The Art of Manliness - #538： Research-Backed Answers to All Your Fitness FAQs

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:10.960 Which should you do first when you work out?

00:00:13.040 Cardio or weights?

00:00:14.200 How long does it take to get in shape?

00:00:15.600 How long does it take to get out of shape?

00:00:17.020 How important is your form when you run?

00:00:18.660 Does exercise really contribute to fat loss?

00:00:20.620 Does music help or hurt your athletic performance?

00:00:23.060 These are the kinds of questions folks have about exercise,

00:00:25.380 but often have trouble finding good answers to.

00:00:27.320 The advice out there on blogs and magazines is often confusing and contradictory.

00:00:31.080 My guest today set out to cut through the noise

00:00:32.800 by finding the best research-backed answers to these questions and more in his book,

00:00:36.480 Which Comes First? Cardio or weights?

00:00:38.420 Fitness myths, training truths, and other surprising discoveries from the science of exercise.

00:00:42.540 His name is Alex Hutchinson, and he started out as a Cambridge-trained physicist

00:00:45.380 and a long-distance runner on the Canadian national team,

00:00:47.680 and is now a journalist and author.

00:00:49.100 Today on the show, Alex walks us through what the scientific literature says

00:00:51.880 about some of the most common fitness and health questions out there.

00:00:54.260 This is a fun, interesting conversation packed with lots of useful insights,

00:00:57.320 Will your own theories and practices be confirmed or challenged?

00:00:59.500 Listen in and find out.

00:01:00.580 Out of the show is over.

00:01:01.180 Check out our show notes at aom.is slash fitnessfaq.

00:01:14.040 Alex Hutchinson, welcome back to the show.

00:01:16.380 Thanks a lot, Brad.

00:01:17.020 It's great to be back.

00:01:18.240 So we had you on the podcast last year to talk about your book, Endure,

00:01:21.700 which is about the science of athletic performance.

00:01:24.180 I recently picked up, and that's episode number 382, for those who want to check that out.

00:01:27.980 I recently picked up a book you published back in 2011.

00:01:31.600 So that's like eight years ago.

00:01:33.680 Take it into the archives.

00:01:34.820 Awesome.

00:01:34.900 Right.

00:01:35.820 So your book's called, Which Comes First, Cardio or Weights?

00:01:38.680 Fitness Myths, Training Truths, and Other Surprising Discoveries from the Science of Exercise.

00:01:43.300 And in it, you take these questions people often wonder about in regards to fitness,

00:01:47.560 and you see these varied answers, you know, in blogs and in magazines,

00:01:51.160 and then you dig into the research to try to offer well-vetted answers.

00:01:54.580 So I wanted to bring you back on to discuss some of this stuff,

00:01:57.180 because I know a lot of people have these questions,

00:01:59.640 and it's hard to find good answers to them.

00:02:01.580 So let's talk about the question that you use for the title of your book.

00:02:04.960 What do you do first?

00:02:05.880 Cardio or Weights?

00:02:07.040 And which one and why?

00:02:08.900 The answer, of course, is, you know, it depends, and the answer is both.

00:02:11.700 You should do Cardio or Weights.

00:02:12.540 But in terms of which one you should do first, when I wrote the book, there was an emerging

00:02:17.620 area of research, which was looking at the molecular signals that are triggered by exercise.

00:02:22.380 So why is it that when I lift a weight, you know, my muscles know to get bigger,

00:02:26.580 and when I go for a run, my muscles know to produce more mitochondria so that they improve

00:02:30.800 their endurance?

00:02:31.700 Well, there's a set of molecular signals, one of which, and there's basically two pathways.

00:02:37.200 One pathway helps triggers strength gains, and the other pathway triggers endurance gains.

00:02:42.540 And there's some really neat evidence that shows that these pathways are kind of conflicting

00:02:47.160 with each other, that if you start out and set your body for build strength, it takes

00:02:52.600 some time to switch it to the build endurance setting of molecular pathways.

00:02:58.180 And so that argument kind of backs up the conventional wisdom, which is that whichever

00:03:03.460 is most important to you is what you should do first.

00:03:05.440 So people have said that for a long time, because it's like, well, if you want to build

00:03:08.260 strength, you shouldn't do it after your cardio, because then you're going to be tired,

00:03:11.100 and you're not going to be able to lift as much.

00:03:12.540 But this was adding some molecular heft to that, which was that actually you're setting

00:03:17.980 your cells to adapt to whichever one you do first.

00:03:21.520 Now, the updated view on that, so this book came out in 2011, and most of what is in the

00:03:28.140 book I think is still absolutely current, but there's a few areas which we may get to

00:03:31.180 where I think where I would update my thinking.

00:03:33.520 And my updated thinking on that is that these molecular effects are real, but they're far

00:03:38.960 less important than what's convenient for an individual person.

00:03:44.120 And we're talking about for 99.9% of people, maybe not for an Olympic athlete, but for most

00:03:49.540 of us, I think the differences are so small now as the studies have progressed, that it's

00:03:55.340 like, if you're forcing yourself to do something in an order that is less fun or less convenient

00:03:59.700 for you to get that 0.1 or 0.5% benefit, you may be shooting yourself in the foot.

00:04:05.100 So I'll give you an example, I do, you know, running is my sport and I do running, running

00:04:09.360 is most important to me.

00:04:10.280 But when I do strength training, which I do as sort of body weight circuits in a local

00:04:14.620 park, I do that before my run, because I know that if I go for my run and I, if I have

00:04:20.320 45 minutes to work out, I will run for 44 and a half minutes and then be like, okay, now

00:04:25.540 I have 30 seconds, I'm going to do three pushups. 0.99

00:04:27.200 And that's not very useful.

00:04:28.120 So I forced myself to do the thing that's less fun for me to make sure that I don't cut it

00:04:33.220 short.

00:04:33.480 So anyway, that's the molecular answer.

00:04:36.040 And then that's my practical answer, which is the differences are too small to worry about.

00:04:39.860 So for most of us, you should do whatever is convenient, whatever is fun, whatever works

00:04:43.020 for you.

00:04:43.800 So the takeaway is that if you're really focused on optimizing your fitness modality, then

00:04:47.540 do that type of exercise first.

00:04:49.260 So if you're really into weightlifting, then you do your lifting first and then cardio.

00:04:53.420 And if you're focused on running, then it's the reverse.

00:04:55.720 But really, it's probably the most important thing to do is whatever order works best for

00:05:00.260 you and your schedule and your desires.

00:05:01.780 And of course, this all assumes you're trying to do both on the same day.

00:05:05.940 Absolutely.

00:05:06.340 Yeah.

00:05:06.480 I mean, you can do them at separate times and it is common sense, right?

00:05:10.820 All of us tend to kind of eat dessert first in the sense of do whatever is most important

00:05:15.460 to us.

00:05:15.760 That's the natural assumption.

00:05:17.120 And I think the science, the sort of microbiology backs that view up.

00:05:21.120 But ultimately, you should let your order be dictated by, yeah, whatever works best for

00:05:28.640 you.

00:05:29.580 Right.

00:05:29.940 All right.

00:05:30.340 So a lot of people start working out because they want to get in shape.

00:05:33.980 Now, let's talk about that word, that phrase, get in shape, because that can mean different

00:05:38.280 things to different people.

00:05:40.140 What exactly?

00:05:40.720 Are we talking about appearance?

00:05:42.400 Are we talking about conditioning?

00:05:43.680 Or is it both?

00:05:44.660 How do you use...

00:05:45.460 What are you talking about when you say get in shape?

00:05:46.840 Yeah, I mean, the phrase has that sort of meaning baked into it.

00:05:50.360 We're talking about the shape of the body, right?

00:05:52.140 And really, getting fit or getting in shape means different things to different people.

00:05:58.080 I don't think there's one right answer, but I think it's important to be honest with yourself

00:06:01.960 and to think carefully about what it is you're looking for.

00:06:04.500 For me, I've gone through different stages in my life.

00:06:08.020 When I was a seriously competitive runner, getting fit meant how fast can I run a mile?

00:06:13.220 That's all getting fit meant.

00:06:14.340 I didn't care if I looked like Jabba the Hutt, if I could run a fast mile.

00:06:18.120 As time has gone on, my focus is more on health and longevity and being functional and competent

00:06:26.640 through the day.

00:06:28.020 And if I go on a canoe trip or whatever, being able to lift the canoe over my head.

00:06:31.360 So it's a mix of some things that are visible, like, can I get out of a chair without falling

00:06:37.700 over?

00:06:38.060 And some things that are invisible, like, what is my blood pressure or whatever?

00:06:41.680 And then there's the third factor, which is aesthetics, which it's easy to talk down.

00:06:46.420 And I would encourage people not to make that their primary goal.

00:06:49.500 But it's also, let's be honest, it is a factor that's important to people and has to be considered.

00:06:54.520 So there's all these things.

00:06:56.280 And there's not one right answer for what being fit means.

00:06:58.920 But you have to be clear on what you mean.

00:07:00.600 So if you're going to say, does this workout program work?

00:07:03.720 Well, it depends on what the outcome is.

00:07:05.400 And I think the biggest thing is that a lot of people are judging their fitness purely

00:07:11.680 off what they see on the scale or in the mirror.

00:07:14.540 And they're making the erroneous conclusion that, oh, man, this workout program is pointless.

00:07:19.080 It didn't do anything for me.

00:07:20.680 And you're like, actually, your life expectancy just increased by 10 years over the last six

00:07:25.000 months.

00:07:25.640 You may not see that in the mirror on the scale.

00:07:27.760 But if you understand that there's these other markers that are super important in the

00:07:31.080 long term, I think that's helpful to remember and helps to encourage people to stick with

00:07:35.000 their fitness programs.

00:07:36.800 So yeah, let's dig into this a little bit more.

00:07:37.960 So as you said, as soon as you start exercising, you are experiencing benefits on a molecular

00:07:42.020 level you might not even see yet.

00:07:44.820 But you might not see those results.

00:07:46.500 You might not improve your running time after a workout.

00:07:50.120 Or you might not increase your bench press max after a workout.

00:07:53.520 Say if your goal is to endurance, improve your endurance, how long does it take for people

00:07:59.460 to see improvements on that after they start exercising?

00:08:03.640 Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great question.

00:08:04.940 And I would say, just to go back to what you said during the question, is there's this

00:08:09.400 spectrum of like, if you do one workout and then you do like a glucose challenge test,

00:08:15.060 see how much your insulin is going to rise in response to a set level of drinking a set

00:08:19.800 level of sugar, you have already gotten healthier.

00:08:21.860 Like one workout is already changing your body's ability to manage its blood sugar.

00:08:25.880 On the flip side, you know, there's been studies where people do things like, okay, let's take

00:08:31.020 a bunch of, you know, popular exercise programs that are advertised, you know, body for life

00:08:36.240 kind of things.

00:08:37.080 And let's put a bunch of people through the six week program that is going to transform

00:08:41.760 you from the 97 pound weakling and yada, yada, yada.

00:08:44.620 And then they have put people in front of a jury, you know, people have to judge the pictures

00:08:50.500 of before and after and try and figure which one's before, which one's after, see if there's

00:08:53.860 any difference.

00:08:54.800 And the bottom line is for the, in the vast majority of cases, people can't tell a difference

00:08:59.280 after six weeks.

00:09:00.100 Like they've worked hard for six weeks and, and the, the promised gains for all, but a

00:09:05.200 very lucky few are invisible.

00:09:08.100 So now building muscle is one thing.

00:09:11.180 If you're talking about endurance, which is of course my sort of specialty, you can absolutely

00:09:15.540 see changes in your fitness within two or three weeks.

00:09:18.140 And, and the same is true for muscles.

00:09:20.500 If you look, if you're measuring carefully enough, there's, there's, it's actually, it's

00:09:24.640 actually an ongoing area of debate.

00:09:25.920 Like when you start lifting weights, you very quickly start to see some strength gains.

00:09:29.300 That's mostly from like within, you know, a week or whatever.

00:09:32.940 That's mostly neuromuscular.

00:09:34.300 Your, your brain is getting better at sending signals to your muscles within about two or

00:09:39.380 three weeks.

00:09:40.080 You can see if you're measuring with an accurate enough device that your muscles are getting

00:09:43.860 bigger.

00:09:44.140 Now there's arguments right now, but is that really bigger muscles or is that just like

00:09:48.140 muscle damage causing a little bit of inflammation?

00:09:50.760 And that's, that, that's an area of ongoing debate, but certainly within let's say four

00:09:56.040 weeks or something, your muscles are getting bigger.

00:09:58.240 It's just not this kind of change that, that is, you know, visible when you're walking down

00:10:02.800 the street in your tank top.

00:10:04.780 Now, so how quickly it takes depends a little bit on how hard you're willing to work.

00:10:09.720 And so in some of the studies that see the really early muscle gain, we're talking

00:10:13.380 like four workouts a week supervised by a personal trainer who is, you know, yelling at you and

00:10:18.020 beating you with a baseball bat.

00:10:19.160 If you don't lift hard enough, it's not, well, I mean, I'm exaggerating you in case

00:10:22.680 that's not clear, but it's definitely four workouts a week, very hard.

00:10:26.840 And it's not something that's sustainable for most people, especially if they're not

00:10:31.620 like being supervised and yelled at.

00:10:34.140 So my, my, my rule of thumb is if you want to see benefits, you, you should, you should just

00:10:38.760 not even worry about where you are until six months.

00:10:40.860 After six months, that's the time to say, okay, is this working the way I think it is

00:10:45.080 or do I need to adjust?

00:10:46.520 If you're, if you're, if you're taking the pot off the stove after two months, you just

00:10:50.040 don't know whether it's working yet.

00:10:51.640 Are you saying like six months is for improvement in fitness or improvement in aesthetics or

00:10:56.380 appearance?

00:10:57.120 For aesthetics, I would say six months is the bare minimum, unless you're, you're first 1.00

00:11:01.860 of all, a super responder.

00:11:02.800 And second of all, like going from an untrained state, you know, you've been locked in a cell

00:11:07.840 for five years, not moving.

00:11:09.460 And now you're really starting to, to train six days a week or something.

00:11:12.920 Then, you know, you're going to see changes much more quickly, but I would say for, for

00:11:17.060 seeing changes six months.

00:11:19.400 Yeah.

00:11:19.900 For, for, for changing fitness and strength and endurance and health, you know, we're

00:11:23.940 talking weeks, although, you know, it's, it's a dose response.

00:11:28.180 It's small changes in weeks, bigger changes in months, huge changes in years.

00:11:32.640 So that's, that's good to know that manages the expectations for people.

00:11:35.860 Well, let's talk about, let's say you stopped exercising for whatever reason, maybe you

00:11:39.620 get injured or you get really busy and you can't get to the gym or you take a longer

00:11:42.900 vacation.

00:11:43.860 How long does it take for you to get unfit?

00:11:46.980 Yeah.

00:11:47.320 So there's, you know, it depends on your definition of unfit.

00:11:50.740 And, and one thing is that the longer you've been training, the longer your fitness is going

00:11:55.800 to longer, you can kind of skate by with minimal training.

00:11:59.380 Part of that is that again, speaking of endurance, it's like, there are some things that are sort

00:12:04.280 of ephemeral, like the mitochondrial content of your cells is a big factor in endurance and that

00:12:09.280 can rise and fall.

00:12:10.280 But there are other things that are structural, like your, you've, your heart is bigger and

00:12:14.320 stronger and you've grown more capillaries to deliver blood to your muscles.

00:12:17.480 Those things aren't going to disappear in two weeks.

00:12:19.540 Those structural changes, structural changes are going to last for quite a while.

00:12:22.220 And the same with muscle too.

00:12:23.500 If you, if you put on a bunch of muscle, it doesn't just melt away.

00:12:26.760 And if you don't work out for two or three weeks, it may, you may lose a little strength

00:12:30.880 in that your, your, your neuromuscular signal isn't, isn't as good, but that muscle is still

00:12:35.600 going to be there for you.

00:12:36.820 So, you know, to me that there's like, you know, again, it depends on the person, the

00:12:41.400 context, but like you can go two weeks without exercising.

00:12:44.180 And aside from being a bit rusty, you're not going to lose a ton.

00:12:48.320 If you go four weeks without exercising, then you've lost a lot.

00:12:52.100 That's, that's the sort of range where four weeks is a lot.

00:12:54.960 Two weeks is not a lot.

00:12:56.460 And if you're time pressed, one of the things that the research shows is that a couple of

00:13:02.380 hard workouts, you know, maybe twice a week, it doesn't have to be a long period of time,

00:13:07.160 but if you push yourself, maybe just twice a week that can maintain fitness for much,

00:13:12.100 much longer.

00:13:12.740 That's true in the endurance context.

00:13:13.920 You get people who are training, you know, six days a week, and then you say, okay, now

00:13:17.880 you can only train half an hour at a time, twice a week.

00:13:20.400 And if you, if you push it for that half an hour, twice a week, you can maintain your

00:13:23.180 fitness for a surprisingly long, you know, like a month or whatever.

00:13:26.200 And I imagine the same thing is there's something similar in it with strength training, which

00:13:31.000 is that, you know, even if you're used to maintaining a high load, as long as you're

00:13:34.420 able to, you know, shock those muscles once or twice a week, you're going to do a lot

00:13:37.920 better than if you go.

00:13:38.820 So I guess the message I'm trying to get across is here is that it's not all or nothing.

00:13:42.060 It's not like, oh, I'm pretty busy.

00:13:43.940 I can't do all my workouts.

00:13:44.960 Therefore I'm going to lie on the sofa and eat Cheetos.

00:13:47.360 If you can find 15 minutes to get out there and hammer, even if it's a couple, just a

00:13:51.220 couple of times a week, that, that will do a lot to make sure that you can pick up your

00:13:55.860 fit, your routine again, four weeks later or whatever it is, or three weeks later when

00:14:00.340 you have more time.

00:14:01.560 Yeah.

00:14:01.660 That's what I do whenever, um, I just exercise even when I don't have time just so I can

00:14:05.700 maintain that habit, right?

00:14:07.300 So like when I went on vacation this summer, I didn't have access to a gym, so I didn't have

00:14:11.980 barbells.

00:14:12.540 So what I did instead was did like a 15 minute body circuit workout.

00:14:17.320 So it was like pull-ups, body squats, push-ups, and just went really, really hard on that.

00:14:22.760 Did it three times a week, helped my work capacity go up and I maintained that habit.

00:14:28.220 So when I got back home, like it wasn't like, oh man, I got to start this all over again.

00:14:32.580 I just kept going.

00:14:34.120 Yeah, absolutely.

00:14:34.760 I think, I think that's a super important point.

00:14:36.860 Like I've come to the, one, one of the sort of areas where my thinking has, has drifted a

00:14:40.960 little bit or evolved a little bit is I've just come to believe that the, the habit forming

00:14:46.180 elements and the psychology of exercise is so much more important than we sometimes think that we

00:14:51.860 get, you know, we get focused on like how many reps should I do at what percentage of my max.

00:14:57.060 And, you know, those things make a difference, but so much more important is understanding what

00:15:01.600 it is that will enable you to maintain a consistent program, whatever that program is.

00:15:05.920 So similar to you, like one of the things that I've, I find is, you know, I get super

00:15:10.060 busy and stressed out and think I don't have time to run today.

00:15:13.300 Well, one of the ways I fight against that is that I say, I say, sometimes I'm like, I'm

00:15:17.900 going to go out for a five minute run.

00:15:19.840 Now that's ludicrous because I, I used to run an hour a day and even these days I like

00:15:23.660 to get out for at least half an hour, five minutes. 0.95

00:15:25.680 It seems stupid even just when you think of the time it takes to change and shower, but I

00:15:30.660 just want to maintain the habit. 0.93

00:15:31.820 And if, if I go out for five minutes and I come back and that's it, then it's like,

00:15:35.480 okay, that hasn't done a ton for me, but it's maintained my habit.

00:15:38.060 And of course, often once I get out for five minutes, I'm like, am I really so busy that

00:15:41.920 I can't extend this to 20 minutes?

00:15:43.480 Of course not.

00:15:44.300 I can find 15 minutes in the day.

00:15:45.520 So I'll just end up getting my 20 minute run in.

00:15:47.640 But even if I don't, I've, I've kept that routine going and haven't just gotten into the

00:15:52.640 habit of like, I'm going to skip my run today.

00:15:54.100 I always try and get out the door.

00:15:55.540 And if I'm so stressed and busy that five minutes is all I feel I can handle, then that's fine.

00:15:59.600 But, but I don't just make it all or nothing.

00:16:01.360 All right.

00:16:01.840 So something's better than nothing is the takeaway.

00:16:04.100 Absolutely.

00:16:04.680 That's, that's probably like, if there's one message that people take away from, from all

00:16:09.400 of this, and this is an answer to so many questions, it's like, yeah, we can optimize, you know,

00:16:13.980 up the wazoo, but ultimately something is always better than nothing.

00:16:17.360 And for a large fraction of people, they're doing nothing or, or, or they're trying to do

00:16:21.660 all or nothing.

00:16:22.360 They're, they're, they're not, they're, they're not realizing that, you know, Hey, sometimes you

00:16:26.620 can't do what's perfect, but you got to, if you do something, you're going to be way,

00:16:29.740 way, way ahead of doing nothing.

00:16:30.920 Well, yeah.

00:16:31.720 That idea of something better than nothing, like that can go to how, which sort of fitness

00:16:35.880 practice you choose.

00:16:37.100 Cause a lot of people feel like, well, I, I should do this, but they don't enjoy it.

00:16:40.840 So they don't really do it.

00:16:42.100 So like find something you actually like doing and you're going to be more likely to do it.

00:16:46.380 And now it might not be, you know, Instagram worthy where you can like show yourself, you

00:16:50.740 know, running a sub two hour marathon or deadlifting 700 pounds.

00:16:54.480 But like, if you're taking a hike or you're playing ultimate Frisbee, you know, a couple

00:16:58.460 of times a week, that's better than nothing.

00:17:01.220 Absolutely.

00:17:01.620 And it's, and it's actually in many ways, it's better than like even very good options,

00:17:07.240 because if it's something you're going to keep doing for the next 20 years, then that's

00:17:10.940 a huge win.

00:17:11.720 And so again, like that's when I, again, this is an area I've been writing about for, you

00:17:17.080 know, 10 or 15 years.

00:17:18.680 And in, in my evolution of thought, I, I now tend to put a lot more emphasis on factors

00:17:24.860 on things like that, on the finding something sustainable rather than optimizing the details.

00:17:29.760 And if I love optimizing the details, it's, it's, it's what interests me.

00:17:33.180 And there's a lot of people who love that too.

00:17:34.500 And I'm, that's, that's my bread and butter in terms of what I write about, but I'm really

00:17:39.100 conscious now of trying to make sure that people don't take the message that,

00:17:41.720 just because I spent a thousand words writing about, you know, whether you should run at

00:17:46.080 this pace or 10 seconds faster per mile or whatever, that doesn't mean that's what's

00:17:49.740 most important.

00:17:50.280 That's the 1%. 0.86

00:17:51.020 The 99% is, yeah, find something you like doing and do it.

00:17:54.540 All right.

00:17:54.620 Let's talk about weight loss and exercises.

00:17:56.300 A lot of people start exercising, they want to lose weight, but I think everyone's seen

00:17:59.540 those reports or research that shows that exercise doesn't contribute much to fat loss.

00:18:04.360 What does, what's the research sound like?

00:18:05.820 I imagine it's more nuanced than that.

00:18:07.980 Yeah.

00:18:08.200 I'll confess that I am a sort of minor, maybe a minority opinion on this.

00:18:12.560 I don't buy that stuff, or at least I would add the caveat when people, when people say

00:18:16.580 exercise doesn't contribute much to weight loss, what they're really saying is exercise

00:18:21.300 at the levels that they're willing to do in these studies doesn't contribute much to

00:18:26.380 weight loss.

00:18:27.060 You know, if, and, and this is not true of all studies, but most studies are relatively

00:18:31.180 just like, oh, you know, we had these people walking for half an hour, five days a week,

00:18:34.620 and they only lost a couple of pounds.

00:18:36.700 There's two responses to that.

00:18:38.100 One is that, okay, maybe they only lost a couple of pounds, but I bet their metabolic

00:18:41.260 health is way better.

00:18:42.360 So there's, there's huge value to, to walking half an hour, five times a week.

00:18:46.140 But the other thing is like, if you want to say exercise doesn't contribute to weight

00:18:49.460 loss, come, come and run with my training group for, for a couple of years.

00:18:52.800 And, you know, this is a huge debate, like, are, are, are runners skinny because they're

00:18:58.220 naturally destined to be skinny and that's why they're runners or, or, or are they skinny

00:19:03.560 because there's something about running 80 miles a week that makes you skinny?

00:19:09.500 And I think there's probably a bit, a bit of both.

00:19:12.640 I had a, I remember like 10 years ago, I had a conversation with Gary Taubes about this

00:19:16.420 and his argument was, yeah, you know, it's running doesn't make you skinny.

00:19:19.460 It's just that people who are skinny end up running and that, that may be true in a lot

00:19:23.040 of cases, but everyone who's been in a running group has also seen people who are overweight

00:19:27.860 join the group, stick with it over the long period of time.

00:19:30.840 It's hard, but, but, and, and end up dropping large amounts of weight.

00:19:35.520 So, so my belief is that, you know, absolutely it's weight loss is far more complicated than

00:19:40.360 just, oh, if you do more exercise, you'll burn more calories and then you'll lose weight

00:19:44.120 because there are all sorts of compensating factors.

00:19:45.880 There's behavioral compensators, like the fact that you're, you know, you, if you're,

00:19:50.480 you exercise more, you'll, you'll be hungrier.

00:19:52.420 And there's also sort of invisible compensating factors, changes in your metabolism that fight

00:19:57.840 to keep whatever weight you've been at.

00:20:00.920 So, so it's absolutely complicated, but if you're burning enough calories through exercise,

00:20:06.120 I absolutely believe it's a, it's a contributing factor to, it can be a contributing factor to

00:20:12.000 weight loss.

00:20:12.420 Although you shouldn't, you, that doesn't mean you should be out eating Twinkies nonetheless.

00:20:16.900 And the one other thing that I think is maybe underappreciated is there's a pretty significant

00:20:21.660 body of literature that suggests that in people who exercise at least a moderate amount,

00:20:28.600 they're better at matching their appetite cues to their caloric needs.

00:20:35.000 So, you know, obviously like a thousand years ago, people just ate when they were hungry or they

00:20:39.140 ate when they could get food or whatever, but, but even when they had access to relatively copious

00:20:43.520 food, they, they didn't necessarily eat more than they needed.

00:20:46.480 And there's, there's some interesting evidence that suggests when you look at appetite cues and,

00:20:50.500 and, and feel freely chosen food intake, people who exercise tend to be more able to

00:20:57.020 automatically eat the amount that they need.

00:21:00.040 And when, and when you get to people who are completely sedentary, that, that system kind

00:21:04.220 of breaks and they no longer, their appetite cues are no longer in tune.

00:21:08.640 Somehow something about exercise keeps that intake and outflow balance better.

00:21:14.120 So, so in that sense, exercise's main benefit may be not that it burns extra calories, but

00:21:18.840 that it helps calibrate your, your sense of appetite to the amount of calories you actually

00:21:23.200 need.

00:21:23.520 We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors and now back to the

00:21:28.160 show.

00:21:28.740 Well, and you also talk about that the type of exercise might increase or D or might increase

00:21:33.680 the chances of you burning fat.

00:21:35.240 There's a lot of people think, well, I'm going to lose some weight.

00:21:36.980 I'm just going to get on the treadmill and get in that fat burning zone for an hour and

00:21:40.660 I'll lose weight.

00:21:42.380 But you say like people forget like strength training often contributes more to fat loss than,

00:21:47.920 than cardio.

00:21:49.380 Yeah.

00:21:49.740 Well, there's, and there's the fat burning zone, boy, you just pushed a red button

00:21:53.400 there.

00:21:54.700 I mean, there's a few, there's, there's different things for one thing.

00:21:57.580 If you build muscle, muscle is very metabolically active and helps burn calories and control

00:22:02.840 blood sugar levels.

00:22:03.680 So, so having more muscle is, is a huge advantage for controlling weight.

00:22:07.700 There's also, you know, obviously high intensity interval training is, is, has been a big trend

00:22:12.460 over the last 10 years and doing high intensity work can contribute to extra calorie burn that

00:22:19.520 persists for a while after a workout.

00:22:21.220 So, but I mean, in terms of the fat burning zone, I mean, there is some truth to the fact

00:22:27.860 that if you go relatively easily on a treadmill, then you will, or, or, or in whatever, whatever,

00:22:34.460 not even on a treadmill.

00:22:35.300 And what, if, if you're, if your intensity of exercise is low, you'll burn mostly fat.

00:22:39.540 And if you're, if, as you push and go harder and harder, you'll start to burn a higher and

00:22:44.080 higher percentage of carbohydrate, but it's a total misinterpretation to think, ah, therefore

00:22:49.600 I should exercise as easily as possible so that I'm burning 90% fat instead of 10% fat.

00:22:53.780 Because if you're going really easily, you're the total number of calories you're burning

00:22:58.060 is, is, is low.

00:23:00.100 So then you're like, well, I'm burning 90% of 10 calories an hour.

00:23:03.500 It's better to be burning 50% fat at a hundred calories an hour.

00:23:07.860 So, and the only reason, I mean, in theory, if you want to burn the most fat, you should

00:23:13.000 be just sprinting all out.

00:23:14.240 Now, the problem is you can't sustain sprinting all out for, you know, more than a few minutes.

00:23:19.280 You can't, you can't say I'm going to sprint for an hour.

00:23:21.920 So the way a lot of exercise programs evolve is to have evolved is to try and balance that

00:23:28.060 to have a mix of intensity, high intensity and low intensity so that you're accumulating

00:23:32.640 longer duration, but also high intensity.

00:23:35.300 You're mixing up, you're hitting different energy systems, and that's going to maximize

00:23:39.180 the amount of calories you're able to burn overall during an exercise program.

00:23:43.680 Now, the other thing I would say about fat burning zones, not to complicate it even more

00:23:46.600 is ultimately, although this is, again, a controversial area of debate in research, I don't think it

00:23:52.200 really matters which calories you burn.

00:23:54.420 If you burn carbohydrates, if you burn fat, it's all essentially one big pot in terms of

00:24:00.940 the fuel that is then coming in from your next meal.

00:24:04.600 If you've burned your carbohydrate stores, then your next meal is going to go to replenishing

00:24:09.860 those carbohydrate stores rather than filling up your fat stores.

00:24:13.180 So whether you burn carbs or fat is just, again, one of those details where it's,

00:24:16.600 like, if we can go back to doing something is better than nothing, I wouldn't, like, say,

00:24:21.820 oh, I need to be at 65% of my heart rate, not 72%.

00:24:25.260 It's like, dude, do whatever is fun and sustainable, and that's going to be your best bet rather

00:24:30.740 than trying to micro-engineer the intensity.

00:24:34.420 Yeah, and the whole, as you were talking, it made me think, I think a lot of people, when

00:24:38.180 they think fat burning zone, there's also a misconception of how metabolism works. 0.95

00:24:43.400 They're thinking, oh, I'm in the fat burning zone, I'm burning stored fat right now.

00:24:47.580 Probably not.

00:24:48.220 You're probably burning dietary fat that you consumed, you know, last night at dinner.

00:24:52.620 So you're not even touching your fat stores yet.

00:24:54.880 Yeah, if, and, you know, this maybe goes to another question, but it's like, no, you can't,

00:25:00.620 you know, I'm doing core exercises, so therefore I'm burning the fat off my belly or whatever.

00:25:05.480 No, no, that's not how it works.

00:25:07.100 You're burning from the giant pot of energy you have.

00:25:11.000 You can't target or spot burn fat from specific areas.

00:25:15.800 That's just not how it works.

00:25:17.420 All right, so those Instagram influencers, don't listen to them.

00:25:20.460 Who knew?

00:25:21.360 Who knew that they weren't, you know, fonts of knowledge.

00:25:24.960 Well, let's talk about endurance, just sort of endurance athletics, endurance fitness,

00:25:30.400 because this is your wheelhouse.

00:25:31.800 One question you explore is whether there's a correct or incorrect way to run.

00:25:35.860 I think people who do 5Ks or marathons, they've probably read books on how they should improve

00:25:40.900 their form and decrease injuries.

00:25:43.820 Is there anything to that, or is there just run however your body feels naturally it wants

00:25:48.140 to run?

00:25:48.960 Yeah, this is, again, you've successfully picked like a third rail topic that gets people

00:25:54.740 really worked up.

00:25:55.780 I know, yeah.

00:25:56.560 What I would say is there is no quote unquote correct way to run.

00:26:01.780 I will acknowledge that there are some incorrect ways to run.

00:26:04.480 So there's not one way you should run, but there are some things to be avoided.

00:26:09.240 And, you know, the classic one would be overstriding.

00:26:12.080 You often see less experienced runners taking these big, long steps, crashing down on their

00:26:18.580 heels way in front of their bodies. 0.99

00:26:20.540 It's not very efficient.

00:26:21.700 It's not, it's not, it's harder on the, on the joints.

00:26:25.440 I would say in most cases, if you just spend some time running, your body, the feedback you

00:26:31.860 get from your body will help you iron out those problems that you will, you will sort

00:26:35.860 of naturally evolve into a fairly efficient and fairly comfortable running stride.

00:26:41.700 That's certainly how I learned to run.

00:26:43.400 Now, if you see me run, you will say, dude, you should have like learned to run properly. 1.00

00:26:48.560 You look like an idiot. 1.00

00:26:49.420 And that's, people have been telling me that for a long time. 1.00

00:26:51.440 Um, so I, I, you know, I, I'm open to the, there are running coaches out there who, who

00:26:56.380 have a lot of ideas about form.

00:26:58.420 I'm open to the idea that they may have some useful tips for some people.

00:27:02.000 Certainly there's lots of satisfied customers out there who were like, I used to run, you

00:27:06.640 know, like a, like a hippopotamus with a broken leg.

00:27:09.440 Now I, I flow down the street, just feels wonderful.

00:27:12.380 I'm happy for those people.

00:27:13.520 In, in the, in the scientific realm, in the, in the, if we look at studies of running

00:27:19.560 form, of making changes to running form to see if you can become more efficient, the

00:27:24.860 general consensus is whenever you make a change to someone's running form, they become less

00:27:30.140 efficient and it becomes harder to, to like, it's mentally harder.

00:27:34.880 And it's also, even when people feel it's actually better, it's measurably less efficient.

00:27:39.360 So I'm still a believer in mostly just run how you feel.

00:27:46.040 And if, but maybe if a knowledgeable observer tells you you're doing something crazily wrong,

00:27:50.940 you know, you've got your arms completely straight by your sides or behind your head

00:27:54.900 or something like that, there may be some useful advice to you.

00:27:58.600 I guess, you know, sorry not to ramble on in this, but I, I do remember watching the New

00:28:02.740 York marathon one year and, you know, I'm a fan of the elite side of the sport.

00:28:06.740 So I usually watch on TV and see, and the cameras focus 90% of the time on, you know,

00:28:11.380 the lead pack and they're all running, you know, with these smooth, beautiful strides,

00:28:15.220 but a couple of times watching with friends on the sidelines and, you know, cheering on

00:28:19.660 the people who are not just running two hour marathons, but who are running three hours

00:28:23.020 and four hours and five hours.

00:28:24.160 And it's like, okay, I'll admit it at the five hour range.

00:28:28.080 You're seeing some people with some pretty peculiar running form sometimes, not everybody, but,

00:28:31.720 but you occasionally you'll see people like, ah, I, I bet I could give a tip to that

00:28:36.380 person that might help them run a little more smoothly.

00:28:38.780 So it's not that it's impossible to improve, but I think in, in general, most of these pieces

00:28:44.540 of advice, like you have to have a running cadence of 180 steps per minute, or you must

00:28:48.920 ensure that your feet land in this particular way, like on the, on the toes rather than on

00:28:53.060 the heel or whatever.

00:28:54.080 A lot of them have these sort of bio plausible narratives where it sounds reasonable, but

00:28:58.520 the more research you do and the more you test it, the more you find it's like, ah, actually

00:29:02.160 that didn't make anybody better.

00:29:03.420 It didn't make anybody more efficient.

00:29:04.660 And it didn't make them less injured.

00:29:05.900 It didn't, it didn't actually help after all.

00:29:07.840 So if there is a perfect running form, we, we haven't really identified how to, what

00:29:13.280 it is or how to teach people how to do it.

00:29:16.560 What's the state of barefoot running these days?

00:29:18.920 I remember like when this book came out, it was huge.

00:29:20.860 Like I, I was one of those guys who bought Vibram five fingers and they've been in the

00:29:26.600 trash for a long time.

00:29:27.840 Like what's, what's going on there? 0.90

00:29:29.620 Is it as big or people kind of like cooled on it?

00:29:32.140 It is definitely cooled.

00:29:34.000 I think what a lot of people found is that they got hurt.

00:29:38.480 Um, it wasn't as easy as they thought.

00:29:40.180 And for the people who succeeded, I think I would say, uh, you know, I'm generalizing

00:29:44.180 here, obviously, but I think the people who succeeded did a transition or, or learn to

00:29:49.000 do it very gradually.

00:29:50.500 So gradually that they probably could have learned to run in, in combat boots, you know,

00:29:55.120 doing the same thing just by, by giving their body plenty of time to adapt to a new movement

00:30:00.200 pattern.

00:30:00.780 Now there, there's a lot fewer people out there running in Vibrams or running barefoot than

00:30:06.940 there were 10 years ago.

00:30:08.220 That being said, the whole running shoe market has changed as a result of that.

00:30:13.620 What was for, for a long time that it was this over-engineered, you know, this idea, you have

00:30:18.840 to control the foot.

00:30:20.020 It wants to pronate.

00:30:20.940 You have to prevent the foot from pronating.

00:30:22.560 We need pronation control. 0.90

00:30:24.160 And these, all these big pieces of plastic stuck inside the shoe, minimalism, absolute

00:30:29.700 pure minimalism, running bare feet, which makes a lot of sense from a sort of logical and

00:30:33.560 evolutionary perspective turned out to be something that's very, very hard for most people to

00:30:37.000 do if they've grown up in, in, you know, Western society.

00:30:39.760 But what, what, that, that forced, that, that whole movement forced shoe companies to sort

00:30:46.240 of look inward and reflect and say, are these, are these shoes we're selling?

00:30:50.340 Do they actually do anything?

00:30:51.260 Like, do we have good evidence?

00:30:53.320 And, you know, I would say the general answer was, uh, a lot of what we're doing is not really

00:30:57.580 supported.

00:30:58.180 It's not useful.

00:30:58.840 So maybe we should simplify shoes, make them a little lighter, make them a little more flexible

00:31:02.780 and more sort of able to move naturally like the foot.

00:31:05.780 And so I certainly am one person who I didn't go minimalist, but I run in much lighter shoes

00:31:10.960 than I did 10 years ago.

00:31:12.660 And the array of shoes that are available to people in stores is a lot different and

00:31:17.140 a lot lighter.

00:31:18.080 And I think that's, that's good because even if not everyone runs in the same shoe, there's

00:31:22.140 a, there's a bigger menu of options available to people now to, to find a shoe that, that

00:31:27.620 fits for them.

00:31:28.400 And that, that makes, that makes them feel good running.

00:31:30.540 So another part of the, when you talked about running in the book, you talked about, is

00:31:35.620 there really a runner's high?

00:31:37.080 And you likened it to a Yeti because you, a lot of people talk about it, but not a lot

00:31:41.980 of people have experienced it.

00:31:43.140 I remember like a few years ago, I got really into running and I never felt like, I always

00:31:47.760 felt just not great after a run.

00:31:49.820 So does a runner's high actually exist or is that overblown?

00:31:53.700 Yeah, it's, I mean, I think it does exist.

00:31:56.300 I think the people who reported are legit, but I think I feel the, the reason I feel

00:32:00.740 bad is precisely because of what you're saying.

00:32:02.380 People are like, people who get into running are like, oh man, I'll get this amazing, like

00:32:06.180 euphoric high.

00:32:08.060 And then like, no, actually I just want to like lie down and pass out that I don't feel

00:32:12.140 like a high.

00:32:12.700 And I've, I've been running for a billion years and I, you know, I've never experienced

00:32:15.780 that sort of euphoric high.

00:32:17.480 What, what did I get when I'm lucky?

00:32:19.040 Is it a sort of feeling of satisfaction that, you know, life is good.

00:32:22.980 And it's hard to separate that from maybe I'm just feeling like, Hey, I just went out

00:32:28.080 and did something hard.

00:32:28.880 I achieved a goal that I'd set for myself and I've done something good today.

00:32:32.260 And so I'm feeling good about that.

00:32:33.640 Is that just because I, I did that or is it because my brain chemistry has changed?

00:32:38.340 And it took me a while to sort of conclude that, yeah, there's probably some brain chemistry

00:32:42.460 changes.

00:32:42.780 I'm just a little calmer after, after, if I get a run done in the morning, um, yeah, I just

00:32:47.880 feel subtly better about things.

00:32:50.060 So the, the, the research on runner's high, I mean, it's hard because, because the sort

00:32:54.200 of euphoric high is so rare, it's hard to study it because there's so few people who,

00:32:58.560 who actually experienced that.

00:33:00.820 But what they, what they, there have been a lot of studies and the, the consensus now,

00:33:04.900 or at least the, the, the sort of feeling now is that it's not just, you know, endorphins

00:33:09.740 or, you know, one particular chemical.

00:33:11.780 There's actually a whole bunch of different things.

00:33:13.460 There's endocannabinoids, which are basically the body's version of marijuana.

00:33:18.440 And, you know, endorphins, which are the body's version of opioids like morphine and, and there's

00:33:24.400 various other chemicals like dopamine and all of these to different degrees in different

00:33:28.300 people are stimulated by prolonged exercise that's moderately hard.

00:33:35.140 So what, if you, if you're sprinting, you don't get the same change in brain chemistry.

00:33:38.940 If you're really just, you know, going out for a brisk walk, you don't get that same

00:33:42.620 change.

00:33:43.040 So I think that's why it's tends to be runner's high is that running just happens to be an

00:33:48.440 activity that favors, you know, you to, to go out and be able to be moderately hard for

00:33:53.960 a prolonged period of time.

00:33:54.900 It's not like cycling where you can just take your feet off the pedals.

00:33:57.260 So you tend to coast a little more, the intensity tends to be a little lower.

00:34:01.160 It's not like swimming where you're, if you're like me, at least you have to work relatively

00:34:04.380 hard to avoid drowning.

00:34:05.320 So it's, it's, it, it hits that middle ground.

00:34:08.260 And I think for most people, it's, it's a much more subtle change in mood or change in

00:34:14.080 brain chemistry that, that may not happen with everyone for sure.

00:34:17.240 And that may be more of a cumulative thing too, that it's something that over time it

00:34:21.740 changes your mood, but yeah, the sort of, you know, I'm floating through the universe

00:34:25.780 in touch with, with all the human race.

00:34:27.600 Uh, I, I personally have never met anyone who experienced that.

00:34:31.360 Well, and those brain boosting or mood boosting benefits of cardio are one reason why,

00:34:35.300 why strength athletes should also incorporate cardio into their workout programming.

00:34:40.720 Yeah.

00:34:41.180 I mean, I think, yeah, I can give you a lot of reasons that I think, uh, a little bit

00:34:45.880 of, uh, endurance training is a good idea.

00:34:47.780 One of them is that, yeah, the most reliable, you know, for, for any benefit of exercise,

00:34:51.680 there's usually a set of studies of different forms of exercise saying, oh yeah, well, you

00:34:56.860 can get this from strength training too, or you can get this from, you know, circuit training

00:35:00.300 or CrossFit or whatever the case may be.

00:35:02.120 And I think there's, there's some truth to that, but the most reliable way of getting

00:35:05.300 getting the mood changing benefits of exercise is definitely the vast majority of the research

00:35:10.100 is with aerobic exercise.

00:35:11.860 And that extends to, for things like cognitive benefits.

00:35:14.140 Cause you know, there's, as, as a guy in my mid forties, as, you know, staring down the

00:35:17.680 tunnel of life, I'm starting to read more studies about like, Hey, how do I keep my marbles

00:35:21.820 as I, as I get older, you know, try and stave off cognitive decline.

00:35:24.640 And there's, there's pretty good evidence.

00:35:26.680 There's very good evidence for, for aerobic exercise, stimulating brain growth factors

00:35:31.500 that keep your brain healthy.

00:35:32.920 There's also evidence for resistance training, but they're different pathways.

00:35:36.280 So you're not, you're missing out on something if you're not doing some aerobic exercise.

00:35:40.340 And then, you know, moving outside the brain, there's also some of the metabolic benefits

00:35:44.660 of exercise.

00:35:45.180 It's just, it's clear that resistance training is really healthy for you in a lot of different

00:35:50.120 ways, but it doesn't max out your benefits in terms of keeping your blood pressure and

00:35:54.540 your blood sugar levels and things like that at optimal levels.

00:35:57.980 All right, let's move over to strength training.

00:35:59.620 You talk about the core now for the past decade, we've probably, everyone's probably seen, you

00:36:05.180 know, magazine articles, blog posts, infomercials about strengthening your core.

00:36:09.280 What exactly is the core and do exercise help anything with that?

00:36:13.260 Yeah, so I would say anything that's gotten as much hype as the core has gotten in the

00:36:18.640 last decade or so is, is almost by definition overhyped.

00:36:22.260 Like it's important, but it's not like more important than, you know, your feet muscles

00:36:27.140 or whatever, like you want to be stable while you have to have, you know, strong, there's

00:36:31.120 like, I don't know, 14 muscles in your feet.

00:36:33.420 All those have to be strong and balanced and stable too, if you're going to have good balance.

00:36:37.460 So, so core is, is, uh, it's important and it's just one of those things that maybe caught

00:36:44.460 on and got a little overhyped.

00:36:46.700 But I think people tend to think of the core as like, it's a six pack.

00:36:50.680 Like if you have a good six pack, you have a good core and that's, that's too narrow a

00:36:55.820 view because really what you want when you talk about core from a functional point of view

00:37:00.000 is you want something that's giving you stability, uh, that's, that's, you know, allow it, giving

00:37:04.480 you a good base from which to, to use your strength.

00:37:07.480 And so you have to kind of broaden the definition just from, from the abs out to the, the, the

00:37:12.860 hips and the pelvis. 1.00

00:37:14.920 And, you know, there've been a bunch of interesting studies that look at, uh, you know, in, in

00:37:20.980 running, for example, in looks at, look at things like knee injuries, runner's knee, and

00:37:25.840 find that there's a really strong correlation between, you know, runner's knee problems and

00:37:31.000 weak hips that if you don't have strong hips, you're, you're more likely to have your knees 0.88

00:37:36.280 turning inwards when you run and putting strain on, on that knee joint.

00:37:39.640 So that's a, that's a, you know, one example of a case where, yeah, if you don't have a

00:37:45.060 strong core that can manifest in problems in other places in your body.

00:37:49.740 And so it is good to have a good core.

00:37:51.780 Or what I think what the, the thing to avoid is to interpret that as you should do a ton

00:37:56.380 of crunches every night.

00:37:57.720 Right.

00:37:58.200 Cause those crunches are just exercising those superficial muscles on your abs that don't

00:38:02.820 really do anything.

00:38:03.580 Yeah, absolutely.

00:38:05.020 So there's better core exercises and there's also a sort of a broader definition of, of,

00:38:10.920 of what the core is and, and, you know, how, how broad it might be.

00:38:15.100 So at a certain point, once you're doing, you know, hip exercises and pelvic exercises and

00:38:19.700 back exercises, then it's like, well, I'm not really exercising the core anymore.

00:38:23.980 This is just exercise.

00:38:24.860 This is part of a good balanced exercise program.

00:38:27.780 Right.

00:38:28.220 And you, I mean, you could work the core quote unquote, just by doing deadlifts and squats.

00:38:32.100 Cause that engages the hips, the lower back in that ab, that ab part. 0.99

00:38:36.840 I would say there's probably no better way.

00:38:38.860 Like that's, that's, that's the ultimate.

00:38:40.580 If you, if you can do those well, yeah, that's a pretty good sign that your core is in good shape.

00:38:44.780 All right.

00:38:45.060 So no, no plank, you don't have to do no planks required if you don't want to.

00:38:48.340 Yeah.

00:38:48.500 I mean, you know, planks are not the worst thing in the world, but, but yeah, if, if, if you're

00:38:53.320 deadlifting and squatting, then that's, that's going to be challenging your core in, in all

00:38:57.800 the ways that are important.

00:38:59.020 So what about body weight exercises?

00:39:00.820 Are those just as beneficial as weight training?

00:39:03.140 I'm imagining the answer to this, this sort of conversation, the way it's been going is

00:39:06.020 like, yeah, cause it's something.

00:39:08.160 Yeah.

00:39:08.480 Or, or since I answered every question, well, it depends then, you know, yeah, you can see where

00:39:12.220 it's going.

00:39:12.520 Um, yeah, I would say, I think this is, this is, uh, you know, an important point for,

00:39:16.840 for strength training in general.

00:39:17.880 It's like, what is your goal?

00:39:19.700 Do you want to be, you know, Mr. Olympia or, and do, or do you want to go to the Olympics

00:39:25.040 or do you want to be healthy and strong and, and, you know, look good or whatever.

00:39:29.080 And for, for the 99% of us who aren't concerned with the last sort of 0.01%, you have a lot more

00:39:36.100 flexibility in how you train.

00:39:37.200 So I, the, the, what I'm thinking of right now is there's, there's some really interesting

00:39:40.720 research from McMaster university that has over the course of about half a dozen studies

00:39:46.060 has compared light, light loads with heavy loads.

00:39:49.400 And the question is, you know, if you look at the standard guidelines and think, you know,

00:39:53.740 I need to be lifting at whatever, 70 or 80 or 90% of my one rep max.

00:39:57.660 Well, what happens if you lift at 30% of what you're one rate max, one rep max?

00:40:02.140 And the answer is if you lift a failure.

00:40:05.160 So if you lift like 25 reps per set, you end up getting virtually the same gains, not a hundred

00:40:12.640 percent identical, not at the sort of at the very edge of the curve, are you getting the

00:40:16.180 absolute most of yourself, but you get pretty much the same gains in muscle and in strength.

00:40:21.360 And that's with 30% one rep max.

00:40:24.740 So with body weights, with body weight exercises, obviously you have, you know, much more, you're

00:40:29.460 much more limited in terms of how you can vary the load.

00:40:31.580 But what this research tells us is, yeah, you know, if you want to do pushups and pull-ups

00:40:36.080 and, and, uh, you know, dips and things like that, you can, you can get a pretty good workout

00:40:40.760 as long as you work hard enough to go to just failure.

00:40:44.200 If you want to take it to, you know, the, the ultimate absolute maximizing the benefits,

00:40:49.860 then you're probably going to want to be able to lift the heavy loads.

00:40:53.100 And particularly I would say for the lower body, there's, it's one thing I, you know,

00:40:57.760 most of us can get a pretty good, good workout.

00:41:00.940 And I'm saying this, this is a dramatic understatement.

00:41:03.580 Most of us don't need to do like 25 pull-ups to reach failure, you know, per set.

00:41:07.860 So it's easy to, to fully challenge yourself with body weight for the upper body for the

00:41:13.640 legs.

00:41:13.960 It's a lot harder.

00:41:14.500 You know, you can try and isolate, you know, one legged Romanian squats or what it said, split

00:41:19.600 squats or whatever, but really to get your legs exercised, I'd say there, it's a lot

00:41:26.100 harder to, to get the full benefits, uh, from a body weight program.

00:41:31.420 So a lot of people exercise because they're trying to counter that sedentary lifestyle

00:41:34.720 they have because they're sitting down at work all day when they're at home, they're

00:41:37.560 kind of not really doing much.

00:41:38.840 And they say, well, I got my exercise in, I moved my body.

00:41:41.040 That's going to counter all that.

00:41:42.480 Is that true?

00:41:43.200 So, but in, in keeping with my pattern, I'll say partly true, but not entirely true.

00:41:49.560 You know, and I'll say this, I'll just say, I'm, I'm, I'm speaking to you here from my

00:41:53.200 adjustable desk.

00:41:54.460 I'm one of the people who, who ended up getting a desk that allows me to stand for part of

00:41:58.280 the day, although certainly not all of it, uh, or, uh, you know, maybe an eighth of the

00:42:02.740 day or something.

00:42:03.700 I, I see, I see fewer headlines about this, uh, these days than, than five or six or seven

00:42:08.560 years ago, all about the dangers of sitting and how sitting is the new smoking and all

00:42:12.320 that.

00:42:13.120 And I think, you know, what your question is getting at is, is, is, is there something

00:42:17.400 that's bad about sitting?

00:42:18.640 That's more than just the fact that you're not exercising.

00:42:21.700 Like, can you, as long as you get enough exercise, can you sit as much as you want?

00:42:25.720 And I would say the evidence suggests that those are two different things.

00:42:28.960 It's like, so you could say, you know, how much do I have to exercise to counterbalance

00:42:34.600 the, the, the negative health effects of smoking?

00:42:37.680 Just to take an obvious example, it's like, well, in terms of life expectancy, maybe there

00:42:42.480 is a number, maybe if you exercise, maybe smoking one cigarette a day will reduce your

00:42:47.700 life expectancy by one year and exercising half an hour a day will increase it by one

00:42:52.240 year.

00:42:53.420 And therefore you can balance the two by smoking one cigarette and exercising one half an hour

00:42:57.440 a day or whatever the case may be.

00:42:59.060 But, but that wouldn't be correct to say that then exercising eliminates the effects of

00:43:03.880 the cigarette.

00:43:04.380 All you're doing is balancing two completely different things.

00:43:06.560 And that's the same is true.

00:43:07.940 I think with sitting and with prolonged sitting and exercising the part of the problem with

00:43:14.560 being working a desk job is yeah, that you're sitting all day.

00:43:17.440 So you're not getting exercise.

00:43:18.460 You're not burning calories that you're not, you know, using your muscles.

00:43:21.720 And so part of the problem with sitting is lack of exercise, but there's another part that

00:43:26.480 seems to be just a direct response to being totally motionless for hours at a time that levels

00:43:33.360 of your muscles basically go into standby mode.

00:43:36.940 They, they, they realize they're not being used that levels of the enzymes that, that

00:43:41.300 draw in, you know, blood sugar and things like that drop.

00:43:45.240 And so you're, you're no longer in a metabolically normal state and your blood sugar is rising.

00:43:50.220 So you have to then secrete insulin to keep it under control.

00:43:53.400 And even if you exercised for an hour that morning, if you're then sitting motionless for

00:43:59.060 eight hours continuously, or for 14 hours, when you add in, you know, your Netflix time that

00:44:02.840 evening, then you're, there's some negative health effects that aren't being balanced just

00:44:08.280 by exercising enough.

00:44:09.640 So it's still not entirely clear what you do to counteract that.

00:44:13.820 Nobody knows like, well, do you have to get up once every hour, once every half hour,

00:44:16.880 once every two hours?

00:44:17.740 Can you get up for 10 seconds or for a minute or five minutes is standing up enough, or do

00:44:22.760 you have to do jumping jacks or go up a flight of stairs?

00:44:25.720 Nobody knows, nobody knows.

00:44:27.080 But I think I would say, you know, a reasonable rule of thumb is, you know, try to get out of

00:44:32.740 your chair at least once an hour.

00:44:34.860 If you have the option to stand up occasionally stand up, you know, you know, once every couple

00:44:39.380 hours.

00:44:40.000 And if you're able to work, you know, work for half an hour standing up.

00:44:42.760 And if you have the, you know, for me, it's like, I actually leave my landline phone downstairs.

00:44:48.660 And so when it rings, it's a pain in the neck, but I have to run downstairs to get it.

00:44:52.260 So it just forces me to, to make sure I don't actually sit at my desk nonstop for all day,

00:44:58.140 except for lunch.

00:44:59.040 I, you know, I, it just makes me go up and down the stairs a couple of times.

00:45:02.320 It's not a workout, but it's, it's just reminding my muscles that, Hey, you can't be

00:45:06.600 in dormant mode.

00:45:07.280 I have to be able to move around.

00:45:08.780 So let's talk about a question that I thought was really fun.

00:45:10.720 You explored was music.

00:45:12.980 Does music help anything when you're working out or is it distract?

00:45:16.760 Yes.

00:45:17.840 To both.

00:45:18.760 Yeah.

00:45:19.140 It's, I think everyone who's ever done a, you know, a workout with the right music pounding

00:45:25.440 either in their ears or over the loudspeaker knows that it can be really, really inspirational.

00:45:29.960 It can, it can really get you in the groove.

00:45:31.760 And so there, there was all this research that tried to identify.

00:45:35.320 It's like, what is the optimum beat of the music?

00:45:38.580 You know, is there a right key that you have to have it in or a genre?

00:45:42.480 What makes good music?

00:45:44.100 And the results always were all over the map.

00:45:46.900 And, you know, so one thing people realized is that music isn't just sound.

00:45:50.740 People have associations with music and the songs that to me might make me remember something,

00:45:58.940 you know, some great moment or a triumph or a girl who dumped me or whatever, like they're

00:46:03.600 different for every person.

00:46:04.580 And so the personal associations you bring to music are really crucial.

00:46:07.720 So there is never going to be a sort of universal playlist of music that makes people run fast

00:46:11.940 or, or lift more weight.

00:46:14.100 But there, but if you find the right music and generally it's up-tempo music and if it

00:46:18.500 has lyrics, it's music that have lyrics that are, you know, if not inspirational, then at

00:46:22.540 least encouraging.

00:46:23.840 It's not sort of a, a sort of, you know, depressing ballad or anything that's unlikely to max out

00:46:29.100 your, your performance.

00:46:30.580 It can definitely help you.

00:46:31.580 And that's, that's been shown over and over again.

00:46:33.640 Now, one, the, the, the caveat that's important to keep in mind is that music can make exercise

00:46:41.480 feel easier.

00:46:43.480 Sometimes it makes it feel easier because you've decided to go easier.

00:46:47.220 So you're like, oh yeah, I was on the bike.

00:46:48.840 I put, put on the tunes and it just felt so easy.

00:46:51.000 And then if you actually look at like the, the power you're up and it's like, oh, it's

00:46:54.180 because I was barely moving my legs because I was focused on the music and listening to

00:46:57.040 the music.

00:46:57.420 And so what they find is the more engaged you are in the music or, you know, with the

00:47:03.600 new comparisons between music and watching a video, watching a video is more engaging.

00:47:07.580 So when you let people self-select their, their exercise intensity, they go easier and easier

00:47:13.260 the more engaged they are.

00:47:14.460 So if it's like a podcast or music or a video that you're really, really into, you're likely

00:47:20.240 to slow down unconsciously.

00:47:21.660 So the sort of additional thing I would say is, first of all, bear in mind, like, you

00:47:28.000 know, keep an eye on your pace or on your effort level, or do a form of exercise.

00:47:33.560 Like if you're on the treadmill and you set it for eight minute miles, then it doesn't

00:47:37.900 matter if you're distracted.

00:47:38.840 And if you get into it, then that's great.

00:47:40.660 It's taking your mind off the effort of maintaining eight minute miles and you're not

00:47:42.960 slowing down.

00:47:43.700 And if you're lifting weights, you know, you're choosing what weight to lift.

00:47:47.000 So it's not like you're like, oh, I didn't even notice I was lifting 10 pounds instead

00:47:51.140 of a hundred pounds.

00:47:52.000 You know, you choose what weight you lift.

00:47:53.200 So it's not a concern.

00:47:53.980 But in the, in those modalities where you're, where you're freely choosing your exercise

00:47:58.620 intensity, it's easy to be like, to drift off, get, and be like, this feels so great.

00:48:03.940 And then realize that's because you're barely working.

00:48:07.020 Yeah.

00:48:07.440 I used to listen to music a lot when I, like all the time when I try, I haven't like for

00:48:11.380 the past few months, I've just sort of naturally have like not turned on the speaker

00:48:15.520 till when I trained and I actually enjoyed a lot more, which is weird.

00:48:19.380 I will, I will definitely avoid, you know, judging either way.

00:48:23.800 Cause people have strong feelings.

00:48:25.100 I'll say for me running, I, it's, it's a time for me to be alone with my thoughts.

00:48:28.760 And I, I love music a lot.

00:48:30.540 And so for me, if I have music, that's where my mind is.

00:48:33.360 I'm following the music.

00:48:34.300 And so I, I value getting outside and running and just letting my mind wander.

00:48:40.080 And it's amazing where, you know, where my mind ends up.

00:48:42.260 And I don't, you know, I, I don't remember most of the time, but it's like, wow, how

00:48:45.600 did I end up thinking about that?

00:48:46.740 And I, I, I have this sort of totally irrational and unfounded belief that that's kind of good

00:48:51.180 for me to, to, to have some time to let my, you know, in this busy, overscheduled world

00:48:54.900 to have some time to let my mind wander free.

00:48:56.960 Yeah.

00:48:57.040 And I tried listening to podcasts while working out and that I just was too distracted.

00:49:01.020 Like I was distracted from the podcast because I was so focused on training that I couldn't

00:49:04.860 listen.

00:49:05.440 And also like the podcast distracted my training.

00:49:08.480 So I just like, that's exactly, I think your experience is, is the classic sort of pitfall

00:49:14.880 of something that's too good and too interesting.

00:49:17.320 You're not giving a hundred percent of attention to either of the things.

00:49:20.240 And those are both things that you would like to be giving a hundred percent of your attention

00:49:22.960 to.

00:49:23.420 Right.

00:49:23.760 The sound of silence.

00:49:24.860 Well, Alex, this has been a lot of fun.

00:49:26.820 There's so many more questions people can read about in the book.

00:49:29.400 Where can people find out more information about what you're doing now and what you're

00:49:32.120 working on?

00:49:33.080 Yeah, probably the easiest, easiest place to find me is on Twitter.

00:49:35.540 My, uh, my handle is sweat science, all one word.

00:49:38.720 And that's where I post, you know, anything I find interesting or new articles that I've

00:49:41.880 written.

00:49:42.380 I do have a website, alexhutchinson.net, where there's sort of obscure details about my long

00:49:47.960 buried past.

00:49:48.500 Like the fact that I wrote a book called, which comes first, cardio or weights.

00:49:51.360 So, uh, those are probably the two, the two best places to go.

00:49:54.300 Awesome.

00:49:54.440 Well, Alex, thanks so much for your time.

00:49:55.380 It's been a pleasure.

00:49:55.920 Thanks, Brad.

00:49:56.600 I really, uh, really enjoyed the conversation.

00:49:58.380 My guest here is Alex Hutchinson.

00:49:59.560 He's the author of the book, which comes first, cardio or weights and his latest book, indoor.

00:50:04.000 Check them out.

00:50:04.460 They're both available on Amazon.

00:50:05.800 You can find out more information about his work at his website, alexhutchinson.com or

00:50:09.080 follow him on Twitter at, at sweat science and check out our show notes at aom.is slash

00:50:13.660 fitness FAQ, where you can find links to resources, where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:50:17.160 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast.

00:50:26.880 Check out our website at artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives, as

00:50:30.180 well as thousands of articles we've written over the years, including articles on fitness

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The Art of Manliness - August 28, 2019

#538： Research-Backed Answers to All Your Fitness FAQs

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