#507： How to Increase Your Personal Agency
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Summary
Many people today are feeling stressed or overwhelmed by life. The typical approach to treating these issues is to learn how to manage one s symptoms through things like mindfulness or meditation. Dr. Paul Knapper argues that mere management is insufficient. Instead, we need to tackle the root of what s causing us to feel anxious, stuck, and generally lost, and a decreasing sense of agency.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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Many people today are feeling stressed or overwhelmed by life.
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The typical approach to treating these issues is to learn how to manage one's symptoms through
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My guest today argues that mere management is insufficient.
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Instead, we need to tackle the root of what's causing us to feel anxious, stuck, and generally
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His name is Dr. Paul Knapper, and he's a psychologist and the co-author of the book, The Power of
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Agency, The Seven Principles to Conquer Obstacles, Make Effective Decisions, and Create a Life
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Today on the show, Paul makes the case that the reason more and more people feel like
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they're floundering is that they don't have a strong sense of personal agency.
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Paul explains what he means by agency and why learning how to get better at thinking, acting,
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and making choices for yourself can be the real key to feeling less stuck in life.
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Paul and I then discuss the seven overarching principles of increasing your agency, as
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After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is.agency.
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So you are the co-author of a new book, The Power of Agency, The Seven Principles to Conquer
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Obstacles, Make Effective Decisions, and Create a Life on Your Own Terms.
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You also co-wrote this with another psychologist.
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You work in the field of management psychology.
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Your co-author is a child and family psychologist.
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And you start out the book saying that you've both seen a rise in anxiety and overwhelm amongst
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How has this been manifesting this itself in different ways to both of you guys?
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And it gets right to the heart of the book in terms of what we're trying to address.
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In Anthony's practice, I call him Tony, he has seen in the folks that he, his patients,
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he's seen, and primarily his patients are boys.
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So families bring boys in who are experiencing some trouble.
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Boys are actually overrepresented in therapy practices throughout the country.
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And how it shows up in boys, overwhelm and anxiety, is the kids tend to get in trouble
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Some of them, more and more, he's finding to actually go on strike and just basically want
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So he's seen that in kids, in the boys, in his practice.
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What I see with the adults I work with, and again, I do executive coaching work helping
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And what I see are people experiencing, you know, feeling stuck, you know, feeling periodic
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Some people, you know, experiencing overwhelm, you know, almost daily.
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They're also kind of feeling a lack of decisiveness.
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You know, a lot of people complaining that, you know, that they have the sense that outside
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forces are more powerful than they are, and they just feel in some ways kind of powerless
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So, you know, all in, I mean, both sort of, you know, younger folks and adults, you know,
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many people are kind of struggling to find their place in the world.
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And, you know, so bottom line is, you know, we wrote this book to help people who are feeling
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Another one, one thing I thought was interesting, you also, you talked to like a minister and
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this guy in the book says that one thing he's noticed in the past 10 to 15 years is that
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more of the members in his congregation, like they're coming to him for help for things
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that people wouldn't come to help, you know, come for help a couple of years ago.
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And it's like, they just like, they don't know what to do.
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And, you know, in, in times of, of, of stress, you know, people turn to other people for help.
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They, they look, they look to other people also for validation.
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So we see that in the social media phenomenon, you know, people are looking for, at other people
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and trying to figure out what are they doing and, you know, am I doing what they're doing?
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And so, so, you know, another person, we had the minister, we interviewed him.
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We also interviewed a woman who has been a therapist for 60 years and seeing, you know,
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clients over the span of a really long period of time.
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And she framed the issue as, you know, being that we're, we're really in a race to adapt
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The demands of modern life have, have, have changed so, so drastically in the last 30 years
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And I think that's why the minister from Minnesota, when we interviewed him, you know, he, he said
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They're not sure, they're running out of coping skills.
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And, and when people run out of coping skills, it shows up as overwhelm and anxiety.
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And, and they, you know, what happens from there is, you know, people have a harder time making
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decisions, sorting through options, you know, they, it just, it gums up the system.
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So you guys make the case that, you know, the past few decades, the, the focus on how
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to manage this anxiety and sense of overwhelm is, you know, managing stress, stress reduction
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And, and, and we're not really saying that, that those things are the wrong approach.
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Managing stress is important and, you know, we all need, we all need to do that.
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But what we're trying to get at in the book is that people are struggling with almost too
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So there, there are lots and lots of, of things being written that, that essentially are recommending
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people add more things to their to-do list, you know, do this, you know, don't do that.
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And so in some respects, we, we frame the problem, not as, you know, you need to do this and don't
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But really the problem is that people are feeling that they've lost the capacity to think for
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And we wanted to write in many respects, this is an ambitious undertaking.
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We wanted to write almost the granddad of, of, of, of, of all personal growth, self-help books,
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which is, you know, helping people think more for themselves, having more confidence in their
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We're giving people overarching principles to put into place in their lives, to guide them.
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But really we're saying, you know, the goal here is for you to become the expert in your own life
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and develop the confidence to make decisions for yourself.
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The focus isn't on simply do, do this, this, and do, and don't do that.
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It's really about, you know, grabbing the, the, the bull by the horns and developing the,
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the sort of mental toughness to make better choices in your life.
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So that's, gets this to the title of the book, that's agency, right?
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I mean, I mean, we, we define agency as it's, it's the ability to act as an effective agent
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So everybody understands the concept of a, of a, of a talent agent or of a sports agent.
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You know, that, that's a person who, who helps, you know, guide someone along, helps them
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smooth the way for their career, opens doors for them, opportunities for them.
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So, so you understand the idea of, of, of an agent working for someone on their behalf.
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But what we're writing about is a concept that has long been discussed in, in the field
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And it's about the, the, the capacity that each of us has inside ourselves to be an effective
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And that's what we've been finding has, has been, you know, kind of declining, you know,
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as people, you know, struggle to adapt as they experience more anxiety and overwhelm, the
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capacity to, to, to find their agency and, and to, you know, put it into, into, into action
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So that's, that's really, you know, you, you, you, you, you've kind of get gotten to the
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nub of it, Brett, you know, with that question.
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Well, I mean, so, but are, is agency actually reducing or is it like people sense it?
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Cause like we live in an age now where you can like, you can customize shoes, however
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You can make an iPhone case, whatever you want it to say.
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Is, has agency actually reduced or do, is it just people are overwhelmed?
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And so they feel like their sense of agency is decreased.
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Well, that's, that's, you know, that, that, that deciding what, you know, is primary and
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what secondary is a part of your, your question, which is good.
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What's true of how we live today is there are more, we're faced with more choices.
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You know, there's, it's become a cliche to, to, to talk about the fact we live in the so-called
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information age, but we do, we live in an age where there are, there, there's enormous
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amount of information coming at us each and every day.
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And we are required as, as human beings to make choices each and every day in, in, in,
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And because of the sheer volume of information coming our way and, you know, the fact that
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the economy is changing, jobs are changing, there are more demands, more thinking demands,
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mental demands being placed on us than were existed 30 years ago.
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So, you know, psychologists call this the cognitive demands, which, which is just basically
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So in a lot of respects, you know, we have to be, our thinking skills matter more today
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And that's a function of living in, in this information age with so many things coming at
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us, so many messages, we have to get clear on, you know, what our priorities are.
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And what we talk about is the importance of being able to think clearly for oneself is,
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you know, that's the, that sort of forms the bedrock of having a sense of self-confidence.
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And when you have a sense of self-confidence, your anxiety goes down and your level of agency
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And so that's what we are trying to help people to find is, you know, find their, their, their
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confidence and allow their agency or their capacity to be an effective agent for themselves
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And it sounds like the way you've written about the book, agency is a skill that can be learned.
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And I feel like I've noticed something with younger people and even myself is that, you
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know, I grew up in the eighties and nineties and you were sort of told like, here's the
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Like you go to high school and then you take the SAT and then you go to college and then
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Like the really, I didn't have to make too many, like there were some choices, but you
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know, basically I had this pattern I had to follow and that was it.
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And so you have a lot of young people who haven't really had to exercise agency because
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they just follow whatever they're supposed to do.
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And now they're in this fast changing world where like the old pattern doesn't work.
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And now they having a hard time figuring out what to do now because they haven't really
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I think, I think what's true is over the last 30 years, a lot's been written on this, you
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know, kids are being raised with more and more structure all the time.
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So highly structured activities, you know, a lot of times very structured academic tracks.
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And so, you know, the idea behind that is to give kids a leg up, right?
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To, to increase their capabilities, to make them more competitive in, you know, the, the
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The downside of that, as you've pointed out really well is without structure, which is,
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you know, when you reach adulthood, there's a lot less structure, right?
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So we're seeing a lot of younger folks who, without the structure, they feel lost and
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So they don't bounce back as effectively as you'd like from setbacks.
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It's also for folks who are, who are older, who are further along in their careers, who
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are experiencing change that they need to adapt to, but agency can be learned is the bottom
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It's, there's no book out there that's really set up to teach agency.
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There's a lot of academic stuff on agency, on why it matters.
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And, you know, it's, it's basically integral to the human experience.
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And I think why it's coming up now is because people are really struggling to find it.
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And, you know, part of that is just, you know, we're really distracted.
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You know, everybody, you know, is trying to sell us something and it's very easy to kind
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And, you know, part of this is, is, is, is, is also, you know, what we define as how do
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I mean, you know, we were bombarded with images each and every day about what telling us, you
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And, you know, America is a very achievement oriented country in many respects, that's what's
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made us so strong, but too much of a good thing is not a good thing.
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And people being exposed to so many images of what success looks like, what it should look
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And so what we're, what we advocate in our book is people need to do some deep reflection
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Because it doesn't mean the same thing to everyone and it shouldn't mean the same thing
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So, you know, agency is partly about finding out where do you stand in, in your life, in
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terms of what matters to you and how you want to live.
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Cause there are lots of different ways to live, not just one way.
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And so it starts with, it starts with that, with, with getting some clarity on what's important
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Well, let's dig into how we can have more agency in our lives.
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So you, the book, the subtitle of the book, there's seven principles.
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What are those seven principles and talk about how they interact with one another?
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Yeah, the, the, there's seven simple, you know, basic sort of foundational principles
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to, to, to, that, that help keep people grounded.
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And the first three, we call behavioral principles, behavioral in the sense of, you know, they're,
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They're, you know, they're, they're things you can just start to do behaviorally in your
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The first one is called control stimuli, which is, it revolves around the idea of controlling
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the amount of stimulation you expose yourself to.
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The second principle is called associate selectively, which is paying attention to the people you
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Move means using your body, paying attention to your physical health, you know, eating well,
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getting enough rest and hitting the gym or running or, you know, whatever activities,
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whatever type of movement appeals to you, you know, get your body in motion.
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The next four, we call the cognitive principles, which are more about thinking and, and managing
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These are a little more complicated because they involve thinking and emotions.
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So the first of the cognitive principles is called position yourself as a learner.
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And the reason why this is one of our core principles is because our capacity to learn
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Then the idea of positioning yourself as a learner, what that implies is it's a, it's a
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We need to actively position ourselves to learn in all situations from, from all people.
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So learning is, is, is, is integral to a sense of agency.
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The next principle is called manage your emotions and your beliefs.
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You know, how do we determine if, if, if, if our emotions and our beliefs are where they,
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Because I mean, one of the key findings of our, of our book, of our research is that when
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our minds and our bodies physically are in balance, our decision-making improves.
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And when our decision-making improves, we then create a life that's more along the lines
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of what matters to us, what, what, what, you know, what, what we want in our lives.
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So when your emotions and your beliefs are out of whack, it's hard to, to be grounded.
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So this is one of the very important principle, and there's lots of things you can do in terms
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of better managing emotions and, and, and beliefs.
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You know, the bottom line here is, you know, we are more, we are emotional creatures, primarily
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human beings are herd animals also, which is, I think, under-emphasized and being a herd
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Just think of wild horses out, out in the wide open spaces, right?
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We, we, we often don't, I don't think acknowledge that.
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And so, you know, when you're exposed to people who, you know, have high emotions, you know,
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you start to take on some of those emotions yourself.
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So being careful about that, you know, being aware of that is, is, is very important.
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Checking your intuition means doing a gut check.
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You know, what, what's my gut telling me and making sure you use that information wisely,
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which is to say not impulsively, but as a source of additional data in making decision.
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And then the final and sort of pinnacle practice is we call deliberate, then act, which the bottom
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line with this final principle is that you want to separate your thinking and deliberation
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from your taking action, especially on really important decisions.
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So when you need to make an important call, give thought to how are, how am I actually going
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to make this decision and, and separate that from taking action and then figure out, okay,
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so once I've made the decision, how do I put that into, into action?
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One of the chapters that really stood out to me was the idea of controlling stimuli.
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So what are the types of stimuli that we need to manage in order to help increase our
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And the reason this is the first principle is because, you know, you need to have a clear
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head in order to really do anything of value in your life, right?
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I mean, if your head is clogged with all kinds of, of, of information and distraction, it's
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really hard to, to kind of be effective in be present and make good decisions.
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The other reason why this is our first principle is that, you know, when you achieve this,
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when you're able to keep more of a clear head, it allows you to use the other principles.
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So, you know, there's, there's a lot of things that, that you can do here, many different
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techniques, you know, some common ones that more and more people are starting to do that,
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that I'm seeing is, you know, putting your phone away, putting it in a box or in a drawer
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You know, what we found is out of sight, out of mind is really good when it comes to electronic
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You know, from our interviews with, with all, with all kinds of people in different walks
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of life, you know, we arrived at a place that was a little scary, which is that, you know,
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more and more we are like trained monkeys tethered to devices that prompt us at all hours of the
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day, you know, where we put our attention is literally everything.
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It's the most important decision you make for yourself and in your life.
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So if you are literally being led around by devices and your attention is simply going
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where other people are prompting it to go, you're not going to be in control of your life.
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You're not going to feel great ultimately, and your level of agency is going to decline.
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So simple, simple acts of just, you know, putting that phone away out of sight for periods
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One other piece of advice in terms of devices, you know, which is that a lot of times when
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you want to reach out for your device, do something different, move your body instead, get up, take
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You know, a lot of times we reach for a device when we need a moment to recharge and reaching
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So another thing to focus on in terms of controlling stimuli is do less multitasking, do more what
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I was backing out of my garage yesterday and, you know, my phone was going off.
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And I was having to angle my car to avoid the mound of snow.
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And in any case, you know, my phone was beeping and getting a text message.
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So, you know, not paying close attention, I nicked the mirror onto the side of the garage.
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And, you know, it's an example, you know, a concrete, simple example.
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What can happen when we're doing too many things at one time and our attention is divided?
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So, you know, there's a lot of research that suggests when we are multitasking, we actually
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think we're doing a lot better than, in fact, we really are.
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And so we want to, you know, one of the other, you know, as I said, simple practice here in
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There's tons of other things in the book, other things you can do to control the stimuli
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But the bottom line here is in terms of technology, because technology has been a game changer and
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it has a lot to do with why controlling stimuli has become such an important thing for all
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You want to make sure that you're using technology rather than letting technology use you.
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And, you know, this is something I bet you can relate to, Brett, because it seems to me
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that, and this is more just an inference I'm drawing, it seems to me that you're someone
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who uses technology as opposed to letting it use you.
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So, you know, you find ways to productively employ it to enhance your life and you probably
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try to limit the downside of it, you know, invading your life.
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I've used apps to like control, like, well, actually I don't have Instagram on my phone.
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I don't, I don't, I don't look at Twitter really anymore.
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Facebook don't use that anymore because I just didn't, wasn't bringing me any value.
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Now those are really great examples of controlling stimuli and it become, it's become much, much
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And, you know, for each person, there are different things to do, different ways to go
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It's not a one size fits all thing, but to your credit, I mean, you, you know, you actually
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made some very clear choices and I'm sure you probably reflected on those choices before
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you, you, you acted on them and, and made them for a good reason.
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You know, I, I got off of Facebook four years ago and you know, the, the strange thing is
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I was not a heavy user of Facebook, but the strange thing is just thinking about doing
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I was like, I was like, you know, like, wow, well, what, what am I, what am I, what, what
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What will I be missing by making that decision?
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And, you know, it was strange because, you know, again, not being a heavy user, it wasn't
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like it was that, it wasn't that, it was that important to me.
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But once I made the decision and did it, I never looked back and I, and I frankly didn't
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miss it, but you know, the thing is, is that, you know, there's an opportunity cost, which
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is an economic principle for every decision we make.
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And the opportunity cost is if, you know, when you say yes to something, you're in effect
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So when you're on social media, just for example, since we're talking about it, when you say
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yes to social media and you're, if you spend an hour, two hours on it every day, that's two
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So, you know, there's, and there's a huge cost to that.
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So in any case, it's, you know, that's, that's an important topic in its own right on how to
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control stimuli and, you know, all the different ways to do it and all the different, you know,
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the ways that you do it, Brett, the ways that, you know, other people do it.
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It's, it's, and it is a really, really critical thing for us today.
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We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.
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Well, let's talk about the next principle, which is associate selectively.
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How do the people we choose to associate with influence our sense of agency?
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And this is a, one of the, the more critical principles as well.
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The main reason is we pick up the emotional states of other people.
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When other people around us are confident, happy, motivated, open, we, we are too.
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So if you're surrounded by people who are not those things, if you're surrounded by people who
00:27:35.560
are depressed, angry, you know, negative most of the time, you're going to become that way
00:27:46.000
And we all have these, these mirror neurons that, that function and we, we don't have full
00:27:51.900
We just don't, the other important thing about associating selectively and you know, what
00:27:57.280
that means is, I mean, to associate selectively, what it means is actively choosing the people
00:28:01.820
that you have in your life and especially the people that are closest to you.
00:28:06.560
You know, you've got some great information on your website about the different types of
00:28:11.040
friendships, especially the types of friendships men have.
00:28:13.820
And, you know, how many people generally we have in our closest circle, the common number
00:28:21.920
is five people, six people are sort of in our, our inner circle.
00:28:26.160
Those people closest to us have an enormous effect on our level of agency.
00:28:32.400
The other thing that's critical here is isolation for human beings is like kryptonite.
00:28:38.920
It's, you know, it's, it's, it really, really diminishes our agency.
00:28:44.600
And that's why, you know, agency really is always expressed, you know, with and through
00:28:53.800
So it's both about making sure you're not isolated, making sure that the inner circle of
00:29:00.680
folks really are supportive, you know, confident, motivated people, people you can learn from
00:29:11.420
And if you can't fix a relationship, that's gotten really negative, you know, we're not
00:29:16.100
suggesting you abandon people when they become difficult at all.
00:29:19.700
You know, that's not, that, that's not appropriate, but if you can't get relationships onto a better
00:29:25.440
path, then limit the amount of time you spend with those people.
00:29:29.140
Or if you absolutely have to move on because those people are really going to cost you a lot.
00:29:34.420
So, so anyway, that's, that, that's what associate selectively means.
00:29:38.580
There's a lot of different ways to, you know, as you read, if you read the chapter, you know,
00:29:42.760
there are a lot of different ways to practice associating selectively in your life.
00:29:46.820
But it's, it's probably the most important decision that you're going to make is, is who
00:29:53.140
And it can be the hardest one too, because like you said, there might be some really good
00:29:56.560
friends or even family members who are bringing you down.
00:29:59.580
And in order for you to move on in your life, you might have to separate yourself a bit from
00:30:06.820
It can be very painful, but it starts with an awareness of, you know, sort of a taking
00:30:11.680
stock of who's in my life, you know, who, who in my life really supports me?
00:30:16.060
Who in my life do I learn from who in my life kind of gets me motivated and charged up, you
00:30:21.940
know, each and every day, do I have anyone, you know, if I don't have anyone, that's a
00:30:29.220
And so, you know, there's ways to, you know, set boundaries, set limits on, on some of the
00:30:34.060
people who are really negative, you know, for certain family members, you know, it's
00:30:38.340
You don't, you don't cut family members out of your life entirely, but there are ways to
00:30:45.780
So you're not, you know, you don't, you don't fall into the same traps over and over.
00:30:50.520
And again, also having really, you know, good quality people in your life who support you
00:30:58.320
Those people can make up for, you know, other people who have a more negative influence.
00:31:02.720
But yeah, this is, this is a, this is an important one.
00:31:05.340
Again, people you surround yourself with, I want to make really good choices there.
00:31:09.740
Well, in a book about making choices for yourself, I was surprised to find a chapter on just
00:31:14.460
movement, exercise, moving your body, taking care of yourself.
00:31:26.520
You know, we need our brains, our brains or we need their brains each and every day.
00:31:31.800
Obviously it sounds silly to say it, but you know, our brains are, are the thing that,
00:31:36.500
that make us unique and anything that helps us, you know, in terms of allowing our brain
00:31:50.400
Anything from a brisk walk, you know, on up will increase the blood flow to the brain.
00:32:01.080
It basically, it's the thing that, that allows our brain to function at its best.
00:32:06.500
So we're designed to be, we're designed to move.
00:32:09.840
I mean, we are designed to be in motion as, as people.
00:32:14.520
And what's happened is, you know, over the last, this is, you know, true for the last
00:32:19.200
30 years in particular, we've become much more sedentary.
00:32:26.360
Now, you know, there are plenty of people who don't, who practice movement, but there are
00:32:30.160
a lot of people on a cultural level, on a, you know, population wide level.
00:32:34.560
Many, many more people are spending more time sitting.
00:32:41.040
A lot of it has to do with, you know, devices because most often, you know, we're sitting
00:32:49.140
You know, you've seen, obviously you've seen people walking while looking at a device
00:32:52.820
and, and you've probably seen that that doesn't always work out so well.
00:32:56.460
And, um, so, you know, uh, there's a lot of information out there about the importance
00:33:04.900
But when we say movement, we mean something that goes beyond just physical movement.
00:33:09.660
And what we mean is paying attention to your physical body and what it needs to be, you
00:33:19.020
So, you know, it's like taking your car in for service, right?
00:33:22.500
I mean, there are, there are a lot of men, you know, I know who, who, who keep their
00:33:26.660
car in better working order than they do their own physical bodies.
00:33:39.840
You know, there's a lot of research about how chronically sleep deprived most Americans
00:33:44.940
That is really a problem because when we're sleep deprived, we actually lose IQ points.
00:33:54.160
It sets us up for chronic illness later in life.
00:33:58.620
So there are a lot of things, simple things to pay attention to here in the, in the move
00:34:04.320
chapter, which is essentially, you know, all related to your physical body.
00:34:09.360
Because the bottom line here is your, our physical bodies are connected to our brains.
00:34:14.400
So, you know, again, principle, overall overarching principle, the book, you know, when, when we
00:34:21.040
are in better balance physically and mentally, we show up in life differently and, you know,
00:34:27.880
we have higher levels of agency and we make better decisions for ourselves.
00:34:32.400
And I think the other thing it does too, by exercising regularly or choosing to take care
00:34:36.760
of yourself is that it increases your sense of agency because you're exercising your agency
00:34:43.740
No, that, that's, I really, that's a beautiful thing you just said, I, you know, because when
00:34:50.220
we are sitting, you know, we essentially are in some ways communicating that we're stuck
00:34:57.060
and more and more people, you know, people I coach in my work, we talk about this, you
00:35:02.500
know, when I ask them to review, well, tell me about a typical day in your life, what is
00:35:07.380
And, you know, I pay attention to how much time are they actually, you know, moving around.
00:35:13.660
And for a lot of people who feel very stuck in their lives, simply moving more has a, has,
00:35:23.860
You know, again, movement boosts creativity and fluid thinking.
00:35:30.500
And, you know, if you're sedentary for long periods of time, it basically can produce what
00:35:36.340
the psychologist Martin Seligman referred to as learned helplessness, which is that, you
00:35:41.460
know, you just don't, you know, you feel trapped, you, you feel stuck.
00:35:46.600
And so, you know, it's very important to, to move your body.
00:35:52.000
If you, you know, you sit around for a day or two and don't do much of anything, you
00:35:56.520
start, you don't start to, you start not feeling so great, right?
00:35:59.540
Your thinking is less clear, you know, your emotions can get out of whack.
00:36:04.160
The other point I'll make, you know, on, on the chapter on move is the importance of being
00:36:08.720
outdoors, getting time in nature, because part of, you know, what's happened over the last
00:36:14.100
30 years is not just that we are sitting too much, but we're also indoors too much.
00:36:19.740
So getting outside is so beneficial to our sense of agency.
00:36:25.620
It improves our mood, it improves our creativity.
00:36:29.880
So, you know, get outdoors and even if literally just if it's for 10 minutes, it can be a game
00:36:38.860
Let's talk about a few of the cognitive principles.
00:36:41.100
And the first one you talked about is positioning yourself as a learner.
00:36:44.820
What does that look like and why is that important to increasing agency?
00:36:48.240
Yeah, you know, this is something that has become more important now than, than ever before.
00:36:59.080
We talked about this, you know, I talked about this a little earlier.
00:37:01.960
The bottom line with this principle is when we are well-informed, we make better decisions.
00:37:07.240
So our book teaches you how to get the best information.
00:37:12.920
We also help you to identify your best learning style.
00:37:18.860
There's, there, there are a few different learning styles.
00:37:21.440
It's really useful for all of us to know how we learn best.
00:37:25.180
You know, again, back to the point I made earlier about living in the information age,
00:37:32.480
So the, anything we do that can expand our capacity to learn increases our personal power.
00:37:43.240
So it's really, really important to think about how to best position yourself to learn.
00:37:50.700
And we can learn throughout every, each of our, each day we can learn.
00:37:56.060
There's opportunities learning from the people around us.
00:37:58.800
There's always opportunities to pick up new information just by being curious and opening
00:38:07.520
And again, this increases agency because our capacity to take things in and learn allows
00:38:18.740
So, you know, one thing I wanted to mention, your interview with, with Mike Rowe was interesting
00:38:23.860
to me because Mike makes a good case for, you know, they're different, they're different
00:38:30.180
ways that, that people learn and, and, and express agency in their lives.
00:38:35.060
Not everybody, you know, not everyone's talent is expressed by sitting at a desk and, and college
00:38:42.620
is not necessarily, traditional college is not necessarily for everyone either.
00:38:46.940
And so a lot of people ask me, well, you know, in this information age, you know, everyone's
00:38:55.360
And to some extent, it's easy to see how, how people come to that determination because
00:39:01.320
one of the better things about attending college is ideally it teaches you how to think
00:39:09.080
It's not so much about all the information you learn there, but it's, it's, it's teaching
00:39:16.360
So there are other ways, however, to learn how to think and to learn how to learn.
00:39:23.740
So what we talk about in our book is learn how you learn best, you know, get, get, increase
00:39:30.660
your level of awareness of that and make sure you incorporate learning into, you know, your,
00:39:36.520
your, your everyday experience and make good choices around how you educate yourself and,
00:39:42.640
and realize it's not, it's not necessarily a one size fits all approach.
00:39:46.880
I imagine just learning how to learn is going to be like the skill that will allow you to
00:39:51.000
have more agency in today's world because jobs are always changing.
00:39:57.300
Like what worked 10 years ago doesn't work today.
00:40:00.260
And that's probably why a lot of people in their careers feel overwhelmed.
00:40:03.120
They're like, well, man, like that stuff I learned in college or when I first started
00:40:08.700
They don't know what to do because they never really learned how to learn.
00:40:11.640
But so if you're constantly positioning yourself as a learner, you're able to adapt as
00:40:19.900
And if you, if you, if you, if you pay attention to how you learn and you, you know, develop
00:40:27.780
a habit of learning in your everyday life, that helps you to adapt to whatever comes down
00:40:37.380
And I think you said it well, Brett, there's a statistic that speaks to this as well, that
00:40:42.040
kids, kids born today, you know, more than 50% of the jobs that are out there will no
00:40:51.400
So for someone born today, it's really in some ways impossible to prepare them for a specific
00:40:58.980
So we're better off helping kids to develop greater agency, which is to say, helping them
00:41:07.900
to, to be able to better adapt to whatever comes along.
00:41:12.600
And the capacity to learn is really, you know, probably the most important thing there in
00:41:18.120
terms of helping you to be more adaptable in your, in your life.
00:41:22.040
So you mentioned at the beginning earlier in the show that managing your emotions is one
00:41:26.240
of the cognitive skills, that's really hard, but it probably has one of the, just like
00:41:32.680
So why is being aware of our emotions and knowing how to manage those an important part
00:41:40.820
You know, I think that sometimes we, you know, we, we, we under emphasize that or forget
00:41:45.260
that, but we're living in a world that is more and more complex every day, you know, more
00:41:51.920
and more information, you know, that we have to, to deal with.
00:41:56.840
And, you know, we, again, we, we're emotional creatures, you know, a lot of people feel things
00:42:03.320
first and, and our feeling affects our thinking, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're
00:42:10.360
So the reason why managing your emotions and beliefs is one of the core principles of agency
00:42:15.860
is that emotions are the strongest things happening in our heads.
00:42:24.160
They can take us down blind alleys if we're not self-aware.
00:42:28.820
So this capacity to, to kind of reflect on your feelings, to understand better why you feel
00:42:35.860
the way you do really helps to ensure that, you know, you have your emotions rather than
00:42:44.920
your emotions have you, because when our emotions are, are in charge, it often leads to less
00:42:54.820
So in other words, said, said differently, when we apply some thinking to our emotions, we
00:43:05.440
So that's, that's the, the bottom line with emotions and beliefs.
00:43:08.660
And the other point I'll make in terms, in terms of beliefs is, you know, beliefs are
00:43:14.220
better off when we actually question them and update them over time.
00:43:19.420
You know, as we learn more, as we grow, we sometimes need to update our beliefs.
00:43:25.360
You know, we talk, we talk about the difference in the, in the book about the difference in values
00:43:33.040
The things we value, the things we think of as, you know, most important, sort of unchanging
00:43:39.700
Beliefs are, are sort of, you know, connect, they're connected to emotion and they're connected
00:43:46.080
And if we're actually learning in our lives, we will modify some of the things we believe
00:43:53.220
And, and that helps us navigate in the world better because when we, we navigate in the world
00:43:58.340
with outdated beliefs, you know, we don't make good decisions for ourselves.
00:44:02.220
So it's important to, you know, to kind of realize the, how, how beliefs and emotions
00:44:11.400
And when you understand that relationship better, again, you make better choices for yourself.
00:44:16.200
Well, agency, you know, it comes down to making choices and taking action on those choices.
00:44:20.680
The problem is, you know, as we said earlier, a lot of young people, they haven't, they don't
00:44:26.040
have like a lot of, they haven't had a lot of practice making meat, like those really important
00:44:38.680
You know, interestingly enough, most of us are not trained or don't get educated specifically
00:44:50.020
You know, it's, it's very interesting to me that we don't get more, you know, along the
00:44:56.160
way in school, you know, in high school and, you know, whether we're, and then whether we
00:45:04.240
In some ways, you know, learning more specifically about how to make better decisions is, it's so
00:45:09.640
important to the, to determining what kind of life you have.
00:45:13.260
Because at the end of the day, you know, in many respects, we, we are the sum total of
00:45:22.100
So getting better at making decisions is pretty important.
00:45:26.600
So what we recommend in the book is using a process, having, having a framework to make
00:45:35.340
And again, these are the decisions that are, that are, that are, you know, not for each
00:45:39.260
and every decision, like whether you're going to the supermarket to buy, you know, a can of
00:45:44.440
peas, it's for the important decisions you're going to make, use a framework.
00:45:49.300
We provide one in the book, actually, a fairly simple framework.
00:45:53.640
We interviewed a judge, a detective, doctors, some business people to understand how these
00:46:01.920
expert decision makers arrive at their judgments.
00:46:08.280
And the interesting thing about it is, you know, everybody can become a better decision
00:46:16.280
So I think the issue is that, you know, again, it doesn't receive enough focus or attention.
00:46:22.400
So, you know, when you actually do focus on how you make a decision, you know, you actually
00:46:29.680
can make, the quality of your decisions will go, will go up.
00:46:33.460
So we talk a lot about in this chapter about being aware of the common thinking traps or
00:46:44.780
And, you know, there's some really terrific research out there that's been conducted over
00:46:48.380
the last 20 years or so on decision making, on the human capacity for decision making.
00:46:54.960
And, you know, the results are pretty startling, which, you know, the bottom line is, you know,
00:47:00.140
we, we actually are not as good at decision making as we think we are.
00:47:06.800
And, you know, I see it in my work, you know, with, with people who often work in business,
00:47:12.160
lots of bad decisions get made each and every day.
00:47:14.300
So improving your hit rate there will improve the quality of your life.
00:47:19.160
The big takeaway for me from that chapter was understanding that our brain likes to be lazy
00:47:24.380
when making decisions so that we rely on these biases or heuristics that in some situations
00:47:32.040
But when you're making like long-term, really important decisions, like you actually don't
00:47:38.700
You want to slow things down and actually, so you can be more effective, right?
00:47:43.680
So it's going to be, either things are going to be a little more clunky, it's going to be
00:47:46.720
more intentional, it's going to feel harder, but that, and that lets you know you're, you're
00:47:52.220
actually using that prefrontal cortex of yours that makes you a human.
00:47:56.040
So instead of just relying on your emotions and sort of those biases that we have.
00:48:01.400
I mean, simply slowing down the thinking process, you know, can have enormous benefit because
00:48:08.060
we all, to your point, we all prefer as human beings to engage in what we call fast thinking.
00:48:16.980
This, this all comes from research, you know, really terrific research done by Daniel Kahneman
00:48:22.580
and Amos Tversky, two psychologists who did a really deep dive on human decision-making.
00:48:29.280
And, you know, they basically have a two, a two-stage model that they built upon, which
00:48:35.460
is the idea that system one thinking is fast thinking, which is more intuitive, more automatic.
00:48:48.220
To engage effectively in system two thinking, you need to slow things down.
00:48:53.420
And certain decisions really require system two thinking.
00:48:57.960
You know, there's some decisions we make that it's okay to be automatic.
00:49:03.180
It's okay to be, you know, you don't have to give them a tremendous amount of thought.
00:49:07.680
You know, like again, back to the supermarket, you're picking up a can of peas.
00:49:10.980
It's not a big deal either way, you know, which can of peas you end up with.
00:49:14.920
But, you know, when you're making an important career decision or, you know, you're thinking
00:49:19.300
about, you know, getting married or you're making a really important life decision, that's
00:49:25.280
really important to give some thought to, you know, how you're making that decision.
00:49:29.400
And that requires employing what's called system two thinking, just slowing things down,
00:49:34.480
using all your human capability to apply to that decision.
00:49:40.500
And so, you know, again, the bottom line here is that, you know, we as human beings have
00:49:45.420
a lot of capability within us that's undeveloped.
00:49:50.340
And agency is the capacity to pull all of that together, all of our ability, all of our
00:49:58.800
capacity as human beings, pull it all together and make use of it to make good choices and
00:50:08.860
So that we create a life on our terms, not on somebody else's terms, not on, you know,
00:50:15.120
what someone on Instagram or Facebook or, you know, what somebody else has defined as being
00:50:31.220
You know, agency is making these decisions for yourself.
00:50:39.740
And so Deliberate and Then Act, the final chapter of the book, is really where it all
00:50:46.180
And it's designed to help you to become a much better decision maker in your life.
00:50:52.900
Well, I think a lot of people, there might be not a lot of people, I think some people,
00:50:57.260
Do the deliberation part, but they have trouble taking action on that decision.
00:51:03.260
Like, what's stopping them from taking action and how do you get over that hump?
00:51:07.600
Well, it's a really good question because I think, you know, some people, and we've all
00:51:12.580
probably come across these people, you know, they're smart, they seem really able, and,
00:51:16.900
you know, they're people who make good decisions, but then don't act on them.
00:51:22.180
And, you know, we talk about the four large impediments to taking action in your life.
00:51:28.680
And, you know, one of them, not surprisingly, is procrastination.
00:51:43.740
And so that prevents them from taking the best actions.
00:51:47.940
Obsession and perfectionism are the two other impediments.
00:51:53.000
When we obsess over something, you know, we are trying to make sure we're making the perfect
00:52:00.040
decision, you know, and we can't, you know, pull the trigger and just move forward.
00:52:06.380
So, you know, these are probably four most common reasons, common things that get in the way
00:52:15.760
And, you know, they all have, they all produce different outcomes and people have different
00:52:23.940
There's some people who are more obsessive, you know, in their thinking.
00:52:26.900
They're constantly thinking about, well, but on the other hand, or, you know, well, what
00:52:35.160
Then you got people who, you know, are so impulsive that they literally make a decision and they can
00:52:42.360
move into action too quickly and then regret it.
00:52:46.560
So, and then you have your procrastinators who basically just try to, you know, avoid or defer,
00:52:52.860
you know, even thinking about something till the last minute.
00:52:56.240
So there's, you know, these are just some of the things that get in our way of putting good
00:53:05.060
And the book talks about these things and how to get around them.
00:53:09.100
You know, the bottom line is, you know, there's a lot of low-hanging fruit in terms, for most
00:53:14.820
people, in terms of how they can be better, both at making decisions and then taking action
00:53:23.040
And these things, you know, getting better at this stuff, you know, it simply requires
00:53:28.520
And, you know, with some focused attention to it, you know, anyone can become a much better
00:53:33.820
And that leads to greater confidence and greater happiness.
00:53:39.900
And, you know, it's really flexing your agency muscle, you know, because confidence, you know,
00:53:49.380
And it is the kind of antidote to the anxiety and overwhelm that everyone's experiencing these
00:53:56.740
And, you know, that's really kind of what we designed the book for, is for people to
00:54:03.040
not be stuck, for people to, you know, again, kind of more actively grab the bull by the
00:54:10.880
horns and think about their lives, think about what matters to them, and get busy creating
00:54:19.400
So, anyway, it's a lot to think about, but really, bottom line here is, you know, we focus
00:54:26.100
more on principles with this book, as opposed to, you know, specific to-do items.
00:54:31.620
So, basically, you know, I think when, you know, our assumption there is, you know, when
00:54:36.220
people have, like, you know, when they understand why they're doing something, which is, you know,
00:54:41.960
the principles, when they understand why this matters, they then can put that into use in
00:54:47.620
their lives, and it will influence, you know, how they go about everything, and as opposed
00:54:54.600
to us telling them, you know, do this, don't do that, and, you know, which oftentimes can
00:55:02.800
So, you know, again, the book was written to help people simply become much better at
00:55:09.140
making life choices and, you know, creating a life on their terms and moving away.
00:55:16.800
A lot of times that means moving away from the herd, not doing what everybody else is
00:55:20.980
doing, and, you know, and finding out, you know, what matters to you, you know, what floats
00:55:28.460
Because, you know, among the people we interviewed for this book, we found all kinds of people
00:55:32.880
doing really interesting things, things you never would think of.
00:55:36.880
And, you know, that came from them, you know, developing a greater sense of agency in their
00:55:43.760
So we thought, you know, we share this with other people, this is going to really help.
00:55:50.000
So ultimately, that's our goal, is to help people to defeat overwhelm and anxiety, to feel
00:55:57.960
less stuck, and to create a life that is really uniquely theirs.
00:56:04.920
Well, Paul, where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?
00:56:10.920
It's called The Power of Agency, The Seven Principles to Conquer Obstacles, Make Effective
00:56:16.400
Decisions, and Create a Life on Your Own Terms.
00:56:18.960
We also have a website, which is powerofagency.com.
00:56:22.820
We have developed a short instrument, a test that you can take to measure your level of
00:56:31.920
So that, if you buy the book, you can take the test for free in the book.
00:56:35.900
If you go to our website, you can actually take the first of the subtests, which measures
00:56:43.760
And you'll get a brief report that describes your results.
00:56:49.340
So we also have, we were guests on the podcast, Better at Everything, and they released that
00:56:58.500
The Move Principle was released today by the Better at Everything folks.
00:57:04.740
So there's lots of ways to learn about the book.
00:57:10.120
And again, I think this is, in some ways, has particular meaning to men, because I didn't
00:57:17.020
mention this at the beginning, but men are struggling right now.
00:57:21.800
There's a lot of data on the fact that men are falling behind women in a lot of key measures,
00:57:34.920
And we wrote this book as a way to help all people, but particularly to help men, to get
00:57:43.600
a leg up, and to better adapt to the world we live in today.
00:57:49.820
It's why our publisher has described the book as, really, it's the seven habits for highly
00:57:56.440
effective people a generation later, 30 years after that book was published.
00:58:01.960
Our book is designed to help people navigate in a 24-7, plugged-in world, which didn't exist
00:58:17.700
And we wanted to write a book that talks about what those people are doing differently, and
00:58:23.240
why it is that they seem to be adapting better, and what we can all learn from them.
00:58:29.000
So this is our effort to do that and put it out there.
00:58:33.420
So yeah, you can buy the book anywhere books are sold.
00:58:35.740
And I hope people continue listening to your podcast, Brett, because you've got invaluable
00:58:44.120
They're incredibly fun and enlightening, all the topics you cover.
00:58:49.720
So that's another way to position yourself as a learner, is get out there and expose yourself
00:58:56.600
to new ideas, and that will increase your level of agency.
00:59:07.580
He's the co-author of the book, The Power of Agency.
00:59:10.020
It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.
00:59:12.420
You can find more information about his work at his website, powerofagency.com.
00:59:16.480
Also, check out our show notes at aom.is slash agency, where you can find links to resources,
00:59:29.800
Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast.
00:59:32.820
Check out our website at artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives.
00:59:36.540
There's over 500 there, as well as thousands of articles written over the years on things
00:59:40.220
like that relate to agency, how to make better decisions, how to be assertive, things like
00:59:43.920
And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate it if you take one minute to give us a review
00:59:50.700
Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you think would get something
00:59:54.540
As always, thank you for the continued support.
00:59:56.540
Until next time, this is Brett McKay reminding you not only to listen to the AOM podcast, but
01:00:25.000
You can maybe film it that way from each other.
01:00:28.880
There's enough information in your près, because there's enough trunk to you be still up to you.