The Art of Manliness - #548： How to Start and Sustain Conversations

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast whether sitting

00:00:11.540 next to someone on the subway mingling at a wedding or chatting around the water cooler

00:00:15.520 chances to make conversation and new friends abound in our lives but how do you meet and

00:00:19.560 talk to people without being awkward about it my guest day has spent over three decades teaching

00:00:23.700 people from all walks of life how to make small talk and socialize his name is don gabor he's the

00:00:28.220 author of several books including the one we're talking about today how to start a conversation

00:00:32.040 and make friends we begin our conversation discussing where don sees people have the most

00:00:36.540 problems with starting and sustaining conversations as well as whether these issues have or haven't

00:00:40.900 changed over the last 30 years don then walks us through how you can make yourself more approachable

00:00:45.160 for small talk why body language is so key in this area and the best way to give a handshake we then

00:00:50.180 discuss how to break the ice with someone you've just made contact with how to handle rejection

00:00:53.800 how to remember people's names after you meet them don then shares how to keep the conversation going

00:00:58.180 by offering up and homing in on certain keywords and we end our conversation with how to end a

00:01:02.640 conversation out of the show's over check out our show notes at aom.is slash conversation

00:01:06.720 all right don gabor welcome to the show well i'm happy to be here so you are an expert on social

00:01:23.700 skills you made your career teaching individuals to be better conversationalists how to network how to

00:01:29.220 make friends i'm curious how did you get started in the world of social skills i moved to new york in

00:01:34.620 1979 after having a career in teaching and and i started teaching a workshop called how to start a

00:01:42.900 conversation it became clear that a lot of people were having difficulty just doing what i thought came

00:01:50.120 natural and so my career as a as a communications trainer and author really started way back when

00:01:58.640 i started with that workshop and it's just grown from there so where do you see people having the

00:02:04.900 most trouble with starting and carrying on conversations i think there's some nuance to that

00:02:12.640 question because in some situations some people are very good with their conversations and then the

00:02:18.120 same person in a different situation can feel awkward and uncomfortable and just really you know

00:02:24.900 ill at ease and so by that to give you an example there are some professionals where people speak for a

00:02:32.380 living you know professional speakers actors attorneys entertainers in in various you know fields

00:02:39.900 but you take them out of that structured environment and many of them feel very uncomfortable so that example

00:02:50.160 kind of illustrates that people can feel comfortable speaking in one situation and uncomfortable in another

00:02:56.220 really based around what's expected of them and kind of their roles and so what where i think people have the

00:03:04.260 greatest difficulty is they're sometimes really not sure exactly how to go about bridging the the gap between

00:03:14.980 a situation where they're good at communicating and one that they're not so good and this is one

00:03:20.520 of the the ways that over the years as i've been teaching and writing about the subject one of the the ways that i

00:03:27.940 figured out that it's really pretty easy for for people to master the skill is to identify what

00:03:34.260 they're doing where they're communicating confidently and then apply that with some adjustments to the

00:03:43.060 situations where they they don't feel as confident and then that way they can kind of master some of the

00:03:48.460 skills or bring up some of the levels of of their skills that that they're good in in one situation

00:03:54.760 and need some improvement in another so i think the another answer to your question

00:04:02.200 brett is that a lot of times people i think are focusing in the wrong direction when they're trying

00:04:10.560 to communicate with people and and so a lot of times they're focusing inward and they're they're

00:04:16.080 worried about what people are going to think of them and if they're going to say the right thing and

00:04:20.760 and so on and i mean i'm not saying to not think about what you say but if you worry too much and think

00:04:27.420 inward too much no matter what situation you're in the communication is probably not going to be

00:04:32.660 particularly effective that's like anything in life in sports right they tell sports psychologists

00:04:37.880 tell golfers like don't think about what you're doing too much because then you'll just choke

00:04:41.940 yeah i mean that's sort of the the mentality i think of you know muscle memory and if you practice

00:04:49.380 enough then then let your let your abilities just take over and i think that's that's a good point

00:04:56.320 and it's a good analogy for communication skills and that's one of the things that i tell people

00:05:01.800 you know who you know they say well i'm kind of shy and i don't really like to talk to people that much

00:05:06.220 i'm not really sure what to say and you know i don't want to say the wrong thing they say look

00:05:10.600 there's a lot of opportunities to practice interacting with people where you know there's no risk it's not

00:05:18.040 like uh you know you're in a business meeting or you're in a job interview or you're out on a first

00:05:22.900 date and and you really do want to make a good impression i mean there's no question about that

00:05:27.900 but there's a lot of opportunities that almost everyone has during the course of a day or week

00:05:35.220 where you have opportunity to interact with people practice eye contact practice opening a conversation

00:05:42.800 starting it from scratch without any you know anybody initiating it or sending out a signal that

00:05:49.920 says you know it's okay to talk so if you practice some of these the basic skills and these are basic

00:05:57.760 skills some people just pick them up naturally or they learn them from somebody you know in their home

00:06:04.480 or a teacher or friends and other people it doesn't come natural i mean some people are natural athletes

00:06:10.480 and some people are natural musicians and so on but they still have to learn the skills to support

00:06:16.160 that natural ability and i believe that communication skills are you know similar in that way so

00:06:23.000 practice like in a sports analogy you know applies to the conversation skills as well

00:06:29.520 so you've been at this since 1979 uh the first book you published was in 1983 it's how to start a conversation

00:06:35.740 and make friends i mean has anything changed since then i mean you noticed new issues pop up that

00:06:41.780 people are experiencing new concerns people have about starting conversations or are they pretty much

00:06:45.820 the same it's a great question and i'm asked that a lot and over the years i have revised my book

00:06:53.140 in fact it's gone through two complete revisions and so the answer to your question is kind of twofold

00:06:59.820 some things just don't change you know people's nature just don't change maybe they do over a

00:07:06.200 couple million years but not within the last you know 30 years that i've been working at this

00:07:10.340 subject but what has changed a technology certainly has changed and that's made a big change

00:07:16.860 you know in how people communicate and i think people's expectations have changed and social

00:07:24.620 norms have changed what's acceptable and what's not so the what i think people need to understand

00:07:32.160 and i think what what i try to communicate when i'm doing a workshop or you know doing an interview

00:07:38.460 like this or or writing a book is that that you know people really i think are looking for a couple

00:07:46.160 things from one another one is they want your attention and they want your approval and in in the

00:07:52.880 article i read on your website which i thought was very good about narcissism in conversation

00:07:59.340 people do want attention the problem is if they only want their own attention and then they're

00:08:06.500 talking too much then that's not good which is what your article the article on your website points

00:08:11.620 out but we do seek other people's attention we do seek other people's approval so in face-to-face

00:08:19.160 communication body language plays a very big role in in approval smiling and eye contact and the tone

00:08:27.260 of your voice and those kinds of you know body language characteristics that are part of a conversation

00:08:32.940 but in online communication you know through texting and emails and and any kind of electronic

00:08:40.800 communication other than if it's a visual body language is is absent and sometimes voice is absent

00:08:48.020 so people have to make adjustments for for that another thing that a big change between how we

00:08:57.020 communicate now and it's probably going to change again in the next you know five minutes or five

00:09:02.520 years or you know it's shorter is that if we're having a conversation you and i are in a club or a meeting a

00:09:11.360 business meeting or just at a party and we say something to one another somebody says something and

00:09:17.260 you know it's kind of like off the wall or maybe it's uh confusing our face will kind of go hmm you

00:09:24.080 know or you'll make a little comment or some some signal will be sent that something didn't quite land

00:09:31.820 right or maybe some confusion and then we would correct it oh well maybe i let me rephrase that but

00:09:39.300 in in electronic communication and i'm using that as the example of how things are different between

00:09:45.380 you know when i started this on this path this career path and now we really don't get that so a lot of

00:09:52.040 times what happens is you write something in an email or a text and maybe it's clear more often it's not

00:09:59.520 because of the speed that we're riding but it never we never have an opportunity to to see how the other

00:10:05.620 person is influenced by it or how they how they are receiving that message so if it's unclear or

00:10:13.620 inappropriate or any uh number of other maybe not effective kinds of uh the responses that we're

00:10:22.080 looking for we don't have an opportunity to correct it so you know miscommunication so i would say those are

00:10:28.980 the a couple of things that you know the differences between now and then communication wise that that

00:10:36.520 people need to be aware of have you noticed people being more socially anxious lately than say maybe back

00:10:43.220 in 1979 or is about the same i think people it's normal to to have some anxiety when you walk into a

00:10:52.460 room full of people that you don't know it's just normal it's normal to have a little bit of anxiety

00:10:58.240 going out on a date that's there's always plenty of anxiety there or going for a job interview

00:11:05.120 or or just sometimes just going out with friends people will feel a little bit uncomfortable

00:11:12.620 so anxiety is normal it's is it more now than it used to be you know i i'm not a psychologist or

00:11:21.220 or uh you know somebody who can really you know comment on on the anxiety of society i know i'm

00:11:29.960 feeling pretty anxious at times but it's not so much about talking to people it's just on what's

00:11:34.920 going on in the world and i think that's a kind of a point that we also need to take into consideration

00:11:40.600 when we're chatting with people some people just feel comfortable walking into a room full of

00:11:45.540 strangers or more comfortable i'm i'm like that i it doesn't bother me that much although i i have a

00:11:50.620 little bit of anxiety but i know other people are very anxious so part of my goal when i do talk to

00:11:58.680 people in that kind of situation is to bring the anxiety level down and the way i do that

00:12:05.100 is by keeping the conversation light not getting too deep into any particular topic right away and and

00:12:14.380 try and you know make a little light humor of what's going on around just so that people know

00:12:22.660 it's not a big deal to have a conversation and that seems to work for me in most of the situations

00:12:30.620 and it can work for most other people too well so let's talk about starting conversations and the

00:12:35.980 first thing you talk you recommend if you want more conversations to happen is you have to make

00:12:40.880 yourself more approachable so what can people do to make themselves more approachable you know this

00:12:46.560 is one of the really important parts of communication and what i like to observe when i'm out talking to

00:12:53.620 people are who's who's sending the first signal to communicate i'm gonna i'm the kind of person i

00:12:59.860 usually will take the initiative just because i'm my nature is a little bit more outgoing but not

00:13:05.440 i don't always i'm not always the first one to send the signal i'm looking for signals and so to

00:13:13.540 make yourself more approachable you want to do two things you want to send a signal and we're talking

00:13:21.860 now in a situation where people can see you so it could be at the gym or at a social event or at work

00:13:29.860 you know any of those or in the family situation and those signals really are body language so eye

00:13:37.060 contact smiling is the most important thing now not a big ear to ear grin like the cat who just ate the

00:13:45.460 canary but just a gentle friendly smile and and eye contact i believe is almost precedes that and if

00:13:55.040 you watch people in which i do and we're walking down the street it it's eye contact that seems to

00:14:02.680 be the very beginning way to send the signal that you're willing to communicate so you want to look

00:14:08.020 for those signals and men i think that those signals are coming to them and they're missing them

00:14:14.680 many men miss the signals that women send to them that say please approach me the women have been taught

00:14:21.580 and this has changed that's another thing that's changed over the years women are a little more

00:14:26.320 assertive when it start when it comes to approaching men but many are still going to hang back but they

00:14:32.900 are going to send a signal eye contact a subtle smile and men need to to look for that but the men need

00:14:39.220 to send the signals as well so body language is really your first line of of approach to be more

00:14:47.840 approachable and i will say categorically crossed arms send the opposite signal so if your arms are

00:14:58.180 crossed folded in front of your chest that says body language wise and you may not feel this way or

00:15:04.840 people may not feel this way when they're doing this but the the signal is clear clearly interpreted

00:15:09.800 as please i'm really not interested so unfold your arms and put them anywhere except in front of you

00:15:18.480 in front of you you know you're folded across your chest and and you'll have a more approachable

00:15:22.640 body language signal yeah you talk about the this acronym soften which sort of help you kind of help

00:15:29.620 you think about those things like smile you talked about that open posture no no closed arms

00:15:35.680 uh forward lean i guess indicate indicates you're interested i think the t is touch and e is eye

00:15:42.940 contact and then what's n is nod right right um forward lean is something that i want to just touch

00:15:50.500 on very briefly and what that means is just to lean a little bit towards the other person and and what

00:15:57.060 that shows is it shows that you're listening so i go back to what people want from you they want your

00:16:01.820 attention they want your approval so if you show and then you're demonstrating physically that you're

00:16:08.440 interested in what you know he or she has to say then the person feels can feel more comfortable

00:16:16.180 however if you move too close then it could feel like you're encroaching on that that space there's also

00:16:25.320 cultural elements to to softening and body language which people need to be aware of men and women

00:16:31.420 some cultures prefer a little distance a little more distance between speakers some cultures

00:16:37.680 prefer or are more comfortable with you know closer proximity so you want to be sensitive to that but

00:16:45.160 leaning forward slightly shows that you're you're interested and touch is another one of those

00:16:52.680 elements that have a cultural application with shaking hands and some cultures shaking hands is is

00:17:00.700 is part of the culture other cultures shaking hands is is less comfortable particularly between men and

00:17:07.700 women but here's what i encourage people to do and i think this is pretty much standard practice in the

00:17:13.480 united states and in most western countries is to offer your hand in handshake and and shake hands web to

00:17:22.200 web and that that means to shake hands there's a the place between your your forefinger and your thumb that

00:17:28.880 little area it's called the web of your hand the web between those two digits and and you want to kind

00:17:34.940 of focus on getting that other person's hand web to web and the way you do that is just as you're just as

00:17:42.220 you're getting ready to make contact to shake hands and you've got eye contact with the person just glance

00:17:48.980 down at his or her hand and kind of aim your hand at the web of your hand at the web of the other person's

00:17:57.200 hand and chances are you will you know shake hands web to web don't squeeze too hard but don't don't you

00:18:04.340 know don't do the bone crusher and don't do the wet limp wet fish kind of handshake either so a moderate

00:18:11.600 handshake strength handshake grip web to web at the initiation of your conversation or very close to the

00:18:20.900 beginning and at the end is is another important way to send signals that you're open okay so you've

00:18:30.700 made contact with somebody now we're at the this is the awkward part how do you break the ice with

00:18:36.360 someone to get the conversation going the easiest way to break the ice and in the most natural way to

00:18:43.540 break the ice it is to focus on your surroundings where you are and and comment or ask a question on

00:18:53.140 something that both of you can relate to in your immediate surroundings so for example if you're at a

00:19:03.300 business event and you're networking and you're sitting down or you're waiting for a workshop to start or you're

00:19:09.680 waiting for the waiting for the speaker to to begin you know you turn to the other person and you use a

00:19:16.700 just a completely typical greeting good morning how are you this morning you can introduce yourself in a

00:19:23.640 business situation you can introduce yourself right away there's just no problem with that and then ask are

00:19:30.520 you a member of this organization or have you seen this speaker before or you could say this meeting is

00:19:37.580 really i i've been a member of this organization for da da da and you know the speaker i'm really

00:19:44.080 looking forward so you can make a comment or ask a question and and introducing yourself early on

00:19:50.380 in any situation is usually best in a business situation you can do it right away in a social

00:19:57.360 situation where the the rules are more flexible and the people are going to probably be coming

00:20:07.440 from you know maybe different businesses or backgrounds or you know you're going to have

00:20:13.300 a little broader demographic of people there you can still do the same thing but you want to do it in

00:20:19.700 a little less um direct way so if you're at a party for example and what i do when i go to a party is i'm

00:20:29.540 i gravitate towards the food table because i'm i like food and i like the you know nibble and i like the

00:20:37.440 cook and you know so it's a topic that i can i can you know talk about and many people feel the same

00:20:43.500 way so i will say i wonder how this this guacamole is have you tried it or then i might say you know so

00:20:52.260 we might say a little bit yeah this is pretty good and so by the way you know who do you know here at

00:20:57.000 the party or how did you do you know the host because most people if they're invited to a party they

00:21:02.540 get invited by somebody usually a host and so that's another way these are these are very typical

00:21:09.000 and common ways to start the conversation and i encourage you to use those kinds of icebreakers

00:21:17.040 as opposed to hey you want to hear a funny joke about a or or try to make some you know kind of corny

00:21:27.060 awkward comment that is supposed to be funny but falls flat so using the situation that you're in

00:21:34.580 if you're in your neighborhood you're walking around maybe looking for a place to to eat a

00:21:39.600 restaurant and you see you're looking at a menu in the window and somebody comes out of the restaurant

00:21:45.480 say excuse me you know i'm curious how was your meal i've never eaten here before so these are just

00:21:52.180 you know there's a hundred examples i could give of these kinds of ways to break the ice the main

00:21:58.760 point is ask a question or make a comment about something that the people that you're trying to

00:22:06.540 communicate with can also react to and with good body language and a smile you know in a nice friendly

00:22:14.840 tone to your voice the conversation is probably going to at least get started no i think that's great

00:22:21.120 advice uh an example from my life where this is someone was started a conversation with me because

00:22:27.180 they were noticing the common environment i was uh at my son's jujitsu practice or whatever and i was

00:22:33.000 sitting there and this woman was sitting next to me and i was reading the nicomachean ethics by

00:22:37.860 aristotle and she looked over and she says are you reading that for fun or for school and i'm not in

00:22:44.700 school anymore i was like well i'm reading this for fun believe it or not and she's like wow that's

00:22:47.860 interesting like i've wanted to go back and read some of those things i read in college and we had

00:22:51.600 this conversation about you know great books you read in college and reading philosophy even after

00:22:56.920 you're done with college and it all started with that question that she noticed i was reading the

00:23:00.400 nicomachean ethics at brazilian jujitsu well that's a perfect example and that that example i think it

00:23:06.900 applies to t-shirts and tennis rackets and you know hats and different kinds of clothing i mean it just

00:23:16.040 it goes on and on see once again you know what do people want from you they want your attention and

00:23:22.380 they want your approval so what that woman did in your case brett was she showed interest in what

00:23:32.040 you were doing you were reading a book now this was a convenient way for her to break the ice it was

00:23:37.440 very natural it was easy and you responded really really well it also gave her an opportunity to

00:23:46.600 tell you that what she thought you were doing was was good you know like she said she are you reading

00:23:53.220 that for fun or for school and and when you said well you know i'm not in school anymore for fun and

00:23:59.720 she said yeah i think it's good to you know i want to go back and read some other things too so this

00:24:03.840 was a way of signaling a form of approval about what you were doing it's so easy to do and let me

00:24:11.420 just point one more thing out about this whole topic and and why i think it's so important and in one

00:24:19.440 of the things that you had brought up or i think in the beginning and and we might discuss a little bit

00:24:25.820 more about how things have changed conversationally is that you know in days past maybe 10 15 20 years

00:24:35.260 ago maybe more people had more opportunities to interact with one another and today it seems like

00:24:42.220 there's a lot more people that are isolated by choice and sometimes just by circumstance but

00:24:50.080 in your neighborhood where you live there's so many opportunities to connect with people but more

00:24:57.460 often than not people will just kind of walk down the street and go into their apartment or house or

00:25:04.080 wherever they live or drive into their garage and go in through the you know back door and just kind of

00:25:11.500 hide out and and i think what i try to encourage people to do is to interact with the people in their

00:25:19.220 neighborhood for a variety of reasons not in a in a forced way but in a natural way so if you see

00:25:25.000 somebody walking down the street and you know that they live in your general area you send out a

00:25:30.100 friendly signal start with hello how are you today and just start from there and then after you see

00:25:35.940 that person a couple times and say you know you live right down the street is that right yeah oh hey

00:25:40.720 by the way my name's don or my name you know you introduce yourself and and it's important what that

00:25:46.900 does is it it it creates the beginning of a social interaction that can lead to you know more

00:25:58.840 friendship it can lead to more contact within the neighborhood and it can make you feel more

00:26:04.180 comfortable where you live by knowing who's around you and so conversation has as a i think a major role

00:26:13.600 to play in in fighting the isolation that a lot of people complain about in their lives today they

00:26:23.360 they they they feel lonely they think the internet is a is an option for them and it can be but in my

00:26:30.540 view it really doesn't replace face-to-face communication and what you actually can get from

00:26:38.260 that communication the the connections that you make with people well let's say you reach out to

00:26:43.980 someone try the icebreaker you ask something notice something in the common environment you try to

00:26:49.080 strike a conversation but there's some rejection they just they're obvious they're not interested

00:26:52.780 how do you handle that so i think that's why i think it holds that's one thing that holds a lot

00:26:56.820 of people back from you making the attempt they're like oh what does the reject mean it becomes awkward

00:27:00.920 well you're absolutely right rejection is a big fear that people have and nobody likes to get

00:27:06.240 rejected and and people say well i don't take it personally well you know we do take it personally

00:27:11.360 i take it personally and i think that's just a normal reaction however if you let the fear of

00:27:21.400 rejection prevent you from reaching out to people then you know this this is where i say to people i said

00:27:30.100 look what what do you have to lose if if you if you approach people the right way chances are they're

00:27:37.680 going to respond not everyone will i mean it's just that's just the reality and the reason you think

00:27:44.640 well they're rejecting me but they're not that might not be the exact reason why people don't respond

00:27:50.920 the way you think and let me give you a couple quick examples sometimes people are just very fearful

00:27:57.180 in general and there are people who are afraid to interact with strangers for any number of reasons

00:28:03.040 and some of them are very good and i certainly wouldn't wouldn't you know suggest for anybody

00:28:08.640 to do anything that that makes them feel like they're in danger so sometimes people just are told

00:28:16.700 don't talk to strangers and you're a stranger and i'm not going to talk to you okay so that's their

00:28:23.040 their frame of mind let's put it that way sometimes people actually don't hear you or maybe there's

00:28:33.120 some element that you have sent out a signal you said hello the person didn't respond but that but

00:28:40.500 you don't really realize that maybe they they they didn't hear what you were saying he or she didn't

00:28:45.860 hear what you were saying or maybe the language there's a language issue or more often than not i don't

00:28:51.340 know about where you live but where i live half the people are walking down the street with earbuds

00:28:56.000 which i don't think is a great thing because that's a signal that says don't talk to me so take your

00:29:02.320 earbuds out folks if you want to talk to people because earbuds are telling other people that you're not

00:29:08.980 available for conversation which is of course just the opposite of what i encourage you to do and

00:29:14.800 finally sometimes it takes a couple times to approach people to let them feel that you're

00:29:23.040 okay to talk to but in the end if somebody really doesn't want to talk to you and there are people

00:29:30.660 that are just they don't want to talk to anybody okay so what are you going to do you're going to

00:29:35.100 twist their arm you're going to talk to me or i'll break your arm you know i mean you just have to

00:29:40.700 live with that that's just the way some people are and move on and don't let that prevent you from

00:29:46.540 reaching out to others so during this initial ice breaking phase you're probably going to learn the

00:29:51.600 person's name or hear it how do you remember someone's name after they've introduced themselves

00:29:56.420 because that's the problem a lot of people have like in the middle of the conversation they're like

00:29:59.260 oh man i just forgot this guy's name he told me five minutes ago right well remembering names is a big

00:30:04.800 part well introductions are a big part of conversation and that's why i say do it early

00:30:12.020 in the conversation here's here's and i didn't make this up but i use these techniques and and i'm i'm

00:30:19.420 not you know perfect at it that's for sure but they do work in many most cases first of all

00:30:26.520 don't say to yourself oh i'm never going to remember the person's name so i'm not going to bother

00:30:31.140 think of the person as the most important person in the room or at that moment in your life and focus

00:30:39.540 on the moment of introduction don't think about what you're going to say next this is where most

00:30:45.380 people the problem lies is they're they're not listening to what the person's saying when he or she

00:30:51.260 says you know the his or her name they're thinking what are they going to say next so don't think about

00:30:58.120 what you're going to say next repeat the person's name if the person has an unusual name or a name

00:31:06.580 that is easy to misinterpret ask them to clarify or spell the name or is it marie or maria and so by

00:31:16.460 repeating the name you hear the name you repeat the name you're sending a couple signals one is you care

00:31:23.140 enough to want to remember the person's name by repeating it so that makes the person feel good

00:31:28.420 about the exchange you you you have more likelihood of remembering the name by repeating it because

00:31:37.360 your brain has etched a little pathway up there and then you actually hear yourself say the name so

00:31:44.320 you have three inputs the person's saying his or her name you repeating the name and you hearing the

00:31:50.680 name so you've got three repetitions and memory and repetition come together now my other that's

00:31:57.060 pretty standard stuff and another trick technique that i use is and this works a good seven to ten out

00:32:05.980 of ten times about 70 to 80 percent is i think of somebody i know with the same name now and the person

00:32:13.660 that i think of it could be a celebrity it could be a sports figure it could be a good friend a member

00:32:20.620 of the family a kid that i grew up with and haven't seen in in 25 years now the what the reason that

00:32:27.640 this works i don't know but for example if i met you brett at a party i might the first person that

00:32:34.820 comes to my mind is a baseball player whose first name starts with brett so that's that's who i might

00:32:41.420 think of and i don't even know you know you may not look anything like this if i meet somebody named

00:32:46.480 fred i think of my father because that was my father's name if i meet somebody named sophie

00:32:52.840 i think of a cat that i used to have named sophie and i don't tell the person oh i'm going to remember

00:32:57.660 your name because i had a cat named sophie but this technique it's it's strange but it works because

00:33:06.500 there are a lot of people with common first names and it doesn't always work but oftentimes it does

00:33:14.840 and one last thing you want to repeat the name in the conversation not over and over and over

00:33:19.920 but once again it's sending the signal i remember your name it's helping you remember it but what

00:33:27.080 happens when you don't remember the person's name and this you know it just kind of flies by and you

00:33:31.940 didn't grab it that first two seconds you say how do you spell your name again tell me tell me your

00:33:39.300 name one more time please so again it's it's kind of admitting that you didn't get it the first time

00:33:45.280 but it's okay because they'll say well it's it's it's don and if somebody calls you by the wrong name

00:33:53.340 you want to correct them it's okay that's a little bit uncomfortable you know sometimes people will

00:33:58.740 you know my name is don but they'll say dan or dom for short for dominic i said no don like you

00:34:05.900 know you know don juan de marco or you know the dawn of time but not spelled that way so those

00:34:12.280 are techniques that i use that work and they can work for just about anybody so a lot of times when

00:34:18.260 you go to a party or an event one thing that people do to sort of ease their way into conversations

00:34:23.100 they'll find someone they know and then start talking to them and then sort of use that person

00:34:28.520 as a way to springboard into other conversations with people they don't know but sometimes you go to

00:34:32.420 an event or a party where you know no one so what's the advice there to get a conversation going

00:34:38.100 when you don't know anybody at the place you're at well that's a question that i get asked a lot

00:34:45.140 and the way i answer that is i do a little bit of homework and depending on the on the situation if

00:34:50.640 it's a business event usually i will go and make contact i will introduce myself to the people

00:34:58.560 who are responsible for the event more often than not they're the ones that are going to be greeting

00:35:03.940 at the door so you're going to have an opportunity to meet people right away if it's a more formal

00:35:09.960 event if it's a social event there's somebody who presumably invited you to the to the event

00:35:16.260 although not necessarily maybe you've signed up on a you know an event site and it's a meetup and

00:35:23.420 and you just really don't know anybody so what i do is i look for a friendly face so i'm always

00:35:29.220 looking for those signals of openness and you can spot them they're really easy to spot if you're

00:35:35.360 looking and those are the people that i will go up and approach and i mean i won't walk right up but

00:35:41.440 if i see a group of people talking that's okay too but i'm going to observe and i'm going to watch

00:35:47.300 if there's two or three people chatting together and i'm going to watch if there's a real tight

00:35:52.440 unit there in other words they're they're very close together and there's no space for a person

00:35:58.740 to join that conversation i'll probably look for another either an individual or a group to join

00:36:05.080 because that closed conversation maybe they're talking about you know some personal topic or a

00:36:11.260 work-related you know you're gossiping or something and i probably might not want to get into

00:36:16.280 that conversation anyway so i'm looking for openness and then i just you know it's like

00:36:22.660 going fishing you got to cast out and see if you get a bite i'm gonna go to where there are people i

00:36:29.800 will not go to where there are no people because who are you going to talk to if there's nobody there

00:36:37.340 you know plus here's another tip if you approach people and just start a simple conversation not

00:36:45.600 monopolizing the conversation and this is a big problem but just interacting with questions and

00:36:52.360 comments balancing the conversation between talking and listening and balance is the key here

00:36:59.180 what's more important or equally important is that the shy person who you know is kind of hanging

00:37:06.420 back and looking to see who to talk to he or she will see you communicating with other people

00:37:12.800 he or she will see you moving from an individual to a group to another individual so by you demonstrating

00:37:22.600 your openness and your desire to communicate other people see that and they will feel more comfortable

00:37:31.520 talking to you if you approach them or they might even feel more comfortable approaching you

00:37:35.600 so once again when you walk into that room full of strangers look for people who want to

00:37:42.280 communicate and simply say you look like a friendly guy how's it going tonight are you here for the

00:37:48.720 workshop are you here for the food are you here for the music whatever it is and i love the idea with

00:37:54.140 the the group thing you know look for the open people who are showing that they're open to new

00:37:58.200 person and just say hey what brings you here exactly the conversation people want to interact we're

00:38:03.660 social animals now granted some people are you know more open and than others and some people are more

00:38:10.200 outgoing than others and that's all true and and that's something that we all have to if you want to

00:38:15.840 be a good communicator you have to be able to communicate with all types of individuals not just people who

00:38:22.240 communicate like you do which is usually the kind of people that we like to communicate with

00:38:26.200 so when when you see people at a party here's what i do at a party or in a networking event and i'm with

00:38:34.260 a group of people talking maybe two or three or something like that and i'm look i'm we're chatting

00:38:40.880 about business or whatever the topic of the event is that's that's what we're chatting about in our group

00:38:49.840 but i'm also looking around outside the group and i'm looking to see if there's somebody who's

00:38:54.960 looking at the group sending that signal that said you know i i like to join but i'm not really

00:39:01.220 i don't want to butt in because that's how a lot of people feel and what i do is i i establish eye

00:39:08.520 contact with that person i smile and then i take a very subtle step back from the group to open up a

00:39:17.940 little bit of a space and this is body language it's all body language i'm not saying hey pal come on over

00:39:24.540 you know the water's fine but i'm sending the signal that says you know if you want to come

00:39:28.620 on over and join us you're welcome and once again more often than not people pick up that signal and

00:39:35.820 and uh they will then be heading into the conversation and that's that's what we want to do particularly at

00:39:43.020 a networking event that's what it's all about so let's say you start the conversation how do you keep

00:39:48.340 the conversation going once it started because you can you can there's only so much you can say about

00:39:52.400 the weather or whatever so any idea any tips on keeping the conversation going oh sure that's

00:39:59.440 really easy although a lot of people think that's the hardest thing well they think breaking the ice

00:40:04.100 is the hardest thing keeping the conversation going is is easy if you're listening if all you're doing is

00:40:14.140 talking then it's not really a conversation it's a monologue and people are going to start you know

00:40:20.280 looking for ways to exit they're looking for the door so what you want to listen for are key words

00:40:27.880 and key words are words that are nouns and verbs that you know words that paint pictures of people

00:40:35.020 doing things or or working on things for example projects or vacations or or like your book was was a

00:40:44.200 keyword the title of your book uh that anything that you can see a picture of that or relates to some

00:40:50.920 kind of action that people are doing the reason that you want to listen for these things while you're

00:40:56.640 talking about let's just say subject a the event or the host of the party or the music or whatever it

00:41:03.460 might be you want to listen for the other words that are being communicated in a conversation and you want

00:41:11.300 to drop those words from your side into the conversation that will lead to additional topics

00:41:19.220 for example let's say you're going to an event a music event i'm going to to a jazz club tonight with

00:41:27.760 my wife and we're going to see a jazz group at a at a club in in new york city and we're going to be

00:41:35.080 sitting down next to some people who we have no idea who they are and you know we'll probably say

00:41:40.880 hello and you know before the show starts and we'll have a little bit of chat about the music

00:41:46.880 but what i'll also probably just drop into the conversation is that i met the piano player

00:41:54.240 at who's in this group tonight at the gym and all of a sudden now oh jim where do you go to the gym

00:42:02.920 well we live in brooklyn see so all these words that are part of the conversation about

00:42:10.220 the music or the venue that we're at which is in the basement of a barbecue restaurant see all those

00:42:17.700 words basement restaurant barbecue brooklyn gym these are all called key words and they'll all be part

00:42:25.560 of a conversation so then the way you change the topic is you say you know by the way i heard you

00:42:33.000 mentioned earlier that that that that that and now the conversation just takes a little bit of a turn

00:42:40.340 and then you're on to topic b or topic c and you do the same thing and pretty soon what what what are

00:42:47.360 you looking for are you looking just to fill space and time or is there do you have another goal in in

00:42:53.260 this conversation and my view is i haven't i have goals in my conversations i want to find out

00:43:00.000 if i have anything in common with the person or people i'm talking to sometimes i do more often

00:43:07.580 than not i do sometimes i don't but usually i can find a topic of common interest so by referring to

00:43:16.620 a topic that you heard earlier in a conversation what are you doing you're sending that that signal

00:43:24.820 again that said i'm listening i'm paying attention to what you told me because i remembered something that

00:43:29.380 you said and i'm kind of curious about that particular topic now it could be a topic where

00:43:36.420 you are you have a particular goal in mind maybe you're looking for um for a job or maybe you're

00:43:43.440 looking for gigs for more work or maybe you're looking for a new place to live or maybe you're

00:43:48.540 looking for a great place to take a vacation these are all goals that most people have at one time or

00:43:56.180 another and by talking to people and listening when these topics come up you can then move your

00:44:03.400 conversation to those topics and then it says to the person you know i really appreciate what you've

00:44:08.920 told me so that's they're looking for your appreciation and your attention so you're fulfilling

00:44:14.300 a variety of goals by just having a simple conversation so you recap so you're gonna you're gonna listen for

00:44:22.700 keywords that the person you're talking to is saying so you can go back to but you're also at the same

00:44:27.260 time sending out signals your own keywords so that you're giving them a chance to like pick up on

00:44:33.060 something right and by you referring some of the keywords while you dropping in some of the keywords

00:44:39.920 into the conversation it tells the other person indirectly what you want to talk about and this is

00:44:46.540 very important it goes back to one of your questions about you know when people feel uncomfortable in

00:44:50.600 conversations because they don't know what to talk about so if you've dropped in a key word about

00:44:57.420 i don't know food or gardening or whatever it might be it's a pretty clear signal that that's a topic that

00:45:05.660 you're probably willing to chat about a little bit and maybe you have a common interest maybe you are

00:45:11.760 a gardener too and then you're growing tomatoes like i am and we might say well how was your tomato crop

00:45:17.680 this year and so this makes other people feel comfortable when they're talking to you and you

00:45:23.540 want to remember these details so that if you see the person again then you can you can make a

00:45:29.840 reference to them maybe you're not going to see them again you know more people say oh i'm never going

00:45:34.880 to see this person again so why should i bother with all this stuff that's the biggest mistake you can

00:45:39.320 make as far as i'm concerned so this is the way to keep the conversation going it's the way to feel

00:45:47.220 that the conversation wasn't a waste of time and just making you know idle you know filling space before

00:45:54.640 an event and it gives you practice on on how to interact with people in a way that makes them feel

00:46:02.120 good about you and makes them feel good about themselves so that maybe the next time you meet

00:46:08.920 it's going to be easier and you've established some of the the foundations of building some kind

00:46:16.480 of a relationship which is what all this can you know lead to and goes back to the you know the how

00:46:24.260 many people feel isolated in their lives today what do you do if you're in a conversation where

00:46:30.020 you're you're sending out those keywords to the person but they're not asking any questions about

00:46:34.300 you right it's like and you're just asking all the questions yeah it's not and it's not that they're

00:46:38.580 rejecting you they're actually enjoying talking they'll answer any question you have for them but

00:46:43.280 they're like not taking part in that back and forth where they're not asking you any questions any

00:46:48.000 advice there so you just be like okay well this person's not going to ask me any questions

00:46:51.400 well this kind of goes back to the article on your on your website with the narcissism in

00:46:57.020 conversations and and that is a problem and people there's some people that are just you know they're

00:47:02.820 just so wrapped up in themselves that they just don't get it you know and and you can't i mean you

00:47:08.960 can but it's not going to do you any good you can't say oh god you know you could ask me a question

00:47:13.380 and i'd love to you know so you can't be that overt because that's that's a chide and people usually

00:47:21.740 don't take kindly to being you know criticized that way so what do you do well you have a couple

00:47:27.620 choices you can just grin and bear it which sometimes you have to do with friends because

00:47:32.640 there's just some friends that you know i've got a couple friends like that and you know they just

00:47:38.180 very rarely ask what's going on and they just talk about this and you know their lives but you can

00:47:44.940 also counter that by say well look you know i got there's something i've been meaning to tell you

00:47:50.960 about you know what i've been doing lately and i and so then you can interject some topic into the

00:47:58.980 conversation but you've got to be able to talk a little bit about it and why it's important to you

00:48:05.860 and you know what it is that you know you you you want them to know about it and be careful about

00:48:13.280 asking them an open-ended question in response to you know something that you're doing because then

00:48:19.180 the ball will just bounce back into their court an open-ended question is a question that that evokes

00:48:24.940 a more detailed response so you can say something like hey have i told you about the new book i'm

00:48:30.800 working on they say no but i don't really care which some people will say you know or or have you seen

00:48:39.500 that new that new movie you know that's out or have you heard this so those are closed-ended questions

00:48:44.600 that are going to get a short answer and then say wow it's really pretty interesting but i'm not going

00:48:51.000 to tell you you know the whole thing but here's here's kind of what it's about and they might say

00:48:56.640 what is it about so you have to to counter that non-stop talker you have to take the initiative and

00:49:06.560 just share a little bit more information and if the person interrupts you say wait a second wait a

00:49:11.160 second i'm not quite finished yet but don't make your story so long that the other person is going

00:49:19.380 to kind of begin to lose interest because they're not going to have that much interest in what you have

00:49:24.560 to say anyway because they want to talk about themselves so that's just kind of the way some people

00:49:31.200 are and the reality is you can't change other people but you can change your how you interact

00:49:37.700 with them all right so we've successfully broken the ice you've kept the conversation going by

00:49:43.680 asking follow-up questions listening to those keywords but now you got to exit the conversation

00:49:49.540 that's another people get awkward about that it's like well it's going to be awkward if i mess up the

00:49:53.820 exit so any any advice on exiting a conversation with grace sure and exiting the conversation is as

00:50:00.400 important as is entering it you want to do it the right way if you the wrong way is to say oh well

00:50:06.000 gotta go bye because then the person's saying oh so how does that leave the other person no i must

00:50:12.460 have said the wrong thing i'm boring the other person no he doesn't like me ah forget it i don't

00:50:17.680 like him either so you don't want that to happen so here's how you end the conversation the right way

00:50:22.840 first of all you restate something that the person told you briefly you restate it in a way that

00:50:30.400 shows him or her that a you were listening and that you enjoyed the conversation for example

00:50:35.280 that was really interesting hearing about your you know your new business i think it's a great idea

00:50:41.240 and i'd love to hear more about it maybe sometime you know the next meeting you can tell me how things

00:50:46.160 are going so what that's doing is by recapping the conversation briefly in a sentence or two you're a

00:50:52.580 showing the person that you were listening b that you appreciate what he or she said and three

00:50:57.860 most importantly to end the conversation is you're sending what's called a closing signal so people can

00:51:05.100 accept that you can end the conversation what they don't like is when it's ended abruptly that's what

00:51:09.700 leaves them uncomfortable so that closing signal is gives that person saying oh okay i think this

00:51:16.800 conversation is about to close then you use the person's name say you know brett's really been a

00:51:22.360 pleasure talking to you i'm really glad we got a chance to meet there's a couple of other people i want to

00:51:27.220 say hello to before the speaker starts so i'm i'm sure we'll get a chance to chat again soon

00:51:33.540 and you use that his or her name and nice friendly warm handshake good eye contact a smile and off you

00:51:42.520 go perfect well don speaking of don this has been a great conversation where can people go to learn

00:51:48.480 more about the book and your work or not the book but you have multiple books yeah i've i've written

00:51:54.000 a bunch of books on the topic and you can see them all at my website don gabor.com that's d-o-n-g-a-b-o-r

00:52:04.400 dot com and you know some workshops that i've done over the years and also a lot of my books are

00:52:12.280 published in foreign languages and so they're all up on the website too but you can also just go online to

00:52:17.800 any of your online favorite online bookstores or go to a real bookstore or a library and look for how

00:52:24.680 to start a conversation and make friends or just google my name don gabor and you'll find me well

00:52:29.700 don gabor thanks for your time it's been a pleasure thank you brett my guest today was don gabor he's

00:52:34.100 the author of several books including the one we talked about today how to start a conversation and

00:52:38.240 make friends it's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere also check out more information

00:52:42.560 about don's work at his website don gabor.com also check out our show notes at aom.is slash

00:52:47.680 conversation where you can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic

00:52:50.940 well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast check out our website at

00:53:01.880 artofmanless.com where you can find our podcast archives as well as thousands of articles we've

00:53:05.900 written over the years on things like social skills we got a whole series on social skills so go check

00:53:09.820 that out and if you'd like to enjoy ad free episodes of the art of manliness podcast you can

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00:53:37.580 continued support and until next time this is brett mckay reminding you not only to listen to the

00:53:41.060 aom podcast but put what you've heard into action

The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

#548： How to Start and Sustain Conversations

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