#538： Research-Backed Answers to All Your Fitness FAQs
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Summary
Which should you do first when you workout? Cardio or weights? How long does it take to get in shape? How important is your form when you run? Does exercise really contribute to fat loss? Does music help or hurt your athletic performance? These are the kinds of questions folks have about exercise, but often have trouble finding good answers to. My guest today set out to cut through the noise by finding the best research-backed answers to these questions and more in his new book, "Which Comes First: Cardio and Weights? Fitness Myths, Training Truths, and Other Surprising Discoveries from the Science of Exercise." His name is Alex Hutchinson, and he started out as a Cambridge-trained physicist and a long distance runner on the Canadian National Team. He is now a journalist and author.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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Does music help or hurt your athletic performance?
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These are the kinds of questions folks have about exercise,
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but often have trouble finding good answers to.
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The advice out there on blogs and magazines is often confusing and contradictory.
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My guest today set out to cut through the noise
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by finding the best research-backed answers to these questions and more in his book,
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Fitness myths, training truths, and other surprising discoveries from the science of exercise.
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His name is Alex Hutchinson, and he started out as a Cambridge-trained physicist
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and a long-distance runner on the Canadian national team,
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Today on the show, Alex walks us through what the scientific literature says
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about some of the most common fitness and health questions out there.
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This is a fun, interesting conversation packed with lots of useful insights,
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Will your own theories and practices be confirmed or challenged?
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Check out our show notes at aom.is slash fitnessfaq.
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So we had you on the podcast last year to talk about your book, Endure,
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which is about the science of athletic performance.
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I recently picked up, and that's episode number 382, for those who want to check that out.
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I recently picked up a book you published back in 2011.
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So your book's called, Which Comes First, Cardio or Weights?
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Fitness Myths, Training Truths, and Other Surprising Discoveries from the Science of Exercise.
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And in it, you take these questions people often wonder about in regards to fitness,
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and you see these varied answers, you know, in blogs and in magazines,
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and then you dig into the research to try to offer well-vetted answers.
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So I wanted to bring you back on to discuss some of this stuff,
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because I know a lot of people have these questions,
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So let's talk about the question that you use for the title of your book.
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The answer, of course, is, you know, it depends, and the answer is both.
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But in terms of which one you should do first, when I wrote the book, there was an emerging
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area of research, which was looking at the molecular signals that are triggered by exercise.
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So why is it that when I lift a weight, you know, my muscles know to get bigger,
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and when I go for a run, my muscles know to produce more mitochondria so that they improve
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Well, there's a set of molecular signals, one of which, and there's basically two pathways.
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One pathway helps triggers strength gains, and the other pathway triggers endurance gains.
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And there's some really neat evidence that shows that these pathways are kind of conflicting
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with each other, that if you start out and set your body for build strength, it takes
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some time to switch it to the build endurance setting of molecular pathways.
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And so that argument kind of backs up the conventional wisdom, which is that whichever
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is most important to you is what you should do first.
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So people have said that for a long time, because it's like, well, if you want to build
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strength, you shouldn't do it after your cardio, because then you're going to be tired,
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and you're not going to be able to lift as much.
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But this was adding some molecular heft to that, which was that actually you're setting
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your cells to adapt to whichever one you do first.
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Now, the updated view on that, so this book came out in 2011, and most of what is in the
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book I think is still absolutely current, but there's a few areas which we may get to
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where I think where I would update my thinking.
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And my updated thinking on that is that these molecular effects are real, but they're far
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less important than what's convenient for an individual person.
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And we're talking about for 99.9% of people, maybe not for an Olympic athlete, but for most
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of us, I think the differences are so small now as the studies have progressed, that it's
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like, if you're forcing yourself to do something in an order that is less fun or less convenient
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for you to get that 0.1 or 0.5% benefit, you may be shooting yourself in the foot.
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So I'll give you an example, I do, you know, running is my sport and I do running, running
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But when I do strength training, which I do as sort of body weight circuits in a local
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park, I do that before my run, because I know that if I go for my run and I, if I have
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45 minutes to work out, I will run for 44 and a half minutes and then be like, okay, now
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I have 30 seconds, I'm going to do three pushups.
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So I forced myself to do the thing that's less fun for me to make sure that I don't cut it
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And then that's my practical answer, which is the differences are too small to worry about.
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So for most of us, you should do whatever is convenient, whatever is fun, whatever works
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So the takeaway is that if you're really focused on optimizing your fitness modality, then
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So if you're really into weightlifting, then you do your lifting first and then cardio.
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And if you're focused on running, then it's the reverse.
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But really, it's probably the most important thing to do is whatever order works best for
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And of course, this all assumes you're trying to do both on the same day.
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I mean, you can do them at separate times and it is common sense, right?
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All of us tend to kind of eat dessert first in the sense of do whatever is most important
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And I think the science, the sort of microbiology backs that view up.
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But ultimately, you should let your order be dictated by, yeah, whatever works best for
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So a lot of people start working out because they want to get in shape.
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Now, let's talk about that word, that phrase, get in shape, because that can mean different
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What are you talking about when you say get in shape?
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Yeah, I mean, the phrase has that sort of meaning baked into it.
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We're talking about the shape of the body, right?
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And really, getting fit or getting in shape means different things to different people.
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I don't think there's one right answer, but I think it's important to be honest with yourself
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and to think carefully about what it is you're looking for.
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For me, I've gone through different stages in my life.
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When I was a seriously competitive runner, getting fit meant how fast can I run a mile?
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I didn't care if I looked like Jabba the Hutt, if I could run a fast mile.
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As time has gone on, my focus is more on health and longevity and being functional and competent
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And if I go on a canoe trip or whatever, being able to lift the canoe over my head.
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So it's a mix of some things that are visible, like, can I get out of a chair without falling
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And some things that are invisible, like, what is my blood pressure or whatever?
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And then there's the third factor, which is aesthetics, which it's easy to talk down.
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And I would encourage people not to make that their primary goal.
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But it's also, let's be honest, it is a factor that's important to people and has to be considered.
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And there's not one right answer for what being fit means.
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So if you're going to say, does this workout program work?
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And I think the biggest thing is that a lot of people are judging their fitness purely
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off what they see on the scale or in the mirror.
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And they're making the erroneous conclusion that, oh, man, this workout program is pointless.
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And you're like, actually, your life expectancy just increased by 10 years over the last six
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You may not see that in the mirror on the scale.
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But if you understand that there's these other markers that are super important in the
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long term, I think that's helpful to remember and helps to encourage people to stick with
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So yeah, let's dig into this a little bit more.
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So as you said, as soon as you start exercising, you are experiencing benefits on a molecular
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You might not improve your running time after a workout.
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Or you might not increase your bench press max after a workout.
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Say if your goal is to endurance, improve your endurance, how long does it take for people
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to see improvements on that after they start exercising?
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And I would say, just to go back to what you said during the question, is there's this
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spectrum of like, if you do one workout and then you do like a glucose challenge test,
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see how much your insulin is going to rise in response to a set level of drinking a set
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level of sugar, you have already gotten healthier.
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Like one workout is already changing your body's ability to manage its blood sugar.
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On the flip side, you know, there's been studies where people do things like, okay, let's take
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a bunch of, you know, popular exercise programs that are advertised, you know, body for life
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And let's put a bunch of people through the six week program that is going to transform
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you from the 97 pound weakling and yada, yada, yada.
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And then they have put people in front of a jury, you know, people have to judge the pictures
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of before and after and try and figure which one's before, which one's after, see if there's
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And the bottom line is for the, in the vast majority of cases, people can't tell a difference
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Like they've worked hard for six weeks and, and the, the promised gains for all, but a
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If you're talking about endurance, which is of course my sort of specialty, you can absolutely
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see changes in your fitness within two or three weeks.
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If you look, if you're measuring carefully enough, there's, there's, it's actually, it's
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Like when you start lifting weights, you very quickly start to see some strength gains.
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That's mostly from like within, you know, a week or whatever.
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Your, your brain is getting better at sending signals to your muscles within about two or
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You can see if you're measuring with an accurate enough device that your muscles are getting
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Now there's arguments right now, but is that really bigger muscles or is that just like
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muscle damage causing a little bit of inflammation?
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And that's, that, that's an area of ongoing debate, but certainly within let's say four
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weeks or something, your muscles are getting bigger.
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It's just not this kind of change that, that is, you know, visible when you're walking down
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Now, so how quickly it takes depends a little bit on how hard you're willing to work.
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And so in some of the studies that see the really early muscle gain, we're talking
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like four workouts a week supervised by a personal trainer who is, you know, yelling at you and
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If you don't lift hard enough, it's not, well, I mean, I'm exaggerating you in case
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that's not clear, but it's definitely four workouts a week, very hard.
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And it's not something that's sustainable for most people, especially if they're not
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So my, my, my rule of thumb is if you want to see benefits, you, you should, you should just
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not even worry about where you are until six months.
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After six months, that's the time to say, okay, is this working the way I think it is
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If you're, if you're, if you're taking the pot off the stove after two months, you just
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Are you saying like six months is for improvement in fitness or improvement in aesthetics or
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For aesthetics, I would say six months is the bare minimum, unless you're, you're first
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And second of all, like going from an untrained state, you know, you've been locked in a cell
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And now you're really starting to, to train six days a week or something.
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Then, you know, you're going to see changes much more quickly, but I would say for, for
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For, for, for changing fitness and strength and endurance and health, you know, we're
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talking weeks, although, you know, it's, it's a dose response.
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It's small changes in weeks, bigger changes in months, huge changes in years.
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So that's, that's good to know that manages the expectations for people.
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Well, let's talk about, let's say you stopped exercising for whatever reason, maybe you
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get injured or you get really busy and you can't get to the gym or you take a longer
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So there's, you know, it depends on your definition of unfit.
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And, and one thing is that the longer you've been training, the longer your fitness is going
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to longer, you can kind of skate by with minimal training.
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Part of that is that again, speaking of endurance, it's like, there are some things that are sort
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of ephemeral, like the mitochondrial content of your cells is a big factor in endurance and that
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But there are other things that are structural, like your, you've, your heart is bigger and
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stronger and you've grown more capillaries to deliver blood to your muscles.
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Those things aren't going to disappear in two weeks.
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Those structural changes, structural changes are going to last for quite a while.
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If you, if you put on a bunch of muscle, it doesn't just melt away.
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And if you don't work out for two or three weeks, it may, you may lose a little strength
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in that your, your, your neuromuscular signal isn't, isn't as good, but that muscle is still
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So, you know, to me that there's like, you know, again, it depends on the person, the
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context, but like you can go two weeks without exercising.
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And aside from being a bit rusty, you're not going to lose a ton.
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If you go four weeks without exercising, then you've lost a lot.
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That's, that's the sort of range where four weeks is a lot.
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And if you're time pressed, one of the things that the research shows is that a couple of
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hard workouts, you know, maybe twice a week, it doesn't have to be a long period of time,
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but if you push yourself, maybe just twice a week that can maintain fitness for much,
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You get people who are training, you know, six days a week, and then you say, okay, now
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you can only train half an hour at a time, twice a week.
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And if you, if you push it for that half an hour, twice a week, you can maintain your
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fitness for a surprisingly long, you know, like a month or whatever.
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And I imagine the same thing is there's something similar in it with strength training, which
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is that, you know, even if you're used to maintaining a high load, as long as you're
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able to, you know, shock those muscles once or twice a week, you're going to do a lot
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So I guess the message I'm trying to get across is here is that it's not all or nothing.
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Therefore I'm going to lie on the sofa and eat Cheetos.
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If you can find 15 minutes to get out there and hammer, even if it's a couple, just a
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couple of times a week, that, that will do a lot to make sure that you can pick up your
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fit, your routine again, four weeks later or whatever it is, or three weeks later when
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That's what I do whenever, um, I just exercise even when I don't have time just so I can
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So like when I went on vacation this summer, I didn't have access to a gym, so I didn't have
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So what I did instead was did like a 15 minute body circuit workout.
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So it was like pull-ups, body squats, push-ups, and just went really, really hard on that.
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Did it three times a week, helped my work capacity go up and I maintained that habit.
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So when I got back home, like it wasn't like, oh man, I got to start this all over again.
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I think, I think that's a super important point.
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Like I've come to the, one, one of the sort of areas where my thinking has, has drifted a
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little bit or evolved a little bit is I've just come to believe that the, the habit forming
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elements and the psychology of exercise is so much more important than we sometimes think that we
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get, you know, we get focused on like how many reps should I do at what percentage of my max.
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And, you know, those things make a difference, but so much more important is understanding what
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it is that will enable you to maintain a consistent program, whatever that program is.
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So similar to you, like one of the things that I've, I find is, you know, I get super
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busy and stressed out and think I don't have time to run today.
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Well, one of the ways I fight against that is that I say, I say, sometimes I'm like, I'm
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Now that's ludicrous because I, I used to run an hour a day and even these days I like
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to get out for at least half an hour, five minutes.
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It seems stupid even just when you think of the time it takes to change and shower, but I
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And if, if I go out for five minutes and I come back and that's it, then it's like,
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okay, that hasn't done a ton for me, but it's maintained my habit.
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And of course, often once I get out for five minutes, I'm like, am I really so busy that
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So I'll just end up getting my 20 minute run in.
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But even if I don't, I've, I've kept that routine going and haven't just gotten into the
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And if I'm so stressed and busy that five minutes is all I feel I can handle, then that's fine.
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So something's better than nothing is the takeaway.
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That's, that's probably like, if there's one message that people take away from, from all
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of this, and this is an answer to so many questions, it's like, yeah, we can optimize, you know,
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up the wazoo, but ultimately something is always better than nothing.
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And for a large fraction of people, they're doing nothing or, or, or they're trying to do
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They're, they're, they're not, they're, they're not realizing that, you know, Hey, sometimes you
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can't do what's perfect, but you got to, if you do something, you're going to be way,
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That idea of something better than nothing, like that can go to how, which sort of fitness
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Cause a lot of people feel like, well, I, I should do this, but they don't enjoy it.
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So like find something you actually like doing and you're going to be more likely to do it.
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And now it might not be, you know, Instagram worthy where you can like show yourself, you
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know, running a sub two hour marathon or deadlifting 700 pounds.
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But like, if you're taking a hike or you're playing ultimate Frisbee, you know, a couple
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And it's, and it's actually in many ways, it's better than like even very good options,
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because if it's something you're going to keep doing for the next 20 years, then that's
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And so again, like that's when I, again, this is an area I've been writing about for, you
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And in, in my evolution of thought, I, I now tend to put a lot more emphasis on factors
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on things like that, on the finding something sustainable rather than optimizing the details.
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And if I love optimizing the details, it's, it's, it's what interests me.
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And I'm, that's, that's my bread and butter in terms of what I write about, but I'm really
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conscious now of trying to make sure that people don't take the message that,
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just because I spent a thousand words writing about, you know, whether you should run at
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this pace or 10 seconds faster per mile or whatever, that doesn't mean that's what's
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The 99% is, yeah, find something you like doing and do it.
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A lot of people start exercising, they want to lose weight, but I think everyone's seen
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those reports or research that shows that exercise doesn't contribute much to fat loss.
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I'll confess that I am a sort of minor, maybe a minority opinion on this.
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I don't buy that stuff, or at least I would add the caveat when people, when people say
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exercise doesn't contribute much to weight loss, what they're really saying is exercise
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at the levels that they're willing to do in these studies doesn't contribute much to
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You know, if, and, and this is not true of all studies, but most studies are relatively
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just like, oh, you know, we had these people walking for half an hour, five days a week,
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One is that, okay, maybe they only lost a couple of pounds, but I bet their metabolic
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So there's, there's huge value to, to walking half an hour, five times a week.
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But the other thing is like, if you want to say exercise doesn't contribute to weight
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loss, come, come and run with my training group for, for a couple of years.
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And, you know, this is a huge debate, like, are, are, are runners skinny because they're
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naturally destined to be skinny and that's why they're runners or, or, or are they skinny
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because there's something about running 80 miles a week that makes you skinny?
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And I think there's probably a bit, a bit of both.
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I had a, I remember like 10 years ago, I had a conversation with Gary Taubes about this
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and his argument was, yeah, you know, it's running doesn't make you skinny.
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It's just that people who are skinny end up running and that, that may be true in a lot
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of cases, but everyone who's been in a running group has also seen people who are overweight
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join the group, stick with it over the long period of time.
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It's hard, but, but, and, and end up dropping large amounts of weight.
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So, so my belief is that, you know, absolutely it's weight loss is far more complicated than
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just, oh, if you do more exercise, you'll burn more calories and then you'll lose weight
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because there are all sorts of compensating factors.
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There's behavioral compensators, like the fact that you're, you know, you, if you're,
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And there's also sort of invisible compensating factors, changes in your metabolism that fight
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So, so it's absolutely complicated, but if you're burning enough calories through exercise,
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I absolutely believe it's a, it's a contributing factor to, it can be a contributing factor to
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Although you shouldn't, you, that doesn't mean you should be out eating Twinkies nonetheless.
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And the one other thing that I think is maybe underappreciated is there's a pretty significant
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body of literature that suggests that in people who exercise at least a moderate amount,
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they're better at matching their appetite cues to their caloric needs.
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So, you know, obviously like a thousand years ago, people just ate when they were hungry or they
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ate when they could get food or whatever, but, but even when they had access to relatively copious
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food, they, they didn't necessarily eat more than they needed.
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And there's, there's some interesting evidence that suggests when you look at appetite cues and,
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and, and feel freely chosen food intake, people who exercise tend to be more able to
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And when, and when you get to people who are completely sedentary, that, that system kind
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of breaks and they no longer, their appetite cues are no longer in tune.
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Somehow something about exercise keeps that intake and outflow balance better.
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So, so in that sense, exercise's main benefit may be not that it burns extra calories, but
00:21:18.840
that it helps calibrate your, your sense of appetite to the amount of calories you actually
00:21:23.520
We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors and now back to the
00:21:28.740
Well, and you also talk about that the type of exercise might increase or D or might increase
00:21:35.240
There's a lot of people think, well, I'm going to lose some weight.
00:21:36.980
I'm just going to get on the treadmill and get in that fat burning zone for an hour and
00:21:42.380
But you say like people forget like strength training often contributes more to fat loss than,
00:21:49.740
Well, there's, and there's the fat burning zone, boy, you just pushed a red button
00:21:54.700
I mean, there's a few, there's, there's different things for one thing.
00:21:57.580
If you build muscle, muscle is very metabolically active and helps burn calories and control
00:22:03.680
So, so having more muscle is, is a huge advantage for controlling weight.
00:22:07.700
There's also, you know, obviously high intensity interval training is, is, has been a big trend
00:22:12.460
over the last 10 years and doing high intensity work can contribute to extra calorie burn that
00:22:21.220
So, but I mean, in terms of the fat burning zone, I mean, there is some truth to the fact
00:22:27.860
that if you go relatively easily on a treadmill, then you will, or, or, or in whatever, whatever,
00:22:35.300
And what, if, if you're, if your intensity of exercise is low, you'll burn mostly fat.
00:22:39.540
And if you're, if, as you push and go harder and harder, you'll start to burn a higher and
00:22:44.080
higher percentage of carbohydrate, but it's a total misinterpretation to think, ah, therefore
00:22:49.600
I should exercise as easily as possible so that I'm burning 90% fat instead of 10% fat.
00:22:53.780
Because if you're going really easily, you're the total number of calories you're burning
00:23:00.100
So then you're like, well, I'm burning 90% of 10 calories an hour.
00:23:03.500
It's better to be burning 50% fat at a hundred calories an hour.
00:23:07.860
So, and the only reason, I mean, in theory, if you want to burn the most fat, you should
00:23:14.240
Now, the problem is you can't sustain sprinting all out for, you know, more than a few minutes.
00:23:19.280
You can't, you can't say I'm going to sprint for an hour.
00:23:21.920
So the way a lot of exercise programs evolve is to have evolved is to try and balance that
00:23:28.060
to have a mix of intensity, high intensity and low intensity so that you're accumulating
00:23:35.300
You're mixing up, you're hitting different energy systems, and that's going to maximize
00:23:39.180
the amount of calories you're able to burn overall during an exercise program.
00:23:43.680
Now, the other thing I would say about fat burning zones, not to complicate it even more
00:23:46.600
is ultimately, although this is, again, a controversial area of debate in research, I don't think it
00:23:54.420
If you burn carbohydrates, if you burn fat, it's all essentially one big pot in terms of
00:24:00.940
the fuel that is then coming in from your next meal.
00:24:04.600
If you've burned your carbohydrate stores, then your next meal is going to go to replenishing
00:24:09.860
those carbohydrate stores rather than filling up your fat stores.
00:24:13.180
So whether you burn carbs or fat is just, again, one of those details where it's,
00:24:16.600
like, if we can go back to doing something is better than nothing, I wouldn't, like, say,
00:24:21.820
oh, I need to be at 65% of my heart rate, not 72%.
00:24:25.260
It's like, dude, do whatever is fun and sustainable, and that's going to be your best bet rather
00:24:34.420
Yeah, and the whole, as you were talking, it made me think, I think a lot of people, when
00:24:38.180
they think fat burning zone, there's also a misconception of how metabolism works.
00:24:43.400
They're thinking, oh, I'm in the fat burning zone, I'm burning stored fat right now.
00:24:48.220
You're probably burning dietary fat that you consumed, you know, last night at dinner.
00:24:52.620
So you're not even touching your fat stores yet.
00:24:54.880
Yeah, if, and, you know, this maybe goes to another question, but it's like, no, you can't,
00:25:00.620
you know, I'm doing core exercises, so therefore I'm burning the fat off my belly or whatever.
00:25:07.100
You're burning from the giant pot of energy you have.
00:25:11.000
You can't target or spot burn fat from specific areas.
00:25:17.420
All right, so those Instagram influencers, don't listen to them.
00:25:21.360
Who knew that they weren't, you know, fonts of knowledge.
00:25:24.960
Well, let's talk about endurance, just sort of endurance athletics, endurance fitness,
00:25:31.800
One question you explore is whether there's a correct or incorrect way to run.
00:25:35.860
I think people who do 5Ks or marathons, they've probably read books on how they should improve
00:25:43.820
Is there anything to that, or is there just run however your body feels naturally it wants
00:25:48.960
Yeah, this is, again, you've successfully picked like a third rail topic that gets people
00:25:56.560
What I would say is there is no quote unquote correct way to run.
00:26:01.780
I will acknowledge that there are some incorrect ways to run.
00:26:04.480
So there's not one way you should run, but there are some things to be avoided.
00:26:09.240
And, you know, the classic one would be overstriding.
00:26:12.080
You often see less experienced runners taking these big, long steps, crashing down on their
00:26:21.700
It's not, it's not, it's harder on the, on the joints.
00:26:25.440
I would say in most cases, if you just spend some time running, your body, the feedback you
00:26:31.860
get from your body will help you iron out those problems that you will, you will sort
00:26:35.860
of naturally evolve into a fairly efficient and fairly comfortable running stride.
00:26:43.400
Now, if you see me run, you will say, dude, you should have like learned to run properly.
00:26:49.420
And that's, people have been telling me that for a long time.
00:26:51.440
Um, so I, I, you know, I, I'm open to the, there are running coaches out there who, who
00:26:58.420
I'm open to the idea that they may have some useful tips for some people.
00:27:02.000
Certainly there's lots of satisfied customers out there who were like, I used to run, you
00:27:06.640
know, like a, like a hippopotamus with a broken leg.
00:27:09.440
Now I, I flow down the street, just feels wonderful.
00:27:13.520
In, in the, in the scientific realm, in the, in the, if we look at studies of running
00:27:19.560
form, of making changes to running form to see if you can become more efficient, the
00:27:24.860
general consensus is whenever you make a change to someone's running form, they become less
00:27:30.140
efficient and it becomes harder to, to like, it's mentally harder.
00:27:34.880
And it's also, even when people feel it's actually better, it's measurably less efficient.
00:27:39.360
So I'm still a believer in mostly just run how you feel.
00:27:46.040
And if, but maybe if a knowledgeable observer tells you you're doing something crazily wrong,
00:27:50.940
you know, you've got your arms completely straight by your sides or behind your head
00:27:54.900
or something like that, there may be some useful advice to you.
00:27:58.600
I guess, you know, sorry not to ramble on in this, but I, I do remember watching the New
00:28:02.740
York marathon one year and, you know, I'm a fan of the elite side of the sport.
00:28:06.740
So I usually watch on TV and see, and the cameras focus 90% of the time on, you know,
00:28:11.380
the lead pack and they're all running, you know, with these smooth, beautiful strides,
00:28:15.220
but a couple of times watching with friends on the sidelines and, you know, cheering on
00:28:19.660
the people who are not just running two hour marathons, but who are running three hours
00:28:24.160
And it's like, okay, I'll admit it at the five hour range.
00:28:28.080
You're seeing some people with some pretty peculiar running form sometimes, not everybody, but,
00:28:31.720
but you occasionally you'll see people like, ah, I, I bet I could give a tip to that
00:28:36.380
person that might help them run a little more smoothly.
00:28:38.780
So it's not that it's impossible to improve, but I think in, in general, most of these pieces
00:28:44.540
of advice, like you have to have a running cadence of 180 steps per minute, or you must
00:28:48.920
ensure that your feet land in this particular way, like on the, on the toes rather than on
00:28:54.080
A lot of them have these sort of bio plausible narratives where it sounds reasonable, but
00:28:58.520
the more research you do and the more you test it, the more you find it's like, ah, actually
00:29:07.840
So if there is a perfect running form, we, we haven't really identified how to, what
00:29:16.560
What's the state of barefoot running these days?
00:29:18.920
I remember like when this book came out, it was huge.
00:29:20.860
Like I, I was one of those guys who bought Vibram five fingers and they've been in the
00:29:29.620
Is it as big or people kind of like cooled on it?
00:29:34.000
I think what a lot of people found is that they got hurt.
00:29:40.180
And for the people who succeeded, I think I would say, uh, you know, I'm generalizing
00:29:44.180
here, obviously, but I think the people who succeeded did a transition or, or learn to
00:29:50.500
So gradually that they probably could have learned to run in, in combat boots, you know,
00:29:55.120
doing the same thing just by, by giving their body plenty of time to adapt to a new movement
00:30:00.780
Now there, there's a lot fewer people out there running in Vibrams or running barefoot than
00:30:08.220
That being said, the whole running shoe market has changed as a result of that.
00:30:13.620
What was for, for a long time that it was this over-engineered, you know, this idea, you have
00:30:24.160
And these, all these big pieces of plastic stuck inside the shoe, minimalism, absolute
00:30:29.700
pure minimalism, running bare feet, which makes a lot of sense from a sort of logical and
00:30:33.560
evolutionary perspective turned out to be something that's very, very hard for most people to
00:30:37.000
do if they've grown up in, in, you know, Western society.
00:30:39.760
But what, what, that, that forced, that, that whole movement forced shoe companies to sort
00:30:46.240
of look inward and reflect and say, are these, are these shoes we're selling?
00:30:53.320
And, you know, I would say the general answer was, uh, a lot of what we're doing is not really
00:30:58.840
So maybe we should simplify shoes, make them a little lighter, make them a little more flexible
00:31:02.780
and more sort of able to move naturally like the foot.
00:31:05.780
And so I certainly am one person who I didn't go minimalist, but I run in much lighter shoes
00:31:12.660
And the array of shoes that are available to people in stores is a lot different and
00:31:18.080
And I think that's, that's good because even if not everyone runs in the same shoe, there's
00:31:22.140
a, there's a bigger menu of options available to people now to, to find a shoe that, that
00:31:28.400
And that, that makes, that makes them feel good running.
00:31:30.540
So another part of the, when you talked about running in the book, you talked about, is
00:31:37.080
And you likened it to a Yeti because you, a lot of people talk about it, but not a lot
00:31:43.140
I remember like a few years ago, I got really into running and I never felt like, I always
00:31:49.820
So does a runner's high actually exist or is that overblown?
00:31:56.300
I think the people who reported are legit, but I think I feel the, the reason I feel
00:32:00.740
bad is precisely because of what you're saying.
00:32:02.380
People are like, people who get into running are like, oh man, I'll get this amazing, like
00:32:08.060
And then like, no, actually I just want to like lie down and pass out that I don't feel
00:32:12.700
And I've, I've been running for a billion years and I, you know, I've never experienced
00:32:19.040
Is it a sort of feeling of satisfaction that, you know, life is good.
00:32:22.980
And it's hard to separate that from maybe I'm just feeling like, Hey, I just went out
00:32:28.880
I achieved a goal that I'd set for myself and I've done something good today.
00:32:33.640
Is that just because I, I did that or is it because my brain chemistry has changed?
00:32:38.340
And it took me a while to sort of conclude that, yeah, there's probably some brain chemistry
00:32:42.780
I'm just a little calmer after, after, if I get a run done in the morning, um, yeah, I just
00:32:50.060
So the, the, the research on runner's high, I mean, it's hard because, because the sort
00:32:54.200
of euphoric high is so rare, it's hard to study it because there's so few people who,
00:33:00.820
But what they, what they, there have been a lot of studies and the, the consensus now,
00:33:04.900
or at least the, the, the sort of feeling now is that it's not just, you know, endorphins
00:33:11.780
There's actually a whole bunch of different things.
00:33:13.460
There's endocannabinoids, which are basically the body's version of marijuana.
00:33:18.440
And, you know, endorphins, which are the body's version of opioids like morphine and, and there's
00:33:24.400
various other chemicals like dopamine and all of these to different degrees in different
00:33:28.300
people are stimulated by prolonged exercise that's moderately hard.
00:33:35.140
So what, if you, if you're sprinting, you don't get the same change in brain chemistry.
00:33:38.940
If you're really just, you know, going out for a brisk walk, you don't get that same
00:33:43.040
So I think that's why it's tends to be runner's high is that running just happens to be an
00:33:48.440
activity that favors, you know, you to, to go out and be able to be moderately hard for
00:33:54.900
It's not like cycling where you can just take your feet off the pedals.
00:33:57.260
So you tend to coast a little more, the intensity tends to be a little lower.
00:34:01.160
It's not like swimming where you're, if you're like me, at least you have to work relatively
00:34:08.260
And I think for most people, it's, it's a much more subtle change in mood or change in
00:34:14.080
brain chemistry that, that may not happen with everyone for sure.
00:34:17.240
And that may be more of a cumulative thing too, that it's something that over time it
00:34:21.740
changes your mood, but yeah, the sort of, you know, I'm floating through the universe
00:34:27.600
Uh, I, I personally have never met anyone who experienced that.
00:34:31.360
Well, and those brain boosting or mood boosting benefits of cardio are one reason why,
00:34:35.300
why strength athletes should also incorporate cardio into their workout programming.
00:34:41.180
I mean, I think, yeah, I can give you a lot of reasons that I think, uh, a little bit
00:34:47.780
One of them is that, yeah, the most reliable, you know, for, for any benefit of exercise,
00:34:51.680
there's usually a set of studies of different forms of exercise saying, oh yeah, well, you
00:34:56.860
can get this from strength training too, or you can get this from, you know, circuit training
00:35:02.120
And I think there's, there's some truth to that, but the most reliable way of getting
00:35:05.300
getting the mood changing benefits of exercise is definitely the vast majority of the research
00:35:11.860
And that extends to, for things like cognitive benefits.
00:35:14.140
Cause you know, there's, as, as a guy in my mid forties, as, you know, staring down the
00:35:17.680
tunnel of life, I'm starting to read more studies about like, Hey, how do I keep my marbles
00:35:21.820
as I, as I get older, you know, try and stave off cognitive decline.
00:35:26.680
There's very good evidence for, for aerobic exercise, stimulating brain growth factors
00:35:32.920
There's also evidence for resistance training, but they're different pathways.
00:35:36.280
So you're not, you're missing out on something if you're not doing some aerobic exercise.
00:35:40.340
And then, you know, moving outside the brain, there's also some of the metabolic benefits
00:35:45.180
It's just, it's clear that resistance training is really healthy for you in a lot of different
00:35:50.120
ways, but it doesn't max out your benefits in terms of keeping your blood pressure and
00:35:54.540
your blood sugar levels and things like that at optimal levels.
00:35:57.980
All right, let's move over to strength training.
00:35:59.620
You talk about the core now for the past decade, we've probably, everyone's probably seen, you
00:36:05.180
know, magazine articles, blog posts, infomercials about strengthening your core.
00:36:09.280
What exactly is the core and do exercise help anything with that?
00:36:13.260
Yeah, so I would say anything that's gotten as much hype as the core has gotten in the
00:36:18.640
last decade or so is, is almost by definition overhyped.
00:36:22.260
Like it's important, but it's not like more important than, you know, your feet muscles
00:36:27.140
or whatever, like you want to be stable while you have to have, you know, strong, there's
00:36:33.420
All those have to be strong and balanced and stable too, if you're going to have good balance.
00:36:37.460
So, so core is, is, uh, it's important and it's just one of those things that maybe caught
00:36:46.700
But I think people tend to think of the core as like, it's a six pack.
00:36:50.680
Like if you have a good six pack, you have a good core and that's, that's too narrow a
00:36:55.820
view because really what you want when you talk about core from a functional point of view
00:37:00.000
is you want something that's giving you stability, uh, that's, that's, you know, allow it, giving
00:37:04.480
you a good base from which to, to use your strength.
00:37:07.480
And so you have to kind of broaden the definition just from, from the abs out to the, the, the
00:37:14.920
And, you know, there've been a bunch of interesting studies that look at, uh, you know, in, in
00:37:20.980
running, for example, in looks at, look at things like knee injuries, runner's knee, and
00:37:25.840
find that there's a really strong correlation between, you know, runner's knee problems and
00:37:31.000
weak hips that if you don't have strong hips, you're, you're more likely to have your knees
00:37:36.280
turning inwards when you run and putting strain on, on that knee joint.
00:37:39.640
So that's a, that's a, you know, one example of a case where, yeah, if you don't have a
00:37:45.060
strong core that can manifest in problems in other places in your body.
00:37:51.780
Or what I think what the, the thing to avoid is to interpret that as you should do a ton
00:37:58.200
Cause those crunches are just exercising those superficial muscles on your abs that don't
00:38:05.020
So there's better core exercises and there's also a sort of a broader definition of, of,
00:38:10.920
of what the core is and, and, you know, how, how broad it might be.
00:38:15.100
So at a certain point, once you're doing, you know, hip exercises and pelvic exercises and
00:38:19.700
back exercises, then it's like, well, I'm not really exercising the core anymore.
00:38:24.860
This is part of a good balanced exercise program.
00:38:28.220
And you, I mean, you could work the core quote unquote, just by doing deadlifts and squats.
00:38:32.100
Cause that engages the hips, the lower back in that ab, that ab part.
00:38:40.580
If you, if you can do those well, yeah, that's a pretty good sign that your core is in good shape.
00:38:45.060
So no, no plank, you don't have to do no planks required if you don't want to.
00:38:48.500
I mean, you know, planks are not the worst thing in the world, but, but yeah, if, if, if you're
00:38:53.320
deadlifting and squatting, then that's, that's going to be challenging your core in, in all
00:39:00.820
Are those just as beneficial as weight training?
00:39:03.140
I'm imagining the answer to this, this sort of conversation, the way it's been going is
00:39:08.480
Or, or since I answered every question, well, it depends then, you know, yeah, you can see where
00:39:12.520
Um, yeah, I would say, I think this is, this is, uh, you know, an important point for,
00:39:19.700
Do you want to be, you know, Mr. Olympia or, and do, or do you want to go to the Olympics
00:39:25.040
or do you want to be healthy and strong and, and, you know, look good or whatever.
00:39:29.080
And for, for the 99% of us who aren't concerned with the last sort of 0.01%, you have a lot more
00:39:37.200
So I, the, the, what I'm thinking of right now is there's, there's some really interesting
00:39:40.720
research from McMaster university that has over the course of about half a dozen studies
00:39:46.060
has compared light, light loads with heavy loads.
00:39:49.400
And the question is, you know, if you look at the standard guidelines and think, you know,
00:39:53.740
I need to be lifting at whatever, 70 or 80 or 90% of my one rep max.
00:39:57.660
Well, what happens if you lift at 30% of what you're one rate max, one rep max?
00:40:05.160
So if you lift like 25 reps per set, you end up getting virtually the same gains, not a hundred
00:40:12.640
percent identical, not at the sort of at the very edge of the curve, are you getting the
00:40:16.180
absolute most of yourself, but you get pretty much the same gains in muscle and in strength.
00:40:24.740
So with body weights, with body weight exercises, obviously you have, you know, much more, you're
00:40:29.460
much more limited in terms of how you can vary the load.
00:40:31.580
But what this research tells us is, yeah, you know, if you want to do pushups and pull-ups
00:40:36.080
and, and, uh, you know, dips and things like that, you can, you can get a pretty good workout
00:40:40.760
as long as you work hard enough to go to just failure.
00:40:44.200
If you want to take it to, you know, the, the ultimate absolute maximizing the benefits,
00:40:49.860
then you're probably going to want to be able to lift the heavy loads.
00:40:53.100
And particularly I would say for the lower body, there's, it's one thing I, you know,
00:40:57.760
most of us can get a pretty good, good workout.
00:41:00.940
And I'm saying this, this is a dramatic understatement.
00:41:03.580
Most of us don't need to do like 25 pull-ups to reach failure, you know, per set.
00:41:07.860
So it's easy to, to fully challenge yourself with body weight for the upper body for the
00:41:14.500
You know, you can try and isolate, you know, one legged Romanian squats or what it said, split
00:41:19.600
squats or whatever, but really to get your legs exercised, I'd say there, it's a lot
00:41:26.100
harder to, to get the full benefits, uh, from a body weight program.
00:41:31.420
So a lot of people exercise because they're trying to counter that sedentary lifestyle
00:41:34.720
they have because they're sitting down at work all day when they're at home, they're
00:41:38.840
And they say, well, I got my exercise in, I moved my body.
00:41:43.200
So, but in, in keeping with my pattern, I'll say partly true, but not entirely true.
00:41:49.560
You know, and I'll say this, I'll just say, I'm, I'm, I'm speaking to you here from my
00:41:54.460
I'm one of the people who, who ended up getting a desk that allows me to stand for part of
00:41:58.280
the day, although certainly not all of it, uh, or, uh, you know, maybe an eighth of the
00:42:03.700
I, I see, I see fewer headlines about this, uh, these days than, than five or six or seven
00:42:08.560
years ago, all about the dangers of sitting and how sitting is the new smoking and all
00:42:13.120
And I think, you know, what your question is getting at is, is, is, is there something
00:42:18.640
That's more than just the fact that you're not exercising.
00:42:21.700
Like, can you, as long as you get enough exercise, can you sit as much as you want?
00:42:25.720
And I would say the evidence suggests that those are two different things.
00:42:28.960
It's like, so you could say, you know, how much do I have to exercise to counterbalance
00:42:34.600
the, the, the negative health effects of smoking?
00:42:37.680
Just to take an obvious example, it's like, well, in terms of life expectancy, maybe there
00:42:42.480
is a number, maybe if you exercise, maybe smoking one cigarette a day will reduce your
00:42:47.700
life expectancy by one year and exercising half an hour a day will increase it by one
00:42:53.420
And therefore you can balance the two by smoking one cigarette and exercising one half an hour
00:42:59.060
But, but that wouldn't be correct to say that then exercising eliminates the effects of
00:43:04.380
All you're doing is balancing two completely different things.
00:43:07.940
I think with sitting and with prolonged sitting and exercising the part of the problem with
00:43:14.560
being working a desk job is yeah, that you're sitting all day.
00:43:18.460
You're not burning calories that you're not, you know, using your muscles.
00:43:21.720
And so part of the problem with sitting is lack of exercise, but there's another part that
00:43:26.480
seems to be just a direct response to being totally motionless for hours at a time that levels
00:43:33.360
of your muscles basically go into standby mode.
00:43:36.940
They, they, they realize they're not being used that levels of the enzymes that, that
00:43:41.300
draw in, you know, blood sugar and things like that drop.
00:43:45.240
And so you're, you're no longer in a metabolically normal state and your blood sugar is rising.
00:43:50.220
So you have to then secrete insulin to keep it under control.
00:43:53.400
And even if you exercised for an hour that morning, if you're then sitting motionless for
00:43:59.060
eight hours continuously, or for 14 hours, when you add in, you know, your Netflix time that
00:44:02.840
evening, then you're, there's some negative health effects that aren't being balanced just
00:44:09.640
So it's still not entirely clear what you do to counteract that.
00:44:13.820
Nobody knows like, well, do you have to get up once every hour, once every half hour,
00:44:17.740
Can you get up for 10 seconds or for a minute or five minutes is standing up enough, or do
00:44:22.760
you have to do jumping jacks or go up a flight of stairs?
00:44:27.080
But I think I would say, you know, a reasonable rule of thumb is, you know, try to get out of
00:44:34.860
If you have the option to stand up occasionally stand up, you know, you know, once every couple
00:44:40.000
And if you're able to work, you know, work for half an hour standing up.
00:44:42.760
And if you have the, you know, for me, it's like, I actually leave my landline phone downstairs.
00:44:48.660
And so when it rings, it's a pain in the neck, but I have to run downstairs to get it.
00:44:52.260
So it just forces me to, to make sure I don't actually sit at my desk nonstop for all day,
00:44:59.040
I, you know, I, it just makes me go up and down the stairs a couple of times.
00:45:02.320
It's not a workout, but it's, it's just reminding my muscles that, Hey, you can't be
00:45:08.780
So let's talk about a question that I thought was really fun.
00:45:12.980
Does music help anything when you're working out or is it distract?
00:45:19.140
It's, I think everyone who's ever done a, you know, a workout with the right music pounding
00:45:25.440
either in their ears or over the loudspeaker knows that it can be really, really inspirational.
00:45:31.760
And so there, there was all this research that tried to identify.
00:45:35.320
It's like, what is the optimum beat of the music?
00:45:38.580
You know, is there a right key that you have to have it in or a genre?
00:45:46.900
And, you know, so one thing people realized is that music isn't just sound.
00:45:50.740
People have associations with music and the songs that to me might make me remember something,
00:45:58.940
you know, some great moment or a triumph or a girl who dumped me or whatever, like they're
00:46:04.580
And so the personal associations you bring to music are really crucial.
00:46:07.720
So there is never going to be a sort of universal playlist of music that makes people run fast
00:46:14.100
But there, but if you find the right music and generally it's up-tempo music and if it
00:46:18.500
has lyrics, it's music that have lyrics that are, you know, if not inspirational, then at
00:46:23.840
It's not sort of a, a sort of, you know, depressing ballad or anything that's unlikely to max out
00:46:31.580
And that's, that's been shown over and over again.
00:46:33.640
Now, one, the, the, the caveat that's important to keep in mind is that music can make exercise
00:46:43.480
Sometimes it makes it feel easier because you've decided to go easier.
00:46:48.840
I put, put on the tunes and it just felt so easy.
00:46:51.000
And then if you actually look at like the, the power you're up and it's like, oh, it's
00:46:54.180
because I was barely moving my legs because I was focused on the music and listening to
00:46:57.420
And so what they find is the more engaged you are in the music or, you know, with the
00:47:03.600
new comparisons between music and watching a video, watching a video is more engaging.
00:47:07.580
So when you let people self-select their, their exercise intensity, they go easier and easier
00:47:14.460
So if it's like a podcast or music or a video that you're really, really into, you're likely
00:47:21.660
So the sort of additional thing I would say is, first of all, bear in mind, like, you
00:47:28.000
know, keep an eye on your pace or on your effort level, or do a form of exercise.
00:47:33.560
Like if you're on the treadmill and you set it for eight minute miles, then it doesn't
00:47:40.660
It's taking your mind off the effort of maintaining eight minute miles and you're not
00:47:43.700
And if you're lifting weights, you know, you're choosing what weight to lift.
00:47:47.000
So it's not like you're like, oh, I didn't even notice I was lifting 10 pounds instead
00:47:53.980
But in the, in those modalities where you're, where you're freely choosing your exercise
00:47:58.620
intensity, it's easy to be like, to drift off, get, and be like, this feels so great.
00:48:03.940
And then realize that's because you're barely working.
00:48:07.440
I used to listen to music a lot when I, like all the time when I try, I haven't like for
00:48:11.380
the past few months, I've just sort of naturally have like not turned on the speaker
00:48:15.520
till when I trained and I actually enjoyed a lot more, which is weird.
00:48:19.380
I will, I will definitely avoid, you know, judging either way.
00:48:25.100
I'll say for me running, I, it's, it's a time for me to be alone with my thoughts.
00:48:30.540
And so for me, if I have music, that's where my mind is.
00:48:34.300
And so I, I value getting outside and running and just letting my mind wander.
00:48:40.080
And it's amazing where, you know, where my mind ends up.
00:48:42.260
And I don't, you know, I, I don't remember most of the time, but it's like, wow, how
00:48:46.740
And I, I, I have this sort of totally irrational and unfounded belief that that's kind of good
00:48:51.180
for me to, to, to have some time to let my, you know, in this busy, overscheduled world
00:48:57.040
And I tried listening to podcasts while working out and that I just was too distracted.
00:49:01.020
Like I was distracted from the podcast because I was so focused on training that I couldn't
00:49:05.440
And also like the podcast distracted my training.
00:49:08.480
So I just like, that's exactly, I think your experience is, is the classic sort of pitfall
00:49:14.880
of something that's too good and too interesting.
00:49:17.320
You're not giving a hundred percent of attention to either of the things.
00:49:20.240
And those are both things that you would like to be giving a hundred percent of your attention
00:49:26.820
There's so many more questions people can read about in the book.
00:49:29.400
Where can people find out more information about what you're doing now and what you're
00:49:33.080
Yeah, probably the easiest, easiest place to find me is on Twitter.
00:49:35.540
My, uh, my handle is sweat science, all one word.
00:49:38.720
And that's where I post, you know, anything I find interesting or new articles that I've
00:49:42.380
I do have a website, alexhutchinson.net, where there's sort of obscure details about my long
00:49:48.500
Like the fact that I wrote a book called, which comes first, cardio or weights.
00:49:51.360
So, uh, those are probably the two, the two best places to go.
00:49:59.560
He's the author of the book, which comes first, cardio or weights and his latest book, indoor.
00:50:05.800
You can find out more information about his work at his website, alexhutchinson.com or
00:50:09.080
follow him on Twitter at, at sweat science and check out our show notes at aom.is slash
00:50:13.660
fitness FAQ, where you can find links to resources, where you can delve deeper into this topic.
00:50:17.160
Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast.
00:50:26.880
Check out our website at artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives, as
00:50:30.180
well as thousands of articles we've written over the years, including articles on fitness
00:50:33.620
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00:50:42.060
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00:50:48.600
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00:50:55.400
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00:50:58.920
As always, thank you for the continued support.
00:51:01.060
Until next time, this is Brett McKay, reminding you not only to listen to the AOM podcast,