#523： How to Keep a Happy Relationship Happy
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Summary
James and Susan Pilegi Pawelski argue that we should not wait until problems arise in our relationship to work on strengthening it. Instead, they say, when times are good, we should think about how to keep that good and act to make it even better.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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Now, most marriage and relationship advice books focus on solving problems, but my guests
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say argue that we shouldn't wait until problems arise in our relationship to work on strengthening
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Instead, they say, when times are good, we should think about how to keep that good and
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Their names are James Pawelski and Susan Pilegi Pawelski, and their husband and wife,
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James has a background in philosophy, and they both have backgrounds in psychology.
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They combine insights from both fields to write the book, Happy Together, using the
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science of positive psychology to build love that lasts.
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We begin our conversation discussing how most relationship advice falls short, the biggest
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myths people have about relationships, and the contrast between Plato's and Aristotle's
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We then dig into the role of emotions play in a relationship, particularly passion, and
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what we can do to continue to cultivate and experience positive emotions in a marriage
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We then dig into how our character influences our relationships and how our relationships
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influence our character, and James and Susan share insights on how and why to focus on
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our strengths, help our partners develop their strengths, and even go on a strength state
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We end our conversation talking about the power of appreciation in relationships.
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After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash happy together.
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All right, James Pawelski, Susan Pawelski, welcome to the show.
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So you two are a married couple who have written a book about relationships, which can
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It's called Happy Together, Using the Science of Positive Psychology to Build Love That
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So now there's a lot of relationship books out there.
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Well, it focuses on what can go right in a relationship instead of what can go wrong.
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And it's based on the science of positive psychology, which studies what makes individuals
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There's so many books out there on relationships, but they tend to focus on fixing problems.
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We're focusing on what are those nuggets of goodness and how can we nurture them to improve
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As you all have looked at the material out there on relationships, what are some of the
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biggest myths that you've encountered that people have when it comes to developing a positive
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I feel that in our culture, we focus so much more on the wedding rather than the marriage.
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So much more on getting married or getting together rather than being together and how to stay
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There's pressure on men and women to find that perfect person, which we don't believe exists.
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And there's so much attention on that through dating apps and dating and so forth.
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But once you get together and eventually make a commitment or get married, we feel that then
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there's no focus really out there in culture and what really happens in a marriage.
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And after the storybook ends, what if we really had part two, part three of a fairy tale?
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And really saw this couple and their daily, you know, their days together.
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What are the best practices that can help couples be happier together?
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We just have this cultural myth of, you know, prince and princess charming.
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And there's one magical person that's going to forever complete you.
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And we feel that that does a great disservice to relationships.
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Relationships actually take work and it's healthy habits that are important.
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Happily ever after doesn't just happen magically.
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I think there are two kind of closely connected myths here.
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Now, if by soulmate, you know, soulmate can mean a lot of different things.
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And if by soulmate, we mean, you know, being deeply connected to somebody, we don't have any
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Obviously, we would advocate that, but sometimes the notion of soulmate takes on this kind of
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mythical, magical, you know, I'm only half a person until I meet my soulmates.
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And this meeting is nothing I can really prepare for.
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And then there I am, I'm, I'm in this relationship.
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And then, so the first part of the myth is kind of, you know, this is a fated magical thing.
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And then the second part of the myth is when it happens, as Susie said, it's just happily
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Everything is going to work out really beautifully.
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And again, we think that that's problematic in part because it takes away the emphasis
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So in other aspects of our lives, think about, you know, our professional lives.
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Like you don't just imagine that suddenly out of the blue, somebody is going to offer
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you a career without you having prepared for it.
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And we also don't imagine that we're going to be able to keep our jobs if we don't work
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hard at learning, you know, new skills and continuing to, to develop ourselves in that
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So why do we think about relationships in that way?
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There's a lot that we can do to prepare ourselves for finding a good partner.
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And then once we've found that good partner, there's a lot that we can do and need to do
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So this is where that intersection of psychology and philosophy happens.
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So that idea of that there's some person out there that completes you, that comes from
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Plato, talks about that in his dialogue, the symposium, right?
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I can comment on it, but I, he has a big smile on his face that you're talking philosophy.
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Yeah, so that idea of, you know, that the other half is a very funny story that Plato
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It puts in the character of a, of a playwright in one of his dialogues.
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And the story goes that back in the day, we were all round, actually.
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And if we were in a hurry, we'd kind of do cartwheels and really go fast to get where
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But we were so full of ourselves that we rebelled against the gods.
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And so Zeus realized he had to do something to stop this rebellion.
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And, but, but then what happened was that, um, this, this Zeus's supposed solution kind
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of backfired on him because people became so sad and lonely longing for their other half.
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And so we would do nothing but go around looking for our other half.
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And when we found our other half, we would embrace that person and forget to eat.
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We wouldn't offer sacrifices to Zeus and it just didn't work out very well.
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So that's part of that myth that, um, is, you know, obviously in, in, in, not just in
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our culture, that there is this other person that all we have to do is to find that person
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and then we'll, you know, automatically live happily ever after.
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Zeus made some adjustments, um, in his, uh, in his approach and found a way to, uh, get
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us to be able to eat again and to offer sacrifices to Zeus.
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But, Brett, he threatened that if human beings became rebellious again, he would cut us a
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And then we'd have to go hopping around on one foot and with, with just one arm.
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So we do need to be, uh, humble as we move forward in our lives.
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So let's talk about another philosopher that you go to that positive psychology looks to
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And Aristotle had a different idea about relationships and he wrote a lot about, uh,
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So what does an Aristotelian relationship marriage look like?
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Well, so to answer that question, I think we probably ought to tell you about our honeymoon,
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Is this the kind of program where we can talk about?
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We can talk about it as long as you don't bring out the slideshow.
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So, so we were talking about, um, how far back in the honeymoon should I talk about?
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So we were sitting on the beach, uh, talking about Aristotle, because I guess that's what
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So we were talking about, uh, Aristotle and the Nicodemician ethics, which is, you know,
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one of the most important books on, uh, the good life.
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And we were discussing Aristotelian friendship and Aristotle talks about how we love things
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We love, or love things that are pleasurable, things that are useful and things that are
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And he says, there's a friendship that corresponds to each level.
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So we were discussing this and he says how friendships of pleasure, you know, it might be two people
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going out on the town, partying together and nothing wrong with that.
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There's relationships of friendships of usefulness.
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Maybe they're two business partners investing money.
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And then finally he says there's friendships of goodness.
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And he says, that's the highest level of friendship.
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While there's nothing wrong with the first two, we can imagine that if, you know, there's
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no more pleasure left in the friendship, friendship often falls apart.
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And likewise, if the business opportunity, maybe, you know, you lose money, you're no longer
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However, he says on friendships of goodness, unless the, one of the person's character goes
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awry, they're much more sustainable because you really see the goodness in one another.
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So we're sitting on the beach talking about this, having those little, you know, drinks
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And I said to James, that's really cool what Aristotle says, but why does he limit this to
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What if we took it up a notch and we really applied it to our marriage?
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And hopefully we'll have some pleasure throughout our marriage, especially on our honeymoon.
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We both bring different skills to the relationship.
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But what if we ultimately do our best to focus on one another's character and the individual
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strengths we have and help each other to work on developing those strengths so that we can
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become better individuals and better as a couple?
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So we see, yeah, I can let the philosopher hop in if you want.
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So we talk about this notion of aristocrat love where, again, you're not ignoring, hopefully
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But if that's all you have in your marriage, that's likely not sustainable.
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So we talked to couples about focusing on really the goodness, the strengths in your
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And what can you do as individuals to develop those strengths and help facilitate those strengths
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And that's where we look to positive psychology, to the robust research in using science-based
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And a couple of points of clarification as well.
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So a lot of people come to relationships looking for what they can get out of them.
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But this is an approach where we go into relationships looking to what we can put into them and supporting
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Now, if I came into the relationship with Susie and I said, now, Susie, I'm all for you
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So I have a 13-point plan for you to become a better person and I'm going to help you through
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There's a big difference between coming into the relationship with a plan for the other
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person versus coming into the relationship with a plan to support or with the point of
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supporting that other person in their quest to become a better person.
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That doesn't mean we can't talk about things and I can provide feedback.
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I can ask Susie for feedback about how I can become a better person.
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But it's not me who is the catalyst for her growth.
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And it's my role to help support that as best I can.
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So you use an example from film, kind of highlighting this idea of Aristotelian relationship.
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So there's the platonic idea of relationship where there's a soulmate out there.
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There's Jerry Maguire, right, who says, you complete me to Renee Zellweger.
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And then there's the other movie, As Good As It Gets, with Helen Hunt and Jack Nicholson.
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And there's that famous scene where Jack Nicholson is like, you make me want to be a better
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But he captures what you're going for there with the Aristotelian relationship.
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And we know from watching the movie, he's not a perfect guy.
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As we said, we don't believe in the notion of perfection.
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He comes to her with all his flaws and so forth, but he sees the goodness in Helen Hunt's character.
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And it's that goodness he sees that really inspires him to want to become better.
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And we know from positive psychology research, things like inspiration.
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When you're inspired or in awe, there's physiological changes going on in your body.
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So your heart actually expands and you're moved to action.
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When you witness virtue, you want to do something good in response.
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So in this film, when he says, you make me want to be a better man, she's not making him,
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As James mentioned, you don't come with a plan to change your partner.
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The research shows it's interdependence that leads to fulfilling relationships.
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We don't want to be completely independent and nor do we want to be dependent, which often
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the sense of soulmates can lead to, but rather interdependent.
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So it's not focusing on your partner completing you, but rather complimenting you.
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Well, you know, you know, I know we've been kind of dogging on Plato a bit, but you know,
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that idea Plato in the Symposium talks about the whole point of it was that love towards
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a person can be what inspires you to the good, right?
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So you fall in love with the person, they inspire you, and that sort of somehow draws
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It's like you see someone who inspires you, makes you want to be a better person, and helps
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you become a more virtuous person in the process.
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We can, you know, just the other thing that comes to my mind is like an elementary school
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You can be inspired by that person, or even sometimes develop a crush on your teacher,
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And so there is this kind of a drawing, not a pushing, but a kind of a pulling and inviting
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And we can get really inspired, as Susie said, when we see someone, we see their character,
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and we say, wow, that's just a, that's a really, that's an example of goodness instantiated.
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And then that can really inspire us and be a great basis for love.
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And I imagine it helps when two people come together in a relationship where they have
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that idea of, that common idea of living the good life.
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Like there's something higher that they're both achieving.
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It's not just about like, okay, you're married, you know, getting married to you and help me
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my career because you're gonna be able to watch the kids and blah, blah, blah.
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It's like, it's something bigger than that, that allows you to experience that Aristotelian
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I think making it like a marital mission statement.
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And so like, really, what do we want our marriage to be about?
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And I think, especially during, you know, tough times, trying times, going back to that
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So if you're both working towards something, you know, becoming better and becoming a stronger
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team and doing good out there in the world, then I think it helps keep your focus on that
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and instead of getting stuck on the day-to-day sort of, you know, annoyances and so forth.
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So the first half of your book seems to focus on managing the emotions in a relationship
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He's not like a stoic where you got to like be like, eliminate all, you know, bad emotions,
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but he says that you need to manage them so they're useful and can help you lead to that
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In the first part of the book, you talk about passion.
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And when we typically think of romantic relationships, we think of passion, but you guys argue that
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there's good passion and there's bad passion or unhealthy passion.
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So again, getting back to pop culture, since we like to talk about pop culture, we feel that
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so much of the focus out there that people grow up with of passion is an unhealthy passion.
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You know, whether it's greeting cards or movies or music, it's this, you know, you're my one
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And while it may feel good in the moment, the research shows that this all-consuming urge
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or desire where you can't stand on your own two feet is actually a form of obsession, what
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And again, let me just say that in the beginning of a relationship, of course, you're likely to
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You know, romantic love, but if months, years into the relationship, you still can't focus on
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what's going on at work or you're no longer seeing your friends, your personality's completely
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changed, you might not be so much in love, but rather more obsessed with the other person.
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The good news is that there's also a healthy form of passion.
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And this is what Bob Valoran's research is called a harmonious passion.
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And this is the passion where you love your partner, you may do things together often,
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but also on your own, you're still maintaining your interests, the activities that you did
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You're still seeing your friends, your personality's the same.
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And I think a lot of people kind of confuse the two because if they feel, you know, years
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into the relationship, I'm no longer feeling that, you know, all-consuming sense.
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Maybe I should leave this relationship or marriage and find somebody else.
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And we've interviewed a lot of people, you know, when we were putting together this book
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who were sort of, I'd say, obsessed with obsession, that from one relationship to the next, as soon
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as those high arousal emotions sort of calmed down into more companion feelings of love, they
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And I think a lot of this is because we often have these myths, as we discussed in the beginning,
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So infatuation in the beginning of a relationship, it's healthy, it draws a couple closer together,
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It doesn't mean that there's no passion, no erotic passion.
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I think a lot of people like being in the relationship.
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And I think that's your point about the idea of a healthy passion is you do things together
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that you both enjoy and you enjoy being together, but also maintaining a distinct part of your life.
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Like that can actually help that sort of erotic passion, right?
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Because like that's all about, it's all about desiring and desiring requires like an otherness,
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So by having, you know, separate lives that you have your own thing can actually encourage
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that sort of passion that we like at the beginning of a relationship.
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I'm just going to say, yeah, they talk about new and novel activities.
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I mean, we know in general from research doing the same thing, whether it's in a relationship
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at work or elsewhere, you know, there's monotony, boredom, you fall into regret.
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So it's important to always be proactive, novel activities.
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How can you do things differently and keeping the spark alive?
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And to your point, Brett, keeping those activities and interests, it's likely what,
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And likewise, all too often we get together with our partner and we feel that we have
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And we may give up some of those activities and interests.
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And the research shows and experience shows that that's not healthy.
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We should continue being who we are and maintaining those hobbies outside of our relationship as
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well, as long as they're healthy ones, of course.
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If you think about what it takes to light a campfire, you know, you want to have kindling,
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you want to have some dry leaves, maybe some small sticks and light that on fire.
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But if that's all you have, then it's going to go out pretty quickly.
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And I think that's what a lot of people experience in their relationships.
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It's like this immediate spark and excitement, enthusiasm, and then it kind of peters out.
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So what you need to do in a campfire is you need to have some bigger sticks and some logs
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And so that when that initial energy is there with the kindling starting up, it's then also
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Now, when a log is caught on fire, it doesn't immediately go up in these, you know, flames
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And part of what then can happen, first of all, it's more sustainable.
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But then with that longer burn, that then allows for an opportunity for those flare-ups
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And so maybe some more leaves get piled on and then suddenly there's that spark again.
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So as Susie was saying, those new experiences can be a kind of rekindling from time to time.
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Not that we're expecting to live in that moment of conflagration all the time, that fiery
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But to have those on occasion within the context of this longer, sustainable relationship is
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So one way to encourage or promote that healthy passion, do novel things together.
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Any other things that people can do to develop that healthy passion?
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Sharing something, like a secret with your partner that you never told him or her.
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We think, unfortunately, when we get in a relationship and maybe together for a number of years, that
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And I think that does a lot of harm to the relationship.
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I mean, we don't know everything there is about ourselves.
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This is actually something my philosopher husband would say, right, James?
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And maybe it's a childhood memory or a fantasy you had or, you know, a line of work that you've
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But I think having these conversations about ideas and sharing parts of yourself with your
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partner regularly so that you're continuing to grow together and learn more about one another
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on a deeper level can keep the relationship from just being on the surface and getting into
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Another aspect you talk about with emotions is fostering positive emotions in a relationship.
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And as you said earlier, most relationship books are about mitigating the negative emotions,
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So it's like if your couple's fighting, here's some things not to fight about.
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If a couple's not doing this, here's what you do.
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So what can we do to foster positive emotions within a relationship?
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In the beginning of a relationship, it seems like we have so many positive emotions, right?
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And a lot of people, I think, just fall back thinking about, you know, how joyous they felt
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or excited or, you know, how much passion, which, you know, it's great to have a lot of
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But I think, first of all, is realizing that just like happily ever after doesn't just happen,
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In the beginning of a relationship, you're going to have a higher frequency.
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It's just, you know, it's just what happens and the intensity and the newness of the relationship.
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But that doesn't mean there's nothing you can do.
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The research shows we have to practice positive emotions and prioritize them in our lives,
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which basically means people, individuals, and couples who plan their day by organizing
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activities for themselves as well as, you know, with their partner will experience more positive
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emotions than those who just wait around for them to happen.
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What is it for you and for your partner together?
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Because it might be different, you know, to the individual than to the couple.
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What are those activities that really bring you joy, that make you feel good or make you
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So, is that something individually I do for myself?
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And then it's going to be, you know, positivity is contagious.
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But what are those activities together that we can do that both people enjoy?
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And I think it's also important to note that there are many, many positive emotions.
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Barbara Fredrickson research shows that there's like at least 10 that we frequent on, you know,
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But unfortunately, people just focus on the, I think, especially in America, the high arousal
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positive emotions, like those you have in the beginning of a relationship.
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But it's important to note that there's a whole range of emotions.
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And as the relationship develops, it's actually the calmer emotions that are associated with
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So, in the beginning, it might be, you know, the high arousal emotion of, you know, a sense
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of your buoyance, curiosity, which is great in interest.
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And then as the relationship matures, gratitude.
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You know, the bonding, the cuddle hormone, they talk about oxytocin when that's released.
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It actually brings the relationship to a more peaceful level and a more mature level.
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So, look at all of these positive emotions and figure out activities in your life that you
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can do together to bring more positive emotions into your relationship.
00:27:02.680
I think it was, you talk about research from John Gottman, where he says, like, it's, you
00:27:07.820
know, couples that fight or argue, like, that's not what predicts whether a marriage breaks
00:27:15.620
What predicts it, if there's no, like, positive interactions that they have after that or during
00:27:20.460
the day, so that there's something that counterbalances that.
00:27:23.180
And I think he has like a ratio, it's like five to one, so like five, you need to have
00:27:26.320
five positive encounters with a person in your relationship for every one negative one.
00:27:33.240
And so, we heard, we invited John and Julie Gottman to come and speak in our Master of
00:27:37.780
Applied Positive Psychology program a few years ago.
00:27:40.100
And they were talking about that, and they clarified, that's actually for couples, healthy
00:27:47.800
So, imagine having a fight, and during that fight, there's a five to one ratio of positive
00:27:55.280
They said that in regular experiences with those couples, it's more like 20 to one.
00:27:59.760
So, I think we all have some work to do to make sure that those ratios are maintained.
00:28:04.800
And also, with their work and with other Shelly Gable's work, there was always so much focus
00:28:10.560
in the past, before these researchers showing the fixing problems, as we mentioned, which
00:28:17.080
But the research shows it's more important to celebrate the good times and focus on what's
00:28:23.600
And we think a lot of couples, you know, miss those opportunities.
00:28:27.640
You know, good things happen to us at a much greater frequency.
00:28:31.060
But unfortunately, it's, you know, that toothache or, you know, that cut on your leg that you're
00:28:36.140
You're not noticing those days that you're enjoying great health or the sun shining or
00:28:42.660
And unfortunately, we often take those things for granted.
00:28:46.200
And sadly, a lot more couples fall apart and, you know, break up or get divorced, it seems,
00:28:53.300
because of feeling not being appreciated and not being acknowledged.
00:28:58.680
We're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.
00:29:03.740
So yeah, we have a tendency to focus on the negative and ignore the good.
00:29:07.360
And so because of that, you can be in a relationship where you think everything's actually might
00:29:13.260
But because you're focusing on the negative, you think, oh, my marriage is terrible.
00:29:16.500
But one way to counteract that is savoring, which is, I mean, we think of savoring eating
00:29:21.740
But what does that savoring look like in a relationship?
00:29:25.100
So Susie mentioned that early on in a relationship, it seems like all these positive emotions are just
00:29:30.840
And we think, oh, the rest of life is going to be exactly this way.
00:29:34.020
And, you know, you kind of have to get back to work and things happen and the relationship
00:29:40.620
matures and it's not quite that initial kindling conflagration that we had at the beginning.
00:29:45.820
And so that's one reason why it's important to cultivate positive emotions by doing things,
00:29:53.000
It's also important to focus on remembering the things that have gone well.
00:29:59.980
And so reliving old times can be a great way of reconnecting and savoring.
00:30:05.700
We all have these amazing memories that we're carrying around with us all the time.
00:30:13.180
And so we may be having a bad day like, oh, this is terrible.
00:30:17.520
But, man, there's a lot just waiting to be discovered or rediscovered in those memories.
00:30:23.200
Also, savoring can be about the present, just being present in the moment and soaking up
00:30:31.360
Again, we tend to, in our relational lives, in our work lives, just our lives in general,
00:30:36.220
we tend to say, oh, well, you know, I can go into work and talk with my colleagues about
00:30:42.680
what a miserable weekend I had or how awful the traffic was getting into work and make these
00:30:50.000
But what about spending some time talking with them about things that are really going well
00:30:58.180
So having that, again, having that kind of a balance, being open when things are,
00:31:03.360
you know, when there's a moment of connection, don't hurry through it.
00:31:06.280
Be there and allow it to unfold and be open to it.
00:31:10.740
And then about the future, it's possible to have anticipatory savoring.
00:31:16.180
So my wife Susie and I are right now, we're planning, preparing for a trip to Australia
00:31:22.680
And so thinking about what we're likely to encounter there, what people will meet, what
00:31:27.800
experiences we might have, that can be a source of joy as we anticipate what might happen.
00:31:33.620
Now, it's important to distinguish between expectation and anticipatory savoring.
00:31:38.520
So if I say, okay, Susie, here is what our first day in Australia is going to look like.
00:31:43.160
We're going to go to, you know, a place where we can see the kangaroos, we're going to take
00:31:47.340
our son to a soccer match, and we have it all planned out.
00:31:55.060
It doesn't necessarily happen as we, you know, as we expect.
00:31:59.440
And so if I'm really committed to it having to happen that way for me to be happy, that
00:32:04.960
But if I anticipate, we plan, and then whatever happens that day, if it turns out to be such
00:32:10.200
a rainy day that the kangaroos are undercover, well, there are other things that we can do
00:32:15.520
And that allows us to be flexible, even while anticipating good things in the future.
00:32:20.620
So we've talked about emotions, developing healthy passion and encouraging more positive
00:32:26.860
Let's talk about the other part of an Aristotelian relationship, which is character.
00:32:31.140
So positive psychology talks a lot about character.
00:32:35.920
How does, in the world of positive psychology, how do they define character?
00:32:40.860
So in brief, positive psychology, I'm going to give you a very brief summary of the research.
00:32:46.860
So in brief, positive psychologists looked across cultures and time, and they found that
00:32:54.240
So think that everybody has in different dimensions, things like love, leadership, gratitude, zest.
00:33:03.380
So there's 24 of these strengths, and we all have them, is the good news.
00:33:09.460
And these strengths, along with our backgrounds, our personalities, our upbringing, makes us unique
00:33:16.160
And people can find out what their strengths are.
00:33:19.140
Their top five strengths are called your signature strengths.
00:33:21.640
So, Brett, this is something that just naturally makes you, you.
00:33:25.080
Like, maybe you're just naturally creative and a leader.
00:33:30.980
But it's those inherent qualities that we all have.
00:33:34.060
And most people, when they take the strengths test, you know, they agree with it.
00:33:37.280
They're like, yeah, that's just who I am, right?
00:33:40.060
So listeners can actually find out their top strengths if they go to our website at buildhappytogether.com.
00:33:50.180
So, okay, you know what your top strengths are.
00:33:53.980
So the research shows that by practicing your strengths on a daily basis, you know, in your
00:33:59.040
relationship, in your leisure activities, at work, is associated with greater individual
00:34:05.880
And when it comes to a relationship, using your strengths together as a team and help facilitating
00:34:12.120
strength use in your partner leads to a greater relational satisfaction and better sexual
00:34:19.040
So why not help your partner facilitate his or her strengths?
00:34:23.060
The problem is, it seems in the beginning in a relationship, often it's those strengths
00:34:35.220
Okay, so anybody who knows my husband or anybody who really knows him, he really, really loves
00:34:42.100
Like Brett, I love to learn, but nowhere near to the level that James does.
00:34:48.300
He was one person who had a lot more books than I did in my apartment.
00:34:54.720
And I used to, you know, finger through the books and look at them.
00:34:57.420
And years later into our relationship, I'm like, really, you're buying another book?
00:35:02.660
Like how many more books do we need in our house?
00:35:07.300
And then I would start getting annoyed thinking he's like trying to irritate me by coming home
00:35:13.240
And I think it's interesting because what initially intrigued us often sometimes annoys us because
00:35:19.920
we're not looking at the relationship through a length of strengths.
00:35:24.660
We're thinking maybe our partner is intentionally trying to annoy us.
00:35:28.320
Instead, remembering, wait a minute, I fell in love with this guy partially because of who he is
00:35:37.400
So how can we look back and say, oh, you know, my partner, it's his love of learning that is
00:35:45.360
That's who he is and accept him rather than change him.
00:35:49.680
And if I can piggyback on that, that's great, Susie.
00:35:53.280
The going back to Aristotle and of course have to bring Aristotle in here.
00:35:57.680
It's been a while since we've said much about him.
00:36:00.120
So what he said is that character comes from habits.
00:36:05.760
And so what we want to do in our lives is not just make the right choice in a particular
00:36:10.520
situation, but be the kind of person who habitually makes the right choice.
00:36:16.320
So it's not just, oh, I found a wallet with a hundred dollars in it.
00:36:25.460
But we're the kind of person who you find a wallet with a hundred dollars and it's not
00:36:29.740
You're immediately looking for who this person belongs, who the money belongs to.
00:36:36.080
So thinking about character, thinking about these character strengths as habits in our
00:36:42.120
lives and how can we be aware of what habits we have that are helpful, that are conducive
00:36:49.260
to good relationships and what habits that have snuck into our lives that really aren't.
00:36:54.740
And what can we do to disrupt those unhelpful habits and to cultivate and support the good
00:37:01.760
And so these character strengths are, it's a, it's a great list, a great classification
00:37:08.400
of a lot of really good kinds of habits that we can develop and have in our lives and in
00:37:16.320
Now, as Susie said, there, when, when we're in the context of a relationship, sometimes we
00:37:21.320
can overuse these strengths or underuse these strengths.
00:37:24.660
And so it's a matter of, you know, as Aristotle says, it's easy to become angry, but it's
00:37:30.520
hard to become angry in the right occasion, to the right degree, with the right person
00:37:36.520
So we need to be careful about, as we get more experienced about knowing, recognizing what
00:37:42.740
our signature strengths are, how we can use them in the context of the relationship in
00:37:48.020
a way that will be optimally effective and helpful.
00:37:52.840
So, I mean, I can see how understanding your strengths and your partner's strengths, I
00:37:57.440
mean, intuitively would be useful in a relationship, but like, what does that, like, can you guys
00:38:01.020
give us an example of that playing out in a relationship?
00:38:04.940
So we first suggest to couples to take a strengths test, or if they don't, they could just, you
00:38:09.280
know, intuitively either know, or, well, I shouldn't say intuitively know, ask their
00:38:16.020
So even if James didn't take a test, he'd say, well, I really love to learn.
00:38:19.240
And I might say, you know, I love being adventurous.
00:38:23.700
And then having the first part is having strengths conversations.
00:38:27.960
I think, again, in the beginning of relationship, we're so curious about one another.
00:38:35.720
Shortly afterwards, it seems like we fall into right.
00:38:38.240
We think we know all there is about our partner, but we don't.
00:38:41.280
So having something called a strengths conversation is where you specifically discuss each other's
00:38:47.460
strengths, and you go deeper than just saying, oh, I love to learn.
00:38:50.860
I might ask James, well, how did your love of learning really lead you to become a philosopher
00:38:59.760
What is it about the strength of yours that not only led you down a certain career path,
00:39:06.520
Maybe he doesn't want to do certain things because he feels like he's not learning.
00:39:17.300
Like, where do you get a sense of joy using that strength?
00:39:20.660
Might we go on a hiking trip and we can explore and, you know, be in nature more?
00:39:25.660
How could you use your sense of creativity more?
00:39:28.120
So it's having those conversations and having them all the time because our strengths aren't
00:39:33.620
set like it is like a blood type at certain points of your life.
00:39:36.900
I mean, there's nothing magical about the first five.
00:39:41.440
But maybe a strength that's a little lower might move higher up, you know, later on in
00:39:46.480
So there might be a certain time where you're going through an experience and maybe you
00:39:50.400
never really considered yourself a really brave person, but maybe you didn't really have
00:39:56.920
So you might be going through a challenge and, you know, suddenly it's something like bravery
00:40:02.120
I think it's important to have these discussions because we're multifaceted about the complexities
00:40:12.160
And then I was going to say also, so the strengths conversations is one thing, sitting down with
00:40:17.780
It's not like, okay, I had my strengths conversation.
00:40:20.220
I'm talking about these things instead of just talking about, you know, the superficial.
00:40:25.500
And then next, we would suggest that all couples go on a strength state.
00:40:30.480
And a strength state is where you choose one of your strengths and one of your partners
00:40:36.000
and together you create a date or an outing where you both have the opportunity to use
00:40:43.660
So one fun example of ours, for instance, since I'm talking about James's love of learning
00:40:48.140
and my zest, we got together and we were like, okay, what can we do with love of learning
00:40:53.500
So we decided to rent Segways and we did a historical tour of Philadelphia where we live.
00:41:07.920
I was listening to the historical part because I like to learn too, but not to the degree that
00:41:14.040
But Brett, I got to tell you, we had such a fun time.
00:41:18.460
James is smiling, but I don't want to speak for you.
00:41:20.400
So, you know, at the end of the day, we talked about it.
00:41:23.540
My sense of adventure was fulfilled and his sense of his love of learning was piqued.
00:41:30.540
There's thousands of, I forget how many combinations he said of strengths, right?
00:41:38.020
But maybe we could take, we both have a top strength of creativity.
00:41:43.520
Or imagine if we talked to couples, one who had kindness and one had humor.
00:41:51.100
And they went and they did something with a homeless shelter in the neighborhood.
00:41:58.200
And the research shows, as I mentioned previously, when you use your strengths, you have greater
00:42:04.620
And when couples do it together, they have a greater connection, physical as well as sexual
00:42:11.100
and emotional connection, because it's really showing that you get this other person and
00:42:16.860
you're helping him or her bring their best self to the table and, you know, their authentic
00:42:22.920
Not what you want them to be, but who they are, rather than dragging your partner, you know,
00:42:28.280
on a date to something that, you know, he or she's really not interested in.
00:42:37.640
And let's say that my love of learning, I was overusing that love of learning and spending
00:42:43.300
all of my time with my nose in books and Susie and my son, Liam, felt neglected because I
00:42:50.460
wasn't even noticing them because I was so eager to learn.
00:42:55.640
Well, one way in which strengths can work, it's not, we're not just advocating, well,
00:43:02.340
But I could actually use my strengths in a way to shore up my weaknesses, as Marty Seligman
00:43:09.940
suggests, or I can use my strengths in a way to help the relationship by, for example,
00:43:17.620
learning more about Susie or learning more about relationships.
00:43:22.960
And so the strength itself can become a vehicle for me developing other parts of myself that
00:43:30.540
are important in the context of a relationship.
00:43:33.420
So it's not bringing a book to our son, Liam's soccer championship, but maybe James delving
00:43:39.900
deeper into her soccer history, our son's a real lover of soccer and learning about the
00:43:46.740
So, so it's not, so, okay, that's a good point about weaknesses.
00:43:49.140
So we all have these strengths in various forms that some of them are stronger than others.
00:43:53.580
I think the typical approach when people say, I've got this weak spot, I got to devote all
00:43:59.360
So if like, you're not a thoughtful person, I think it's one of the social intelligence,
00:44:08.440
I'm going to be like, I'm going to do one thoughtful thing a day.
00:44:11.020
Like, cause that can be counterproductive, right?
00:44:14.520
Instead, you find like, you find a strength that you have that you can, that you can focus
00:44:18.160
on, lean into more that'll allow you to be thoughtful naturally.
00:44:23.400
So think of it in terms of, you know, baseball, we're just talking about a sports analogy.
00:44:27.120
Think about baseball and think about a pitcher.
00:44:29.300
Now, at least in the major leagues, perhaps the greatest weakness that a pitcher has tends
00:44:36.300
And so if a pitcher said, boy, I really got this weakness of batting, I need to practice
00:44:41.900
batting and they stopped practicing their pitching so that they could practice their
00:44:48.420
I mean, maybe they would become a marginally better batter.
00:44:51.680
They probably are not going to become a champion batter, but in the meantime, they're going to
00:44:56.420
lose the skill for which they're valued and for which they have a spot on the roster.
00:45:03.120
So that would be an example of, you know, in that context, you rely on, you know, you
00:45:07.540
want to be as good of a hitter as you reasonably can, but you rely on your teammates to help
00:45:11.560
pick up the hitting and you're focusing on the pitching.
00:45:15.140
Now, if it turns out that you say, well, you know, I'm just not a kind person, that's my
00:45:21.020
weakness, so I'm not going to work on kindness.
00:45:23.060
Well, no, we all need to be at least somewhat kind.
00:45:26.360
So there are, so again, this isn't an excuse for just being, you know, a terrible person and
00:45:31.420
saying, well, that's not my, that's not my strength.
00:45:34.060
But if a pitcher is so good at pitching, then that can overcome from a team perspective,
00:45:43.680
that can overcome the deficit that might arise when their batting average isn't that high.
00:45:50.140
And then, so that's one way of thinking about it.
00:45:52.220
But then, as I mentioned with love of learning, there are times when the strength itself can
00:45:57.940
also help you in your, so let's say kindness, right?
00:46:02.740
So let's say I'm just, I've been getting some feedback that I'm not as kind as I need to
00:46:07.360
Well, then how can I use my love of learning or a strength of love or a strength of gratitude,
00:46:14.880
whatever strengths that I have, how can I use that to find out more about this lesser
00:46:21.580
strength or this area of weakness that I have and work on that?
00:46:24.820
Because it's a lot more fun to use our strengths than it is to be like, okay, great.
00:46:32.060
And so another way you can use your strengths to shore up your weaknesses, say that love of
00:46:36.260
learning kindness example, say you're not typically kind or thoughtful, but you can like
00:46:42.700
So if you see your wife having a problem, you can do some research.
00:46:46.760
Hey, I want to, I'm going to research this problem for you.
00:46:49.860
So you're, you're using your love of learning to be thoughtful.
00:46:58.340
But yeah, you have to use like, he's also very kind, but you got it, but again, you
00:47:03.280
have to, like, as James said, you got to use that Aristotelian phronesis, right?
00:47:08.200
Like you could probably do like, do that all the time, but sometimes it might not be what
00:47:14.220
Susie's like, that's kind of annoying at this time.
00:47:16.020
I didn't want, I didn't want a portfolio, like a presentation of my problem.
00:47:22.580
So you got to, you got to use some practical wisdom.
00:47:24.960
I mean, I was taught the golden rule is all you need, you know, to be happy together,
00:47:31.620
And then after we got married and realized that wasn't the case.
00:47:34.780
So then we talk about the notion of, you know, while the golden rule, it's good intentions,
00:47:42.960
And so then we think, well, what about the platinum rule?
00:47:45.320
That's when you treat others the way they want to be treated.
00:47:50.180
But if I just want to eat chocolate all day and drink wine, it's probably not the best for
00:47:55.800
So we like to talk about the notion of the Aristotelian rule, and that's where you treat
00:48:02.480
others as their best self would want us to treat them.
00:48:13.080
So while I love chocolate and I love wine, and he definitely gives me them regularly, but
00:48:18.280
I think if he saw I was eating boxes of chocolates and drinking a bottle of wine, you know, he might
00:48:23.940
So how can couples really know one another, learn to know one another by discussing their
00:48:30.760
strengths, having those strengths conversations, and the work on a regular basis, the Aristotelian
00:48:36.740
rule of treating those, treating one another as their best self would want them to be treated.
00:48:42.040
So that's helping create opportunities where they can use their strengths and know their
00:48:47.740
strengths, not me telling James what to do based on my strengths, but noticing his strengths,
00:48:53.400
creating opportunities for him as individual and together as a couple.
00:48:58.300
And I think it's important to focus on the individual part too.
00:49:02.120
So one of the best things James did to me, for me, was give me the space to spend time
00:49:07.860
So I used to live in New York City for years before we got married, and I had a business
00:49:19.940
And I got to tell you, having quality time in my old stomping ground with my friends who
00:49:25.820
I spent years with, and being away from him and my son, having some downtime was really
00:49:32.000
And it actually made me really appreciate them even more.
00:49:36.140
And I think I ended up coming back sooner because I wanted to be with them.
00:49:39.800
So this notion that you mentioned earlier, time apart or creating that spark in a relationship
00:49:47.500
by doing your own thing and your partner helping you facilitate doing things you love, I think
00:49:57.800
I think people often think they just need to physically always be together all the time.
00:50:03.060
Another way you can foster those strengths in your partner, your wife, your husband is expressing
00:50:08.660
gratitude for those things, which you have a whole chapter about gratitude.
00:50:15.240
Research shows that not only is it important for individual well-being, but it's extremely
00:50:29.000
And when it comes to relationships, we can understand why.
00:50:32.180
Because if our partner's not feeling grateful to us, then, you know, that doesn't bode well
00:50:41.020
And in fact, research shows it's not enough, Brett, just to feel grateful.
00:50:49.440
How can we express gratitude to our partner in a way that is good for the relationship?
00:50:56.920
We can just start with telling our partner, thank you, and focusing on his or her strengths.
00:51:04.160
So if James were to do something for me, or let's just say, to make it simple, he gave
00:51:08.380
me, I don't know, a hat because my head was cold, just to really simplify it.
00:51:14.000
And he gave me an orange hat because orange is my favorite color.
00:51:17.540
And I just said, oh, thank you so much for the hat.
00:51:22.880
It's better thanking him than not thanking him at all.
00:51:26.020
But how much better is it if I were to say, James, thank you so much for your kindness
00:51:31.580
and really noticing, you know, I'm always cold when I run outside.
00:51:36.800
You've listened to me, how, you know, the heat escapes my head and your thoughtfulness.
00:51:42.880
And it's the same thoughtfulness I see in you that you express towards our son or towards
00:51:49.660
So it's focusing on James's strengths and his actions rather than just the benefit
00:51:58.980
I mean, you don't want to overdo it, of course.
00:52:01.620
But I think a lot of times, A, we don't express gratitude.
00:52:07.400
And then when we do, we just, you know, bring it back to ourself.
00:52:10.700
And then our partner feels like, may end up feeling like it's a relationship, as we discuss,
00:52:15.820
of utility, one of Aristotle's, you know, friendships that he talked about that, well, James is just
00:52:24.300
And he may just feel like, you know, a commodity in the relationship rather than being appreciated
00:52:31.680
Did you want to say something, James, about gratitude?
00:52:33.820
No, I think that's, I think you said it really well.
00:52:35.860
And those elements of gratitude can, you know, it's, it's, gratitude is also a way of focusing
00:52:44.980
So talking earlier about Aristotle's connection between habit and character, one of the ways
00:52:50.820
of establishing habit is by focusing our attention in certain ways.
00:52:54.900
And so having a practice of gratitude can really help us remember and remind ourselves and each
00:53:02.860
other about the, the good things that are happening in the relationship.
00:53:07.740
So as I was reading this whole book, there's a practice that my wife and I started a couple
00:53:13.080
years ago that basically does all, knocks all these things out that we've been talking
00:53:19.040
It came from a marriage counselor, Marsha Berger, who has this idea of a marriage meeting where
00:53:24.120
you get together with your spouse once a week for 30 minutes and she breaks it up.
00:53:27.700
We do this, we do this, like try to do it once a week.
00:53:29.640
Sometimes we don't because things are busy, but like the first half, the first half,
00:53:34.180
So you express gratitude to your spouse for things that happened during that week.
00:53:37.660
And you do it in that way that you guys talked about.
00:53:39.380
It's like, well, you're so thoughtful because this, this, thank you, that.
00:53:42.320
Then you talk about the to-dos, which is like the utility part of any relationship.
00:53:46.160
Then you plan for good times as a family, as a couple individually.
00:53:50.460
So it's all about fostering that healthy passion.
00:53:53.180
And then you talk about problems and challenges and it literally takes 20 minutes, but it's been
00:54:06.200
And having a kind of habit, a kind of practice of doing that is, is really great.
00:54:11.660
Let me point out one other thing about gratitude that I think is really important.
00:54:15.680
And Susie mentioned expressing gratitude and expressing it in that other kind of focused
00:54:20.600
It's also important how we receive gratitude from the other person.
00:54:25.760
So we like to talk about it in terms of a gratitude dance.
00:54:29.160
So if you invite your partner to dance and the partner says, eh, no, thanks, there's
00:54:37.480
Or if the partner says no, or if the partner just doesn't reply, there's not going to be
00:54:42.460
So it's really important in a relationship for us to consider how we can respond well to
00:54:53.520
So if you're having your marriage meeting with your wife and she's expressing, you know,
00:54:58.800
how much she appreciates what you've been doing, you know, that week and you don't respond,
00:55:04.200
you don't acknowledge, it's, it's almost as though you're not even there.
00:55:09.020
Or that's not going to, it's not going to work very well, right?
00:55:12.520
And so my guess is that in that context, what really works in your relationship is to take
00:55:20.360
She's telling you these things because she believes them and she, she wants you to receive
00:55:25.200
Sometimes we think about gratitude as, you know, well, I can't really acknowledge when
00:55:30.580
somebody gives me a compliment or somebody says something, it's really not good form to
00:55:34.840
take it in almost as though, you know, it's the last cookie on the plate.
00:55:38.300
And I really can't take it because then other people won't have the cookies.
00:55:41.520
No, in relationships, if I'm complimenting Susie for something, I don't want her to say,
00:55:47.020
well, I really can't accept that compliment because that would just be, you know, unseemly.
00:55:57.680
Well, this has been a great conversation, guys.
00:55:59.600
Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?
00:56:08.980
We put the word build in it because we feel like love is an action verb.
00:56:16.140
We have a link to the strengths test we mentioned, articles and so forth, and some videos.
00:56:22.840
And the book's available there, bookstores nationwide, Amazon.
00:56:29.300
One of the things that is important, we think, in terms of relationships is working at these skills.
00:56:35.780
As we said, we like to talk about the relationship gym and the importance of going and working out.
00:56:41.660
And, you know, if there's one thing that's better than going to the gym and working out, it's going to the gym and working out with others.
00:56:47.340
And so we hope that this work that we've been doing on relationships, you know, one of the key reasons why we wanted to do it was to work on our relationship.
00:56:56.360
And we also are excited about connecting with others who are interested in working on their relationships in similar ways and really creating a community of Aristotelian lovers who are wanting to support each other in this endeavor to become better people and to have better relationships.
00:57:15.300
So we have a pledge on there that people can take to work on practicing becoming an Aristotelian lover.
00:57:21.620
We also have a Facebook Happy Together book page if people are interested in following us there.
00:57:28.140
Well, Susie James, thanks so much for your time.
00:57:35.580
I'm guessing you might have a signature strength of love of learning, too.
00:57:39.220
And it's been really fun to talk to you about these things.
00:57:43.040
My guests today were James Pawelski and Susan Pileggi-Powelski.
00:57:47.180
They're the authors of the book, Happy Together.
00:57:49.140
It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.
00:57:51.480
You can find out more information about their work at their website, buildhappytogether.com.
00:57:55.560
Also, check out our show notes at aom.is slash happy together, where you can find links to resources, where you can delve deeper into this topic.
00:58:08.960
Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast.
00:58:11.560
Check out our website at artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives.
00:58:15.220
There's over 500 episodes there, as well as thousands of articles we've written over the years.
00:58:19.020
Got a lot of articles on relationships, so check out our relationship archives while you're there.
00:58:22.420
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00:58:28.160
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00:58:34.980
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00:58:38.080
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00:58:41.840
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00:58:48.000
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00:58:51.520
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00:58:53.100
And until next time, this is Brett McKay, reminding you to not only listen to the AOM Podcast, but put what you've heard into action.