The Art of Manliness - #494： The Inspiring Story of One of WWII's Greatest Tank Gunners

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast recently i

00:00:19.080 participated in the aon podcast first live audience interview took place at magic city

00:00:23.700 books here in tulsa oklahoma back in march and joining me for the interview was two-time past

00:00:27.620 guest adam makos makos is the author of a higher call and devotion and was here in tulsa to discuss

00:00:32.460 his most recent book spearhead an american tank gunner his enemy in a collision of lies in world

00:00:37.680 war ii spearhead follows the story of clarence smoyer a quiet kid from pennsylvania coal country

00:00:42.000 becomes one of the greatest tank gunners in world war ii history and how his life crossed paths with

00:00:45.940 enemy tanker gustav schaefer during the battle of cologne adam shares how he became interested in

00:00:50.140 world war ii history as a kid and how he found clarence's story he then gives us an engaging

00:00:53.680 rundown of tank warfare world war ii and walks us through clarence's hero's journey and the epic

00:00:58.040 battles he faced with calm commitment and a love for his fellow team of tankers we end our conversation

00:01:02.240 discussing what happened when clarence and gustav recently met up as old men and the lessons adam

00:01:06.280 thinks members of the social media age can take from the veterans of the big one after the show's

00:01:10.340 over check out our show notes at aom.is spearhead adam come on up we're going to bring the show the

00:01:26.720 man of the hour here we'll do an introduction with adam so give you a background with my connection

00:01:32.040 with adam with the podcast this is going to be my third time i've interviewed adam about his work

00:01:36.360 he's a phenomenal guy one of the things that drew me to adam is his affection and his tenderness and

00:01:42.760 his dedication to ensuring these stories of the greatest generation stay stay alive stay with us

00:01:50.020 and also what drew me to him is he's a young guy he's my age and he has that dedication to keeping

00:01:57.020 these stories alive and that's that's not too something you see too common we'll talk about how

00:02:01.100 we got started becoming one of the premier world war ii historians at such a young age so adam

00:02:07.180 thanks again for doing this really appreciate it this is i'm really excited about this so for those

00:02:13.300 who are i know our podcast listeners are familiar with your backstory but for those who are here are

00:02:18.480 not how did you get started writing new york times best-selling books about world war ii because

00:02:25.580 most world war ii historians they're baby boomers right they write their first book maybe in their 30s

00:02:31.100 get their stride in their 40s right their big one in their 50s you're 38 this is your third book

00:02:39.120 you know big book already in new york times bestseller number four this week first one was a higher call

00:02:44.440 how did this happen how did you get started so young at doing this well brett uh i always say i owe

00:02:49.700 it to my grandfathers they were the ones who made it all possible first i get i want to just say thank

00:02:57.620 you to you for being such a great friend over the years but really it's in this field it's really

00:03:03.980 cool to find an ally who who appreciates what you do because a lot of times growing up my peers in

00:03:10.500 middle school and high school i would talk to them about the flying tigers or about the b-17s bombing

00:03:17.100 germany and they just kind of look at me like i was speaking greek and so we've seen a renaissance in

00:03:21.840 the last maybe 15 years of people coming to appreciate our world war ii veterans and it helps

00:03:29.000 when there's movies like saving private ryan it helps when there's video games like call of duty

00:03:32.740 everything contributes toward that but at the same time the art of manliness is it's a culture that

00:03:39.760 celebrates an old culture and the values of the 40s and 50s and 60s and an era when things were

00:03:47.820 i don't know i want to say i don't want to say simpler but what i want to say is i appreciate

00:03:52.920 having your support from the beginning it's great to be at magic city books you know i've heard about

00:03:58.040 this bookstore for a long time i mean i live out in colorado these days and this is a nationally known

00:04:03.360 store and uh tulsa i'm coming to know it's a beautiful gem it's a hidden gem i probably shouldn't

00:04:09.420 tell people to move here but they should move here because it's a tremendous tremendous city with

00:04:13.620 good people let's get into the world war ii stuff let's get into the world war ii stuff so let's talk

00:04:17.220 about this uh obviously you've written three books but this wasn't your start with world war

00:04:22.480 ii history you actually got started with this when you like you said in middle school in high school

00:04:27.080 with the thing called valor magazine so tell us about valor magazine how this segued into writing

00:04:32.320 these books sure my my grandfathers got me started when i was really young they would tell me their war

00:04:37.000 stories one had been on b-17s in the pacific one was a marine set to invade japan and they used to

00:04:43.400 show me their photo albums take me to air museums we'd watch war movies together it was interesting

00:04:48.640 because neither of them had seen heavy combat in the war so to them the heroes like john basilone

00:04:54.580 and joe foss and these world war ii heroes gabby gabreski were their heroes and so they became my

00:05:00.480 heroes i was very lucky i didn't have grandfathers that had fought on guadalcanal or a place like that

00:05:05.280 and so growing up i wanted to share that appreciation for these heroes and the way i found

00:05:11.480 it was on a rainy day had my first computer it had this publishing software on it make your own

00:05:16.940 newsletter my brother best friend and myself we said what do we make our little publication about

00:05:21.020 we're going to be journalists and uh what we decided was not race cars not baseball players

00:05:26.580 veterans stories so we started interviewing our grandfathers the men in our neighborhood

00:05:30.160 next thing it was in our cities and it became a magazine and now here we are 20 years later

00:05:35.100 publishing books and what are these you know world war ii vets think when this you know lanky

00:05:39.920 middle schooler said hey i want to do a story about you i mean were they pretty receptive to it or

00:05:45.440 they kind of like what is going on here they really were receptive because i think it was just rare to

00:05:50.680 see young people caring about them and so we had patrons i almost say they're like patron saints

00:05:56.220 dick winters of the band of brothers leader of the unit you know he lived in hershey i lived in

00:06:00.900 central pennsylvania and i would go sit down with him and talk with him and and this was a guy who

00:06:05.520 would shut the door to most adults he would say i'm not home i can't sign your autographs i can't

00:06:09.420 write letters to you because he was his public figure but he said i'll let you in and so from the

00:06:14.560 guys at the top like him i got a letter from bob dole the other day george herbert walker bush whether

00:06:19.480 you're talking about the highest of heroes or the guy who was the local mailman who flew b-24s

00:06:24.740 they opened the door and they said let's talk and how did your work with valor magazine with

00:06:29.940 your brother how did that transition to writing these big books these epic you know sweeps of

00:06:34.960 epic stories that you found well the magazine work was the training grounds and the way i learned to

00:06:41.240 write a lot of people ask you know did you take english classes in college no i studied marketing that

00:06:45.960 was my backup because i kind of never thought that this would happen you know i hoped it would but that

00:06:50.920 was a backup plan go work for a marketing firm somewhere and the way i learned to write was i

00:06:56.300 would write these stories on the weekend i'd bring them into my english teacher in high school and he

00:07:00.880 would just cover these things in red pen adam you know you should write you know wood versus should

00:07:05.400 you should write shall versus this you know and and he just ripped my work to pieces every single time

00:07:11.220 and i tried to get better learning through mistakes and i think that's the way a lot of life is i found

00:07:16.780 failure because i've had books that didn't succeed like i thought failure can either break you or you

00:07:22.960 take the lessons from it and you come back stronger and that's what we just did with spearhead

00:07:26.240 so let's talk about your first book a higher call how how old were you when that came out because that

00:07:31.500 was the thing that put you on the map yeah 32 years old when the higher call came out it went right

00:07:37.920 to the top of the bestseller list i was very lucky because franz and charlie lived an incredible life

00:07:42.980 i mean again it's the story of the american bomber limping home over germany first mission for the

00:07:49.060 crew 21 year old pilot at the controls charlie brown is just sweating trying to get his crew back to

00:07:54.300 england he flies over an airfield german fighter pilot franz stiegler takes off needs one more kill

00:07:59.380 and he's going to get the knights cross and instead he decides to spare this bomber when he sees it's

00:08:04.200 defenseless i mean think how good that story is i mean it sometimes the writer is important but

00:08:10.400 sometimes the meat the story is what carries it and through all your one thing i've noticed

00:08:15.560 i've noticed a unifying ribbon or thread through all your books correct me if i'm wrong but what do

00:08:21.180 you think is the unifying theme through all the books like how do you decide you've talked to all

00:08:25.740 these veterans and they all have amazing stories but how do you decide this story this this needs we

00:08:31.380 need to dedicate an entire book to this well there's always these pieces you look for and it has to have

00:08:36.740 a deeper message a higher call was about two men from different sides who became brothers

00:08:42.240 franz and charlie devotion was about tom hunter and jesse brown two men from different worlds one black

00:08:48.080 one white who became wingmen i love those stories where there's humanity in the midst of war i don't

00:08:54.300 want to write about the world war ii veteran who got the medal of honor for killing 200 germans and

00:09:00.020 that's what he did he saved his friends i want to write about the times when humanity triumphed and if i can

00:09:06.060 find those stories when it's about more than just the body count when it's just more than the planes

00:09:10.480 that are shot down it's more than the records when it's about people changing and people realizing that

00:09:16.940 growing as as heroes i love to watch somebody grow into a hero and i love to watch warriors put down

00:09:22.980 their swords mostly as old men and come together and say you know we've got to steer humanity in a

00:09:29.840 different direction if we can let's talk about your latest book spearhead right here already number

00:09:35.100 four new york times bestseller last night at dinner at the tavern you told me you got an email fourth

00:09:39.580 print run which is phenomenal when did it come out came out february 19th so barely two weeks okay so

00:09:46.800 it's phenomenal i mean it's it's fantastic big success already how did you find the story about

00:09:52.800 clarence and his uh i mean because he's i would say one of the probably one of the best gunners in

00:09:59.060 world war ii history the way you describe them how did you find this story i never thought lightning

00:10:03.320 would strike twice and this story is on level with a higher call i got a tip from a college buddy he

00:10:10.680 said there's a world war ii hero living in allentown pennsylvania nobody knows it the only

00:10:15.660 reason my buddy knew it was because when he was a kid he did his eagle scout project and he went door

00:10:19.900 to door interviewing veterans to try to preserve their stories that was his project so he knew this

00:10:24.320 guy was there he found him the his this veteran's neighbors didn't know he was there his kids didn't

00:10:29.480 know what he had done in the war he was a mystery but back in world war ii he was famous he was known

00:10:34.540 as the hero of cologne he was known as one of our tank aces for destroying five german tanks he was

00:10:40.160 this 21 year old corporal who led the u.s army into the biggest battle of the european war the biggest

00:10:45.920 urban battle the city of cologne so he had a remarkable hero i knocked on his door and clarence

00:10:51.480 moyer he answered and he invited me inside and sat down at the table and the more he told me about his

00:10:57.560 war experience the more i knew those pieces were there to make a book is that how like most of

00:11:02.300 these stories like this kind of fall into your lap or do they i mean do the stories find you or do you

00:11:06.140 have to proactively go find the stories it's a little bit of both and i don't want to get preachy but

00:11:10.780 i do feel that there's a bigger purpose at work because i can't tell you how many times i've seen

00:11:15.580 a story and i've chased it oh i'm going to go up to this veterans reunion i'm going to talk to everyone

00:11:19.640 i can and then i find out the heroes are all gone or or it falls apart or the guys are tired of

00:11:25.460 talking i've had more books fall apart than have succeeded and that's the greatest thing ever because

00:11:30.180 i look at the ones that have fallen apart they weren't meant to be the ones that do work you know

00:11:34.900 they say don't beat down the doors walk through doors that are open to you and so my best books

00:11:39.680 have felt inspired by something bigger than me all right so before we get into clarence's story

00:11:45.740 and also some of the other characters in the book let's do a little background about tank warfare

00:11:50.320 and world war ii because i'll be honest before i read spearhead i didn't really know much about

00:11:54.420 tank warfare most of the world war ii stuff when you read it or you watch the movies it's always

00:11:58.720 about the planes right it's uh everyone like you watch the movies everyone would sign up to be a fly

00:12:04.380 boy and you see rosie the riveter working on a b-52 bomber so tanks never really captured my

00:12:11.120 imagination but after this book i was like this is amazing so what was the role of the tank for the

00:12:17.380 americans in world war ii well the role of the tank i was surprised because this was an education for

00:12:21.780 me too i had always written the aviation stuff and i was surprised to find i always thought our

00:12:26.980 shock troops were the 82nd airborne 101st a lot of times they were put on the front lines they were

00:12:31.780 dropped behind the lines and then they would hold out but who was really responsible for cutting through

00:12:36.360 the german lines for hammering their way through it was these armor divisions there were two heavy

00:12:41.780 armor divisions one was the second armor division hell on wheels that fought in sicily and then up into

00:12:46.920 normandy the other was the third armor division spearhead now i'd never heard of the spearhead

00:12:51.620 division i'd heard of those other great ones but this was a division that lost more tanks than any

00:12:56.440 other division in world war ii american it had lost more men than the 101st or the 82nd airborne

00:13:02.240 this was an unsung division that had actually seen incredible combat the reason they weren't so well

00:13:08.520 known is because this armor division would pierce through the enemy lines and they'd keep running

00:13:12.940 they were specialists at deep drives behind the lines just sowing mayhem and there's stories of

00:13:19.040 them being deep behind german lines and german soldiers are walking down the street and next thing

00:13:23.520 you know they just dropped their rifles when they see this armored convoy race by but the unit was

00:13:29.080 moving in radio silence a lot so they weren't sending dispatches back the journalists weren't they

00:13:35.120 were a secretive unit so patton's third army everybody knew where patton's third army was everybody

00:13:39.420 knew what patton was doing with his with his ivory pistols but the third armored division this heavy

00:13:45.520 armored division was running silent and for most of world war ii what was the the primary tank that

00:13:50.820 the americans used the sherman we might recognize it from the movie fury it's the only tank movie you can

00:13:56.280 really point to the sherman was a great tank in 1942 we sent it into africa with the british first

00:14:03.540 they loved it it was knocking out tanks at el alamein and the trouble was the sherman stayed the

00:14:09.540 same 42 43 44 and we're sending them into normandy and we've got the same 75 millimeter shermans going

00:14:15.560 into the hedgerows and suddenly they run into this german tank the panther and then they run into this

00:14:20.460 tiger tank and we realized that the germans had been up armoring their tanks up gunning their tanks

00:14:26.100 and ours were staying the same what was going on why why was that because i from my understanding

00:14:30.560 you know eisenhower and patton even as world war one soldiers vet you know just right out of world

00:14:36.600 or one they they saw that the future of warfare was tank warfare and that they wrote all i remember

00:14:41.360 they wrote all these papers saying we got to upgrade our tank war you know the tank battalions

00:14:45.160 and all those things and they got laughed at and they told them you know people their uppers you

00:14:49.460 know the people above them said don't talk about this anymore so why were the americans so reluctant

00:14:53.820 to upgrade the tanks even though they become such a vital part of the war effort well it was part of

00:14:58.960 the proximity where the war was fought we had to ship everything over to europe we weren't

00:15:03.580 manufacturing our tanks in england or france or anywhere so we had to ship everything you wanted

00:15:07.980 these medium tanks lighter ones are even better you don't want to be loading up your tank your troop

00:15:13.240 transports with heavy tanks and the sherman worked for patent i mean it was reliable it was fast it could

00:15:19.720 move and make these deep drives so they were they were seeing the strategic use of it we'll take eight

00:15:25.800 sherman's to tackle one panther okay we're all right with that now the crews who had to do that

00:15:30.620 they hated it i mean suddenly they're being asked to hold their fire and try to get around the sides or the

00:15:35.600 back of the enemy that was considered like a death sentence but from a strategic level yeah the sherman

00:15:40.640 tank worked fine the germans at the end of the war even had a saying they would say one of our tank

00:15:47.060 is better than 10 of yours but you always bring 11

00:15:50.600 so let's talk about the tank crew like how many men were were to a tank what did that look like

00:15:59.460 sherman tank had five men in fact the german tanks had five you had your gunner and you had your

00:16:04.400 loader you had your commander that's the turret crew then you usually had a driver and a bow gunner

00:16:09.520 bow gunner and the german tanks was also the radio man so you have five guys and in clarence's case

00:16:14.140 this was his family you know he used to say we're we're a family locked in a sardine can

00:16:19.660 and they were his best buddies now when i met clarence he had these thick glasses and he's this

00:16:25.760 robust and he was just this gentle guy and he would sit down in the chair and tell these stories

00:16:30.060 and i wondered how could this guy be possibly america's most lethal tank gunner and i found out

00:16:35.740 he did it because he loved his buddies he knew that if he missed someone was going to die

00:16:41.400 statistically when a sherman tank was hit one man was going to come out dead another was going

00:16:46.860 to come out in pieces wounded and he knew each time that was roulette wheel was going to spin

00:16:52.480 if he didn't shoot first shoot straight and not miss so he was a great gunner not because he wanted

00:16:57.800 to kill more of the enemy than anyone else he was a great gunner because he cared about keeping his

00:17:03.560 buddies alive so you mentioned the panther and the tiger were probably superior there were superior

00:17:08.580 tanks to the sherman what were the limitations of the sherman like why why did it become why did

00:17:15.040 so many people die when they were you got assigned to a sherman well one of the reasons is well the

00:17:20.960 armor the germans just built these bigger guns and so their 75 millimeter gun on the panther you know

00:17:26.840 it was almost twice the size of our shell packed full of powder it was called a super velocity gun

00:17:31.460 and it could literally shoot through one sherman and into a second that had happened in normandy and in

00:17:37.200 the battle of the bulge there were instances where a sherman was parked on one side of a house

00:17:40.920 a panther on the other side of the house would put that shell through both walls of the house and

00:17:45.960 into the tank and knock it out so the trouble really was um they just kept building their armor and

00:17:52.060 building their guns and we kept ours the same so it was 1942 technology fighting a 1944-45 war

00:17:58.140 and you you talk about in the books there was actually journals that went out to europe and they

00:18:02.540 interviewed people guys on the sherman tanks and they talked about complaining about these things

00:18:07.820 are under armored and like we're actually putting on our own armor on the tanks and reminded me a lot

00:18:12.560 of what was going on during the afghanistan iraq wars with the humvees where you read these stories

00:18:17.700 you hear these stories of soldiers having to put body armor and body plates on the humvees because it

00:18:21.920 just wasn't enough to withstand the ieds so tell us about like that i thought that was really interesting

00:18:27.320 it was amazing coming out of the battle of the bulge we lost so many tanks we were borrowing

00:18:31.140 them from the british in order to go into germany and the losses were so heavy and they here's what

00:18:38.420 some of the guys were saying you know there are stars and stripes reporter caught up with some of

00:18:42.560 them and he wrote an article called shells bounce off tigers veteran u.s tank men say and this is what

00:18:48.280 they said a tank commander said we're just out tanked and out gun that's all we don't mind the lack of

00:18:52.560 armor on our tanks as much as lack of firepower but it's mighty aggravating to let fly with everything

00:18:57.060 you've got and just have the shells bounce off the front of the jerry tanks now his bow gunner

00:19:02.020 concurred with him he said don't misunderstand us all we want is a better gun we'll be ready to tackle

00:19:05.860 any of them their company commander our morale would be a lot better if there weren't so many

00:19:09.860 cock and bull stories in the papers about how our tanks are world beaters we lose four or five tanks

00:19:14.640 and then the boys on the busted up tanks have the guts to go out and do it again and so it was a lot

00:19:20.920 about the courage of the individual tanker that kept them going but also the men took precautions

00:19:25.200 in Patton's army they were cutting the armor off and knocked out german tanks and welding it to the

00:19:30.420 front of their shermans in other armies they were taking concrete and making three or four inches of

00:19:37.260 concrete armor on the front of a sherman others were putting baskets filled with sandbags steel

00:19:42.780 baskets around the tanks it was just like iraq just like the striker vehicles just like the humvees

00:19:47.860 being armored in the field to try to get our guys through so the sherman was the main tank for most of

00:19:53.500 the war but they introduced a new tank finally the pershing how did the pershing change the game

00:19:59.280 this was exciting because i had never heard of the pershing before this i knew it existed in the

00:20:03.920 korean war but its world war ii use was a mystery well clarence was one of the pershing gunners what

00:20:10.240 happened was the army decided when they read those articles like we just quoted in stars and stripes

00:20:15.040 eisenhower and the brass back home there was an uproar you know the people in the states were saying

00:20:20.360 wait a second i thought our boys had the best of everything and so they decided to ship these new

00:20:24.560 tanks over that were coming right off the assembly line the first 20 pershings they shipped right to

00:20:29.540 europe untested the next 20 pershings they shipped to fort knox they would test them there so clarence

00:20:35.700 moyer got one of these 20 new super tanks and he it was his job to test it on the field of battle

00:20:43.280 it had a 90 millimeter gun it was lower and wider it was like the german tanks lower profile it almost

00:20:49.840 looked like a german tank and it had an automatic transmission so they could back out of a bad

00:20:54.600 situation it was it was state-of-the-art battlefield equipment the downside to it was when clarence and

00:21:01.000 his buddies are celebrating this tank that is going to bring them through the war their commander comes

00:21:05.380 up he says there's one problem you are leading every attack now best tank goes forward and at first

00:21:10.960 that was hard for clarence to stomach okay let's get into clarence story now what point in the war do you

00:21:16.120 pick up with clarence and his crew well we meet clarence in in this book i don't teach you about

00:21:24.620 where he came from and we don't go into how he grew up and the lessons he learned from his grandpa on his

00:21:29.380 knee we go right into the battle so we meet clarence when he's reloading his tank outside of

00:21:35.680 mons belgium it's during the breakout from france we're driving the germans out of france

00:21:40.560 three months after d-day and clarence is getting ready because there's a german army coming at him

00:21:46.700 and he's a new gunner clarence at first had this hesitation to become a gunner again he was this

00:21:51.580 gentle giant he was happy being a loader he just like shoveling the shells in the breach letting

00:21:55.360 somebody else pull the trigger but they discovered that he had a hidden talent back during the the

00:22:01.060 training up for for the france the army had taken their unit to the seacoast of england and they set

00:22:08.320 these targets on the dunes about a thousand yards away and the gunners were blasting away at him and

00:22:12.620 then they said wait a second what if our gunners get killed the loaders need to know how to shoot

00:22:16.560 so they all switched seats and they had a competition the loaders were all going to shoot at these

00:22:20.820 thousand yard targets and clarence hit it eight times in a row nobody else did and that night his

00:22:25.840 crew got a magnum of scotch and that was their reward and his commander paul faircloth said as soon as

00:22:31.680 we uh have a chance to change up the crew you're going to be our gunner and for clarence that was the

00:22:36.520 worst praise he could have ever gotten he didn't want to pull the trigger but he had this innate

00:22:40.900 ability and didn't want to let his buddies down it was that simple so did he decide like did he when

00:22:45.940 he signed up did he sign up for the army did or did he get drafted he was drafted he's the coolest

00:22:50.460 hero he's a corporal the whole story he's 21 years old he got drafted he got dragged into it and the army

00:22:57.680 saw that he had taken a class in engine maintenance after high school at a local airport and they said oh great

00:23:05.340 you've got some experience you're going in the mechanized forces and so so that was it but he grew

00:23:09.820 up impoverished clarence used to at night go around when other kids were going to baseball games or football

00:23:15.120 games while other kids were going to the soda fountain he would take candy bars hershey bars and go door to

00:23:20.920 door selling them to help raise money for his family because his father was a ccc worker his mother was a

00:23:26.760 housekeeper they were poor in a poor time and that's where he developed that protective nature i have to take care of

00:23:32.940 my family because no one's going to take care of us how old was he when he got drafted he was probably

00:23:37.860 about 19 wow so like at this point in the story how old he's like 21 21 when he hits hits battle yeah i

00:23:44.360 always whenever i read these world war ii or even world war one stories you forget how young these guys

00:23:49.480 were because when you watch the movies like the actors are always in their 30s or 40s or if you watch

00:23:54.440 the john wayne movies like john wayne's like 50 yeah yeah he's timeless right um but these these were

00:24:01.140 kids i mean these were just like they're right out of high school i feel like no war movie has ever

00:24:05.440 made it right i mean if you saw fury brad pitt is probably you know 45 years old and you've got

00:24:11.040 michael pena probably same age you've got john barenthal you've got shia labeouf you've got only

00:24:17.340 the only guy who actually fits the cast is logan learman and even he's probably older than they were so

00:24:22.020 you got to imagine a crew full logan learman's uh all 19 20 years old it's it's quite stunning really

00:24:28.440 we're gonna take a quick break for your word from our sponsors and now back to the show so let's

00:24:34.160 talk about this point sort of a turning point in the story with clarence so he was a gunner having

00:24:39.880 a lot of success they get to the battle of the bulge they were part of that how how was the battle

00:24:44.520 of the bulge like a turning point for this story here well it's a turning point because in the battle

00:24:49.860 of bulge we won but in some ways we lost uh we stopped the germans clarence and his guys were at

00:24:55.720 the deepest part in the bulge they held the line you know they they they were enough of a buffer

00:25:01.340 but they were still unable to go against these panthers that would come marauding down the road

00:25:05.840 so we watched tank after tank in the bulge get knocked out with our guys simply overwhelming them

00:25:11.040 with numbers we weren't really beating them one to one so we came out of the bulge everybody was

00:25:16.480 kind of discontent fearful because you know we won the battle but now we had to go into the third

00:25:21.840 reich and it was going to be even worse and that's how he got the purging february 1945 he test fires

00:25:27.740 it for the first time the army everybody behind him suddenly believes they have their savior they

00:25:32.980 have the guy who's going to lead them into the biggest battle of the war the city of cologne

00:25:37.040 so let's talk about another character you follow throughout the book this is a german

00:25:41.260 a young german tanker named gustav tell us about gustav and how and then how we'll talk about how

00:25:47.460 gustav and clarence's clarence crossed paths well we follow a german in this one and another one of

00:25:53.140 those one in a million stories that i'd have a german to talk about his name is gustav schaefer he grew

00:25:58.180 up on a farm in northern germany impoverished just like clarence a lot of people were in the great

00:26:03.280 depression he used to work sun up to sun down and sometimes his family would work the fields by the

00:26:08.000 light of the moon harvesting rye and they had no radio they had no lights his hobby was riding his bike

00:26:15.800 20 miles to the railroad tracks to watch the trains go by on the hamburg to bremen line and so that was

00:26:21.380 his dream to be a locomotive conductor and it was really cool to see gustav again he's this little

00:26:25.600 18 year old tank radio operator bow gunner but he was just a kid little blonde haired kid barely five

00:26:32.100 foot and his father gets drafted and sent to the eastern front the next thing they call gustav and

00:26:37.900 they take one look at him and they know he's going in the tanks but his family had this really cool

00:26:42.700 tradition they each german farm got a pow a russian captured early in the war because there was a

00:26:49.400 manpower shortage and so something that to me told told me that gustav was a worthy character was the

00:26:56.820 way he and his family treated this russian this russian would go out and work the fields all day

00:27:00.000 right alongside of him and at night there was a rule before the authorities would come and bring the

00:27:04.980 russian back to the pow camp where he was to spend the night the farm family was supposed to feed him

00:27:09.800 but they were not allowed to feed him at the same table that they ate at he had to sit in the corner

00:27:14.140 at his own table they couldn't break bread together literally and gustav and his mother concocted this

00:27:20.580 plan where they set up a table in the corner they would set the cutlery there they put food on the

00:27:26.420 plate but then the russian would eat at the table with them that was a in case that knock came at the

00:27:31.620 door and when the knock came the russian would run over and act like he was sitting there all along

00:27:34.840 but they said he did the same work as us he should be treated the same as us didn't matter if he was the

00:27:39.580 enemy a year earlier throughout the story it seemed like the way you described gustav he was kind of

00:27:44.600 reluctant he's a reluctant fighter like like clarence how how did he feel about fighting for

00:27:49.480 the nazis what was i mean did he believe in the cause or was just one of those things he just got

00:27:53.580 drafted into and he had to do it it would be probably the most terrible situation to be in that

00:27:59.220 in his shoes at that time because stalingrad had had been lost so they lost a massive army there

00:28:06.700 africa had fallen sicily had already been invaded the allies were in italy there was no doubt that

00:28:13.220 the storm was coming and it was going to crush his country gustav though felt this duty the same duty

00:28:18.820 he felt to his farm the reason he never went became a locomotive conductor he was just a farm kid

00:28:23.860 he felt this duty to his family it was like this storm is coming from both directions we're going to

00:28:30.400 get crushed and what is my job now is my job to protest is my job to hide where's my job to go out

00:28:36.780 and fight as long as i can to keep the misery away from my people as long as i can and so he's fighting

00:28:42.720 under the wrong flag for for the bad guys and yet at the same time in his mind he's keeping the pain

00:28:50.520 away from his family that's impending it all goes back to family that idea you're you're not you're

00:28:54.780 fighting for not your country you're fighting for your family whether it's your literal family in

00:28:58.140 gustav's case or for clarence the guys that he rode in the tank with exactly and that's what makes

00:29:03.060 these guys so interesting to root for because you don't want gustav to die you want him to get

00:29:08.140 through these battles and we pick him up where he's in a panther tank in luxembourg and an american

00:29:12.780 army is closing in on him and we follow his first battle we follow when he loses his panther tank and

00:29:18.120 then he gets these orders you have to go out at night and destroy your tank because your tank didn't

00:29:22.320 burn if the americans take that tank they're going to turn it around against us they're going to use

00:29:26.000 its technology and so we get to watch this 18 year old kid creeping through the moonlit fields just

00:29:30.960 like when he was a kid he used to work in the fields now he's creeping through with a satchel

00:29:34.860 charge and he's got to sneak up through american lines to go destroy his own panther tank and he

00:29:40.300 didn't have a chance to say no this is one of those you go or we're going to shoot you and so you see

00:29:45.260 that this kid is thrown in a cauldron pretty quickly so let's talk about the moment when clarence and

00:29:50.460 gustav cross paths at this epic battle the battle of cologne which you mentioned last night today

00:29:56.920 is the 75th anniversary of that battle today is uh almost next year will be 75th this is 74th

00:30:03.440 and again it largest urban battle of the war the battle of the bulge was the largest um

00:30:07.800 in europe largest urban battle in europe is cologne and clarence is leading the army in

00:30:14.320 they had to choose what tank is going to lead us through the gates well it's a persian

00:30:18.540 it's the best tank and clarence by then had accepted his role he put it to me he said

00:30:22.520 we have the biggest gun we belong out in front it was just that simple for him so he leads the way

00:30:28.000 through and an army cameraman follows him every step of the way they want to show the folks on the

00:30:32.700 home front we're going to take germany we're going to end this war the goal was to capture the bridge

00:30:36.700 over the rhine but the germans blew up that bridge on the second day of the battle we knew we weren't

00:30:41.120 going to take the bridge but we had to still take cologne it was known as the fortress city

00:30:45.480 because hitler had ordered it fortified and to be a tank gunner leading the way in the cologne

00:30:50.540 pretty nightmarish because you don't have to just look left and right you have to look up there's

00:30:56.520 german soldiers with molotov cocktails you have to look down german guns dug in at basement level

00:31:02.360 cannons 88s that you could drive in front of and boom you're gone you had to worry about german soldiers

00:31:07.720 with panzer faust coming out of the doorway to your left or your right and a panzer faust could poke a

00:31:12.420 hole into that pershing tank and all that hot molten metal is going to bounce around it's going

00:31:16.300 to turn you to to shreds you also had to worry about turning the wrong corner and running into

00:31:22.280 a german tank like gustav's and so it was a nightmare city block by block and it was fought

00:31:28.360 with the armored infantry these guys who were called does like doe boys and they would clear

00:31:32.560 to clarence's left and right but there were times when the does even had to drop back and say

00:31:36.940 go forward alone because there's a german tank out there so clarence is there he's driving and

00:31:43.600 this cameraman's following him and he has this epic showdown a duel it's a the pershing versus a panther

00:31:50.240 how did that what happened there what was the outcome of that well the pershing versus panther

00:31:54.580 duel almost didn't happen because what happened was on his way through the city on the second day march

00:31:59.260 6th 74 years ago right today clarence was at an intersection and he caught sight of a german tank

00:32:06.320 nosing forward into the intersection then pulling back really fast he couldn't even get his gun on it

00:32:10.160 that was gustav's tank and gustav's commander saw this funny looking american tank at the end of the

00:32:15.800 street and he didn't know what to do so they were hiding behind a building clarence knows there's this

00:32:20.960 german tank there so they start trading gunfire they're just searching for each other he's waiting

00:32:25.040 to see a ricochet okay there i hit him and he's just firing with the machine guns and then he gets this

00:32:29.920 bright idea i'm going to shoot through the building just like they used to do to us i'm going to shoot

00:32:35.160 through the building so he starts shooting looking for gustav's tank and he notices the building is

00:32:39.120 crumbling colon had been hit by so many airstrikes it was full of rubble five shots later clarence

00:32:45.880 brought the building down on gustav's tank and he knocked out the tank the gun was literally knocked

00:32:51.060 off its ring it couldn't turn the turret couldn't turn and that's when gustav had this epiphany why am

00:32:56.560 i fighting for them i mean why am i doing my duty to the third reich they blew up the bridge

00:33:01.000 there's no escaping this city they sent me here to die and you know what i've done my duty long

00:33:06.740 enough i'm gonna serve myself i have a duty to myself to stay alive and he got out ran away and

00:33:12.540 he would be captured and it would save his life but that duel the first duel held up clarence's tank

00:33:19.060 and somebody else went forward two sherman tanks and the results were quite disastrous they were going

00:33:27.060 to the cathedral they were about to win the battle and an ambush took place tell us about that ambush

00:33:32.580 well it's known as the cathedral duel the cathedral tank duel these two sherman tanks and one of them

00:33:39.800 had this amazing guy we meet his name's carl kelner 26 years old from sheboygan wisconsin he's a tank

00:33:45.920 commander on the sherman and victory is in sight the cathedral is at the end of the street he reaches

00:33:51.180 the cathedral the rhine is right behind it you can't go any further he's won the battle he's the victor

00:33:55.800 cologne and of all the guys he deserved i mean this guy had a silver star from normandy he had

00:34:01.460 been wounded twice hospitalized twice he got a battlefield commission to second lieutenant just

00:34:06.280 two weeks prior and he had a young fiancee cecilia waiting for him back home so of all the guys to

00:34:12.020 get the honors as a conqueror of cologne it was him he's going up the street and suddenly the shot

00:34:17.560 rings out his tank gets hit in the turret right in the gun mantlet one shot second shot cuts through

00:34:23.320 the rubble hits the tank now you see the tank is steaming it's smoking men are already dead inside

00:34:29.140 and the cameraman film the whole thing they film carl kelner coming out they film his gunner coming

00:34:34.860 out his gunner dives head first from the sherman's turret we're talking eight feet from the top head

00:34:41.240 first to the ground because the terror was so much that this german tank had shot him twice maybe it's

00:34:45.940 going to shoot him three times maybe it's going to catch into fire carl rolls over the back of the

00:34:50.360 turret and when you see him in the film he's missing his right leg his right leg is torn off

00:34:56.820 and his pants are literally smoking well the cameraman finally put their cameras down andy

00:35:01.980 rooney was one of them the future cbs journalist they go and they pick kelner up drag him to a shell

00:35:07.000 hole set him down and he bleeds to death right there in front of their eyes so one hour before the

00:35:14.560 battle is won less than a mile before victory someone has claimed the life of carl kelner

00:35:20.920 and julian patrick his driver who's sitting there from kentucky his eyes are open he's dead in the

00:35:26.680 driver's seat and cecil morris their their gunner or the loader is in pieces in the turret never going

00:35:33.880 back to texas and so somebody's got to deal with these guys somebody's got to deal with this this

00:35:40.020 panther tank it was a panther it pulled from a tunnel it had laid an ambush and it parked itself

00:35:45.260 right in front of the cathedral daring anyone to come forward and that's what happened to clarence

00:35:50.120 clarence the guy that dared to come forward yeah clarence said send me and there's a biblical verse

00:35:54.560 it's you know who shall i send who will go forth for us and and the response was send me and clarence

00:36:01.120 really embodied that and i really is selfless spirit somebody's got to do it send me and the persian

00:36:08.320 crew took off down that street and they were coming up a parallel street this panther tank was

00:36:14.060 watching the two shermans that had killed waiting for the next american tank it could it could destroy

00:36:18.740 inside that panther they had vowed to fight to the last round but they did it without saying it

00:36:23.440 they just parked themselves there and were ready to go so clarence is coming up a parallel street the

00:36:28.480 cameraman puts himself in the building aiming down at the panther he's about to capture the coolest

00:36:34.860 viral video of world war ii and in that time that it took clarence's tank to get up there the

00:36:41.500 panther commander who was a diehard and a veteran he decided they're not coming this way i'm watching

00:36:49.000 i'm going to turn my gun to the right to the empty intersection and i'm going to wait there and see who

00:36:54.040 appears there that's where clarence was headed and clarence and his gunner his driver had concocted a

00:36:59.660 plan he said listen we're going to go out we're going to nose into the intersection we're going to

00:37:03.700 shoot him once and then you back us out of there because he had this understanding germans tanks

00:37:07.760 often don't die in the first shot well the driver says okay and as soon as the driver breaches that

00:37:12.980 intersection and lays eyes on that panther he sees himself looking down the muzzle of that gun

00:37:18.320 and he sees his life about to end and he stomps on the gas and he throws the persian tank out into

00:37:24.600 the middle of the intersection and that's where we were so lucky we had clarence moyer at the gun that

00:37:28.940 day because he knew he didn't have time to aim milliseconds so he just fired he had his sights set

00:37:35.400 he had lowered his gun he had turned it to the right in preparation for this moment he hit the

00:37:40.540 panther in the back and the shock rattled the german crew inside the german gunner didn't squeeze

00:37:46.660 off around instead that terror struck the men and the commander came out next thing the driver comes

00:37:52.600 out and they start pouring out of the tank but it's not over because there's five guys in a german tank

00:37:58.900 if one of them reaches up for that trigger in his dying gasp i mean they're already fanatical they

00:38:03.880 already are fighting when other german soldiers are surrendering or swimming the rhine to escape the

00:38:09.540 americans these guys came to die and so clarence moved his sights forward shot it a second time moved

00:38:15.520 the sights forward shot a third time he made it burn he made that crew flee four out of five of them

00:38:22.320 actually got out of the tank and they ran away and he saved his crew's life so they backed up

00:38:27.440 and they're sitting there just rattled when the cameraman comes down he says i got it all

00:38:33.380 you know you're going to be the new heroes of world war ii and this is this is the picture taken after

00:38:38.680 that the cover of the book shows a frame taken from that film and i'll i'll give you this film for art

00:38:45.560 of manliness because it's something people have to see but the cover of spearhead shows this crew

00:38:51.680 literally five minutes after they had stared death in the face and you see you see the bow gunner

00:38:57.440 smoky smoky davis he's literally chain smoking a cigarette you see the driver woody mcveigh

00:39:03.480 he's got this thousand yard stare you see the the commander bob early and he can't stop fidgeting

00:39:10.140 with his helmet you see clarence and he looks like he's seen a ghost clarence has just his curly hair

00:39:14.420 and then you see this one guy john de rigi the loader and he's got this kind of cool debonair

00:39:19.120 smug kind of grin and i was wondering why was he why is he so composed the reason is because the

00:39:25.180 loader didn't have a periscope the loader didn't see anything the loader never saw how close they

00:39:29.800 were to dying i also like um you're supposed to wear a helmet as a tanker and they looked like

00:39:36.240 football helmets like spalding actually they use spalding football helmets they're leatherhead

00:39:40.480 helmets clarence never wore a helmet that was his thing he that was his thing and when you came out

00:39:45.520 of the tank you were always supposed to have a steel pot on and clarence would get yelled at again

00:39:49.660 and again he got ripped apart by his colonel for not not wearing his helmet the best gunner of world

00:39:54.520 war ii is uh is kind of a misfit in that regard and by the way he told me to say hello tonight

00:40:01.000 i actually asked him i said hey can i tell the people how you felt about killing that panther

00:40:05.700 74 years ago can i well how you're you're a badass clarence you're an american badass what did you

00:40:12.620 think he said well you know i'm proud i did my job i'm like wait a second you vanquished this crew

00:40:18.680 you avenged your buddies who had died in the most terrible way by the hand of this fanatical german

00:40:24.860 crew he said well you know it it was it was my job it was what i was supposed to do all these years

00:40:31.680 later he said he can't forget it it stays with him and yet he wouldn't brag about it even for me

00:40:36.920 to feed to you guys tonight to get you all pumped up he that's how humble this man is and that's how

00:40:41.760 the war stays with them well that's i've noticed that with all these world war ii vets when you ask

00:40:45.660 them about you know dick winners or these you know big time heroes you ask them how did you do it like

00:40:50.920 i mean were you proud he's like no i was just i was just doing my job that's that's like their go-to

00:40:55.520 response of just doing my job yeah because they knew everybody on their block everybody in their town

00:41:00.200 everybody that they knew was over there doing the same job today's military is different we have a

00:41:06.080 very small fighting force i've heard it's like five percent less than less than half a percent point

00:41:11.160 five percent point oh five percent of our population so less than one percent is doing the fighting for

00:41:17.100 us back then the percentage was ridiculous so it was easier to be humble about that because everybody

00:41:22.260 did it today our guys are the tip of the spear and they're they're very special they're very exclusive

00:41:26.580 actually so what happened to clarence after cologne cologne was not the end for him and he

00:41:34.080 had he had survived this there was more to come there was germany deeper into germany the heart of

00:41:40.400 germany and there was one last battle that i just again we watched him battling a german army in

00:41:45.900 mons belgium we watched him fighting through the battle of the bulge we watched him fighting their way

00:41:49.220 to cologne we watched him fighting in cologne and now they get a last mission which is end the war

00:41:53.680 what is the heart of germany is it berlin or is it the rur valley the rur valley is where germany was

00:41:59.600 producing all of its munitions it's where the coal was coming from the steel and the bullets

00:42:03.280 and eisenhower decided let's let the russians take the symbolic capital let them get hitler in berlin

00:42:09.280 we're going to go for the rur we've got to cut off the lifeline and so he sent these two

00:42:13.880 fabled armor divisions the second armored hell on wheels and the third armored on the deepest drive of

00:42:19.560 the war for them to encircle the rur clarence's unit spearhead made the longest drive 100 miles

00:42:25.240 in 24 hours all behind enemy lines to come up from the south get behind the rur they encircled it but

00:42:31.580 there was one town they had to take it's a town called patterborn and this town was where all the

00:42:36.440 rail yard the rail lines would go through the rail yard there into the rear pocket all the communication

00:42:41.720 flowed to the rear pocket the german troops would come in and out through patterborn there was a problem

00:42:46.580 though patterborn was the home of the german armor schools so the wehrmacht trained its tankers there

00:42:53.380 the ss trained its tankers there they experimented on new tanks there and that's where they had still

00:42:59.940 a large concentration of tanks at the very end of the war germany only had 200 tanks left on the western

00:43:05.020 front but they had more than 20 at patterborn and those 20 the instructors battle scarred instructors got

00:43:11.400 in they came out and they said we're going to defend patterborn to the end on easter morning april

00:43:16.920 1st clarence and his buddies line up on a hill it's like a scene out of braveheart or a movie the sun is

00:43:22.040 rising the chaplain is going from tank to tank the men are coming out of their hatches taking off their

00:43:27.140 hats some are coming down to the ground and taking a knee and he's giving a blessing at each tank the

00:43:32.160 armored infantry loads up and they're about to charge across two miles of open field filled with shell

00:43:37.560 holes shell holes filled with german soldiers with panzer faust they're going alongside of an airfield

00:43:43.060 on that airfield all the lufla flak guys no longer have planes to shoot at they've got tanks so they

00:43:48.560 lower their cannons they're 20 millimeters they're going to blast away at the tanks as they come across

00:43:52.780 the field and to compound it what's at the end for us two miles away we're going to attack the

00:43:57.460 patterborn rail yard and who's waiting in the rail yard tiger tank panthers the german armor cadre

00:44:04.000 is waiting for us so it's the ultimate showdown and that's the last battle clarence would fight

00:44:09.060 and he took care of it he took care of it he fought the most veteran german tank crew the one that scared

00:44:13.360 him the most was waiting for him there because they were they were these were the guys who were teaching

00:44:17.640 everybody else and so he has an incredible showdown there not even going to spoil it but the hardest

00:44:22.740 battle was the last for him so after the war clarence survived what was his life like as a as a

00:44:30.600 veteran well he came home and he thought i'm going to take a couple weeks off i'm going to decompress

00:44:34.940 and his buddy said hey all the boys are coming home you're never going to get a job now so he got a

00:44:39.140 job five days after he came home put all of his army stuff in a chest married his wife within a year

00:44:44.560 and he never looked back and he just bottled up world war ii and for the next 50 or 60 years never

00:44:51.360 wore a veteran hat never put a license plate on his car that said purple heart he went incognito and

00:44:58.000 tried to put the war behind he didn't even get a homecoming no he came home he was a hero like this

00:45:02.160 guy was did some of the most amazing things there yeah he came home to an empty train station and

00:45:07.440 empty streets and he just walked up the door knocked on his parents door and walked inside

00:45:11.840 so you mentioned uh gustav and clarence they they crossed paths in cologne but they didn't know each

00:45:17.740 other were in the tanks but they crossed paths again this time as old men how did that happen

00:45:23.160 what was the connection there well when i sat down with clarence that first day

00:45:26.680 he starts bombarding me with well i had to pull the stories out of him but he's bombarding me with

00:45:31.180 these golden nuggets wait a second you fought at the nazi fort knox as they called patterborn

00:45:36.160 wait a second you knocked out two tanks in cologne wait a second you shivered through the battle of

00:45:40.940 bulge when you have tiger tanks driving in front of you and you're hiding in the woods i'm like wait a

00:45:45.480 second and then he says oh yeah and i'm in touch with the german i fought against his name's gustav

00:45:50.140 schaefer and i'm thinking about meeting him in the spring i said oh my gosh this is a chance to tell it

00:45:55.260 from both sides what are the odds what are the odds that clarence who was one of the last four men from

00:45:59.940 his company you're talking a 200 man company there's four left gustav is the last survivor

00:46:06.060 of 160 we're talking 70 some years later what are the odds that this is actually going to happen

00:46:10.680 and i got to tag along with him went back to cologne march 2013 and watched as gustav approached

00:46:16.940 from one end of the cathedral square clarence approached from the other the big american in the

00:46:21.320 gray army jacket the little german in the black trench coat and you get to see these two enemies

00:46:26.740 shake hands and clarence leaned to him and he said the war is over we can be friends now and gustav

00:46:32.380 said yeah yeah gut and they actually went back to the hotel they both got these kolsch beers

00:46:38.880 amazing beer in cologne and they started telling stories they started cracking jokes and they had the

00:46:44.780 same sense of humor clarence said did your tank have a refrigerator in it and gustav said because clarence

00:46:50.220 said because ours did which is a total lie and gustav said yeah yeah ours did too you know only in

00:46:56.980 winter time they also like did they have a bathroom yeah yeah clarence said do they does yours have a

00:47:03.720 toilet because ours did and gustav said of course it did he said in the shell holes empty shell casings

00:47:09.740 i'm sorry in the shell casing god i butchered that um and then we find out that gustav's favorite

00:47:15.740 hobby is google earth he's 90 years old and his favorite thing is to surf the world from his

00:47:21.160 computer because he lived alone his wife had died and he said clarence he'd already stalked clarence

00:47:26.020 he said clarence what is that silver car that's out in front of your house i see every day

00:47:30.180 and clarence it's a dodge this or that and gustav said i can only see so far with my satellite what is

00:47:35.740 it like inside your house and these two came away as buddies they went back to the place they fought

00:47:41.280 they told their stories this is where our tank was this is where yours was this is what i was

00:47:45.840 thinking this is why i was trying to kill you and they came away as pals exchanging christmas cards

00:47:50.540 their pen pals exchanging letters and yes they even talked on the computer they would do skype together

00:47:56.920 clarence on a laptop gustav on a desktop two enemies 5 000 miles apart 70 years after the fact

00:48:03.500 looking at each other and saying how are you doing how was your day well you mentioned clarence

00:48:07.800 bottled this up um after the war didn't talk about it uh was this moment this exchange with

00:48:13.560 gustav was it therapeutic for him like was it something that he needed to do to sort of fight

00:48:16.980 those demons that he had he really did he uh he had no one to talk to and for for some veterans

00:48:23.040 talking about it is a way to release it there's a couple ways to deal with with trauma and stress

00:48:28.180 and one is to be able to talk about it another is to go back to where it happened and to reframe what

00:48:33.400 had happened to kind of if you're it's like any phobia if you're afraid of um heights you got to

00:48:39.320 work at trying to get yourself up somewhere high well for these guys their trauma was that intersection

00:48:44.620 that place where they'd exchange bullets that that those streets of cologne so he went back to the place

00:48:50.480 of his trauma and his the place of his nightmares and he stood there with his enemy side by side and

00:48:56.940 they talked through what had happened and he came home and used to have nightmares he used to have all

00:49:01.440 the night tremors and suddenly he's able to sleep a full night suddenly he's able to talk about the

00:49:07.800 war suddenly he's able to tell his stories to me it took 70 you know long 70 years for that to happen

00:49:12.780 you know adam as you got to work with clarence clarence is still alive you actually a part of the

00:49:18.280 book tour you got tell us about that because i thought this was really funny you're telling me

00:49:21.520 about so he's how he's 95 95 years old you did this in philadelphia in pennsylvania you made clarence

00:49:28.400 part of the book tour tell us about that because that's a lot of fun well clarence has given me so

00:49:32.340 much over six years i've worked with him four years researching two years actually writing the book

00:49:36.860 and i thought how can i give back to a guy that has given me everything his stories and his memories

00:49:42.100 and gone back to the battle i know what i'm going to do i'm going to bring a sherman tank to his first

00:49:46.660 book signing and so harrisburg pennsylvania midtown scholar bookstore sherman tank comes up from

00:49:52.600 gettysburg and parks in front of the store clarence is able to stand there and he's tapping

00:49:57.080 the old gun barrel with his cane then we're like let's double down on this clarence is up in boston

00:50:02.920 he's going to the uss constitution museum for a book signing he's expecting an uber to take him

00:50:07.980 to the signing rob collings at the american heritage museum i called him up i said i need your sherman

00:50:13.480 tank and rob brought it in clarence walks out of the uh uh residence inn and there's a sherman tank

00:50:19.980 not an uber and he gets on back and he climbs into the turret and we got the boston police to clear

00:50:25.460 the way we got an honor guard from the army and hundreds of people lined the streets waving

00:50:30.160 little american flags as he drove through boston to his book signing on the back of a sherman tank and

00:50:36.480 then we decided let's just surprise the heck out of him now he knows that these sherman tanks come

00:50:40.580 we're going to wait till he goes home to allentown and he's in his in his row house and he's just

00:50:45.760 unwinding from the book tour now he never got a homecoming right so i said let's give him a homecoming

00:50:51.180 in his hometown and let's surprise him in a way he's never going to understand he hears a sound at

00:50:56.700 10 o'clock in the morning he tells his daughter that sounds like a sherman tank she's like dad you're

00:51:02.240 crazy this is this is allentown you know these narrow streets and and they the cops even had to clear

00:51:08.660 some of the junky cars off the street you know they had to tow some of them because it was kind

00:51:12.000 of a rough neighborhood and sure enough we had a sherman tank come down the street clarence opens the

00:51:18.140 door he steps out there's a 33 ton tank idling at in front of his doorstep there is the honor guard

00:51:25.000 from the city of allentown police there are 75 of his neighbors trampling the other neighbor's yards

00:51:31.360 just to get a glimpse of him and he climbs on for that parade through his town where 200 people were

00:51:36.860 waiting as vfw to give him a true homecoming that homecoming never got 75 years ago so we've what i love

00:51:44.240 about this book is you have all these other subplots going along we didn't talk about that add add to

00:51:48.780 the story the richness of the story but i'm curious after all your time working on this book and

00:51:53.800 interacting with clarence like what's been your your big takeaway how is how has this book changed you

00:51:59.280 as a writer you know i i think one thing i always say about the guys i write about i call them the

00:52:05.340 anti-kardashians because it kind of sickens me to have a society where you know it's it's okay now to

00:52:12.960 say this is how rich i am and look how hot i am and look where i am and you're not i'm on a private

00:52:18.200 jet and you're slumming it it's this rub it in your face attitude that's just disgusting and you

00:52:24.500 look at this generation who went away to war left their homes and went away sometimes for two years

00:52:29.420 and then you see a guy like clarence who saddles up in this tank and he's going to lead the way and

00:52:34.720 he knows the germans have their crosshairs set on the road he's about to go down he knows the only way

00:52:38.920 he's going to live through the day is if he can turn the tables on him somehow if he can get the

00:52:43.100 first shot off even though their gun is already waiting for him you see this guy who was willing

00:52:48.340 to die for his country who's willing to die for the people behind him and you say this is the ultimate

00:52:54.500 unselfishness this is the ultimate generosity this is the ultimate love and it's it's the antidote to

00:53:01.780 everything wrong in our society and happened all those years ago and we can't afford to forget it so

00:53:06.020 he's changed the way i look at life i i kick myself sometimes when i do that stupid stuff on

00:53:11.900 instagram so he's changing me and i hope his story will open eyes and make people say my god we had

00:53:18.100 the best warriors in the world we had the best tankers in the world and thank god we had clarence

00:53:22.920 schmoyer well adam this has been a great conversation thanks so much for your time gosh brett it's been a

00:53:27.180 great to be part of the art of manliness family this long and thanks to magic city books for having us and

00:53:32.720 thank you to everybody out there who's reading these books and celebrating these heroes with us

00:53:36.500 um it's it's a team effort we're all on the same team we're trying to see that these men are not

00:53:41.760 forgotten my guest today was adam makos he's the author of the book spearhead it's available

00:53:46.440 amazon.com and bookstores everywhere you can find out more information about his work at adammakos.com

00:53:51.120 also check out our show notes at aom.is spearhead where you can find links to resources

00:53:55.720 we're going to delve deeper into this topic well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast

00:54:12.020 check out our website artofmanliness.com where you can find all of our podcast archives there's over

00:54:15.800 490 there and you can also see the thousands of articles written over the years on everything from

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00:54:35.860 your continued support and until next time this is brett mckay reminding not only listen to the

00:54:38.960 aom podcast but put what you've heard into action

00:54:54.580 thank you for doing so

The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

#494： The Inspiring Story of One of WWII's Greatest Tank Gunners

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