#507： How to Increase Your Personal Agency
Episode Stats
Summary
Many people today are feeling stressed or overwhelmed by life. The typical approach to treating these issues is to learn how to manage one s symptoms through things like mindfulness or meditation. Dr. Paul Knapper argues that mere management is insufficient. Instead, we need to tackle the root of what s causing us to feel anxious, stuck, and generally lost, and a decreasing sense of agency.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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Many people today are feeling stressed or overwhelmed by life.
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The typical approach to treating these issues is to learn how to manage one's symptoms through
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My guest today argues that mere management is insufficient.
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Instead, we need to tackle the root of what's causing us to feel anxious, stuck, and generally
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His name is Dr. Paul Knapper, and he's a psychologist and the co-author of the book, The Power of
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Agency, The Seven Principles to Conquer Obstacles, Make Effective Decisions, and Create a Life
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Today on the show, Paul makes the case that the reason more and more people feel like
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they're floundering is that they don't have a strong sense of personal agency.
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Paul explains what he means by agency and why learning how to get better at thinking, acting,
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and making choices for yourself can be the real key to feeling less stuck in life.
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Paul and I then discuss the seven overarching principles of increasing your agency, as
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After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is.agency.
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So you are the co-author of a new book, The Power of Agency, The Seven Principles to Conquer
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Obstacles, Make Effective Decisions, and Create a Life on Your Own Terms.
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You also co-wrote this with another psychologist.
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You work in the field of management psychology.
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Your co-author is a child and family psychologist.
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And you start out the book saying that you've both seen a rise in anxiety and overwhelm amongst
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How has this been manifesting this itself in different ways to both of you guys?
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And it gets right to the heart of the book in terms of what we're trying to address.
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In Anthony's practice, I call him Tony, he has seen in the folks that he, his patients,
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he's seen, and primarily his patients are boys.
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So families bring boys in who are experiencing some trouble.
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Boys are actually overrepresented in therapy practices throughout the country.
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And how it shows up in boys, overwhelm and anxiety, is the kids tend to get in trouble
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Some of them, more and more, he's finding to actually go on strike and just basically want
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So he's seen that in kids, in the boys, in his practice.
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What I see with the adults I work with, and again, I do executive coaching work helping
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And what I see are people experiencing, you know, feeling stuck, you know, feeling periodic
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Some people, you know, experiencing overwhelm, you know, almost daily.
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They're also kind of feeling a lack of decisiveness.
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You know, a lot of people complaining that, you know, that they have the sense that outside
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forces are more powerful than they are, and they just feel in some ways kind of powerless
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So, you know, all in, I mean, both sort of, you know, younger folks and adults, you know,
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many people are kind of struggling to find their place in the world.
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And, you know, so bottom line is, you know, we wrote this book to help people who are feeling
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Another one, one thing I thought was interesting, you also, you talked to like a minister and
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this guy in the book says that one thing he's noticed in the past 10 to 15 years is that
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more of the members in his congregation, like they're coming to him for help for things
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that people wouldn't come to help, you know, come for help a couple of years ago.
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And it's like, they just like, they don't know what to do.
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And, you know, in, in times of, of, of stress, you know, people turn to other people for help.
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They, they look, they look to other people also for validation.
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So we see that in the social media phenomenon, you know, people are looking for, at other people
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and trying to figure out what are they doing and, you know, am I doing what they're doing?
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And so, so, you know, another person, we had the minister, we interviewed him.
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We also interviewed a woman who has been a therapist for 60 years and seeing, you know,
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clients over the span of a really long period of time.
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And she framed the issue as, you know, being that we're, we're really in a race to adapt
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The demands of modern life have, have, have changed so, so drastically in the last 30 years
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And I think that's why the minister from Minnesota, when we interviewed him, you know, he, he said
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They're not sure, they're running out of coping skills.
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And, and when people run out of coping skills, it shows up as overwhelm and anxiety.
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And, and they, you know, what happens from there is, you know, people have a harder time making
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decisions, sorting through options, you know, they, it just, it gums up the system.
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So you guys make the case that, you know, the past few decades, the, the focus on how
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to manage this anxiety and sense of overwhelm is, you know, managing stress, stress reduction
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And, and, and we're not really saying that, that those things are the wrong approach.
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Managing stress is important and, you know, we all need, we all need to do that.
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But what we're trying to get at in the book is that people are struggling with almost too
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So there, there are lots and lots of, of things being written that, that essentially are recommending
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people add more things to their to-do list, you know, do this, you know, don't do that.
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And so in some respects, we, we frame the problem, not as, you know, you need to do this and don't
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But really the problem is that people are feeling that they've lost the capacity to think for
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And we wanted to write in many respects, this is an ambitious undertaking.
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We wanted to write almost the granddad of, of, of, of, of all personal growth, self-help books,
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which is, you know, helping people think more for themselves, having more confidence in their
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We're giving people overarching principles to put into place in their lives, to guide them.
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But really we're saying, you know, the goal here is for you to become the expert in your own life
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and develop the confidence to make decisions for yourself.
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The focus isn't on simply do, do this, this, and do, and don't do that.
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It's really about, you know, grabbing the, the, the bull by the horns and developing the,
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the sort of mental toughness to make better choices in your life.
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So that's, gets this to the title of the book, that's agency, right?
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I mean, I mean, we, we define agency as it's, it's the ability to act as an effective agent
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So everybody understands the concept of a, of a, of a talent agent or of a sports agent.
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You know, that, that's a person who, who helps, you know, guide someone along, helps them
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smooth the way for their career, opens doors for them, opportunities for them.
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So, so you understand the idea of, of, of an agent working for someone on their behalf.
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But what we're writing about is a concept that has long been discussed in, in the field
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And it's about the, the, the capacity that each of us has inside ourselves to be an effective
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And that's what we've been finding has, has been, you know, kind of declining, you know,
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as people, you know, struggle to adapt as they experience more anxiety and overwhelm, the
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capacity to, to, to find their agency and, and to, you know, put it into, into, into action
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So that's, that's really, you know, you, you, you, you, you've kind of get gotten to the
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nub of it, Brett, you know, with that question.
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Well, I mean, so, but are, is agency actually reducing or is it like people sense it?
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Cause like we live in an age now where you can like, you can customize shoes, however
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You can make an iPhone case, whatever you want it to say.
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Is, has agency actually reduced or do, is it just people are overwhelmed?
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And so they feel like their sense of agency is decreased.
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Well, that's, that's, you know, that, that, that deciding what, you know, is primary and
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what secondary is a part of your, your question, which is good.
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What's true of how we live today is there are more, we're faced with more choices.
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You know, there's, it's become a cliche to, to, to talk about the fact we live in the so-called
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information age, but we do, we live in an age where there are, there, there's enormous
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amount of information coming at us each and every day.
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And we are required as, as human beings to make choices each and every day in, in, in,
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And because of the sheer volume of information coming our way and, you know, the fact that
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the economy is changing, jobs are changing, there are more demands, more thinking demands,
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mental demands being placed on us than were existed 30 years ago.
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So, you know, psychologists call this the cognitive demands, which, which is just basically
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So in a lot of respects, you know, we have to be, our thinking skills matter more today
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And that's a function of living in, in this information age with so many things coming at
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us, so many messages, we have to get clear on, you know, what our priorities are.
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And what we talk about is the importance of being able to think clearly for oneself is,
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you know, that's the, that sort of forms the bedrock of having a sense of self-confidence.
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And when you have a sense of self-confidence, your anxiety goes down and your level of agency
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And so that's what we are trying to help people to find is, you know, find their, their, their
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confidence and allow their agency or their capacity to be an effective agent for themselves
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And it sounds like the way you've written about the book, agency is a skill that can be learned.
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And I feel like I've noticed something with younger people and even myself is that, you
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know, I grew up in the eighties and nineties and you were sort of told like, here's the
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Like you go to high school and then you take the SAT and then you go to college and then
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Like the really, I didn't have to make too many, like there were some choices, but you
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know, basically I had this pattern I had to follow and that was it.
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And so you have a lot of young people who haven't really had to exercise agency because
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they just follow whatever they're supposed to do.
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And now they're in this fast changing world where like the old pattern doesn't work.
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And now they having a hard time figuring out what to do now because they haven't really
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I think, I think what's true is over the last 30 years, a lot's been written on this, you
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know, kids are being raised with more and more structure all the time.
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So highly structured activities, you know, a lot of times very structured academic tracks.
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And so, you know, the idea behind that is to give kids a leg up, right?
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To, to increase their capabilities, to make them more competitive in, you know, the, the
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The downside of that, as you've pointed out really well is without structure, which is,
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you know, when you reach adulthood, there's a lot less structure, right?
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So we're seeing a lot of younger folks who, without the structure, they feel lost and
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So they don't bounce back as effectively as you'd like from setbacks.
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It's also for folks who are, who are older, who are further along in their careers, who
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are experiencing change that they need to adapt to, but agency can be learned is the bottom
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It's, there's no book out there that's really set up to teach agency.
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There's a lot of academic stuff on agency, on why it matters.
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And, you know, it's, it's basically integral to the human experience.
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And I think why it's coming up now is because people are really struggling to find it.
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And, you know, part of that is just, you know, we're really distracted.
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You know, everybody, you know, is trying to sell us something and it's very easy to kind
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And, you know, part of this is, is, is, is, is also, you know, what we define as how do
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I mean, you know, we were bombarded with images each and every day about what telling us, you
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And, you know, America is a very achievement oriented country in many respects, that's what's
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made us so strong, but too much of a good thing is not a good thing.
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And people being exposed to so many images of what success looks like, what it should look
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And so what we're, what we advocate in our book is people need to do some deep reflection
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Because it doesn't mean the same thing to everyone and it shouldn't mean the same thing
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So, you know, agency is partly about finding out where do you stand in, in your life, in
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terms of what matters to you and how you want to live.
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Cause there are lots of different ways to live, not just one way.
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And so it starts with, it starts with that, with, with getting some clarity on what's important
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Well, let's dig into how we can have more agency in our lives.
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So you, the book, the subtitle of the book, there's seven principles.
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What are those seven principles and talk about how they interact with one another?
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Yeah, the, the, there's seven simple, you know, basic sort of foundational principles
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to, to, to, that, that help keep people grounded.
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And the first three, we call behavioral principles, behavioral in the sense of, you know, they're,
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They're, you know, they're, they're things you can just start to do behaviorally in your
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The first one is called control stimuli, which is, it revolves around the idea of controlling
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the amount of stimulation you expose yourself to.
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The second principle is called associate selectively, which is paying attention to the people you
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Move means using your body, paying attention to your physical health, you know, eating well,
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getting enough rest and hitting the gym or running or, you know, whatever activities,
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whatever type of movement appeals to you, you know, get your body in motion.
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The next four, we call the cognitive principles, which are more about thinking and, and managing
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These are a little more complicated because they involve thinking and emotions.
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So the first of the cognitive principles is called position yourself as a learner.
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And the reason why this is one of our core principles is because our capacity to learn
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Then the idea of positioning yourself as a learner, what that implies is it's a, it's a
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We need to actively position ourselves to learn in all situations from, from all people.
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So learning is, is, is, is integral to a sense of agency.
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The next principle is called manage your emotions and your beliefs.
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You know, how do we determine if, if, if, if our emotions and our beliefs are where they,
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Because I mean, one of the key findings of our, of our book, of our research is that when
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our minds and our bodies physically are in balance, our decision-making improves.
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And when our decision-making improves, we then create a life that's more along the lines
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of what matters to us, what, what, what, you know, what, what we want in our lives.
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So when your emotions and your beliefs are out of whack, it's hard to, to be grounded.
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So this is one of the very important principle, and there's lots of things you can do in terms
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of better managing emotions and, and, and beliefs.
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You know, the bottom line here is, you know, we are more, we are emotional creatures, primarily
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human beings are herd animals also, which is, I think, under-emphasized and being a herd
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Just think of wild horses out, out in the wide open spaces, right?
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We, we, we often don't, I don't think acknowledge that.
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And so, you know, when you're exposed to people who, you know, have high emotions, you know,
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you start to take on some of those emotions yourself.
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So being careful about that, you know, being aware of that is, is, is very important.
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Checking your intuition means doing a gut check.
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You know, what, what's my gut telling me and making sure you use that information wisely,
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which is to say not impulsively, but as a source of additional data in making decision.
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And then the final and sort of pinnacle practice is we call deliberate, then act, which the bottom
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line with this final principle is that you want to separate your thinking and deliberation
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from your taking action, especially on really important decisions.
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So when you need to make an important call, give thought to how are, how am I actually going
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to make this decision and, and separate that from taking action and then figure out, okay,
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so once I've made the decision, how do I put that into, into action?
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One of the chapters that really stood out to me was the idea of controlling stimuli.
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So what are the types of stimuli that we need to manage in order to help increase our
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And the reason this is the first principle is because, you know, you need to have a clear
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head in order to really do anything of value in your life, right?
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I mean, if your head is clogged with all kinds of, of, of information and distraction, it's
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really hard to, to kind of be effective in be present and make good decisions.
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The other reason why this is our first principle is that, you know, when you achieve this,
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when you're able to keep more of a clear head, it allows you to use the other principles.
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So, you know, there's, there's a lot of things that, that you can do here, many different
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techniques, you know, some common ones that more and more people are starting to do that,
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that I'm seeing is, you know, putting your phone away, putting it in a box or in a drawer
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You know, what we found is out of sight, out of mind is really good when it comes to electronic
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You know, from our interviews with, with all, with all kinds of people in different walks
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of life, you know, we arrived at a place that was a little scary, which is that, you know,
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more and more we are like trained monkeys tethered to devices that prompt us at all hours of the
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day, you know, where we put our attention is literally everything.
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It's the most important decision you make for yourself and in your life.
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So if you are literally being led around by devices and your attention is simply going
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where other people are prompting it to go, you're not going to be in control of your life.
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You're not going to feel great ultimately, and your level of agency is going to decline.
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So simple, simple acts of just, you know, putting that phone away out of sight for periods
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One other piece of advice in terms of devices, you know, which is that a lot of times when
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you want to reach out for your device, do something different, move your body instead, get up, take
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You know, a lot of times we reach for a device when we need a moment to recharge and reaching
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So another thing to focus on in terms of controlling stimuli is do less multitasking, do more what
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I was backing out of my garage yesterday and, you know, my phone was going off.
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And I was having to angle my car to avoid the mound of snow.
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And in any case, you know, my phone was beeping and getting a text message.
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So, you know, not paying close attention, I nicked the mirror onto the side of the garage.
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And, you know, it's an example, you know, a concrete, simple example.
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What can happen when we're doing too many things at one time and our attention is divided?
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So, you know, there's a lot of research that suggests when we are multitasking, we actually
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think we're doing a lot better than, in fact, we really are.
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And so we want to, you know, one of the other, you know, as I said, simple practice here in
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There's tons of other things in the book, other things you can do to control the stimuli
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But the bottom line here is in terms of technology, because technology has been a game changer and
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it has a lot to do with why controlling stimuli has become such an important thing for all
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You want to make sure that you're using technology rather than letting technology use you.
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And, you know, this is something I bet you can relate to, Brett, because it seems to me
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that, and this is more just an inference I'm drawing, it seems to me that you're someone
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who uses technology as opposed to letting it use you.
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So, you know, you find ways to productively employ it to enhance your life and you probably
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try to limit the downside of it, you know, invading your life.
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I've used apps to like control, like, well, actually I don't have Instagram on my phone.
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I don't, I don't, I don't look at Twitter really anymore.
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Facebook don't use that anymore because I just didn't, wasn't bringing me any value.
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Now those are really great examples of controlling stimuli and it become, it's become much, much
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And, you know, for each person, there are different things to do, different ways to go
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It's not a one size fits all thing, but to your credit, I mean, you, you know, you actually
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made some very clear choices and I'm sure you probably reflected on those choices before
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you, you, you acted on them and, and made them for a good reason.
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You know, I, I got off of Facebook four years ago and you know, the, the strange thing is
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I was not a heavy user of Facebook, but the strange thing is just thinking about doing
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I was like, I was like, you know, like, wow, well, what, what am I, what am I, what, what
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What will I be missing by making that decision?
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And, you know, it was strange because, you know, again, not being a heavy user, it wasn't
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like it was that, it wasn't that, it was that important to me.
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But once I made the decision and did it, I never looked back and I, and I frankly didn't
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miss it, but you know, the thing is, is that, you know, there's an opportunity cost, which
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is an economic principle for every decision we make.
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And the opportunity cost is if, you know, when you say yes to something, you're in effect
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So when you're on social media, just for example, since we're talking about it, when you say
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yes to social media and you're, if you spend an hour, two hours on it every day, that's two
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So, you know, there's, and there's a huge cost to that.
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So in any case, it's, you know, that's, that's an important topic in its own right on how to
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control stimuli and, you know, all the different ways to do it and all the different, you know,
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the ways that you do it, Brett, the ways that, you know, other people do it.
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It's, it's, and it is a really, really critical thing for us today.
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We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.
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Well, let's talk about the next principle, which is associate selectively.
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How do the people we choose to associate with influence our sense of agency?
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And this is a, one of the, the more critical principles as well.
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The main reason is we pick up the emotional states of other people.
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When other people around us are confident, happy, motivated, open, we, we are too.
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So if you're surrounded by people who are not those things, if you're surrounded by people who
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are depressed, angry, you know, negative most of the time, you're going to become that way
00:27:46.000
And we all have these, these mirror neurons that, that function and we, we don't have full
00:27:51.900
We just don't, the other important thing about associating selectively and you know, what
00:27:57.280
that means is, I mean, to associate selectively, what it means is actively choosing the people
00:28:01.820
that you have in your life and especially the people that are closest to you.
00:28:06.560
You know, you've got some great information on your website about the different types of
00:28:11.040
friendships, especially the types of friendships men have.
00:28:13.820
And, you know, how many people generally we have in our closest circle, the common number
00:28:21.920
is five people, six people are sort of in our, our inner circle.
00:28:26.160
Those people closest to us have an enormous effect on our level of agency.
00:28:32.400
The other thing that's critical here is isolation for human beings is like kryptonite.
00:28:38.920
It's, you know, it's, it's, it really, really diminishes our agency.
00:28:44.600
And that's why, you know, agency really is always expressed, you know, with and through
00:28:53.800
So it's both about making sure you're not isolated, making sure that the inner circle of
00:29:00.680
folks really are supportive, you know, confident, motivated people, people you can learn from
00:29:11.420
And if you can't fix a relationship, that's gotten really negative, you know, we're not
00:29:16.100
suggesting you abandon people when they become difficult at all.
00:29:19.700
You know, that's not, that, that's not appropriate, but if you can't get relationships onto a better
00:29:25.440
path, then limit the amount of time you spend with those people.
00:29:29.140
Or if you absolutely have to move on because those people are really going to cost you a lot.
00:29:34.420
So, so anyway, that's, that, that's what associate selectively means.
00:29:38.580
There's a lot of different ways to, you know, as you read, if you read the chapter, you know,
00:29:42.760
there are a lot of different ways to practice associating selectively in your life.
00:29:46.820
But it's, it's probably the most important decision that you're going to make is, is who
00:29:53.140
And it can be the hardest one too, because like you said, there might be some really good
00:29:56.560
friends or even family members who are bringing you down.
00:29:59.580
And in order for you to move on in your life, you might have to separate yourself a bit from
00:30:06.820
It can be very painful, but it starts with an awareness of, you know, sort of a taking
00:30:11.680
stock of who's in my life, you know, who, who in my life really supports me?
00:30:16.060
Who in my life do I learn from who in my life kind of gets me motivated and charged up, you
00:30:21.940
know, each and every day, do I have anyone, you know, if I don't have anyone, that's a
00:30:29.220
And so, you know, there's ways to, you know, set boundaries, set limits on, on some of the
00:30:34.060
people who are really negative, you know, for certain family members, you know, it's
00:30:38.340
You don't, you don't cut family members out of your life entirely, but there are ways to
00:30:45.780
So you're not, you know, you don't, you don't fall into the same traps over and over.
00:30:50.520
And again, also having really, you know, good quality people in your life who support you
00:30:58.320
Those people can make up for, you know, other people who have a more negative influence.
00:31:02.720
But yeah, this is, this is a, this is an important one.
00:31:05.340
Again, people you surround yourself with, I want to make really good choices there.
00:31:09.740
Well, in a book about making choices for yourself, I was surprised to find a chapter on just
00:31:14.460
movement, exercise, moving your body, taking care of yourself.
00:31:26.520
You know, we need our brains, our brains or we need their brains each and every day.
00:31:31.800
Obviously it sounds silly to say it, but you know, our brains are, are the thing that,
00:31:36.500
that make us unique and anything that helps us, you know, in terms of allowing our brain
00:31:50.400
Anything from a brisk walk, you know, on up will increase the blood flow to the brain.
00:32:01.080
It basically, it's the thing that, that allows our brain to function at its best.
00:32:06.500
So we're designed to be, we're designed to move.
00:32:09.840
I mean, we are designed to be in motion as, as people.
00:32:14.520
And what's happened is, you know, over the last, this is, you know, true for the last
00:32:19.200
30 years in particular, we've become much more sedentary.
00:32:26.360
Now, you know, there are plenty of people who don't, who practice movement, but there are
00:32:30.160
a lot of people on a cultural level, on a, you know, population wide level.
00:32:34.560
Many, many more people are spending more time sitting.
00:32:41.040
A lot of it has to do with, you know, devices because most often, you know, we're sitting
00:32:49.140
You know, you've seen, obviously you've seen people walking while looking at a device
00:32:52.820
and, and you've probably seen that that doesn't always work out so well.
00:32:56.460
And, um, so, you know, uh, there's a lot of information out there about the importance
00:33:04.900
But when we say movement, we mean something that goes beyond just physical movement.
00:33:09.660
And what we mean is paying attention to your physical body and what it needs to be, you
00:33:19.020
So, you know, it's like taking your car in for service, right?
00:33:22.500
I mean, there are, there are a lot of men, you know, I know who, who, who keep their
00:33:26.660
car in better working order than they do their own physical bodies.
00:33:39.840
You know, there's a lot of research about how chronically sleep deprived most Americans
00:33:44.940
That is really a problem because when we're sleep deprived, we actually lose IQ points.
00:33:54.160
It sets us up for chronic illness later in life.
00:33:58.620
So there are a lot of things, simple things to pay attention to here in the, in the move
00:34:04.320
chapter, which is essentially, you know, all related to your physical body.
00:34:09.360
Because the bottom line here is your, our physical bodies are connected to our brains.
00:34:14.400
So, you know, again, principle, overall overarching principle, the book, you know, when, when we
00:34:21.040
are in better balance physically and mentally, we show up in life differently and, you know,
00:34:27.880
we have higher levels of agency and we make better decisions for ourselves.
00:34:32.400
And I think the other thing it does too, by exercising regularly or choosing to take care
00:34:36.760
of yourself is that it increases your sense of agency because you're exercising your agency
00:34:43.740
No, that, that's, I really, that's a beautiful thing you just said, I, you know, because when
00:34:50.220
we are sitting, you know, we essentially are in some ways communicating that we're stuck
00:34:57.060
and more and more people, you know, people I coach in my work, we talk about this, you
00:35:02.500
know, when I ask them to review, well, tell me about a typical day in your life, what is
00:35:07.380
And, you know, I pay attention to how much time are they actually, you know, moving around.
00:35:13.660
And for a lot of people who feel very stuck in their lives, simply moving more has a, has,
00:35:23.860
You know, again, movement boosts creativity and fluid thinking.
00:35:30.500
And, you know, if you're sedentary for long periods of time, it basically can produce what
00:35:36.340
the psychologist Martin Seligman referred to as learned helplessness, which is that, you
00:35:41.460
know, you just don't, you know, you feel trapped, you, you feel stuck.
00:35:46.600
And so, you know, it's very important to, to move your body.
00:35:52.000
If you, you know, you sit around for a day or two and don't do much of anything, you
00:35:56.520
start, you don't start to, you start not feeling so great, right?
00:35:59.540
Your thinking is less clear, you know, your emotions can get out of whack.
00:36:04.160
The other point I'll make, you know, on, on the chapter on move is the importance of being
00:36:08.720
outdoors, getting time in nature, because part of, you know, what's happened over the last
00:36:14.100
30 years is not just that we are sitting too much, but we're also indoors too much.
00:36:19.740
So getting outside is so beneficial to our sense of agency.
00:36:25.620
It improves our mood, it improves our creativity.
00:36:29.880
So, you know, get outdoors and even if literally just if it's for 10 minutes, it can be a game
00:36:38.860
Let's talk about a few of the cognitive principles.
00:36:41.100
And the first one you talked about is positioning yourself as a learner.
00:36:44.820
What does that look like and why is that important to increasing agency?
00:36:48.240
Yeah, you know, this is something that has become more important now than, than ever before.
00:36:59.080
We talked about this, you know, I talked about this a little earlier.
00:37:01.960
The bottom line with this principle is when we are well-informed, we make better decisions.
00:37:07.240
So our book teaches you how to get the best information.
00:37:12.920
We also help you to identify your best learning style.
00:37:18.860
There's, there, there are a few different learning styles.
00:37:21.440
It's really useful for all of us to know how we learn best.
00:37:25.180
You know, again, back to the point I made earlier about living in the information age,
00:37:32.480
So the, anything we do that can expand our capacity to learn increases our personal power.
00:37:43.240
So it's really, really important to think about how to best position yourself to learn.
00:37:50.700
And we can learn throughout every, each of our, each day we can learn.
00:37:56.060
There's opportunities learning from the people around us.
00:37:58.800
There's always opportunities to pick up new information just by being curious and opening
00:38:07.520
And again, this increases agency because our capacity to take things in and learn allows
00:38:18.740
So, you know, one thing I wanted to mention, your interview with, with Mike Rowe was interesting
00:38:23.860
to me because Mike makes a good case for, you know, they're different, they're different
00:38:30.180
ways that, that people learn and, and, and express agency in their lives.
00:38:35.060
Not everybody, you know, not everyone's talent is expressed by sitting at a desk and, and college
00:38:42.620
is not necessarily, traditional college is not necessarily for everyone either.
00:38:46.940
And so a lot of people ask me, well, you know, in this information age, you know, everyone's
00:38:55.360
And to some extent, it's easy to see how, how people come to that determination because
00:39:01.320
one of the better things about attending college is ideally it teaches you how to think
00:39:09.080
It's not so much about all the information you learn there, but it's, it's, it's teaching
00:39:16.360
So there are other ways, however, to learn how to think and to learn how to learn.
00:39:23.740
So what we talk about in our book is learn how you learn best, you know, get, get, increase
00:39:30.660
your level of awareness of that and make sure you incorporate learning into, you know, your,
00:39:36.520
your, your everyday experience and make good choices around how you educate yourself and,
00:39:42.640
and realize it's not, it's not necessarily a one size fits all approach.
00:39:46.880
I imagine just learning how to learn is going to be like the skill that will allow you to
00:39:51.000
have more agency in today's world because jobs are always changing.
00:39:57.300
Like what worked 10 years ago doesn't work today.
00:40:00.260
And that's probably why a lot of people in their careers feel overwhelmed.
00:40:03.120
They're like, well, man, like that stuff I learned in college or when I first started
00:40:08.700
They don't know what to do because they never really learned how to learn.
00:40:11.640
But so if you're constantly positioning yourself as a learner, you're able to adapt as
00:40:19.900
And if you, if you, if you, if you pay attention to how you learn and you, you know, develop
00:40:27.780
a habit of learning in your everyday life, that helps you to adapt to whatever comes down
00:40:37.380
And I think you said it well, Brett, there's a statistic that speaks to this as well, that
00:40:42.040
kids, kids born today, you know, more than 50% of the jobs that are out there will no
00:40:51.400
So for someone born today, it's really in some ways impossible to prepare them for a specific
00:40:58.980
So we're better off helping kids to develop greater agency, which is to say, helping them
00:41:07.900
to, to be able to better adapt to whatever comes along.
00:41:12.600
And the capacity to learn is really, you know, probably the most important thing there in
00:41:18.120
terms of helping you to be more adaptable in your, in your life.
00:41:22.040
So you mentioned at the beginning earlier in the show that managing your emotions is one
00:41:26.240
of the cognitive skills, that's really hard, but it probably has one of the, just like
00:41:32.680
So why is being aware of our emotions and knowing how to manage those an important part
00:41:40.820
You know, I think that sometimes we, you know, we, we, we under emphasize that or forget
00:41:45.260
that, but we're living in a world that is more and more complex every day, you know, more
00:41:51.920
and more information, you know, that we have to, to deal with.
00:41:56.840
And, you know, we, again, we, we're emotional creatures, you know, a lot of people feel things
00:42:03.320
first and, and our feeling affects our thinking, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're
00:42:10.360
So the reason why managing your emotions and beliefs is one of the core principles of agency
00:42:15.860
is that emotions are the strongest things happening in our heads.
00:42:24.160
They can take us down blind alleys if we're not self-aware.
00:42:28.820
So this capacity to, to kind of reflect on your feelings, to understand better why you feel
00:42:35.860
the way you do really helps to ensure that, you know, you have your emotions rather than
00:42:44.920
your emotions have you, because when our emotions are, are in charge, it often leads to less
00:42:54.820
So in other words, said, said differently, when we apply some thinking to our emotions, we
00:43:05.440
So that's, that's the, the bottom line with emotions and beliefs.
00:43:08.660
And the other point I'll make in terms, in terms of beliefs is, you know, beliefs are
00:43:14.220
better off when we actually question them and update them over time.
00:43:19.420
You know, as we learn more, as we grow, we sometimes need to update our beliefs.
00:43:25.360
You know, we talk, we talk about the difference in the, in the book about the difference in values
00:43:33.040
The things we value, the things we think of as, you know, most important, sort of unchanging
00:43:39.700
Beliefs are, are sort of, you know, connect, they're connected to emotion and they're connected
00:43:46.080
And if we're actually learning in our lives, we will modify some of the things we believe
00:43:53.220
And, and that helps us navigate in the world better because when we, we navigate in the world
00:43:58.340
with outdated beliefs, you know, we don't make good decisions for ourselves.
00:44:02.220
So it's important to, you know, to kind of realize the, how, how beliefs and emotions
00:44:11.400
And when you understand that relationship better, again, you make better choices for yourself.
00:44:16.200
Well, agency, you know, it comes down to making choices and taking action on those choices.
00:44:20.680
The problem is, you know, as we said earlier, a lot of young people, they haven't, they don't
00:44:26.040
have like a lot of, they haven't had a lot of practice making meat, like those really important
00:44:38.680
You know, interestingly enough, most of us are not trained or don't get educated specifically
00:44:50.020
You know, it's, it's very interesting to me that we don't get more, you know, along the
00:44:56.160
way in school, you know, in high school and, you know, whether we're, and then whether we
00:45:04.240
In some ways, you know, learning more specifically about how to make better decisions is, it's so
00:45:09.640
important to the, to determining what kind of life you have.
00:45:13.260
Because at the end of the day, you know, in many respects, we, we are the sum total of
00:45:22.100
So getting better at making decisions is pretty important.
00:45:26.600
So what we recommend in the book is using a process, having, having a framework to make
00:45:35.340
And again, these are the decisions that are, that are, that are, you know, not for each
00:45:39.260
and every decision, like whether you're going to the supermarket to buy, you know, a can of
00:45:44.440
peas, it's for the important decisions you're going to make, use a framework.
00:45:49.300
We provide one in the book, actually, a fairly simple framework.
00:45:53.640
We interviewed a judge, a detective, doctors, some business people to understand how these
00:46:01.920
expert decision makers arrive at their judgments.
00:46:08.280
And the interesting thing about it is, you know, everybody can become a better decision
00:46:16.280
So I think the issue is that, you know, again, it doesn't receive enough focus or attention.
00:46:22.400
So, you know, when you actually do focus on how you make a decision, you know, you actually
00:46:29.680
can make, the quality of your decisions will go, will go up.
00:46:33.460
So we talk a lot about in this chapter about being aware of the common thinking traps or
00:46:44.780
And, you know, there's some really terrific research out there that's been conducted over
00:46:48.380
the last 20 years or so on decision making, on the human capacity for decision making.
00:46:54.960
And, you know, the results are pretty startling, which, you know, the bottom line is, you know,
00:47:00.140
we, we actually are not as good at decision making as we think we are.
00:47:06.800
And, you know, I see it in my work, you know, with, with people who often work in business,
00:47:12.160
lots of bad decisions get made each and every day.
00:47:14.300
So improving your hit rate there will improve the quality of your life.
00:47:19.160
The big takeaway for me from that chapter was understanding that our brain likes to be lazy
00:47:24.380
when making decisions so that we rely on these biases or heuristics that in some situations
00:47:32.040
But when you're making like long-term, really important decisions, like you actually don't
00:47:38.700
You want to slow things down and actually, so you can be more effective, right?
00:47:43.680
So it's going to be, either things are going to be a little more clunky, it's going to be
00:47:46.720
more intentional, it's going to feel harder, but that, and that lets you know you're, you're
00:47:52.220
actually using that prefrontal cortex of yours that makes you a human.
00:47:56.040
So instead of just relying on your emotions and sort of those biases that we have.
00:48:01.400
I mean, simply slowing down the thinking process, you know, can have enormous benefit because
00:48:08.060
we all, to your point, we all prefer as human beings to engage in what we call fast thinking.
00:48:16.980
This, this all comes from research, you know, really terrific research done by Daniel Kahneman
00:48:22.580
and Amos Tversky, two psychologists who did a really deep dive on human decision-making.
00:48:29.280
And, you know, they basically have a two, a two-stage model that they built upon, which
00:48:35.460
is the idea that system one thinking is fast thinking, which is more intuitive, more automatic.
00:48:48.220
To engage effectively in system two thinking, you need to slow things down.
00:48:53.420
And certain decisions really require system two thinking.
00:48:57.960
You know, there's some decisions we make that it's okay to be automatic.
00:49:03.180
It's okay to be, you know, you don't have to give them a tremendous amount of thought.
00:49:07.680
You know, like again, back to the supermarket, you're picking up a can of peas.
00:49:10.980
It's not a big deal either way, you know, which can of peas you end up with.
00:49:14.920
But, you know, when you're making an important career decision or, you know, you're thinking
00:49:19.300
about, you know, getting married or you're making a really important life decision, that's
00:49:25.280
really important to give some thought to, you know, how you're making that decision.
00:49:29.400
And that requires employing what's called system two thinking, just slowing things down,
00:49:34.480
using all your human capability to apply to that decision.
00:49:40.500
And so, you know, again, the bottom line here is that, you know, we as human beings have
00:49:45.420
a lot of capability within us that's undeveloped.
00:49:50.340
And agency is the capacity to pull all of that together, all of our ability, all of our
00:49:58.800
capacity as human beings, pull it all together and make use of it to make good choices and
00:50:08.860
So that we create a life on our terms, not on somebody else's terms, not on, you know,
00:50:15.120
what someone on Instagram or Facebook or, you know, what somebody else has defined as being
00:50:31.220
You know, agency is making these decisions for yourself.
00:50:39.740
And so Deliberate and Then Act, the final chapter of the book, is really where it all
00:50:46.180
And it's designed to help you to become a much better decision maker in your life.
00:50:52.900
Well, I think a lot of people, there might be not a lot of people, I think some people,
00:50:57.260
Do the deliberation part, but they have trouble taking action on that decision.
00:51:03.260
Like, what's stopping them from taking action and how do you get over that hump?
00:51:07.600
Well, it's a really good question because I think, you know, some people, and we've all
00:51:12.580
probably come across these people, you know, they're smart, they seem really able, and,
00:51:16.900
you know, they're people who make good decisions, but then don't act on them.
00:51:22.180
And, you know, we talk about the four large impediments to taking action in your life.
00:51:28.680
And, you know, one of them, not surprisingly, is procrastination.
00:51:43.740
And so that prevents them from taking the best actions.
00:51:47.940
Obsession and perfectionism are the two other impediments.
00:51:53.000
When we obsess over something, you know, we are trying to make sure we're making the perfect
00:52:00.040
decision, you know, and we can't, you know, pull the trigger and just move forward.
00:52:06.380
So, you know, these are probably four most common reasons, common things that get in the way
00:52:15.760
And, you know, they all have, they all produce different outcomes and people have different
00:52:23.940
There's some people who are more obsessive, you know, in their thinking.
00:52:26.900
They're constantly thinking about, well, but on the other hand, or, you know, well, what
00:52:35.160
Then you got people who, you know, are so impulsive that they literally make a decision and they can
00:52:42.360
move into action too quickly and then regret it.
00:52:46.560
So, and then you have your procrastinators who basically just try to, you know, avoid or defer,
00:52:52.860
you know, even thinking about something till the last minute.
00:52:56.240
So there's, you know, these are just some of the things that get in our way of putting good
00:53:05.060
And the book talks about these things and how to get around them.
00:53:09.100
You know, the bottom line is, you know, there's a lot of low-hanging fruit in terms, for most
00:53:14.820
people, in terms of how they can be better, both at making decisions and then taking action
00:53:23.040
And these things, you know, getting better at this stuff, you know, it simply requires
00:53:28.520
And, you know, with some focused attention to it, you know, anyone can become a much better
00:53:33.820
And that leads to greater confidence and greater happiness.
00:53:39.900
And, you know, it's really flexing your agency muscle, you know, because confidence, you know,
00:53:49.380
And it is the kind of antidote to the anxiety and overwhelm that everyone's experiencing these
00:53:56.740
And, you know, that's really kind of what we designed the book for, is for people to
00:54:03.040
not be stuck, for people to, you know, again, kind of more actively grab the bull by the
00:54:10.880
horns and think about their lives, think about what matters to them, and get busy creating
00:54:19.400
So, anyway, it's a lot to think about, but really, bottom line here is, you know, we focus
00:54:26.100
more on principles with this book, as opposed to, you know, specific to-do items.
00:54:31.620
So, basically, you know, I think when, you know, our assumption there is, you know, when
00:54:36.220
people have, like, you know, when they understand why they're doing something, which is, you know,
00:54:41.960
the principles, when they understand why this matters, they then can put that into use in
00:54:47.620
their lives, and it will influence, you know, how they go about everything, and as opposed
00:54:54.600
to us telling them, you know, do this, don't do that, and, you know, which oftentimes can
00:55:02.800
So, you know, again, the book was written to help people simply become much better at
00:55:09.140
making life choices and, you know, creating a life on their terms and moving away.
00:55:16.800
A lot of times that means moving away from the herd, not doing what everybody else is
00:55:20.980
doing, and, you know, and finding out, you know, what matters to you, you know, what floats
00:55:28.460
Because, you know, among the people we interviewed for this book, we found all kinds of people
00:55:32.880
doing really interesting things, things you never would think of.
00:55:36.880
And, you know, that came from them, you know, developing a greater sense of agency in their
00:55:43.760
So we thought, you know, we share this with other people, this is going to really help.
00:55:50.000
So ultimately, that's our goal, is to help people to defeat overwhelm and anxiety, to feel
00:55:57.960
less stuck, and to create a life that is really uniquely theirs.
00:56:04.920
Well, Paul, where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?
00:56:10.920
It's called The Power of Agency, The Seven Principles to Conquer Obstacles, Make Effective
00:56:16.400
Decisions, and Create a Life on Your Own Terms.
00:56:18.960
We also have a website, which is powerofagency.com.
00:56:22.820
We have developed a short instrument, a test that you can take to measure your level of
00:56:31.920
So that, if you buy the book, you can take the test for free in the book.
00:56:35.900
If you go to our website, you can actually take the first of the subtests, which measures
00:56:43.760
And you'll get a brief report that describes your results.
00:56:49.340
So we also have, we were guests on the podcast, Better at Everything, and they released that
00:56:58.500
The Move Principle was released today by the Better at Everything folks.
00:57:04.740
So there's lots of ways to learn about the book.
00:57:10.120
And again, I think this is, in some ways, has particular meaning to men, because I didn't
00:57:17.020
mention this at the beginning, but men are struggling right now.
00:57:21.800
There's a lot of data on the fact that men are falling behind women in a lot of key measures,
00:57:34.920
And we wrote this book as a way to help all people, but particularly to help men, to get
00:57:43.600
a leg up, and to better adapt to the world we live in today.
00:57:49.820
It's why our publisher has described the book as, really, it's the seven habits for highly
00:57:56.440
effective people a generation later, 30 years after that book was published.
00:58:01.960
Our book is designed to help people navigate in a 24-7, plugged-in world, which didn't exist
00:58:17.700
And we wanted to write a book that talks about what those people are doing differently, and
00:58:23.240
why it is that they seem to be adapting better, and what we can all learn from them.
00:58:29.000
So this is our effort to do that and put it out there.
00:58:33.420
So yeah, you can buy the book anywhere books are sold.
00:58:35.740
And I hope people continue listening to your podcast, Brett, because you've got invaluable
00:58:44.120
They're incredibly fun and enlightening, all the topics you cover.
00:58:49.720
So that's another way to position yourself as a learner, is get out there and expose yourself
00:58:56.600
to new ideas, and that will increase your level of agency.
00:59:07.580
He's the co-author of the book, The Power of Agency.
00:59:10.020
It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.
00:59:12.420
You can find more information about his work at his website, powerofagency.com.
00:59:16.480
Also, check out our show notes at aom.is slash agency, where you can find links to resources,
00:59:29.800
Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast.
00:59:32.820
Check out our website at artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives.
00:59:36.540
There's over 500 there, as well as thousands of articles written over the years on things
00:59:40.220
like that relate to agency, how to make better decisions, how to be assertive, things like
00:59:43.920
And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate it if you take one minute to give us a review
00:59:50.700
Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you think would get something
00:59:54.540
As always, thank you for the continued support.
00:59:56.540
Until next time, this is Brett McKay reminding you not only to listen to the AOM podcast, but
01:00:25.000
You can maybe film it that way from each other.
01:00:28.880
There's enough information in your près, because there's enough trunk to you be still up to you.