
just fearful of the potential bad things so you also talk about olympic athletes and we usually
00:30:25.320
hold these guys up as like paragons of hard work that wasn't luck at all but you highlight research
00:30:31.180
no oftentimes luck plays a big role in first that these guys became olympic athletes and then second
00:30:37.180
that they they you know got the gold medal instead of the silver medal talk about that so i use olympic
00:30:43.140
athletes and expertise as sort of this example of as we were saying before it's like in order to reach
00:30:49.120
that huge kind of success you know whether it's like you know for a startup or a musician or something
00:30:53.660
those like super great heights it's not just a matter of fact of like one thing going right it's that
00:30:59.040
absolutely every single thing has to go right so for olympic athletes for example if you look at them
00:31:04.760
they happen to be people who fell in love with the sport that they happen to be genetically suited to
00:31:11.300
when they were young enough and then they got great coaching so that by the time they you know
00:31:17.420
reached their physiological peak in their early 20s their skill set was also you know world class
00:31:23.200
um you know and then along the way they were just mentally tough and they really believed in their
00:31:27.940
ability to continue getting better you know they have no serious setbacks or illnesses or injuries
00:31:32.960
and then also you know when you look at game day you know as we were saying before the later on you go
00:31:39.420
during the day like the more likely you are to be graded higher you know so even on game day timing can
00:31:44.840
play a huge role and then on game day also because you're also dealing with these like
00:31:49.040
the effects or the the difference between like silver and gold metal can just be you know
00:31:55.040
such a fraction of a second so everything on game day also has to go perfectly as well
00:31:59.400
it's like absolutely every single thing i think of it's like this race and all these different
00:32:03.900
hurdles so it's like you have to clear every single hurdle and not all of them are entirely up to you
00:32:09.520
no right so like what can we take away from these guys like this average joe's right
00:32:14.320
who want to tap into that same thing that sort of luck thread that these guys tapped into what
00:32:19.860
can we learn from them well i think part of it is honestly like just hanging out with more positive
00:32:26.100
people as i was actually just listening to the interview i did with the sociologist who studied
00:32:31.320
coaching and athletes at all different levels and he said that so much of it comes out of these group
00:32:35.560
settings right like people they don't just kind of magically think like oh i'm going to be an
00:32:39.820
olympic athlete it's that they hang out with other people who are really positive and just inspire
00:32:43.460
them to work harder instead of you know these olympic athletes you know most likely their best
00:32:48.540
friends are not the guys who are saying like oh god you're going to the gym come on just you know
00:32:52.660
come over let's play a game so one of it is group settings and just making sure you you know hang out
00:32:57.140
with people that you admire and want to be like and then also just this steadfast belief in your ability
00:33:03.080
to just get better just get a little bit better and have the mental resourcefulness to believe that
00:33:09.260
no you can do this like you know whatever is in your control you can kind of make that happen you
00:33:15.500
know i have this poster on my wall my office i'm looking right now it says you can have results or
00:33:20.140
excuses but not both and that is entirely true i think the more excuses you make like oh i can't do
00:33:25.980
this the more you just set yourself up for failure for just not getting better and i always think like
00:33:31.620
you know what however hard i think i have it there's someone out there who has had it even harder
00:33:37.320
and they've gone even further than me no for sure i think another takeaway i got from it as well is
00:33:43.100
like find the thing that suits you right exactly that was one of the things glad you brought that up
00:33:50.020
that's pretty much the whole point of the chapter olympic athletes are also they just have had the
00:33:55.220
luck of finding something that they genuinely love so i think when you find something that you genuinely
00:34:00.620
love and then you focus on how good it feels to get better i think people often mistake you know
00:34:05.640
their insane dedication is like oh how can they do that to themselves 10 hours a day
00:34:09.280
but actually you know in talking to them they it does not feel like work to them at all and that
00:34:15.060
is so important because number one it decreases people's likelihood of burning out because they
00:34:20.340
just genuinely love it and then you know i have a story in there about like tony hawk i mean after he
00:34:26.760
and like his friend won some you know major skateboarding competition you know they celebrated for a little
00:34:31.520
bit but then like you know half an hour later they were out in the back practicing new moves because
00:34:37.400
they just they loved it so much that is something that they would have done in their free time
00:34:42.460
anyways because they loved it so much and then when you look at just the cumulative effect of all that
00:34:47.820
practice that adds up so much no it does and i think this opens up the idea i think we have in america
00:34:54.940
with this idea like never quit and you keep going and even if it's it's hard but like might the best
00:35:01.880
thing to do might be quit what you're doing because it's just not suited for you and find that thing
00:35:05.860
that is suited for you yeah i think that's one of the really tricky things because you know i'm studying
00:35:11.220
like all these little the impacts of say like good coaching or you know how much people improve over
00:35:17.080
time you know people can be light bloomers you know maybe i'll find their groove you know later on
00:35:23.900
however you don't really know that so there's no it's really tricky because there's no like
00:35:28.840
good rule of thumb for like should you keep doing this thing are you going to get really good
00:35:33.200
or should you just quit but i think a lot of it does just have to do with like what do you really love
00:35:37.880
i guess it depends you know what do you really love what doesn't feel like work and then also like
00:35:41.920
what do you maybe realistically have a better chance of succeeding in so those are kind of a tricky
00:35:47.940
tricky fields to negotiate but i think it's you know somewhere between those two right no yeah that takes
00:35:53.120
some practical wisdom to figure out so another thing too that can increase our luck is just simply
00:35:59.480
thinking that luck is on our side did you find any research that talked about that idea yeah so there's
00:36:06.700
a lot of awesome research in like performance psychology you know people who you know they have
00:36:11.600
positive expectations or you know enhanced expectancies about the future they end up just doing
00:36:18.080
better like across the board there's you know one study people who had some sort of superstitious
00:36:23.600
token when they took a test they actually ended up performing better because they were less anxious
00:36:28.440
they were more confident so people who are even people who are religious and pray and then they
00:36:34.420
believe like god is on their side they also have more confidence and they're able to muster more
00:36:38.500
energy and you know they're they genuinely believe that they can do the thing so they're actually more
00:36:43.800
likely to go out and do the thing and i think that people don't realize how it's one of those things
00:36:49.260
that's it's very simple it's not easy but it's very simple yeah i've got my lucky tokens that i've got
00:36:55.380
my lucky pair of socks yeah and i know there are some coaches who think like oh that's stupid you should
00:36:59.960
be able to you know do that all on your own but i feel like that's ridiculous because if it helps you
00:37:04.860
why not you know why not use that no for sure yeah we had an author on a few weeks ago talking about
00:37:11.060
sports recovery and all these gizmos that have come out in the last few years like cryotherapy
00:37:16.280
and massage rollers and basically the research says it doesn't really do much but like people
00:37:22.020
think it does and it so that as as a result it helps them it's like the placebo effect and like
00:37:26.520
she was saying that's fine like that's okay if going if sitting in a cryo spa you know makes you
00:37:33.000
feel good and helps you recover like makes you feel like you're recovering and helps you perform better
00:37:36.820
do it absolutely 100 like core wager he had this awesome thing on like expectancies and we're
00:37:42.260
talking about this for a very long time it's like you know what like those are real effects and why
00:37:46.260
would you deny yourself the benefit of those effects it makes yeah so you think you're being
00:37:51.180
really logical like no it's it's very you know stupid i'm too you know scientifically minded to you
00:37:57.520
know bring that little rabbit's foot or that little thing that won't help me but if it would help
00:38:02.280
you it's actually like more illogical to not make use of that right so what do you what is all this
00:38:08.040
you mentioned it earlier but how's all this research about you know increasing our luck which is
00:38:12.860
basically trying to you know take in account these human factors that often sway whether something
00:38:19.560
happens to us or not and influencing them but like how's this research influenced you when things
00:38:25.400
don't go your way when you're unlucky this sounds so cheesy and it's one of those things that i've
00:38:30.200
seen so many times like you know cliche posters or like what your grandmother would say but it
00:38:34.880
actually ends up having really you know scientifically valid background is you know use failure as a
00:38:40.440
learning experience and that is it and i think i used to think of you know any kind of failure or
00:38:45.600
setback as just this overall you know marker of my worth or my overall ability but i think if you can
00:38:52.080
kind of remove yourself and look at the situation objectively and look at your part in things
00:38:57.600
and just kind of use that as information to just keep going forward or learn and maybe change your
00:39:03.360
strategy or routine a little bit and go on if that is the most beneficial most beneficial reaction to
00:39:09.380
have even if that whole like learning strategy is just you know what i'm gonna persist i'm gonna you
00:39:14.120
know do this one more time because it really is you know how many times you're gonna get up right
00:39:19.500
to say like what a master is somebody who has failed more times than the novice has even tried
00:39:23.780
right and also just don't take it personally it's like well you know had nothing to do with me
00:39:27.500
the guy saw me and reminded me that i reminded him of his crazy uncle that's why i didn't get the job
00:39:32.240
absolutely like yeah it had nothing to do with me but also like however i can like maximize my
00:39:37.100
desirability as a candidate you know however what this guy says that doesn't mean i'm bad
00:39:41.820
right so is that that luck paradox so you're like you know believing in luck can own
00:39:46.000
unmotivate you really the the upside of not believing in luck is it motivates you right
00:39:51.780
you have you have you have sense of control but the upside of also like also understanding that
00:39:56.060
luck plays a role is like when things don't go your way you can be like okay i did everything i
00:40:00.440
could this is a learning point i'm going to keep moving forward despite that one yes absolutely
00:40:06.300
it is it's that luck paradox right so it's like it doesn't have anything to do with you because
00:40:10.740
it might have been the shirt you're wearing however right once you bring to the table you can
00:40:14.920
learn and be persistent and keep going well carla it's been a great conversation where can people
00:40:20.000
go to learn more about the book and your work thank you so much for having me they can go to
00:40:23.260
my website it's kstar.com k-s-t-a-r-r.com awesome well carla star thanks so much time it's been a
00:40:28.960
pleasure thank you so much for having me it's been great my guest today was carla star she is the
00:40:33.020
author of the book can you learn to be lucky to be on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere you can
00:40:37.580
find more information about her work and the book at her website kstar that's star with two r's
00:40:42.260
kstar.com also check out our show notes at aom.is slash lucky you can find links to resources
00:40:47.560
we can delve deeper into the topic well that wraps up another edition of the a1 podcast check
00:41:04.540
out our website at art of manliness.com where you see our podcast archives got over 480 there
00:41:09.080
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00:41:28.420
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