The Art of Manliness - #507： How to Increase Your Personal Agency

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.160 Many people today are feeling stressed or overwhelmed by life.

00:00:14.360 The typical approach to treating these issues is to learn how to manage one's symptoms through

00:00:18.100 things like mindfulness or meditation.

00:00:20.160 My guest today argues that mere management is insufficient.

00:00:23.100 Instead, we need to tackle the root of what's causing us to feel anxious, stuck, and generally

00:00:26.560 lost, and a decreasing sense of agency.

00:00:28.840 His name is Dr. Paul Knapper, and he's a psychologist and the co-author of the book, The Power of

00:00:32.960 Agency, The Seven Principles to Conquer Obstacles, Make Effective Decisions, and Create a Life

00:00:37.600 on Your Own Terms.

00:00:38.620 Today on the show, Paul makes the case that the reason more and more people feel like

00:00:41.820 they're floundering is that they don't have a strong sense of personal agency.

00:00:45.500 Paul explains what he means by agency and why learning how to get better at thinking, acting,

00:00:49.580 and making choices for yourself can be the real key to feeling less stuck in life.

00:00:53.760 Paul and I then discuss the seven overarching principles of increasing your agency, as

00:00:57.160 well as tactics to put them into practice.

00:00:59.280 After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is.agency.

00:01:03.280 Paul joins me now via clearcast.io.

00:01:13.700 All right, Paul Knapper, welcome to the show.

00:01:16.220 Thanks very much, Brett.

00:01:17.040 So you are the co-author of a new book, The Power of Agency, The Seven Principles to Conquer

00:01:22.840 Obstacles, Make Effective Decisions, and Create a Life on Your Own Terms.

00:01:26.640 So you're a psychologist.

00:01:28.040 You also co-wrote this with another psychologist.

00:01:30.180 You're in two different fields.

00:01:31.080 Your other, the co-writer is Anthony Rao.

00:01:33.020 So you both work in psychology.

00:01:34.660 You work in the field of management psychology.

00:01:37.100 Your co-author is a child and family psychologist.

00:01:40.140 And you start out the book saying that you've both seen a rise in anxiety and overwhelm amongst

00:01:46.060 your clients.

00:01:47.460 How has this been manifesting this itself in different ways to both of you guys?

00:01:52.080 Yeah, great question.

00:01:53.320 And it gets right to the heart of the book in terms of what we're trying to address.

00:01:59.680 In Anthony's practice, I call him Tony, he has seen in the folks that he, his patients,

00:02:10.340 he's seen, and primarily his patients are boys.

00:02:13.060 So families bring boys in who are experiencing some trouble.

00:02:17.300 Boys are actually overrepresented in therapy practices throughout the country.

00:02:23.600 And how it shows up in boys, overwhelm and anxiety, is the kids tend to get in trouble

00:02:29.240 in school.

00:02:30.900 Their grades go down.

00:02:32.260 They get angry.

00:02:34.340 More and more, they're escaping to screens.

00:02:36.600 Some of them, more and more, he's finding to actually go on strike and just basically want

00:02:43.380 to opt out of everything.

00:02:45.120 So he's seen that in kids, in the boys, in his practice.

00:02:49.240 What I see with the adults I work with, and again, I do executive coaching work helping

00:02:55.840 adults to realize their full career potential.

00:03:00.360 And what I see are people experiencing, you know, feeling stuck, you know, feeling periodic

00:03:06.640 overwhelm.

00:03:07.740 Some people, you know, experiencing overwhelm, you know, almost daily.

00:03:12.140 They're also kind of feeling a lack of decisiveness.

00:03:16.660 You know, a lot of people complaining that, you know, that they have the sense that outside

00:03:22.060 forces are more powerful than they are, and they just feel in some ways kind of powerless

00:03:27.960 to navigate in their lives.

00:03:31.560 So, you know, all in, I mean, both sort of, you know, younger folks and adults, you know,

00:03:40.200 many people are kind of struggling to find their place in the world.

00:03:42.620 So that's, that's, that's how it shows up.

00:03:46.140 And, you know, so bottom line is, you know, we wrote this book to help people who are feeling

00:03:52.700 that sense of, of stuckness.

00:03:54.660 Yeah.

00:03:55.080 Another one, one thing I thought was interesting, you also, you talked to like a minister and

00:03:59.560 this guy in the book says that one thing he's noticed in the past 10 to 15 years is that

00:04:03.640 more of the members in his congregation, like they're coming to him for help for things

00:04:08.080 that people wouldn't come to help, you know, come for help a couple of years ago.

00:04:11.200 And it's like, they just like, they don't know what to do.

00:04:13.980 Yeah.

00:04:14.120 There's like a lack of self-reliance.

00:04:16.860 That's right.

00:04:17.480 That's really, that's, that's really true.

00:04:19.380 We see that all over.

00:04:20.800 And, you know, in, in times of, of, of stress, you know, people turn to other people for help.

00:04:28.080 They, they look, they look to other people also for validation.

00:04:32.040 So we see that in the social media phenomenon, you know, people are looking for, at other people

00:04:38.360 and trying to figure out what are they doing and, you know, am I doing what they're doing?

00:04:45.220 And so, so, you know, another person, we had the minister, we interviewed him.

00:04:51.140 We also interviewed a woman who has been a therapist for 60 years and seeing, you know,

00:04:58.720 clients over the span of a really long period of time.

00:05:02.280 And she framed the issue as, you know, being that we're, we're really in a race to adapt

00:05:09.460 as a, as a culture.

00:05:11.380 The culture has changed so much.

00:05:13.260 The demands of modern life have, have, have changed so, so drastically in the last 30 years

00:05:19.940 that as she put it, we're in a race to adapt.

00:05:22.760 And I think that's why the minister from Minnesota, when we interviewed him, you know, he, he said

00:05:29.360 the same thing.

00:05:30.120 People are hungry for advice.

00:05:31.860 They're not sure, they're running out of coping skills.

00:05:34.400 And, and when people run out of coping skills, it shows up as overwhelm and anxiety.

00:05:41.580 And, and they, you know, what happens from there is, you know, people have a harder time making

00:05:47.380 decisions, sorting through options, you know, they, it just, it gums up the system.

00:05:55.000 So you guys make the case that, you know, the past few decades, the, the focus on how

00:05:59.500 to manage this anxiety and sense of overwhelm is, you know, managing stress, stress reduction

00:06:04.900 things.

00:06:05.440 But you guys say that's the wrong approach.

00:06:06.940 Why do you think it's the wrong approach?

00:06:08.560 Well, this is a good question also.

00:06:10.280 And, and, and we're not really saying that, that those things are the wrong approach.

00:06:15.280 Managing stress is important and, you know, we all need, we all need to do that.

00:06:21.040 But what we're trying to get at in the book is that people are struggling with almost too

00:06:27.520 much on their plates, too many things to do.

00:06:30.800 So there, there are lots and lots of, of things being written that, that essentially are recommending

00:06:39.040 people add more things to their to-do list, you know, do this, you know, don't do that.

00:06:43.880 And people are already overwhelmed.

00:06:46.260 And so in some respects, we, we frame the problem, not as, you know, you need to do this and don't

00:06:53.280 do that.

00:06:53.880 But really the problem is that people are feeling that they've lost the capacity to think for

00:06:59.340 themselves.

00:07:00.420 And we wanted to write in many respects, this is an ambitious undertaking.

00:07:04.780 We wanted to write almost the granddad of, of, of, of, of all personal growth, self-help books,

00:07:10.320 which is, you know, helping people think more for themselves, having more confidence in their

00:07:15.380 capacity to make choices for themselves.

00:07:18.980 So they figure out what they need to do.

00:07:21.300 We're giving people overarching principles to put into place in their lives, to guide them.

00:07:27.200 But really we're saying, you know, the goal here is for you to become the expert in your own life

00:07:32.280 and develop the confidence to make decisions for yourself.

00:07:36.260 So, so that's a little bit different.

00:07:37.860 The focus isn't on simply do, do this, this, and do, and don't do that.

00:07:42.580 It's really about, you know, grabbing the, the, the bull by the horns and developing the,

00:07:48.960 the sort of mental toughness to make better choices in your life.

00:07:52.980 All right.

00:07:53.500 So it's all about making choices on your own.

00:07:55.720 So that's, gets this to the title of the book, that's agency, right?

00:07:58.880 That is agency.

00:08:00.120 I mean, I mean, we, we define agency as it's, it's the ability to act as an effective agent

00:08:06.600 for yourself.

00:08:07.520 So everybody understands the concept of a, of a, of a talent agent or of a sports agent.

00:08:13.420 You know, that, that's a person who, who helps, you know, guide someone along, helps them

00:08:19.020 smooth the way for their career, opens doors for them, opportunities for them.

00:08:23.900 So, so you understand the idea of, of, of an agent working for someone on their behalf.

00:08:30.440 But what we're writing about is a concept that has long been discussed in, in the field

00:08:36.900 of psychology and philosophy and sociology.

00:08:40.560 And it's about the, the, the capacity that each of us has inside ourselves to be an effective

00:08:46.600 agent to do that for, for ourselves.

00:08:49.420 And that's what we've been finding has, has been, you know, kind of declining, you know,

00:08:54.340 as people, you know, struggle to adapt as they experience more anxiety and overwhelm, the

00:09:00.740 capacity to, to, to find their agency and, and to, you know, put it into, into, into action

00:09:07.960 is declining in many people.

00:09:11.100 So that's, that's really, you know, you, you, you, you, you've kind of get gotten to the

00:09:15.180 nub of it, Brett, you know, with that question.

00:09:18.060 Well, I mean, so, but are, is agency actually reducing or is it like people sense it?

00:09:22.920 Cause like we live in an age now where you can like, you can customize shoes, however

00:09:27.620 you want.

00:09:28.280 You can make an iPhone case, whatever you want it to say.

00:09:31.540 Is, has agency actually reduced or do, is it just people are overwhelmed?

00:09:35.920 And so they feel like their sense of agency is decreased.

00:09:38.740 Well, that's, that's, you know, that, that, that deciding what, you know, is primary and

00:09:46.600 what secondary is a part of your, your question, which is good.

00:09:49.880 What's true of how we live today is there are more, we're faced with more choices.

00:09:55.040 You know, there's, it's become a cliche to, to, to talk about the fact we live in the so-called

00:10:00.220 information age, but we do, we live in an age where there are, there, there's enormous

00:10:06.220 amount of information coming at us each and every day.

00:10:10.800 And we are required as, as human beings to make choices each and every day in, in, in,

00:10:17.640 in our lives.

00:10:18.960 And because of the sheer volume of information coming our way and, you know, the fact that

00:10:26.160 the economy is changing, jobs are changing, there are more demands, more thinking demands,

00:10:31.920 mental demands being placed on us than were existed 30 years ago.

00:10:37.760 So, you know, psychologists call this the cognitive demands, which, which is just basically

00:10:42.040 the thinking demands.

00:10:43.600 So in a lot of respects, you know, we have to be, our thinking skills matter more today

00:10:49.040 than, than they ever did.

00:10:50.940 And that's a function of living in, in this information age with so many things coming at

00:10:56.400 us, so many messages, we have to get clear on, you know, what our priorities are.

00:11:03.380 And what we talk about is the importance of being able to think clearly for oneself is,

00:11:10.160 you know, that's the, that sort of forms the bedrock of having a sense of self-confidence.

00:11:15.760 And when you have a sense of self-confidence, your anxiety goes down and your level of agency

00:11:22.720 goes up.

00:11:24.120 And so that's what we are trying to help people to find is, you know, find their, their, their

00:11:32.380 confidence and allow their agency or their capacity to be an effective agent for themselves

00:11:38.500 to, to increase that.

00:11:40.820 And it sounds like the way you've written about the book, agency is a skill that can be learned.

00:11:45.960 And I feel like I've noticed something with younger people and even myself is that, you

00:11:51.520 know, I grew up in the eighties and nineties and you were sort of told like, here's the

00:11:56.120 thing you do.

00:11:56.760 Like you go to high school and then you take the SAT and then you go to college and then

00:12:00.700 you do this.

00:12:01.480 Like the really, I didn't have to make too many, like there were some choices, but you

00:12:05.620 know, basically I had this pattern I had to follow and that was it.

00:12:09.160 And so you have a lot of young people who haven't really had to exercise agency because

00:12:13.320 they just follow whatever they're supposed to do.

00:12:15.680 And now they're in this fast changing world where like the old pattern doesn't work.

00:12:19.740 And now they having a hard time figuring out what to do now because they haven't really

00:12:23.080 exercised that agency muscle.

00:12:24.880 No, it's a great point.

00:12:26.100 I think, I think what's true is over the last 30 years, a lot's been written on this, you

00:12:31.740 know, kids are being raised with more and more structure all the time.

00:12:36.200 So highly structured activities, you know, a lot of times very structured academic tracks.

00:12:42.420 And so, you know, the idea behind that is to give kids a leg up, right?

00:12:50.340 To, to increase their capabilities, to make them more competitive in, you know, the, the

00:12:56.940 modern economy.

00:12:58.420 The downside of that, as you've pointed out really well is without structure, which is,

00:13:05.380 you know, when you reach adulthood, there's a lot less structure, right?

00:13:09.060 You've got to invent that for yourself.

00:13:10.780 That's where agency comes in.

00:13:13.220 So we're seeing a lot of younger folks who, without the structure, they feel lost and

00:13:20.400 they don't have a lot of resiliency.

00:13:23.020 So they don't bounce back as effectively as you'd like from setbacks.

00:13:28.480 And so this book is, is, is for them.

00:13:31.340 It's also for folks who are, who are older, who are further along in their careers, who

00:13:37.800 are experiencing change that they need to adapt to, but agency can be learned is the bottom

00:13:43.600 line.

00:13:44.160 It's, there's no book out there that's really set up to teach agency.

00:13:48.780 There's a lot of academic stuff on agency, on why it matters.

00:13:53.760 And, you know, it's, it's basically integral to the human experience.

00:13:58.820 And I think why it's coming up now is because people are really struggling to find it.

00:14:04.280 And, you know, part of that is just, you know, we're really distracted.

00:14:08.540 You know, everybody, you know, is trying to sell us something and it's very easy to kind

00:14:14.160 of lose your way in, in today's world.

00:14:18.080 And, you know, part of this is, is, is, is, is also, you know, what we define as how do

00:14:25.740 you look at success, right?

00:14:27.160 I mean, you know, we were bombarded with images each and every day about what telling us, you

00:14:34.520 know, what success looks like.

00:14:36.660 And, you know, America is a very achievement oriented country in many respects, that's what's

00:14:41.400 made us so strong, but too much of a good thing is not a good thing.

00:14:46.400 And people being exposed to so many images of what success looks like, what it should look

00:14:51.820 like, you know, it, it, it can be distracting.

00:14:55.460 It also can be demotivating.

00:14:57.480 And so what we're, what we advocate in our book is people need to do some deep reflection

00:15:02.860 on what does success mean to you?

00:15:05.160 Because it doesn't mean the same thing to everyone and it shouldn't mean the same thing

00:15:09.220 to everyone.

00:15:09.800 So, you know, agency is partly about finding out where do you stand in, in your life, in

00:15:17.160 terms of what matters to you and how you want to live.

00:15:20.380 Cause there are lots of different ways to live, not just one way.

00:15:24.640 And so it starts with, it starts with that, with, with getting some clarity on what's important

00:15:29.620 to you.

00:15:30.520 Well, let's dig into how we can have more agency in our lives.

00:15:33.520 So you, the book, the subtitle of the book, there's seven principles.

00:15:36.320 What are those seven principles and talk about how they interact with one another?

00:15:40.940 Yeah, the, the, there's seven simple, you know, basic sort of foundational principles

00:15:45.680 to, to, to, that, that help keep people grounded.

00:15:49.320 And the first three, we call behavioral principles, behavioral in the sense of, you know, they're,

00:15:54.840 they're simpler.

00:15:55.820 They're, you know, they're, they're things you can just start to do behaviorally in your

00:16:00.100 life.

00:16:00.320 The first one is called control stimuli, which is, it revolves around the idea of controlling

00:16:04.960 the amount of stimulation you expose yourself to.

00:16:07.300 The second principle is called associate selectively, which is paying attention to the people you

00:16:15.900 have around you in your life.

00:16:18.020 The third is move.

00:16:21.480 Move means using your body, paying attention to your physical health, you know, eating well,

00:16:28.400 getting enough rest and hitting the gym or running or, you know, whatever activities,

00:16:34.640 whatever type of movement appeals to you, you know, get your body in motion.

00:16:38.700 So those are the three behavioral principles.

00:16:41.340 The next four, we call the cognitive principles, which are more about thinking and, and managing

00:16:47.460 your emotions.

00:16:48.280 These are a little more complicated because they involve thinking and emotions.

00:16:52.360 So the first of the cognitive principles is called position yourself as a learner.

00:16:59.600 And the reason why this is one of our core principles is because our capacity to learn

00:17:05.980 really defines us.

00:17:08.080 Then the idea of positioning yourself as a learner, what that implies is it's a, it's a

00:17:13.500 very active thing that we all need to do.

00:17:16.100 We need to actively position ourselves to learn in all situations from, from all people.

00:17:22.460 So learning is, is, is, is integral to a sense of agency.

00:17:27.520 The next principle is called manage your emotions and your beliefs.

00:17:32.400 And this is probably the toughest one of all.

00:17:35.320 It's how do we manage our emotions?

00:17:37.800 How do we manage our beliefs?

00:17:39.500 You know, how do we determine if, if, if, if our emotions and our beliefs are where they,

00:17:46.060 where they need to be, are they in balance?

00:17:48.160 Because I mean, one of the key findings of our, of our book, of our research is that when

00:17:53.780 our minds and our bodies physically are in balance, our decision-making improves.

00:18:00.420 And when our decision-making improves, we then create a life that's more along the lines

00:18:06.720 of what matters to us, what, what, what, you know, what, what we want in our lives.

00:18:10.980 So when your emotions and your beliefs are out of whack, it's hard to, to be grounded.

00:18:17.620 It's hard to, to be a good decision-maker.

00:18:19.820 So this is one of the very important principle, and there's lots of things you can do in terms

00:18:25.800 of better managing emotions and, and, and beliefs.

00:18:29.340 You know, the bottom line here is, you know, we are more, we are emotional creatures, primarily

00:18:34.260 human beings are herd animals also, which is, I think, under-emphasized and being a herd

00:18:40.220 animal.

00:18:40.740 Just think of wild horses out, out in the wide open spaces, right?

00:18:44.180 One gets spooked and they all run, right?

00:18:47.440 And, you know, human beings are like that too.

00:18:50.100 We, we, we often don't, I don't think acknowledge that.

00:18:53.420 And so, you know, when you're exposed to people who, you know, have high emotions, you know,

00:19:00.400 you start to take on some of those emotions yourself.

00:19:02.600 So being careful about that, you know, being aware of that is, is, is very important.

00:19:08.180 The next principle is check your intuition.

00:19:11.780 Checking your intuition means doing a gut check.

00:19:14.840 What do I feel about this situation?

00:19:16.880 You know, what, what's my gut telling me and making sure you use that information wisely,

00:19:21.980 which is to say not impulsively, but as a source of additional data in making decision.

00:19:27.740 And then the final and sort of pinnacle practice is we call deliberate, then act, which the bottom

00:19:35.400 line with this final principle is that you want to separate your thinking and deliberation

00:19:42.480 from your taking action, especially on really important decisions.

00:19:47.440 So when you need to make an important call, give thought to how are, how am I actually going

00:19:53.000 to make this decision and, and separate that from taking action and then figure out, okay,

00:19:58.280 so once I've made the decision, how do I put that into, into action?

00:20:02.700 Perfect.

00:20:02.880 Let's dig deep into some of these principles.

00:20:04.820 One of the chapters that really stood out to me was the idea of controlling stimuli.

00:20:08.780 So what are the types of stimuli that we need to manage in order to help increase our

00:20:13.300 agency?

00:20:14.700 Well, this is, this is really important.

00:20:16.880 And the reason this is the first principle is because, you know, you need to have a clear

00:20:22.060 head in order to really do anything of value in your life, right?

00:20:25.800 I mean, if your head is clogged with all kinds of, of, of information and distraction, it's

00:20:32.120 really hard to, to kind of be effective in be present and make good decisions.

00:20:38.020 The other reason why this is our first principle is that, you know, when you achieve this,

00:20:42.500 when you're able to keep more of a clear head, it allows you to use the other principles.

00:20:47.560 So, you know, there's, there's a lot of things that, that you can do here, many different

00:20:53.920 techniques, you know, some common ones that more and more people are starting to do that,

00:20:59.480 that I'm seeing is, you know, putting your phone away, putting it in a box or in a drawer

00:21:04.180 for periods of time.

00:21:05.820 So that's out of sight.

00:21:07.200 You know, what we found is out of sight, out of mind is really good when it comes to electronic

00:21:13.160 devices.

00:21:14.160 And there's a really simple reason for that.

00:21:17.680 You know, from our interviews with, with all, with all kinds of people in different walks

00:21:22.940 of life, you know, we arrived at a place that was a little scary, which is that, you know,

00:21:28.940 more and more we are like trained monkeys tethered to devices that prompt us at all hours of the

00:21:38.540 day, you know, where we put our attention is literally everything.

00:21:44.940 It's the most important decision you make for yourself and in your life.

00:21:49.340 So if you are literally being led around by devices and your attention is simply going

00:21:57.700 where other people are prompting it to go, you're not going to be in control of your life.

00:22:03.420 You're not going to feel great ultimately, and your level of agency is going to decline.

00:22:08.800 So simple, simple acts of just, you know, putting that phone away out of sight for periods

00:22:14.440 of time is enormously helpful.

00:22:16.660 One other piece of advice in terms of devices, you know, which is that a lot of times when

00:22:22.840 you want to reach out for your device, do something different, move your body instead, get up, take

00:22:29.740 a walk, stretch.

00:22:32.320 You know, a lot of times we reach for a device when we need a moment to recharge and reaching

00:22:42.200 for your device does not really recharge us.

00:22:45.360 So another thing to focus on in terms of controlling stimuli is do less multitasking, do more what

00:22:54.180 we call monotasking, one thing at a time.

00:22:57.160 I'll give you an example.

00:22:58.060 I was backing out of my garage yesterday and, you know, my phone was going off.

00:23:02.680 I live in Boston.

00:23:03.620 We, you know, space is tight here.

00:23:05.640 Garage is small.

00:23:07.360 Got snow piled up from the last snowstorm.

00:23:10.240 And I was having to angle my car to avoid the mound of snow.

00:23:14.620 And in any case, you know, my phone was beeping and getting a text message.

00:23:18.480 I was distracted.

00:23:20.140 So, you know, not paying close attention, I nicked the mirror onto the side of the garage.

00:23:26.640 And, you know, it's an example, you know, a concrete, simple example.

00:23:30.260 What can happen when we're doing too many things at one time and our attention is divided?

00:23:35.500 So, you know, there's a lot of research that suggests when we are multitasking, we actually

00:23:43.680 think we're doing a lot better than, in fact, we really are.

00:23:48.200 And so we want to, you know, one of the other, you know, as I said, simple practice here in

00:23:52.380 controlling stimuli is do less of that.

00:23:53.840 Do less multitasking.

00:23:55.580 There's tons of other things in the book, other things you can do to control the stimuli

00:23:59.980 in your life.

00:24:00.600 But the bottom line here is in terms of technology, because technology has been a game changer and

00:24:06.240 it has a lot to do with why controlling stimuli has become such an important thing for all

00:24:12.740 of us to do.

00:24:13.820 You want to make sure that you're using technology rather than letting technology use you.

00:24:20.800 And, you know, this is something I bet you can relate to, Brett, because it seems to me

00:24:25.100 that, and this is more just an inference I'm drawing, it seems to me that you're someone

00:24:30.300 who uses technology as opposed to letting it use you.

00:24:34.900 So, you know, you find ways to productively employ it to enhance your life and you probably

00:24:40.960 try to limit the downside of it, you know, invading your life.

00:24:45.260 That is true.

00:24:46.020 Yeah.

00:24:46.280 I've used apps to like control, like, well, actually I don't have Instagram on my phone.

00:24:50.380 I don't, I don't, I don't look at Twitter really anymore.

00:24:53.960 Facebook don't use that anymore because I just didn't, wasn't bringing me any value.

00:24:58.020 That's huge.

00:24:58.540 Now those are really great examples of controlling stimuli and it become, it's become much, much

00:25:06.440 more important that we all do this.

00:25:09.360 And, you know, for each person, there are different things to do, different ways to go

00:25:13.420 about it.

00:25:14.080 It's not a one size fits all thing, but to your credit, I mean, you, you know, you actually

00:25:19.020 made some very clear choices and I'm sure you probably reflected on those choices before

00:25:25.640 you, you, you acted on them and, and made them for a good reason.

00:25:29.260 You know, I, I got off of Facebook four years ago and you know, the, the strange thing is

00:25:35.040 I was not a heavy user of Facebook, but the strange thing is just thinking about doing

00:25:40.700 it, you know, getting off.

00:25:42.320 I felt anxious.

00:25:43.940 I was like, I was like, you know, like, wow, well, what, what am I, what am I, what, what

00:25:48.220 will I be giving up?

00:25:49.160 What will I be missing by making that decision?

00:25:52.020 And, you know, it was strange because, you know, again, not being a heavy user, it wasn't

00:25:56.900 like it was that, it wasn't that, it was that important to me.

00:25:59.680 But once I made the decision and did it, I never looked back and I, and I frankly didn't

00:26:03.680 miss it, but you know, the thing is, is that, you know, there's an opportunity cost, which

00:26:09.840 is an economic principle for every decision we make.

00:26:12.980 And the opportunity cost is if, you know, when you say yes to something, you're in effect

00:26:17.460 saying no to something else.

00:26:19.200 So when you're on social media, just for example, since we're talking about it, when you say

00:26:23.760 yes to social media and you're, if you spend an hour, two hours on it every day, that's two

00:26:28.800 hours that you don't have for something else.

00:26:31.440 So, you know, there's, and there's a huge cost to that.

00:26:34.860 So in any case, it's, you know, that's, that's an important topic in its own right on how to

00:26:39.360 control stimuli and, you know, all the different ways to do it and all the different, you know,

00:26:43.940 the ways that you do it, Brett, the ways that, you know, other people do it.

00:26:47.380 It's, it's, and it is a really, really critical thing for us today.

00:26:51.820 We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:26:55.180 And now back to the show.

00:26:57.200 Well, let's talk about the next principle, which is associate selectively.

00:27:00.840 How do the people we choose to associate with influence our sense of agency?

00:27:05.560 They influence us hugely.

00:27:07.480 And this is a, one of the, the more critical principles as well.

00:27:12.560 The main reason is we pick up the emotional states of other people.

00:27:18.300 When other people around us are confident, happy, motivated, open, we, we are too.

00:27:28.060 So if you're surrounded by people who are not those things, if you're surrounded by people who

00:27:35.560 are depressed, angry, you know, negative most of the time, you're going to become that way

00:27:42.100 yourself.

00:27:42.780 That's just, it's, it's how we work.

00:27:44.360 It's, it's called mirror neurons.

00:27:46.000 And we all have these, these mirror neurons that, that function and we, we don't have full

00:27:51.040 control over those.

00:27:51.900 We just don't, the other important thing about associating selectively and you know, what

00:27:57.280 that means is, I mean, to associate selectively, what it means is actively choosing the people

00:28:01.820 that you have in your life and especially the people that are closest to you.

00:28:06.560 You know, you've got some great information on your website about the different types of

00:28:11.040 friendships, especially the types of friendships men have.

00:28:13.820 And, you know, how many people generally we have in our closest circle, the common number

00:28:21.920 is five people, six people are sort of in our, our inner circle.

00:28:26.160 Those people closest to us have an enormous effect on our level of agency.

00:28:32.400 The other thing that's critical here is isolation for human beings is like kryptonite.

00:28:38.920 It's, you know, it's, it's, it really, really diminishes our agency.

00:28:44.600 And that's why, you know, agency really is always expressed, you know, with and through

00:28:51.260 the relationships we have with other people.

00:28:53.800 So it's both about making sure you're not isolated, making sure that the inner circle of

00:29:00.680 folks really are supportive, you know, confident, motivated people, people you can learn from

00:29:06.540 people you can enjoy.

00:29:07.760 So you want to move toward people like that.

00:29:11.420 And if you can't fix a relationship, that's gotten really negative, you know, we're not

00:29:16.100 suggesting you abandon people when they become difficult at all.

00:29:19.700 You know, that's not, that, that's not appropriate, but if you can't get relationships onto a better

00:29:25.440 path, then limit the amount of time you spend with those people.

00:29:29.140 Or if you absolutely have to move on because those people are really going to cost you a lot.

00:29:34.420 So, so anyway, that's, that, that's what associate selectively means.

00:29:38.580 There's a lot of different ways to, you know, as you read, if you read the chapter, you know,

00:29:42.760 there are a lot of different ways to practice associating selectively in your life.

00:29:46.820 But it's, it's probably the most important decision that you're going to make is, is who

00:29:51.920 you surround yourself with.

00:29:53.140 And it can be the hardest one too, because like you said, there might be some really good

00:29:56.560 friends or even family members who are bringing you down.

00:29:59.580 And in order for you to move on in your life, you might have to separate yourself a bit from

00:30:03.620 them or a lot.

00:30:04.740 And that can be really hard.

00:30:06.260 That's right.

00:30:06.820 It can be very painful, but it starts with an awareness of, you know, sort of a taking

00:30:11.680 stock of who's in my life, you know, who, who in my life really supports me?

00:30:16.060 Who in my life do I learn from who in my life kind of gets me motivated and charged up, you

00:30:21.940 know, each and every day, do I have anyone, you know, if I don't have anyone, that's a

00:30:27.900 real problem.

00:30:29.220 And so, you know, there's ways to, you know, set boundaries, set limits on, on some of the

00:30:34.060 people who are really negative, you know, for certain family members, you know, it's

00:30:37.860 impossible.

00:30:38.340 You don't, you don't cut family members out of your life entirely, but there are ways to

00:30:42.980 diminish the impact they have on you.

00:30:45.780 So you're not, you know, you don't, you don't fall into the same traps over and over.

00:30:50.520 And again, also having really, you know, good quality people in your life who support you

00:30:54.760 and, and push you forward in your life.

00:30:58.320 Those people can make up for, you know, other people who have a more negative influence.

00:31:02.720 But yeah, this is, this is a, this is an important one.

00:31:05.340 Again, people you surround yourself with, I want to make really good choices there.

00:31:09.740 Well, in a book about making choices for yourself, I was surprised to find a chapter on just

00:31:14.460 movement, exercise, moving your body, taking care of yourself.

00:31:18.140 What role does that play in agency?

00:31:20.520 Yeah, this is, this is huge actually too.

00:31:22.660 I mean, movement increases brain activity.

00:31:25.020 It's as simple as that.

00:31:26.520 You know, we need our brains, our brains or we need their brains each and every day.

00:31:31.800 Obviously it sounds silly to say it, but you know, our brains are, are the thing that,

00:31:36.500 that make us unique and anything that helps us, you know, in terms of allowing our brain

00:31:44.760 to function better is, is positive.

00:31:47.200 So movement increases brain activity.

00:31:50.400 Anything from a brisk walk, you know, on up will increase the blood flow to the brain.

00:31:56.660 This recalibrates our mood.

00:31:58.500 It affects all our neurotransmitters.

00:32:01.080 It basically, it's the thing that, that allows our brain to function at its best.

00:32:06.500 So we're designed to be, we're designed to move.

00:32:09.840 I mean, we are designed to be in motion as, as people.

00:32:14.520 And what's happened is, you know, over the last, this is, you know, true for the last

00:32:19.200 30 years in particular, we've become much more sedentary.

00:32:23.180 We sit around way too much in general.

00:32:26.360 Now, you know, there are plenty of people who don't, who practice movement, but there are

00:32:30.160 a lot of people on a cultural level, on a, you know, population wide level.

00:32:34.560 Many, many more people are spending more time sitting.

00:32:39.220 A lot of this has to do with screens.

00:32:41.040 A lot of it has to do with, you know, devices because most often, you know, we're sitting

00:32:46.860 down when we're on devices.

00:32:48.980 Okay.

00:32:49.140 You know, you've seen, obviously you've seen people walking while looking at a device

00:32:52.820 and, and you've probably seen that that doesn't always work out so well.

00:32:56.460 And, um, so, you know, uh, there's a lot of information out there about the importance

00:33:04.420 of movement.

00:33:04.900 But when we say movement, we mean something that goes beyond just physical movement.

00:33:09.660 And what we mean is paying attention to your physical body and what it needs to be, you

00:33:17.320 know, in tip top shape.

00:33:19.020 So, you know, it's like taking your car in for service, right?

00:33:22.500 I mean, there are, there are a lot of men, you know, I know who, who, who keep their

00:33:26.660 car in better working order than they do their own physical bodies.

00:33:31.080 Right.

00:33:31.480 I mean, so it's about what are you eating?

00:33:34.000 It's about how much exercise you get.

00:33:36.320 It's about how are you sleeping?

00:33:38.180 What are your sleeping habits?

00:33:39.840 You know, there's a lot of research about how chronically sleep deprived most Americans

00:33:44.500 are.

00:33:44.940 That is really a problem because when we're sleep deprived, we actually lose IQ points.

00:33:51.680 We don't feel as good.

00:33:54.160 It sets us up for chronic illness later in life.

00:33:58.620 So there are a lot of things, simple things to pay attention to here in the, in the move

00:34:04.320 chapter, which is essentially, you know, all related to your physical body.

00:34:09.360 Because the bottom line here is your, our physical bodies are connected to our brains.

00:34:14.400 So, you know, again, principle, overall overarching principle, the book, you know, when, when we

00:34:21.040 are in better balance physically and mentally, we show up in life differently and, you know,

00:34:27.880 we have higher levels of agency and we make better decisions for ourselves.

00:34:32.400 And I think the other thing it does too, by exercising regularly or choosing to take care

00:34:36.760 of yourself is that it increases your sense of agency because you're exercising your agency

00:34:40.720 when you decide to do those things.

00:34:42.580 That's exactly right.

00:34:43.740 No, that, that's, I really, that's a beautiful thing you just said, I, you know, because when

00:34:50.220 we are sitting, you know, we essentially are in some ways communicating that we're stuck

00:34:57.060 and more and more people, you know, people I coach in my work, we talk about this, you

00:35:02.500 know, when I ask them to review, well, tell me about a typical day in your life, what is

00:35:06.380 it like?

00:35:07.380 And, you know, I pay attention to how much time are they actually, you know, moving around.

00:35:13.660 And for a lot of people who feel very stuck in their lives, simply moving more has a, has,

00:35:22.060 has enormous impact.

00:35:23.860 You know, again, movement boosts creativity and fluid thinking.

00:35:28.500 It jumpstarts motivation.

00:35:30.500 And, you know, if you're sedentary for long periods of time, it basically can produce what

00:35:36.340 the psychologist Martin Seligman referred to as learned helplessness, which is that, you

00:35:41.460 know, you just don't, you know, you feel trapped, you, you feel stuck.

00:35:46.600 And so, you know, it's very important to, to move your body.

00:35:50.580 I mean, any of us can relate to that, right?

00:35:52.000 If you, you know, you sit around for a day or two and don't do much of anything, you

00:35:56.520 start, you don't start to, you start not feeling so great, right?

00:35:59.540 Your thinking is less clear, you know, your emotions can get out of whack.

00:36:04.160 The other point I'll make, you know, on, on the chapter on move is the importance of being

00:36:08.720 outdoors, getting time in nature, because part of, you know, what's happened over the last

00:36:14.100 30 years is not just that we are sitting too much, but we're also indoors too much.

00:36:19.740 So getting outside is so beneficial to our sense of agency.

00:36:25.620 It improves our mood, it improves our creativity.

00:36:29.880 So, you know, get outdoors and even if literally just if it's for 10 minutes, it can be a game

00:36:35.840 changer.

00:36:37.300 So those are the behavioral principles.

00:36:38.860 Let's talk about a few of the cognitive principles.

00:36:41.100 And the first one you talked about is positioning yourself as a learner.

00:36:44.820 What does that look like and why is that important to increasing agency?

00:36:48.240 Yeah, you know, this is something that has become more important now than, than ever before.

00:36:56.340 And, and it position yourself as a learner.

00:36:59.080 We talked about this, you know, I talked about this a little earlier.

00:37:01.960 The bottom line with this principle is when we are well-informed, we make better decisions.

00:37:07.240 So our book teaches you how to get the best information.

00:37:12.920 We also help you to identify your best learning style.

00:37:17.140 Everyone learns differently.

00:37:18.860 There's, there, there are a few different learning styles.

00:37:21.440 It's really useful for all of us to know how we learn best.

00:37:25.180 You know, again, back to the point I made earlier about living in the information age,

00:37:29.240 learning is really required of us now.

00:37:32.480 So the, anything we do that can expand our capacity to learn increases our personal power.

00:37:39.880 It increases our level of agency.

00:37:43.240 So it's really, really important to think about how to best position yourself to learn.

00:37:50.700 And we can learn throughout every, each of our, each day we can learn.

00:37:56.060 There's opportunities learning from the people around us.

00:37:58.800 There's always opportunities to pick up new information just by being curious and opening

00:38:05.480 ourselves up to new learning.

00:38:07.520 And again, this increases agency because our capacity to take things in and learn allows

00:38:15.080 us to exert power in our lives.

00:38:18.740 So, you know, one thing I wanted to mention, your interview with, with Mike Rowe was interesting

00:38:23.860 to me because Mike makes a good case for, you know, they're different, they're different

00:38:30.180 ways that, that people learn and, and, and express agency in their lives.

00:38:35.060 Not everybody, you know, not everyone's talent is expressed by sitting at a desk and, and college

00:38:42.620 is not necessarily, traditional college is not necessarily for everyone either.

00:38:46.940 And so a lot of people ask me, well, you know, in this information age, you know, everyone's

00:38:53.280 required now to go to college.

00:38:55.360 And to some extent, it's easy to see how, how people come to that determination because

00:39:01.320 one of the better things about attending college is ideally it teaches you how to think

00:39:07.580 better.

00:39:08.560 Okay.

00:39:09.080 It's not so much about all the information you learn there, but it's, it's, it's teaching

00:39:13.980 you how to think and how to learn.

00:39:16.360 So there are other ways, however, to learn how to think and to learn how to learn.

00:39:23.740 So what we talk about in our book is learn how you learn best, you know, get, get, increase

00:39:30.660 your level of awareness of that and make sure you incorporate learning into, you know, your,

00:39:36.520 your, your everyday experience and make good choices around how you educate yourself and,

00:39:42.640 and realize it's not, it's not necessarily a one size fits all approach.

00:39:46.360 Yeah.

00:39:46.880 I imagine just learning how to learn is going to be like the skill that will allow you to

00:39:51.000 have more agency in today's world because jobs are always changing.

00:39:56.140 Businesses are always changing.

00:39:57.300 Like what worked 10 years ago doesn't work today.

00:40:00.260 And that's probably why a lot of people in their careers feel overwhelmed.

00:40:03.120 They're like, well, man, like that stuff I learned in college or when I first started

00:40:06.640 my career, like that doesn't work anymore.

00:40:08.700 They don't know what to do because they never really learned how to learn.

00:40:11.640 But so if you're constantly positioning yourself as a learner, you're able to adapt as

00:40:16.220 things change in exercise agency.

00:40:18.200 That's exactly right.

00:40:19.900 And if you, if you, if you, if you pay attention to how you learn and you, you know, develop

00:40:27.780 a habit of learning in your everyday life, that helps you to adapt to whatever comes down

00:40:36.220 the pike later. 0.95

00:40:37.380 And I think you said it well, Brett, there's a statistic that speaks to this as well, that

00:40:42.040 kids, kids born today, you know, more than 50% of the jobs that are out there will no

00:40:48.960 longer exist by the time they're adults.

00:40:51.400 So for someone born today, it's really in some ways impossible to prepare them for a specific

00:40:58.080 thing.

00:40:58.980 So we're better off helping kids to develop greater agency, which is to say, helping them

00:41:07.900 to, to be able to better adapt to whatever comes along.

00:41:12.600 And the capacity to learn is really, you know, probably the most important thing there in

00:41:18.120 terms of helping you to be more adaptable in your, in your life.

00:41:22.040 So you mentioned at the beginning earlier in the show that managing your emotions is one

00:41:26.240 of the cognitive skills, that's really hard, but it probably has one of the, just like

00:41:30.560 associating selectivity has a big payoff.

00:41:32.680 So why is being aware of our emotions and knowing how to manage those an important part

00:41:37.220 of increasing agency?

00:41:39.040 Well, we're emotional creatures.

00:41:40.820 You know, I think that sometimes we, you know, we, we, we under emphasize that or forget

00:41:45.260 that, but we're living in a world that is more and more complex every day, you know, more

00:41:51.920 and more information, you know, that we have to, to deal with.

00:41:56.840 And, you know, we, again, we, we're emotional creatures, you know, a lot of people feel things

00:42:03.320 first and, and our feeling affects our thinking, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're

00:42:07.720 in some respects hard to separate.

00:42:10.360 So the reason why managing your emotions and beliefs is one of the core principles of agency

00:42:15.860 is that emotions are the strongest things happening in our heads.

00:42:21.580 Our emotions can, can derail us.

00:42:24.160 They can take us down blind alleys if we're not self-aware.

00:42:28.820 So this capacity to, to kind of reflect on your feelings, to understand better why you feel

00:42:35.860 the way you do really helps to ensure that, you know, you have your emotions rather than

00:42:44.920 your emotions have you, because when our emotions are, are in charge, it often leads to less

00:42:53.260 positive outcomes.

00:42:54.820 So in other words, said, said differently, when we apply some thinking to our emotions, we

00:43:00.760 usually end up in a better place.

00:43:03.240 We make better decisions for ourselves.

00:43:05.440 So that's, that's the, the bottom line with emotions and beliefs.

00:43:08.660 And the other point I'll make in terms, in terms of beliefs is, you know, beliefs are

00:43:14.220 better off when we actually question them and update them over time.

00:43:19.420 You know, as we learn more, as we grow, we sometimes need to update our beliefs.

00:43:25.360 You know, we talk, we talk about the difference in the, in the book about the difference in values

00:43:29.560 and beliefs.

00:43:31.420 Values tend to be bedrock things.

00:43:33.040 The things we value, the things we think of as, you know, most important, sort of unchanging

00:43:38.280 values.

00:43:39.700 Beliefs are, are sort of, you know, connect, they're connected to emotion and they're connected

00:43:44.680 to what we know.

00:43:46.080 And if we're actually learning in our lives, we will modify some of the things we believe

00:43:51.660 as, as we learn more.

00:43:53.220 And, and that helps us navigate in the world better because when we, we navigate in the world

00:43:58.340 with outdated beliefs, you know, we don't make good decisions for ourselves.

00:44:02.220 So it's important to, you know, to kind of realize the, how, how beliefs and emotions

00:44:08.660 affect our, our thinking.

00:44:11.400 And when you understand that relationship better, again, you make better choices for yourself.

00:44:16.200 Well, agency, you know, it comes down to making choices and taking action on those choices.

00:44:20.680 The problem is, you know, as we said earlier, a lot of young people, they haven't, they don't

00:44:26.040 have like a lot of, they haven't had a lot of practice making meat, like those really important

00:44:29.680 choices.

00:44:30.080 So how can we get better at making choices?

00:44:33.260 Is there like a system you can follow?

00:44:35.160 Is it, or is there not a system?

00:44:37.080 What does that look like?

00:44:38.680 You know, interestingly enough, most of us are not trained or don't get educated specifically

00:44:47.500 on how to make decisions.

00:44:50.020 You know, it's, it's very interesting to me that we don't get more, you know, along the

00:44:56.160 way in school, you know, in high school and, you know, whether we're, and then whether we

00:45:02.160 go to college or they go to the trade school.

00:45:04.240 In some ways, you know, learning more specifically about how to make better decisions is, it's so

00:45:09.640 important to the, to determining what kind of life you have.

00:45:13.260 Because at the end of the day, you know, in many respects, we, we are the sum total of

00:45:19.480 all the decisions we've made in our lives.

00:45:22.100 So getting better at making decisions is pretty important.

00:45:26.600 So what we recommend in the book is using a process, having, having a framework to make

00:45:34.340 important decisions.

00:45:35.340 And again, these are the decisions that are, that are, that are, you know, not for each

00:45:39.260 and every decision, like whether you're going to the supermarket to buy, you know, a can of

00:45:44.440 peas, it's for the important decisions you're going to make, use a framework.

00:45:49.300 We provide one in the book, actually, a fairly simple framework.

00:45:53.640 We interviewed a judge, a detective, doctors, some business people to understand how these

00:46:01.920 expert decision makers arrive at their judgments.

00:46:05.720 So, you know, using them as examples.

00:46:08.280 And the interesting thing about it is, you know, everybody can become a better decision

00:46:13.320 maker if, if they focus on it.

00:46:16.280 So I think the issue is that, you know, again, it doesn't receive enough focus or attention.

00:46:22.400 So, you know, when you actually do focus on how you make a decision, you know, you actually

00:46:29.680 can make, the quality of your decisions will go, will go up.

00:46:33.460 So we talk a lot about in this chapter about being aware of the common thinking traps or

00:46:39.680 biases you fall into.

00:46:42.000 We all have, it turns out we all have them.

00:46:44.780 And, you know, there's some really terrific research out there that's been conducted over

00:46:48.380 the last 20 years or so on decision making, on the human capacity for decision making.

00:46:54.960 And, you know, the results are pretty startling, which, you know, the bottom line is, you know,

00:47:00.140 we, we actually are not as good at decision making as we think we are.

00:47:06.800 And, you know, I see it in my work, you know, with, with people who often work in business,

00:47:12.160 lots of bad decisions get made each and every day.

00:47:14.300 So improving your hit rate there will improve the quality of your life.

00:47:19.120 Yeah.

00:47:19.160 The big takeaway for me from that chapter was understanding that our brain likes to be lazy

00:47:24.380 when making decisions so that we rely on these biases or heuristics that in some situations

00:47:29.720 they work, right?

00:47:30.680 They're fine.

00:47:31.260 They're there for a reason.

00:47:32.040 But when you're making like long-term, really important decisions, like you actually don't

00:47:36.860 want to be efficient with your thinking.

00:47:38.700 You want to slow things down and actually, so you can be more effective, right?

00:47:43.680 So it's going to be, either things are going to be a little more clunky, it's going to be

00:47:46.720 more intentional, it's going to feel harder, but that, and that lets you know you're, you're

00:47:52.220 actually using that prefrontal cortex of yours that makes you a human.

00:47:56.040 So instead of just relying on your emotions and sort of those biases that we have.

00:48:00.040 That's right, that's right.

00:48:01.400 I mean, simply slowing down the thinking process, you know, can have enormous benefit because

00:48:08.060 we all, to your point, we all prefer as human beings to engage in what we call fast thinking.

00:48:16.980 This, this all comes from research, you know, really terrific research done by Daniel Kahneman

00:48:22.580 and Amos Tversky, two psychologists who did a really deep dive on human decision-making.

00:48:29.280 And, you know, they basically have a two, a two-stage model that they built upon, which

00:48:35.460 is the idea that system one thinking is fast thinking, which is more intuitive, more automatic.

00:48:41.840 System two thinking is more deliberate.

00:48:44.680 It's more, you know, rational and analytical.

00:48:48.220 To engage effectively in system two thinking, you need to slow things down.

00:48:53.420 And certain decisions really require system two thinking.

00:48:57.960 You know, there's some decisions we make that it's okay to be automatic.

00:49:03.180 It's okay to be, you know, you don't have to give them a tremendous amount of thought.

00:49:07.680 You know, like again, back to the supermarket, you're picking up a can of peas.

00:49:10.980 It's not a big deal either way, you know, which can of peas you end up with.

00:49:14.920 But, you know, when you're making an important career decision or, you know, you're thinking

00:49:19.300 about, you know, getting married or you're making a really important life decision, that's

00:49:25.280 really important to give some thought to, you know, how you're making that decision.

00:49:29.400 And that requires employing what's called system two thinking, just slowing things down,

00:49:34.480 using all your human capability to apply to that decision.

00:49:40.500 And so, you know, again, the bottom line here is that, you know, we as human beings have

00:49:45.420 a lot of capability within us that's undeveloped.

00:49:50.340 And agency is the capacity to pull all of that together, all of our ability, all of our

00:49:58.800 capacity as human beings, pull it all together and make use of it to make good choices and

00:50:06.080 to be effective agents in our lives.

00:50:08.860 So that we create a life on our terms, not on somebody else's terms, not on, you know,

00:50:15.120 what someone on Instagram or Facebook or, you know, what somebody else has defined as being

00:50:20.960 the good life, but really on our terms.

00:50:24.080 And that's the key to a well-lived life.

00:50:28.720 And so, you know, and that's what agency is.

00:50:31.220 You know, agency is making these decisions for yourself.

00:50:33.780 It's thinking for yourself.

00:50:35.220 It's creating a life, again, on your terms.

00:50:39.740 And so Deliberate and Then Act, the final chapter of the book, is really where it all

00:50:44.520 comes together.

00:50:46.180 And it's designed to help you to become a much better decision maker in your life.

00:50:52.900 Well, I think a lot of people, there might be not a lot of people, I think some people,

00:50:55.940 they can make the choice, right?

00:50:57.260 Do the deliberation part, but they have trouble taking action on that decision.

00:51:02.300 What do you think is going on there?

00:51:03.260 Like, what's stopping them from taking action and how do you get over that hump?

00:51:07.600 Well, it's a really good question because I think, you know, some people, and we've all

00:51:12.580 probably come across these people, you know, they're smart, they seem really able, and,

00:51:16.900 you know, they're people who make good decisions, but then don't act on them.

00:51:22.180 And, you know, we talk about the four large impediments to taking action in your life.

00:51:28.680 And, you know, one of them, not surprisingly, is procrastination.

00:51:35.160 You know, procrastination gets in the way.

00:51:38.360 Impulsivity is another one.

00:51:40.040 People jump too quickly to making decisions.

00:51:43.740 And so that prevents them from taking the best actions.

00:51:47.940 Obsession and perfectionism are the two other impediments.

00:51:53.000 When we obsess over something, you know, we are trying to make sure we're making the perfect

00:52:00.040 decision, you know, and we can't, you know, pull the trigger and just move forward.

00:52:06.380 So, you know, these are probably four most common reasons, common things that get in the way

00:52:14.140 of people taking action.

00:52:15.760 And, you know, they all have, they all produce different outcomes and people have different

00:52:21.620 styles, right?

00:52:22.260 People all have different styles.

00:52:23.940 There's some people who are more obsessive, you know, in their thinking.

00:52:26.900 They're constantly thinking about, well, but on the other hand, or, you know, well, what

00:52:32.300 if this, or what if that?

00:52:35.160 Then you got people who, you know, are so impulsive that they literally make a decision and they can

00:52:42.360 move into action too quickly and then regret it.

00:52:46.560 So, and then you have your procrastinators who basically just try to, you know, avoid or defer,

00:52:52.860 you know, even thinking about something till the last minute.

00:52:56.240 So there's, you know, these are just some of the things that get in our way of putting good

00:53:02.120 decisions, you know, into play.

00:53:05.060 And the book talks about these things and how to get around them.

00:53:09.100 You know, the bottom line is, you know, there's a lot of low-hanging fruit in terms, for most

00:53:14.820 people, in terms of how they can be better, both at making decisions and then taking action

00:53:21.400 on those decisions.

00:53:23.040 And these things, you know, getting better at this stuff, you know, it simply requires

00:53:27.340 a bit of focus on it.

00:53:28.520 And, you know, with some focused attention to it, you know, anyone can become a much better

00:53:33.060 decision maker.

00:53:33.820 And that leads to greater confidence and greater happiness.

00:53:39.900 And, you know, it's really flexing your agency muscle, you know, because confidence, you know,

00:53:46.000 is directly related to agency.

00:53:49.380 And it is the kind of antidote to the anxiety and overwhelm that everyone's experiencing these

00:53:56.280 days.

00:53:56.740 And, you know, that's really kind of what we designed the book for, is for people to

00:54:03.040 not be stuck, for people to, you know, again, kind of more actively grab the bull by the

00:54:10.880 horns and think about their lives, think about what matters to them, and get busy creating

00:54:17.480 that life for themselves.

00:54:19.400 So, anyway, it's a lot to think about, but really, bottom line here is, you know, we focus

00:54:26.100 more on principles with this book, as opposed to, you know, specific to-do items.

00:54:31.620 So, basically, you know, I think when, you know, our assumption there is, you know, when

00:54:36.220 people have, like, you know, when they understand why they're doing something, which is, you know,

00:54:41.960 the principles, when they understand why this matters, they then can put that into use in

00:54:47.620 their lives, and it will influence, you know, how they go about everything, and as opposed

00:54:54.600 to us telling them, you know, do this, don't do that, and, you know, which oftentimes can

00:55:00.500 just add to people's overwhelm.

00:55:02.800 So, you know, again, the book was written to help people simply become much better at

00:55:09.140 making life choices and, you know, creating a life on their terms and moving away.

00:55:16.800 A lot of times that means moving away from the herd, not doing what everybody else is

00:55:20.980 doing, and, you know, and finding out, you know, what matters to you, you know, what floats

00:55:27.540 your boat?

00:55:28.460 Because, you know, among the people we interviewed for this book, we found all kinds of people

00:55:32.880 doing really interesting things, things you never would think of.

00:55:36.880 And, you know, that came from them, you know, developing a greater sense of agency in their

00:55:43.460 lives.

00:55:43.760 So we thought, you know, we share this with other people, this is going to really help.

00:55:48.320 This is going to help people a lot.

00:55:50.000 So ultimately, that's our goal, is to help people to defeat overwhelm and anxiety, to feel

00:55:57.960 less stuck, and to create a life that is really uniquely theirs.

00:56:04.920 Well, Paul, where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:56:07.520 Yeah, well, the book is available.

00:56:09.520 We launched last week.

00:56:10.920 It's called The Power of Agency, The Seven Principles to Conquer Obstacles, Make Effective

00:56:16.400 Decisions, and Create a Life on Your Own Terms.

00:56:18.960 We also have a website, which is powerofagency.com.

00:56:22.820 We have developed a short instrument, a test that you can take to measure your level of

00:56:28.700 ability on these seven principles.

00:56:31.920 So that, if you buy the book, you can take the test for free in the book.

00:56:35.900 If you go to our website, you can actually take the first of the subtests, which measures

00:56:40.880 your ability to control stimuli in your life.

00:56:43.760 And you'll get a brief report that describes your results.

00:56:49.340 So we also have, we were guests on the podcast, Better at Everything, and they released that

00:56:57.340 today, actually.

00:56:58.500 The Move Principle was released today by the Better at Everything folks.

00:57:02.380 That's part of Macmillan, our publisher.

00:57:04.740 So there's lots of ways to learn about the book.

00:57:07.220 It's available at every store on Amazon.

00:57:10.120 And again, I think this is, in some ways, has particular meaning to men, because I didn't

00:57:17.020 mention this at the beginning, but men are struggling right now.

00:57:21.800 There's a lot of data on the fact that men are falling behind women in a lot of key measures,

00:57:28.900 both education and at work.

00:57:33.220 And there's some clear reasons for that.

00:57:34.920 And we wrote this book as a way to help all people, but particularly to help men, to get

00:57:43.600 a leg up, and to better adapt to the world we live in today.

00:57:49.820 It's why our publisher has described the book as, really, it's the seven habits for highly

00:57:56.440 effective people a generation later, 30 years after that book was published.

00:58:01.960 Our book is designed to help people navigate in a 24-7, plugged-in world, which didn't exist

00:58:10.540 30 years ago.

00:58:11.360 And it's a different world.

00:58:14.180 And some people are doing better than others.

00:58:17.700 And we wanted to write a book that talks about what those people are doing differently, and

00:58:23.240 why it is that they seem to be adapting better, and what we can all learn from them.

00:58:29.000 So this is our effort to do that and put it out there.

00:58:33.420 So yeah, you can buy the book anywhere books are sold.

00:58:35.740 And I hope people continue listening to your podcast, Brett, because you've got invaluable

00:58:41.560 information here for people to listen to.

00:58:44.120 They're incredibly fun and enlightening, all the topics you cover.

00:58:49.720 So that's another way to position yourself as a learner, is get out there and expose yourself

00:58:56.600 to new ideas, and that will increase your level of agency.

00:59:02.260 Well, Paul Knapper, thanks for your time.

00:59:03.540 It's been a pleasure.

00:59:04.360 Thank you, Brett.

00:59:05.200 Really enjoyed it.

00:59:06.460 My guest name is Paul Knapper.

00:59:07.580 He's the co-author of the book, The Power of Agency.

00:59:10.020 It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.

00:59:12.420 You can find more information about his work at his website, powerofagency.com.

00:59:16.480 Also, check out our show notes at aom.is slash agency, where you can find links to resources,

00:59:21.280 where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:59:29.800 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast.

00:59:32.820 Check out our website at artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives.

00:59:36.540 There's over 500 there, as well as thousands of articles written over the years on things

00:59:40.220 like that relate to agency, how to make better decisions, how to be assertive, things like

00:59:43.680 that.

00:59:43.920 And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate it if you take one minute to give us a review

00:59:47.280 on iTunes or Stitcher.

00:59:48.220 It helps that a lot.

00:59:49.000 And if you've done that already, thank you.

00:59:50.700 Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you think would get something

00:59:53.960 out of it.

00:59:54.540 As always, thank you for the continued support.

00:59:56.540 Until next time, this is Brett McKay reminding you not only to listen to the AOM podcast, but

01:00:00.020 put what you've heard into action.

01:00:13.920 of the B��ain industroe.

01:00:18.160 As always, you go into the CANDATION.

01:00:19.280 You're getting forgotten.

01:00:20.400 Look.

01:00:20.800 Here's what we did in the EOM science show.

01:00:23.020 answers to the CV.

01:00:23.180 Turn on your forehead.

01:00:23.760 There are a few breaths in the destacacy.

01:00:25.000 You can maybe film it that way from each other.

01:00:26.200 That don't seem to have to be HIM.

01:00:28.880 There's enough information in your près, because there's enough trunk to you be still up to you.

The Art of Manliness - May 13, 2019

#507： How to Increase Your Personal Agency

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