#533： How to Be a Time Warrior
Episode Stats
Summary
If you struggle with procrastination, goal setting, and generally moving ahead in life, the heart of your struggles may be your view of time. More specifically, that you look at it too linearly. That's the argument my guest today makes. Steve Chandler, a success and business coach and author of many books, argues that we re better served by adopting the concept of non-linear time management, which pushes us to approach life with a bias towards action, privilege the energy of want to over-know-how, and act in the now.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. If you struggle
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with procrastination, goal setting, and generally moving ahead in life, the heart of your struggles
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may be your view of time. More specifically, that you look at it too linearly. That's the
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argument my guest today makes. His name is Steve Chandler. He's a success and business coach and
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the author of many books, including the focus of our discussion today, Time Warrior, How to Defeat
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Procrastination, People-Pleasing, Self-Doubt, Overcommitment, Broken Promises, and Chaos.
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At the beginning of our conversation, Steve shares how he personally overcame years of failure and
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addiction to find a fulfilling life and career. He then explains why looking at time too linearly
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can lead to putting things off to the future, overwhelm and overthinking, and perpetually
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trying to find more information before moving on an idea. He argues that we're better served by
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adopting the concept of non-linear time management, which pushes us to approach life with a bias
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towards action, privilege the energy of want to over know-how, and act in the now. We then discuss
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other tactics and mindsets you can adopt to become a time warrior, including being creative rather than
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reactive, seeing life as a game, and serving people rather than pleasing them. We end our conversation
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with what to do when you feel like you don't know what to do with your life. After the show's over,
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check out our show notes at aom.is slash timewarrior. Steve joins me now via clearcast.io.
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So you are a successful business coach, corporate trainer, success coach. But the backstory to how
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you got to where you are now is interesting, because you've written about this throughout
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several of your books. You're a late bloomer. This didn't happen till midlife. What was life
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like for you before you figured out what you were supposed to do with your life?
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You know, it's a rather tragic tale, and I don't want to leave your listeners depressed
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by hearing about what my life was like, so I'll keep it short. You know, I went through all kinds of
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confusion and failure. I was a bad student. I didn't have any ambition, didn't know what I wanted
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to do. And I got into, went to college and flunked out and then went back and got into alcoholism and
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drugs, bankruptcy, all kinds of things that were just stirring the pot of negative adventure and crisis
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and this went on for decades. It went on until I finally got clean and sober when I was around 35 or
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36. And then I had a blank slate because I didn't have anything I really wanted to do. There was no
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calling. And I had major self-esteem issues. And so I was just at a loss. And at that point,
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somebody gave me a book and said, why don't you read this book? And it was decades ago, but it was
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by Napoleon Hill. And it was called The Master Key to Riches. Because one thing I did know was I had
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no money and I had a lot of debts. And that had become my major negative adventure in life. So
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I read that book. And for the first time in my life, I got a glimmer of hope.
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What was it in the book that stood out to you that kind of gave you that hope?
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There was something in there that called to me about creativity that somehow I got a feeling. I always
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loved creating. I loved writing poetry and things like that. So I liked creating with words. That was
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always a favorite thing of mine. I never thought I could make any money doing it. My degree from
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college was in creative writing and poetry. So, you know, I'm not going to set up a poetry shop and make
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a lot of money. So I didn't know what to do with that. But there was a sense in that book that
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creativity can be applied anywhere. And that it can be applied to creating money if you wanted to.
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If that was your issue or your desire, you could apply it anywhere. And this was a revelation to me.
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I didn't think I thought I had all these different weaknesses and personality flaws, character flaws
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that would never allow me to succeed at anything. So that was my first glimmer of hope.
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And I imagine this turnaround didn't happen right away.
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No, it happened in stages, which was good because, you know, I read a lot about people who have these
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enlightenment moments. People like Byron Katie or Werner Earhart driving across the Golden Gate Bridge
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and getting this flash of enlightenment on what he wants to do for the rest of his life. And then
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I had this enlightenment envy, you know, like, oh, that'd be great if that happened.
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But fortunately, it happened in stages. You know, one thing led to another. I got some,
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I was reading books by Nathaniel Brandon in self-esteem because I knew at that time, or at least
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thought that was my biggest issue. I had horrible self-esteem issues. So I read his books and I got so
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excited by his books that I went out to see him in California and had some sessions and got connected.
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And so one little thing led to another. And I got into coaching. I received coaching. I went to
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landmark education, took classes. So little by little, I began to create who I wanted to be.
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Well, let's talk about some of the ideas that you've been writing about and talking about
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for the past couple of years. The first book I came across by you was Time Warrior. It's such a
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great name. It's got this like samurai on there, the cover. And what I like about Time Warrior is
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that it intersects with a lot of the other ideas you've written about. And also, I think this idea
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of time management and people feel like that's an issue they're struggling with. But what's
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interesting about Time Warrior is you advocate for something you call non-linear time management.
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What is non-linear time management? That's kind of a weird concept because time we think of as a
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Right. Yeah. It was created to be an attention-getting weird concept. But what I meant by it was
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simply living in the inquiry of, can I do this right now? So most people, and especially me,
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in many of the people, I would say most of the people I've coached or worked with,
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when something comes up that they want to do or someone asked them to do, and they know they're
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going to do it, the first impulse is, where am I going to put this in the future? Or when do I have
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to do this? Or what's your deadline? You know, someone asks you for something and the first response
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is, what's the deadline on that? When do I have to get it to you? So that I can put it out there
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somewhere in my linear future. And pretty soon, this linear future, this list of things that I have
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to get done, gets really heavy and it weighs on my mind. I wake up in the morning and I'm thinking,
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oh my gosh, I've got overwhelmed. I've got so much to do. I should have awakened two hours earlier
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to even get a start on it. So that's kind of the linear approach. The nonlinear approach
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is something I learned observing some really powerful people in business watching the way
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they worked. And I would bring something up like, maybe that company could be a customer of yours.
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And I would watch this one business leader I admired. And he would say, I think you're right.
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And he would grab the phone and call them. And I would think, man, that is a unusual and unusual
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time management system he has. Or if I would say something about anything, he would say, well,
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let's do it now. We're here. We're living in the now. Let's do it now.
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And so that became something that was so counterintuitive for people that it looked
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revolutionary to me. And I started doing it and I started helping other people do it.
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Sometimes I'd be coaching somebody on the phone and they would say, I'm feeling so bad because I've
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put this off so long and I need to write this letter of recommendation. And I would say, okay,
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hang up the phone, write it now and call me back when you're ready to finish the coaching
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conversation. And they would say, are you kidding me? What do you mean? I'm here to be coached by you.
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And I said, no, I'm here to help you see that there are things you can do right now.
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And that's nonlinear. You know, the now, this moment now is not linear. It's here, it's present.
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It is eternal. And it's where everything great happens. In fact, I wrote a book later after Time
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Warrior called Right Now. And it's a revolutionary portal to getting amazing things done. And it sounds
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oversimplified. You know, it sounds ridiculous. Like, well, duh, people would say, what are your tips?
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Like in Time Warrior, one guy asked me, and I put it in the book, what are your tips for dealing with
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procrastination? And my answer is, here's what you do. Do what you're procrastinating on. Do it.
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That's my tip. And that's what will work for you. And then once you do that a few times,
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it creates a new neural pathway, what Napoleon Hill used to call cosmic habit force, which was
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his weird fancy name for just a new habit. And the habit is, can I do this now? Someone sends you an
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email and says, Brett, will you write the forward to my book? Now you have an option of saying, I wonder
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if I can do that right now. I've got the book. I've read it. And most people don't even look at
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that option. So that's what I mean. That's kind of a long answer to what is nonlinear time management.
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Right. That's where the warrior metaphor comes in, because you allude to the works written by
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Japanese sword warriors, what they've written about.
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Yeah, that's right. And if they get attacked, they don't say to their assailant, could we fight
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Yeah. And so going to this idea of procrastination, it seems like your idea is that this traditional
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approach of time management, where you put things in this linear order, that causes procrastination,
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right? Because you have the ability to put it in the future and put it off, thinking that one day I'll
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get to it. But then you just keep putting it off, putting it off once it comes up.
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Yeah, yeah. It becomes a habit. After a while, it becomes really absurd. So someone comes up to you
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and says, someone in your family says, can you give me a hug? And you say, how about later tonight,
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I'll give you a hug. And you just say that automatically, because you've created the habit
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of putting everything in your future. And the next thing you know is your future does not look
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Hey, what do you think is the source of putting stuff off? Like, why do people do that instead
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of just doing the thing now? Like, what's going on there, you think?
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I think people, after a while, do not have admiration for action. They don't value action.
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They value thinking and trying to decide whether things are worthy of doing it. They value the
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thinking part. So after a while, they don't value action like they did when they were kids.
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One of the great things about your site is there are a lot of things, a lot of podcasts,
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a lot of articles about action that can be taken on certain issues. Move your body and you'll be
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healthier. And it's a very, what I would say, there's a lot of thoughtful material, but there's
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also a real bias for action. We were designed to move and create. We weren't designed to
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So yeah, the action. And I think too, I've noticed this in my own life and then just
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interacting with other people, readers, is that the thinking and creating the to-do list,
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they're sort of like pseudo actions. It makes you feel like you're doing something,
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Yeah, that's right. That's a good insight. I mean, it's better than nothing, right?
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It's better to start putting things on my calendar or on my to-do list instead of trying to remember
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them. That's better. It's a better step. It is a form of action, but you're right. It also is a form
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And then the other way that people postpone action, I've seen this in my own life, is that, okay,
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you know what you want to do. You figure out what you want to do. But instead of just getting started,
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you look for more information. And you've written a lot about this, this idea of know-how versus want to.
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That's right. I don't know how to do this. And like, I need to reach this person in this company,
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but I don't know how to get to him. And this, I don't know how to, becomes a habit. Like, I don't
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know how to do it really well yet, so I'm not going to do it. Or I don't, or I don't even know
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how to do it. Well, how to do things, it's not a mystery how to do anything. You can get it on the
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internet. You can find coaches. You can get free tutorials on how to do anything. So the how-to
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do is not missing. The desire to get into action is what's missing.
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Yeah. And you gave this example, you're working with a client who was writing like screenplays.
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And she was saying on the phone, I don't know who I need to talk to, to get these, you know,
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to get these in the right hands. And you were like, well, I do. And she's like, oh, you do?
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And like, how do you know? It's like, well, I'm just Googling it right now. And here's the thing
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you got to go do. Yeah, that's it. And I found stuff and I Googled, what do I do with my screenplay?
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Because that's what she was asking me. And then about five really great articles showed up
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on here's what you can do. Here's the step you can take. Here's who to send it to first.
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And she was just stunned, like, because it took her out of the world of, I don't know how to,
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which is where she began to inhabit that world by habit. That was just a habitual,
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like our brain has these neural, neuronal, or however you say it, pathways that get developed
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Yeah. I get asked a lot about like, how do you start a podcast? How should I get started
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with the podcast? And I'm just like, well, you just get started. And then you figure out the,
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like, I think what people are really looking for, they're looking for like, how can I start a podcast
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that will be successful right away? And like, that's not going to happen. But like, you just
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get started and then you start figuring stuff out as you go.
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That's right. That's exactly it. And surprisingly, or maybe not, most people don't know that. Even
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so-called successful entrepreneurs and business leaders, they don't realize that. They'll say,
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how do I have a better relationship with my business partner? And I'll say, bring them in
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the room. Let's go. And he'll look shocked like, Oh, wait, I'm not ready. I don't know how to talk to
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him. I don't know what the right script would be. I haven't told you what our issues are. So it's
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everywhere. And it's the, it's what gets between a person's creative desire to create something,
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a relationship, a book, a podcast, what stands between them and their very healthy, creative
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desire is the, I don't have enough information yet. I don't know how to do it perfectly. I don't
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know how to do it right. Or even I don't know how to do it.
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And I think this probably comes from like school, right? Being on public education. Cause I feel like
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when you grow up in America, at least there's like a treadmill you get on, right? You, these boxes,
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you're supposed to check, right? You go to get your college degree or your high school degree,
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check your college degree, check. And then people, they want to take part in a creative activity,
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whether it's started a business or, you know, become a novelist and they're looking for the
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checkbox, but there isn't a checkbox and they have to start figuring things. And that's, that's a hard
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transition to make. That is, you're right. And you're right. We get conditioned and habituated to
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giving way too much value to information and no value to transformation, to change inside of me.
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Well, and how do you make that transition from, you know, from knowing to transformation,
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I think the, the first step is waking up to the distinction between the two to, to realizing that
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there's a big difference between information. Like I can watch videos on how to swim.
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How do I move my arm in the water? How do I cut my hands? How do I kick my legs? And I can watch
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those and I can read books on how to learn to swim. And I can, and I can keep feeling I don't have
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enough information yet because I'm not ready to go into the water, but transformation occurs
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Well, that's a very Aristotelian idea. Aristotle had something, a quote along the lines,
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that you become a carpenter, not by reading about carpentry, but by actually doing carpenter
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things. And then you become a carpenter by doing those things.
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And the reading about it is fine too. I don't want to set that aside because a lot of my greatest
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breakthroughs have come from reading other people's books. But the question is, are you going
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to incorporate what you've read? In one of my groups that I run, we have a saying called
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once for information, twice for transformation. So if you get a book you love that really moved you
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or inspired you, why would you not read it a second time? And this time go through and read it even
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more slowly. And this time I'm reading for transformation. I'm reading to have it drop
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into my system. So it becomes a part of how I operate instead of just great new information I've
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just read. And I was inspired by it. But three weeks later, I forgot all about it and I'm looking
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for a new book. Yeah, you can get on that treadmill where you keep reading and more and more and stuff
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like, this will be the book that will change my life. But if you never actually take that stuff and
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put it into action, it's not going to do anything. Yeah, it's kind of like Bruce Lee's
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observation. He said, I don't fear the guy who has learned 100 kicks. I fear the guy who's learned
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one and worked on it, just worked on his one. That's the opponent I fear. We're going to take
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a quick break for your word from our sponsors. And now back to the show. Okay, so just to clarify,
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you're not saying that looking for information is bad. The trick is to take that and take action on
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it as soon as you can. That's right. That's it. What can I use? If I'm reading for a better
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spiritual life or a better physical life, more strength, more flexibility, I can read people's
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books about it. But I want to move it into my system to my operating system. That's when a book
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really becomes powerful. And another reason that people put things off that you write about is that
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the project they want to do just seems so big, right? It's like, well, start a podcast or start
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a business. And they're like, well, man, that's just a big thing. I'm just going to put that off to
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the side, maybe look for more information. But you say you need to be a warrior and just like cut that
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into little small pieces and then just take the next action. That's right. What's the next
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smallest action I can take in that direction? So if I get the idea, I'm going to start a podcast,
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what's my next action if I'm going to do that? Well, it might be Google, how do you create a really
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well attended podcast? How do you create a successful podcast? And you know, we'll find it there.
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There'll be a lot of different opinions, but you'll find the opinion that calls to you. So that's next
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step. Now, once you're there, you want to know what's my next small step. And so you just go from
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small step to small step. And by before you know it, you've got a great podcast, but you didn't think
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of it like this has to be great. It has to reach thousands of people for me to be okay. And I don't
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know how to do that. So I'm, I'm not going to start until I have enough information.
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And this can also, you can, this cutting things into small pieces, like alleviates a lot of anxiety
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about problems you might encounter. Like take debt, for example, that's something that a lot of people
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struggle with. And it causes a lot, a lot of anxiety because it's probably this huge number
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that they're thinking about at, you know, in bed before they fall asleep. But once you just decide,
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okay, what's one thing I can do tomorrow, first thing in the morning that will take me towards
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paying off this debt. Well, then it becomes much more manageable and you feel less anxious.
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Yes, that's right. That's it. Exactly. So let's say I owe this organization X amount of money and I'm
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scared about them and I don't know how to, what to do about it. I can't come up with all that money.
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Well, one small step is to communicate and get into a relationship and say, listen, I acknowledge I owe
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you this money. I want to promise you that it's my full intention to pay it. Here's what I can pay
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you right now. And that's a step in the right direction. And anyone can take that step, no matter
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how big the debt is, you can take that step. And that step feels good. It's like, okay, I am now active
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in the project of dealing with my debt. I'm taking action.
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And then once you take that action, the interesting thing about action is it acts as a flywheel,
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right? Like it builds momentum. So you've taken that one step there and then it motivates you
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That's right. Like I don't feel like going for a run today, right? But I'm going to put
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on my shoes and put on my running shoes. I'm going to go out the door. I'm going to start
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my run. That's all I have to do. And I might start running real slow. But after a while,
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like you say, the flywheel starts to activate and the momentum inside you starts to build and
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you don't have to force it. And next thing you know, you're, you're flying down the road,
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really enjoying your run. And you're thinking, what was I thinking? Why was I so resistant
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to this run? Well, that's giving too much value to my thinking and not enough value to doesn't
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matter what I was thinking. When I want to run, I'll just go out and run.
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And the other thing too, that you make a point of is that it's one of the issues is like you have
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these big problems or big projects that you're wanting to accomplish. And there's this tendency
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to think, okay, I'll take an action, but it's got to be a big action, but it doesn't have to be
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right. Like it can be like super, super like, don't, don't denigrate small steps because you do
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that every day. You're going to make progress. Yes, absolutely. So I want to repair a relationship.
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So I might bring her a flower and say, this is for you. I wanted you to have it. I want this
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relationship to be better. I'll do what it takes. I'm a work in progress. That's just anyone can do
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that. That's a step in the right direction that hasn't repaired the whole relationship. Like I'm
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thinking I have to do. And that's the problem with this overthinking that we've gotten into in our
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society is we overthink everything so much. It's very hard to decide what to do next. And we end up
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doing nothing or distracting ourselves on Netflix until we feel like doing something.
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I want to go back to this idea of, of problems that come up in life. Something you've written
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about is that whenever you encounter a problem, the first thing you need to do is capture it.
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Well, not be afraid of it, not see it as scarier than it is. So I want to capture it for what it is
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and put it in front of me. What's really here? What really needs to be done? Now, given this situation,
00:27:34.460
what needs to happen. And that has captured the problem, put it in front of me and allowed me to
00:27:42.820
look it right in the eye and allow myself to say, okay, I see what it is. Now I'm going to ask what
00:27:49.680
needs to be done. And that way, the problem no longer lingers in the back of my mind. Most people
00:27:57.940
have their problems lingering in the back of their mind. Like I don't want to go there.
00:28:05.420
And so this would involve, I mean, this would be as simple as just writing the problem down. And I
00:28:09.280
think the interesting thing too, is you might figure as you write it down that the problem that
00:28:12.480
you thought was a problem is not really the problem.
00:28:15.100
Yeah. Yeah. That often happens. And the more I look at it, the more I begin return to my own power.
00:28:22.800
So I had a coach once who changed my relationship to problems because he would never say, if I brought
00:28:34.420
a problem in to him and he was coaching me on my business, he would never say, oh gee, this is a real
00:28:42.540
problem. How do we solve it with all the focus on the problem? Like the problem had all the power.
00:28:48.480
He would say, okay, given this situation, which I declare to be neutral, not horrifying, not scary.
00:28:58.020
I'm not going to label it. It's neutral. It is what it is. Given this situation, what would you like
00:29:04.180
to create? And that was a completely different orientation to me because it would return me to my
00:29:11.500
own creativity and show me that that was always the solution.
00:29:16.220
Well, it sounds like that sort of paradigm shift gets you out of a reactive mode to a proactive mode.
00:29:23.380
That's right. It does. It opens your mind. It opens your access to divine intuition, creativity. If you put it
00:29:35.240
in a religious context, it returns you to spirit, it allows divine intervention to occur.
00:29:46.440
It opens your mind to better solutions because now in a lighthearted, open way, you're seeing more
00:29:53.780
possibilities. But the more I have labeled my problem as really serious, really awful, really bad,
00:30:03.340
really unfair to me, this is really a terrible thing. Like, for example, I have some people who
00:30:11.100
I've worked with, who are getting divorced. And the first thing they say is this is going to be a
00:30:18.220
really, this is going to be a typical bitter divorce. This is going to be difficult for me, for my
00:30:24.580
wife, for my kids, for my kids. I know this is going to be horrible. Or there are even something simple
00:30:31.560
like we're going to move to another state. And I know making a move is inherently stressful. It's one
00:30:41.020
of the great stressors in the world. So if I enter that adventure of moving, which is neutral,
00:30:49.420
it's just something to be done. And I've already labeled it as stressful, overwhelming,
00:30:57.680
a terrible hassle to go through. And then I talk to other people and they say, Oh, man,
00:31:04.260
you've got a divorce coming up. I've been through one of those. Oh, man, you moving. Oh, man, all the
00:31:10.100
boxes and all the negotiation. I don't envy you. And people get support for their victim status.
00:31:19.960
And now they approach it like a victim. So if I'm thinking of myself as a victim,
00:31:28.260
and I'm approaching something that needs to be done, my energy will be low, my mood will be low,
00:31:36.160
and my creativity will be non-existent. My imagination will not be there. My spirit will be low. So how
00:31:49.000
Well, another mind trick, I don't want to call it a mind trick, another shift you can make to a
00:31:54.200
problem or a different way to approach a problem that's more positive is you talk about this in
00:31:58.220
Crazy Good, your book, to think of it as a game.
00:32:00.880
Absolutely. It's a game. So I can make a game out of anything. I used to work
00:32:06.900
in factories. And I had a friend there, we were working, making these little parts for the
00:32:14.720
automotive industry. And so just for the fun of it, because we were young, and we were still in
00:32:21.540
touch with our playful spirits. We hadn't talked ourselves out of those while growing up, like most
00:32:29.420
people do. We would make a game of it and say, okay, I'll race you. I'll see how many pieces I can
00:32:36.940
make by the top of the hour, and you see how many you can make. And we made a game of it, and it was
00:32:42.200
really fun. So you can make a game of anything, because that's just a viewpoint you take.
00:32:49.620
Yeah, we had a podcast guest a while back ago named Ian Bogost. He is a media studies professor,
00:32:55.340
philosopher, kind of talks about video games. But he talked about this idea of turning problems
00:33:00.520
into games. And the example he gave to me, I know that was really interesting, because it's a boring
00:33:04.540
thing. He had an issue in his neighborhood, and I think he had to go to the zoning committee and go
00:33:09.740
to the city council meetings, which is really boring and tedious. But instead of approaching that
00:33:15.400
way, it's like, oh, this is just a game. These are little things I got to do. And it actually made
00:33:20.740
the process more pleasant. Because instead of seeing these things, these processes he had to
00:33:26.020
go through as tedious red tape, he thought of, well, this is just like I'm playing a video game,
00:33:30.660
and I got to do these things to get to beat the big boss.
00:33:34.100
Yeah, that's great. That returns him to his innate creativity and to his innate playful spirit
00:33:45.920
that he was born into. But most people talk themselves out of that. And they do it by
00:33:56.080
labeling everything before it even occurs. You know, they don't even have a conversation
00:34:01.200
with somebody. They label them. Oh, that person is a toxic white male. That's the label I'm going to
00:34:12.440
put on him based on what I read that he just wrote. So that's all I have to think about.
00:34:18.160
And so that guy's an idiot. He's evil. He's dangerous. So there's no dialogue. There's no
00:34:24.300
way to create a good agreement with things that you've labeled already.
00:34:31.000
So another thing you talk about in the book is this idea, can we talk about overwhelm? And the way
00:34:37.040
you overcome overwhelm is you just cut things into small pieces and just start taking action.
00:34:42.460
But this is the other idea that people who practice linear time management is like, I'm getting behind
00:34:47.400
on stuff, or this is a bottleneck. How does a time warrior view getting behind on tasks or even failing
00:34:55.560
or bottlenecks? Well, I can only do what's in front of me at the moment. And so if I'm behind
00:35:06.040
on something I've promised, that's good information. I want to realize that. So I want to change my game
00:35:14.140
so I can catch up. But I don't want to just live in the repeated thought I'm behind. My life is a race
00:35:23.360
against time. If I take a vacation, this happens to a lot of men in business. People recommend you need
00:35:33.200
more balance. You're burning yourself out. You're too focused on your business. Your relationships
00:35:40.640
are not going well because of that. Your health is not good. And so they recommend take a vacation,
00:35:49.460
sit by the beach. And they think when they get by the beach, they think I'm behind. Every day I'm at
00:35:55.680
the beach, I'm falling further behind. So in their mind, it's a linear race against time.
00:36:03.520
I've got to get to some place in the future to be okay. And it just becomes habitual thought pattern.
00:36:12.000
People think they're behind on things they're not behind on. They're doing a podcast and they,
00:36:18.420
I only have 2000 subscribers. And so I'm way behind what Brett has done. Well, yeah,
00:36:27.520
but you're way ahead of where you were six months ago. So this labeling I'm behind is optional.
00:36:36.280
Well, and I think another thing too is a lot of things we think we're behind on those tasks,
00:36:41.160
like we actually don't need to do them. Like we just think we need to do them, but we don't need to do
00:36:45.500
them. That really happens a lot when men in business, especially in a smaller business where
00:36:53.980
they just simply don't delegate. They think only I know how to do this really well. And so they think
00:37:00.280
they've got all these things to do when in reality, there are many things they don't have to do that
00:37:07.480
they think they have to do. Or there are many things that if they gave them to someone else,
00:37:12.960
if they ask for help, do you mind doing this? Could you do this for me? I really trust you
00:37:19.560
to do a good job on this. Would you mind doing it? Can you do this? All of a sudden they've
00:37:25.800
delegated everything and they're just sitting there and it's like, Oh my God, I never knew I
00:37:29.800
could do this. Yeah. I have a friend who he's a small business owner and something he does every
00:37:35.000
now and then is for a week, he'll just like not do anything because then he'll see like the stuff
00:37:41.660
that he thought was important. Like actually, if he doesn't do it, it doesn't, nothing doesn't hurt
00:37:46.140
anything. Um, and then he actually discovers that, okay, I can actually, I don't have to spend that
00:37:51.020
much time on that stuff, but here are other things that I can focus my time on that will actually
00:37:55.820
provide more return on investment. Yeah, that's great. That's a great example.
00:38:01.420
So another thing you talk about in the book that causes a lot of people overwhelm is this idea of
00:38:07.100
pleasing people. And I know that we've had guests on the podcast who've talked about people
00:38:10.520
pleasing. It's an issue. Like what, how do you, what's your take on overcoming that, that tendency
00:38:16.580
to, to please others and how does pleasing others get in the way of getting, you know, accomplishing
00:38:22.900
what we, what we really want to accomplish? Well, if I'm old, it's kind of like being back in high
00:38:29.020
school and thinking being popular is really important. Even if I'm not popular with everybody,
00:38:36.700
if I'm popular with whatever little group or click I want to identify with. And so I end up
00:38:43.360
trying to please people by how I talk to them. I flatter them. I try to get them to be a friend
00:38:49.880
of mine. And so my whole life becomes about trying to please people and get them to like me. But what
00:38:57.900
I'm leaving out of the equation is something much more powerful and that is serving people.
00:39:04.280
Well, and, and actually, um, instead of wanting to be liked by absolutely everybody serving the
00:39:12.580
people that I am committed to serving and allowing myself to be respected for the service I create for
00:39:21.720
people in the world. So part of really, really succeeding in a powerful way in this society
00:39:30.600
is to drop away all this desire to be liked and to be approved of and all that and, and change the
00:39:39.760
focus to what would really serve this person, what would really help the person. And I want to stay
00:39:46.760
focused on things like that. So what would be an example of a situation where you're pleasing
00:39:52.480
someone, but you're not serving them, or at least in, in pleasing one individual, you're not serving
00:39:57.640
other people and the bigger purpose you're trying to accomplish, which that individual is a part of.
00:40:02.760
Well, so there was a leader that I was working with and he was allowing people to show up late
00:40:11.740
for his meeting. And the other people in the meeting would roll their eyes like, Oh my gosh,
00:40:17.580
these people are dragging in late, but he was afraid to not have these people like him.
00:40:23.960
So he would just say, Oh, come on, can't you try a little harder? Or this meeting started at eight.
00:40:30.820
You knew that, right? Okay. Okay. Hey, I didn't mean to get on your case. You've, and, and so he would
00:40:37.180
just be, uh, trying to please everybody had an open door policy. So he wasn't getting anything
00:40:44.140
important done because people were coming in his office and saying, Hey, can you help me with that?
00:40:49.840
Or can I share some thoughts with you? Or can I run something past you? And he would always say,
00:40:54.780
Oh yeah, sure. Oh yeah. Okay. And then at the end of the day, he found out that the really three
00:41:01.500
really important things, uh, he never got to. So he began to learn to say no. And he put a little
00:41:10.380
sign on his door that would say occupied or something like that, or do not disturb. And he
00:41:16.840
would have two or three silent hours where he was working on the important things. And then he would
00:41:22.700
open his door or he would say, if you have something to talk to me about, let me know. And we'll meet at a
00:41:28.720
certain time. There was another leader I was working with and he would answer every single email as it
00:41:36.080
came in or anybody who posted anything. And he thought I have to please these people. And, and then
00:41:44.020
he would lose his whole day and he'd have to stay late to do the important things. But he, he felt like
00:41:50.600
I can't afford not to please everybody. But what he woke up to was he, he developed a policy that said,
00:41:58.220
I don't look at my emails until four o'clock each day. So if you have some emergency, something you
00:42:08.040
really absolutely need my attention on, come see me or call me. Otherwise just know that your email
00:42:18.640
won't even be looked at until four. And that's the way I'm going to operate. And people were fine with
00:42:24.300
that. They, they thought, Oh, okay. That's how he works. I'm going to send him an email. And I
00:42:29.860
realized he's not going to answer it right away. So those little things where we think we have to
00:42:38.720
please everybody with every little thing, uh, has us be dishonest, has us end up resenting these people.
00:42:47.280
Someone says, will you go to the ballet with me? And I say, Oh, okay. And then I hate the ballet and I
00:42:56.580
hate going and I resent the person and I feel like I'm falling behind instead of saying, I really don't
00:43:03.680
like the ballet. No, I, there was an example. Um, it's a novelist. I can't, I think it's Neil
00:43:09.720
Stevenson. He's a sci-fi writer, but he, he wrote this thing about social media. He doesn't really,
00:43:14.460
he's not really active on social media because, because he says, if I were to do that, like I,
00:43:21.060
it takes away time from the thing that I'm really good at, which serves people like white people
00:43:24.900
like follow me in the first place, like write novels. So like, he doesn't, he has like, he doesn't,
00:43:31.060
he has a very light social media presence, but like, there's a lot of people who are creative types.
00:43:35.560
They feel like they have to be there on social media all the time, talking with their readers and
00:43:39.560
promoting stuff, but like, that's time that they could be spent writing their next book.
00:43:44.820
That's right. Yeah. And nothing wrong with it. If you've, if you've made that clear choice and you've
00:43:51.640
said, this is what I really want to do. I love being on social media. I really enjoy interacting with my
00:43:59.620
readers. Then, then that's fine that some, some writers and public figures are really good at that.
00:44:08.920
They enjoy it. And it's a conscious choice, but the most people think, I think that's what I'm
00:44:16.120
supposed to do. Or I think that's part of being an author is you have to do that. And so they're
00:44:24.080
doing all these things they think they should do. And they're missing the element of choice
00:44:31.200
that's available to them. All right. So be intentional about your actions, your choices.
00:44:37.460
Yeah. What is your, what's the role of goals in non-linear time management? Because the thing
00:44:44.160
about goals is that they tie you to the future, but do you still think goals are a useful tool?
00:44:50.060
They can be. Now, if they, if they don't serve me, if I put a big goal on my wall,
00:44:59.480
I'm going to make a million dollars next year. And every time I look at the goal, I think, oh man,
00:45:07.100
that's, that's so unattainable. That's not me. I have no idea how I'm going to do that.
00:45:12.760
That I get discouraged when I look at that goal. Then that goal is not serving me. Goals are
00:45:21.600
something you and I create to serve us. So if a goal serves me, like I want to have five conversations
00:45:33.180
tomorrow. And that goal serves me. Because if I put that down and I put five boxes down and I check
00:45:42.100
them and I get my five conversations, that goal served me, served what I'm up to. So if a goal
00:45:51.760
is of service, like a GPS inside you, I want to make sure I make a certain amount of money,
00:45:58.960
or I want to make sure I talk to my, my mother who's in a nursing home. I want to make sure
00:46:06.520
I talk to her every week. So I put a goal. I'm going to talk to her every week. That's my goal.
00:46:12.840
That goal serves me. It doesn't oppress me or make me dread the future. So, so make sure if a goal is
00:46:22.020
not serving you. If it's not a, a really nice GPS that keeps you on your path, or it's not something
00:46:30.760
that inspires you and says, Oh yeah, I'm going to be an Olympic gold medalist. And every time I see
00:46:37.300
the gold medal I've put on my wall, I get inspired. Then goals are fine. They're acts of creation
00:46:45.120
that can be very inspiring, but they're not necessary. They're not like, I need, Oh, I don't
00:46:52.220
have any goals. There's something wrong with me. I need to set goals. Not necessarily.
00:46:58.100
Well, this leads nicely to my next question, which is this. So a time warrior, the way you've been
00:47:02.820
describing, like he knows what he wants to do and then he does it, right? So he doesn't let know-how
00:47:09.460
or the lack of know-how get in the way. He just starts taking action, but you have to know what you want
00:47:14.520
to do. So like, what if you, what if you don't know what you want to do with your life? Like maybe
00:47:19.080
someone's like you, right? After you sobered up, you didn't know what you wanted to do. How did you
00:47:24.160
figure that out? Well, the answer is to choose. So let's say you're sitting in a restaurant and the
00:47:33.940
waiter comes by. Do you know what you want? No, I don't know yet. Can you give me a few minutes?
00:47:42.460
Now, would I sit there all night saying I still don't know what I want and starve to death?
00:47:49.680
Eventually I would choose. So let's say I don't know what to do as a profession.
00:47:56.280
I'm going to choose something and go there and see how that is. So the fact that I don't know what
00:48:04.420
to do doesn't mean I can't choose and get into action. I never had this thing where I want to
00:48:12.880
be a coach. I want to be a corporate trainer. I want to be an author. I never had that.
00:48:23.220
Yeah, that's a good, I think that's good advice, particularly for young people who are out of
00:48:28.160
college. They're trying to figure out what they want to do. Like, I get a lot of questions about
00:48:32.000
things. I don't know what to do. Well, I'm just like, do something. Just because you do that one
00:48:35.480
thing doesn't mean you have to stick with that forever, right? You can do other stuff after that,
00:48:40.500
but you got to get started doing something. Yeah, that's right. Choose something from the menu
00:48:45.800
and see how that goes. And from there, you'll be able to see more clearly. I've had clients who chose
00:48:55.560
the law school. I'm going to be a lawyer. My parents really want me to be and I don't know
00:49:00.960
what else to do. So they go to law school. And first year of law school, they realize I really
00:49:09.960
don't want to do this. I really understand this. Now, I understand what's required. But there's
00:49:16.100
something else from here that I see that I'd rather be doing. I'm going to go do that.
00:49:21.620
Now, that might not be the perfect thing, but that's better than law school. And then that
00:49:29.000
can show them something else. And so just choose and get into action. Get something going for
00:49:37.160
yourself. Choose the thing that looks best for now. And don't have it be, is this the right path
00:49:44.560
for me or the wrong? Have it be seems to work for me right now. Have that be an okay,
00:49:50.860
category? Seems to work for me right now. Well, that's my exact story. I went to law school because
00:49:57.660
that seemed like a good career path. But during my first year of law school, I realized I didn't
00:50:02.120
want to be a lawyer, but I wasn't sure what else to do. So I stuck with it. And it was during this
00:50:06.840
time that I started the art of manliness as a hobby, but that wasn't a job option yet. It wouldn't
00:50:11.820
be viable option until I graduated. So in the meantime, I remained 100% committed to my studies,
00:50:17.720
trying to get the best grades, doing internships. Like you said, I just did what seemed like the
00:50:22.280
best option at the time until other possibilities emerged. So what that does is, okay, not only does
00:50:29.180
doing something, it's going to open up other paths. You're going to start seeing stuff as you
00:50:33.340
take that action, but also creates that habit of just taking action and doing something instead of
00:50:39.020
just, you know, being just paralyzed by indecision.
00:50:44.040
Yeah, that's right. It does. It starts to develop that habit. So Michael Jordan,
00:50:50.160
if you asked him in high school, what does he always want to be? He wanted to be a baseball player.
00:50:57.160
That was his dream. I want to play baseball. Turned out he was very good at basketball.
00:51:03.080
And so he followed that. This seems to be working for me at the time. And then later in his life,
00:51:11.560
he went back and tried to do his dream of baseball, but just go with what's available.
00:51:18.340
You know, if I'm sitting in a restaurant and I'm in a Mexican restaurant and I want some kind of fancy
00:51:24.980
French meal, it's not on the menu. I've got to go with what's there at the time.
00:51:32.000
And so look at your options, make a choice, get into action. And don't fall prey to these people,
00:51:43.040
these motivators and dream merchants who say it's really important that you have a big,
00:51:50.600
big dream and you live your dream and that you find the perfect profession,
00:51:55.340
the perfect calling for you and you go pursue it. That ends up with a lot of heartbreak and stress
00:52:08.320
Well, Steve, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about your work?
00:52:15.360
Everything's there. Well, Steve Chandler, thanks so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.
00:52:20.140
My guest name is Steve Chandler. He is the author of the book, Time Warrior. It's available on
00:52:23.540
Amazon.com. You can find out more information about his work at his website, stevechandler.com.
00:52:28.080
Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash timewarrior, where you find links to resources
00:52:41.140
Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. Check out our website at
00:52:44.740
artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles that
00:52:48.900
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00:53:10.440
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00:53:17.700
Until next time, this is Brett McKay, reminding you not only to listen to the AOM podcast,