The Art of Manliness - #549： Leadership Lessons from the Gridiron's Greatest Coaches

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast why do some nfl

00:00:12.360 teams dominate year after year now some would chalk it up to talent but my guest today says

00:00:17.560 it all comes down to the culture that the head coach intentionally develops for the entire

00:00:21.760 organization his name is michael lombardi and he's the author of gridiron genius a master class in

00:00:26.720 building teams and winning at the highest level for over three decades lombardi has worked as a

00:00:30.940 general manager or coach for various nfl teams and he's worked along some of the greatest coaches

00:00:35.240 of the game including bill walsh al davis and bill belichick today on the show michael walks us

00:00:40.000 through what these coaches did to develop high-performing teams and how those lessons can

00:00:43.740 apply to leaders and other kinds of organizations as well we begin our conversation discussing how

00:00:47.960 legendary 49ers coach bill walsh created standards of performance and a culture of excellence that

00:00:52.560 turned the worst team in the league into super bowl champions within two years michael then shares

00:00:56.720 the qualities top coaches and players possess and how recruiters of every kind can really figure out

00:01:01.400 whether or not someone will be successful at the next level michael then shares what leaders can

00:01:05.300 learn from walsh's innovating west coast offense why belichick obsesses about special teams how

00:01:10.020 belichick and nick saving came with the new approach to defense and how bill belichick prepares for games

00:01:14.400 and fights complacency we also get into the importance of how a qb carries himself and why it's important

00:01:19.760 to begin to drive down the field with an energizing play and we end our conversation with michael's

00:01:24.200 predictions for the future of football including how we're starting to see a return to the game's

00:01:28.520 rugby roots after the show's over check out our show notes at aom.is slash gridiron

00:01:33.280 all right michael lombardi welcome to the show thank you it's great to be here i appreciate you

00:01:49.540 having me i'm excited to join you well tell us about your career you uh have been in the game

00:01:53.960 of football as a coach and as a general manager for a while how did that happen well i mean it

00:01:58.700 really started in in with a television set you know a lot of people were influenced by elvis on the

00:02:05.140 ed sullivan show i was influenced by a guy that looked like he belonged at all my sunday dinners

00:02:10.760 looked like he was my uncle he had a big nose olive skin and i thought jeez this guy should be and

00:02:16.320 he has the same last name as me so maybe i should try to follow his career path and i did and and i

00:02:23.420 fell in love with the game of football i fell in love with the idea of being in the nfl and i just

00:02:27.740 really went through high school and college with the idea that i was going to be in the nfl and work

00:02:32.940 i played this game stratomatic baseball when i was a kid even though it's a baseball game it was about

00:02:39.240 team building and me and this kid danny reynolds and michael sonino we we played countless hours on

00:02:45.840 this board in my mother's kitchen and we wore out our dining room set and i fell in love with team

00:02:51.460 building and i fell in love with drafting and so that kind of with lombardi and then that and then

00:02:56.660 listening to springsteen telling me to go chase my dreams those three things were the perfect storm

00:03:00.940 so you did you have any ambitions to play football or did you know at a young age you weren't going to

00:03:05.680 play that you were going to be somewhere doing something else with the game i mean i knew that

00:03:09.780 i wasn't going to be able to play at the highest level i did play college football at hopstra

00:03:13.580 i played high school football i played college football but i knew that you know just based on

00:03:19.280 most people at that sunday dinner we were all short squatty and ate 20 carbs that i probably wasn't

00:03:25.540 going to be involved in the nfl or my talent level so i i just tried to study the game when i was in

00:03:31.480 college right i would go to coaching seminars my freshman sophomore junior and senior years all

00:03:38.000 throughout the country in january and february i wanted to learn about football i wanted to study

00:03:42.940 football from a from a coaching standpoint because i knew this is what i was going to do

00:03:47.080 so and you ended up working with some of the greatest coaches in the game you know bill walsh

00:03:53.140 belichick i mean was that sort of chance that happened or did you put yourself in a position to work

00:03:57.660 with those guys because you saw that they were doing something different with the game i mean it

00:04:02.120 was serendipitous by far i mean i got a job at the 49ers to basically be bill walsh's driver i mean

00:04:08.040 and they hired me because i wanted to be in personnel i would work for real relatively little money

00:04:13.500 and i worked in personnel and i got to befriend him and he needed something and the timing was

00:04:19.140 right it was the perfect storm it's you know i had walsh you know he had a beautiful car he needed

00:04:24.760 somebody to drive him there was no car phone it was so i was there and i just worked with him and

00:04:30.060 then when i went to go to cleveland probably the biggest mistake in my career leaving walsh i stood

00:04:36.680 a stay with bill for longer but then in 1991 i meet this guy named bill belichick and that changed my

00:04:42.720 life and and really just had being around him he taught me more about football how to think about

00:04:48.380 football and we developed the grading system in cleveland that's universal to what they use in

00:04:54.920 new england today what they use at the university of alabama iowa many other places so a lot of it

00:05:00.940 was serendipitous by far so in your book gridiron genius you talk about the insights you've got

00:05:06.940 from working with these these coaches about leadership team formation strategy and i want to dig into

00:05:14.980 this stuff because not only is this stuff applicable to football but it's applicable to other aspects of

00:05:19.900 life let's talk about bill walsh first he was the guy you first started working with for those not who

00:05:25.140 aren't familiar with bill walsh what's his story so coach walsh started out as a you know played at san

00:05:31.480 jose state a really smart cerebral guy very divergent in thought you know he always saw coaching as teaching

00:05:38.740 he didn't see coaching as yelling at players he wanted to teach and he wanted to be divergent

00:05:43.760 and he worked his way up to the ranks he worked at the raiders he worked in a lot of different teams

00:05:49.220 and he got a job with the expansion cincinnati bengals and he had a quarterback named craig

00:05:55.220 virgil carter virgil cook who could throw the ball craig cook who could throw the ball but it got hurt

00:05:59.740 and then he had another quarterback that didn't have a strong arm so he devised this thing called the west

00:06:04.600 coast offense which we know today and it's really a basically long handoffs to get your receivers in space

00:06:12.200 and not try to run the ball so he was divergent in thought and then he was all about building a culture

00:06:17.440 organization that he could adhere to and he could that he believed organizations won not cultures and he used to

00:06:24.800 tell me driving him in that car that you know you've got to read books about tom peters you've got to read

00:06:31.700 in search of excellence you've got to read warren bennis you've got to read peter drucker because we are in the

00:06:37.660 leadership business not just you know we're not gym teachers where we throw out the kickballs and

00:06:42.520 say okay everybody let's play there's an intellectual side to this game and that really empowered me to

00:06:48.940 learn that and i spent most of my career studying that so football is a business and business can be

00:06:55.100 football and walsh was the first one to show me that and then when i met belichick that all came

00:07:00.320 into fruition well we'll talk about the the west coast offense that innovation that bill walsh made here

00:07:05.960 it more in a bit but i want to focus on this culture aspect that's what you start off talking

00:07:09.140 in the book that the foundation of the 49ers success was the the creation of a culture that was done by

00:07:16.280 bill walsh what did the culture of the 49ers look like before walsh became came in as head coach

00:07:21.860 and what changes did he make it was completely a mess i mean joe thomas was the general manager and

00:07:27.160 he controlled the game from the general manager's chair which walsh knew was wrong right like the coach

00:07:33.360 has to really run the team he has to be in charge there has to be a player personnel philosophy

00:07:38.060 of the players they're acquiring that wasn't the case so when walsh took over in 1979 he basically

00:07:45.140 took over an expansion team the only problem was they traded all these draft picks for a guy named

00:07:50.120 oj simpson who was washed up and done and so not only did he take over a team that was really bad the

00:07:56.080 team had no assets so it was worse than expansion team and the first thing he did was put a culture in

00:08:02.280 place he talked about what everybody in the organization needed to be able to do don't even

00:08:07.800 pay attention to the scoreboard pay attention to your job pay attention to your role in this company

00:08:12.780 always put the team first always behave in a manner of a 49er and he defined the manner for what he wanted

00:08:19.120 you to behave in so it was very detailed and he focused on not the scoreboard but the organization

00:08:26.120 and what it was going to take and everything else once he built that he felt like would take off

00:08:31.440 and this was uh he called it his standard of performance the sort of checklist of things

00:08:35.660 that he was focused on yeah that's that was something he would go over 17 principles and

00:08:42.140 they were really small and minor but he reminded you of them every day and here's the beautiful thing

00:08:47.680 he never really differentiated from the woman who answered the phone carrie parham

00:08:52.560 to joe montana the starting quarterback they both jobs were expected to be meet the standard of

00:09:00.080 performance that's what he expected and so in the book i talk about how he told me to remind him to

00:09:05.980 fire the pa announcer because that guy had to had to adhere to the same philosophy and the same beliefs

00:09:13.260 so you know he he held everyone accountable and accountability is the number one thing in creating

00:09:20.620 culture where everybody's accountable culture can't be for one person and not for somebody else

00:09:26.420 it has to be for all yeah so i mean a few of these standards of performance that he does 17

00:09:31.300 principles i mean it's really like you would read this list be like well that's really banal but i

00:09:34.980 mean i think that's the beauty of it right i mean it's things just like demonstrate character

00:09:38.700 be fair be deeply committed to learning and teaching uh when i read those reminded me a little bit of john

00:09:44.500 wooden and his uh and his sort of you know really like homespung principles that he passed on to his

00:09:51.000 players no doubt i think wouldn't really influence coach walsh and i think that simple is always the

00:09:57.720 best way but so often we get caught up into thinking we have to be complex and systems and

00:10:04.180 organizations and and you know common sense oftentimes isn't common and common sense when

00:10:11.000 you're putting together an organization does go a long way and people need to be reminded of it and

00:10:15.840 people also need to be held to a a standard and they need to be coached on it i think you just you

00:10:22.840 know people think culture is something like when you call the pest control company and they come over

00:10:28.200 and spray to kill the bugs right they spray and they leave well culture when walsh walked in the

00:10:33.400 building every morning his job is to maintain and drive the culture he didn't assume it was all going

00:10:39.240 to be the same so that's the big difference is culture is something you have to work on

00:10:44.020 every single day and that's why it has to be simplistic it can't be complex or else people

00:10:49.200 won't comprehend it and what was the the effect of the standard of performance like how did it turn

00:10:54.140 the team around it took two years but eventually he did you know and he really wasn't worried about

00:11:00.180 he wasn't worried about finding a quarterback or finding a receiver he was more worried about finding

00:11:06.820 the right players he was much like what belichick talks about we're not trying to collect talent we're

00:11:12.620 building a team he felt like if he built the organization first he could get the players to

00:11:17.980 play at the higher level that he could coach them to a higher level and that's the same in business

00:11:23.000 you know the most talented team doesn't win it's the team that works together that wins the most

00:11:27.520 so yeah the other coach you've worked with in your career and you spent a lot of time

00:11:31.260 focused on the book is bill belichick were him and bill walsh sort of cut from the same cloth

00:11:35.960 you know other than the way they dress completely completely never raised their voice highly

00:11:41.860 intellectual could see problems and the next book i'm going to write is going to be

00:11:47.020 the secret to all victory lies in the organization of the non-obvious it's a quote attributed to marcus

00:11:53.260 aurelius although even though he didn't say it it's really the genius of these two men they were able

00:11:58.620 to see what the non-obvious is and they could organize that and they worked on those details and that's

00:12:04.320 kept them so far ahead of the game that most people can't see it i think i like it too when

00:12:09.940 you know sherlock holmes the the the the novel the character the fictional character when he walks

00:12:17.160 into a crime scene and he sees seven things and everybody sees them but yet he can use deductive

00:12:23.040 reasoning to explain what they mean further that's walsh and belichick they had this unique ability to

00:12:28.520 see the non-obvious and they could prepare their teams and they also understood their number one job

00:12:33.820 was to drive culture today belichick's job is not to devise new plays for tom brady to devise new

00:12:40.720 defenses to maintain his culture every day and did so i mean bill belichick he's created this dynasty

00:12:46.940 with the new england patriots he's got to start in cleveland did is has anything changed from when he

00:12:53.740 was a coach at cleveland to when he's a coach now with the patriots everybody likes to think so

00:12:58.960 especially the people in cleveland but having worked with him in both places i would say the

00:13:03.820 only difference is robert craft allows him to build the culture and modell really didn't understand what

00:13:09.860 he was trying to do modell was more interested in winning the fans over appeasing the fans giving

00:13:15.900 them something he used to tell me all the time kid kid we got to give we got we sell hope here we got

00:13:20.620 to sell hope that's not belichick belichick's about getting the team his messages to the 60 players in

00:13:26.380 the room not the three million the the winning will get to the players we'll get to the court

00:13:30.960 so the only difference and the only real difference was modell really didn't understand what bill was

00:13:35.660 trying to do culture wise and craft wanted a culture so you spent a lot of your career helping

00:13:41.240 teams hire coaches when you're out scouting for a coach what are you looking at like how do you know

00:13:47.020 if a coach is a good coach well i mean it's no different than hiring talent i tell people all the

00:13:52.960 time you know the fbi doesn't open up the phone book and look for serial killers you must define

00:13:58.320 what you want in your coach and it really comes down to really and i wrote about the five areas

00:14:03.440 of leadership in my book but essentially it's four areas of leadership that must be adhered to

00:14:09.180 to have a great coach the first one's called management of attention and that means you have a

00:14:13.700 plan you come in with a complaint when bill belichick walked in my office in 1991 he handed me a piece of

00:14:19.140 paper which i will give to the hall of fame the day he goes in i own that paper and it said exactly who

00:14:25.580 we were going to be as a football team this is what what he wanted and we developed a grading system to

00:14:30.960 build that that's management of attention the second is called management of meaning which means you can

00:14:35.740 explain your plan to people you can explain it to everybody who's involved and they get it they

00:14:40.300 understand it using metaphors using comedy using video however you do it you can explain it the third is

00:14:46.640 management of trust are you going to be consistent enough to where the players trust you or are you

00:14:51.320 going to have double standards for different people in the organization again the standard of performance

00:14:55.320 management of trust can i trust you to be consistent the fourth and final area is management of self

00:15:01.420 are you going to look internally to yourself and grow admit your mistakes find ways to improve as

00:15:07.540 you're on the job every single coach that i've researched in my career that won super bowls was good in

00:15:12.940 three of the four the ones that are not are only good in two and you can see it pretty clearly you

00:15:18.980 can see it at a press conference you can see that when they talk to the team you can see that they fail

00:15:24.240 in two of the four the ones that are good in all four like belichick and walsh they win consistently

00:15:30.020 you know i think it's interesting is that you kind of came to the inside eventually you're not looking

00:15:34.500 for a coach you're looking for a leader so i think when people think i'm looking for a coach is a guy's

00:15:38.580 got strategies coming with new plays but all those things you talked about are the same thing you'd

00:15:42.980 look for in a you know chief executive no doubt it's the same position and this is what's happened

00:15:48.020 to the nfl that's why there's such a i mean brett think about this now belichick has won 78 games

00:15:54.600 the last five years his next closest competition are the chiefs at 60 he's lapped the field by 18 games

00:16:04.020 so he's really lapped this field it's it's it's way way way he's increased his dominance over the league

00:16:12.740 further and the reason is is because teams are hiring coaches who know schemes but they can't lead groups

00:16:19.700 so they'll have a good year and then they'll have a down year as walsh told me you know we're only

00:16:24.540 competing against eight teams here this is when the league had 28 teams and i wondered what he was

00:16:29.740 thinking about and i thought it was more about you know which team had a quarterback or which team

00:16:35.060 did this and really it was about eight cultures and today in the nfl there's really only eight

00:16:40.000 cultures you know no team understands how to build a culture and half the problem is when you talk

00:16:46.500 culture they have no idea what you're talking about so all these coaches walsh belichick there's

00:16:51.580 sort of like they have a coaching tree right coaches that they've coached they've gone on

00:16:55.100 and coached their own teams are there any other coaches in the nfl that have worked with these

00:16:59.240 guys that really understood this this importance of culture i don't think so and i think they miss

00:17:04.540 it i think they're not often some of these guys have had success in copying the offense i mean when

00:17:11.880 you look at walsh's tree mike holmgren had success in green bay but he had ron wolf when when he went

00:17:17.420 to seattle it wasn't quite as successful but it was so there's exceptions belichick hasn't had that

00:17:22.700 because too often belichick disciples try to be belichick you know i always tell people look

00:17:29.020 you know when frank sinatra in the 70s was losing his audience he put on a leisure suit and put beads

00:17:34.340 around his neck and he wasn't sinatra anymore he wasn't authentic nobody believed him the people in

00:17:39.280 the 70s didn't like him and his the people that loved him hated him again hated him so you have to

00:17:44.300 be authentic in who you are you're a tuxedo cufflink guy wear a tuxedo and cufflink even if it's not

00:17:49.760 popular and i think that's what the biggest issue has been with belichick's guys that have left

00:17:54.340 walsh's guys have had some success holmgren but they had more success staying at san francisco where

00:18:01.120 the culture was in place than when they went to steve mariucci went to detroit or george secret went

00:18:06.380 to carolina or ray rhodes went to philadelphia or went to green bay they've had more success in san

00:18:13.080 francisco than they have when they try to do it on their own well it seems like one coach in the at

00:18:16.800 the collegiate level at least who kind of gets it or who gets it is nick saban he worked with belichick

00:18:21.220 and he's different he's still nick saban but he gets the importance of culture from belichick

00:18:26.840 no doubt and it was a great marriage of the two of them i mean they're both they're both different

00:18:31.160 but they're both similar but nick used to complain i laugh all the time we would have a staff meeting at

00:18:37.840 five o'clock after wednesdays and thursdays practice and nick would always say to me you know dog

00:18:42.800 this is killing me i got too much work to do to be sitting in this staff meeting as bill's running

00:18:47.300 the tape and at alabama after wednesdays and thursdays practice they have a staff meeting and

00:18:53.240 nick runs the tape so sometimes what you don't think is right for you ends up being right for everyone

00:18:58.680 so you mentioned earlier that belichick he's not interested in collecting talent he's interested in

00:19:03.700 forming a team what does that look like how do these guys go about recruiting a successful team

00:19:09.860 it really starts with this one premise if then it starts with mental toughness and they define

00:19:15.980 mental toughness as doing what's right for the team when it might not be right for you

00:19:20.040 and so when you value the name on the front of your jersey more than you value the name on the back of

00:19:25.980 your jersey you're probably going to be able to play at the patriots you know and so he then figures out

00:19:32.000 players that fit the system that he wants so he defines what he wants with this grading system

00:19:37.060 and then he finds players that fit that system but they also fit the description of mental toughness

00:19:42.820 he wants to be a physically mentally tough team that can play in any physical any environment weather

00:19:49.240 wise and can focus and concentrate and win in the fourth quarter and is willing to do the things needed

00:19:54.800 to be successful so he's no different than the navy seals he's trying to eliminate people not find

00:20:01.960 people and through elimination he ends up having a core group of players that together bond now when

00:20:08.580 his players leave and go other places they never look as successful as they did in new england

00:20:13.120 partly because they're not playing within the role they're not playing within the name on the front

00:20:18.040 they're more about the name on the back and things don't go as well well recruiting players is really

00:20:23.240 hard because when you're especially when they're in college you see them you see their statistics they do

00:20:28.440 well in college but then when they get to the pro level they don't do as well there's been a lot of

00:20:32.420 you know recent examples of that but then also like how do you figure out those more soft attributes

00:20:37.520 where there's not a real like number for it right whether they're a team player whether they're hard

00:20:41.440 working whether they got mental toughness like as a recruit recruiter how do you figure that stuff out

00:20:46.600 well you know past performance predicts future achievement so you know when you interview a kid you have to ask

00:20:53.480 questions or you interview an employee you can't ask general questions you'll get general answers

00:20:58.200 you know if i said to a young man do you work hard every answer that i've ever gotten back in my 35 year

00:21:04.700 nfl career has been oh yeah man i work really hard but if i ask the question give me five examples of how you

00:21:10.240 work hard all of a sudden humda humda humda comes into play you know if they said hey i just got back from

00:21:16.180 lifting weights and you say to them well give me the five the five exercises you did weights and how many reps

00:21:22.680 with each all of a sudden now they start stammering when you ask specifically what they do and you

00:21:28.600 don't get the answer back you need you know and then you could say to them hey what was your greatest

00:21:32.840 moment in high school and they talk about well i gained 200 yards against uh ocean city high well

00:21:38.440 what about did you win any games yeah we won the state championship well that now that tells you who

00:21:42.960 this guy is right you know right and so you can learn a lot as yo givera said you can see a lot from

00:21:49.760 looking and if you look at the right places and ask the right questions you'll find what you want

00:21:54.300 and another thing you all did was you actually checked the references right and besides just

00:21:59.520 asking the the kid the questions about his performance like you'd go into the town where

00:22:04.340 you grew up and like ask teachers girlfriends neighbors uh about the kid no doubt i mean look

00:22:10.420 we're in a multi-billion dollar industry and kids are going to behave the way they want us to see them

00:22:16.680 but when you go to their hometown and you start snooping around in their hometown or you go to

00:22:20.980 the college instead of going to the football office which the football office is never going to talk bad

00:22:25.900 about their players because that that hurts their recruiting they're going to lie to you we know that

00:22:30.600 so if you go to the local tavern or you go to the sororities and ask about player x y or z

00:22:36.600 they pretty much know what's going on they'll give you the real scoop and then you can paint an accurate

00:22:40.880 picture of the guy all right so there's some advice there for hiring even if you're not you're not in

00:22:45.300 football check the references and then get specific with your questions no doubt and you

00:22:51.100 got to prepare yourself the the and then the questions that they ask you back really tell you

00:22:57.640 more about who they are you know that's really you if you if they're asking dumb questions you may not

00:23:03.520 have you may not have somebody you want to hire really smart questions should intrigue you it's what

00:23:09.380 they ask you as much as what you ask them were there any instances in your career where you were

00:23:13.940 recruiting and a player on the numbers wise didn't look like he had a lot of talent there maybe

00:23:19.120 there's other talented players right he was he was good but not as great as some of these other guys

00:23:23.440 but you went ahead and went with him because he had some of those intangibles where you thought

00:23:27.280 this guy could be a part of the team and he ended up doing really well oh you know that's really

00:23:31.840 and if you fit him in the right role yeah i mean we've done that quite a bit i mean when you look at

00:23:37.600 like i think jimmy garoppolo you know when we drafted jimmy in new england

00:23:41.140 he really didn't you know he was in the second round there were four other quarterbacks picked in

00:23:45.900 front of him but we brought him in that day and he and he was we knew he could handle tom brady

00:23:51.960 and not be intimidated by him we knew he had the attributes to go in a room and be able to not be

00:23:58.500 in all of the greatest quarterback of all time so yeah you really need to understand what's exactly

00:24:04.560 you're looking for and if the player fits and sometimes you know look you're going to make mistakes but

00:24:09.720 here's the valuable thing you have to do when you make a mistake instead of sitting there and not

00:24:14.440 admitting your mistake you got to do an autopsy on why you made the mistake and you got to really

00:24:19.820 dig deep and be honest with yourself to figure out why you made that mistake we'll stick into uh

00:24:25.340 specific parts of the game you look at special teams and you talk about how bilichick is actually

00:24:30.820 really obsessed with special teams because that's that's a part of the game that gets overlooked by fans

00:24:35.200 it's like okay the punt team comes on they punt they're off the field why did belichick or why

00:24:40.660 does belichick obsess about special teams and what do you think that what do you think that shows what

00:24:44.620 insight about leadership can we get from that well first of all he he's trying to build a culture right

00:24:49.160 and if he says that the special teams coach i i don't really care about special teams i just care

00:24:54.140 about offensive defense his culture falls apart but if he makes everybody on the team play one special

00:24:59.300 teams then everybody's all in and if you have a special teams practice and you have guys engaged

00:25:05.380 in special teams they have to pay attention then they're building a team when you coach the players

00:25:10.640 on special teams being important you really are who you want to become and so that's what he does he

00:25:17.260 allows that to set the tempo for his team i think and i write about it in the book that's what bill

00:25:23.040 snyder he took over kansas state i'm sure you remember how bad kansas state was yeah and he built

00:25:29.120 it through the kicking game because he wanted an all-in as angela duckworth says becoming all-in

00:25:34.040 has a tornado effect and belichick knows if he can win the special teams then he gets an all-in

00:25:40.720 mentality and helps him build this culture yeah and as you said special teams is interesting because

00:25:45.120 you have players from both defense and offense working on it so it carries over to the other

00:25:50.280 aspects of the game as well no doubt and you need them because you know when you value it so now the

00:25:55.620 game's on the line and we need a return or we can't have penalties on special teams you know

00:26:01.420 they've been educated they've been taught this and if you're playing complementary football which means

00:26:06.480 you need your offense to affect your defense and your kicking game to affect all of it and you're

00:26:11.640 teaching that which bell tech does every wednesday thursday and friday then that's really important that

00:26:17.240 you engage your team in special teams well let's talk about offense so we mentioned earlier bill

00:26:21.900 walsh is the guy that developed west the west coast offense for those who aren't familiar with the

00:26:26.420 implications of it like how was such a revolutionary thing what was football like before walsh introduced

00:26:32.900 the west coast offense it was all about establishing the run it was about three yards in a cloud of dust

00:26:39.160 it was get you know run the ball quarterbacks didn't really want to throw it very much i mean

00:26:43.840 bob greasy i think threw 14 passes in the super bowl in 1972 that beat the redskins i mean

00:26:50.480 it was a game in between the hash marks it was a it was a trench warfare but then the rules changed

00:26:57.000 and like everything it opened up the game pass blocking became easier for offensive linemen so

00:27:03.380 then therefore you know you could throw the ball and the game moved it was always two backs in the

00:27:08.860 backfield and it was always you know two receivers and i like it to the movie industry and i read about

00:27:16.060 this in the book bob evans the robert evans the head of paramount decided you know he couldn't compete

00:27:21.360 with all the other studios so instead of trying and because all the other studios had money to hire

00:27:26.560 actors everything was about the actor you know hire john wayne hire this actor and you're going to have

00:27:32.540 a hit movie so he went the opposite direction he hired writers so he bought books he bought love story

00:27:38.820 the godfather he bought all these books and turned them into movies using obscure actors because he

00:27:45.300 could afford it and that propelled paramount back into business again and it's the same thing in the

00:27:50.140 nfl once the rules changed you had to stay ahead of the curve and now it became a passing league and

00:27:56.080 walsh was the cornerstone and was on the head of that and then he became very creative and divergent in

00:28:01.920 those thoughts yeah i like that evans example because that's an example of a an executive working with

00:28:07.540 what he has and actually it at first blush it looks like you're limited but can actually turn

00:28:13.440 into an advantage and the same thing happened with walsh like the way he came up with came up with the

00:28:16.580 west coast offense was he he had a quarterback that was okay and he could only could throw sort of short

00:28:22.400 passes but that was it but he built an offense around that guy and revolutionized the game in the

00:28:26.860 process no doubt and i think you know there's a great scene in apollo 13 where i think we all in and

00:28:32.900 whether you're in football you're a high school coach who's ever listened to this you know you're the

00:28:36.980 women's lacrosse coach whatever you know you're you're like the scene in apollo 13 where they have

00:28:43.620 that giant table and these scientists are sitting around the table and the guys are stuck up in space

00:28:48.420 and this guy walks in with a box and and throws stuff on the table and says we have to make this

00:28:54.460 into that using nothing but this and that's really the essence of what you are as a leader you've got to

00:29:01.740 figure out where you need to go figure out what you have and then get it done and not complain about

00:29:07.800 it don't spend time worrying about what you don't have you know sometimes when you're in companies

00:29:12.460 you're well we don't have any money we don't have that money doesn't solve any problem thinking solves

00:29:17.680 all problems right i mean you see that in baseball there's a lot of teams with a lot of baseball with

00:29:21.740 a lot of money and it's it's not solving the problem of losing that's right and we see it all the

00:29:26.600 time i mean you know look at the look at the washington nationals i mean that you know that

00:29:31.880 they let bryce harper go and they're in the playoffs and the phillies are watching right that well that's

00:29:38.300 that idea that again when that happens people think it's talent right we'll win games but when it's a

00:29:43.540 team like so it's a it's a build-up of a team that wins the game and understanding what what truly

00:29:49.420 helps when i used to get on the team plane and i worked for al davis he would always say to me

00:29:53.840 do you know why we won do you know why we lost and if you can't define in your business why you

00:29:59.120 win or why you lose most of the time most people don't understand what business they're really in

00:30:06.140 they defined it poorly and and that's why they're not having a success because they really don't

00:30:12.960 understand what they're in ray crock wasn't in the hamburger business he was in the real estate

00:30:16.980 business all of a sudden he became a billionaire you know and so you have to understand what truly is

00:30:22.700 your business and what and how you can benefit from that and most of the time teams and sports

00:30:29.020 don't really get that they think they're in one thing and they're not i mean people think amazon

00:30:33.220 is a is a you buy products on it they're a logistics company right you know and they and they do it

00:30:40.960 better than anybody so it's how you define who you are so in the west coast offense the quarterback

00:30:46.780 plays an important role in it because they have to make sometimes decisions the last minute it's not

00:30:52.700 you don't go into play knowing you're gonna throw this guy you west coast offense gives you options

00:30:57.420 to throw based on what's thrown at you so they have to be able to think on their feet think with

00:31:02.320 fluidity like how did these how did bill walsh go about finding a good quarterback that could do that

00:31:08.560 what was he looking for he wanted somebody with great foot quickness he wanted somebody who could

00:31:13.000 move he wanted a boxer like muhammad ali that could move around the ring he wanted somebody that could

00:31:18.640 could move quickly and throw quickly he wasn't concerned about arm strength he was concerned

00:31:24.200 about rhythm and timing and anticipation he was really wanted somebody that had a feel for the

00:31:30.300 position you know we called it a crib thing when your mama lifts you from your crib you either have it or

00:31:34.780 you don't right and so he wanted that crib thing he wanted that mentality and and you could see it and

00:31:41.860 he wanted guys that had past performance you know typically great quarterbacks are great quarterbacks in high

00:31:47.300 school they just don't show up i mean one of ryan tannahill's biggest problems the backup quarterback

00:31:52.180 at tennessee is you know he played wide receiver he's not instinctively a quarterback you know

00:31:57.880 quarterback's not a position that you just learn into you kind of have a feel for it and walsh was

00:32:03.540 always looking for those guys that could so yeah he spotted joe montana steve young and those guys

00:32:09.540 were dominant in the game yeah i mean he went and worked out james owens down in los angeles and

00:32:15.200 montana was there and you know and there it all happened he saw montana nobody loved montana's arm

00:32:22.100 strength they didn't think he they thought he was a backup and bill solomon like okay this is exactly

00:32:27.480 what i want and again it's the perfect way to do it because he was going against the variance of the

00:32:32.940 marketplace right he fixed montana in the third round meanwhile guys are getting picked in the first

00:32:37.520 round that aren't as good and what really made it really interesting is is there was a quarterback at

00:32:42.580 stanford that bill had coached when he was at stanford and bill didn't use his bias he used the

00:32:48.960 objectivity to pick the right guy for him so he saw what he really needed and montana was better

00:32:55.480 and so he picked montana yeah and in the book you highlight some of the factors that you all look for

00:33:00.700 in a quarterback because the quarterback is essentially he's like a command it's a battle

00:33:04.860 command leader like he's on the field leading the team and so you're looking for traits that help

00:33:09.860 in that like one one trait was carriage which is basically how he carries himself which i think

00:33:14.820 let me dig in more of that what does good carriage look like to you well i mean look you know you're

00:33:20.100 the leader of the team your team has to have your personality right teams that don't have a

00:33:24.300 quarterback's personality don't doesn't have a personality so you've got to carry yourself your job

00:33:30.020 if you're the highest paid player on the team is to make somebody else is to make everybody else better

00:33:33.880 and you've got to be able to motivate yell the man your your persona of who you are the prom king

00:33:41.160 you know that's the quarterback you got to have that and it sends and it inflicts confidence into

00:33:47.800 everybody else around them you know and you feel it there's a leadership that goes on the field hey

00:33:53.220 fellas we're in the huddle we got to get this guys come on we're going to get this don't you worry

00:33:56.900 and you'll get people to follow you but if you're in the huddle well all right we're going to run this

00:34:01.460 you know who's following you are there any quarterbacks in the game today that you think

00:34:05.020 have good carriage oh i think philip rivers has incredible i mean he's just so into it you you

00:34:09.920 know i i love when i want i love the i watch him play i think deshaun watson has got it i think he

00:34:16.260 understands it i think that you know patrick mahomes clearly has it you can tell you can feel it and

00:34:22.720 then there's guys like i mean jared goff just made a boatload of money but i don't feel it from him

00:34:27.240 is he a good player yeah but he relies on other people being good

00:34:30.560 but i think you can pretty much spot it and if your team doesn't get its personality from the

00:34:35.880 quarterback where are we going to get it from we got to get it from somewhere because the coach

00:34:41.140 and the quarterback is who drives the team let's talk about defense so we mentioned earlier that

00:34:47.320 belichick worked with saban when they were at cleveland and they came up with a new approach to

00:34:51.800 defense what did that approach look like well so they understood that the the best way to win games

00:34:57.940 in the nfl was real simple keep people from scoring not revolutionary right but where do people score

00:35:04.860 most of their points like there was a they did an analytical study about putts right they went

00:35:10.460 through and they studied a thousand ten thousand hundred thousand putts all over the the pga and the

00:35:17.080 conclusion that they found out about putts was the ones that are closer to the hole usually are the

00:35:22.100 easier to make not revolutionary right so it's the same thing belichick and saban did if we if we can

00:35:27.840 stop scoring we'll be a better defense but where do we stop scoring and that's the red zone and so

00:35:33.360 they focused their attention on the red zone defense the area in from the 20 yard line to the back end

00:35:39.420 line of the red zone that's called the red zone and they played a different style of football down there

00:35:44.140 so that became much more difficult for teams to score and they were able to turn the ball over down there

00:35:50.140 and they were able to create field goals instead of touchdowns those four point plays really helped

00:35:55.740 keep the game down so when you go down there in the red zone and you don't score a touchdown and you

00:36:00.380 have to kick a field goal you know that's four points come off the scoreboard that hurts you at the

00:36:04.780 end of the game that's where belichick and saban really we called it red two and that's where they

00:36:10.240 really had great success about being able to keep people from scoring real simple but oftentimes overlooked

00:36:17.800 yeah i mean it's deceptively simple because it basically it's a three four cover two defense

00:36:23.000 and it's the same thing all the time but once the play is called and run like there's different

00:36:27.660 permutations of it that can happen after the the ball snapped yeah and so it's like zone basketball

00:36:34.120 zones and basketball you know it's how do you move your zone and and at some point all zone defenses

00:36:40.880 become man based on the distribution of the receivers or the basketball players and so that's

00:36:46.460 well they did it and so because people were running certain routes down there they could play certain

00:36:51.520 routes and they took those routes away and people didn't for a while didn't have an answer it took a

00:36:56.280 long time for them to adjust to it i mean some other insights you you highlight in the book that

00:37:00.720 regular folks people who are just in business can take from how belichick and saban manage their

00:37:05.860 defensive teams you know things like about understanding timing in and off and like in disrupting your

00:37:11.560 opponent's timing that that that's key in in a successful defense yeah i mean it's all about

00:37:17.500 like you have to understand like the 12 most important plays in a football game or the 24 most

00:37:23.660 important plays in a football game are what we call drive starters if you start to drive with a big play

00:37:29.700 first and 10 you hit a 40 yard pass you're going to score probably 75 of the time but if you hand the

00:37:35.960 ball off and get three yards you're probably not going to score because there could be a one play that

00:37:40.580 makes you go so if you start your drive with a really good drive starter you can get places and

00:37:47.180 if you conversely if you start the opponent's drive with a negative play you're going to get off the

00:37:52.160 field so if you spend time on those 12 plays hey we're going to start to drive with this we're going

00:37:57.360 to start to drive with this defense or this offense you can create a variant you can create a variance

00:38:02.740 and you can help you set yourself up now you're not going to hit them all but that's the mentality that

00:38:07.600 you have to think about there's also this point that i liked it's if you're not talking you're not

00:38:11.840 winning what do you mean by that communication is the number one thing in all sports it's why

00:38:16.380 belichick doesn't want to put jersey numbers on young players he wants them to talk he wants them

00:38:21.500 to communicate to one another as human beings not 49 not 63 so we communication is vital in every

00:38:29.100 business you know we're in an age of communication yet i think sometimes we communicate less with one

00:38:33.980 another you know we have text we have email we have phone we have all these ways and sometimes

00:38:39.000 we lack communication like how can there be an interpretation problem when we have all these

00:38:43.820 ability to communicate and you've got to work at communication you know you've got to work at it so

00:38:48.440 that people are all on the same page because once again when you're working as a team you know it's

00:38:53.060 really important that we function as a team not just work as a team so at the end of the book you

00:38:58.480 walk us through a week before a game of how belichick prepares his team to play a game this

00:39:05.340 was this was a playoff game but i imagine it was the same thing for every game even if it was just a

00:39:09.600 regular season game like how i mean can you get so i mean you can't go into the detail exactly what

00:39:15.000 you talked about in the book but give us an idea of how much preparation how much thought belichick

00:39:19.540 goes into game preparation well i mean he's he really does a wonderful job of breaking down what the

00:39:25.980 team can do and what they can't do and then he communicates that to his team and then he tells

00:39:31.080 the team how we have to play the game to win here's what we need to do we call it the points of

00:39:36.120 emphasis offensively defensively and naturally in the kicking game and then we start practicing that

00:39:41.760 week on those points of emphasis and we're driving home the critical moments of the game hey it's third

00:39:47.340 and one we need to be able to make a play here hey we need to do this and so all week is really he's

00:39:53.840 giving a test because he truly believes practice execution becomes game reality and so we're

00:40:00.480 working constantly on the elements of the game wednesday is red zone it's it's first down it's

00:40:06.400 drive starters it's all the areas of the game thursday it's nickel it's sub runs base runs and

00:40:13.580 friday it's gotta have it but we gotta have a play what do we do and if they gotta have a play what do

00:40:19.060 they do and so it all comes together and on saturday he sits with the coaching staff and he

00:40:24.860 tells them look fellas here's how the game's gonna go here's how we prepare it could go this way we

00:40:30.780 need to adjust that way it could go that way then we'll adjust this way and after the first quarter if

00:40:36.160 we're not sure where it is we'll make adjustments and that's just and so everybody's constantly thinking

00:40:41.800 about how we have to play the game what their job is in the game and what they have to do to be

00:40:47.300 successful i mean what i was impressed by was how much preparation belichick put in himself

00:40:52.480 to prepare his team right like the the game prep for him began the as soon as he finished the game

00:40:58.840 like the game the previous game he would start going over film to get the team ready for the next game

00:41:04.100 yeah i mean nobody works harder uh i mean he he writes up all the defensive backs that so he can have

00:41:10.720 a relationship with the quarterback so he can call tom brady in his office on tuesday afternoon and say

00:41:15.680 tom here are all the defensive backs for the baltimore ravens here's their strengths here

00:41:21.620 their weaknesses here's the summary here's how we're going to attack them and he keeps himself

00:41:27.000 involved in the game here's the special teams he's the head coach he's the best coach on the staff

00:41:32.480 he makes the most money and guess what he does he coaches the most because he's that valuable and i

00:41:38.520 think you can really see his work ethic i mean he wastes no time if he's on the treadmill he's reading

00:41:43.960 you know he's constantly focused and he concentrates on what's the most important things that have to

00:41:51.060 happen on each and every day to get the team ready he knows it's his job to get the entire team ready

00:41:56.880 and it's the assistant job to manage the team remember this it's so important leaders do the

00:42:03.300 right thing managers do things right belichick's the leader got that and did walsh have a similar

00:42:09.340 approach to belichick no doubt always yeah always very well involved in everything that we did and

00:42:16.300 wanted to make sure that they understood it and what bill did because of his intellectual he created

00:42:21.220 a think tank you know he was so smart and creative it forced george seaford to become creative in his

00:42:27.700 thought and do different things and come up with his own way because look we're all competitive with

00:42:32.440 one another and as you mentioned earlier that i mean what another thing that impressed me about

00:42:36.420 these guys belichick and walsh is that they don't yell at their players they're in fact very

00:42:41.300 quiet and somehow they're able to convey that message to them during these meetings in a way

00:42:46.160 that's very impactful yeah they teach they don't yell i mean they don't tell players to play harder

00:42:51.260 they explain what they need everything's in detail they treat you as a professional this isn't good

00:42:56.660 enough they have no problem telling you if it's not good enough they're not scared to confront you

00:43:01.520 most leaders are too worried about what somebody else is going to think about it so they sugarcoat it

00:43:07.180 they lie well that's not bad we're okay there that's good no they people want clear and concise

00:43:13.500 instruction and if you give it to them in an honest manner they'll listen but if you try to just sugarcoat it

00:43:20.060 or hide behind it no one's going to pay attention to you so they've never raised their voice they rarely

00:43:26.080 get angry i mean i've seen them get upset but they instruct and teach they don't yell when you're

00:43:32.660 working with belichick you know he's become one of the most dominant coaches in the game of football

00:43:37.200 in that sort of situation it's easy to become complacent how do you how does he battle that how

00:43:43.000 does he prevent getting complacent i you know that's a great question i mean he's he's always about the

00:43:49.280 next thing vince lombardi has a great line the greatest reward for doing is the opportunity to do more

00:43:54.540 and i think belichick does wants to do more all the time he's chasing something bigger than super

00:44:00.180 bowls he's chasing perfection and so therefore he's really not worried about the scoreboard

00:44:05.560 he's worried about just doing his he loves the process of his job that he loves and so he does

00:44:11.580 it really well and that's go back goes back to bill walsh's idea of you know let you know let the

00:44:15.700 scoreboard take care of itself don't pay attention to the scoreboard just focus on the process that's

00:44:20.340 right and most most organizations focus on the bottom line focus on the result they don't focus

00:44:26.140 just on doing the process i mean but that's that's a that can be a hard sell to an organization right

00:44:31.740 where a coach says look i don't care about the score i don't care about the wins i want to make

00:44:36.760 sure that this process this culture gets in place and then the score will take care of itself like how do

00:44:42.480 you make that sell as a leader to an organization it's hard miami's experiencing it now but i think

00:44:50.120 what you have to have is an owner who is is fearful winston churchill once said when the germans were in

00:44:57.900 the channel court and he became the prime minister they asked them they said how come they made you

00:45:03.680 prime minister now when all through the 30s no one would listen to you he said because fear does the

00:45:09.180 work of reason and i think that the only way you can get people to buy in that is if they're fearful

00:45:16.640 they'll never get it right it's hard to reason with somebody who thinks they have it the redskins 1.00

00:45:22.300 you can't reason with the redskins they think they're going to turn it around if they get duane 1.00

00:45:25.980 haskins to play better or some coach or whatever they don't understand they're not fearful when you

00:45:31.000 get somebody fearful eddie de bartolo was fearful he had just had joe thomas joe thomas traded a bunch

00:45:37.140 of picks he was at the he was at wits end he was the youngest owner in the nfl he was fearful of

00:45:43.000 losing something that he so deeply loved and he gave walsh the chance to do it so we've been talking

00:45:48.120 about bill belichick and this culture that he developed at the patriots that has helped them

00:45:51.880 become a dynasty now i'm sure there's some people who are listening to this and they're thinking about

00:45:56.220 all the accusations of cheating that have been thrown at the patriots over the years the sign

00:46:01.680 stealing and then recently deflategate uh what's your take on that well i think you know in the

00:46:07.440 first instance you know the signal stealing i think signal stealing was a common practice in the nfl

00:46:13.060 if i told you some of the people that were notorious signal stealers in the nfl that are in the hall of

00:46:19.320 fame we would all laugh about it today that doesn't excuse it it's just part of the nature of the

00:46:24.180 business that people were good at stealing signals it was a competitive thing however that transpired i

00:46:30.820 wasn't in new england at the time so i don't know exactly what was happening what was being filmed

00:46:35.860 but obviously they were stretching the envelope they've got fined for it the deflategate thing

00:46:40.620 brett was really ridiculous when we first heard that i was in the building it was the most ridiculous 0.96

00:46:45.100 story i've ever heard and it's still the most ridiculous story i've ever heard quarterbacks 0.94

00:46:49.080 relationship with the football is the most important thing and how they like the football is critical and

00:46:54.500 we talked about protecting the quarterback well there was nothing in that game that that they did to

00:46:59.680 the football and after it was proven over time that had anything to do with cheating so it's a story

00:47:04.900 that manifested itself out of what i don't know they even admitted the initial report was wrong

00:47:10.020 they said 12 footballs were illegally deflated when they found out that wasn't to be true so

00:47:16.180 i would say this about bill i think bill probably will do within the boundaries of the rules to make

00:47:22.780 sure that he exerts all of the options that he has at his disposal to handle that and you know i think

00:47:29.560 most all organizations do that i don't think it's unethical in what they did i think it was basically

00:47:36.000 a stretch of the rules and i think that ultimately that's how it is but it does not dismiss any of the

00:47:42.760 success they've had up there because truly they just beat you with their their teaching their

00:47:47.820 operation not with cheating so you've been at the game for a while let's end on this what do you what

00:47:52.860 do you see the future of football looking like i mean we're kind of this weird crossroads with the

00:47:57.480 game where people are talking about declining uh interest from young players even fans i mean is

00:48:02.960 football going to be around in 25 years oh i think it's it's going to even be it's going to grow

00:48:07.540 even further betting now has just taken over the sport at the interactiveness now of football

00:48:13.040 where we're and we're going to see kids play madden you know you're going to see kids at their

00:48:18.320 seats at the stadium with the ability to call plays with the ability to play madden as if the game was

00:48:24.120 going on so you're going to have this esport in element at games i think football is with betting and

00:48:31.160 with all the electronics that we have it's going to be it's going to be bigger and bigger as we go on

00:48:36.980 and i think it's it's going to always come back to talented leaders that understand the essence of

00:48:43.020 what it takes to win but i i think we're in we're in a we're in an age where it's only going to get

00:48:47.780 more popular what about the uh the safety issue concern that a lot of people have do you think

00:48:52.200 there's going to be strides in correcting that i hope so i hope so i i think we can i think we've

00:48:57.820 tried to i think that you know there's a time where you know we weren't as concerned but i think now

00:49:03.700 we're getting better and i think the longer we talk about team and having depth and not one player

00:49:10.120 being more important than anybody then you know that helps the injury factor because if the patriots

00:49:15.840 don't have player y and he can't play they go to player b and so you have to have that mindset and

00:49:21.640 i think when you force players to play if they're not healthy that hurts the game and i think the

00:49:26.200 more you can convince your depth and develop talent those are the teams that are going to come

00:49:30.500 out ahead on this injury front and one interesting interesting forecast or prediction you have is

00:49:35.640 that you're you see football kind of going back to its rugby roots uh what do you mean by that i think

00:49:41.220 we'll see more we're seeing it now the single wings coming back i mean lamar jackson's running the

00:49:45.840 single wing if baltimore had another quarterback on the field like lamar jackson how dangerous would

00:49:51.180 they be you know i think we're going to see you know walsh used to sit on the team bus and doodle

00:49:56.660 plays from the clark shaughnessy era football the single wing the the the tight wing and he was always

00:50:03.480 constantly looking back at history belichick does the same thing what old becomes new and i think

00:50:09.420 we're seeing a little bit more of that that direct snap to somebody who can then run unbalanced lines

00:50:14.740 tight formations i think football will metamorphose back to where we once were and it'll expand in the

00:50:21.120 way we're doing it and be very entertaining well michael this has been a great conversation where

00:50:24.820 can people go to learn more about the book and the work you do well you can follow me on twitter

00:50:28.960 m lombardi nfl uh at twitter i'm there i write for the athletic i i do a podcast called the gm shuffle

00:50:37.560 every every monday and thursday talking about the nfl i write every day and i'd urge people to to sign

00:50:44.800 up for the email it's called the daily coach it's really a little bit about the idea came coach

00:50:49.720 raveling and i were the greatest human beings in the world george raveling was a basketball coach at

00:50:55.880 iowa washington state and usc he actually owns the the i have a dream speech and we decided that

00:51:02.580 you know we feel like you everybody needs a coach if steve jobs had bill campbell to coach him

00:51:08.640 then everybody should have one so we started this website called the daily coach it's in your email

00:51:13.100 box every day uh five days a week and we hope we can inspire people to to understand that they need

00:51:18.760 to be as much they need to be coached just as much as players do michael lombardi thanks for your time

00:51:23.880 it's been a pleasure thank you brett my guest today was michael lombardi he is the author of

00:51:27.920 the book gridiron genius it's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere you can check out our

00:51:32.260 show notes to find out more information about his work and also with links to other resources by going

00:51:36.700 to aom.is slash gridiron well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast check out our

00:51:49.440 website at artofmanliness.com where you can find our podcast archives as well as thousands of articles

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00:52:26.480 support until next time this is brett mckay reminding you not only to listen to the aom podcast

00:52:30.520 but put what you've heard into action

The Art of Manliness - October 07, 2019

#549： Leadership Lessons from the Gridiron's Greatest Coaches

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