The Art of Manliness - #531： How to Best Harness Your Willpower

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. Now, many of

00:00:11.080 our goals in life from losing weight to saving more money require willpower. But what is willpower

00:00:15.540 anyway? Why does it feel like it often fails us? And what can we do to make better use of it? My

00:00:19.960 guest today explores the answers to these questions in her book, The Willpower Instinct,

00:00:23.600 how self-control works, why it matters and what you can do to get more of it. Her name is Kelly

00:00:27.480 McGonigal, and she's a psychology professor at Stanford University. We begin our discussion

00:00:31.380 discussing what exactly willpower is, how it can be described as an instinct, and what goes on in

00:00:36.160 our brains when we utilize willpower. We also unpack the idea that there are really three

00:00:39.900 different types of willpower. I won't power, I will power, and I want power, and how these powers

00:00:44.680 can be increased. We then spend the rest of our discussion digging into the limitations of

00:00:48.640 willpower so we can avoid putting ourselves in situations where it's likely to fail us. We talk

00:00:52.960 about how shame, the people who surround us, and even ironically, making progress with our goals

00:00:57.660 can all lead to loosening our willpower. We enter a conversation with Kelly's best tips for getting

00:01:01.960 the most out of our willpower. After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash,

00:01:06.500 you know it, willpower. Kelly joins me now via clearcast.io.

00:01:10.060 All right, Kelly McGonigal, welcome to the show.

00:01:20.820 Thank you for having me.

00:01:21.920 So you are a psychologist that has spent her career, you've spent your career researching,

00:01:27.800 writing about, teaching, I'd say about how to help human beings live a flourishing life.

00:01:33.840 And one thing that's undergirded all that is this idea of willpower. In fact, you teach a class

00:01:39.080 at Stanford about willpower and you wrote a book called The Willpower Instinct. That's what we're

00:01:42.620 going to talk about today. Before we get into what willpower is, because I think a lot of people have

00:01:46.760 a vague idea of what it is. They know it's the thing that helps them do good habits and stop bad

00:01:51.260 habits. But how did you get started researching willpower? Was it one of those research is me

00:01:55.780 search type things? Oh, yes, that's actually true. But the reason that I decided to teach a class

00:02:01.340 about it originally is, you know, as you said, I'm dedicated to sharing science that psychologists

00:02:07.180 maybe know about, but the general public doesn't. Science specifically that will help people deal

00:02:11.560 with challenges or reach their goals. And, you know, I remember maybe about 15 years ago,

00:02:16.160 there was a survey that the American Psychological Association did that asked people, what's the

00:02:21.200 number one reason you aren't reaching your goals? And not having willpower was one of the most common

00:02:26.960 responses. And I got really interested in that because there was a burgeoning field of research.

00:02:32.760 It was actually on what researchers were calling willpower. And it seemed to be offering all of

00:02:38.260 these fascinating insights about how it works. And more importantly, what we can do to get more of

00:02:43.380 it so that we can reach our goals. And I thought this is science that the public needs to know. So

00:02:48.440 that's what kickstarted the class that I taught at Stanford. And it's been a great process over the

00:02:54.800 last 15 years of sort of working with real human beings to figure out what is the science that does

00:03:01.160 help people. And how can we apply that science to our own lives?

00:03:05.120 Yeah, I think it's interesting, just even the antidotes you gave in the book. And this, again,

00:03:08.220 this was 10 years ago. What's interesting about willpower is that can go into different directions.

00:03:12.320 You give antidotes to people who use the things you talked about in your class to get their eating

00:03:17.020 in order, their finances. It can go in a whole bunch of different directions.

00:03:21.480 It can. Actually, I would love to talk about this for a second because, you know, when I first taught

00:03:25.840 the class and when I wrote the book, people were very reluctant to be, I think, honest about their

00:03:31.560 biggest willpower challenges. And so, you know, I allowed myself to also talk about food mostly,

00:03:37.660 money, finances, things that we commonly think of as being big willpower challenges.

00:03:42.540 But I actually got an email this week from one of my students in this course and other courses at

00:03:48.620 Stanford. And she was talking about using the ideas from that class to help her get through

00:03:53.480 a medical procedure that without which she would not have been able to get a diagnosis that is now

00:04:00.280 leading to serious treatment and having to deal with that panic of wanting to, you know, run out

00:04:04.220 of the room because this is a terrifying experience. But I know I need to do this because it matters.

00:04:10.640 This is a moment that matters. And I'm going to choose knowledge. I'm going to choose my health.

00:04:15.620 I'm going to choose courage. And now that this book has been out there for a little while and I've

00:04:19.460 been talking to more people, I am so heartened by the fact that actually people feel more willing

00:04:24.820 to talk about willpower challenges that aren't the obvious things like, oh, it's so hard to resist

00:04:30.600 cheese, which is, you know, the default everyone goes to and talk about things that sometimes are a

00:04:36.700 real source of suffering in people's lives. It's that gap between who you want to be and what you find

00:04:42.940 yourself doing and how you spend your time and who you are. And that's what I'm really interested in.

00:04:48.000 It's really about, you know, how can you make choices? And this is how I define willpower.

00:04:54.500 How can you make choices and take actions that are consistent with your highest values

00:04:58.680 and your strongest goals, even when it's difficult and even when some part of you is exhausted or

00:05:07.340 terrified or distracted? And that can include a lot of things beyond what we typically think of as

00:05:12.520 willpower challenges.

00:05:13.320 Yeah. It could be your, like the, the, the health example is one, like having to deal with a health

00:05:18.580 scare, but like a marital problem is another one. Something, if you're a parent, something's wrong,

00:05:23.820 you know, the kid's got a big issue with school or they're doing drugs. Like how do you manage that?

00:05:29.260 And you're often going to be relying on willpower to do that.

00:05:32.700 Yes. In fact, actually I think caregiving and being a parent, parents are constantly using willpower,

00:05:37.500 but because they so, they're so strongly committed to the goal and the value, they love their kids.

00:05:44.160 It feels more natural. And sometimes we don't even give ourselves credit. People are not given

00:05:49.140 credit for the fact that they're doing these amazing things that take courage, take energy,

00:05:53.760 take strength, take self-control. But because it's in service of a role that we sort of expect people

00:05:59.560 to be committed to, or that feel very important to us, we don't recognize that that is willpower.

00:06:04.040 And part of what I try to help people do is figure out how to apply that same sort of natural instinct

00:06:10.460 to do what matters most and to find the energy and the reserves to do it and apply it to your own

00:06:15.100 goals as well. Well, so it's interesting. You called willpower an instinct and the book is called

00:06:19.740 willpower instinct. And that word instinct, we typically associate with, in humans at least,

00:06:25.540 like those impulsive desires that we have that are like animal-like, right? The instinct for sex or for

00:06:30.720 food. We don't really think of willpower as an instinct. That's like, well, that's the prefrontal

00:06:35.640 cortex. That's like human being stuff. You have to work for that.

00:06:38.480 Well, yeah. But let's just be clear, the two instincts that you mentioned, food and sex,

00:06:44.280 these are things that we need to survive. That's why we have those impulses. And we have a natural human

00:06:51.340 capacity to do the things that keep us alive and that keep our tribe alive. And it turns out that

00:06:56.960 willpower or self-control is one of those things too. And I use the word instinct because instinct

00:07:03.060 means a natural capacity that is not necessarily always triggered, but it's part of what it means

00:07:09.900 to be human. Humans are born with this capacity. We have a biological and develop a psychological capacity

00:07:16.560 to think about the consequences of our actions and to remember our values and goals and to plan

00:07:23.580 and to maybe, um, to suppress or repress other impulses that are getting in the way of our

00:07:30.240 bigger goals. And again, that's part of what it means to be human. It's, it's one of the core features

00:07:34.180 of the human mind and even the sort of the social nature of our species. You know, we have to learn

00:07:39.840 how to tolerate conflict as part of what helps humans survive as we became a cooperative species.

00:07:45.540 And one way to think about willpower is willpower is about applying that same instinct and capacity

00:07:51.140 to negotiate a conflict when the conflict is in yourself. And part of you wants to do one thing

00:07:56.480 like give into immediate gratification. And another part of you is thinking about maybe your long-term

00:08:01.340 interests or maybe even a bigger than a bigger than self interest. So maybe, you know, thinking about

00:08:06.620 your family or thinking about some cause that you care about and how do you negotiate that conflict

00:08:12.020 so that you don't feel like you're totally neglecting either part of yourself, but that you're

00:08:17.820 marshalling your most important energy and resources toward the thing that, you know, at the end of the

00:08:23.220 day, you're going to be most glad you chose. So those instincts for like, you know, those base

00:08:28.160 instincts for food and sex and whatever, those, they work in tandem, it sounds like with the willpower

00:08:33.960 instinct. Yeah. And you wouldn't want one instinct to completely override the other. Sometimes hunger is

00:08:39.000 the most important instinct and it's not self-control to deny hunger. If the consequence is you starve

00:08:45.180 yourself. And I think that this is, you know, sometimes we get so hung up on these ideas about,

00:08:50.480 um, about aspects of ourself that we judge, or we think we need to get rid of in order to be

00:08:56.960 our best self or to live a good life. And I actually, I'm fascinated by all of the aspects of human

00:09:02.700 nature, that even the things that we sometimes judge like aggression or hostility or the desire to

00:09:09.100 give into immediate gratification, they're all survival strategies. And we get into trouble when we don't

00:09:14.620 have a big repertoire of survival strategies, when one kind of overrides all of our other human

00:09:20.100 impulses. So I think that's, that's one of the great things about taking a scientific lens on this

00:09:25.040 is that it can also free us up a little bit to better understand what it means to be human

00:09:29.500 so that we understand our willpower challenges. They don't reveal what sort of fundamentally broken

00:09:35.360 or weak about you. They reveal that you're human and, um, we can study ourselves and better

00:09:40.700 understand ourselves so that we can, we can use all of our aspects of being human to reach our goals.

00:09:47.360 So what goes on in our brain when we exercise our willpower? Cause we've had guests on the podcast

00:09:51.380 talking about, you know, dopamine, for example, that's the sort of the reward seeking neurotransmitter

00:09:56.540 that that's what causes us that what, that's what makes drugs or surfing the web or, you know,

00:10:02.100 eating that, you know, whatever that delicious thing is makes it desirable. Are there similar

00:10:06.720 things going on in our brain that allow us to exercise our willpower?

00:10:10.560 You know, this is a very complex answer. And I need to actually describe different types of

00:10:16.760 willpower probably to, to go into what's happening in the brain, because I think most of us, our initial

00:10:22.780 idea of what willpower is, is it's what I would call won't power. That is some part of you wants to

00:10:29.540 buy something or drink something or say something that, that you might regret later. And so some other

00:10:35.440 part of you has to override that impulse. And that's sort of what you're talking about and

00:10:39.180 that you can see that in the brain actually. So if there's somebody who has a goal to not smoke and

00:10:45.120 they see someone else smoking and they feel that craving, the brain will start to initiate this whole

00:10:50.200 motor pattern of trying to reach for a cigarette and create the strong desire for a cigarette and

00:10:55.360 even create in your brain stress and anxiety that it will maintain until you give in to the temptation.

00:11:00.600 And in order to have won't power in that moment, you do need often it's areas of the prefrontal

00:11:05.800 cortex, the ventromedial prefrontal cortex, which will remind you of your longer term goals, like

00:11:11.000 living a healthy life and, you know, not getting lung cancer, being a good role model to others,

00:11:15.320 whatever those values are. And the part of the brain, often the left side of the prefrontal cortex

00:11:21.200 that starts to suppress the desire to reach for a cigarette or starts to calm down the anxiety in

00:11:26.600 your brain. So that's one side of willpower. And what you see is this like this complex negotiation

00:11:32.540 of different systems of the brain that have different goals, but won't power is just one

00:11:37.820 side of willpower. And the other two powers that make up willpower are willpower as in,

00:11:44.680 I will do this. I will do the thing that makes me scared. I will do the thing, even though I'm tired

00:11:51.880 and I want to stop, I will do the thing, even though I'm not sure if I'll succeed. And so part

00:11:56.460 of me wants to avoid it so that I don't make a fool of myself. I will do it. I will find the energy,

00:12:01.980 the courage, the determination. I'll make it a priority. And when that's happening in the brain,

00:12:07.760 it often looks a little bit different. So for example, you'll see more activation of the left

00:12:13.020 side of the brain, which will be sort of pushing you or motivating you toward action. You will see

00:12:18.200 increased levels of activation in the reward system that make you think if I do this, something

00:12:23.240 good will happen. You might see increased levels of dopamine that are actually driving you toward

00:12:28.440 positive action rather than driving you towards giving into your impulses. And it looks in the

00:12:33.080 brain like courage. It looks in the brain like hope. Sometimes people refer to it as the hope

00:12:37.500 circuitry of the brain. And that looks really different than when you're trying to suppress an

00:12:41.540 impulse that you don't want to give into. And one of the things that you see in both of those

00:12:46.160 types of brain patterns is the activation of what I call, I want power. And this is the thing that

00:12:52.440 really drives our ability to exert, I will power or I won't power. And that is, it's the power to

00:12:59.020 remember in moments of a conflict, what it is you really care about and what you really care about.

00:13:04.800 If you were in a contemplative mood and you were thinking about your priorities in life and who you

00:13:10.780 want to be. Because of course, you know, in moments when you're overcome, say, by a craving, you might

00:13:16.160 say, what I really want is to give into it. So we have to sort of take a different time perspective

00:13:19.720 here. And this turns out to be a strength as well. And it turns out to be a pattern of brain

00:13:24.180 activation. When you ask people to remember what their values are, what their deal breakers are, what

00:13:29.300 their long-term goals are, when people think about who they care about, which is often a great source

00:13:34.140 of willpower, wanting to support others or wanting to be a good role model for others can be a tremendous

00:13:39.620 source of willpower. You see this activation in parts of the brain that remind you of those values

00:13:44.980 and goals. And it gives you a kind of energy that, that then drives whether you need to slow down or

00:13:51.980 whether you need to step up and take action. And when you understand those as sort of the three

00:13:56.800 fundamental powers of willpower, you realize that you can't exactly say this is what willpower looks

00:14:02.320 like in the brain because willpower asks different things of us depending on whether we are trying

00:14:11.700 to be the sort of brave version of ourselves or the restrained version of ourselves.

00:14:17.400 And it sounds like too that someone could be really good at I willpower, but weak on I won't

00:14:23.340 power. I'm thinking of artists, right? These are the kind of guys who can just spend all night

00:14:27.560 days without eating or athletes, right? But then they have like, like sometimes they're

00:14:32.280 alcoholics or they do drugs. Yes. They can't stop that, but they have that willpower to do what

00:14:36.560 they really, really want to do. Yes. And I'm exactly the opposite, right? So my greatest strength

00:14:42.000 certainly is the I won't power. I'm pretty good on that aspect of self-control and I've had to much

00:14:47.640 more develop the other two aspects. And I think, again, this gets into, I mean, one of the reasons I

00:14:53.200 think it's nice to, to talk about it in this way is that we all, we can all recognize our willpower

00:14:58.320 strengths. So sometimes you might look at an individual and say, oh, that person is out of

00:15:03.180 control with the way that they are free with their speech or their spending, or, you know, people will

00:15:09.520 make these judgments and not necessarily know what's going on in their insides and how much courage it

00:15:15.680 takes to get out of bed in the morning or how incredibly motivated and driven they are in some

00:15:20.340 aspect of their work or their goals. We all have these different strengths and sometimes our struggles

00:15:25.380 are a little bit more apparent than the strengths that we are implementing in our daily lives. And

00:15:29.680 particularly because they might not be how we define willpower. You know, it doesn't take a

00:15:33.700 tremendous effort for me, say to eat healthy. There's a lot of things sort of in me that naturally pull

00:15:39.180 me in that direction, but boy, do I have to work hard to overcome things like my fear of flying. And somebody

00:15:44.520 might look at me and my lifestyle and say, wow, she's got so much willpower. If they were using 1.00

00:15:49.700 these measures of things like healthy behaviors, as opposed to, you know, in my life, the, when I'm

00:15:55.520 out of control with my willpower, it's more about avoiding things that I don't want to do or that

00:16:00.540 feel overwhelming. Gotcha. So this idea of we can have strengths in certain types of willpower,

00:16:06.860 weaknesses and other, are we, does the research say that we're able to strengthen those weak parts

00:16:12.460 of our willpower, whether it's won't power, I want power, I will power? Yes, absolutely. And it almost is,

00:16:18.740 it depends on sort of where you are in your stage of life. Sometimes people ask about kids and like,

00:16:24.600 how do you develop willpower in children? And then, you know, that might be a slightly different

00:16:29.000 question than, okay, here I am at say midlife and I'm still struggling with X, Y, or Z. Is it too late

00:16:35.360 for me to develop self-control in that area? And I like to kind of separate them out because if you

00:16:39.880 think about willpower as an instinct, we know it's supposed to flourish in us. If the environment is

00:16:45.020 right. And if we have all of the things in our context that humans need to thrive. So when you

00:16:50.600 look at it from a developmental point of view, kids are most likely to naturally develop in their own

00:16:55.560 time, the different willpowers when they're in an environment that supports their goals and that is

00:17:01.700 relatively safe and trustworthy. I mean, not like being in a bubble or cocoon, but that in general,

00:17:08.740 kids growing up feel like they don't have to be vigilant every moment to the possibility that they

00:17:14.020 can't trust other people and resources are scarce and you better take what you can get now because

00:17:18.680 who knows what's coming tomorrow. And in that context, kids typically naturally develop these

00:17:24.380 different willpowers. And when you look at us as adults, often it's a result of what we've practiced

00:17:29.760 and what's going on in our environment that may be pushing different buttons. So when it comes to

00:17:35.000 strengthening willpower as adults, it may not necessarily be about having a, you know, a trusting

00:17:39.900 relationship with your caregiver or being, you know, in a school environment where people encourage

00:17:44.820 you to pursue your own goals, but it's about how well are you able to create that context for yourself

00:17:50.180 and to be that kind of support figure for yourself. So to be like a leader of yourself in your own life.

00:17:58.780 And then we know once you set that goal, there's lots of things you can do to develop the different

00:18:02.460 powers.

00:18:03.440 Yeah. We'll talk about that here in a bit, but before we do, so like 10 years ago, there was this idea that

00:18:08.120 willpower is like, is like a muscle that we have like this finite amount of willpower. And then

00:18:13.500 recently there's been research saying, well, maybe not. Is that analogy still useful that,

00:18:19.780 you know, we can strengthen our willpower like the same way we strengthen our muscle or what is your

00:18:25.740 take on the new research about that?

00:18:27.140 Yeah. I do think it's still an incredibly useful idea. And there's been a lot of debate in the field

00:18:32.060 about specific methods and specific findings that are really about experimental research in the

00:18:37.340 laboratory. You know, if you try to get people to deplete their willpower with a task that is never,

00:18:43.240 it's never as hard as what we're dealing with in everyday life. You know, maybe it's like resisting

00:18:47.620 a brownie that's on the table or it's about trying to tune out, you know, a TV that is in the corner of

00:18:53.600 the room and you have to do some written task. There's a lot of controversy around whether this idea

00:18:58.720 that willpower is limited, that when you use it, you get exhausted, but that if you use it enough and

00:19:04.840 in the right ways and you are really taking time to recover, you know, for example, with enough sleep,

00:19:10.520 which is really important for the whole willpower system, that actually you get stronger over time.

00:19:15.480 That idea, I still find it to be one of the most useful ideas for people who are interested in

00:19:20.900 increasing their willpower, even though there's been this interesting debate and some challenges

00:19:25.280 with the experimental research. And I think this is, you know, people who pay attention to their own

00:19:29.200 lives will immediately see how this is true in their own lives. The first tenet is that you can't

00:19:35.980 control everything you think, feel, say, do, and consume. We don't have that kind of energy reserve

00:19:45.420 to constantly be trying to perfect or suppress or plan every action to whatever, you know,

00:19:55.880 some sort of ideal is. It's exhausting. And we know that people who, for example, work in professions

00:20:01.340 where they aren't allowed to show what they're really thinking or feeling, thinking about people

00:20:04.980 who maybe work in customer service or work in healthcare, where they're constantly trying to

00:20:09.840 put on a good face and are dealing with a lot of stress and maybe even hostility from other people.

00:20:15.660 Like that's exhausting at the end of the day. And anyone who's listening, who's ever worked in that

00:20:18.820 sort of role, you know what I'm talking about. The same thing can be true for parenting or

00:20:22.960 caregiving, when you're taking care of someone who's sick, or you're trying to sort of control

00:20:27.120 your emotions so that you can be the best version of yourself as a partner, as a spouse, as a parent.

00:20:32.760 It can be exhausting. And then if at the end of that experience, when you're feeling most exhausted,

00:20:39.120 someone says, do you want a pizza or do you want a salad? It's not that surprising that sometimes we

00:20:43.880 just want something that is going to make us feel good in this moment, that feels like a reward,

00:20:48.480 that feels comforting. Or if we're asked in that moment now, do you want to do this next really hard,

00:20:52.680 difficult thing? We might be like, no, because I've done the difficult thing and I don't have

00:20:56.640 anything left to give. So I think that idea is incredibly useful for two reasons. One,

00:21:03.960 because if you're interested in supporting willpower sort of in our culture, helping people be the best

00:21:09.020 versions of themselves, we need to recognize how we may be undermining that through certain systems

00:21:15.980 or policies or our culture and understand that if you want people to be the best versions of

00:21:20.980 themselves, you can't constantly be asking them to sort of take on the challenges of others and

00:21:27.540 suppress their own feelings or their own instincts and impulses. But the other is it can help us feel

00:21:32.760 more human when we experience that type of exhaustion or what researchers would call depletion,

00:21:38.840 that it doesn't mean that you are a failure of a human being because you can't do it all,

00:21:43.540 all at the same time. So there's that idea.

00:21:46.500 And then the second aspect of the model, which is also super useful, is that if there's a specific

00:21:53.100 willpower challenge that you're facing, like you're trying to quit a substance that you use

00:21:57.980 regularly, it is not always going to be as hard as it is in this moment, that we do develop

00:22:04.940 strengths and habits that support us in making a lasting change over time. And whatever is the

00:22:11.600 hardest thing for you right now, if it's really important to you, what the strength model willpower

00:22:15.800 says is your brain will change in ways that support this. Your nervous system will change in ways that

00:22:22.140 support this. And you're going to be able to construct your home, your workspace, you'll build

00:22:27.240 relationships that support this over time. And it's this growth mindset that I think when you combine it

00:22:34.100 with an understanding that we can't control everything all the time, so you might need to make some

00:22:38.680 choices or you might need to let yourself off the hook and understand why certain things are difficult.

00:22:43.360 And at the same time, if you have an incredibly important goal to yourself, and this is a change you want to

00:22:48.700 make, and it is so hard to know it will not always be that hard. Those are the two ideas that are worth

00:22:54.300 saving from whatever is going on with this kind of replication crisis in the experimental research.

00:22:58.700 We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:23:02.360 And now back to the show.

00:23:04.140 Yeah. And I think the idea too, that you can strengthen your willpower, yeah, reiterate what

00:23:07.760 you just said, it gives you, it gives people a sense of agency, a sense of autonomy that they can do

00:23:11.280 something. Like if you're physically weak, you know, you can start lifting weights to get stronger

00:23:15.560 knowing that, Hey, if I sleep more, I'll have, I'll have the ability to sort of pause and plan

00:23:21.560 better. You talk about research that, you know, we've had researchers on about meditation that can help

00:23:27.540 self-control. It's not like a game changer. It's not like if you start meditating, you're going to be

00:23:31.320 like super disciplined, but it helps. It's something you can do. Other things, just exercising, physical

00:23:36.200 exercise can carry over to other aspects of our life. And we're trying to exercise willpower, whether

00:23:41.080 it's that I won't power or I will power.

00:23:43.940 I know. And it's so funny because you've mentioned three things now, sleep, meditation, and exercise

00:23:48.100 that are often the willpower challenges people come to me with. So when I teach the class, I always have

00:23:53.060 people pick a challenge they want to focus on. And so I do feel a little bit guilty when

00:23:57.440 people are like, what can you do to most effectively strengthen your willpower? And I'm like, well,

00:24:01.780 you should exercise. And people are like, what? That's what I need the willpower for next. And

00:24:06.440 like, well, you can meditate like, Oh, please. Like, you know, so I understand that sometimes when

00:24:11.380 people hear those, of course, of course, one, we could add to that is eating a diet that helps you

00:24:16.020 keep your energy levels pretty solid. Like that also helps. And there's some interesting research that,

00:24:21.140 that a diet that maybe keeps your blood sugar levels steady or a diet that includes a lot of

00:24:26.160 plant-based foods actually changes the physiology of your nervous system to help you better handle

00:24:31.500 challenges and stress in a way that supports willpower. But once again, you know, you tell

00:24:35.240 people eat a healthier diet will give you more willpower. And it seems like a chicken and egg

00:24:39.140 problem. So often when it comes to these things that we know, I mean, one thing they all have in

00:24:43.220 common is they're changing our biology and they're changing our, whether it's our neurobiology or

00:24:48.280 biochemistry or what's happening with our cardiovascular system and immune system. They all play a role in

00:24:53.780 whether or not we have willpower. Inflammation in your body can suppress willpower because it

00:24:59.180 alters the way that your brain functions. You may know that exercise can influence your willpower

00:25:03.560 by altering your cardiovascular system and how that interacts with your autonomic nervous system

00:25:08.600 in ways that can give you more or less willpower. And there's something like, it's just profoundly

00:25:13.020 biological and physiological. And it's connected to the fact that human beings are biological creatures and

00:25:18.700 willpower is an instinct that's related to how our biology works. So I always tell people like pick

00:25:24.240 the thing of those things that I mentioned, get better sleep, be physically active on a regular

00:25:29.340 basis. I mean, there's some research showing that even five minutes on a treadmill will boost your

00:25:33.280 willpower. We're not talking about you having to dedicate three hours a day to exercise if that's

00:25:37.440 not realistic, eating a diet that, that to you, you can feel it's giving you energy or meditating for

00:25:44.420 again, a few minutes a day, which changes what's happening in your nervous system and your brain.

00:25:48.180 Just do the thing that seems less, the least difficult or the least aversive. And you're

00:25:54.000 starting this upward spiral, which then makes all of the other things easier to whatever degree you

00:25:58.960 want to engage with them. Right. You don't have to grit your teeth and just force yourself to do it.

00:26:03.300 You're actually saying, don't actually, actually don't exercise your willpower too much

00:26:06.520 to strengthen your willpower because it'll come with time. Although, you know, if you do,

00:26:11.760 it'll be as long as you view it. So this is the interesting thing. If you view something difficult

00:26:16.780 as in service of your general willpower, it's more likely to generalize. So even if you do have to

00:26:22.600 grit your teeth to go for a walk or to, you know, to sit down and meditate and breathe for five to 10

00:26:28.700 minutes, if you feel like you're gritting your teeth, but at the end of it, you acknowledge,

00:26:33.180 you know, I had an intention. There was a part of me that didn't want to do it. And I did it anyway.

00:26:38.340 And you acknowledge, huh? Like I just flexed my willpower muscle. Research shows that that type of

00:26:43.300 mindset helps us generalize our strength so that the next willpower challenge you face, which might

00:26:48.420 be trying to control your temper at work, or it might be choosing not to get drunk at an event,

00:26:55.960 whatever that willpower challenge is. In that moment, you're going likely to have remembered,

00:27:00.840 okay, this is what it feels like to feel that conflict. And I know I have the strength to make

00:27:05.500 this decision now as well. So what's interesting about the rest of your book, you know, the first part

00:27:09.640 you talk about what willpower is, what's going on in the brain, and then that we can strengthen our

00:27:14.220 willpower by some of the things we just talked about. But it seems like the rest of your book is

00:27:18.380 talking about the limits of willpower so that you can avoid situations where, you know, you're going

00:27:25.040 to set yourself back despite all the willpower you exercise. And it's some really interesting

00:27:30.760 research that comes out of that. For example, this idea of moral licensing, you have a whole section

00:27:36.560 to this, right, where our willpower can actually sow the seeds of our failure, right, because of moral

00:27:43.740 licensing. So what is moral licensing? And how does our willpower, like our efforts to be good,

00:27:50.640 can backfire and actually cause us to fall short?

00:27:53.900 Yeah. So moral licensing is an example of these funny cognitive traps that humans get into,

00:27:59.300 where we end up sabotaging our own goals. So moral licensing is basically, it's when you do

00:28:04.800 something that is consistent with a goal. And so you give yourself credit. And that feeling good,

00:28:10.020 like, oh, I did that thing. For whatever reason, human beings tend to want to then give themselves

00:28:14.740 permission to do the other thing. And people will often make a choice that is not in their best

00:28:20.500 interest, because it's like we're keeping some sort of scorecard. I was good this morning,

00:28:24.940 so I can be bad this afternoon. So an example would be, let's say I saved some money when I went food

00:28:30.920 shopping. So now I feel like I am licensed to splurge and spend a little bit more money at lunch.

00:28:37.260 Or maybe I went to the gym this morning and I feel really good about that, feeling like I'm a good

00:28:43.040 person. And I give myself the credit. And then I spend that credit by eating a second helping of

00:28:49.480 dessert. And the idea of moral licensing is it's not a problem to reward yourself for doing things that

00:28:55.360 are consistent with your goals. The problem is we so often, we try to like balance it out.

00:29:01.980 We forget what our actual goal is. And we engage in a reward that actually is sabotaging a goal that

00:29:08.120 is deeply meaningful. So I definitely don't want to imply that you shouldn't, you know, encourage

00:29:12.020 yourself when you make progress on your goals. You should just ask yourself, is this reward I'm

00:29:15.960 giving myself, is it literally taking me backward, sort of undoing the progress that I made? And part of

00:29:21.540 the problem with this is that we use these terms, like I was good. And so now I'm going to give myself

00:29:27.640 a treat, you know, as if we're children who need to be bribed for doing anything at all. And it really

00:29:33.620 takes us further away from that autonomous motivation that says, Hey, the reason I chose to

00:29:38.920 save money this morning is because I'm working toward financial stability and I want to get out of

00:29:43.620 debt. That's my actual goal. And when you're connected to that, you're less likely to say,

00:29:49.260 now that I've been good, I can let myself off the hook and spend a little bit more money here.

00:29:54.220 A lot of times it's about commitment. And do we actually understand what our commitment is?

00:29:58.220 Or are we engaged in this weird sort of moral accounting system where we like to go back and

00:30:05.580 forth between being the good version of ourselves and the naughty version of ourselves or the indulgent

00:30:11.320 version of ourselves?

00:30:12.360 And really this idea of moralizing our willpower. So like we tend to do that, particularly in America,

00:30:17.480 I guess it's that Protestant work ethic, Puritan roots that we have, right? A lack of exercising 1.00

00:30:24.020 willpower is a moral failure. But you highlight research that shows when you think of willpower

00:30:29.540 in terms of morality, right? If you don't exercise it, you are morally bad. It can actually make

00:30:35.960 things worse. How so?

00:30:38.020 It can. And one of the reasons is, is because it triggers feelings of shame.

00:30:41.340 So like use the example of exercise. You could think of any number of reasons that somebody might

00:30:47.260 want to be more active. Maybe they've heard that exercise is a really good treatment alongside

00:30:52.400 antidepressants for mental health, which is true. Maybe they want to improve their health. Maybe they

00:30:59.060 want to have more energy. Maybe they want to sleep better. All these different actual positive outcomes

00:31:03.840 you could get from exercising. And then as soon as we turn it into, so if I'm being good,

00:31:09.300 I will exercise. As soon as you don't have time, or as soon as you wake up and you're feeling sick

00:31:13.720 and you don't have the energy, now all of a sudden you're bad because you didn't exercise.

00:31:18.940 And then people can feel the type of shame that makes them say, what's the point of this? I'll never

00:31:24.480 be able to meet this goal. I might as well give up now. Shame is one of the most willpower depleting

00:31:30.660 physiological states in the mind and in the body. It's basically, it's like putting on all the

00:31:36.440 breaks. Anything good that could happen, shame is not going to happen now. And it also, it backfires

00:31:42.540 because it makes us forget what our actual motivation is. And there's so much research on

00:31:48.600 this. I'm not against morality. I'm not saying go out and try to be immoral. It's almost like it's

00:31:54.700 adjacent to what the conversation should actually be, that it should actually be about what you want.

00:32:01.100 Because if we're defining willpower as the self-control to do what matters most to you, it's not about

00:32:08.680 whether I think you should exercise or I think you shouldn't smoke, or I think you should be out of

00:32:13.340 debt, or I think you should control your temper. It's not about me outside. It's about you and what

00:32:18.620 you want in your life. And willpower is basically, are you able to make choices in the context of your

00:32:23.300 life that get you closer to the life you want to have and the outcomes that you want? And if you can

00:32:28.040 remember that, instead of going into this moralizing, there's this natural energy that can

00:32:34.520 support you in reaching your goals, even when you've had a setback, or even when you've made

00:32:39.300 progress and you're starting to fall into that trap maybe of moral licensing, you'll know what you

00:32:43.040 really want. And that's why I always tell people, of these three powers, if there's one you want to

00:32:47.340 strengthen first, strengthen the want power so that you don't fall into some of these cognitive traps

00:32:52.300 like moral licensing.

00:32:53.180 Yeah. The moralizing backfiring, you see that a lot with diet because people eat a cookie and

00:32:59.280 they're like, well, just ruined my diet. Might as well just eat that, I don't know, double the

00:33:04.180 quarter pounder with cheese. It's already ruined. That's kind of when you think about it that way.

00:33:09.640 What did you ruin? It's what you ruined is your sense of yourself as, I guess, a good person making

00:33:16.300 progress today. But if you actually look at every choice you have as a new beginning, which it is,

00:33:22.380 it's, you know, the outcomes we get are a consequence of the cumulative effect of our choices.

00:33:27.540 Every single choice you make is a kind of a blank slate where you can either get yourself closer to

00:33:32.180 or further away from your goals. This whole idea that like, what's the point? I've already messed up.

00:33:37.560 It, you know, that, it doesn't mean anything when you're really clear and rational about,

00:33:43.760 about wanting to make decisions that get you what you actually want.

00:33:49.060 And the other place that this stuff can trip you up at is why, when you think of things like,

00:33:53.000 oh, well, you know, I, I ate good food, therefore I'm a good person. Like just thinking about the idea

00:33:58.400 of doing those things can make you feel good, which will like somehow weirdly like cause you not to do

00:34:04.900 the thing you actually need to do. Yeah. There's a, this, there's a lot of weird

00:34:09.340 offshoots of the licensing literature, like vicarious licensing, where if you see somebody

00:34:13.740 else do something quote unquote good, like you feel virtuous too, even if you didn't do it. Like

00:34:19.180 if you see someone else exercise, you're more likely to eat more later as if you caught. 0.95

00:34:23.900 It's the whole thing is kind of ridiculous and silly, but I should say one other thing about why

00:34:28.600 moralizing is not a great idea is because it leads us to judge others as well in a way that is, 0.80

00:34:33.920 I think runs counter to how humans actually work. And so we look at others, we make judgments about

00:34:39.920 them based on their behavior or their health or their debt or their struggles with addiction.

00:34:47.300 We think we understand something about them because we're so used to blaming and shaming ourselves.

00:34:51.680 We project that out onto other people. And that, that in itself is an additional harm. It's like this

00:34:57.880 whole circle of shame and blame where we moralize ourselves and we judge others. And it's this whole

00:35:03.820 system we get stuck in where, where we are failing to recognize why a lot of these things are

00:35:09.820 difficult and not turning towards the resources that make change easier. So, you know, it's,

00:35:16.200 it's often what we're doing to ourselves and also what we're doing to others, including people we care

00:35:20.040 about. And the same things that don't work for you do not work when you try putting them out on other

00:35:25.560 people, like shaming other people for being bad, for not, for not being able to make a change in their

00:35:30.160 lives. So yeah, it sounds like the antidote to this then is, okay, focus on what you want,

00:35:34.960 right? What the ultimate goal is. But then it also sounds like practice some self-compassion and

00:35:39.120 only compassion for yourself if you slip up, but also compassion for others who have also slipped up.

00:35:45.060 Yes. And not only for people who've slipped up, but also for people who are clearly struggling.

00:35:49.600 You know, one of the things that, that if you spend any time with people who are recovering in recovery

00:35:55.880 for any sort of addiction, what you realize very quickly is that that person, when you get the height

00:36:02.760 of their addiction is able to stay sober for one day, one hour, one minute, that person has just now

00:36:09.340 exerted more willpower than someone who has never dealt with addiction in their lives may ever have to

00:36:16.680 exert in their entire lives. That, that often people who seem to be struggling the most, that

00:36:22.180 people are most likely to judge as having no willpower. If you actually look at what's happening

00:36:25.700 in their brains, what's happening in their bodies and the resources that they're spending or the

00:36:29.420 courage that they have, that they are exerting tremendous willpower. And so I think that that's

00:36:36.360 another, and this, this true for ourselves as well, and can help us have more self-compassion.

00:36:40.960 You know, the person who has the most anxiety or the strongest impulses or, you know, those,

00:36:47.920 those challenges, that is the person who actually is using the most willpower. And we need to give

00:36:53.460 ourselves some credit for it. Even if the ultimate outcome today is I didn't succeed or I gave in,

00:36:59.520 or I wasn't able to do that thing that I said I was going to do, but I got closer or I delayed giving

00:37:05.560 in for 10 minutes. Yeah. And I think this idea of self-compassion, I think a lot of men,

00:37:10.000 when they think of willpower for men, at least it's like, okay, discipline, you got to grit your

00:37:14.380 teeth, you got to self-flagellate if you fail. But the research actually says that's going to cause

00:37:18.440 you to actually fail at your ultimate goal. And by exercising some self-compassion, you can actually

00:37:24.400 get to where you want to go. And I think a lot of, I think the problem is a lot of men, when they hear

00:37:28.060 compassion, they think like, you got to take it easy, you're, you're soft or whatever. It's not like

00:37:34.140 that. Like the way, the way I think of it is like, I have a, I have a coach who does my barbell coaching.

00:37:38.580 And when I have a bad week, like he doesn't get down on me hard, but he's not there. He's also not

00:37:44.200 like, oh, you poor baby. It's like, it's not like, it's not like that.

00:37:48.320 This is, I'm so glad you're saying this. So I, part of the work that I do is research on self-compassion

00:37:53.440 and compassion. And it's very common in that field for people to describe self-compassion as self-soothing

00:38:00.400 and saying things like literally yesterday, I heard a psychologist say that self-compassion is when

00:38:05.500 you're able to say to yourself, there, there, sweetheart. I just like cringed on the inside.

00:38:10.900 I don't know. That's not what I want. It's, that's not my version of self-compassion. For me,

00:38:15.660 it's imagine that you can, that you believe in yourself, that you want to help yourself reach

00:38:23.240 your goals. And so what would you say to yourself? What would you say to someone you believe in,

00:38:27.540 but you know is struggling? How would you help a friend or a loved one, someone you care about?

00:38:32.320 How would you help them step up and reach their goals to get back on track? And I think it is

00:38:37.220 often like being a coach and it's like being a mentor. And it's not always about being about this

00:38:42.780 idea of treating yourself like you're an infant who needs to be soothed. It's about, it's about

00:38:48.500 support and that can be firm and it can be encouraging. And that's a form of compassion that often is what

00:38:55.160 we need when it's about reaching our own goals. I mean, you feel free to say to yourself,

00:38:59.600 they're their sweetheart in a moment when you're, you know, you're really ill and in pain.

00:39:04.140 But when it comes to willpower, sometimes the self-compassion we need is like, hey,

00:39:08.820 remember what your goal is. Like this is the time to show up and do it. And I know you can do it.

00:39:14.780 Let's remember that last time you did something really difficult. So you've demonstrated the

00:39:18.880 strength is available to you. So let's think about what the next step is. What would be the next

00:39:23.000 positive action you can take? That's self-compassion.

00:39:26.540 I love it. So in this, also this idea, um, tying in the compassion is also one thing to help your

00:39:32.560 willpower strengthen it is to surround yourself with individuals who will help you exercise your

00:39:38.640 willpower in healthy ways.

00:39:40.180 Yes. So what's so fascinating is how social our brains are. And we are constantly being influenced

00:39:47.500 by other people in our environments in ways that, you know, are helpful and also sometimes harmful.

00:39:53.080 And one of the best ways, if you're looking to make a change in your life is to find other people

00:39:57.460 who share that goal. And we know that in that way, you can sort of outsource your willpower.

00:40:01.660 If you've got friends or you've got a coworker, or you've even got, you know, people in an online

00:40:05.640 community on social media who are with you on this. Sometimes when your willpower is the weakest,

00:40:11.600 they kind of carry you along. They remind you what your goals are, or maybe they make decisions for you,

00:40:16.300 like, okay, no, we said we were going to do this. So we're going to do this now that help you have

00:40:21.660 willpower. Even when that part of you that is in deepest conflict or most exhausted and drained

00:40:27.520 couldn't find it for yourself. And the same can be true in the other direction that, you know,

00:40:32.500 if you're trying to make a change and the people in your life are really the opposite of that,

00:40:38.400 sometimes you need to make choices about changing who you spend time with, or else you need to think

00:40:43.320 about giving yourself a kind of vaccine for when you're around them. If you can't find a way to

00:40:48.760 separate yourself from family members or coworkers or parts of your community. And research suggests

00:40:54.080 that one of the best sort of willpower vaccines against negative influences is literally in the

00:40:58.960 morning when you wake up, just tell yourself what your biggest goal is. And that you sort of like

00:41:04.440 plant this in your mind so that you're more likely to recognize when people are pulling you away

00:41:09.440 from that goal. So the last thing I like to talk about, which I think is interesting,

00:41:13.380 some of the research you've highlighted about these cognitive traps that when we exercise our

00:41:17.780 willpower can lead us astray is this idea of repressing. So this is, I guess, the exercising,

00:41:22.420 I won't power, but sometimes exercising, I won't power to say, I'm not going to do this

00:41:27.060 can actually make the thing we're trying to avoid like more tempting. What's going on there and how can we

00:41:34.220 avoid that? This is an interesting kind of paradox of the brain. So just imagine that you're going to set a

00:41:38.880 goal for yourself that you are not going to do something or you're not going to think about

00:41:44.440 something. So you've set this goal that is about not doing something. And if you're really clear

00:41:51.360 about that, your brain will start to become vigilant for any threat to that goal. And so it's going to be

00:41:58.160 paying attention to the environment. Is there an opportunity to do that thing I said I wasn't going to do

00:42:03.760 to eat it or to buy it or whatever it is. And you're also going to be monitoring yourself

00:42:08.480 internally for any signs that you're thinking about it or planning it or desiring it. So you set

00:42:14.520 up this kind of hyper vigilance that then any time there is a trigger for it, you may be hyper responsive

00:42:21.140 to it. This doesn't always happen. So it's more likely to happen when you're really stressed or

00:42:26.980 you're really distracted or you haven't gotten enough sleep. But there's this paradoxical effect

00:42:31.680 where you set this goal not to think or say or do or consume something that because you're then in

00:42:38.080 this heightened internal state of vigilance, it just primes you to give in or it amplifies any of

00:42:45.920 those impulses. And people can find themselves in this really weird trap where they're like,

00:42:50.720 I'm going to stop thinking about this. And the more they try to suppress it, the bigger and louder

00:42:57.740 it becomes. So there are kind of two solutions to this. One is to try to find a way to define your

00:43:04.720 goals so that you're looking for something to say yes to. So rather than what I'm not going to do,

00:43:11.120 what's the positive alternative to it? If you're not going to complain, that's like your goal. I'm

00:43:16.120 never going to complain. I'm not going to vent. I'm not going to criticize. Well, what do you want

00:43:21.080 to say? Maybe I'm going to look for an opportunity to thank someone. I'm going to look for an opportunity

00:43:25.340 to call someone out for doing something positive. You know, I'm going to look for a way to acknowledge

00:43:31.000 what somebody else has contributed. I don't know what it's going to be, but then you set that

00:43:34.520 vigilance to look for the thing you want to say yes to. And there are a lot of willpower challenges

00:43:38.840 that can be redefined in this way, not all of them. But the other thing that you can do is practice

00:43:46.080 paying attention in a really open and different way to whatever the impulse or the trigger is

00:43:53.120 so that it becomes a kind of strength to be aware of it without giving into it. And this is

00:43:59.240 where mindfulness comes in. Fantastic. Well, Kelly, there's a lot more we could talk about,

00:44:04.000 but I'm curious, like, what would you say based on your, you've been doing this for 10 years

00:44:07.880 and working with lots and lots of different types of people from all walks of life. Like what's like

00:44:12.480 one or two things that listeners can start doing today to get the most bang for their buck on

00:44:17.560 either strengthening or their willpower, or I guess, I don't know, managing their willpower in a more

00:44:22.620 effective way? Yeah. I think the first thing is something I've already said, which is about

00:44:27.760 strengthening your want power and to take a moment or take many moments and ask yourself what's most

00:44:34.740 important to you. Maybe identify the role that's most important to you or the goal or the relationship

00:44:40.480 and how you want to be in that role or how you want to be in that relationship. Is there a change

00:44:46.020 you want to make and get pretty clear about what those core goals and values are and to spend time

00:44:52.320 every day reminding yourself of them? I literally don't get out of bed in the morning if I can avoid

00:44:58.220 it without doing this value goal check-in. It takes less than 60 seconds and I've trained myself

00:45:03.780 to think of it first thing in the morning. The second thing is if you aren't getting enough sleep

00:45:09.500 to try to get a little bit more sleep, there's no fixed number, but we know that the way that

00:45:15.420 sleep deprivation affects the brain is it basically derails all of the neurological processes that make

00:45:21.900 it easier to have willpower and to use your willpower. So that's a lifestyle change. If you're

00:45:26.800 going to make one, sleep would be probably the number one. And the third thing I would say is if you know

00:45:31.540 what your goal is, there's something you're trying to change, or there's a goal that you're pursuing,

00:45:36.020 to get very clear about something you can do today that is consistent with that and to celebrate it.

00:45:43.080 It's the small thing. It's the one action. An example I sometimes give people, people like,

00:45:49.020 well, how would that apply to something like quitting smoking? And there's research that if

00:45:52.700 you can delay the first cigarette of the day by a few minutes, that that can lead to an upward spiral

00:45:58.080 that increases your chance of quitting in the longterm. And that's something that like anyone could do

00:46:03.700 today or tomorrow. Just delay it a few minutes and figure out what that is for your goal. What's

00:46:08.900 the one thing that you absolutely can do today that is consistent with your goal? Even if you don't

00:46:13.780 have any idea yet, how something that small could lead to the final success that you're dreaming of

00:46:20.320 and trust that often with change and with willpower, this is incremental. It's not all or nothing black

00:46:26.060 and white. Baby steps. What about Bob? Yes, I do.

00:46:33.020 Well, Kelly, where can people go to learn more about your work?

00:46:35.520 My website, kellymcgonigle.com.

00:46:37.940 And you got a new book coming out pretty soon, correct?

00:46:40.340 I do. It's called The Joy of Movement. What I try to do is find the best research that people

00:46:45.260 aren't talking about that can improve people's lives. So I did a book on willpower, a book on stress.

00:46:50.140 And this next book is really about how to find mental health and happiness and community

00:46:55.460 through the body and through physical action.

00:46:58.800 I love that. That's right up my alley. I think we're going to have to have you back on the show

00:47:01.120 to talk about that too. Great.

00:47:03.360 All right. Well, Kelly McGonigle, thanks so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:47:05.680 Likewise.

00:47:06.720 My guest today was Kelly McGonigle. She's the author of the book,

00:47:09.060 The Willpower Instinct. It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find out

00:47:12.780 more information about her work at her website, kellymcgonigle.com. Also check out our show notes

00:47:17.080 at aom.is slash willpower, where you can find links to resources, where you can delve deeper

00:47:20.800 into this topic.

00:47:28.560 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. Check out our website at

00:47:31.880 artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives. There's over 500 episodes there,

00:47:36.020 as well as thousands of articles we've written over the years about things like willpower,

00:47:39.160 for example. And if you'd like to enjoy ad-free episodes of the Art of Manliness podcast,

00:47:42.520 you can do so only on Stitcher Premium. Go to stitcherpremium.com, use code manliness at checkout

00:47:46.940 to get a month free of Stitcher Premium. After you sign up, download the Stitcher app on Android

00:47:51.460 or iOS, and you can start enjoying ad-free episodes of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:47:55.860 And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate if you take one minute to give us a review on

00:47:58.900 iTunes or Stitcher. It helps out a lot. And if you've done that already, thank you. Please consider

00:48:02.540 sharing the show with a friend or family member who you think will get something out of it.

00:48:05.740 As always, thank you for the continued support. And until next time, this is Brett McKay,

00:48:09.260 reminding you not only to listen to the AOM podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

00:48:16.940 Thank you.

The Art of Manliness - August 05, 2019

#531： How to Best Harness Your Willpower

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript