The Art of Manliness - #532： How to Create a Neighborhood Where Kids Play Outside

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast listen as you

00:00:11.480 drive through most neighborhoods in america these days you might notice something missing

00:00:15.380 the shrieks and laughter of kids playing outside when my guest today had kids he decided he wasn't

00:00:19.980 going to let them grow up in another quiet morgue-like neighborhood instead he was going

00:00:23.440 to figure out why kids weren't playing outside anymore and how to fix the problem his name is

00:00:27.340 mike lanza and in his book playberhood turn your neighborhood into a place for play he shares how

00:00:32.060 he did just that at the start of our conversation mike explains how he became an advocate for kids

00:00:36.440 playing outside by themselves with minimal adult supervision he shares his theories on why outdoor

00:00:41.100 play has decreased and why simply limiting screen time and participation in organized extracurriculars

00:00:45.800 doesn't solve the problem mike then explains why you need a critical mass of kids to be playing

00:00:49.940 outside before outdoor play becomes a norm and what parents can do to create this critical mass by

00:00:54.600 changing the environment in their yard and the social dynamics in their neighborhood after the

00:00:58.520 show's over check out our show notes at aom.is slash playberhood

00:01:02.360 mike lanza welcome to the show yeah thank you so you are the author of the book playberhood turn your

00:01:20.100 neighborhood into a place for play so tell us about this idea of playberhood that you came up with what's

00:01:25.020 your story how did this all come about well uh well i was living in san francisco with my wife back in

00:01:33.100 the early 2000s and we had just been you know single adults having a great time in san francisco

00:01:40.460 and when my wife became pregnant with our first child who turned out to be a son all of a sudden i i

00:01:46.640 realized boy i have i haven't i really don't know what childhood is like these days i haven't really

00:01:53.480 hung out with people who have kids very much i've just been living in my own single world you know

00:01:58.640 urban single world but i was an older father to be i was 40 years old so i had lots of friends who had

00:02:04.600 kids and i started paying attention and asking questions and i remember one day i was at a friend's

00:02:11.020 house and it really hit me wow his son was arguing my friend's son was arguing with him about you know

00:02:19.280 scheduling and being with this kid or being with that kid where they were going and it sounded awful

00:02:25.040 to me and i turned to my friend and i said so why doesn't he just go out and play and my friend said

00:02:31.800 oh kids don't do that anymore and i thought wow and and you know when i really processed it i i thought

00:02:39.480 to myself the best things in my life the best memories of my childhood are are just not possible

00:02:45.120 for this kid and apparently according to my friend are not possible for for most kids these days maybe

00:02:50.860 all kids these days and i i just can't accept that i'm not going to raise my kid that way and uh so my

00:02:56.420 first reaction was well i'm just going to buy a house in a great neighborhood that has lots of kids

00:03:01.900 play and i'll solve the problem i thought it was a problem you know i could just i could just solve

00:03:06.080 with money and and moving and i searched the search ended up ended up searching for over two

00:03:11.780 years for a house and i never found a house in a great neighborhood that was available and with

00:03:16.720 lots of kids playing i just realized how how difficult that was it was almost impossible but what

00:03:22.780 i did find was a house that had the bones had the had the infrastructure it had it was very walkable

00:03:28.480 a lot of good destinations close by calm street lots of kids living in the area not playing outside but

00:03:35.420 living in the area kids our kids age at the time i had a four-year-old and a one-year-old and we had

00:03:41.300 thought maybe we'd have another kid and i thought well that's the best i'm going to do i'll move to

00:03:45.480 this place and it has a lot of things that we can make a make into a great place for kids to play

00:03:51.240 and that's really when i started play over hood so yeah that point you made about you're some of

00:03:55.740 your greatest memories as a kid took part like when you took part in unsupervised play with just your

00:04:02.500 buddies right you're just by yourself with other kids like some of like i can when you said that

00:04:06.780 like i can think i started thinking back to my memories as a child and yeah like most of them

00:04:11.060 happened like when i was like playing in a creek by myself with my friends like there's no adults

00:04:16.000 around yeah it's it's i don't want to i i don't want my parents to feel bad they're they're passed

00:04:23.160 away or they may they rest in peace but uh yeah my best memories most of my best memories from my

00:04:28.320 childhood are don't have any adults around and i think there's a good reason for that i think that

00:04:33.760 we get an awful lot out of our parents that we treasure the rest of our lives but they set us up

00:04:40.360 for great experiences when they're not around and that's when we really learn the most that's when we

00:04:45.140 grow the most and those are the most memorable experiences and boy it's sad childhood is just not

00:04:51.460 not very good for most kids these days well talk about that what what's the problem like with kids

00:04:56.040 not playing well you know people just say well the way kids are doing things now is just different

00:05:00.520 it's not better it's not worse it's just different but you you make the case no actually because kids

00:05:05.380 aren't playing there's some downsides to that what are those well there there are things that are

00:05:09.620 the easy answers to that question are the measurable things and so one of the things that a lot of people

00:05:17.060 talk about is childhood obesity big problem i don't know the exact statistics but some very large

00:05:23.040 proportion of of kids is obese just so heavy so so overweight that they can't even really exercise

00:05:30.240 well in some states in the united states like mississippi i remember hearing it's over 30 percent

00:05:35.820 of of kids are obese less so in in other states but still higher everywhere than it was decades ago and

00:05:42.740 that's measurable things things are a little less measurable are their emotional state there are some

00:05:48.020 studies that have tried to compare kids today versus kids decades ago there's this one study that

00:05:54.520 that where they give kids the same test and they've been doing it since 1937 or 38 i think and from that

00:06:01.940 one study giving the same test all these years five times as many kids have emotional problems than had

00:06:10.100 emotional problems back in the 30s and 40s five times we also have an increase in child and teenage

00:06:16.160 suicide big big problem and then there are things that are really not measurable at all but i think

00:06:21.500 are very very important the ability of kids to to make rules to to adjudicate disputes when they have an

00:06:29.340 argument with somebody to bend to accommodate a kid who isn't as able who maybe needs some needs some

00:06:37.180 special help all these things i group them into into you know what you might call for a kid play skills

00:06:43.420 but as adults we want adults to be able to solve problems to create rules where there aren't good rules

00:06:50.980 to create a society that works for everybody and these are the sorts of things we did what i did with my

00:06:57.100 friends when we played our own games of pickup pickup baseball pickup basketball pickup two-hand

00:07:02.040 tap football we were doing that every day we were you know deciding where to play we were making rules

00:07:07.740 because they were always a little bit different we had arguments we solved the arguments we needed lots of

00:07:13.440 kids to play so we let kids play who weren't as able as us and we bent the rules for them so there was one

00:07:19.100 kid in our neighborhood who was mentally disabled and we wanted him to play softball with us and there was no

00:07:25.020 way he could strike out he got as many strikes as he wanted and we wouldn't try to get him out really fast we

00:07:30.620 would let him get to first base these are the kinds of things we want our adults to do and what i can i think we could

00:07:36.360 argue adults are not so good at doing these days compared to a few decades ago yeah and you mentioned

00:07:41.940 all those things those skills right rule making adjudicating disputes making accommodations for

00:07:47.560 kids with special needs nowadays like adults do that for the kids like the adults make the decisions

00:07:53.020 and it's not it's not no longer kid-led no it's no longer kid-led and so so kids think that their job

00:07:59.980 is to show up and you know to do what they're told and you know not only is that not you know

00:08:06.420 they're not learning a lot but to try this and you know people who are listening go to a field and

00:08:12.180 maybe you have kids who are in in youth sports go to a field and listen for how many cries of laughter

00:08:18.340 shrieks of laughter and and joy that you hear it doesn't happen very often it's pretty quiet it's

00:08:25.560 pretty serious and i would argue it's just not that much fun but you know if if you have a group

00:08:30.840 of kids who are playing on their own you hear a lot more of that sort of thing kids are not growing

00:08:35.200 and they're just not having as much fun as they used to but yeah yeah they're not having fun but

00:08:39.000 like when they're having fun with play like as you said they're learning some really important

00:08:43.140 life skills it's a win-win yeah right play yeah play it's fun and it's also serious stuff you're

00:08:48.480 learning serious stuff but let's talk about like why like why why don't you hear those

00:08:51.480 shrieks of laughter anymore when you drive through neighborhoods what what's happened say since

00:08:56.060 i mean even when i was a kid which was 30 years ago like what's changed since then well there are

00:09:02.400 two ways to answer this question and the most common way people answer the question is as a social

00:09:08.940 scientist oh let's diagnose the problem and you know a lot of people have answers and you know and

00:09:16.120 they're they're essentially correct answers have lots of a lot you know tv now has 500 channels we

00:09:22.600 have the internet we have mobile phones ipads we have a lot a lot more activities than we used to

00:09:28.840 that's sort of the standard way to answer the question and from a social science point of view

00:09:33.260 that makes a lot of sense the problem with answering the question that way is that that leads you to come

00:09:41.320 up with solutions that address those causes and the solutions if you frame the problem as too much

00:09:48.920 of this too much of that too much of that your solution is let's take them away and so you hear a lot

00:09:53.540 of parents saying no you know we're gonna cut out screen time you know only one hour a day or we're you

00:09:59.900 know we're we're not gonna we're not gonna sign up kids for that many activities and we're just gonna push

00:10:04.820 them out the door and it doesn't work it's you know that we found out back in the late 80s for those of us

00:10:10.740 who are old enough that you know soviet style you know just just withholding things from people

00:10:15.280 doesn't doesn't give people a reason to to change their behavior it's just miserable and that's what

00:10:21.520 happens you you push kids outside without anything to do and they look out in the neighborhood and

00:10:26.080 there's nothing going on so i i'd like to frame the problem i do agree you know they have too many

00:10:30.820 too much screen time and you know too many activities and you know that they need to be doing other

00:10:35.000 things but i'd rather frame the problem in terms of what are neighborhoods like today versus what

00:10:40.400 were neighborhoods like decades ago so if you push a kid outside they look around neighborhoods are

00:10:45.760 boring aren't they i mean why would someone want to go out and play in the neighborhood today when

00:10:49.920 there's nothing going on it's you know it's an awful choice so neighborhoods have kind of lost or let's

00:10:56.280 say they're losing in the competition for kids attention you know if kids a kid has an extra hour in an

00:11:01.960 afternoon he or she is going to think well i could turn on my television it's it's going to have

00:11:06.840 something i could turn on my ipad i can play this game it's going to work it's going to be there what

00:11:12.900 happens if i go outside there's a very very low probability that anything's going on and so they

00:11:19.100 choose they choose the video game or they they choose the television so a lot of what the emphasis

00:11:24.020 of neighborhood is is about how about encouraging parents giving parents ideas ways to make their

00:11:31.140 neighborhood into an interesting place that actually is a a competitor with television with video games

00:11:37.840 with the other activities so that so that the neighborhood is attractive to kids and so that's the way

00:11:42.820 i'd like to frame the problem and this way you frame the problem speaks to the network effect that you

00:11:48.160 talk about in the book about kids deciding whether they play or don't play outside right so if there

00:11:53.480 are any kids out there playing no one's going to play but if there are kids out there playing

00:11:58.600 then the kid more kids are more likely to play yeah that that's that sounds that sounds almost

00:12:04.340 too simple but it's actually an important concept and the network effect is something that we see in a

00:12:09.920 lot of i studied economics so i i like to think this way it's it's it comes very naturally to me but

00:12:15.600 but if you think about for instance the different kinds of cell phone operating systems there's really

00:12:21.220 two there's android and there's ios you know why are there only two well there used to be windows phone

00:12:28.280 there used to be blackberry there used to be actually a lot of others some companies have tried to

00:12:33.160 promote their own new smartphone operating systems but there's only two why is that because there's

00:12:39.260 this network effect that if someone else uses ios that actually benefits me because i use ios

00:12:46.420 because that means there will be more apps built for ios there'll be more apple stores around

00:12:52.860 where they can repair and they can they can solve my problems and so i benefit from someone else's use

00:12:59.600 of ios devices well the network effect works in neighborhoods like this you would think that the

00:13:05.480 decision the family makes about let's say this summer now so what are kids doing in the summer

00:13:10.860 you would think that that is a that's a private decision that has that is just something that you

00:13:16.840 know is no one else's business but actually if my neighbors send all their kids to camp every day

00:13:22.840 that affects my kids experience that means that my kids really can't have a good time

00:13:28.920 in the neighborhood during the day in the summer during weekdays in the summer because every all the

00:13:34.200 neighbor kids are out so whether we like it or not neighbors decisions about what their kids do

00:13:40.940 and the kids decisions themselves actually have an effect on my kids so there's this network effect

00:13:46.200 and what you find in in a network effect situation is that there's two generally two two possible

00:13:52.680 equilibria one is nothing and the other is all all or nothing and so that's what that's that's what

00:14:00.140 happens with neighborhood play you either have i mean if if if a kid wants to go out and is thinking

00:14:05.060 about hey maybe i'll go outside and and check it out and see if anybody's out there if there's a a low

00:14:10.560 probability but not zero there's a 10 chance or five percent chance that someone's out there

00:14:15.140 why bother you know they they look us they look around there's there's a 90 or 95 chance there's

00:14:20.760 nothing going on most likely there's nothing going on but if they turn on their their computer if they

00:14:25.120 turn on their their their ipad there's a hundred percent chance that they're going to have something

00:14:29.320 to do so so of 10 or five percent or even 20 chance tends to crash down to zero because no one

00:14:37.840 wants to try if it's so low on the other hand if it's hopping if something's happening all the time

00:14:43.820 then you know that that's that's attractive that people want to be there if there's something going

00:14:49.340 on all the time so there's this natural tendency to have all or nothing and uh it's very important

00:14:54.740 because you know parents think oh if i put the little tyke slide in my front yard i've done a good

00:15:00.720 thing because i've given my kid something to do outside but the truth is that making because in

00:15:07.640 this day and age kids don't play outside very much or hardly at all in most neighborhoods that

00:15:12.680 making your neighborhood into a place where kids want to play you know and that's their choice to play

00:15:19.240 is actually really hard you have to create critical mass so that kids have a hangout and they're showing up

00:15:25.700 on a very regular basis yeah and so back say when you were a kid or i was a kid there were those

00:15:31.440 there were those hangouts right like there might have been some kid's house like that was the hangout

00:15:35.400 you'd all just show up there and then you decide what you're going to do that day or you'd show up at

00:15:39.420 a local park or you'd show up at the creek but yeah that's not there a lot of neighborhoods don't have

00:15:44.480 that anymore yeah and there's a there's a there's a term for a little academic on on you again but

00:15:49.960 there's this term in sociology called a third place the idea of a third place

00:15:54.520 put forth by a sociologist named ray oldenberg is that human beings have in history have had

00:16:03.160 in general three different places in their life that were the foundation of their social life

00:16:08.400 one of their first place is their home where their family is their second place is their

00:16:12.780 is their is their workplace or school where they show up every day and and they have that social

00:16:18.960 group there but then there's this third place and the third place isn't so formal it's a place that you

00:16:23.920 show up when you want and when you show up there's almost always someone there who you want to see

00:16:31.660 and you enjoy your time with them and you leave when you want to leave and so for adults the

00:16:36.260 prototypical third place at least in the in the late 20th century was the cheers bar those guys those

00:16:42.060 folks just showed up and they had instant social life and and they they could count on there being

00:16:46.560 somebody there that they wanted to see and they want to hang out with for kids well for me i had a

00:16:51.360 stretch of street between my house and a house across the street where we played ball every day

00:16:55.740 there was a a place in the woods but there were these places that we just knew we could just show

00:17:00.220 up and we had a very high probability that you know we weren't going to be we weren't there was going

00:17:06.860 to be something going on and today these days you know kids still yearn for that almost no kids have

00:17:13.840 that in their in the physical world and so facebook instagram snapchat have become the de facto third

00:17:21.640 place uh for children today and it's really sad so do we have any do you have any idea like what

00:17:27.960 critical mass is required in a neighborhood for like a neighborhood to take root have you been able

00:17:32.720 to figure that out or see anything well yeah i i i i wish i could give you an exact answer but i'm

00:17:39.540 i'll i'll give you my best answer by describing my neighborhood we uh and i know you're going you'll

00:17:47.940 probably ask me about specifically what i've done to make my yard into a really compelling third place

00:17:54.900 a really compelling hangout for kids but i think we've succeeded for the most part and i would say

00:18:00.720 for our yard there are certain times of day it's not all times of day but certain times of day

00:18:06.800 where it's quite likely that you'll find something going on so right now it's it's 10 o'clock in the

00:18:13.660 morning on a weekday and it's dead there's nothing going on and you're usually isn't at least on a

00:18:20.060 weekday on on weekend days that there often is but um late afternoon before dinner time say four or

00:18:26.300 five o'clock there's almost always something going on and there's a lot of reasons for that one is

00:18:31.560 my family has three boys you know and and right now they're 10 11 and 15 but growing up through the

00:18:38.360 past few years they've been very very active being outside next door we have a family of of three boys

00:18:44.320 slightly younger ages there are uh some by the way there's there's some houses very close to us

00:18:51.100 next door another next door neighbor on the other side of us they never show up here uh they used to

00:18:55.580 show up but you know we do have a good supply of kids here and that's one of the reasons we moved

00:19:00.780 here and some of these kids not all of them become what i you know you could call the anchor tenants

00:19:06.580 the kids who are here almost all the time and they form the foundation and then other kids show up

00:19:12.760 because they know that if they they're not next door they're a block away two blocks away if they come

00:19:17.740 there's going to be something going on we're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors

00:19:21.360 and now back to the show well so let's talk about your what you did in your house to make it a to

00:19:28.140 encourage the playbook because i think this is interesting because like what you're what we the

00:19:31.260 end goal is like the kids are making the choices right and directing themselves but in order for that

00:19:36.460 to happen the parents it seems like have to do you know set up a an environment to make that happen

00:19:41.580 right so what you did you found out where there were kids it was walkable but like what did you do

00:19:47.140 to get neighbor kids outside playing like what what's there at your house that makes it attractive

00:19:53.480 well i'll start by saying there's some purists out there and i can understand there's purists of

00:19:59.440 children's play who say oh my god you did all this work you shouldn't be doing that you should just

00:20:05.720 kick the kids outside and they should play on their own because all kids really want to play

00:20:11.520 and you know i agree with that theory the problem is we have a culture today in the 21st century a

00:20:20.260 children's culture that is antagonistic to play you know there are there you know i talked about it

00:20:26.400 before there are so many different choices kids have and other kids aren't playing and it's very

00:20:31.900 deeply ingrained in in kids minds that the play is not something that they see other kids doing

00:20:37.640 they don't see kids on tv doing it playing in neighborhoods so i have come to believe that

00:20:42.860 parents need to do some work to set up the conditions and then i i i like to think and it's

00:20:49.980 happened certainly happened in our case that once you set those conditions up and and and create the

00:20:56.320 cultural change in your neighborhood then it has a life of its own and we've seen that so what have

00:21:01.960 we done so there's two main components to what we've done there's the sort of the physical things

00:21:08.480 we've done with our yard to make it into a very inviting place and then the other side is just the

00:21:14.440 social engineering you will of walking around talking to people um kind of you know establishing

00:21:20.360 the relationships and and getting to know people in the neighborhood who you know most people don't

00:21:25.500 get to know their neighbors like we have so the first part physical the physical facility here i i i live

00:21:31.500 on a let's see it's 150 foot long by by um 50 foot wide lot so that's 7 500 square feet that's average

00:21:40.560 where we live i live in menlo park california so it's you know i guess kind of suburban and so it's

00:21:45.780 big for a city lot but it's it's not that big for a suburban lot it's it's a not that big but what i did

00:21:51.820 was i looked at our yard and i thought i i rethought literally honestly every square foot outside of our

00:21:59.360 house i rethought in terms of how we could use it rather than how can i make it look like the other

00:22:06.960 yards in the neighborhood or how can i make it look right for selling the house i don't plan on

00:22:11.040 selling the house but but it's it's amazing if you sit and think about it how how people do not

00:22:16.900 they don't they don't they don't think about how to use their their their space outside their house

00:22:23.340 they're always thinking about oh what are the other neighbors doing and they've got these shrubs and

00:22:27.660 they've got these flower gardens and they got all this all this stuff that actually isn't useful at

00:22:31.200 all so that that's that's that's the that's the that's the highlight what we've done is is uh you

00:22:38.220 know we we have all sorts of great facilities so in the front yard first thing we did was i tore out

00:22:42.960 the pavers pavers are these you know stones uh in our driveway which the real estate agent will tell

00:22:48.620 you oh it's luxurious and everybody wants pavers pavers are horrible for kids for a driveway because

00:22:54.440 they're they're they're not smooth and what do kids want to do on a driveway they like to they

00:22:59.880 like to roll little wheels they like to roll scooters rollerblades they they like to ride bikes

00:23:05.660 they like to play basketball they like to play bouncy ball they like to draw a sidewalk chalk all of that

00:23:10.820 doesn't work on a driveway with pavers or bricks or gravel smooth so i had the pavers taken out we we put

00:23:18.940 smooth concrete uh there as smooth as like we could get it and that's that's paid many many

00:23:25.600 dividends over the years we've also put in a picnic table in our front yard not our backyard because our

00:23:30.720 backyard where we live in northern california is is fenced in and for some reason i i grew up in a

00:23:38.460 place where we didn't have any fences i like seeing my neighbors for some reason where we live in

00:23:42.380 northern california the custom is to put fences everywhere because for some reason you don't want

00:23:46.460 to see your neighbors i don't know but when we eat outside we like to see our neighbors and so we

00:23:51.520 have a lot of dinners in our front yard at our picnic table and people walk down the street they

00:23:57.420 take walks in the evening they take walks with their dog and we always almost always start a

00:24:01.620 conversation with somebody we see someone we know it's very social we have we have a lot of other

00:24:07.620 things we have whiteboard we have 30 feet of whiteboard in the front yard we have some some

00:24:11.620 public art some mosaics that we've made with a with a local artist we used to have a sandbox out

00:24:17.140 there we've taken away since our kids are older we used to have a play river in the backyard by the

00:24:22.160 way i'll say i originally thought we're not doing anything in the backyard because we need to be out

00:24:27.120 in front meeting people and seeing people it's no good in us being in the backyard where people don't

00:24:33.120 see us but we've gotten a reputation people gotten to know our yard and we have a lot of we have

00:24:37.800 space in our backyard so we put some amazing things in our backyard a huge playhouse that we do sleep

00:24:43.740 overs in an in-ground trampoline ground level which is much safer than a trampoline that's that's above

00:24:50.220 ground it's also a lot more fun we have a play structure we have a zip line so we have a lot of

00:24:57.020 critical mass and you might say oh my gosh that's a lot of money you know that's a lot of that's a lot

00:25:01.940 of resources it is but you need to consider we live in a neighborhood with very expensive homes and

00:25:07.720 kids have the most amazing electronics inside the houses that you can imagine so we're in a

00:25:13.280 competition we're in a competition with every kid having a place where every kid has an ipad every

00:25:18.280 kid has hundreds of channels of television we've got a really compelling place that's the that's the

00:25:24.220 physical facilities on the other side especially when my kids were younger we were out playing in the

00:25:30.260 street or in our front yard pretty much every day after dinner some days before dinner like in the

00:25:34.860 winter if i had the time to take off of work we were out knocking on doors we would very most

00:25:40.880 likely walk to our grocery store right or ride bikes to our grocery store rather than than drive we got

00:25:46.500 to know our neighbors we we really spent a lot of time out there and our kids became very comfortable

00:25:52.260 being there they got to know other people we got to know people even people that you know

00:25:58.200 families that don't have kids and and a lot of empty nesters older people they've turned out to be

00:26:05.760 great assets as well for instance about five houses down there's a guy who is a you know a hangover of

00:26:13.440 the hippie generation he's still got really long hair he looks different kind of scary to some people

00:26:19.600 but actually we've gotten to know him he is a magician he's a wonderful magician he comes to our house

00:26:24.880 a couple times a year still uh for parties he's become a great asset and a lot of neighborhoods

00:26:30.000 have have people like that that they probably don't even know about so the two components are

00:26:35.240 changing the physical facilities and then also getting to know the uh the people in the neighborhood

00:26:41.560 very well and making our kids comfortable with them and getting to know the other kids who live in

00:26:45.140 the neighborhood yeah i think that second component is really important some people might hear like oh i'll

00:26:49.740 make my house a lot of fun but it's not like if you build it they will come right there there also

00:26:54.680 has a cultural change has to occur and that takes a lot of that'll take work and it might take months

00:26:59.840 might even take years for it to take root i i hate to say it it takes years but honestly we've had fun

00:27:06.040 every step of the way and and at this point our kids are very self-managing you know i won't lie

00:27:12.220 there's chaos in our yard quite often but there's hardly ever any real danger and uh our kids can

00:27:19.380 occupy themselves have fun on their own and they also go to other friends houses another component i

00:27:24.300 haven't even talked about is kids being independently mobile we're very big on bikes biking our kids do

00:27:30.400 not get driven to school at all or picked up from school at all they're right they ride their bikes

00:27:34.560 to and from school every day and they're very able as other kids in our neighborhood are very able to

00:27:39.860 go to other kids houses without us hovering over them well let's go to this part about you mentioned

00:27:45.100 that okay it sounds you were listing off all the things you did physically to change your house to

00:27:49.740 make it more inviting for play and you say that's a lot of resources but what i like about the book is

00:27:53.720 you also highlight other neighborhoods and other individuals who they are able to create a

00:27:58.040 neighborhood but maybe didn't have to do what you had to do but they're still able to do it with even

00:28:01.820 limited resources yeah well for instance um the book has a few chapters on other neighborhoods

00:28:07.700 and has a chapter on my neighborhood it also i also have a a two-page spread on an apartment complex

00:28:14.200 and that was actually very easy to write because you know the the apartments are the apartments

00:28:21.680 themselves are are small they don't have air conditioning a couple moms just decided you know 0.99

00:28:26.460 stay-at-home moms decided you know we're just going to put a chair out outside every day uh during the 1.00

00:28:32.060 summer and we're going to sit around and chat and the kids come out and the mothers really don't have 0.99

00:28:38.260 to do much at all they you know someone just bought a tv they put a cardboard box out the kids play with

00:28:42.940 a cardboard box all day you know they they bring out a bunch of a bunch of uh kitchen implements and

00:28:48.460 the kids are you know or have a play kitchen that they've created the amount of effort that parents

00:28:54.320 have to do to to get that play started depends on how much you have inside your house you know because

00:29:01.020 like i said like i said before what we're really trying to do is we're trying to get the neighborhood to

00:29:06.140 to to to be to compete with what the alternatives the kids have and so in a neighborhood where it's

00:29:13.180 just a there's just a courtyard in an apartment complex with small apartments and if they don't

00:29:18.000 have air conditioning especially it's it's very easy to get kids to go outside and play all day

00:29:23.260 there there are other neighborhoods in between my neighborhood which is a nice suburban neighborhood

00:29:28.020 and and that apartment complex very different examples from a really cool hipster neighborhood in

00:29:35.820 portland oregon a new urbanist community in alabama and a very low income street in the south

00:29:43.740 bronx which is generally considered to be one of the one of the most dangerous and and poorest places

00:29:49.260 in the united states that has an amazing play street that happens every day throughout the summer

00:29:55.000 and also in the book you highlight besides making a place a fun place for kids to hang out

00:29:59.960 in addition to that it's that cultural component just being outside all the time with your kids

00:30:04.940 planes okay other families see oh this is something that's normal we can do this too you also highlight

00:30:10.340 other things that families have done to promote that sense of cohesion like just it's like one-time

00:30:15.820 events it could be like a movie night or something like that yeah well i i so i i'm a bit i'm ambivalent

00:30:23.140 about about about the one-time events and let me explain i i think they can be really good and the big

00:30:28.320 thing that we do around here is we have these these block parties uh there's also uh you know uh some

00:30:34.740 neighborhoods will plan a play day for kids um some neighborhoods will will figure out a time just when

00:30:41.180 they can block off their street and it's not a block party but it's just a it's a well the different

00:30:48.360 ways to do that one neighborhood i know uh has done something like i've done they've done a neighborhood

00:30:53.060 summer camp for one week they do one week every every year and so these can be really really good

00:30:58.680 i think that the hesitation i have is that i would say that the event shouldn't be it's not the end

00:31:06.380 in itself it's it's a it what it does is it is it helps you create relationships and help you to start

00:31:15.620 changing culture but that's it just should be a catalyst and the the goal should be play every day

00:31:21.960 or on a regular basis at least a couple times a week and if kids are not in that habit then you

00:31:28.420 know they're going to have other habits they're going to the the big question i have is what do

00:31:33.160 kids choose to do when they have some free time in an afternoon what what does their mind go and i

00:31:39.640 want them to be in the habit of doing things on their own the events can be wonderful my favorite i

00:31:45.280 mentioned the last one i mentioned the neighborhood summer camp can really change the culture of a

00:31:49.800 neighborhood and the cool thing about it is it's it's old school it's just kids from the immediate

00:31:57.720 neighborhood getting together for every day for one week and having a blast the one that i write about

00:32:04.300 in in the book is a neighborhood where it's in palo alto california very close to where i am where

00:32:10.960 they've created a scheme of camp counselors from i think they call them junior counselors you know

00:32:17.460 counselors in training junior counselors senior counselors so they've got every you know throughout

00:32:22.760 the teens they've got all the kids with with different kinds of roles and they end up getting

00:32:27.320 the kids all from from four years old up to 17 and in this neighborhood a couple years i remember asking

00:32:34.900 them well one year i remember of 65 kids who live in that neighborhood they had 61 kids participate

00:32:42.780 and that's all the kids between four and 17 really to have that comprehensive participation means that

00:32:49.600 everybody gets to know each other and so when you're living your everyday life you see people you know you

00:32:55.100 see people you have a warm feeling for and that creates a habit of repeated relationships repeated

00:33:01.540 play dates and and get togethers all year so it's it's really a it's really an example of of a catalyst

00:33:08.580 that actually can have a lasting effect all year well here's another cultural problem that people

00:33:14.620 might run up to or they think exists so i think some people might be listening to this okay that

00:33:18.560 sounds great i'm gonna make my house awesome for kids to you know hang out and play but i'm worried

00:33:24.520 about getting sued if like a kid falls off the roof of a tree house is is that is that a legitimate

00:33:30.380 concern or do you think it's over overblown well i think it's a legitimate concern but i don't think

00:33:37.260 it's it's people should consider it a big enough concern to outweigh the benefit you know there's

00:33:43.140 a lot of legitimate concerns any every time you step in your car and turn on the you know turn on the

00:33:49.000 car and drive away you're decreasing your life expectancy driving is a very dangerous thing but

00:33:55.200 we do it every day because we've decided that the benefits of driving are worth the cost well it's the

00:34:01.280 same thing with inviting kids with a lot of fun play facilities even like a trampoline like we have

00:34:06.960 there's there's there's there's costs there's benefits to doing that i would say a few things

00:34:11.820 about that first of all you can try to mitigate the risks so one of the things we've done is we

00:34:16.360 have a ground level trampoline versus a above ground trampoline you can try to mitigate the risks

00:34:22.440 and you should do that but you can't eliminate risks completely you just can't there's going to be

00:34:28.920 risks in your yard another thing i'll say is that something remarkable happens if you have a real

00:34:35.520 neighborhood environment like we do where kids are coming over on a regular basis you find that that

00:34:41.180 and i this is sounds sarcastic but but everybody kind of thinks when they first have kids that kids

00:34:46.960 are crazy and all they want to do is dangerous things and hurt themselves kids actually don't want

00:34:54.280 to hurt themselves kids actually think about their personal safety if you give them enough time

00:35:00.860 with some situations that are potentially dangerous and they'll and they'll sort of push their limits a

00:35:08.960 little more every time and what you find in our in our yard is the kids become very good at taking risks

00:35:14.100 we have a trampoline and we have kids jumping on it every day here and we've had in 10 years

00:35:19.600 two accidents that required any sort of medical attention both of them were stitches a few stitches in the

00:35:26.360 lip or you know and you know on so elsewhere on the face that's i think a pretty remarkable record

00:35:32.760 given the amount of activity we've had on this trampoline uh but but kids become very good at it

00:35:37.860 and and and pretty much every kid who comes here who comes here for any length of time learns how to do

00:35:43.140 flips front flips back flips they also we also have a two-story playhouse right next to the trampoline

00:35:48.400 they're jumping 10 feet 12 feet down under the under the trampoline they're doing really crazy risky

00:35:53.020 things but they've learned how to take risks and by the way that's an important thing in life

00:35:58.120 because we want our kids to grow up and to try to get a raise to try to get to try to start a new

00:36:04.600 company we want them to take risks in their careers well they're learning how to do that in our yard and

00:36:10.240 they're and they're being very successful at it the last thing i'll say is about this the question of

00:36:16.320 of risk and and being sued is you know another thing we do is i try to get to know other parents

00:36:22.080 and i get to know pretty much all the parents of kids who come here so i think it's less likely

00:36:26.720 you know as i think it's you know becomes less likely because of that that they're going to try

00:36:30.660 to sue me we also you know we try to do things that to mitigate the risk of kids having bad accidents

00:36:36.920 with you know like an in-ground trampoline but we're not going to wipe it out completely so you end up

00:36:41.180 with some probability of of being sued let's compare that to the probability that my kids are

00:36:47.680 going to have a better life that they're going to have more fun that they're going to have a

00:36:50.320 wonderful childhood that's probably 50 60 70 i'll take those odds anytime the probability being sued

00:36:57.780 i don't know it's 0.1 0.01 i don't know what it is the probability of them having a better life

00:37:04.220 is 50 60 70 i'll take those odds anytime and that's what umbrella insurance is for probably right

00:37:09.800 um to be to be totally honest i just don't like the insurance industry i feel like

00:37:16.600 they they they have a way of getting out of of of paying up in a lot of circumstances

00:37:23.900 i don't know exactly what my insurance covers i have insurance i have umbrella insurance

00:37:28.340 but i'm not counting on it i'm just counting on you know i'm betting the odds that things are going

00:37:34.180 to work out and you know that's life i mean if if you're really that afraid you really shouldn't

00:37:39.020 be driving your car right right and speaking of that idea of risk i mean another reason my

00:37:43.680 kids aren't playing outside is that parents are afraid that their kids are going to get abducted

00:37:48.260 right we've had lenore skinese on the podcast to talk about this um and again that's like it's it's

00:37:53.520 like it's a it's overblown right it's not that big of a risk it's okay your kid is like more

00:37:58.480 likely to get struck by lightning than get abducted by a stranger yeah i mean lenore that's that's her

00:38:05.140 that's her shtick is is is breaking that down and breaking that that that fear down and and and 0.57

00:38:11.720 really uh getting people to to to not rate it so highly in their mind they definitely over rate the

00:38:21.420 possibility of that happening it's the probability is not zero the probability exists but it's really low

00:38:28.340 and i think what i think really honestly i think that the biggest problem is not that people are

00:38:35.580 fearful but that they actually don't they can't imagine that their kids could have so much fun

00:38:41.300 so uh what i found is is parents that have various hesitations they want their kids to be in

00:38:47.660 activities all the time or they want their they're afraid their kids are going to get abducted they bring

00:38:51.740 their kids over our yard and they're just amazed at the joy that kids have and and really playing

00:38:58.560 with abandon that they a lot of kids just don't have in their lives today and parents need to

00:39:03.240 experience that and i think i think that will really wither away the the hesitations that people have

00:39:09.200 that seem irrational so when i was a kid one of the things that we did was play capture the flag at

00:39:14.880 night and that involved you know it was like all the neighbor kids in the street and like we would be

00:39:19.760 hiding in neighbor neighbors you know garden beds on the side of their house in their backyard like

00:39:25.740 jumping over fences and like the parents didn't like no one cared because like all the parents

00:39:30.000 like those were those were their neighbor kids houses right yeah so there was a buy and the parents

00:39:34.040 didn't care i imagine that happened today like there'd be people on the next door app right

00:39:39.640 complaining about there's kids jumping my fence how do you my question i guess my question i'm going

00:39:45.260 in there with this like how do you get buy-in from neighbors who don't have kids right and it sounds

00:39:51.100 like it's not that big of a problem because you mentioned the magician guy is that a issue where

00:39:55.120 you know creating a neighborhood where you have neighbors who don't have kids they're just like

00:39:58.320 i don't want that it's too much ruckus too much noise well i'll say this so so so the generally

00:40:04.360 speaking about i want to make a comment about about the neighbor reaction so you know just like a lot

00:40:10.580 of things in life there's this there's kind of a bell curve distribution we have on the one end

00:40:14.320 people who are the least enthusiastic and the other end we have people who are the most enthusiastic

00:40:18.760 in the middle are people who you know they kind of like it they think it's pretty cool but it's not

00:40:23.080 going to you know it's not going to change their lives in any major measurable way but the the far

00:40:28.680 the first end of people who aren't enthusiastic for the most part they're not against us they're not

00:40:35.060 antagonistic to what we're doing it's that we just don't have any impact on our life at all

00:40:40.260 they would they just sort of they they blow by us they don't think about us we're just these weird

00:40:45.080 people who are doing something different we don't really upset them i do have one neighbor who an

00:40:50.800 older woman um and and who lives with her husband uh they're i guess in the early 70s i would say

00:40:56.980 she's a very nice person uh nice to talk to and she came up to me and she said she basically said

00:41:03.700 she doesn't think our kids should be playing on the street riding their bikes riding their scooters

00:41:08.740 and we live on a street that's very calm i've actually because i'm a geek about kids play and

00:41:15.660 i've written this book i i actually have spent time counting cars and you know ends up being about

00:41:22.980 one car every couple minutes which isn't bad you know one car every two minutes three minutes

00:41:28.520 something like that but she just thinks kids should not be on the street and i i i try to listen to her

00:41:37.760 and i said well i'll do this for you i will i or some other adult will be on the sidewalk

00:41:44.120 keeping an eye on our kids when they're in the street but i'm not going to tell our kids they

00:41:48.900 can't go on the street and and quite honestly i feel like the street is as much our kids as any car

00:41:55.320 that goes by it's it's all our it's it's everybody's property it's not the it's not the uh sole

00:42:01.720 domain of of any car that wants to pass by and she just she wasn't happy about that and we're not

00:42:07.500 real friendly these days you know i feel a bit bad about that but i'm just not going to give up

00:42:12.620 i'm not going to tell my kids they can't play in the street i think that it's uh if you really stop

00:42:17.540 and think about it why is it that you know that some people think that cars have total car

00:42:23.760 blanche do whatever they want on streets no matter what street it is you know if it's if it's an 0.98

00:42:27.560 interstate highway i get it but a street that gets a car every three or four minutes you know

00:42:33.300 i think kids have as much right to it as cars do yeah man if that was if i couldn't play in the

00:42:40.100 street when i was a kid like there'd be no street hockey there wouldn't have been any baseball games

00:42:43.840 because that's where we played yeah yeah the street and like it wasn't that big of a deal as soon as

00:42:47.880 the you know the car came you said game off like on wayne's world went to the side car passed and you

00:42:53.240 got and you went back to play it was not a big deal yeah yeah and and i'll tell you to be honest

00:42:57.500 some people neighbors might not like this but but um there was a my kids have on and off played

00:43:03.640 street hockey in the street in front of our house for for years and they're not doing it right now

00:43:08.140 but they'll probably they'll probably start this fall again there was a time we were playing a lot

00:43:12.380 and we put the goals right in the middle of the street and when a car would come i did not run

00:43:21.740 really fast to grab the goal i take my good old sweet time and i grabbed that goal and i nice and

00:43:28.840 easy walk you know pull that goal off to the side i made the made the driver know that you know this is

00:43:36.520 not a great street to pass through and and uh you know that's that's the kind of thing that my

00:43:42.480 my friends and i did we we didn't like cars passing through we felt we like you know we didn't feel

00:43:47.820 like we own the street but we felt like hey you know the this is this is our place and uh maybe

00:43:54.320 you might want to take another route the next time you you think about driving through a neighborhood

00:43:57.540 and to this point of you know having these difficult conversations like that's part of

00:44:01.020 being in a community oftentimes when people think about a community they always think of the happy

00:44:04.320 stuff like the the day camp that mom's put on and it's great but like the other part of being a

00:44:08.800 community is it takes work and it requires having those difficult conversations and it might mean

00:44:12.840 like you're not friendly with some people but it's something you got to do if you want to have that

00:44:17.340 that larger goal you're aiming for yeah yeah i'm it's obvious in life you don't you don't always

00:44:24.580 need to capitulate to someone else's demands i think it's important that you you listen to someone

00:44:29.480 you you try to you know meet them part way but you know i i have this fundamental belief that that

00:44:37.160 streets are not just for cars especially like i said streets where there's not a lot of traffic

00:44:42.500 and you know i'm very happy to say that that our kids feel totally comfortable in our yard in the

00:44:49.060 street going to other people's houses it's a place where it's their domain it's a place that they

00:44:54.580 could they feel very comfortable doing anything they want so mike i wonder if you have any advice

00:44:59.240 to say that there's one thing that someone can start doing today a parent who's listening to the

00:45:02.760 show that they can start making a playbook happen in their neck of the woods what would you say that

00:45:05.720 one thing could be like the step in action they can take right now well i i i like to use the

00:45:11.340 adage that is often attributed to to woody allen uh i think he i read that he said someone else said

00:45:19.200 it first but uh he's often quoted as saying 80 of life is showing up and there's there's different

00:45:25.180 ways to interpret that but the way i like to interpret it for this in this context is you know

00:45:29.940 show up in your neighborhood where do you show up as parents do you show up in front of the television

00:45:35.580 instead every day after dinner are you you know working after dinner uh going off into your study

00:45:41.720 if you show up in your neighborhood with your kids out front if you're walking and biking to nearby

00:45:50.120 places like the grocery store or or to the park rather than driving if you're showing up at neighbor's

00:45:56.320 houses knocking on the door chatting with them then kids your kids will will definitely get the sense that

00:46:02.280 that this is normal this is the this is a place that is is worthy of my parents attention and this

00:46:08.340 is worthy of my attention as well uh so i say show up in your neighborhood as often as you can

00:46:13.620 awesome well mike is there some place people can go to learn more about the book in your work

00:46:16.660 well there's the book uh playboyhood available on amazon.com the the website i haven't been blogging

00:46:23.500 for the past couple of years but there's a bunch of just there's a couple hundred blog articles

00:46:27.340 on playboyhood.com by the way there's well i guess it's not so easy to find but there's lots of

00:46:32.600 disciples of playboyhood lots of instances of people trying to create playboyhoods throughout

00:46:37.500 the united states and in the book there's examples of other neighborhoods we just touched on briefly

00:46:42.340 each of those is really fascinating in its own right for instance i mentioned this place in in

00:46:48.080 portland oregon called share it square and it's part of a city repair movement that's one of

00:46:53.240 many examples that are just fascinating for different ideas different approaches to how to

00:46:58.420 create a great place for play for kids awesome well mike lanza thanks for your time it's been a pleasure

00:47:03.280 thank you so much my guest name is mike lanza he's the author of the book playboyhood it's available

00:47:08.420 on amazon.com you can also find out more information about his work at his website

00:47:11.940 playboyhood.com also check out our show notes at aom.is slash playboyhood

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00:48:16.920 you

The Art of Manliness - August 07, 2019

#532： How to Create a Neighborhood Where Kids Play Outside

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