The Art of Manliness - #553： How to Become Indistractable

00:00:00.000 I'm Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.160 If you struggle with feeling distracted, you likely think that modern technology is to

00:00:14.940 blame and that if your phone wasn't so infuriatingly desirable to check, you'd be a lot more focused

00:00:19.480 and productive.

00:00:20.240 My guest say argues that the problem of distraction doesn't lie with technology, but with you.

00:00:23.920 His name is Nir Eyal, and he's a behavioral design expert and the author of Indistractable,

00:00:27.900 How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life.

00:00:30.360 Today on the show, we first discuss Nir's work in helping companies create apps that hook

00:00:33.820 people into using them and why he thinks those methods of attraction can be positive as long

00:00:37.760 as you put tech in its place.

00:00:39.100 We then dig into how to do that, beginning with the idea that you can't complain about

00:00:42.360 being distracted if you don't know what you're distracted from, how the first step in getting

00:00:46.460 control of your attention is understanding what you'd like to be doing with it by planning

00:00:49.540 out your time, and why the opposite of distraction is in focus.

00:00:52.440 We discuss why time management is pain management, why we need to get comfortable with the uncomfortable

00:00:56.580 internal triggers that prompt us to use our devices for emotional pacification.

00:01:00.460 Nir then walks us through how to deal with the external triggers of distraction, including

00:01:03.820 managing your email inbox, making pre-commitments, and turning indistractability into part of

00:01:08.580 your identity.

00:01:09.380 After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash indistractable.

00:01:13.580 Nir joins me now via clearcast.io.

00:01:15.920 All right, Nir Eyal, welcome to the show.

00:01:27.220 Thanks so much, Brett.

00:01:27.900 Great to be here.

00:01:28.740 So you got a book out called Indistractable, How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your

00:01:32.940 Life.

00:01:33.800 I know people's feeling like they're not in control of their attention is a big problem

00:01:37.540 that a lot of people have.

00:01:39.000 But before we get to this book, let's talk about the book you published before this,

00:01:41.600 because they're connected in a way.

00:01:43.160 That first book you published was Hooked, How to Build Habit-Forming Products, and this

00:01:47.600 was done a few years ago.

00:01:48.900 I remember reading it.

00:01:49.740 It was really good as well.

00:01:51.320 And it's about how companies, or it was used by companies to create apps and websites that

00:01:55.960 hook people into using them.

00:01:57.980 What was the big idea that you were trying to highlight in that book?

00:02:02.720 So with Hooked, it was really, you know, this was published five years ago.

00:02:05.320 And so the idea was really about how do we democratize these techniques that have been

00:02:08.500 used by the gaming companies, by the social networks to make all sorts of products

00:02:13.000 more habit-forming and engaging.

00:02:15.120 The reason I wrote the book, you know, I didn't, the book didn't benefit the social

00:02:18.780 networks and the video game companies.

00:02:20.040 They've known these techniques for years and years.

00:02:21.980 What I wanted to do once I learned these techniques was to share them, because my idea

00:02:26.420 was what if we could make healthy habits just as engaging, just as sticky as the products

00:02:32.700 that many people blame for distracting them many times, right?

00:02:36.520 So my clients have never been the social media companies and the gaming companies.

00:02:39.780 My clients are companies like the New York Times hired me to help make a habit out of reading

00:02:44.900 the news.

00:02:45.740 Companies like Fitbod used the hook model to get people hooked to exercising in the gym.

00:02:51.440 Kahoot used the hook model to build the world's largest educational software, which gets kids

00:02:56.920 hooked onto in-classroom learning.

00:02:59.500 And so that's really the impetus of the book was for the benefit of anyone building a product

00:03:04.300 that they want to turn into some sort of a habit.

00:03:07.260 And what are the insights about human psychology and habit formation that you highlighted in

00:03:13.860 that book?

00:03:14.100 I'm sure there's lots of them, but, you know, what are some of the few that stood out to

00:03:16.700 you?

00:03:17.240 Yeah.

00:03:17.460 So at the core of any of these experiences, whether it's Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp,

00:03:23.620 Slack, Fitbod, even the Bible app, you know, the one case study that I highlight in the

00:03:28.000 book is the Bible app, which has hundreds of millions of users.

00:03:31.760 And all of them essentially use this four-part model called a trigger, an action, a reward,

00:03:38.480 and an investment.

00:03:39.240 This is the hooked model.

00:03:40.560 And it's through successive cycles through these hooks that customer preferences are shaped,

00:03:44.940 that our tastes are formed, and that our habits take hold.

00:03:47.780 So we have triggers.

00:03:49.200 These triggers are things in our environment, typically, the pings and dings and rings that

00:03:53.160 prompt us to take some kind of action.

00:03:55.560 Then the next step is the action phase.

00:03:57.620 It could be something as simple as scrolling a feed, opening an app, checking a dashboard,

00:04:02.440 playing a video.

00:04:03.480 It's defined as the simplest action done in anticipation of a reward.

00:04:07.440 Then comes the reward itself.

00:04:09.460 And the reward, the point of the reward phase is to scratch the user's itch they came for

00:04:14.040 and yet leave them wanting more.

00:04:15.900 Some bit of uncertainty around what they might find the next time they engage with the product.

00:04:21.120 And this, you know, the engine of the hooked model is variability.

00:04:25.420 That's what's called an intermittent reinforcement.

00:04:27.060 And this comes from the work of B.F. Skinner.

00:04:29.240 He found that when he took pigeons and put them in a little box, now known as a Skinner

00:04:33.940 box, and he gave them a little disc to peck at, if they pecked at the disc and received

00:04:38.640 a reward on a fixed schedule, meaning peck at the disc, get a reward every time, he could

00:04:43.720 train those pigeons to peck at the disc whenever they were hungry, right?

00:04:46.780 As long as the pigeon was hungry, they would peck the disc.

00:04:49.300 You know, that's how they learned this new habit.

00:04:52.240 This is called operant conditioning.

00:04:53.480 But what Skinner discovered to his amazement was that when he ran out of these food pellets

00:04:59.420 one day and he couldn't afford to give them to the pigeons every time.

00:05:04.080 So sometimes a pigeon would peck at the disc and nothing would come out.

00:05:07.200 The next time the pigeon would peck at the disc, they would receive a reward.

00:05:10.560 What Skinner observed was the rate of response, the number of times these pigeons pecked at the

00:05:15.360 disc increased when the reward was given on a variable schedule of reinforcement.

00:05:20.360 And so what we see in all sorts of products and services that we find most engaging, most

00:05:25.460 engrossing, most fun, you will find this element of variability, whether it's playing a video

00:05:30.160 game, whether it's watching the news, all right?

00:05:32.340 The first three letters of news is new.

00:05:34.260 We always want to know what we don't know, what happened that we are not aware of.

00:05:37.760 What's the surprise?

00:05:38.820 It's what makes books fun to read.

00:05:40.640 It's what makes a movie entertaining.

00:05:42.400 It's all about surprise.

00:05:43.640 It's what makes people listen to this episode right this minute.

00:05:46.520 It's about not knowing what we're going to talk about next.

00:05:50.120 And so that curiosity gap, that variability, that uncertainty is what keeps us scrolling

00:05:54.840 on Facebook.

00:05:55.700 It's what keeps us hooked to email.

00:05:57.360 It's what keeps us striving to do more.

00:06:00.340 This uncertainty is really at the core of many species drive to act.

00:06:06.980 And then the last step of the hook model is called the investment phase.

00:06:10.780 And this is where you put something into the product to improve it with use.

00:06:15.020 And this is a really big deal.

00:06:16.800 If we think about the history of innovation, you know, traditionally, it's been very difficult

00:06:21.060 and taken a very long time for a product to change its specifications for the user's

00:06:27.820 needs.

00:06:28.560 So, you know, Henry Ford is famous for, or at least attributed with saying that you can

00:06:33.080 have any color of Model T as long as it's black.

00:06:35.980 And the reason he said that was because it's really hard to retool a factory and give you

00:06:40.020 a car in every color you desire.

00:06:41.500 Well, today what's changed is that we are co-creating products in real time.

00:06:47.940 So my version of Facebook, my version of Instagram, my version of Slack, email, whatever is customized

00:06:53.060 to me based on the effort I put into it.

00:06:56.960 And so that's, that's very different.

00:06:58.280 So we are co-creating these products in real time by storing value in the product.

00:07:02.740 And the more we use it, it actually appreciates in value.

00:07:06.420 And that's never happened before.

00:07:07.480 Because if you think about it, everything made out of atoms, as opposed to bits, depreciates

00:07:13.080 with wear and tear, right?

00:07:14.700 The more you use something up, the less valuable it becomes your furniture, your clothing, you

00:07:20.220 know, anything that we consume depreciates with wear and tear, but habit forming products

00:07:24.960 do the opposite.

00:07:25.920 They actually get better and better.

00:07:27.520 They appreciate in value the more you interact with them.

00:07:30.340 And that's very special.

00:07:32.040 So that's the fourth step of the hook, the investment phase, which also loads the next

00:07:36.580 trigger.

00:07:37.260 So when you send someone a message on WhatsApp or Slack or Instagram, when you send someone

00:07:42.200 that message, you are investing in the service, thereby loading the next trigger, prompting

00:07:47.740 you through the hook once again, because you're likely to get a reply.

00:07:51.100 So that reply from your message is an external trigger, which brings you through the hook once

00:07:56.380 again.

00:07:56.700 And now, eventually, the promised land of a habit forming product is to no longer require

00:08:02.640 an external trigger at all.

00:08:04.120 What they do eventually is attach themselves to what's called an internal trigger.

00:08:09.000 And we'll talk about internal triggers more when we talk about how to become indistractable,

00:08:12.860 but it's very, very important.

00:08:14.440 So every habit forming product, the ultimate goal is to no longer require a ping, a ding,

00:08:18.700 a notification, some spammy advertising.

00:08:20.660 What they bank on, the promised land, is to attach the product's use to some kind of

00:08:26.780 uncomfortable emotion.

00:08:28.760 So when we are lonely, we check Facebook.

00:08:32.640 When we are uncertain, we Google it.

00:08:34.920 When we are bored, we check Reddit or stock prices, sports scores.

00:08:39.140 All of these things cater to an uncomfortable internal trigger, an uncomfortable sensation.

00:08:43.720 And that really is the promised land.

00:08:45.800 When a company can attach the use of the product to a problem in your head that you feel and

00:08:54.100 impulsively use that product out of habit.

00:08:56.560 And that can be used for good, of course.

00:08:58.400 You know, we can help people form healthy habits around eating and exercise and connecting

00:09:02.560 with people, et cetera.

00:09:03.700 It can also form some pretty bad habits if you're not dealing with that feeling in a healthy

00:09:07.760 manner and instead looking for emotional pacification with a distraction.

00:09:11.780 All right, so you wrote the book on sort of laying out what makes a product or an app or

00:09:17.740 a service habit-forming, yet you had this realization that you were losing control of

00:09:23.700 your attention to your smartphone.

00:09:25.340 So how does the guy who wrote the book, who understood what the companies were doing to

00:09:29.000 capture our attention, how did you realize you had lost control of your attention?

00:09:34.060 Yeah, so for me, the seminal moment for me was really when I sat down with my daughter

00:09:39.280 after I wrote Hooked.

00:09:40.860 So before I wrote Hooked, nobody was calling me, nobody was emailing, nobody was writing

00:09:45.500 stories about me, and I wasn't busy.

00:09:48.580 And so I had plenty of time to write my book in peace.

00:09:51.080 But then when I wrote Hooked, and I actually self-published it at first and just thought,

00:09:55.120 okay, well, whoever might want to read it.

00:09:56.380 I had like a few thousand blog subscribers, and I thought maybe they'd like it.

00:09:59.940 But then the book started doing really well.

00:10:01.680 And I started getting more phone calls and requests for consultations and requests for

00:10:06.600 speaking engagements.

00:10:07.760 And I got busier and busier.

00:10:09.740 And to one point, I realized that this was a detriment in some ways.

00:10:14.400 It was a high-class problem.

00:10:16.180 I'm very thankful, but it was also a problem nonetheless.

00:10:19.140 And I remember sitting with my daughter one afternoon, and we had some time together where

00:10:24.520 we could just spend some quality time as daddy and daughter together.

00:10:28.060 And we had this book of activities that had all kinds of things that daddies and daughters

00:10:32.880 could do together.

00:10:33.660 And one of the activities was to ask each other this question.

00:10:37.060 If you could have any superpower, what superpower would you want?

00:10:41.340 And I remember the question verbatim, but I can't tell you her answer.

00:10:45.720 Because in that moment, when she answered, I was distracted.

00:10:50.500 I was looking at my phone because I'd gotten some email or some message.

00:10:54.480 I don't know what happened.

00:10:55.580 Something happened when I was using, that made me check the device, probably some ping

00:11:00.340 or ding on my phone.

00:11:01.900 And the next thing I knew, when I looked up from my phone, she'd left the room because

00:11:05.840 she'd gotten the message that whatever was on my phone was more important than she was.

00:11:10.120 And so that was kind of the turning point for me.

00:11:11.660 I remember actually, I told this story to a friend of mine.

00:11:14.940 And so he was curious, and he asked his daughter what superpower she would want.

00:11:19.680 And she told him that, you know, daddy, the superpower I would want would be the power

00:11:24.480 to talk to animals.

00:11:26.480 And he asked, why?

00:11:27.640 Why would you want to talk to animals?

00:11:28.940 And his daughter said, so that when you and mommy are on your phones, I'll have someone

00:11:32.300 to talk to.

00:11:33.600 Ouch.

00:11:36.380 So this is not a problem that only I experience.

00:11:40.240 I think many, many parents can relate to it.

00:11:42.200 And if I'm honest with you, that wasn't the only time it happened.

00:11:44.720 I would get distracted when I was with my daughter.

00:11:46.900 I would get distracted when I was at work.

00:11:48.700 I would sit down to write, you know, the thing that made me successful as an author

00:11:52.780 is to write.

00:11:53.780 And yet I would find that I would, you know, putz around.

00:11:56.280 I'd check email.

00:11:56.920 I'd check Slack channels.

00:11:57.740 I'd check the news.

00:11:58.400 I'd Google something.

00:11:59.080 And I just couldn't get to work.

00:12:00.660 And that was very frustrating.

00:12:02.200 And so I decided to dive headfirst into the problem.

00:12:05.160 Knowing what I know as someone in the industry, as an industry insider, I wanted to figure out,

00:12:09.740 you know, how can we put this stuff in its place?

00:12:11.660 And my knee-jerk reaction was to blame the technology.

00:12:14.200 And the reason I blamed the technology is because that's what everybody tells you is

00:12:18.980 the problem, right?

00:12:20.380 Every book I could buy on the topic, and I have dozens of them here, they all basically

00:12:24.460 said the same thing.

00:12:25.140 Technology is hijacking your brain.

00:12:26.960 Technology is addicting you.

00:12:28.200 Technology is this.

00:12:28.980 Technology is that.

00:12:29.680 So I followed their advice.

00:12:30.920 I did the 30-day detox, you know, the 30-day plan.

00:12:34.140 I got rid of my smartphone, and I bought myself this $12 feature phone on Alibaba that does

00:12:38.960 nothing but send text messages and receive phone calls.

00:12:41.400 I got myself a word processor from the 1990s that don't even make anymore with no internet

00:12:46.060 connection.

00:12:47.120 And I sat down, and I said, great, I got rid of all the technology.

00:12:50.680 Now I'm going to be focused.

00:12:52.260 Now I'm going to make sure I'm not distracted.

00:12:54.520 And I still got distracted, right?

00:12:56.400 Because I'd say, oh, let me tidy up my desk real quick, or let me take out the trash,

00:12:59.980 or, oh, you know, there's that book I've been meaning to do some research into.

00:13:02.740 I bet there's something interesting there that I should probably read, and I would keep

00:13:05.300 procrastinating.

00:13:06.720 And so the more I dove into the psychology of procrastination, I realized that we have it all wrong.

00:13:11.400 The technology is not the cause of distraction.

00:13:14.800 It's the symptom.

00:13:16.960 The root cause is much more interesting and much more important to identify if we are

00:13:21.980 really going to tackle distraction.

00:13:24.280 Well, let's talk about that root cause, because I've had that same issue before.

00:13:26.780 I've done things where I've implemented firewalls on my devices where I can't access certain

00:13:31.240 sites.

00:13:32.020 And one thing I find myself doing is, okay, there was one site that was super distracting,

00:13:35.680 I block it.

00:13:36.720 Well, I just find another site to distract myself with.

00:13:39.760 So what is, if it's not the device or the technology, what is the root cause?

00:13:45.060 Yeah, you may not like this, but the root cause, in order to understand the root cause

00:13:51.580 of the problem, let me just back up to some first principles here.

00:13:54.500 So let's start with, what do we mean by distraction?

00:13:56.780 What does that word even mean?

00:13:58.360 If you ask people to define the opposite of distraction, they'll tell you it's focus.

00:14:04.040 And I don't agree.

00:14:04.900 I don't think the opposite of distraction is focus.

00:14:06.540 That in fact, if you look at the entomology of the word, the opposite of distraction is

00:14:10.500 not focus.

00:14:11.480 It is traction.

00:14:12.900 That both traction and distraction come from the same Latin root, trahare, which means to

00:14:17.700 pull. 0.98

00:14:18.440 And they both end in the same six letter word, A-C-T-I-O-N. 0.98

00:14:22.220 That spells action.

00:14:23.660 So traction is any action that pulls you towards what you want to do, things that you do with

00:14:29.600 intent.

00:14:30.080 The opposite of traction is distraction, anything that pulls you away from what you plan to

00:14:36.160 do with intent.

00:14:37.180 So all of our behaviors are either leading us towards traction or distraction based on

00:14:41.580 what we plan to do with our time.

00:14:44.520 Now, in order to understand what pulls us towards either traction or distraction, which

00:14:48.920 is, by the way, a very, very old problem.

00:14:51.160 Plato talked about this 2,500 years ago.

00:14:53.060 He called it a krasia, the tendency that we all have to do things against our better interests.

00:14:57.300 So 2,500 years ago, well before iPhones, well before Facebook and Instagram, people were

00:15:01.840 complaining about, gosh, isn't the world such a distracting place these days?

00:15:05.500 Every generation has their tech boogeyman, whether it's the television, the video game,

00:15:09.940 the radio.

00:15:10.480 I mean, even the written word was derided by Socrates as something that was going to enfeeble

00:15:14.560 men's minds.

00:15:15.540 So this is nothing new.

00:15:16.900 But we have to ask ourselves really to get down to first principles, not only why do we

00:15:21.040 do things against our better interest, but why do we do anything and everything?

00:15:24.920 And if you ask most folks, what is the nature of human motivation?

00:15:28.460 Why do we do everything?

00:15:30.940 They will tell you some version of carrots and sticks, typically.

00:15:34.920 This comes from Freud's pleasure principle.

00:15:37.760 Bentham said something similar that everything that we do is about the pursuit of pleasure

00:15:41.440 and the avoidance of pain, right?

00:15:43.140 Carrots and sticks.

00:15:44.520 Turns out that neurologically, however, this ain't true.

00:15:48.840 That's not how it works.

00:15:50.440 That in fact, everything we do is not about the pursuit of pleasure and the avoidance of pain.

00:15:54.580 But rather, it's pain all the way down.

00:15:58.760 That everything we do, everything we do is about a desire to escape discomfort.

00:16:04.100 This is called the homeostatic response.

00:16:06.240 And we know this is true physiologically, right?

00:16:08.560 If you feel cold, you put on a jacket.

00:16:11.320 If you're hot, that doesn't feel good.

00:16:13.180 You take it off.

00:16:14.100 If you're hungry, you feel hunger pain.

00:16:16.040 So you eat.

00:16:16.980 And if you eat too much, okay, now you're stuffed.

00:16:18.940 You stop eating.

00:16:20.140 So those are physiological responses.

00:16:21.800 The brain gets us to do stuff by making us feel discomfort that we have to act.

00:16:26.400 We have to manipulate our environment to stop that discomfort.

00:16:29.640 And the same is true with psychological sensations, as we talked about earlier, right?

00:16:33.460 That when you're lonely, Facebook, uncertainty, Google, boredom, Reddit, stock prices, sports

00:16:38.720 scores, all this stuff.

00:16:39.560 Even, in fact, the desire to feel good, right?

00:16:44.100 The brain doesn't get us to act because we feel good.

00:16:46.720 The brain gets us to act because we felt good.

00:16:50.540 The memory of feeling good creates psychological imbalance for us to want to do something, right?

00:16:57.880 There's a reason we say that love hurts, because psychologically, that is exactly what is going

00:17:02.120 on in the brain.

00:17:02.680 Desire, craving, wanting, all of those things do not feel good.

00:17:08.600 That is what prompts us to quell that uncomfortable sensation.

00:17:13.060 So back to distraction, what does all this mean?

00:17:15.980 If all of our behaviors are spurred by a desire to escape discomfort in one form or another,

00:17:22.000 what that means is that time management is pain management.

00:17:27.220 So I don't care what life hacks you just read about or what guru tells you to take a cold

00:17:32.600 shower at 4 a.m., none of that stuff works unless, first and foremost, we learn how to deal

00:17:40.360 with discomfort.

00:17:41.940 That is the most important first step.

00:17:44.600 And what we do with that discomfort leads us to either traction or distraction.

00:17:49.740 If we channel it for good, it can actually be a force that spurs us to do what we say we're

00:17:54.500 going to do.

00:17:55.440 But if we're not trained, if we don't know how to master our internal triggers, that's

00:17:59.820 where we turn to these technologies, which we love to blame as the source of the problem,

00:18:03.760 which they aren't.

00:18:04.580 They're just the tools that we use for emotional pacification, like babies sucking on their

00:18:09.600 thumbs.

00:18:10.360 And until we learn that principle and accept it and deal with it, we will always become

00:18:14.780 distracted by something.

00:18:16.720 Okay, there's a lot to unpack there.

00:18:18.100 So this idea of distraction, a lot of things you were talking about were internal triggers.

00:18:23.440 And you mentioned before, apps and websites use external triggers, but ideally, they want

00:18:28.640 to get to the internal trigger, right?

00:18:30.420 So are companies thinking about that?

00:18:32.720 We want to be the go-to source for people when they feel bored or when they feel sad or

00:18:38.620 when they feel lonely.

00:18:39.480 Do they sit in a room and think about that and say, that's what we want to do?

00:18:43.060 Some of them do.

00:18:43.940 Yeah, absolutely.

00:18:44.820 For example, when I was working with...

00:18:46.860 Well, let me give you...

00:18:47.640 I work with many, many companies.

00:18:49.160 But for example, when I worked with the New York Times, it was very much that, right?

00:18:53.100 When in a user's day would they sit down and want to scratch a psychological itch of boredom,

00:19:00.500 fear of missing out, uncertainty around what's going on in the world?

00:19:04.080 And so they build their product to cater to that uncomfortable emotion.

00:19:09.420 When I didn't work with Fitbod, but Fitbod is this great app that used the hook model

00:19:13.460 only after I'd written the book.

00:19:15.220 I'd never consulted with them.

00:19:16.260 They read the book and used it.

00:19:17.580 And their internal trigger was trying to cater to the person who goes to the gym like I used

00:19:23.040 to be and would face uncertainty around what to do, right?

00:19:26.780 There's all these muscle heads that seem to know what they're doing.

00:19:28.780 And here I am.

00:19:29.660 I don't know what to do.

00:19:31.200 That doesn't feel good.

00:19:32.560 That uncertainty feels bad.

00:19:35.000 And so the solution to that discomfort is an app like Fitbod.

00:19:37.920 Well, let's talk about this idea that everything is pain.

00:19:40.840 What would you say to someone who says, well, I do something because I genuinely like it.

00:19:44.440 What would you say?

00:19:45.620 How would you say, well, no, actually you're doing that to avoid pain?

00:19:48.680 Give me an example.

00:19:49.680 Let's say someone who consistently works out, right?

00:19:52.660 They exercise every day.

00:19:53.840 It's not because they're gritting their teeth to exercise every day.

00:19:57.280 They just do it because it's just part of what they do and they enjoy it.

00:20:01.120 Yeah, exactly.

00:20:02.080 Well, even the desire to feel good.

00:20:04.420 I'm not saying that pleasure doesn't exist.

00:20:06.620 Of course pleasure exists.

00:20:07.540 Let's take it to its really base fundamental state.

00:20:10.320 Think about orgasm, right?

00:20:11.880 Orgasms feel good and we are programmed biologically to have the orgasm.

00:20:16.260 But that sensation, that pleasure is what we remember about the experience.

00:20:23.700 But getting to the experience, we get there because we crave, we desire, we lust.

00:20:30.380 And that is uncomfortable.

00:20:33.060 Gotcha.

00:20:33.160 And I imagine some people, they work out because they don't like the feeling of not working out.

00:20:39.260 Absolutely.

00:20:40.160 Absolutely.

00:20:40.720 Yeah, that's right.

00:20:41.340 So I talked to a former NFL player a few weeks ago and he said, no, that's not true.

00:20:46.900 I don't believe that everything we do is about the desire to escape discomfort because I love the rush of going out on the field and the crowds and the cheering.

00:20:53.900 And I worked my ass off and it hurt, but I did it anyway.

00:20:57.180 And then about after 15 minutes of explaining to him this concept, he said, you know what?

00:21:00.680 Actually, you're right.

00:21:01.880 Because not going out there and not giving it my best and not performing and the idea of letting down my fans was so painful that I had to do this.

00:21:11.100 So it's a bit of both, right?

00:21:13.380 So the wanting and the desire creates pain because in order to fulfill that pain, you do the thing.

00:21:20.700 So in fact, the brain has two separate systems.

00:21:23.760 It's called the liking system and the wanting system.

00:21:26.700 And whether we like something or not doesn't actually matter.

00:21:29.720 They've done these experiments on rodents where they trigger their wanting system to want a particular thing.

00:21:38.440 And even though they may not like that thing, they still do it because they want it, because they crave it.

00:21:45.020 So the liking system is what lights up, so to speak, in the brain.

00:21:48.280 I hate that term, but you get what I'm trying to say.

00:21:50.060 It was activated when something is pleasurable.

00:21:53.140 But the pleasure itself is not necessary to get us to do a behavior.

00:21:56.840 What is necessary is the wanting system, which spurs us to act because of discomfort.

00:22:04.600 So you said that distraction has been with us forever.

00:22:07.380 And I think a lot of people who are listening, they lived in a time when there were no smartphones or whatever.

00:22:12.520 And they got distracted.

00:22:13.600 I remember when I was a kid, I found ways to distract myself.

00:22:16.420 I didn't want to do homework.

00:22:17.640 But something seems different about the tech we have here.

00:22:20.540 What do you think is different about the tech that we have today?

00:22:24.140 Well, it certainly is different.

00:22:25.460 There's no doubt about it.

00:22:26.240 I mean, just the fact that technology is so pervasive and is designed to be so persuasive is different.

00:22:33.200 I mean, the fact that we have it with us at all times of the day in our pockets means that if you are looking for distraction, it's easier than ever to find.

00:22:41.060 But I think what has gone off the rails a bit lately is this idea that just because something is designed to be engaging,

00:22:47.000 just because it is designed to be fun, that somehow it's addicting us all.

00:22:52.820 It's hijacking our brains.

00:22:54.240 I mean, give me a break. 1.00

00:22:55.060 That's ridiculous. 0.92

00:22:56.360 And, of course, that narrative is one that gets a lot of attention. 0.96

00:22:58.840 And it always has.

00:22:59.620 I recently published an article in The Atlantic that was titled, Tech Addiction is the New Reefer Madness.

00:23:06.800 That people have been fearing something that is apparently taking over our brains since time immemorial.

00:23:15.680 The idea of being possessed, zombified.

00:23:17.900 There's this practice of tappening where we have these ancient skulls of people who lived thousands of years ago who their brain was fractured in order to let out an evil spirit.

00:23:30.060 So there's something about us that looks to blame something taking over the mind.

00:23:36.280 We're very scared of that.

00:23:37.980 And I think the latest boogeyman that we like to blame is technology.

00:23:41.540 Because while something is designed to be engaging, there's no doubt that Netflix designs its shows to be engaging.

00:23:49.520 And, frankly, would we want it any other way?

00:23:51.620 Should we say, hey, Netflix, can you stop making your programming so good?

00:23:56.360 I want to watch it all the time.

00:23:57.840 Hey, Apple, your iPhone is way too user-friendly.

00:24:01.380 Please, can you make it shittier?

00:24:02.740 Because I use it a lot. 0.98

00:24:04.160 It's ridiculous.

00:24:05.160 So instead of holding our breath, waiting for tech companies to change, in which case we are going to suffocate, 0.67

00:24:09.460 why don't we do something about ourselves without this hysteria, thinking that we're all getting hijacked and our brains are being manipulated?

00:24:17.380 Come on. 0.98

00:24:17.840 It's ridiculous. 0.93

00:24:19.100 We just don't know yet. 0.62

00:24:20.560 We haven't developed what's called the social antibodies to put this stuff in its place.

00:24:25.080 And as an industry insider, right, not some professor who's never had a social media account, I have all these social media accounts.

00:24:30.640 I love all this stuff.

00:24:32.080 And let me tell you, we can get the best out of these tools without letting them get the best of us.

00:24:36.480 I think I read somewhere in a book, I think it was a book about how to get a handle on your social media addiction or whatever.

00:24:42.360 But the guy mentioned monks.

00:24:43.640 There's monks who use smartphones, but they're not checking it all the time like we are.

00:24:48.760 And they're like, well, you know, I use a smartphone.

00:24:50.440 I'm okay.

00:24:51.780 Yeah, that's right.

00:24:52.940 And so this is exactly where we start.

00:24:54.720 So first and foremost, we have to start by mastering the internal triggers.

00:24:57.580 By realizing that the reason we get distracted, the reason we do anything is to escape discomfort and try to find ways to channel that discomfort towards traction rather than distraction.

00:25:08.400 So the first step has to be mastering the internal triggers.

00:25:11.060 The second step is to make time for traction.

00:25:13.980 And this utilizes this idea of turning your values into time.

00:25:19.440 You know, when I wrote this book, I interviewed a lot of folks who struggled with distraction.

00:25:23.520 And many of them would tell me, you know, I'm so distracted these days.

00:25:27.000 I can't get anything done between what my kids want and what my boss wants.

00:25:30.260 And, you know, this is happening on Slack and this is over email.

00:25:33.040 And you see what Donald Trump just tweeted.

00:25:34.640 I can't get anything done.

00:25:35.960 And I say, wow, that's really tough.

00:25:37.920 Can I see what exactly you got distracted from today?

00:25:41.840 What did you plan to do that you didn't get done?

00:25:44.960 And they'd oftentimes take out their calendar on their phone and they'd show it to me.

00:25:49.580 And it was blank.

00:25:51.020 There's nothing on their calendar.

00:25:53.620 And it turns out the two thirds of Americans don't keep any sort of calendar.

00:25:59.700 I mean, think about how crazy this is.

00:26:01.180 Like we spend so much time and effort protecting our stuff, right?

00:26:05.060 We lock up our money in banks.

00:26:06.900 We have home security systems.

00:26:08.620 We have car alarms.

00:26:09.540 We protect our stuff because we don't want anybody to steal it.

00:26:13.240 But when it comes to our time, oh yeah, sure.

00:26:15.880 Come on in.

00:26:16.540 Take it.

00:26:17.220 Take it.

00:26:17.580 Do whatever you want with it.

00:26:18.860 And if you don't plan your day, why are we surprised when someone plans it for you?

00:26:24.000 Whether it's your boss, whether it's your kids, whether it's something that happens in

00:26:27.200 the news.

00:26:27.860 If you have lots of white space in your day, you know what you're going to do with it?

00:26:31.180 You're going to putz it around.

00:26:32.400 You're going to waste it.

00:26:33.440 And so the thing is, we cannot call something a distraction unless we know what it distracted

00:26:39.740 us from.

00:26:41.220 So these monks who use social media, they understand there's nothing evil about social media.

00:26:46.120 It's a tool.

00:26:46.960 It's great.

00:26:47.600 I use it every day and I love it.

00:26:49.800 So let's stop vilifying it and instead use it correctly, which is to say, make time for

00:26:55.620 it.

00:26:55.920 If you like video games, make time for it.

00:26:58.720 If you want time to meditate, to pray, to go on a walk, to have focused work time, wonderful.

00:27:04.340 I want you to do that stuff according to your values.

00:27:07.140 And by simply using this technique that has been studied in thousands of studies now, it's

00:27:11.740 called setting an implementation intention, which is just a fancy way of saying you're

00:27:15.700 going to plan what you're going to do and when you're going to do it.

00:27:19.280 And so what I want folks to do is to keep what's called a time box calendar.

00:27:22.460 And I'll give you a link in the show notes.

00:27:23.880 I built this very simple tool, totally free.

00:27:26.180 You don't have to sign up for anything.

00:27:27.220 That all I want you to do is to turn your values into time.

00:27:31.140 So if you value physical health, and I'm not saying everybody needs to value that, just

00:27:35.080 whatever your values are, does that have time on your calendar?

00:27:38.520 If you value time with your friends, do you have a regular opportunity to do that?

00:27:42.780 If you value learning and growing intellectually, do you have time for that?

00:27:46.920 Do you have time for focused work?

00:27:48.900 These things need to be on your calendar because if they're not on your calendar, they're just

00:27:52.260 not going to get done.

00:27:53.200 So that's the second very important step to becoming indistractable.

00:27:55.900 Yeah, and it sounds like you have to be intentional.

00:27:57.780 You have to fill your day with stuff.

00:27:59.480 And the other thing too, as you talk about, it's not just filling it with positive stuff.

00:28:03.100 I mean, it's not positive or negative, but not just filling it with typical productive

00:28:07.860 stuff.

00:28:08.680 But also you can time box.

00:28:10.200 I'm going to scroll Instagram for 30 minutes this time.

00:28:13.460 Absolutely.

00:28:13.980 And in fact, it relieves you of that psychological tension.

00:28:17.020 So what happens to a lot of folks, particularly if they have kids, they'll tell their kids,

00:28:21.220 you can't play Fortnite until you finish everything else you have to do.

00:28:25.900 And so the kid all day is thinking about, am I going to be able to play it?

00:28:29.420 Am I going to be able to play it?

00:28:30.320 Am I going to be able to play it?

00:28:31.000 They're thinking, they obsess about it.

00:28:32.100 They ruminate about it.

00:28:33.260 And that makes it worse, right?

00:28:34.540 If we talked about how the thing that spurs all behavior is the desire to escape discomfort,

00:28:39.940 well, their rumination is uncomfortable, right?

00:28:42.600 This is why abstinence doesn't work, by the way.

00:28:44.600 If I tell you, hey, whatever you do right now, do not think of a white bear.

00:28:50.660 Of course, all you're going to be thinking about is a white bear.

00:28:53.640 So that's why strict abstinence doesn't work.

00:28:55.900 We need better techniques.

00:28:56.820 So by simply planning the time for ourselves, for our kids and saying, yep, you can play

00:29:01.780 Fortnite.

00:29:02.340 You can go on Facebook.

00:29:03.340 You can check Instagram at this time of day, as opposed to throughout your day, whenever

00:29:08.660 you feel bored for a minute, whenever you feel lonely.

00:29:10.720 No, it's coming, right?

00:29:11.820 8 p.m., that's the time on the calendar when you're going to scroll social media.

00:29:15.380 You turn what would otherwise be a distraction into traction.

00:29:19.560 Remember, the time you plan to waste is not wasted time.

00:29:24.200 And I think we've written about this before on the site about overcoming bad habits.

00:29:28.440 The more effective way, again, is not gritting yourself and sort of abstaining.

00:29:32.820 The more effective way, oftentimes, the easier way is to fill that up with good habits, right?

00:29:36.880 Plant flowers to smother their weeds. 0.89

00:29:39.280 And this kind of sounds what time boxing is.

00:29:40.900 Put on the calendar the stuff you want to do so you actually do it instead of filling

00:29:45.700 your day with stuff you don't actually enjoy doing.

00:29:48.720 Absolutely.

00:29:49.280 Absolutely.

00:29:49.720 That we can make it easier to do the things we really want to do by simply planning when

00:29:54.500 we are going to do it.

00:29:55.720 It's a huge step forward.

00:29:57.500 And I want to mention as well that it's not just about time boxing here.

00:30:01.960 That's been written about a lot.

00:30:02.920 I think what I'm hoping to add to the conversation is also this practice of schedule syncing.

00:30:08.180 Schedule syncing is the practice of sitting down with the stakeholders in your life and

00:30:12.300 reviewing that time box calendar so that you can synchronize expectations.

00:30:17.520 So this practice completely transformed my marriage.

00:30:20.900 I've been married for 18 years now.

00:30:23.580 And a few years ago, my wife and I would constantly fight about household responsibilities.

00:30:29.180 And it turns out this is not uncommon that, in fact, in most heterosexual dual-income households,

00:30:36.160 women still take on a disproportionate share of household admin duties. 1.00

00:30:40.020 And I'm embarrassed to admit that that was happening in my household, even though one of

00:30:43.640 my values is to have an egalitarian marriage, right?

00:30:46.640 I think we should be 50-50 partners.

00:30:48.560 And yet my wife was really taking on more household duties than I was. 1.00

00:30:52.300 And my excuse was just, you know, honey, if I don't do something, just tell me to do it.

00:30:56.380 What's the big deal?

00:30:57.200 You know, if like I forget to take out the trash or do the laundry or whatever, just tell

00:31:00.560 me and I'll do it.

00:31:02.040 What I didn't realize is that me asking her to do that was itself work.

00:31:07.480 I was asking her to be my boss.

00:31:09.440 And that's stressful and is unfair, frankly.

00:31:13.060 And the solution was so simple.

00:31:14.700 So all we do, we sit down for 15 minutes.

00:31:18.180 She has a time box calendar.

00:31:19.460 I have a time box calendar.

00:31:20.920 And inside that time box calendar are our household responsibilities, right?

00:31:26.500 So I know exactly when I'm going to make, you know, we meal plan.

00:31:30.700 So I cook everything on the weekend for the entire week.

00:31:33.420 So we have lunch and dinners already made.

00:31:35.960 I know when that's going to happen.

00:31:37.540 It's in my calendar, right?

00:31:38.940 I know when all the household tasks that I need to get done will happen so that she can 0.99

00:31:42.640 coordinate what she needs to do based on what I've already done and vice versa.

00:31:47.240 And let me tell you, this 15-minute practice of just looking at each other's calendars and

00:31:50.720 saying, okay, who's taking my daughter to this class today? 0.96

00:31:53.260 And okay, what's different this week than was last week?

00:31:55.460 It takes 15 minutes.

00:31:57.060 It saved our marriage.

00:31:59.060 And that same practice of schedule syncing is something we can do in the workplace as

00:32:02.480 well.

00:32:02.980 You know, so many managers, they just lob over outputs, right?

00:32:07.500 I want you to do this.

00:32:08.220 I want you to do that.

00:32:08.860 I want you to do this.

00:32:09.920 And they have no sense of how much time these tasks take. 0.94

00:32:13.920 And that's ridiculous.

00:32:14.720 It's a bait and switch, right? 0.84

00:32:16.280 We have this basic trust exchange in the workplace where I give my employer my time and they

00:32:21.420 give me money.

00:32:22.640 But if there's no understanding about how long something will take, what happens?

00:32:26.880 Well, we know what happens.

00:32:27.780 They screw us, right?

00:32:28.800 The time that we're supposed to be doing our work at work now bleeds into home time and

00:32:33.760 nights and weekends.

00:32:34.760 And so what we thought would be just a 40-hour-a-week job is now a 60- or an 80-hour-a-week

00:32:39.700 job.

00:32:40.520 And if you know that's what you're getting into, if you're going to work at a startup

00:32:42.820 or on Wall Street and you know that's what you're going to get into, great.

00:32:46.200 That's fantastic.

00:32:47.540 But if you didn't realize that and you thought you were getting into a place that only required

00:32:51.680 40 hours a week and now you're working 50, 60, 70 hours a week, well, that's a bait

00:32:55.680 and switch.

00:32:56.720 And so what we have to do is this regular practice of doing this schedule sync with our managers,

00:33:02.100 with our teams, and saying, look, boss, here's how I'm going to spend my time this week.

00:33:07.000 And by the way, it doesn't necessarily have to be in a week's time.

00:33:08.940 Some people do it every day.

00:33:10.200 If their schedule changes every day, you want to do it with the frequency with which your

00:33:13.540 calendar changes.

00:33:14.240 But most people can do this once a week.

00:33:16.280 They say, look, here's all the priorities I have on my plate.

00:33:18.280 Here's everything you asked me to do that's on my to-do list from you, all the backlog of

00:33:21.520 things you want me to do.

00:33:22.260 Here's how I'm spending my time.

00:33:23.880 Here are the things that I couldn't fit in my calendar.

00:33:26.900 Help me reprioritize.

00:33:28.000 What should I not be doing with my day?

00:33:30.580 And that schedule syncing process is incredibly effective.

00:33:35.480 You will see a huge boost in your performance when it comes to matching expectations with

00:33:41.040 what you should be doing with your time, with your boss, with your employees, through this

00:33:44.400 simple process that literally takes 15 minutes a week.

00:33:47.860 And do you think, I mean, in your experience, when you've talked to people who've done this,

00:33:50.720 I think a lot of people are a little hesitant to have that conversation with their boss.

00:33:54.400 They're like, well, the boss says, I got to do this.

00:33:56.240 Have you found that managers actually enjoy having that conversation with their employees?

00:34:00.460 In my experience, managers are scared to have this conversation, but they're dying to.

00:34:05.620 Because what a manager has to be very cautious of is micromanaging.

00:34:10.940 And so this is one of those practices that actually is better implemented from the bottom

00:34:14.680 up rather than the top down.

00:34:16.120 When a manager comes to an employee and says, I want to see every minute of your day, the

00:34:20.580 employee can bristle at that. 0.75

00:34:22.020 But when the employee comes to the boss and says, hey, boss, I really want to do everything

00:34:27.020 you've asked me to do, but I just can't fit it all into my schedule.

00:34:30.240 Can you help me figure out what to deprioritize?

00:34:33.360 Then we have transparency into how we spend our time.

00:34:37.180 And typically, a manager will be very amenable to that.

00:34:40.660 Whereas when it goes the other way around, you might get an opposite reaction.

00:34:43.880 Gotcha.

00:34:44.000 So these are tactics you can use, I think high-level tactics beyond then just like block

00:34:48.420 stuff on my phone and whatever to help you get a control of those external triggers.

00:34:54.000 We're still in schedule syncing.

00:34:55.840 The external triggers, that's the next step.

00:34:57.240 That's step three.

00:34:57.820 That's the next step.

00:34:58.200 Okay.

00:34:58.860 Well, let's talk about that.

00:34:59.840 Let's talk about getting a hold of external triggers.

00:35:02.100 Yeah.

00:35:02.400 Yeah.

00:35:02.580 So the third step, I call hacking back the external triggers.

00:35:05.520 And the reason I call it hacking back is that I think everyone is pretty convinced that

00:35:10.680 these technologies are hacking our attention.

00:35:13.960 You know, they're not hijacking our brains. 0.65

00:35:15.520 I think that's a ridiculous term.

00:35:16.660 Hijacking is what they did to us on 9-11. 1.00

00:35:18.420 It's not, you know, email and Slack channels, let's be honest here.

00:35:21.520 But they are definitely hacking our attention through all of these pings and dings.

00:35:25.160 Well, the fact is we can hack back, right?

00:35:28.680 Two-thirds of people with a smartphone never change their notification settings. 0.70

00:35:32.260 That's ridiculous. 0.58

00:35:33.480 Okay. 0.75

00:35:33.720 Can we really complain about technology addicting us if we haven't taken 10 minutes to change

00:35:37.980 the notification settings?

00:35:38.880 So I devote a couple pages to that in the book, but that's kindergarten stuff, right?

00:35:42.400 Lots of books can tell you how to change your notifications on your phone.

00:35:45.180 If you don't do it, I don't want to hear that you're distracted, right?

00:35:47.280 It takes 10 minutes.

00:35:48.140 Turn off those notification settings that don't serve you because Zuckerberg can't turn them

00:35:51.460 back on.

00:35:52.340 What we find is a much more pernicious source of distraction are the ones that people don't

00:35:56.140 think about.

00:35:57.160 Okay.

00:35:58.640 Principally, if we work in an open floor plan office, turns out that these open floor plan

00:36:03.540 offices save companies a ton of money because they don't have to give everyone their

00:36:06.880 own private office like they used to have to a couple of generations ago.

00:36:10.700 But today, companies save all that money because they save a lot on real estate, but these open

00:36:16.400 floor plan offices are a hotbed of distraction.

00:36:19.740 Way more than our devices is Janice coming over and saying, hey, did you hear the latest

00:36:24.820 office gossip?

00:36:25.940 Or, hey, can I ask you a quick question?

00:36:27.920 Not that there's anything wrong with that.

00:36:29.120 We want to interact with our colleagues, but we want to do it on our schedule, not just

00:36:33.000 when anybody feels like coming by our desk and interrupting us.

00:36:36.060 So every copy of Indistractable comes with a cardboard cutout that you pull out of the

00:36:42.260 book, you fold it into thirds, and it's what I call a screen sign.

00:36:46.500 You put this screen sign on your computer monitor, and it tells your colleagues, I'm

00:36:51.520 Indistractable.

00:36:52.720 Please come back later.

00:36:53.860 You can't miss it.

00:36:54.500 It's this bright red sign that you put on your computer screen.

00:36:57.140 Now, I know some people are thinking, well, I put on headphones, and headphones tell people

00:37:00.880 that I can't be bothered right now.

00:37:02.480 But here's the thing.

00:37:03.560 They're not bothering you for the wrong reasons.

00:37:06.360 They're not bothering you because they think you're watching YouTube videos.

00:37:09.400 So you want to send a very clear message.

00:37:11.300 You are not watching YouTube videos.

00:37:12.620 You are doing work, and it's okay to ask people to come back a little bit later.

00:37:18.120 And so that's what this means by hacking back the external triggers, whether the external

00:37:21.980 triggers are our technology or being distracted by colleagues.

00:37:25.900 Gotcha.

00:37:26.460 And I mean, this is kind of related to time syncing, blocking your schedule.

00:37:30.540 Another thing you talk about, and I've seen other places that I've done, I've tried in

00:37:33.420 my life and implement it with success, is set time for email, right?

00:37:37.380 Instead of just checking your email constantly, okay, the way you hack back on that, turn off

00:37:41.180 all the notifications, and then you're only going to check it at certain hours in the day.

00:37:44.840 Absolutely.

00:37:45.420 Absolutely.

00:37:45.760 So this technique is probably the most bang for the buck that you can possibly get from

00:37:51.440 the book.

00:37:53.080 And I'll give it away right now.

00:37:54.280 I'll tell you what to do.

00:37:54.940 So it turns out that between email and meetings, those two things, the time left over for the

00:38:01.820 average knowledge worker to do everything they have to do in their day is only an hour

00:38:05.400 and a half.

00:38:06.500 So if you took out meetings and email from the average knowledge worker's day, they'd only

00:38:11.460 have about an hour and a half to do everything else in their day.

00:38:13.600 It's crazy, right?

00:38:14.560 So that's why most work gets done outside of work on nights and weekends. 0.88

00:38:19.080 Well, that's ridiculous.

00:38:19.940 So how do we start hacking back email?

00:38:22.140 So here's a killer technique that I've been using now for a few years that has dramatically

00:38:27.120 reduced the amount of time I spend on email every day.

00:38:29.340 So the equation you want to remember when it comes to the time we spend on email is called

00:38:34.000 TNT.

00:38:35.400 TNT stands for the total time you spend on email, the big T, equals the number of emails

00:38:40.520 you get times little t, the time you spend per email.

00:38:43.880 Pretty basic, right?

00:38:44.760 Number of emails you get multiplied by the time you spend per email.

00:38:48.060 So how do you reduce the total time you spend on email?

00:38:51.380 Well, the first principle is that if you want to get fewer emails, you have to send fewer

00:38:56.600 emails.

00:38:57.020 Well, how do you send fewer emails?

00:38:59.140 You make sure that you only send the emails that really need to be sent.

00:39:04.240 Because what most people do, they go chronologically through their email and they kind of catch

00:39:08.480 as catch can, right?

00:39:09.340 Whatever is at the top of their email inbox, that's what they try and reply to.

00:39:12.720 Some people try and get to this mythical place of inbox zero as quickly as possible, but that's

00:39:16.440 so counterproductive because the more emails you send per day, the more emails you're going

00:39:22.720 to get back per day, right?

00:39:24.200 You're playing this email ping pong game. 0.90

00:39:25.800 That's ridiculous.

00:39:27.020 So instead, what you want to do, what we find is that where we spend the most time wasted

00:39:32.760 on email is not the checking.

00:39:35.500 It's not the replying.

00:39:37.340 It's the re-checking.

00:39:39.560 That's a huge waste of time.

00:39:40.980 Here's what this looks like.

00:39:42.020 You open an email, you read it, you put it away.

00:39:44.300 You open the next email, you read it, you put it away.

00:39:47.360 Hour goes by, you open that email again, you read it, you put it away.

00:39:50.300 That process is a huge waste of time.

00:39:53.460 And then sometimes people open and check, you know, each email five, six, seven, maybe

00:39:57.680 10 times. 0.62

00:39:58.380 It's ridiculous.

00:39:59.520 Next time we have to create ourselves a little rule here that every email that we open, we

00:40:04.680 only touch twice.

00:40:05.920 The first time we open that email, we have to answer this question.

00:40:10.460 When does it need a reply?

00:40:12.060 That's the only thing we care about.

00:40:13.360 When does this email need a reply?

00:40:15.060 If it never needs a reply, we just archive it.

00:40:17.960 If it needs a reply right this second, like a hair on fire type of problem, okay, go ahead

00:40:21.880 and reply right now.

00:40:23.160 But everything else, you know, I don't subscribe to the two minute rule by David Allen.

00:40:26.660 And I think that's bad advice because you know what happens if it's a two minute rule

00:40:30.060 and you have a hundred emails that each require two minutes.

00:40:32.660 Well, now you're spending 200 minutes on email.

00:40:34.400 So I don't like that rule at all.

00:40:36.000 Instead, what we want to do is ask ourselves, when does this message need a reply?

00:40:41.300 Does it need to reply today or sometime this week?

00:40:45.460 Then we have time on our calendar every day for only the emails that need a reply today.

00:40:51.180 And we label each email that needs a reply today as such.

00:40:54.200 Now that's going to be about 10 to 20% of your email inbox is messages that need a reply

00:40:58.920 today.

00:40:59.680 About 80% of your emails either never need a reply or they can wait a little while.

00:41:05.880 So then we have time on our time box calendar when we only reply to the emails that need

00:41:09.840 a reply today.

00:41:11.340 And we do that only today.

00:41:12.440 Then we have one day in our week.

00:41:15.240 For me, I call it message Mondays, where it's a big four hour block where I flush through

00:41:20.420 all those emails that can wait a little while.

00:41:23.040 Now you say to yourself, yeah, but what's the difference, right?

00:41:25.620 If I reply to it right away or if I reply to it in a week's time, isn't it the same thing?

00:41:29.720 No, it's not.

00:41:30.960 There's this magic thing that happens when you let non-urgent emails wait.

00:41:35.960 They decompose, right?

00:41:38.260 This is called email decomposition, kind of like a compost pile.

00:41:42.340 What happens is when you let non-urgent emails wait a little while, most of them you don't need

00:41:48.420 to answer because people figure out stuff on their own or something just gets crushed under

00:41:54.240 the weight of some other priority and is no longer relevant.

00:41:57.600 And so by letting emails just simmer for a little while, letting them decompose, you'll

00:42:02.380 find that many of them never need a reply.

00:42:05.400 The ones that do, you go ahead and flush through all those in that time slot where you have to

00:42:11.520 go through the emails that require a response sometime this week.

00:42:14.480 And this will dramatically reduce the time you spend on email.

00:42:18.340 That's awesome.

00:42:18.840 And you also have great advice and sort of tactics to use with Slack or other social networking

00:42:23.740 services that people can check out in the book.

00:42:25.420 I want to circle back to this idea of internal triggers.

00:42:27.780 So one thing you talk about is like being aware of those internal triggers and what they

00:42:32.100 trigger, right?

00:42:32.780 So if you see, okay, I'm feeling sad, I'm going to check Instagram.

00:42:37.080 Should people like come up with alternatives?

00:42:40.400 So if they're feeling sad, like they have something planned they're going to do instead

00:42:44.260 of checking Instagram?

00:42:46.400 Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

00:42:47.260 So the idea here is that we want to, there's three things we can do with these internal triggers.

00:42:51.760 We can reimagine the task, reimagine the trigger and reimagine our temperament.

00:42:57.940 And so when it comes to using these techniques in concert, when we know what we want to do in

00:43:02.500 that minute, we know that that is traction.

00:43:04.240 So let's say you sit down and you say, okay, I'm going to work on this big project.

00:43:08.100 I've got this presentation I need to do, I need to do my taxes, I need to do this research,

00:43:12.020 I need to do this thing I'm not really crazy about doing, but I need to do it.

00:43:15.160 So you have that time on your calendar and now you find yourself getting distracted, okay?

00:43:20.400 Let me make this very personal.

00:43:21.760 So for me, writing is really hard work.

00:43:24.300 I've written two books, but it's really, really hard.

00:43:27.140 It does not come naturally for me.

00:43:28.580 I don't understand these authors who can just whip out a book in a few months' time.

00:43:32.840 That's just not me.

00:43:33.680 It's hard.

00:43:34.520 And I would constantly get distracted.

00:43:36.620 I would just check email for a minute or look something up on Google or do some research.

00:43:41.980 And I would do this stuff thinking, oh, this is productive, right?

00:43:45.620 This is helping me.

00:43:46.820 But the fact of the matter is, if it's not traction, if it's not what I plan to do, it's

00:43:51.600 distraction.

00:43:52.940 So this is what I call pseudo work.

00:43:54.540 It's the stuff that tricks you into thinking it's productive.

00:43:57.020 Oh, email, yeah, that needs to get done sometime.

00:43:59.120 No, if you're doing a task that you plan to do, like writing, like finishing that presentation,

00:44:04.520 whatever that thing that you've been putting off, the hard stuff that you didn't want to

00:44:07.360 do, if you're giving up that time to do just the urgent stuff, just the emails, which most

00:44:11.860 of the time aren't even urgent, then you're just as distracted as if you would be playing

00:44:15.740 a video game.

00:44:16.420 It's just as counterproductive.

00:44:17.800 So what do you do?

00:44:19.380 So now I don't get distracted this way anymore.

00:44:22.180 So now when I sit down to write, when I find myself about to get distracted, what psychologists

00:44:28.000 tell us to do, and this comes from acceptance and commitment therapy, what they tell us to

00:44:31.800 do, one of the most empowering things we can do is to simply note the sensation, writing

00:44:37.360 down what it is you are feeling, without judgment, just with curiosity.

00:44:43.440 I'm feeling bored.

00:44:44.840 This is hard work.

00:44:46.040 This is difficult.

00:44:47.100 I'm anxious whether anybody's going to like this.

00:44:48.840 Whatever it might be, just write down that sensation on a piece of paper next to you.

00:44:53.460 Then what you want to do is to call, is called surf the urge, because in the moment when we

00:44:58.920 experience an emotion, it feels like it's going to last forever, right?

00:45:02.060 When we're angry or sad or happy or whatever, it feels like we're always going to be that

00:45:05.840 way.

00:45:06.300 And that's never the case, that emotions are fleeting and then they subside, kind of like

00:45:11.020 a wave.

00:45:12.040 And so what we want to do is to surf that urge with curiosity rather than contempt.

00:45:15.880 Now, most people, they'll fall into two camps.

00:45:18.980 They'll either be blamers or shamers.

00:45:21.300 The blamers are the ones that say, oh, it's Facebook.

00:45:24.020 It's my iPhone.

00:45:25.000 It's Slack that's doing it to me.

00:45:27.220 The shamers, and this is what I used to do, they say, oh man, I have a short attention

00:45:31.940 span or maybe I'm lazy or maybe there's something wrong with me.

00:45:34.920 Or we shame ourselves into thinking that there's something wrong with us.

00:45:39.080 And of course, neither of those answers are correct.

00:45:41.560 Blaming others or shaming yourself, neither of those things are the right approach.

00:45:44.780 Instead, the right approach is to explore that sensation with curiosity rather than contempt.

00:45:50.920 And one of the techniques that I use to surf the urge is called the 10-minute rule, where

00:45:54.560 you can tell yourself, I will give in to any distraction, whether that distraction is,

00:45:58.700 hey, I really want to check email right now, or I really want to look at my fantasy sports

00:46:02.620 numbers, or whatever the case might be.

00:46:04.640 I really want to eat that piece of chocolate cake.

00:46:06.620 You can do that in 10 minutes.

00:46:09.640 And I'll set a timer.

00:46:11.760 I'll literally say into my cell phone, you know, set a timer for 10 minutes.

00:46:14.700 And my job is to just sit here and feel that sensation with curiosity instead of contempt,

00:46:20.860 or get back to the task at hand.

00:46:23.960 And you will find that nine times out of 10, you will get back to the task at hand before

00:46:29.240 those 10 minutes are up.

00:46:30.400 And this is a way, way more effective technique than sheer abstinence.

00:46:33.840 As we talked about earlier, when you obsess about it and say, no, no, no, no, no, no,

00:46:37.560 no, no, no, okay, fine.

00:46:38.820 That actually makes things worse.

00:46:40.580 So strict abstinence oftentimes doesn't work for these kinds of things.

00:46:43.680 Instead, what we want to do is to learn how to manage these sensations and ride them like

00:46:48.140 a surfer on a surfboard.

00:46:49.600 Yeah, the 10-minute rule sounds like, you know, a tactic that people suggest if you,

00:46:53.280 for people who like to shop.

00:46:54.580 So instead of like, okay, I want this thing, buying it now, like I'm going to wait till tomorrow.

00:46:58.740 And typically the urge goes away by then.

00:47:01.040 And they're fine.

00:47:01.940 So I like that.

00:47:02.960 That's a really useful tactic there.

00:47:05.320 So we've talked about getting an understanding of our internal triggers, doing the time boxing,

00:47:10.300 and then hacking away external triggers.

00:47:12.300 The last section on how to get a handle of distraction is using pre-commitments.

00:47:17.360 So for those who aren't familiar, what are pre-commitments?

00:47:19.640 And what are some examples of pre-commitments that can help people to become indistractable?

00:47:24.020 Sure.

00:47:24.300 So this is the last step.

00:47:25.560 And this is something that I have to warn you about a little bit because we have to do it

00:47:28.460 last, right?

00:47:29.540 A lot of people have tried some variation of these techniques and they find that they

00:47:33.660 backfire because they haven't done the other ones first.

00:47:37.100 So there's a time and place to use these pre-commitments.

00:47:38.980 A pre-commitment is basically deciding in advance what you are going to do so that when

00:47:44.160 you potentially get distracted, you have some kind of instrument in place that prevents you

00:47:49.280 from doing something you don't want to do.

00:47:51.220 So a good example of a pre-commitment is a retirement account where if you take out your

00:47:57.500 money before you've reached a certain age, you have a penalty that you have to pay because

00:48:02.600 it's preventing you from doing something you don't want to do.

00:48:05.440 So that would be an example of pre-commitment.

00:48:07.180 Now we can use these pre-commitments to block out distraction.

00:48:10.340 How do we do that?

00:48:11.240 Well, there are three types of pacts.

00:48:14.200 There's an effort pact, a price pact, and an identity pact.

00:48:17.660 An effort pact is where we put some bit of work in between us and something we don't

00:48:22.820 want to do.

00:48:23.920 So in my life, a good example of this is a few years ago, I found that my sex life was

00:48:28.120 really suffering and my wife and I had been married for 18 years and we were just not

00:48:32.580 being intimate with each other because every night we would go to bed and she would fondle

00:48:37.020 her iPhone and I would caress my iPad and we wouldn't spend any time together.

00:48:41.400 And we were going to sleep later and later because of our devices.

00:48:45.160 And that was really taking a toll on our marriage.

00:48:47.660 And so what did I do?

00:48:49.400 First, we followed these three steps that come before, right?

00:48:52.160 We mastered the internal triggers, made time for traction by putting in bedtime in our calendars,

00:48:56.680 right?

00:48:56.820 It literally says not only bedtime, it says when it's time to get ready for bed.

00:49:00.120 We hacked back the external triggers so there's no screens in our bedroom anymore.

00:49:03.880 And now we come to the fourth step in terms of using a pact.

00:49:07.680 Here's what I did.

00:49:08.620 I went to the hardware store and I bought this $10 outlet timer.

00:49:13.360 And the outlet timer plugs into your wall and whatever you plug into the outlet timer will

00:49:19.420 turn off at a certain time of day or night, whatever you program into it.

00:49:22.920 So in my household, every night at 10 p.m., my internet router shuts off, okay?

00:49:30.180 Now, this was a few years ago.

00:49:31.540 Now, I actually bought a router that has this built in.

00:49:34.200 So now all the smart home devices like Amazon Alexa, et cetera, that stuff stays on.

00:49:38.320 But my computers, my iPhone, the iPads, all that stuff loses its internet connection at that time.

00:49:45.140 Now, could I turn it off?

00:49:46.420 Of course I could, right?

00:49:47.440 I could go fiddle around with the settings and do that stuff.

00:49:50.300 But that would take work, right?

00:49:51.840 That would take effort.

00:49:53.100 So this effort pact keeps you on track by making a little bit of work, keeping you away from

00:49:58.380 something that you don't want to do.

00:50:00.240 So as this last resort, remember, hacking back external triggers is about keeping those

00:50:04.260 external triggers out.

00:50:06.540 Using pre-commitments to prevent distraction is about keeping yourself in.

00:50:10.820 Gotcha.

00:50:11.100 So this is sort of like the Odysseus, right?

00:50:13.820 What Odysseus did, right?

00:50:15.140 When he tied himself to the mast.

00:50:16.260 Like he knew he'd go crazy listening to the sirens.

00:50:20.140 So he tied himself to the mast so he didn't have to worry about it.

00:50:22.940 Right, right.

00:50:23.500 Exactly.

00:50:24.340 And I like the identity pre-commitment.

00:50:26.440 Because that was something I've never heard of before.

00:50:27.520 And I thought it was really interesting.

00:50:28.420 I actually found it very useful.

00:50:29.720 What is an identity pre-commitment?

00:50:31.800 Sure.

00:50:32.280 Yeah.

00:50:32.520 So this comes from the psychology of religion.

00:50:35.300 And we know that it turns out that people who call themselves a certain moniker, they have

00:50:41.400 a certain identity, don't seem to expend any self-control or willpower on doing or not doing

00:50:48.740 something that's consistent with their identity.

00:50:51.400 And this is something I really like because I hate willpower.

00:50:53.820 I hate self-control.

00:50:54.880 I hate self-discipline.

00:50:56.180 That's not what this book is about.

00:50:57.820 I want to help people have systems in place so that they don't need any self-discipline.

00:51:01.640 And so this line of research was really interesting to me.

00:51:04.980 And we see it all the time, right?

00:51:07.200 You know, there's that joke about how do you know someone's a vegan?

00:51:10.200 Don't worry, they'll tell you.

00:51:11.940 And not to pick on vegans because you can substitute any moniker there.

00:51:15.680 You know, you can substitute people who are paleo or people who are, you know, CrossFit or

00:51:20.980 Marines or whatever.

00:51:22.340 When there's an identity involved, we become more likely to live up to that moniker.

00:51:26.660 So a devout Muslim doesn't ask themselves every day, ooh, should I have that gin and

00:51:31.800 tonic?

00:51:32.260 No, devout Muslims don't drink alcohol, period.

00:51:35.100 It's who they are.

00:51:36.380 They're not deciding, ooh, should I or should I not?

00:51:39.200 And so that's why the book is titled Indistractable.

00:51:43.400 Because indistractable is a made-up word.

00:51:45.440 And that word is very similar, it sounds like, indestructible.

00:51:49.340 And so I want people to start calling themselves this moniker.

00:51:52.300 I want this to be a new identity.

00:51:53.820 So when someone complains to you, hey, I emailed you and you didn't reply back in 30 minutes

00:51:58.660 after I sent you the email, you can reply, oh, I'm sorry, I'm indistractable.

00:52:01.780 That's not what I do.

00:52:02.560 I don't interrupt my time that I planned when I'm doing something else to constantly be

00:52:07.100 available.

00:52:07.460 It's not who I am, okay?

00:52:08.920 I use this screen sign on my monitor because I'm indistractable.

00:52:12.960 That's how I prioritize my time.

00:52:14.880 That's who I am.

00:52:16.080 And I say, oh, that's crazy.

00:52:16.940 Aren't people going to bristle at that?

00:52:18.240 Why should they bristle any more than people wearing ethnic garb or religious garb? 0.97

00:52:22.580 It's just who you are.

00:52:23.480 This is your monitor.

00:52:24.300 This is what you do.

00:52:26.260 And so that identity pact, calling yourself indistractable, teaching others about how to

00:52:31.580 be indistractable.

00:52:32.260 By the way, this is something we also see in religion.

00:52:34.500 You notice that every major religion has apostles, right?

00:52:38.280 It has missionaries.

00:52:39.840 And part of that, of course, is to spread the faith.

00:52:41.960 But more so from a psychological standpoint, the reason that every major religion has people

00:52:48.240 who proselytize is not only for the person they're trying to convert, but rather it's

00:52:54.220 for the person doing the converting.

00:52:55.620 So when you tell someone else that you are a Christian, you are a vegan, you are a whatever, 0.76

00:53:03.360 you are reinforcing your own identity and making it more likely for you to stay on the straight

00:53:09.080 and narrow.

00:53:09.880 And we can do the exact same thing when it comes to being indistractable.

00:53:14.680 All right.

00:53:14.840 So just from here on, everyone's going to start calling themselves indistractable.

00:53:17.980 Yes.

00:53:18.340 It sounds crazy, but you know what?

00:53:19.720 This is how every movement started.

00:53:20.940 So it sounds crazy for a while and maybe only the early adopters will do it.

00:53:23.880 And those are the people who are going to be more productive at work, more happy in their

00:53:27.400 home lives, more healthy because they actually work out and do what they say they're going to do.

00:53:31.840 And so hopefully, you know, in a few years, this will catch on.

00:53:34.580 But here's your opportunity to be an early adopter.

00:53:36.980 Right.

00:53:37.480 It'll be religion. 0.96

00:53:38.360 Exactly.

00:53:38.520 This will be like the founding dog.

00:53:39.520 Well, Nir, where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:53:43.300 Absolutely.

00:53:43.740 Yeah.

00:53:43.860 So my website is called nirandfar.com.

00:53:46.300 Nir is spelled like my first name, N-I-R.

00:53:48.500 So that's N-I-R and far.com. 0.87

00:53:51.480 And when it comes to indistractable, you can go to indistractable.com.

00:53:54.660 There's an 80-page complimentary workbook that we couldn't fit into the hardback.

00:53:59.160 So you can get it for free at indistractable.com.

00:54:01.860 There's also a video course, all kinds of tools and resources there as well.

00:54:04.800 And that's all at indistractable.

00:54:07.020 That's spelled I-N, the word distract.

00:54:09.800 A-B-L-E. 0.95

00:54:11.000 So indistractable.com.

00:54:12.800 Fantastic.

00:54:13.180 Well, Nir, thanks so much for your time.

00:54:13.980 It's been a pleasure.

00:54:14.880 My pleasure.

00:54:15.420 Thank you.

00:54:16.340 My guest is Nir Eyal.

00:54:17.780 He's the author of the book Indistractable.

00:54:19.980 It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.

00:54:22.360 You can find out more information about his work at his website, nirandfar.com.

00:54:26.140 That's N-I-R-A-N-D-F-A-R.com. 1.00

00:54:28.860 Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash indistractable, where you can find links to resources,

00:54:33.680 where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:54:39.520 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast.

00:54:44.900 Check out our website at artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives, as

00:54:48.260 well as thousands of articles that we've written over the years about productivity, time management,

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00:55:25.240 but put what you've heard into action.

The Art of Manliness - October 21, 2019

#553： How to Become Indistractable

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