The Art of Manliness - #523： How to Keep a Happy Relationship Happy

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:10.760 Now, most marriage and relationship advice books focus on solving problems, but my guests

00:00:14.800 say argue that we shouldn't wait until problems arise in our relationship to work on strengthening

00:00:18.200 it.

00:00:18.540 Instead, they say, when times are good, we should think about how to keep that good and

00:00:21.720 act to make it even better.

00:00:22.740 Their names are James Pawelski and Susan Pilegi Pawelski, and their husband and wife,

00:00:26.420 James has a background in philosophy, and they both have backgrounds in psychology.

00:00:30.200 They combine insights from both fields to write the book, Happy Together, using the

00:00:33.620 science of positive psychology to build love that lasts.

00:00:36.520 We begin our conversation discussing how most relationship advice falls short, the biggest

00:00:40.060 myths people have about relationships, and the contrast between Plato's and Aristotle's

00:00:43.920 approach to relationships.

00:00:45.180 We then dig into the role of emotions play in a relationship, particularly passion, and

00:00:48.520 what we can do to continue to cultivate and experience positive emotions in a marriage

00:00:51.760 even after being together for years.

00:00:53.300 We then dig into how our character influences our relationships and how our relationships

00:00:56.580 influence our character, and James and Susan share insights on how and why to focus on

00:01:00.300 our strengths, help our partners develop their strengths, and even go on a strength state

00:01:03.900 together.

00:01:04.500 We end our conversation talking about the power of appreciation in relationships.

00:01:07.900 After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash happy together.

00:01:11.900 James and Susan, join me now via clearcast.io.

00:01:23.300 All right, James Pawelski, Susan Pawelski, welcome to the show.

00:01:28.580 Thanks, Brett.

00:01:29.260 It's great to be here.

00:01:30.080 Thank you.

00:01:30.580 We're excited to talk with you today.

00:01:32.220 So you two are a married couple who have written a book about relationships, which can

00:01:36.940 be a test of relationships.

00:01:38.520 You've had to put this stuff into practice.

00:01:40.900 It's called Happy Together, Using the Science of Positive Psychology to Build Love That

00:01:45.060 Last.

00:01:45.440 So now there's a lot of relationship books out there.

00:01:48.200 How's this one different from the other ones?

00:01:50.120 Well, it focuses on what can go right in a relationship instead of what can go wrong.

00:01:55.420 And it's based on the science of positive psychology, which studies what makes individuals

00:02:00.500 and communities thrive.

00:02:02.120 There's so many books out there on relationships, but they tend to focus on fixing problems.

00:02:08.020 We're focusing on what are those nuggets of goodness and how can we nurture them to improve

00:02:13.280 our relationships?

00:02:14.320 Let's do a contrast first.

00:02:16.100 As you all have looked at the material out there on relationships, what are some of the

00:02:22.320 biggest myths that you've encountered that people have when it comes to developing a positive

00:02:28.440 flourishing relationship?

00:02:30.500 I feel that in our culture, we focus so much more on the wedding rather than the marriage.

00:02:36.040 So much more on getting married or getting together rather than being together and how to stay

00:02:42.200 happy together.

00:02:43.080 There's pressure on men and women to find that perfect person, which we don't believe exists.

00:02:51.040 And there's so much attention on that through dating apps and dating and so forth.

00:02:56.220 But once you get together and eventually make a commitment or get married, we feel that then

00:03:01.920 there's no focus really out there in culture and what really happens in a marriage.

00:03:06.520 And after the storybook ends, what if we really had part two, part three of a fairy tale?

00:03:12.700 And really saw this couple and their daily, you know, their days together.

00:03:19.020 What is involved?

00:03:20.260 And I feel like nobody talks about that.

00:03:22.220 What are the best practices that can help couples be happier together?

00:03:26.700 We just have this cultural myth of, you know, prince and princess charming.

00:03:31.220 And there's one magical person that's going to forever complete you.

00:03:34.660 And we feel that that does a great disservice to relationships.

00:03:38.320 Relationships actually take work and it's healthy habits that are important.

00:03:44.540 Happily ever after doesn't just happen magically.

00:03:47.320 Yeah, I agree.

00:03:48.360 I think there are two kind of closely connected myths here.

00:03:53.220 One of them is the myth of the soulmate.

00:03:56.240 Now, if by soulmate, you know, soulmate can mean a lot of different things.

00:03:59.640 And if by soulmate, we mean, you know, being deeply connected to somebody, we don't have any

00:04:03.680 problem at all with that word.

00:04:05.100 Obviously, we would advocate that, but sometimes the notion of soulmate takes on this kind of

00:04:10.200 mythical, magical, you know, I'm only half a person until I meet my soulmates.

00:04:16.320 And this meeting is nothing I can really prepare for.

00:04:20.360 It's just kind of sometimes happens.

00:04:22.540 And then there I am, I'm, I'm in this relationship.

00:04:25.540 And then, so the first part of the myth is kind of, you know, this is a fated magical thing.

00:04:31.340 And then the second part of the myth is when it happens, as Susie said, it's just happily

00:04:36.620 ever after.

00:04:37.440 You're just, you're good to go.

00:04:38.600 You're fine.

00:04:39.240 Everything is going to work out really beautifully.

00:04:42.060 And again, we think that that's problematic in part because it takes away the emphasis

00:04:49.240 on what we can do to help to prepare for that.

00:04:53.620 So in other aspects of our lives, think about, you know, our professional lives.

00:04:57.800 Like you don't just imagine that suddenly out of the blue, somebody is going to offer

00:05:02.920 you a career without you having prepared for it.

00:05:06.200 And we also don't imagine that we're going to be able to keep our jobs if we don't work

00:05:10.900 hard at learning, you know, new skills and continuing to, to develop ourselves in that

00:05:17.100 regard.

00:05:17.520 So why do we think about relationships in that way?

00:05:20.060 There's a lot that we can do to prepare ourselves for finding a good partner.

00:05:25.620 And then once we've found that good partner, there's a lot that we can do and need to do

00:05:30.920 to continue to develop the relationship.

00:05:33.380 So this is where that intersection of psychology and philosophy happens.

00:05:36.420 So that idea of that there's some person out there that completes you, that comes from

00:05:40.140 Plato, talks about that in his dialogue, the symposium, right?

00:05:44.500 Where there's like, right.

00:05:45.760 There's two halves.

00:05:46.620 Yeah, that's right.

00:05:47.860 I'll let the philosopher answer here.

00:05:49.640 I can comment on it, but I, he has a big smile on his face that you're talking philosophy.

00:05:53.820 Yeah, so that idea of, you know, that the other half is a very funny story that Plato

00:06:00.480 tells.

00:06:01.060 It puts in the character of a, of a playwright in one of his dialogues.

00:06:06.280 And the story goes that back in the day, we were all round, actually.

00:06:12.200 Human beings had four arms and four legs.

00:06:14.640 And if we were in a hurry, we'd kind of do cartwheels and really go fast to get where

00:06:20.100 we needed to go.

00:06:20.980 But we were so full of ourselves that we rebelled against the gods.

00:06:25.320 And so Zeus realized he had to do something to stop this rebellion.

00:06:29.760 And so he cut us in half.

00:06:32.060 So each person now is a half a person.

00:06:34.760 And so we now only have two arms and two legs.

00:06:38.800 And, but, but then what happened was that, um, this, this Zeus's supposed solution kind

00:06:44.040 of backfired on him because people became so sad and lonely longing for their other half.

00:06:51.400 And so we would do nothing but go around looking for our other half.

00:06:54.820 And when we found our other half, we would embrace that person and forget to eat.

00:07:00.320 We wouldn't offer sacrifices to Zeus and it just didn't work out very well.

00:07:04.060 So that's part of that myth that, um, is, you know, obviously in, in, in, not just in

00:07:09.880 our culture, that there is this other person that all we have to do is to find that person

00:07:15.160 and then we'll, you know, automatically live happily ever after.

00:07:19.000 Zeus made some adjustments, um, in his, uh, in his approach and found a way to, uh, get

00:07:25.380 us to be able to eat again and to offer sacrifices to Zeus.

00:07:29.000 But, Brett, he threatened that if human beings became rebellious again, he would cut us a

00:07:35.040 half in half again.

00:07:36.600 And then we'd have to go hopping around on one foot and with, with just one arm.

00:07:41.320 So we do need to be, uh, humble as we move forward in our lives.

00:07:45.220 Right.

00:07:45.520 So let's talk about another philosopher that you go to that positive psychology looks to

00:07:50.420 a lot.

00:07:50.740 It's a student of Plato.

00:07:51.700 It's Aristotle.

00:07:52.720 And Aristotle had a different idea about relationships and he wrote a lot about, uh,

00:07:57.380 not only friendship, but also marriage.

00:07:59.660 So what does an Aristotelian relationship marriage look like?

00:08:04.940 Well, so to answer that question, I think we probably ought to tell you about our honeymoon,

00:08:08.680 if that's okay with you, Brett.

00:08:10.000 Is this the kind of program where we can talk about?

00:08:12.900 Sure.

00:08:13.340 We can talk about it as long as you don't bring out the slideshow.

00:08:15.800 I think we're good.

00:08:17.200 Yeah.

00:08:18.020 Our Instagram feed.

00:08:19.340 Why don't you start us off?

00:08:20.780 So, so we were talking about, um, how far back in the honeymoon should I talk about?

00:08:27.220 Just our conversation on the beach.

00:08:29.060 So we were sitting on the beach, uh, talking about Aristotle, because I guess that's what

00:08:34.760 one talks about on one's honeymoon, right?

00:08:36.900 Um, if you're married to a philosopher, it is.

00:08:39.040 Sounds good to me.

00:08:40.060 So we were talking about, uh, Aristotle and the Nicodemician ethics, which is, you know,

00:08:45.280 one of the most important books on, uh, the good life.

00:08:48.380 And we were discussing Aristotelian friendship and Aristotle talks about how we love things

00:08:54.800 that are good.

00:08:56.100 We love, or love things that are pleasurable, things that are useful and things that are

00:09:00.640 good.

00:09:01.340 And he says, there's a friendship that corresponds to each level.

00:09:04.940 So we were discussing this and he says how friendships of pleasure, you know, it might be two people

00:09:09.820 going out on the town, partying together and nothing wrong with that.

00:09:13.280 There's pledge.

00:09:14.100 There's relationships of friendships of usefulness.

00:09:17.200 Maybe they're two business partners investing money.

00:09:20.000 And then finally he says there's friendships of goodness.

00:09:22.480 And he says, that's the highest level of friendship.

00:09:25.360 While there's nothing wrong with the first two, we can imagine that if, you know, there's

00:09:30.380 no more pleasure left in the friendship, friendship often falls apart.

00:09:34.120 And likewise, if the business opportunity, maybe, you know, you lose money, you're no longer

00:09:39.240 interacting with that person.

00:09:41.540 However, he says on friendships of goodness, unless the, one of the person's character goes

00:09:47.440 awry, they're much more sustainable because you really see the goodness in one another.

00:09:51.380 So we're sitting on the beach talking about this, having those little, you know, drinks

00:09:55.780 with umbrellas.

00:09:56.720 And I said to James, that's really cool what Aristotle says, but why does he limit this to

00:10:01.640 friendship?

00:10:02.520 What if we took it up a notch and we really applied it to our marriage?

00:10:06.740 And hopefully we'll have some pleasure throughout our marriage, especially on our honeymoon.

00:10:11.540 And definitely, you know, some usefulness.

00:10:13.960 We both bring different skills to the relationship.

00:10:16.940 But what if we ultimately do our best to focus on one another's character and the individual

00:10:23.460 strengths we have and help each other to work on developing those strengths so that we can

00:10:28.820 become better individuals and better as a couple?

00:10:31.740 And he said, I love that idea.

00:10:34.500 So we see, yeah, I can let the philosopher hop in if you want.

00:10:38.120 So we talk about this notion of aristocrat love where, again, you're not ignoring, hopefully

00:10:43.820 you have some pleasure and usefulness.

00:10:45.620 That's important.

00:10:46.320 But if that's all you have in your marriage, that's likely not sustainable.

00:10:52.100 So we talked to couples about focusing on really the goodness, the strengths in your

00:10:57.360 partner and in yourself.

00:10:59.000 And what can you do as individuals to develop those strengths and help facilitate those strengths

00:11:04.340 in your partner?

00:11:05.400 And that's where we look to positive psychology, to the robust research in using science-based

00:11:11.800 findings on how to become Aristotelian lovers.

00:11:16.700 Yeah.

00:11:17.200 And a couple of points of clarification as well.

00:11:20.400 So a lot of people come to relationships looking for what they can get out of them.

00:11:25.040 But this is an approach where we go into relationships looking to what we can put into them and supporting

00:11:32.760 our partner in this regard.

00:11:36.340 Now, if I came into the relationship with Susie and I said, now, Susie, I'm all for you

00:11:42.140 becoming a better person.

00:11:43.540 So I have a 13-point plan for you to become a better person and I'm going to help you through

00:11:48.240 that plan.

00:11:48.860 That probably would not work out so well.

00:11:52.120 There's a big difference between coming into the relationship with a plan for the other

00:11:57.600 person versus coming into the relationship with a plan to support or with the point of

00:12:04.940 supporting that other person in their quest to become a better person.

00:12:10.420 That doesn't mean we can't talk about things and I can provide feedback.

00:12:13.420 I can ask Susie for feedback about how I can become a better person.

00:12:16.200 But it's not me who is the catalyst for her growth.

00:12:20.540 It's her.

00:12:21.680 It's she who is the catalyst for her growth.

00:12:23.400 And it's my role to help support that as best I can.

00:12:27.440 So you use an example from film, kind of highlighting this idea of Aristotelian relationship.

00:12:34.020 So there's the platonic idea of relationship where there's a soulmate out there.

00:12:37.900 There's Jerry Maguire, right, who says, you complete me to Renee Zellweger.

00:12:42.200 And then there's the other movie, As Good As It Gets, with Helen Hunt and Jack Nicholson.

00:12:47.740 And there's that famous scene where Jack Nicholson is like, you make me want to be a better

00:12:51.340 man, awkwardly, because he's this awkward guy.

00:12:55.180 He's an awkward guy.

00:12:56.120 But he captures what you're going for there with the Aristotelian relationship.

00:13:00.580 Exactly.

00:13:01.280 It's one of my favorite movies.

00:13:02.940 And we know from watching the movie, he's not a perfect guy.

00:13:05.860 As we said, we don't believe in the notion of perfection.

00:13:08.820 He comes to her with all his flaws and so forth, but he sees the goodness in Helen Hunt's character.

00:13:16.740 And it's that goodness he sees that really inspires him to want to become better.

00:13:22.040 And we know from positive psychology research, things like inspiration.

00:13:26.700 This is the work of Jonathan Haidt.

00:13:28.840 When you're inspired or in awe, there's physiological changes going on in your body.

00:13:33.900 So your heart actually expands and you're moved to action.

00:13:37.620 When you witness virtue, you want to do something good in response.

00:13:42.040 It's contagious.

00:13:43.180 So in this film, when he says, you make me want to be a better man, she's not making him,

00:13:49.260 be it he's inspired by her.

00:13:52.040 So it's this, you know, self-directed action.

00:13:55.820 As James mentioned, you don't come with a plan to change your partner.

00:13:59.660 The research shows it's interdependence that leads to fulfilling relationships.

00:14:04.960 We don't want to be completely independent and nor do we want to be dependent, which often

00:14:10.460 the sense of soulmates can lead to, but rather interdependent.

00:14:15.020 So it's not focusing on your partner completing you, but rather complimenting you.

00:14:20.980 Well, you know, you know, I know we've been kind of dogging on Plato a bit, but you know,

00:14:24.360 that idea Plato in the Symposium talks about the whole point of it was that love towards

00:14:28.820 a person can be what inspires you to the good, right?

00:14:33.320 So it's like a ladder that takes you.

00:14:34.920 So you fall in love with the person, they inspire you, and that sort of somehow draws

00:14:40.120 you to the good in its platonic form.

00:14:43.080 And the same thing's going on there.

00:14:44.300 It's like you see someone who inspires you, makes you want to be a better person, and helps

00:14:48.060 you become a more virtuous person in the process.

00:14:50.800 Yeah, that's exactly right.

00:14:51.820 We can, you know, just the other thing that comes to my mind is like an elementary school

00:14:55.920 teacher, right?

00:14:56.600 You can be inspired by that person, or even sometimes develop a crush on your teacher,

00:15:00.820 and that motivates you to want to learn.

00:15:03.740 And so there is this kind of a drawing, not a pushing, but a kind of a pulling and inviting

00:15:08.680 kind of thing.

00:15:09.820 And we can get really inspired, as Susie said, when we see someone, we see their character,

00:15:16.240 and we say, wow, that's just a, that's a really, that's an example of goodness instantiated.

00:15:23.680 And then that can really inspire us and be a great basis for love.

00:15:29.060 And I imagine it helps when two people come together in a relationship where they have

00:15:32.680 that idea of, that common idea of living the good life.

00:15:36.580 Like there's something higher that they're both achieving.

00:15:39.460 It's not just about like, okay, you're married, you know, getting married to you and help me

00:15:42.800 my career because you're gonna be able to watch the kids and blah, blah, blah.

00:15:45.400 It's like, it's something bigger than that, that allows you to experience that Aristotelian

00:15:50.560 relationship.

00:15:52.020 Definitely.

00:15:52.620 I think making it like a marital mission statement.

00:15:56.440 That's what we did on our honeymoon.

00:15:58.640 And so like, really, what do we want our marriage to be about?

00:16:02.340 And I think, especially during, you know, tough times, trying times, going back to that

00:16:07.240 and saying, what's the ultimate goal?

00:16:08.900 So if you're both working towards something, you know, becoming better and becoming a stronger

00:16:14.560 team and doing good out there in the world, then I think it helps keep your focus on that

00:16:20.980 and instead of getting stuck on the day-to-day sort of, you know, annoyances and so forth.

00:16:26.460 So we've been talking very high level.

00:16:27.740 Let's get, start getting nitty gritty here.

00:16:29.560 So the first half of your book seems to focus on managing the emotions in a relationship

00:16:34.460 because Aristotle talks a lot about that.

00:16:36.180 For him, emotions aren't bad.

00:16:38.220 He's not like a stoic where you got to like be like, eliminate all, you know, bad emotions,

00:16:42.120 but he says that you need to manage them so they're useful and can help you lead to that

00:16:46.120 flourishing life.

00:16:46.740 In the first part of the book, you talk about passion.

00:16:49.480 And when we typically think of romantic relationships, we think of passion, but you guys argue that

00:16:54.000 there's good passion and there's bad passion or unhealthy passion.

00:16:57.420 Talk about those two.

00:16:58.700 Sure.

00:16:59.120 So again, getting back to pop culture, since we like to talk about pop culture, we feel that

00:17:04.300 so much of the focus out there that people grow up with of passion is an unhealthy passion.

00:17:11.560 It's that feeling swept away.

00:17:13.740 I can't live without you.

00:17:15.600 You know, whether it's greeting cards or movies or music, it's this, you know, you're my one

00:17:21.120 and only, you complete me.

00:17:22.860 I don't know what I'm going to do without you.

00:17:24.680 And while it may feel good in the moment, the research shows that this all-consuming urge

00:17:31.540 or desire where you can't stand on your own two feet is actually a form of obsession, what

00:17:38.000 they call obsessive passion.

00:17:41.780 And again, let me just say that in the beginning of a relationship, of course, you're likely to

00:17:47.800 feel that this way.

00:17:48.940 You know, romantic love, but if months, years into the relationship, you still can't focus on

00:17:55.060 what's going on at work or you're no longer seeing your friends, your personality's completely

00:18:00.300 changed, you might not be so much in love, but rather more obsessed with the other person.

00:18:06.280 The good news is that there's also a healthy form of passion.

00:18:10.480 And this is what Bob Valoran's research is called a harmonious passion.

00:18:14.900 And this is the passion where you love your partner, you may do things together often,

00:18:20.400 but also on your own, you're still maintaining your interests, the activities that you did

00:18:26.740 before your relationship.

00:18:28.260 You're still seeing your friends, your personality's the same.

00:18:31.880 And I think a lot of people kind of confuse the two because if they feel, you know, years

00:18:38.540 into the relationship, I'm no longer feeling that, you know, all-consuming sense.

00:18:43.440 Maybe it's the wrong person.

00:18:45.940 Maybe I should leave this relationship or marriage and find somebody else.

00:18:50.920 And we've interviewed a lot of people, you know, when we were putting together this book

00:18:55.740 who were sort of, I'd say, obsessed with obsession, that from one relationship to the next, as soon

00:19:02.260 as those high arousal emotions sort of calmed down into more companion feelings of love, they

00:19:09.960 thought that there was something wrong.

00:19:11.700 And I think a lot of this is because we often have these myths, as we discussed in the beginning,

00:19:18.060 what a healthy relationship is.

00:19:20.360 So infatuation in the beginning of a relationship, it's healthy, it draws a couple closer together,

00:19:23.540 but then it has to shift to something else.

00:19:25.200 It doesn't mean that there's no passion, no erotic passion.

00:19:28.580 I think a lot of people like being in the relationship.

00:19:31.120 And I think that's your point about the idea of a healthy passion is you do things together

00:19:36.080 that you both enjoy and you enjoy being together, but also maintaining a distinct part of your life.

00:19:42.420 Like that can actually help that sort of erotic passion, right?

00:19:46.160 Because like that's all about, it's all about desiring and desiring requires like an otherness,

00:19:50.660 right?

00:19:50.840 Like you don't completely know the person.

00:19:52.720 So by having, you know, separate lives that you have your own thing can actually encourage

00:19:57.960 that sort of passion that we like at the beginning of a relationship.

00:20:00.880 Yeah, definitely.

00:20:03.360 Oh, sorry, James.

00:20:04.220 Go ahead.

00:20:04.620 I'm just going to say, yeah, they talk about new and novel activities.

00:20:08.400 I mean, we know in general from research doing the same thing, whether it's in a relationship

00:20:12.320 at work or elsewhere, you know, there's monotony, boredom, you fall into regret.

00:20:16.760 So it's important to always be proactive, novel activities.

00:20:20.280 How can you do things differently and keeping the spark alive?

00:20:23.800 And to your point, Brett, keeping those activities and interests, it's likely what,

00:20:28.240 you know, attracted your partner to you.

00:20:30.520 And likewise, all too often we get together with our partner and we feel that we have

00:20:35.480 to be, you know, at his or her beck and call.

00:20:37.940 And we may give up some of those activities and interests.

00:20:41.220 And the research shows and experience shows that that's not healthy.

00:20:46.140 We should continue being who we are and maintaining those hobbies outside of our relationship as

00:20:52.060 well, as long as they're healthy ones, of course.

00:20:54.060 Yeah, that's extremely important.

00:20:56.140 And maybe a metaphor here can be helpful, too.

00:20:59.860 If you think about what it takes to light a campfire, you know, you want to have kindling,

00:21:04.960 you want to have some dry leaves, maybe some small sticks and light that on fire.

00:21:09.340 And man, does it go up quickly.

00:21:11.620 But if that's all you have, then it's going to go out pretty quickly.

00:21:16.260 And I think that's what a lot of people experience in their relationships.

00:21:19.380 It's like this immediate spark and excitement, enthusiasm, and then it kind of peters out.

00:21:24.660 So what you need to do in a campfire is you need to have some bigger sticks and some logs

00:21:29.600 there to catch on fire.

00:21:32.220 And so that when that initial energy is there with the kindling starting up, it's then also

00:21:37.500 heating up the logs and catching them on fire.

00:21:40.000 Now, when a log is caught on fire, it doesn't immediately go up in these, you know, flames

00:21:44.940 and all that passion in that sense.

00:21:48.400 But it's a longer burn.

00:21:50.200 And part of what then can happen, first of all, it's more sustainable.

00:21:54.480 But then with that longer burn, that then allows for an opportunity for those flare-ups

00:21:59.240 to happen from time to time, right?

00:22:01.520 And so maybe some more leaves get piled on and then suddenly there's that spark again.

00:22:07.360 So as Susie was saying, those new experiences can be a kind of rekindling from time to time.

00:22:13.600 Not that we're expecting to live in that moment of conflagration all the time, that fiery

00:22:20.060 passion all the time.

00:22:21.420 That's not healthy for human beings.

00:22:24.440 But to have those on occasion within the context of this longer, sustainable relationship is

00:22:30.940 what we're looking for.

00:22:32.540 All right.

00:22:32.660 So one way to encourage or promote that healthy passion, do novel things together.

00:22:39.160 Don't just get in a rut.

00:22:40.140 Any other things that people can do to develop that healthy passion?

00:22:42.540 Sharing something, like a secret with your partner that you never told him or her.

00:22:47.800 We think, unfortunately, when we get in a relationship and maybe together for a number of years, that

00:22:53.780 we know everything about our partner.

00:22:55.360 And I think that does a lot of harm to the relationship.

00:22:58.040 Being curious and sharing.

00:22:59.680 I mean, we don't know everything there is about ourselves.

00:23:02.760 This is actually something my philosopher husband would say, right, James?

00:23:05.240 We never know ourselves completely.

00:23:07.800 How can we know the other person?

00:23:09.260 And maybe it's a childhood memory or a fantasy you had or, you know, a line of work that you've

00:23:15.520 always wanted to do.

00:23:17.140 But I think having these conversations about ideas and sharing parts of yourself with your

00:23:23.480 partner regularly so that you're continuing to grow together and learn more about one another

00:23:31.160 on a deeper level can keep the relationship from just being on the surface and getting into

00:23:36.780 the relationship routines.

00:23:38.060 So we talked about passion.

00:23:39.420 Another aspect you talk about with emotions is fostering positive emotions in a relationship.

00:23:44.420 And as you said earlier, most relationship books are about mitigating the negative emotions,

00:23:50.220 right?

00:23:50.420 So it's like if your couple's fighting, here's some things not to fight about.

00:23:53.420 If a couple's not doing this, here's what you do.

00:23:55.720 So what can we do to foster positive emotions within a relationship?

00:24:03.180 In the beginning of a relationship, it seems like we have so many positive emotions, right?

00:24:07.200 And a lot of people, I think, just fall back thinking about, you know, how joyous they felt

00:24:13.280 or excited or, you know, how much passion, which, you know, it's great to have a lot of

00:24:18.620 those emotions.

00:24:19.120 But I think, first of all, is realizing that just like happily ever after doesn't just happen,

00:24:26.640 positive emotions don't just happen.

00:24:29.380 In the beginning of a relationship, you're going to have a higher frequency.

00:24:32.540 It's just, you know, it's just what happens and the intensity and the newness of the relationship.

00:24:38.000 But that doesn't mean there's nothing you can do.

00:24:40.840 The research shows we have to practice positive emotions and prioritize them in our lives,

00:24:46.960 which basically means people, individuals, and couples who plan their day by organizing

00:24:54.820 activities for themselves as well as, you know, with their partner will experience more positive

00:25:00.760 emotions than those who just wait around for them to happen.

00:25:04.720 So, for example, take time to reflect.

00:25:07.580 What is it for you and for your partner together?

00:25:10.800 Because it might be different, you know, to the individual than to the couple.

00:25:14.240 What are those activities that really bring you joy, that make you feel good or make you

00:25:18.600 feel peaceful?

00:25:19.800 And then schedule them into your day.

00:25:21.860 Like for me, I have to get outside every day.

00:25:24.300 I like to do a long outdoor run.

00:25:26.840 So, is that something individually I do for myself?

00:25:30.420 I'm going to feel better.

00:25:31.620 I'm going to have more positive emotions.

00:25:33.660 And then it's going to be, you know, positivity is contagious.

00:25:36.540 I'm going to be in a good mood.

00:25:37.780 It's going to help James be in a good mood.

00:25:39.440 But what are those activities together that we can do that both people enjoy?

00:25:45.240 And how can we schedule them into our day?

00:25:47.600 And I think it's also important to note that there are many, many positive emotions.

00:25:52.900 Barbara Fredrickson research shows that there's like at least 10 that we frequent on, you know,

00:25:59.260 pretty much in our lives.

00:26:01.040 But unfortunately, people just focus on the, I think, especially in America, the high arousal

00:26:06.260 positive emotions, like those you have in the beginning of a relationship.

00:26:10.660 But it's important to note that there's a whole range of emotions.

00:26:15.220 And as the relationship develops, it's actually the calmer emotions that are associated with

00:26:22.020 a long-term love.

00:26:23.780 So, in the beginning, it might be, you know, the high arousal emotion of, you know, a sense

00:26:27.920 of your buoyance, curiosity, which is great in interest.

00:26:31.900 And then as the relationship matures, gratitude.

00:26:34.860 I'm so thankful this person's in my life.

00:26:38.040 And I'm in all of him.

00:26:41.000 And I feel a sense of serenity.

00:26:43.340 You know, the bonding, the cuddle hormone, they talk about oxytocin when that's released.

00:26:47.620 It actually brings the relationship to a more peaceful level and a more mature level.

00:26:52.860 So, look at all of these positive emotions and figure out activities in your life that you

00:26:58.320 can do together to bring more positive emotions into your relationship.

00:27:02.680 I think it was, you talk about research from John Gottman, where he says, like, it's, you

00:27:07.820 know, couples that fight or argue, like, that's not what predicts whether a marriage breaks

00:27:13.080 up.

00:27:13.840 That's part of a healthy marriage.

00:27:15.620 What predicts it, if there's no, like, positive interactions that they have after that or during

00:27:20.460 the day, so that there's something that counterbalances that.

00:27:23.180 And I think he has like a ratio, it's like five to one, so like five, you need to have

00:27:26.320 five positive encounters with a person in your relationship for every one negative one.

00:27:32.960 Yeah.

00:27:33.240 And so, we heard, we invited John and Julie Gottman to come and speak in our Master of

00:27:37.780 Applied Positive Psychology program a few years ago.

00:27:40.100 And they were talking about that, and they clarified, that's actually for couples, healthy

00:27:45.540 couples when they're fighting.

00:27:47.280 Okay.

00:27:47.800 So, imagine having a fight, and during that fight, there's a five to one ratio of positive

00:27:54.400 to negative.

00:27:55.280 They said that in regular experiences with those couples, it's more like 20 to one.

00:27:59.760 So, I think we all have some work to do to make sure that those ratios are maintained.

00:28:04.800 And also, with their work and with other Shelly Gable's work, there was always so much focus

00:28:10.560 in the past, before these researchers showing the fixing problems, as we mentioned, which

00:28:15.580 of course is important.

00:28:17.080 But the research shows it's more important to celebrate the good times and focus on what's

00:28:22.160 going well.

00:28:23.600 And we think a lot of couples, you know, miss those opportunities.

00:28:27.640 You know, good things happen to us at a much greater frequency.

00:28:31.060 But unfortunately, it's, you know, that toothache or, you know, that cut on your leg that you're

00:28:35.520 noticing.

00:28:36.140 You're not noticing those days that you're enjoying great health or the sun shining or

00:28:40.740 your partner's extra nice.

00:28:42.660 And unfortunately, we often take those things for granted.

00:28:46.200 And sadly, a lot more couples fall apart and, you know, break up or get divorced, it seems,

00:28:53.300 because of feeling not being appreciated and not being acknowledged.

00:28:58.680 We're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.

00:29:02.020 And now back to the show.

00:29:03.740 So yeah, we have a tendency to focus on the negative and ignore the good.

00:29:07.360 And so because of that, you can be in a relationship where you think everything's actually might

00:29:11.920 be better than you think.

00:29:13.260 But because you're focusing on the negative, you think, oh, my marriage is terrible.

00:29:16.500 But one way to counteract that is savoring, which is, I mean, we think of savoring eating

00:29:21.260 food.

00:29:21.740 But what does that savoring look like in a relationship? 1.00

00:29:24.780 Yeah.

00:29:25.100 So Susie mentioned that early on in a relationship, it seems like all these positive emotions are just

00:29:29.800 kind of there.

00:29:30.840 And we think, oh, the rest of life is going to be exactly this way.

00:29:34.020 And, you know, you kind of have to get back to work and things happen and the relationship

00:29:40.620 matures and it's not quite that initial kindling conflagration that we had at the beginning.

00:29:45.820 And so that's one reason why it's important to cultivate positive emotions by doing things,

00:29:51.400 for example, that can evoke them.

00:29:53.000 It's also important to focus on remembering the things that have gone well.

00:29:59.980 And so reliving old times can be a great way of reconnecting and savoring.

00:30:05.700 We all have these amazing memories that we're carrying around with us all the time.

00:30:11.240 We just typically don't access them.

00:30:13.180 And so we may be having a bad day like, oh, this is terrible.

00:30:16.840 Life is miserable.

00:30:17.520 But, man, there's a lot just waiting to be discovered or rediscovered in those memories.

00:30:23.200 Also, savoring can be about the present, just being present in the moment and soaking up

00:30:29.500 what's there.

00:30:31.360 Again, we tend to, in our relational lives, in our work lives, just our lives in general,

00:30:36.220 we tend to say, oh, well, you know, I can go into work and talk with my colleagues about

00:30:42.680 what a miserable weekend I had or how awful the traffic was getting into work and make these

00:30:48.440 stories long and so forth.

00:30:50.000 But what about spending some time talking with them about things that are really going well

00:30:54.580 in one's life, in the work life, and so forth?

00:30:58.180 So having that, again, having that kind of a balance, being open when things are,

00:31:03.360 you know, when there's a moment of connection, don't hurry through it.

00:31:06.280 Be there and allow it to unfold and be open to it.

00:31:10.740 And then about the future, it's possible to have anticipatory savoring.

00:31:16.180 So my wife Susie and I are right now, we're planning, preparing for a trip to Australia

00:31:21.660 in a few weeks.

00:31:22.680 And so thinking about what we're likely to encounter there, what people will meet, what

00:31:27.800 experiences we might have, that can be a source of joy as we anticipate what might happen.

00:31:33.620 Now, it's important to distinguish between expectation and anticipatory savoring.

00:31:38.520 So if I say, okay, Susie, here is what our first day in Australia is going to look like.

00:31:43.160 We're going to go to, you know, a place where we can see the kangaroos, we're going to take

00:31:47.340 our son to a soccer match, and we have it all planned out.

00:31:51.020 That's exactly how it has to happen.

00:31:53.380 We all know how life goes.

00:31:55.060 It doesn't necessarily happen as we, you know, as we expect.

00:31:59.440 And so if I'm really committed to it having to happen that way for me to be happy, that

00:32:03.820 can be a problem.

00:32:04.960 But if I anticipate, we plan, and then whatever happens that day, if it turns out to be such

00:32:10.200 a rainy day that the kangaroos are undercover, well, there are other things that we can do

00:32:14.380 to enjoy the day.

00:32:15.520 And that allows us to be flexible, even while anticipating good things in the future.

00:32:20.060 All right.

00:32:20.620 So we've talked about emotions, developing healthy passion and encouraging more positive

00:32:25.260 emotions in our relationship.

00:32:26.860 Let's talk about the other part of an Aristotelian relationship, which is character.

00:32:31.140 So positive psychology talks a lot about character.

00:32:35.920 How does, in the world of positive psychology, how do they define character?

00:32:40.380 Sure.

00:32:40.860 So in brief, positive psychology, I'm going to give you a very brief summary of the research.

00:32:46.860 So in brief, positive psychologists looked across cultures and time, and they found that

00:32:51.760 there are 24 strengths that are ubiquitous.

00:32:54.240 So think that everybody has in different dimensions, things like love, leadership, gratitude, zest.

00:33:03.380 So there's 24 of these strengths, and we all have them, is the good news.

00:33:07.440 We have them in different configurations.

00:33:09.460 And these strengths, along with our backgrounds, our personalities, our upbringing, makes us unique

00:33:14.900 from one another.

00:33:16.160 And people can find out what their strengths are.

00:33:19.140 Their top five strengths are called your signature strengths.

00:33:21.640 So, Brett, this is something that just naturally makes you, you.

00:33:25.080 Like, maybe you're just naturally creative and a leader.

00:33:28.080 So it's not about skill.

00:33:29.540 It's not about intellect.

00:33:30.980 But it's those inherent qualities that we all have.

00:33:34.060 And most people, when they take the strengths test, you know, they agree with it.

00:33:37.280 They're like, yeah, that's just who I am, right?

00:33:40.060 So listeners can actually find out their top strengths if they go to our website at buildhappytogether.com.

00:33:46.960 And it's a free test, the VIA test.

00:33:49.160 It takes about 10 minutes.

00:33:50.180 So, okay, you know what your top strengths are.

00:33:53.180 Now what?

00:33:53.980 So the research shows that by practicing your strengths on a daily basis, you know, in your

00:33:59.040 relationship, in your leisure activities, at work, is associated with greater individual

00:34:04.880 well-being.

00:34:05.880 And when it comes to a relationship, using your strengths together as a team and help facilitating

00:34:12.120 strength use in your partner leads to a greater relational satisfaction and better sexual

00:34:18.420 satisfaction.

00:34:19.040 So why not help your partner facilitate his or her strengths?

00:34:23.060 The problem is, it seems in the beginning in a relationship, often it's those strengths

00:34:28.240 of our partner that attracted us maybe to him.

00:34:32.200 So James, can I just give a personal example?

00:34:35.020 Sure.

00:34:35.220 Okay, so anybody who knows my husband or anybody who really knows him, he really, really loves

00:34:41.280 to learn.

00:34:42.100 Like Brett, I love to learn, but nowhere near to the level that James does.

00:34:46.440 So when I met him, I was intrigued.

00:34:48.300 He was one person who had a lot more books than I did in my apartment.

00:34:53.000 I was like, wow.

00:34:53.760 And I was blown away.

00:34:54.720 And I used to, you know, finger through the books and look at them.

00:34:57.420 And years later into our relationship, I'm like, really, you're buying another book?

00:35:02.660 Like how many more books do we need in our house?

00:35:04.680 We have no room for anything but books.

00:35:07.300 And then I would start getting annoyed thinking he's like trying to irritate me by coming home

00:35:11.500 with, you know, 20 more books.

00:35:13.240 And I think it's interesting because what initially intrigued us often sometimes annoys us because

00:35:19.920 we're not looking at the relationship through a length of strengths.

00:35:24.660 We're thinking maybe our partner is intentionally trying to annoy us.

00:35:28.320 Instead, remembering, wait a minute, I fell in love with this guy partially because of who he is

00:35:35.080 and how much he loved to learn.

00:35:37.400 So how can we look back and say, oh, you know, my partner, it's his love of learning that is

00:35:42.840 having him, you know, behave in this way.

00:35:45.360 That's who he is and accept him rather than change him.

00:35:49.680 And if I can piggyback on that, that's great, Susie.

00:35:53.280 The going back to Aristotle and of course have to bring Aristotle in here.

00:35:57.680 It's been a while since we've said much about him.

00:36:00.120 So what he said is that character comes from habits.

00:36:05.760 And so what we want to do in our lives is not just make the right choice in a particular

00:36:10.520 situation, but be the kind of person who habitually makes the right choice.

00:36:16.320 So it's not just, oh, I found a wallet with a hundred dollars in it.

00:36:19.860 I'm what should I do?

00:36:21.360 Should I keep it?

00:36:22.460 Should I?

00:36:23.500 Okay, I'll I'll return it.

00:36:25.460 But we're the kind of person who you find a wallet with a hundred dollars and it's not

00:36:28.880 even a question.

00:36:29.740 You're immediately looking for who this person belongs, who the money belongs to.

00:36:34.240 So you can return the wallet.

00:36:36.080 So thinking about character, thinking about these character strengths as habits in our

00:36:42.120 lives and how can we be aware of what habits we have that are helpful, that are conducive

00:36:49.260 to good relationships and what habits that have snuck into our lives that really aren't.

00:36:54.740 And what can we do to disrupt those unhelpful habits and to cultivate and support the good

00:37:01.320 habits?

00:37:01.760 And so these character strengths are, it's a, it's a great list, a great classification

00:37:08.400 of a lot of really good kinds of habits that we can develop and have in our lives and in

00:37:15.460 our relationships.

00:37:16.320 Now, as Susie said, there, when, when we're in the context of a relationship, sometimes we

00:37:21.320 can overuse these strengths or underuse these strengths.

00:37:24.660 And so it's a matter of, you know, as Aristotle says, it's easy to become angry, but it's

00:37:30.520 hard to become angry in the right occasion, to the right degree, with the right person

00:37:35.580 and so on.

00:37:36.520 So we need to be careful about, as we get more experienced about knowing, recognizing what

00:37:42.740 our signature strengths are, how we can use them in the context of the relationship in

00:37:48.020 a way that will be optimally effective and helpful.

00:37:51.740 And like, what does that look like?

00:37:52.840 So, I mean, I can see how understanding your strengths and your partner's strengths, I

00:37:57.440 mean, intuitively would be useful in a relationship, but like, what does that, like, can you guys

00:38:01.020 give us an example of that playing out in a relationship?

00:38:04.440 Sure.

00:38:04.940 So we first suggest to couples to take a strengths test, or if they don't, they could just, you

00:38:09.280 know, intuitively either know, or, well, I shouldn't say intuitively know, ask their

00:38:14.440 partner, you know, what their strength.

00:38:16.020 So even if James didn't take a test, he'd say, well, I really love to learn.

00:38:19.240 And I might say, you know, I love being adventurous.

00:38:22.360 I'm very zestful.

00:38:23.700 And then having the first part is having strengths conversations.

00:38:27.960 I think, again, in the beginning of relationship, we're so curious about one another.

00:38:32.360 You know, we have marathon conversations.

00:38:34.000 We're talking all the time.

00:38:35.720 Shortly afterwards, it seems like we fall into right.

00:38:38.240 We think we know all there is about our partner, but we don't.

00:38:41.280 So having something called a strengths conversation is where you specifically discuss each other's

00:38:47.460 strengths, and you go deeper than just saying, oh, I love to learn.

00:38:50.860 I might ask James, well, how did your love of learning really lead you to become a philosopher

00:38:55.940 and a minor?

00:38:57.880 I think he had, what, six minors?

00:38:59.760 What is it about the strength of yours that not only led you down a certain career path,

00:39:04.360 but maybe turned down opportunities?

00:39:06.520 Maybe he doesn't want to do certain things because he feels like he's not learning.

00:39:09.700 And go in really deeper with that.

00:39:11.920 And he would ask me similar conversations.

00:39:14.800 You know, how can you use your zest better?

00:39:17.300 Like, where do you get a sense of joy using that strength?

00:39:20.660 Might we go on a hiking trip and we can explore and, you know, be in nature more?

00:39:25.660 How could you use your sense of creativity more?

00:39:28.120 So it's having those conversations and having them all the time because our strengths aren't

00:39:33.620 set like it is like a blood type at certain points of your life.

00:39:36.900 I mean, there's nothing magical about the first five.

00:39:39.940 They call them your signature strengths.

00:39:41.440 But maybe a strength that's a little lower might move higher up, you know, later on in

00:39:46.100 your life.

00:39:46.480 So there might be a certain time where you're going through an experience and maybe you

00:39:50.400 never really considered yourself a really brave person, but maybe you didn't really have

00:39:53.960 an opportunity to use your sense of bravery.

00:39:56.920 So you might be going through a challenge and, you know, suddenly it's something like bravery

00:40:01.360 you're practicing.

00:40:02.120 I think it's important to have these discussions because we're multifaceted about the complexities

00:40:08.860 of our nature to really understand each other.

00:40:12.160 And then I was going to say also, so the strengths conversations is one thing, sitting down with

00:40:16.200 your partner regularly.

00:40:17.780 It's not like, okay, I had my strengths conversation.

00:40:20.220 I'm talking about these things instead of just talking about, you know, the superficial.

00:40:25.500 And then next, we would suggest that all couples go on a strength state.

00:40:30.480 And a strength state is where you choose one of your strengths and one of your partners

00:40:36.000 and together you create a date or an outing where you both have the opportunity to use

00:40:42.760 that strength.

00:40:43.660 So one fun example of ours, for instance, since I'm talking about James's love of learning

00:40:48.140 and my zest, we got together and we were like, okay, what can we do with love of learning

00:40:53.000 and zest?

00:40:53.500 So we decided to rent Segways and we did a historical tour of Philadelphia where we live.

00:41:00.380 And it was really, really fun.

00:41:01.860 We have pictures we can send to you.

00:41:04.260 We were zipping around the neighborhood.

00:41:05.800 I had more fun on the zipping around part.

00:41:07.920 I was listening to the historical part because I like to learn too, but not to the degree that

00:41:12.920 James does.

00:41:14.040 But Brett, I got to tell you, we had such a fun time.

00:41:16.320 And I think it was one of our best dates.

00:41:18.460 James is smiling, but I don't want to speak for you.

00:41:20.400 So, you know, at the end of the day, we talked about it.

00:41:23.540 My sense of adventure was fulfilled and his sense of his love of learning was piqued.

00:41:28.860 But we can't just stop there.

00:41:30.540 There's thousands of, I forget how many combinations he said of strengths, right?

00:41:35.480 Thousands, James?

00:41:36.360 A whole lot.

00:41:36.740 Or maybe more than thousands.

00:41:38.020 But maybe we could take, we both have a top strength of creativity.

00:41:41.640 What's something we can do creative together?

00:41:43.520 Or imagine if we talked to couples, one who had kindness and one had humor.

00:41:47.760 What's something funny you can do and kind?

00:41:51.100 And they went and they did something with a homeless shelter in the neighborhood.

00:41:55.640 And so there's just many different things.

00:41:58.200 And the research shows, as I mentioned previously, when you use your strengths, you have greater

00:42:03.380 individual well-being.

00:42:04.620 And when couples do it together, they have a greater connection, physical as well as sexual

00:42:11.100 and emotional connection, because it's really showing that you get this other person and

00:42:16.860 you're helping him or her bring their best self to the table and, you know, their authentic

00:42:22.320 self.

00:42:22.920 Not what you want them to be, but who they are, rather than dragging your partner, you know,

00:42:28.280 on a date to something that, you know, he or she's really not interested in.

00:42:34.040 Let me just add one.

00:42:35.300 It's great, Susan.

00:42:36.120 Let me just piggyback one thing.

00:42:37.640 And let's say that my love of learning, I was overusing that love of learning and spending

00:42:43.300 all of my time with my nose in books and Susie and my son, Liam, felt neglected because I

00:42:50.460 wasn't even noticing them because I was so eager to learn.

00:42:55.640 Well, one way in which strengths can work, it's not, we're not just advocating, well,

00:43:00.420 sorry, that's my strength.

00:43:01.480 So that's what I'm doing.

00:43:02.340 But I could actually use my strengths in a way to shore up my weaknesses, as Marty Seligman

00:43:09.940 suggests, or I can use my strengths in a way to help the relationship by, for example,

00:43:17.620 learning more about Susie or learning more about relationships.

00:43:22.960 And so the strength itself can become a vehicle for me developing other parts of myself that

00:43:30.540 are important in the context of a relationship.

00:43:32.180 That's a really great point.

00:43:33.420 So it's not bringing a book to our son, Liam's soccer championship, but maybe James delving

00:43:39.900 deeper into her soccer history, our son's a real lover of soccer and learning about the

00:43:44.940 sport.

00:43:46.140 Right.

00:43:46.740 So, so it's not, so, okay, that's a good point about weaknesses.

00:43:49.140 So we all have these strengths in various forms that some of them are stronger than others.

00:43:53.580 I think the typical approach when people say, I've got this weak spot, I got to devote all

00:43:57.060 my time building that up.

00:43:59.360 So if like, you're not a thoughtful person, I think it's one of the social intelligence,

00:44:03.680 right?

00:44:04.680 Kindness is one of those strengths.

00:44:05.920 Sure.

00:44:06.080 Kind of goes with that.

00:44:06.900 Like you don't like make it a habit.

00:44:08.300 Okay.

00:44:08.440 I'm going to be like, I'm going to do one thoughtful thing a day.

00:44:11.020 Like, cause that can be counterproductive, right?

00:44:14.280 Yeah.

00:44:14.520 Instead, you find like, you find a strength that you have that you can, that you can focus

00:44:18.160 on, lean into more that'll allow you to be thoughtful naturally.

00:44:21.460 Would that be a good way to say it?

00:44:22.860 Yeah.

00:44:23.400 So think of it in terms of, you know, baseball, we're just talking about a sports analogy.

00:44:27.120 Think about baseball and think about a pitcher.

00:44:29.300 Now, at least in the major leagues, perhaps the greatest weakness that a pitcher has tends

00:44:35.620 to be batting.

00:44:36.300 And so if a pitcher said, boy, I really got this weakness of batting, I need to practice

00:44:41.900 batting and they stopped practicing their pitching so that they could practice their

00:44:46.260 batting, what would happen?

00:44:48.420 I mean, maybe they would become a marginally better batter.

00:44:51.680 They probably are not going to become a champion batter, but in the meantime, they're going to

00:44:56.420 lose the skill for which they're valued and for which they have a spot on the roster.

00:45:02.940 Right?

00:45:03.120 So that would be an example of, you know, in that context, you rely on, you know, you

00:45:07.540 want to be as good of a hitter as you reasonably can, but you rely on your teammates to help

00:45:11.560 pick up the hitting and you're focusing on the pitching.

00:45:15.140 Now, if it turns out that you say, well, you know, I'm just not a kind person, that's my

00:45:21.020 weakness, so I'm not going to work on kindness.

00:45:23.060 Well, no, we all need to be at least somewhat kind.

00:45:26.360 So there are, so again, this isn't an excuse for just being, you know, a terrible person and

00:45:31.420 saying, well, that's not my, that's not my strength.

00:45:34.060 But if a pitcher is so good at pitching, then that can overcome from a team perspective,

00:45:43.680 that can overcome the deficit that might arise when their batting average isn't that high.

00:45:50.140 And then, so that's one way of thinking about it.

00:45:52.220 But then, as I mentioned with love of learning, there are times when the strength itself can

00:45:57.940 also help you in your, so let's say kindness, right?

00:46:02.740 So let's say I'm just, I've been getting some feedback that I'm not as kind as I need to

00:46:06.780 be.

00:46:07.360 Well, then how can I use my love of learning or a strength of love or a strength of gratitude,

00:46:14.880 whatever strengths that I have, how can I use that to find out more about this lesser

00:46:21.580 strength or this area of weakness that I have and work on that?

00:46:24.820 Because it's a lot more fun to use our strengths than it is to be like, okay, great.

00:46:30.160 Now I got to work on my weakness again.

00:46:31.880 Right.

00:46:32.060 And so another way you can use your strengths to shore up your weaknesses, say that love of

00:46:36.260 learning kindness example, say you're not typically kind or thoughtful, but you can like

00:46:41.020 lean into your love of learning.

00:46:42.700 So if you see your wife having a problem, you can do some research.

00:46:46.760 Hey, I want to, I'm going to research this problem for you.

00:46:48.620 Here's some possible things.

00:46:49.860 So you're, you're using your love of learning to be thoughtful.

00:46:54.120 Excellent.

00:46:54.680 Love it.

00:46:55.200 Yep.

00:46:55.680 All right.

00:46:56.120 Yeah.

00:46:56.280 He does that all the time.

00:46:58.340 But yeah, you have to use like, he's also very kind, but you got it, but again, you

00:47:03.280 have to, like, as James said, you got to use that Aristotelian phronesis, right?

00:47:07.300 That practical wisdom.

00:47:08.200 Like you could probably do like, do that all the time, but sometimes it might not be what

00:47:12.940 you really want.

00:47:14.220 Susie's like, that's kind of annoying at this time.

00:47:16.020 I didn't want, I didn't want a portfolio, like a presentation of my problem.

00:47:20.560 I just wanted you to listen.

00:47:22.580 So you got to, you got to use some practical wisdom.

00:47:24.960 I mean, I was taught the golden rule is all you need, you know, to be happy together,

00:47:29.460 treat others as you want to be treated.

00:47:31.620 And then after we got married and realized that wasn't the case.

00:47:34.780 So then we talk about the notion of, you know, while the golden rule, it's good intentions,

00:47:39.900 it's good to start with, it's limited.

00:47:42.960 And so then we think, well, what about the platinum rule?

00:47:45.320 That's when you treat others the way they want to be treated.

00:47:48.460 Well, that's good to a point.

00:47:50.180 But if I just want to eat chocolate all day and drink wine, it's probably not the best for

00:47:55.380 my health.

00:47:55.800 So we like to talk about the notion of the Aristotelian rule, and that's where you treat

00:48:02.480 others as their best self would want us to treat them.

00:48:05.820 And it can help give us important guidance.

00:48:08.240 So James knows I like to be athletic.

00:48:10.820 I like to take care of my health.

00:48:13.080 So while I love chocolate and I love wine, and he definitely gives me them regularly, but

00:48:18.280 I think if he saw I was eating boxes of chocolates and drinking a bottle of wine, you know, he might

00:48:23.180 dissuade that.

00:48:23.940 So how can couples really know one another, learn to know one another by discussing their

00:48:30.760 strengths, having those strengths conversations, and the work on a regular basis, the Aristotelian

00:48:36.740 rule of treating those, treating one another as their best self would want them to be treated.

00:48:42.040 So that's helping create opportunities where they can use their strengths and know their

00:48:47.740 strengths, not me telling James what to do based on my strengths, but noticing his strengths,

00:48:53.400 creating opportunities for him as individual and together as a couple.

00:48:58.300 And I think it's important to focus on the individual part too.

00:49:02.120 So one of the best things James did to me, for me, was give me the space to spend time

00:49:07.120 by myself.

00:49:07.860 So I used to live in New York City for years before we got married, and I had a business

00:49:12.260 meeting there.

00:49:13.220 And he said, why don't you stay a night?

00:49:15.060 And he goes, why don't you stay two nights?

00:49:17.120 That thing was up to three.

00:49:18.240 Then I thought he was up to something.

00:49:19.940 And I got to tell you, having quality time in my old stomping ground with my friends who

00:49:25.820 I spent years with, and being away from him and my son, having some downtime was really

00:49:31.400 nice.

00:49:32.000 And it actually made me really appreciate them even more.

00:49:36.140 And I think I ended up coming back sooner because I wanted to be with them.

00:49:39.800 So this notion that you mentioned earlier, time apart or creating that spark in a relationship

00:49:47.500 by doing your own thing and your partner helping you facilitate doing things you love, I think

00:49:56.160 can bring you closer together.

00:49:57.800 I think people often think they just need to physically always be together all the time.

00:50:03.060 Another way you can foster those strengths in your partner, your wife, your husband is expressing

00:50:08.660 gratitude for those things, which you have a whole chapter about gratitude.

00:50:12.500 Yeah, gratitude.

00:50:13.840 It's so important.

00:50:15.240 Research shows that not only is it important for individual well-being, but it's extremely

00:50:20.780 important for relational well-being.

00:50:23.560 And in fact, it may be the most important.

00:50:26.380 It's an emotion and it's also a strength.

00:50:29.000 And when it comes to relationships, we can understand why.

00:50:32.180 Because if our partner's not feeling grateful to us, then, you know, that doesn't bode well

00:50:39.460 for the relationship.

00:50:41.020 And in fact, research shows it's not enough, Brett, just to feel grateful.

00:50:45.120 We have to express our gratitude.

00:50:47.520 Our partners aren't mind readers.

00:50:49.440 How can we express gratitude to our partner in a way that is good for the relationship?

00:50:55.260 Well, there's a few things we can do.

00:50:56.920 We can just start with telling our partner, thank you, and focusing on his or her strengths.

00:51:04.160 So if James were to do something for me, or let's just say, to make it simple, he gave

00:51:08.380 me, I don't know, a hat because my head was cold, just to really simplify it.

00:51:14.000 And he gave me an orange hat because orange is my favorite color.

00:51:17.540 And I just said, oh, thank you so much for the hat.

00:51:20.040 I love orange and I love the hat.

00:51:22.040 I mean, that's fine.

00:51:22.880 It's better thanking him than not thanking him at all.

00:51:26.020 But how much better is it if I were to say, James, thank you so much for your kindness

00:51:31.580 and really noticing, you know, I'm always cold when I run outside.

00:51:36.800 You've listened to me, how, you know, the heat escapes my head and your thoughtfulness.

00:51:41.380 I really appreciate that.

00:51:42.880 And it's the same thoughtfulness I see in you that you express towards our son or towards

00:51:49.040 your students.

00:51:49.660 So it's focusing on James's strengths and his actions rather than just the benefit

00:51:56.040 to me.

00:51:56.980 And it's also important to be authentic.

00:51:58.980 I mean, you don't want to overdo it, of course.

00:52:01.620 But I think a lot of times, A, we don't express gratitude.

00:52:05.300 We just assume our partner knows.

00:52:07.400 And then when we do, we just, you know, bring it back to ourself.

00:52:10.700 And then our partner feels like, may end up feeling like it's a relationship, as we discuss,

00:52:15.820 of utility, one of Aristotle's, you know, friendships that he talked about that, well, James is just

00:52:22.320 doing things for me all the time.

00:52:24.300 And he may just feel like, you know, a commodity in the relationship rather than being appreciated

00:52:30.300 for who he is.

00:52:31.680 Did you want to say something, James, about gratitude?

00:52:33.820 No, I think that's, I think you said it really well.

00:52:35.860 And those elements of gratitude can, you know, it's, it's, gratitude is also a way of focusing

00:52:44.020 the attention.

00:52:44.980 So talking earlier about Aristotle's connection between habit and character, one of the ways

00:52:50.820 of establishing habit is by focusing our attention in certain ways.

00:52:54.900 And so having a practice of gratitude can really help us remember and remind ourselves and each

00:53:02.860 other about the, the good things that are happening in the relationship.

00:53:07.740 So as I was reading this whole book, there's a practice that my wife and I started a couple

00:53:13.080 years ago that basically does all, knocks all these things out that we've been talking

00:53:17.080 about all during this whole entire podcast.

00:53:19.040 It came from a marriage counselor, Marsha Berger, who has this idea of a marriage meeting where

00:53:24.120 you get together with your spouse once a week for 30 minutes and she breaks it up.

00:53:27.700 We do this, we do this, like try to do it once a week.

00:53:29.640 Sometimes we don't because things are busy, but like the first half, the first half,

00:53:32.840 the first part, you, you do appreciation.

00:53:34.180 So you express gratitude to your spouse for things that happened during that week.

00:53:37.660 And you do it in that way that you guys talked about.

00:53:39.380 It's like, well, you're so thoughtful because this, this, thank you, that.

00:53:42.320 Then you talk about the to-dos, which is like the utility part of any relationship.

00:53:46.160 Then you plan for good times as a family, as a couple individually.

00:53:50.460 So it's all about fostering that healthy passion.

00:53:53.180 And then you talk about problems and challenges and it literally takes 20 minutes, but it's been

00:53:59.580 a game changer.

00:54:00.200 It really does.

00:54:01.280 It's improved our, our, our marriage.

00:54:04.140 Yeah, no, that sounds, that sounds wonderful.

00:54:06.200 And having a kind of habit, a kind of practice of doing that is, is really great.

00:54:11.660 Let me point out one other thing about gratitude that I think is really important.

00:54:15.680 And Susie mentioned expressing gratitude and expressing it in that other kind of focused

00:54:20.280 way.

00:54:20.600 It's also important how we receive gratitude from the other person.

00:54:25.760 So we like to talk about it in terms of a gratitude dance.

00:54:29.160 So if you invite your partner to dance and the partner says, eh, no, thanks, there's

00:54:35.900 not going to be much of a dance, right?

00:54:37.480 Or if the partner says no, or if the partner just doesn't reply, there's not going to be

00:54:41.800 much of a dance.

00:54:42.460 So it's really important in a relationship for us to consider how we can respond well to

00:54:51.900 the gratitude that's expressed.

00:54:53.520 So if you're having your marriage meeting with your wife and she's expressing, you know,

00:54:58.800 how much she appreciates what you've been doing, you know, that week and you don't respond,

00:55:04.200 you don't acknowledge, it's, it's almost as though you're not even there.

00:55:09.020 Or that's not going to, it's not going to work very well, right?

00:55:12.520 And so my guess is that in that context, what really works in your relationship is to take

00:55:19.480 it in, right?

00:55:20.360 She's telling you these things because she believes them and she, she wants you to receive

00:55:24.560 them.

00:55:25.200 Sometimes we think about gratitude as, you know, well, I can't really acknowledge when

00:55:30.580 somebody gives me a compliment or somebody says something, it's really not good form to

00:55:34.840 take it in almost as though, you know, it's the last cookie on the plate.

00:55:38.300 And I really can't take it because then other people won't have the cookies.

00:55:41.520 No, in relationships, if I'm complimenting Susie for something, I don't want her to say,

00:55:47.020 well, I really can't accept that compliment because that would just be, you know, unseemly.

00:55:50.860 No, I want her to accept the compliment.

00:55:52.900 I want her to enjoy it.

00:55:54.600 I want her to luxuriate in the compliment.

00:55:57.680 Well, this has been a great conversation, guys.

00:55:59.600 Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:56:02.640 So, yeah, so they can go.

00:56:04.580 Susie mentioned earlier, the website.

00:56:06.460 It's buildhappytogether.com.

00:56:08.980 We put the word build in it because we feel like love is an action verb.

00:56:12.620 You got to work on it and build it.

00:56:14.420 So we have a lot of resources.

00:56:16.140 We have a link to the strengths test we mentioned, articles and so forth, and some videos.

00:56:22.840 And the book's available there, bookstores nationwide, Amazon.

00:56:27.080 There's also more information on the website.

00:56:29.300 One of the things that is important, we think, in terms of relationships is working at these skills.

00:56:35.780 As we said, we like to talk about the relationship gym and the importance of going and working out.

00:56:41.660 And, you know, if there's one thing that's better than going to the gym and working out, it's going to the gym and working out with others.

00:56:47.340 And so we hope that this work that we've been doing on relationships, you know, one of the key reasons why we wanted to do it was to work on our relationship.

00:56:56.360 And we also are excited about connecting with others who are interested in working on their relationships in similar ways and really creating a community of Aristotelian lovers who are wanting to support each other in this endeavor to become better people and to have better relationships.

00:57:15.300 So we have a pledge on there that people can take to work on practicing becoming an Aristotelian lover.

00:57:21.620 We also have a Facebook Happy Together book page if people are interested in following us there.

00:57:27.560 Well, fantastic.

00:57:28.140 Well, Susie James, thanks so much for your time.

00:57:29.520 It's been a pleasure.

00:57:30.440 Thank you so much, Brett.

00:57:31.500 We've really enjoyed talking with you today.

00:57:33.280 Brett, it's really been fun.

00:57:34.340 Thanks for your great questions.

00:57:35.580 I'm guessing you might have a signature strength of love of learning, too.

00:57:39.220 And it's been really fun to talk to you about these things.

00:57:41.600 Thank you.

00:57:41.980 Yes.

00:57:42.300 Yes, I do.

00:57:43.040 My guests today were James Pawelski and Susan Pileggi-Powelski.

00:57:47.180 They're the authors of the book, Happy Together.

00:57:49.140 It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.

00:57:51.480 You can find out more information about their work at their website, buildhappytogether.com.

00:57:55.560 Also, check out our show notes at aom.is slash happy together, where you can find links to resources, where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:58:08.960 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast.

00:58:11.560 Check out our website at artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives.

00:58:15.220 There's over 500 episodes there, as well as thousands of articles we've written over the years.

00:58:19.020 Got a lot of articles on relationships, so check out our relationship archives while you're there.

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00:58:41.840 And if you enjoyed this show, you got something out of it, I'd appreciate if you'd give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher.

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00:58:53.100 And until next time, this is Brett McKay, reminding you to not only listen to the AOM Podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

00:58:58.200 We'll see you next time.

The Art of Manliness - July 08, 2019

#523： How to Keep a Happy Relationship Happy

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