The Art of Manliness - #533： How to Be a Time Warrior

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. If you struggle

00:00:11.620 with procrastination, goal setting, and generally moving ahead in life, the heart of your struggles

00:00:15.660 may be your view of time. More specifically, that you look at it too linearly. That's the

00:00:19.960 argument my guest today makes. His name is Steve Chandler. He's a success and business coach and

00:00:23.880 the author of many books, including the focus of our discussion today, Time Warrior, How to Defeat

00:00:28.020 Procrastination, People-Pleasing, Self-Doubt, Overcommitment, Broken Promises, and Chaos.

00:00:32.740 At the beginning of our conversation, Steve shares how he personally overcame years of failure and

00:00:36.120 addiction to find a fulfilling life and career. He then explains why looking at time too linearly

00:00:40.560 can lead to putting things off to the future, overwhelm and overthinking, and perpetually

00:00:44.880 trying to find more information before moving on an idea. He argues that we're better served by

00:00:49.860 adopting the concept of non-linear time management, which pushes us to approach life with a bias

00:00:54.200 towards action, privilege the energy of want to over know-how, and act in the now. We then discuss

00:00:59.560 other tactics and mindsets you can adopt to become a time warrior, including being creative rather than

00:01:03.840 reactive, seeing life as a game, and serving people rather than pleasing them. We end our conversation

00:01:08.880 with what to do when you feel like you don't know what to do with your life. After the show's over,

00:01:12.460 check out our show notes at aom.is slash timewarrior. Steve joins me now via clearcast.io.

00:01:28.200 Steve Chandler, welcome to the show.

00:01:30.360 Thank you, Brett.

00:01:31.420 So you are a successful business coach, corporate trainer, success coach. But the backstory to how

00:01:38.940 you got to where you are now is interesting, because you've written about this throughout

00:01:42.460 several of your books. You're a late bloomer. This didn't happen till midlife. What was life

00:01:48.400 like for you before you figured out what you were supposed to do with your life?

00:01:52.640 You know, it's a rather tragic tale, and I don't want to leave your listeners depressed

00:02:01.600 by hearing about what my life was like, so I'll keep it short. You know, I went through all kinds of

00:02:08.160 confusion and failure. I was a bad student. I didn't have any ambition, didn't know what I wanted

00:02:15.400 to do. And I got into, went to college and flunked out and then went back and got into alcoholism and

00:02:25.980 drugs, bankruptcy, all kinds of things that were just stirring the pot of negative adventure and crisis

00:02:37.500 and this went on for decades. It went on until I finally got clean and sober when I was around 35 or

00:02:47.480 36. And then I had a blank slate because I didn't have anything I really wanted to do. There was no

00:02:55.420 calling. And I had major self-esteem issues. And so I was just at a loss. And at that point,

00:03:07.500 somebody gave me a book and said, why don't you read this book? And it was decades ago, but it was

00:03:15.600 by Napoleon Hill. And it was called The Master Key to Riches. Because one thing I did know was I had 0.95

00:03:23.120 no money and I had a lot of debts. And that had become my major negative adventure in life. So

00:03:30.760 I read that book. And for the first time in my life, I got a glimmer of hope.

00:03:38.040 And so things turned around after that.

00:03:41.600 What was it in the book that stood out to you that kind of gave you that hope?

00:03:46.220 There was something in there that called to me about creativity that somehow I got a feeling. I always

00:03:54.880 loved creating. I loved writing poetry and things like that. So I liked creating with words. That was

00:04:02.820 always a favorite thing of mine. I never thought I could make any money doing it. My degree from

00:04:09.140 college was in creative writing and poetry. So, you know, I'm not going to set up a poetry shop and make

00:04:17.960 a lot of money. So I didn't know what to do with that. But there was a sense in that book that

00:04:24.880 creativity can be applied anywhere. And that it can be applied to creating money if you wanted to.

00:04:33.880 If that was your issue or your desire, you could apply it anywhere. And this was a revelation to me.

00:04:40.760 I didn't think I thought I had all these different weaknesses and personality flaws, character flaws

00:04:48.180 that would never allow me to succeed at anything. So that was my first glimmer of hope.

00:04:56.520 And I imagine this turnaround didn't happen right away.

00:04:59.580 No, it happened in stages, which was good because, you know, I read a lot about people who have these

00:05:08.100 enlightenment moments. People like Byron Katie or Werner Earhart driving across the Golden Gate Bridge

00:05:16.320 and getting this flash of enlightenment on what he wants to do for the rest of his life. And then

00:05:23.280 I had this enlightenment envy, you know, like, oh, that'd be great if that happened.

00:05:29.720 But fortunately, it happened in stages. You know, one thing led to another. I got some,

00:05:36.180 I was reading books by Nathaniel Brandon in self-esteem because I knew at that time, or at least

00:05:43.780 thought that was my biggest issue. I had horrible self-esteem issues. So I read his books and I got so

00:05:53.280 excited by his books that I went out to see him in California and had some sessions and got connected.

00:06:01.440 And so one little thing led to another. And I got into coaching. I received coaching. I went to

00:06:10.240 landmark education, took classes. So little by little, I began to create who I wanted to be.

00:06:19.580 And little by little, I saw that was possible.

00:06:23.260 Well, let's talk about some of the ideas that you've been writing about and talking about

00:06:27.920 for the past couple of years. The first book I came across by you was Time Warrior. It's such a

00:06:32.780 great name. It's got this like samurai on there, the cover. And what I like about Time Warrior is

00:06:37.860 that it intersects with a lot of the other ideas you've written about. And also, I think this idea

00:06:42.980 of time management and people feel like that's an issue they're struggling with. But what's

00:06:47.900 interesting about Time Warrior is you advocate for something you call non-linear time management.

00:06:54.760 What is non-linear time management? That's kind of a weird concept because time we think of as a

00:07:00.400 linear thing.

00:07:01.920 Right. Yeah. It was created to be an attention-getting weird concept. But what I meant by it was

00:07:11.600 simply living in the inquiry of, can I do this right now? So most people, and especially me,

00:07:21.680 in many of the people, I would say most of the people I've coached or worked with,

00:07:26.400 when something comes up that they want to do or someone asked them to do, and they know they're

00:07:32.140 going to do it, the first impulse is, where am I going to put this in the future? Or when do I have

00:07:38.960 to do this? Or what's your deadline? You know, someone asks you for something and the first response

00:07:45.540 is, what's the deadline on that? When do I have to get it to you? So that I can put it out there

00:07:50.760 somewhere in my linear future. And pretty soon, this linear future, this list of things that I have

00:07:58.880 to get done, gets really heavy and it weighs on my mind. I wake up in the morning and I'm thinking,

00:08:06.420 oh my gosh, I've got overwhelmed. I've got so much to do. I should have awakened two hours earlier

00:08:12.760 to even get a start on it. So that's kind of the linear approach. The nonlinear approach

00:08:21.340 is something I learned observing some really powerful people in business watching the way

00:08:28.740 they worked. And I would bring something up like, maybe that company could be a customer of yours.

00:08:36.780 And I would watch this one business leader I admired. And he would say, I think you're right.

00:08:42.100 And he would grab the phone and call them. And I would think, man, that is a unusual and unusual

00:08:50.120 time management system he has. Or if I would say something about anything, he would say, well,

00:08:56.120 let's do it now. We're here. We're living in the now. Let's do it now.

00:09:01.160 And so that became something that was so counterintuitive for people that it looked

00:09:10.880 revolutionary to me. And I started doing it and I started helping other people do it.

00:09:16.100 Sometimes I'd be coaching somebody on the phone and they would say, I'm feeling so bad because I've

00:09:22.440 put this off so long and I need to write this letter of recommendation. And I would say, okay,

00:09:29.440 hang up the phone, write it now and call me back when you're ready to finish the coaching

00:09:33.640 conversation. And they would say, are you kidding me? What do you mean? I'm here to be coached by you.

00:09:40.800 And I said, no, I'm here to help you see that there are things you can do right now.

00:09:46.340 And that's nonlinear. You know, the now, this moment now is not linear. It's here, it's present.

00:09:56.020 It is eternal. And it's where everything great happens. In fact, I wrote a book later after Time

00:10:04.940 Warrior called Right Now. And it's a revolutionary portal to getting amazing things done. And it sounds

00:10:15.260 oversimplified. You know, it sounds ridiculous. Like, well, duh, people would say, what are your tips? 0.98

00:10:23.540 Like in Time Warrior, one guy asked me, and I put it in the book, what are your tips for dealing with

00:10:31.620 procrastination? And my answer is, here's what you do. Do what you're procrastinating on. Do it.

00:10:40.320 That's my tip. And that's what will work for you. And then once you do that a few times,

00:10:47.260 it creates a new neural pathway, what Napoleon Hill used to call cosmic habit force, which was

00:10:55.980 his weird fancy name for just a new habit. And the habit is, can I do this now? Someone sends you an

00:11:04.440 email and says, Brett, will you write the forward to my book? Now you have an option of saying, I wonder

00:11:12.300 if I can do that right now. I've got the book. I've read it. And most people don't even look at

00:11:19.920 that option. So that's what I mean. That's kind of a long answer to what is nonlinear time management.

00:11:28.080 It's utilization of the now.

00:11:31.680 Right. That's where the warrior metaphor comes in, because you allude to the works written by

00:11:35.100 Japanese sword warriors, what they've written about.

00:11:37.500 Yeah, that's right. And if they get attacked, they don't say to their assailant, could we fight

00:11:45.200 later?

00:11:46.500 Yeah. And so going to this idea of procrastination, it seems like your idea is that this traditional

00:11:52.800 approach of time management, where you put things in this linear order, that causes procrastination,

00:11:59.500 right? Because you have the ability to put it in the future and put it off, thinking that one day I'll

00:12:04.340 get to it. But then you just keep putting it off, putting it off once it comes up.

00:12:09.800 Yeah, yeah. It becomes a habit. After a while, it becomes really absurd. So someone comes up to you

00:12:16.180 and says, someone in your family says, can you give me a hug? And you say, how about later tonight,

00:12:22.840 I'll give you a hug. And you just say that automatically, because you've created the habit

00:12:29.140 of putting everything in your future. And the next thing you know is your future does not look

00:12:35.820 like some place you want to go.

00:12:38.420 Hey, what do you think is the source of putting stuff off? Like, why do people do that instead

00:12:42.440 of just doing the thing now? Like, what's going on there, you think?

00:12:45.860 I think people, after a while, do not have admiration for action. They don't value action.

00:12:57.060 They value thinking and trying to decide whether things are worthy of doing it. They value the

00:13:05.100 thinking part. So after a while, they don't value action like they did when they were kids.

00:13:10.720 One of the great things about your site is there are a lot of things, a lot of podcasts,

00:13:17.480 a lot of articles about action that can be taken on certain issues. Move your body and you'll be

00:13:25.500 healthier. And it's a very, what I would say, there's a lot of thoughtful material, but there's

00:13:32.140 also a real bias for action. We were designed to move and create. We weren't designed to

00:13:40.560 overthink everything.

00:13:43.600 So yeah, the action. And I think too, I've noticed this in my own life and then just

00:13:48.300 interacting with other people, readers, is that the thinking and creating the to-do list,

00:13:55.560 they're sort of like pseudo actions. It makes you feel like you're doing something,

00:13:59.760 but you're not actually doing anything.

00:14:02.600 Yeah, that's right. That's a good insight. I mean, it's better than nothing, right?

00:14:07.520 It's better to start putting things on my calendar or on my to-do list instead of trying to remember

00:14:16.960 them. That's better. It's a better step. It is a form of action, but you're right. It also is a form

00:14:24.620 of postponing action.

00:14:27.040 And then the other way that people postpone action, I've seen this in my own life, is that, okay,

00:14:30.840 you know what you want to do. You figure out what you want to do. But instead of just getting started,

00:14:35.300 you look for more information. And you've written a lot about this, this idea of know-how versus want to.

00:14:43.800 That's right. I don't know how to do this. And like, I need to reach this person in this company,

00:14:51.180 but I don't know how to get to him. And this, I don't know how to, becomes a habit. Like, I don't

00:14:59.020 know how to do it really well yet, so I'm not going to do it. Or I don't, or I don't even know

00:15:04.840 how to do it. Well, how to do things, it's not a mystery how to do anything. You can get it on the

00:15:13.500 internet. You can find coaches. You can get free tutorials on how to do anything. So the how-to

00:15:20.580 do is not missing. The desire to get into action is what's missing.

00:15:27.280 Yeah. And you gave this example, you're working with a client who was writing like screenplays.

00:15:32.720 And she was saying on the phone, I don't know who I need to talk to, to get these, you know,

00:15:36.300 to get these in the right hands. And you were like, well, I do. And she's like, oh, you do?

00:15:41.560 And like, how do you know? It's like, well, I'm just Googling it right now. And here's the thing

00:15:45.860 you got to go do. Yeah, that's it. And I found stuff and I Googled, what do I do with my screenplay?

00:15:52.640 Because that's what she was asking me. And then about five really great articles showed up

00:15:57.720 on here's what you can do. Here's the step you can take. Here's who to send it to first.

00:16:03.380 And she was just stunned, like, because it took her out of the world of, I don't know how to,

00:16:10.280 which is where she began to inhabit that world by habit. That was just a habitual,

00:16:18.080 like our brain has these neural, neuronal, or however you say it, pathways that get developed

00:16:26.980 and they become automatic.

00:16:29.560 Yeah. I get asked a lot about like, how do you start a podcast? How should I get started

00:16:32.840 with the podcast? And I'm just like, well, you just get started. And then you figure out the,

00:16:37.420 like, I think what people are really looking for, they're looking for like, how can I start a podcast

00:16:41.460 that will be successful right away? And like, that's not going to happen. But like, you just

00:16:47.120 get started and then you start figuring stuff out as you go.

00:16:50.880 That's right. That's exactly it. And surprisingly, or maybe not, most people don't know that. Even

00:16:59.100 so-called successful entrepreneurs and business leaders, they don't realize that. They'll say,

00:17:06.220 how do I have a better relationship with my business partner? And I'll say, bring them in

00:17:12.700 the room. Let's go. And he'll look shocked like, Oh, wait, I'm not ready. I don't know how to talk to

00:17:17.780 him. I don't know what the right script would be. I haven't told you what our issues are. So it's

00:17:24.480 everywhere. And it's the, it's what gets between a person's creative desire to create something,

00:17:32.420 a relationship, a book, a podcast, what stands between them and their very healthy, creative

00:17:41.240 desire is the, I don't have enough information yet. I don't know how to do it perfectly. I don't

00:17:48.560 know how to do it right. Or even I don't know how to do it.

00:17:52.440 And I think this probably comes from like school, right? Being on public education. Cause I feel like

00:17:56.660 when you grow up in America, at least there's like a treadmill you get on, right? You, these boxes,

00:18:00.620 you're supposed to check, right? You go to get your college degree or your high school degree,

00:18:04.760 check your college degree, check. And then people, they want to take part in a creative activity,

00:18:10.700 whether it's started a business or, you know, become a novelist and they're looking for the

00:18:16.060 checkbox, but there isn't a checkbox and they have to start figuring things. And that's, that's a hard

00:18:21.300 transition to make. That is, you're right. And you're right. We get conditioned and habituated to

00:18:30.360 giving way too much value to information and no value to transformation, to change inside of me.

00:18:40.960 And so it's all, I need more information.

00:18:43.660 Well, and how do you make that transition from, you know, from knowing to transformation,

00:18:50.400 from information to transformation?

00:18:53.040 I think the, the first step is waking up to the distinction between the two to, to realizing that

00:19:04.000 there's a big difference between information. Like I can watch videos on how to swim.

00:19:12.160 How do I move my arm in the water? How do I cut my hands? How do I kick my legs? And I can watch

00:19:20.800 those and I can read books on how to learn to swim. And I can, and I can keep feeling I don't have

00:19:28.660 enough information yet because I'm not ready to go into the water, but transformation occurs

00:19:35.040 from jumping into the water.

00:19:38.240 Well, that's a very Aristotelian idea. Aristotle had something, a quote along the lines,

00:19:41.900 that you become a carpenter, not by reading about carpentry, but by actually doing carpenter

00:19:47.260 things. And then you become a carpenter by doing those things.

00:19:51.540 And the reading about it is fine too. I don't want to set that aside because a lot of my greatest

00:19:58.900 breakthroughs have come from reading other people's books. But the question is, are you going

00:20:06.820 to incorporate what you've read? In one of my groups that I run, we have a saying called

00:20:15.580 once for information, twice for transformation. So if you get a book you love that really moved you

00:20:23.940 or inspired you, why would you not read it a second time? And this time go through and read it even

00:20:33.240 more slowly. And this time I'm reading for transformation. I'm reading to have it drop

00:20:39.780 into my system. So it becomes a part of how I operate instead of just great new information I've

00:20:48.180 just read. And I was inspired by it. But three weeks later, I forgot all about it and I'm looking

00:20:53.940 for a new book. Yeah, you can get on that treadmill where you keep reading and more and more and stuff

00:21:00.820 like, this will be the book that will change my life. But if you never actually take that stuff and

00:21:06.300 put it into action, it's not going to do anything. Yeah, it's kind of like Bruce Lee's

00:21:12.000 observation. He said, I don't fear the guy who has learned 100 kicks. I fear the guy who's learned

00:21:19.960 one and worked on it, just worked on his one. That's the opponent I fear. We're going to take

00:21:27.240 a quick break for your word from our sponsors. And now back to the show. Okay, so just to clarify,

00:21:32.860 you're not saying that looking for information is bad. The trick is to take that and take action on

00:21:38.380 it as soon as you can. That's right. That's it. What can I use? If I'm reading for a better

00:21:45.680 spiritual life or a better physical life, more strength, more flexibility, I can read people's

00:21:54.540 books about it. But I want to move it into my system to my operating system. That's when a book

00:22:02.020 really becomes powerful. And another reason that people put things off that you write about is that

00:22:07.940 the project they want to do just seems so big, right? It's like, well, start a podcast or start

00:22:13.480 a business. And they're like, well, man, that's just a big thing. I'm just going to put that off to

00:22:18.880 the side, maybe look for more information. But you say you need to be a warrior and just like cut that

00:22:24.400 into little small pieces and then just take the next action. That's right. What's the next

00:22:29.360 smallest action I can take in that direction? So if I get the idea, I'm going to start a podcast,

00:22:38.020 what's my next action if I'm going to do that? Well, it might be Google, how do you create a really

00:22:45.780 well attended podcast? How do you create a successful podcast? And you know, we'll find it there.

00:22:53.620 There'll be a lot of different opinions, but you'll find the opinion that calls to you. So that's next

00:22:59.760 step. Now, once you're there, you want to know what's my next small step. And so you just go from

00:23:07.640 small step to small step. And by before you know it, you've got a great podcast, but you didn't think

00:23:14.800 of it like this has to be great. It has to reach thousands of people for me to be okay. And I don't

00:23:21.980 know how to do that. So I'm, I'm not going to start until I have enough information.

00:23:28.040 And this can also, you can, this cutting things into small pieces, like alleviates a lot of anxiety

00:23:32.300 about problems you might encounter. Like take debt, for example, that's something that a lot of people

00:23:36.640 struggle with. And it causes a lot, a lot of anxiety because it's probably this huge number

00:23:40.440 that they're thinking about at, you know, in bed before they fall asleep. But once you just decide,

00:23:46.400 okay, what's one thing I can do tomorrow, first thing in the morning that will take me towards

00:23:51.140 paying off this debt. Well, then it becomes much more manageable and you feel less anxious.

00:23:56.820 Yes, that's right. That's it. Exactly. So let's say I owe this organization X amount of money and I'm

00:24:04.640 scared about them and I don't know how to, what to do about it. I can't come up with all that money.

00:24:09.980 Well, one small step is to communicate and get into a relationship and say, listen, I acknowledge I owe

00:24:19.160 you this money. I want to promise you that it's my full intention to pay it. Here's what I can pay

00:24:25.400 you right now. And that's a step in the right direction. And anyone can take that step, no matter

00:24:32.680 how big the debt is, you can take that step. And that step feels good. It's like, okay, I am now active

00:24:42.100 in the project of dealing with my debt. I'm taking action.

00:24:47.780 And then once you take that action, the interesting thing about action is it acts as a flywheel,

00:24:52.060 right? Like it builds momentum. So you've taken that one step there and then it motivates you

00:24:59.120 to take more action later on.

00:25:00.700 That's right. Like I don't feel like going for a run today, right? But I'm going to put

00:25:06.260 on my shoes and put on my running shoes. I'm going to go out the door. I'm going to start

00:25:12.720 my run. That's all I have to do. And I might start running real slow. But after a while,

00:25:19.300 like you say, the flywheel starts to activate and the momentum inside you starts to build and

00:25:27.100 you don't have to force it. And next thing you know, you're, you're flying down the road,

00:25:32.140 really enjoying your run. And you're thinking, what was I thinking? Why was I so resistant

00:25:37.520 to this run? Well, that's giving too much value to my thinking and not enough value to doesn't

00:25:45.760 matter what I was thinking. When I want to run, I'll just go out and run.

00:25:50.020 And the other thing too, that you make a point of is that it's one of the issues is like you have

00:25:54.280 these big problems or big projects that you're wanting to accomplish. And there's this tendency

00:25:59.380 to think, okay, I'll take an action, but it's got to be a big action, but it doesn't have to be

00:26:04.020 right. Like it can be like super, super like, don't, don't denigrate small steps because you do

00:26:11.040 that every day. You're going to make progress. Yes, absolutely. So I want to repair a relationship.

00:26:19.000 So I might bring her a flower and say, this is for you. I wanted you to have it. I want this

00:26:29.480 relationship to be better. I'll do what it takes. I'm a work in progress. That's just anyone can do

00:26:35.340 that. That's a step in the right direction that hasn't repaired the whole relationship. Like I'm

00:26:43.300 thinking I have to do. And that's the problem with this overthinking that we've gotten into in our

00:26:49.920 society is we overthink everything so much. It's very hard to decide what to do next. And we end up

00:27:00.280 doing nothing or distracting ourselves on Netflix until we feel like doing something.

00:27:07.740 I want to go back to this idea of, of problems that come up in life. Something you've written

00:27:12.500 about is that whenever you encounter a problem, the first thing you need to do is capture it.

00:27:16.900 What do you mean by that?

00:27:18.300 Well, not be afraid of it, not see it as scarier than it is. So I want to capture it for what it is

00:27:28.380 and put it in front of me. What's really here? What really needs to be done? Now, given this situation,

00:27:34.460 what needs to happen. And that has captured the problem, put it in front of me and allowed me to

00:27:42.820 look it right in the eye and allow myself to say, okay, I see what it is. Now I'm going to ask what

00:27:49.680 needs to be done. And that way, the problem no longer lingers in the back of my mind. Most people

00:27:57.940 have their problems lingering in the back of their mind. Like I don't want to go there.

00:28:02.880 I don't want to think about that.

00:28:05.420 And so this would involve, I mean, this would be as simple as just writing the problem down. And I

00:28:09.280 think the interesting thing too, is you might figure as you write it down that the problem that

00:28:12.480 you thought was a problem is not really the problem.

00:28:15.100 Yeah. Yeah. That often happens. And the more I look at it, the more I begin return to my own power.

00:28:22.800 So I had a coach once who changed my relationship to problems because he would never say, if I brought

00:28:34.420 a problem in to him and he was coaching me on my business, he would never say, oh gee, this is a real

00:28:42.540 problem. How do we solve it with all the focus on the problem? Like the problem had all the power.

00:28:48.480 He would say, okay, given this situation, which I declare to be neutral, not horrifying, not scary.

00:28:58.020 I'm not going to label it. It's neutral. It is what it is. Given this situation, what would you like

00:29:04.180 to create? And that was a completely different orientation to me because it would return me to my

00:29:11.500 own creativity and show me that that was always the solution.

00:29:16.220 Well, it sounds like that sort of paradigm shift gets you out of a reactive mode to a proactive mode.

00:29:23.380 That's right. It does. It opens your mind. It opens your access to divine intuition, creativity. If you put it

00:29:35.240 in a religious context, it returns you to spirit, it allows divine intervention to occur.

00:29:46.440 It opens your mind to better solutions because now in a lighthearted, open way, you're seeing more

00:29:53.780 possibilities. But the more I have labeled my problem as really serious, really awful, really bad,

00:30:03.340 really unfair to me, this is really a terrible thing. Like, for example, I have some people who

00:30:11.100 I've worked with, who are getting divorced. And the first thing they say is this is going to be a

00:30:18.220 really, this is going to be a typical bitter divorce. This is going to be difficult for me, for my

00:30:24.580 wife, for my kids, for my kids. I know this is going to be horrible. Or there are even something simple

00:30:31.560 like we're going to move to another state. And I know making a move is inherently stressful. It's one

00:30:41.020 of the great stressors in the world. So if I enter that adventure of moving, which is neutral,

00:30:49.420 it's just something to be done. And I've already labeled it as stressful, overwhelming,

00:30:57.680 a terrible hassle to go through. And then I talk to other people and they say, Oh, man,

00:31:04.260 you've got a divorce coming up. I've been through one of those. Oh, man, you moving. Oh, man, all the

00:31:10.100 boxes and all the negotiation. I don't envy you. And people get support for their victim status.

00:31:19.960 And now they approach it like a victim. So if I'm thinking of myself as a victim,

00:31:28.260 and I'm approaching something that needs to be done, my energy will be low, my mood will be low,

00:31:36.160 and my creativity will be non-existent. My imagination will not be there. My spirit will be low. So how

00:31:44.400 efficient, how effective am I going to be?

00:31:49.000 Well, another mind trick, I don't want to call it a mind trick, another shift you can make to a

00:31:54.200 problem or a different way to approach a problem that's more positive is you talk about this in

00:31:58.220 Crazy Good, your book, to think of it as a game.

00:32:00.880 Absolutely. It's a game. So I can make a game out of anything. I used to work

00:32:06.900 in factories. And I had a friend there, we were working, making these little parts for the

00:32:14.720 automotive industry. And so just for the fun of it, because we were young, and we were still in

00:32:21.540 touch with our playful spirits. We hadn't talked ourselves out of those while growing up, like most

00:32:29.420 people do. We would make a game of it and say, okay, I'll race you. I'll see how many pieces I can

00:32:36.940 make by the top of the hour, and you see how many you can make. And we made a game of it, and it was

00:32:42.200 really fun. So you can make a game of anything, because that's just a viewpoint you take.

00:32:49.620 Yeah, we had a podcast guest a while back ago named Ian Bogost. He is a media studies professor,

00:32:55.340 philosopher, kind of talks about video games. But he talked about this idea of turning problems

00:33:00.520 into games. And the example he gave to me, I know that was really interesting, because it's a boring

00:33:04.540 thing. He had an issue in his neighborhood, and I think he had to go to the zoning committee and go

00:33:09.740 to the city council meetings, which is really boring and tedious. But instead of approaching that

00:33:15.400 way, it's like, oh, this is just a game. These are little things I got to do. And it actually made

00:33:20.740 the process more pleasant. Because instead of seeing these things, these processes he had to

00:33:26.020 go through as tedious red tape, he thought of, well, this is just like I'm playing a video game,

00:33:30.660 and I got to do these things to get to beat the big boss.

00:33:34.100 Yeah, that's great. That returns him to his innate creativity and to his innate playful spirit

00:33:45.920 that he was born into. But most people talk themselves out of that. And they do it by

00:33:56.080 labeling everything before it even occurs. You know, they don't even have a conversation

00:34:01.200 with somebody. They label them. Oh, that person is a toxic white male. That's the label I'm going to

00:34:12.440 put on him based on what I read that he just wrote. So that's all I have to think about.

00:34:18.160 And so that guy's an idiot. He's evil. He's dangerous. So there's no dialogue. There's no 1.00

00:34:24.300 way to create a good agreement with things that you've labeled already.

00:34:31.000 So another thing you talk about in the book is this idea, can we talk about overwhelm? And the way

00:34:37.040 you overcome overwhelm is you just cut things into small pieces and just start taking action.

00:34:42.460 But this is the other idea that people who practice linear time management is like, I'm getting behind

00:34:47.400 on stuff, or this is a bottleneck. How does a time warrior view getting behind on tasks or even failing

00:34:55.560 or bottlenecks? Well, I can only do what's in front of me at the moment. And so if I'm behind

00:35:06.040 on something I've promised, that's good information. I want to realize that. So I want to change my game

00:35:14.140 so I can catch up. But I don't want to just live in the repeated thought I'm behind. My life is a race 0.54

00:35:23.360 against time. If I take a vacation, this happens to a lot of men in business. People recommend you need

00:35:33.200 more balance. You're burning yourself out. You're too focused on your business. Your relationships

00:35:40.640 are not going well because of that. Your health is not good. And so they recommend take a vacation,

00:35:49.460 sit by the beach. And they think when they get by the beach, they think I'm behind. Every day I'm at

00:35:55.680 the beach, I'm falling further behind. So in their mind, it's a linear race against time.

00:36:03.520 I've got to get to some place in the future to be okay. And it just becomes habitual thought pattern.

00:36:12.000 People think they're behind on things they're not behind on. They're doing a podcast and they,

00:36:18.420 I only have 2000 subscribers. And so I'm way behind what Brett has done. Well, yeah,

00:36:27.520 but you're way ahead of where you were six months ago. So this labeling I'm behind is optional.

00:36:36.280 Well, and I think another thing too is a lot of things we think we're behind on those tasks,

00:36:41.160 like we actually don't need to do them. Like we just think we need to do them, but we don't need to do

00:36:45.500 them. That really happens a lot when men in business, especially in a smaller business where

00:36:53.980 they just simply don't delegate. They think only I know how to do this really well. And so they think

00:37:00.280 they've got all these things to do when in reality, there are many things they don't have to do that

00:37:07.480 they think they have to do. Or there are many things that if they gave them to someone else,

00:37:12.960 if they ask for help, do you mind doing this? Could you do this for me? I really trust you

00:37:19.560 to do a good job on this. Would you mind doing it? Can you do this? All of a sudden they've

00:37:25.800 delegated everything and they're just sitting there and it's like, Oh my God, I never knew I

00:37:29.800 could do this. Yeah. I have a friend who he's a small business owner and something he does every

00:37:35.000 now and then is for a week, he'll just like not do anything because then he'll see like the stuff

00:37:41.660 that he thought was important. Like actually, if he doesn't do it, it doesn't, nothing doesn't hurt

00:37:46.140 anything. Um, and then he actually discovers that, okay, I can actually, I don't have to spend that

00:37:51.020 much time on that stuff, but here are other things that I can focus my time on that will actually

00:37:55.820 provide more return on investment. Yeah, that's great. That's a great example.

00:38:01.420 So another thing you talk about in the book that causes a lot of people overwhelm is this idea of

00:38:07.100 pleasing people. And I know that we've had guests on the podcast who've talked about people

00:38:10.520 pleasing. It's an issue. Like what, how do you, what's your take on overcoming that, that tendency

00:38:16.580 to, to please others and how does pleasing others get in the way of getting, you know, accomplishing

00:38:22.900 what we, what we really want to accomplish? Well, if I'm old, it's kind of like being back in high

00:38:29.020 school and thinking being popular is really important. Even if I'm not popular with everybody,

00:38:36.700 if I'm popular with whatever little group or click I want to identify with. And so I end up

00:38:43.360 trying to please people by how I talk to them. I flatter them. I try to get them to be a friend

00:38:49.880 of mine. And so my whole life becomes about trying to please people and get them to like me. But what

00:38:57.900 I'm leaving out of the equation is something much more powerful and that is serving people.

00:39:04.280 Well, and, and actually, um, instead of wanting to be liked by absolutely everybody serving the

00:39:12.580 people that I am committed to serving and allowing myself to be respected for the service I create for

00:39:21.720 people in the world. So part of really, really succeeding in a powerful way in this society

00:39:30.600 is to drop away all this desire to be liked and to be approved of and all that and, and change the

00:39:39.760 focus to what would really serve this person, what would really help the person. And I want to stay

00:39:46.760 focused on things like that. So what would be an example of a situation where you're pleasing

00:39:52.480 someone, but you're not serving them, or at least in, in pleasing one individual, you're not serving

00:39:57.640 other people and the bigger purpose you're trying to accomplish, which that individual is a part of.

00:40:02.760 Well, so there was a leader that I was working with and he was allowing people to show up late

00:40:11.740 for his meeting. And the other people in the meeting would roll their eyes like, Oh my gosh,

00:40:17.580 these people are dragging in late, but he was afraid to not have these people like him.

00:40:23.960 So he would just say, Oh, come on, can't you try a little harder? Or this meeting started at eight.

00:40:30.820 You knew that, right? Okay. Okay. Hey, I didn't mean to get on your case. You've, and, and so he would

00:40:37.180 just be, uh, trying to please everybody had an open door policy. So he wasn't getting anything

00:40:44.140 important done because people were coming in his office and saying, Hey, can you help me with that?

00:40:49.840 Or can I share some thoughts with you? Or can I run something past you? And he would always say,

00:40:54.780 Oh yeah, sure. Oh yeah. Okay. And then at the end of the day, he found out that the really three

00:41:01.500 really important things, uh, he never got to. So he began to learn to say no. And he put a little

00:41:10.380 sign on his door that would say occupied or something like that, or do not disturb. And he

00:41:16.840 would have two or three silent hours where he was working on the important things. And then he would

00:41:22.700 open his door or he would say, if you have something to talk to me about, let me know. And we'll meet at a

00:41:28.720 certain time. There was another leader I was working with and he would answer every single email as it

00:41:36.080 came in or anybody who posted anything. And he thought I have to please these people. And, and then

00:41:44.020 he would lose his whole day and he'd have to stay late to do the important things. But he, he felt like

00:41:50.600 I can't afford not to please everybody. But what he woke up to was he, he developed a policy that said,

00:41:58.220 I don't look at my emails until four o'clock each day. So if you have some emergency, something you

00:42:08.040 really absolutely need my attention on, come see me or call me. Otherwise just know that your email

00:42:18.640 won't even be looked at until four. And that's the way I'm going to operate. And people were fine with

00:42:24.300 that. They, they thought, Oh, okay. That's how he works. I'm going to send him an email. And I

00:42:29.860 realized he's not going to answer it right away. So those little things where we think we have to

00:42:38.720 please everybody with every little thing, uh, has us be dishonest, has us end up resenting these people.

00:42:47.280 Someone says, will you go to the ballet with me? And I say, Oh, okay. And then I hate the ballet and I

00:42:56.580 hate going and I resent the person and I feel like I'm falling behind instead of saying, I really don't

00:43:03.680 like the ballet. No, I, there was an example. Um, it's a novelist. I can't, I think it's Neil

00:43:09.720 Stevenson. He's a sci-fi writer, but he, he wrote this thing about social media. He doesn't really,

00:43:14.460 he's not really active on social media because, because he says, if I were to do that, like I,

00:43:21.060 it takes away time from the thing that I'm really good at, which serves people like white people 1.00

00:43:24.900 like follow me in the first place, like write novels. So like, he doesn't, he has like, he doesn't,

00:43:31.060 he has a very light social media presence, but like, there's a lot of people who are creative types.

00:43:35.560 They feel like they have to be there on social media all the time, talking with their readers and

00:43:39.560 promoting stuff, but like, that's time that they could be spent writing their next book.

00:43:44.820 That's right. Yeah. And nothing wrong with it. If you've, if you've made that clear choice and you've

00:43:51.640 said, this is what I really want to do. I love being on social media. I really enjoy interacting with my

00:43:59.620 readers. Then, then that's fine that some, some writers and public figures are really good at that.

00:44:08.920 They enjoy it. And it's a conscious choice, but the most people think, I think that's what I'm

00:44:16.120 supposed to do. Or I think that's part of being an author is you have to do that. And so they're

00:44:24.080 doing all these things they think they should do. And they're missing the element of choice

00:44:31.200 that's available to them. All right. So be intentional about your actions, your choices.

00:44:37.460 Yeah. What is your, what's the role of goals in non-linear time management? Because the thing

00:44:44.160 about goals is that they tie you to the future, but do you still think goals are a useful tool?

00:44:50.060 They can be. Now, if they, if they don't serve me, if I put a big goal on my wall,

00:44:59.480 I'm going to make a million dollars next year. And every time I look at the goal, I think, oh man,

00:45:07.100 that's, that's so unattainable. That's not me. I have no idea how I'm going to do that.

00:45:12.760 That I get discouraged when I look at that goal. Then that goal is not serving me. Goals are

00:45:21.600 something you and I create to serve us. So if a goal serves me, like I want to have five conversations

00:45:33.180 tomorrow. And that goal serves me. Because if I put that down and I put five boxes down and I check

00:45:42.100 them and I get my five conversations, that goal served me, served what I'm up to. So if a goal

00:45:51.760 is of service, like a GPS inside you, I want to make sure I make a certain amount of money,

00:45:58.960 or I want to make sure I talk to my, my mother who's in a nursing home. I want to make sure

00:46:06.520 I talk to her every week. So I put a goal. I'm going to talk to her every week. That's my goal.

00:46:12.840 That goal serves me. It doesn't oppress me or make me dread the future. So, so make sure if a goal is

00:46:22.020 not serving you. If it's not a, a really nice GPS that keeps you on your path, or it's not something

00:46:30.760 that inspires you and says, Oh yeah, I'm going to be an Olympic gold medalist. And every time I see

00:46:37.300 the gold medal I've put on my wall, I get inspired. Then goals are fine. They're acts of creation

00:46:45.120 that can be very inspiring, but they're not necessary. They're not like, I need, Oh, I don't

00:46:52.220 have any goals. There's something wrong with me. I need to set goals. Not necessarily.

00:46:58.100 Well, this leads nicely to my next question, which is this. So a time warrior, the way you've been

00:47:02.820 describing, like he knows what he wants to do and then he does it, right? So he doesn't let know-how

00:47:09.460 or the lack of know-how get in the way. He just starts taking action, but you have to know what you want

00:47:14.520 to do. So like, what if you, what if you don't know what you want to do with your life? Like maybe

00:47:19.080 someone's like you, right? After you sobered up, you didn't know what you wanted to do. How did you

00:47:24.160 figure that out? Well, the answer is to choose. So let's say you're sitting in a restaurant and the

00:47:33.940 waiter comes by. Do you know what you want? No, I don't know yet. Can you give me a few minutes?

00:47:42.460 Now, would I sit there all night saying I still don't know what I want and starve to death?

00:47:49.680 Eventually I would choose. So let's say I don't know what to do as a profession.

00:47:56.280 I'm going to choose something and go there and see how that is. So the fact that I don't know what

00:48:04.420 to do doesn't mean I can't choose and get into action. I never had this thing where I want to

00:48:12.880 be a coach. I want to be a corporate trainer. I want to be an author. I never had that.

00:48:19.160 It was just next choice, next choice.

00:48:23.220 Yeah, that's a good, I think that's good advice, particularly for young people who are out of

00:48:28.160 college. They're trying to figure out what they want to do. Like, I get a lot of questions about

00:48:32.000 things. I don't know what to do. Well, I'm just like, do something. Just because you do that one

00:48:35.480 thing doesn't mean you have to stick with that forever, right? You can do other stuff after that,

00:48:40.500 but you got to get started doing something. Yeah, that's right. Choose something from the menu

00:48:45.800 and see how that goes. And from there, you'll be able to see more clearly. I've had clients who chose

00:48:55.560 the law school. I'm going to be a lawyer. My parents really want me to be and I don't know

00:49:00.960 what else to do. So they go to law school. And first year of law school, they realize I really

00:49:09.960 don't want to do this. I really understand this. Now, I understand what's required. But there's

00:49:16.100 something else from here that I see that I'd rather be doing. I'm going to go do that.

00:49:21.620 Now, that might not be the perfect thing, but that's better than law school. And then that

00:49:29.000 can show them something else. And so just choose and get into action. Get something going for

00:49:37.160 yourself. Choose the thing that looks best for now. And don't have it be, is this the right path

00:49:44.560 for me or the wrong? Have it be seems to work for me right now. Have that be an okay,

00:49:50.860 category? Seems to work for me right now. Well, that's my exact story. I went to law school because

00:49:57.660 that seemed like a good career path. But during my first year of law school, I realized I didn't

00:50:02.120 want to be a lawyer, but I wasn't sure what else to do. So I stuck with it. And it was during this

00:50:06.840 time that I started the art of manliness as a hobby, but that wasn't a job option yet. It wouldn't

00:50:11.820 be viable option until I graduated. So in the meantime, I remained 100% committed to my studies,

00:50:17.720 trying to get the best grades, doing internships. Like you said, I just did what seemed like the

00:50:22.280 best option at the time until other possibilities emerged. So what that does is, okay, not only does

00:50:29.180 doing something, it's going to open up other paths. You're going to start seeing stuff as you

00:50:33.340 take that action, but also creates that habit of just taking action and doing something instead of

00:50:39.020 just, you know, being just paralyzed by indecision.

00:50:44.040 Yeah, that's right. It does. It starts to develop that habit. So Michael Jordan,

00:50:50.160 if you asked him in high school, what does he always want to be? He wanted to be a baseball player.

00:50:57.160 That was his dream. I want to play baseball. Turned out he was very good at basketball.

00:51:03.080 And so he followed that. This seems to be working for me at the time. And then later in his life,

00:51:11.560 he went back and tried to do his dream of baseball, but just go with what's available.

00:51:18.340 You know, if I'm sitting in a restaurant and I'm in a Mexican restaurant and I want some kind of fancy

00:51:24.980 French meal, it's not on the menu. I've got to go with what's there at the time.

00:51:32.000 And so look at your options, make a choice, get into action. And don't fall prey to these people,

00:51:43.040 these motivators and dream merchants who say it's really important that you have a big,

00:51:50.600 big dream and you live your dream and that you find the perfect profession,

00:51:55.340 the perfect calling for you and you go pursue it. That ends up with a lot of heartbreak and stress

00:52:04.940 because that's just so not necessary.

00:52:08.320 Well, Steve, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about your work?

00:52:12.620 Stevechandler.com. Everything's there.

00:52:15.360 Everything's there. Well, Steve Chandler, thanks so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:52:17.780 Stevechandler.com. Thank you, Brett.

00:52:20.140 My guest name is Steve Chandler. He is the author of the book, Time Warrior. It's available on

00:52:23.540 Amazon.com. You can find out more information about his work at his website, stevechandler.com.

00:52:28.080 Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash timewarrior, where you find links to resources

00:52:32.660 where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:52:41.140 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. Check out our website at

00:52:44.740 artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles that

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00:53:17.700 Until next time, this is Brett McKay, reminding you not only to listen to the AOM podcast,

00:53:21.000 but put what you've heard into action.

The Art of Manliness - August 12, 2019

#533： How to Be a Time Warrior

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