The Art of Manliness - #561： Get With the Program

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast all of us are

00:00:11.980 part of teams at work and in our communities even our families are teams and most of us serve as

00:00:16.800 both members and leaders of these teams how then could we be our best in both roles my guest day

00:00:21.380 has spent his career gaining on the ground answers to these questions through his experience as a

00:00:25.100 marine and special operator in the military and a leadership trainer of corporate and athletic

00:00:28.900 teams as a civilian his name is eric kapitulik and he's the founder of the team and leadership

00:00:32.640 development company the program and the co-author of a book with the same name today on the show eric

00:00:37.280 and i take a deep yet punchy dive into the keys of team and leadership development and how these

00:00:41.500 principles can be applied to whether you're leading a family a sports team or a business we begin our

00:00:45.620 conversation discussing the biggest problem eric sees in the teams he works with why resolving most

00:00:50.060 of these issues begins with the definition of core values and how someone can figure out what their

00:00:53.960 core values are eric then explains the difference between goals and standards and why teams should

00:00:57.760 focus more on instilling standards and holding team members accountable to them we then discuss

00:01:01.700 the difference between being kind and being nice why leading by example is insufficient how eric defines

00:01:06.840 hard work and the two excuses you need to eliminate from your life after the show's over check out our

00:01:11.340 show notes at aom.is slash the program eric joins me now via clearcast.io

00:01:16.080 all right eric kapitulik welcome to the show thank you for having me brett so you're the co-author of

00:01:31.040 a book called the program which i really enjoyed but before the program was a book it was and is a

00:01:36.000 business you started to train athletic and corporate teams on how to be good teammates and good team

00:01:40.760 leaders how and why did you start the program the business and why did you turn the lessons you've

00:01:46.120 gotten from your business into a book yeah thanks so well i was born and raised in northeastern

00:01:52.180 connecticut my dad was a policeman and my mom was a school teacher i always kind of start with them

00:01:57.680 because we are all i believe a sum of our experiences but boy i don't believe in luck but except

00:02:09.580 when it pertains to the family you happen to be born into and my parents were were great parents

00:02:17.380 and had to and continue to have a huge impact on my life but born and raised in northeastern

00:02:23.280 connecticut very fortunate was a three-sport varsity athlete in high school went on to play

00:02:29.140 college lacrosse at the u.s naval academy and then was commissioned as a second lieutenant in the united

00:02:36.320 states marine corps i served for eight years as both an infantry officer and then in marine corps

00:02:42.960 special operations as a platoon commander for fifth platoon first force reconnaissance company

00:02:49.140 after eight years on active duty i was honorably discharged i left active duty i attended the

00:02:56.680 university of chicago graduate school of business and then shortly thereafter founded the program and that

00:03:03.800 was 12 years ago now the the program the company my company and when i first started the program

00:03:12.280 i had the opportunity to work with harvard men's lacrosse i had one of the last things i did

00:03:19.960 in the marines was i served as admissions director and admissions director at at back at the naval academy

00:03:29.080 and when i just got there on that tour of duty a couple lacrosse players had gotten in trouble

00:03:37.060 and the head coach at the time called me in my office and said hey cap can you come down here and

00:03:44.480 just wear these guys out for a couple days so every day when classes ended i would get the lacrosse team

00:03:52.660 and just work them out i would do the workout with them but just doing marine corps force recon type of

00:03:59.560 workouts just to wear them out well now fast forward 10 years later i've just founded the program

00:04:07.700 and the assistant coach on that team was just named the head coach of the harvard men's lacrosse team

00:04:14.560 and he called me one day and said cap i just took over one of the softest teams and the softest sports

00:04:20.520 on the softest campuses right and hey can you come down here and just do what you did with my guys

00:04:26.080 to what you did with the guys at navy years ago i said yeah sure so i went down there and that's what

00:04:32.220 i did now from that first team 12 years ago the program our company has has really changed and i take

00:04:40.820 great pride in saying that i founded the program but i cannot say it quick enough that i would be out

00:04:48.060 of business if it was if it were still i we have made it what it is my teammates and i at the program

00:04:54.340 have made the the company the program what it is today and but from that first event i called out

00:05:00.320 as i was working out with the team i called out their team captains just to lead a few of the exercises

00:05:06.520 and these are great young men but they were just bad at communicating what exercises we were going to do

00:05:14.180 and then leading the team so from that first event i got the idea that you know god i don't think these

00:05:21.740 guys really need another workout guy they've all at the college level everybody's got a strength

00:05:26.500 and conditioning coach but boy they really need some help with leadership development and the coaches

00:05:33.680 do too well from that first event now 12 years later in our first year in business we worked with

00:05:39.920 three men's lacrosse teams i called coaches i played for against or with now after 12 years in

00:05:46.160 business we work with more than 160 collegiate and professional athletic teams and major corporations

00:05:52.320 throughout north america annually so it's not beliefs it's what we know from working through our own

00:05:58.740 personal experiences but then also working with 160 teams a year are those keys for us to be our best

00:06:08.260 that's what i wrote the book myself and my co-author jake mcdonald are one of our lead instructors with

00:06:14.940 the program what he and i wrote the book about what are those keys to ensure mission success on a

00:06:21.800 consistent basis and what i love about this the the program is you basically take the principles that

00:06:27.660 you've been formulating and seeing and showing people and putting in the book what i love about this

00:06:33.360 it not only applies to sports teams or corporations it's applicable to families people who are leaders

00:06:39.160 in community groups non-profit organizations it it covers lots of domains brett you mentioned families

00:06:48.240 there's no there's no team i'm more passionate about than my family so there's never been a more

00:06:59.860 true statement than little kids little problems big kids big problems as just as parents as leaders of

00:07:08.040 our family if we address so many issues at a young age they never manifest themselves as your children

00:07:18.160 join other teams later on in life i mean there's if if anything if if you were to say hey what's

00:07:27.180 from this book who should read this book the most i i would say parents no i i got a lot out of it like

00:07:35.160 as soon as i finished the book last week we have a we have a family meeting once a week in my family

00:07:39.920 where we go over what's going on in our our family schedule we also my wife and i try to teach some sort

00:07:45.400 of like short lessons usually five minutes and i used a principle from your book we'll talk about it here

00:07:49.900 in a bit standards and goals difference between the two and the kids seem to really that makes my day

00:07:54.540 to hear it yeah my kids seem to really resonate with that well so let's talk you've been doing

00:07:59.040 this for 12 years during that time and we're working with different teams and organizations

00:08:03.100 what are the biggest problems you see with team leadership and team cohesion over and over again

00:08:09.140 yeah i well brett you just i hesitate only because boy i wish it could be just one thing right if

00:08:19.440 whenever a team is underperforming and and and somebody asks that coach or that business leader

00:08:26.280 or or a parent hey coach what what needs to change well man if it was just one thing boy we could do

00:08:34.440 that real easy we could do it right now we can change that one thing it's usually a combination of

00:08:40.640 things okay but where we start and where we challenge people to start if you want to have a world-class

00:08:50.000 team a world-class family athletic team school classroom band or corporation start with having

00:08:59.600 clearly defined core values what does it mean to be one of us because that right there is what's

00:09:10.420 important to you it's it's the it's the fiber of who we are is just what are our core values as an

00:09:17.860 organization whether that organization be a family as i said an athletic team a corporation

00:09:23.120 and the reason why it's so important to figure out what our core values are as a team is that getting

00:09:31.360 back to what you just referenced standards every team that we work with that we're privileged enough

00:09:37.880 to work with to include families every parent gives their child goals every coach has goals every

00:09:48.840 business leader has goals we give our teams hundreds of goals and we should because performance matters

00:09:58.460 performance matters my son comes home from school tells me hey daddy we're you know we're taught you

00:10:03.040 you know winning it doesn't matter if you win or lose i go hold on here one second it doesn't matter

00:10:09.180 so so you need to tell me that when you are pinning somebody when you wrestle he's eight when you're

00:10:15.520 pinning somebody that when you're wrestling it doesn't feel any differently than when you're getting

00:10:20.600 pinned don't don't tell me winning doesn't matter it matters but not at the expense of our core values

00:10:28.660 of being who we say we are as an example the only thing i talked to my son my daughter's two and a

00:10:37.460 half and we're starting to talk to her about it but i dropped my son off at school this morning

00:10:42.100 as i leave him we go over hey buddy what are we going to be today we're gonna be selfless tough

00:10:49.100 and disciplined daddy what does selfless mean it means we put the team first what does tough mean

00:10:55.580 it means we do what's right not what's easy and what does disciplined mean it means that we do what

00:11:02.300 we say we're going to do great have a great day buddy i'm proud of you those core values yes he we're

00:11:13.320 going to talk to him about his report card and his grades and all of that yeah but look i would rather

00:11:18.640 him be selfless tough and disciplined and take a really challenging class where that he gets a b in

00:11:23.360 then just talk to him about getting a's brett i would say having clearly defined core values

00:11:31.240 is is just a must for consistent world-class performance no i can see a lot of organizations

00:11:38.820 i've seen it where they don't even know what their core values are and so it creates a lot it your core

00:11:44.320 values determine every other action that the organization takes when you don't have those core

00:11:49.140 values people on the team like why why do we exist why are we even here what's the point of it

00:11:55.060 and so you see disengagement resentment but as soon as you put those core values in place people have a

00:12:00.740 mission that they're going to start going after that's right that's right and and we feel that core

00:12:06.440 values are even more important than a mission because missions can change i mean in the military you get

00:12:14.000 you're given 100 missions they change constantly who we are that's that's the foundation that's the

00:12:20.660 bedrock that regardless of the mission if we are this we're going to be okay and by the same token

00:12:29.340 as you mentioned earlier standards well we give our we give our kids lots of goals hey get a's

00:12:35.260 you know all of this stuff but as important are what are our standards okay goals are what we want to

00:12:42.800 achieve standards are how we're going to behave while we achieve those goals failure to reach a

00:12:48.500 goal we'll re-attack it tomorrow failure to reach a standard that carries a consequence because

00:12:53.380 standards are just about behaviors being selfless that doesn't require my son axel to have talent

00:13:02.020 scoring 20 points in a game that requires some level of talent but putting the team first that's just a

00:13:08.320 choice he has to make well if you don't score 20 we'll re-attack it tomorrow if that's a goal for

00:13:14.280 you if you're choosing not if you're choosing to be selfish okay well then there's going to be a

00:13:20.040 consequence for that because you chose to be selfish okay so your core value your standards come from your

00:13:28.760 core values let's start here like how do you figure out what your core values are like is is is it yeah

00:13:34.980 that i can see something going on there because you read a lot of business books about

00:13:38.800 management's like a mission statement here are your core values and a lot of times you end up

00:13:43.100 picking core values that are more like window dressing right it's like what you'd like to be

00:13:47.500 or like what you'd like others to think you have but aren't really core values so how do you ensure

00:13:51.720 that your core values are actually your core values yeah brett thank you so much for asking that

00:13:57.040 question i i can't even tell you how often we're walking into a lobby of a client a new client and the

00:14:05.240 first thing that we see are posters or signs up of their a 14 core values but by definition core

00:14:16.420 cannot mean 14 number one number two

00:14:21.360 we then companies then define those core values to look like a wine reading list

00:14:30.860 organizations try to be everything to everybody instead determine what your non-negotiables are

00:14:41.500 that's core the non-negotiables those non-negotiables are core values what are our non-negotiables as a

00:14:49.820 team what it means to be us three if you want to argue four things okay argue four realize there

00:14:59.240 is a reason why there are three fire teams in every squad three squads in every platoon three platoons

00:15:05.240 in every company three companies in every battalion you get the point our ability to control but more

00:15:13.560 importantly remember three groups of three is higher than four so the way we can determine what those

00:15:23.740 core values are by and large we are who we are by the age of nine and definitely set by the age of 12

00:15:32.920 now yes there's huge great life cataclysmic events that happen to some individuals where people change

00:15:40.520 dramatically after that but by and large we are who we are by the age of nine and definitely by the age

00:15:49.920 of 12 so determine your core values do everything you possibly can to determine what they are what it

00:15:57.740 means to be us or in the leader's case what it means to be you because what it means to be you

00:16:04.580 ultimately is the core values of your organization thankfully once you do it it's not going to change

00:16:11.800 every single year you are who you are by the age of nine and definitely by the age of 12 how can you do

00:16:18.300 it there's a couple different ways we provide one of those ways in our book the program there's a list of

00:16:26.860 40 different core values what we suggest you do is just to take a look at that page give yourself five

00:16:36.060 minutes to select the 10 values that mean the most to you then at the end of those five minutes then

00:16:44.280 just stay focused on your list of 10 give yourself one minute to get rid of five of them and make sure

00:16:51.520 you put yourself on the clock because you want to feel pressure while you're doing it then give yourself

00:16:56.480 10 seconds at the end of that minute give yourself 10 seconds and at the end of that 10 seconds when

00:17:02.920 the buzzer goes off you should have just your top three then then take a few moments look at the your

00:17:10.220 top three should three be four should four be three should you switch the order of them that's one of the

00:17:18.360 ways to do it another way is to simply spend as much time as you possibly can thinking about who you

00:17:27.680 are what are your greatest strengths ask ask the people who know you the best who love you the most

00:17:35.940 maybe it's a parent a spouse a business partner a coat uh you know your executive team and just write

00:17:44.680 down what you think it means to be you and then have other people give you feedback see if they agree

00:17:50.340 with you or not those are a few ways to determine what our core values are but remember that our mission

00:18:00.240 your organization's mission can and probably will change who you are doesn't the standards that

00:18:10.600 reinforce those core values on a day-to-day basis it's simply not enough brett to say as i as i've

00:18:16.800 been using the example of the program selfless tough and discipline i mean how how often do we hear

00:18:22.860 companies say oh we're a family having family written on a t-shirt does not make you a family it means you

00:18:30.380 have a t-shirt that has family written on it that's true for any core value your culture is not what you

00:18:37.080 have written on a poster or sign or a t-shirt your culture is who you are every day we have to

00:18:44.680 first determine what our core values are the leader does that but then we have to determine what the

00:18:52.300 standards are that we are going to reinforce those core values on a daily basis depending on the team and

00:18:58.980 a host of other factors that could be the leader the executive team the coaching staff and what we

00:19:04.720 suggest is the team itself or at least the warriors on that team determining what the standards are

00:19:11.660 going to be for the team that reinforce those core values okay so i want to go back to this idea of

00:19:17.040 standards so you okay i like this idea that goals are about performance standards are about behavior your

00:19:22.040 standards come from your core values and you say that standards come with consequences like what are

00:19:28.060 those consequences like it's maybe in your own family or maybe in another organization brett we we

00:19:35.160 constantly hear i mean from may throughout north america not just the u.s throughout north america

00:19:42.700 everybody wants to talk to us about kids these days and and it always sounds like you know the kids these

00:19:50.980 days and there's always these hundreds of negative attributes about the kids these days as we highlight

00:19:58.620 to every single person that talks to us about that stop blaming the kids it's our fault the kids these

00:20:05.880 days are no different than they were when we were the kids these days when our grandparents were the kids

00:20:10.960 these days the kids these days are the same who's different we're different parents are different coaches

00:20:17.060 are different business leaders are different teachers are different that's who's different

00:20:21.640 and how are we different we give again just like when we were the kids these days yes we give our

00:20:28.560 kids lots of goals but but never any standards standards again are behavior based this is how you are

00:20:36.020 expected to behave and if you don't behave this way there are consequences and no it doesn't mean

00:20:44.440 okay well hey you get another try at it or hey in three two one no we have goals and we have standards

00:20:53.600 this is what you're expected to perform this is how you're expected to behave if you can't do it

00:20:59.040 then again there's consequences by the same token if you do achieve what you're supposed to achieve

00:21:06.660 but at the same but more importantly behave this way there will be benefits for you

00:21:14.140 all of us perform best within that structure it's it's our job as parents coaches teachers business

00:21:21.580 leaders to provide that structure to the kids these days we don't we don't and it starts with parents

00:21:27.960 parents are or and i don't want to say this you know general use as as a generalization because god

00:21:33.880 i have the privilege of coaching a couple sports that my son plays and by and large i love the kids and

00:21:40.960 by and large i love their parents as well but there are numerous parents that care more about being

00:21:48.720 good friends with their kid than they do about being mom and dad i want to have the absolute best

00:21:55.580 relationship i possibly can with both of my children that relationship is called dad not friend

00:22:03.220 maybe over time over years it will evolve into that but not now they've got enough friends they've got

00:22:12.080 one dad and one mom too but we're talking about myself here so they've got one dad and i'm going to

00:22:18.440 fill that role for them and as their dad i'm going to give them kudos when they're behaving the way

00:22:24.880 they're supposed to behave and there will be consequences when they don't behave the way they're supposed to

00:22:30.580 behave well i think one of the tricky things about standards and i think why people parents teachers

00:22:35.800 organizations like to talk about goals is because with goals it's they're easy to track right you

00:22:41.100 either you know you you either reach the goal or increase the percentage right there's a number you

00:22:45.880 can attach to it standards with around behavior it's a little trickier sometimes right like how do you

00:22:51.740 tell like your son your old son's like be tough well how do you know he was tough when you're not with

00:22:57.220 them all the day and like you know what what situation did he show toughness like how do you

00:23:01.880 do that evaluation with either a family member or even a member on your team on whether they're

00:23:06.800 meeting that standard that might be a little more squidgy than say a hard line goal great question

00:23:12.560 great question let's talk about selfless before practice whatever the sport we talk about selfless

00:23:22.440 tough and disciplined at the end of practice at the end of the game at the end of a game let's use

00:23:28.060 game because boy we i've got a lot of examples of this i've seen it personally countless times

00:23:33.000 children come off the playing field as soon as they come off the playing field parents are saying oh my

00:23:39.040 god that was an amazing goal that you had it was just awesome okay what do you think your child

00:23:46.140 believes you value yeah goal scoring that that's what your child believes you value instead at the

00:23:54.760 end of the game when axel comes off the field we talk about what are we supposed to be out there

00:24:00.080 today ax selfless tough and disciplined daddy all right what does selfless mean it means we put the

00:24:04.680 team first did you today i think i did dad okay tell me how did you put him first well when i came to

00:24:10.840 the sideline i i you know when you subbed me out i didn't pout about it i i came to the sideline and i

00:24:18.700 and i cheered for my teammates when i was on the sideline you did great great that's how we reinforce

00:24:28.280 standards to just keep talking about you as long as you keep talking about the standard over and over

00:24:33.140 and you just reinforce it over and over that that's right and i feel that instead of having very you know

00:24:39.360 when we work with organizations i'll use you know companies or athletic teams regardless their

00:24:44.960 standards initially tend to be pretty nebulous well we're going to give a hundred percent every day

00:24:52.920 well what does that mean i mean i i can if i show up to your practice i might think oh hey i think

00:25:01.200 they're giving a hundred percent another guy comes up and looks at practice and goes oh my god those guys

00:25:06.020 are playing so soft today a hundred percent that that that's that's pretty wishy-washy what we say

00:25:14.040 is with our standards make them like your goals make them quantifiable meaning tough you you mentioned

00:25:24.120 tough okay maybe a standard that reinforces toughness is we dive after every loose ball okay so then if

00:25:34.100 there's a loose ball and we don't have the entire team on the floor diving for it okay guys we're not

00:25:39.880 we're not being tough here here look at the video we say that the way we prove our toughness our standard

00:25:44.840 to reinforce toughness is we dive for loose balls did we no okay then we're not being tough all right so

00:25:52.360 let's kind of recap here so organization needs core values from those core values come standards which are

00:25:59.300 based on behavior you see yes you do set goals those are based on performance but like the goals

00:26:03.820 kind of take care of themselves as long as you are doing the the standards right you can that that's

00:26:10.320 what you got this reminds me of a bill walsh right in his book uh the score takes care of itself you

00:26:15.200 this idea it's like you just focus on these you know points of excellence as long as we do these

00:26:19.580 things like the score is going to take care of itself it'll be fine that's right and and we look we do

00:26:26.080 talk about goal setting in in our book but the truth is we just have never seen 12 years we've

00:26:31.920 never worked with a team that doesn't have goals i mean 100 of the time every single team we work

00:26:38.200 with has goals already and yes goals are important it helps us win games but standards reinforce our

00:26:47.280 core values and our core values define our culture it's our culture that allows us to consistently

00:26:55.020 compete for championships on whatever our chosen battlefield may be so in order to reinforce

00:27:01.480 these standards these core values the team members of the team have to hold each other accountable

00:27:07.360 but as you hide in the book and i've seen this in my own experience being parts of different teams

00:27:12.560 people are afraid of holding other people accountable why do you think that is well i think there's a

00:27:19.240 number of different reasons for it but a couple brett is number one poorly defined standards to begin with

00:27:27.980 that what we suggest to teams now look this doesn't work in depending on age and a number of different

00:27:37.060 factors you you have to kind of massage this but as an example to the extent that you can

00:27:44.440 let the team the leader determines what our core values are to the extent that you are able let the

00:27:51.820 team determine the standards that reinforce those core values let let the warriors on the team

00:27:57.660 determine these are the standards that i'm gonna meet and that i'm gonna hold my teammates to

00:28:05.060 and then let them determine the standards if they're a warrior warriors want high standards

00:28:11.340 and they want to be held to those high standards by definition by our definition of what a warrior is

00:28:18.260 they want high standards and they want to be held to those high standards they want to have a consequence

00:28:23.980 if they don't achieve them and they want a benefit if they do now let them determine the standards

00:28:30.860 That alone provides ownership. Therefore, it's not the leader's standards. It's the team standards. They own those. We always take care of things that we own better than things that we rent. Start with it, number one.

00:28:46.880 Number two, have very, as I said earlier, have very quantifiable standards. Not, we're going to give 100%. No, if your core value is toughness, then, hey, we dive for every loose ball. Okay, because it's very quantifiable, then if I see a teammate who's not diving for a loose ball, and I say, hey, man, we got to dive for that.

00:29:08.360 Whether you're out there playing or you're on the bench, you can say, hey, man, you got to dive for that. And there's no personal conflict of, well, hey, man, you got to give 100%. Well, dude, I am giving 100%. Well, I don't think you are. Well, yeah, but I am. No, no, no.

00:29:24.480 The standard is dive for a loose ball. Did you dive? No? Okay, then you got to dive. So those things right there should help the issue of or the challenge people have of holding each other accountable, number one.

00:29:40.280 Number two, this gets back to as, you know, the sooner you can impart this, if you're a parent, do it as young as possible. If you're a teacher, start to talk to your students about this. Coaches, same. Is, you know, in this Judeo-Christian Western civilization that we grow up in, we are taught, hey, be nice. Be nice. And we agree with that. We should be nice. We should be nice to everyone.

00:30:08.440 But don't confuse nice with kind. Nice is saying hello. Being truly a kind person, that requires sacrifice. We should be both nice and kind. It's going to be uncomfortable to hold a teammate accountable on whatever the team you're talking about that you're on.

00:30:29.320 But because it is uncomfortable, by holding my teammate accountable, what I'm saying is, my teammate being the best that they can be, that is more important to me than my comfort.

00:30:44.260 I'm willing to be uncomfortable if it helps my teammate get better.

00:30:50.760 As we discuss at length, don't ever confuse nice with kind or friend with teammate.

00:30:57.640 Friends are nice people that you're going to the movies with.

00:31:02.200 Teammates are kind that you're willing to go to battle with.

00:31:05.280 It's great to be friends on any team until being a good friend becomes more important than being a great teammate.

00:31:14.080 Then there's an issue.

00:31:15.600 We should all strive to be great teammates first.

00:31:19.480 And great teammates are kind.

00:31:21.540 And kind people sacrifice for each other.

00:31:24.080 And that means holding each other accountable.

00:31:28.880 Yeah, that distinction really stood out to me.

00:31:30.620 And I've been thinking a lot about it since I read it.

00:31:33.140 Because, yeah, like you said, niceness is usually about comfort.

00:31:35.360 It's about your comfort and the comfort of the other person, making sure everyone feels good.

00:31:39.840 But kindness is about making people better.

00:31:42.920 And that's often, usually, uncomfortable.

00:31:46.500 100%.

00:31:46.900 And then the other part of this accountability aspect that you talk about and you see in organizations is,

00:31:54.080 well, instead of holding people actively accountable, instead of saying to someone,

00:31:57.120 hey, you're not going 100%, what a lot of people do is, well, I'm just going to lead by example.

00:32:03.360 I'll show people and that will be enough.

00:32:05.780 But you think that's not enough.

00:32:07.220 Why?

00:32:07.760 It's nowhere near enough.

00:32:09.140 And every time we hear from any leader, please stop saying it.

00:32:14.380 You're lying to yourself.

00:32:16.100 You're lying to your teammates.

00:32:18.460 Boy, that person leads by example.

00:32:20.980 Typically, it's somebody who prepares as best as they can.

00:32:25.220 Right?

00:32:25.700 For athletes, they get as bigger, faster, stronger as they can in the offseason.

00:32:29.400 For corporate teams.

00:32:31.780 Man, that guy is so prepared.

00:32:33.300 You know, guy, girl, I'm using the universal term guy here.

00:32:36.180 But, you know, boy, that guy is so prepared every day that they show up.

00:32:40.620 He was so prepared.

00:32:41.740 She was so prepared for that meeting.

00:32:43.860 They prepare at superhuman levels.

00:32:46.080 They give 100% every single day.

00:32:48.780 And when it's their time to perform, they perform.

00:32:51.500 But they're just kind of quiet.

00:32:52.600 They don't say anything to anybody.

00:32:53.940 They lead by example.

00:32:56.120 We take exception to that term 100% of the time.

00:33:00.980 Every single event that we work or every single client whom we're privileged to work with and we hear that, we say, stop saying it.

00:33:09.680 Please.

00:33:10.440 Because those things are not leading by example.

00:33:13.580 Those things are called setting the example.

00:33:15.860 And great teammates set the example.

00:33:18.160 We've got to be thumb guys first.

00:33:20.120 We've got to meet the standards of the organization first.

00:33:23.900 It's the first standard of being a great teammate.

00:33:26.380 But then great teammates hold their teammates accountable to achieving that same high standard.

00:33:32.620 Usually, leaders think back to who's a great captain that we had.

00:33:38.500 Who was somebody that really influenced me?

00:33:41.200 Well, if you yourself are a really hardworking person and you had a captain or a director of sales who worked incredibly hard and you say, oh, man, that guy, he makes me work even harder.

00:33:59.360 Yeah, that's because you're already a hard worker.

00:34:02.620 Lions just, I mean, this is in nature.

00:34:05.920 Lions hang out with lions and zebras hang out with zebras.

00:34:08.620 So if you're a hard worker and you happen to have a leader who's also a hard worker, yeah, you're going to work hard.

00:34:14.320 Maybe even you work a little bit harder.

00:34:16.200 But that's because at the heart of it, you are a hard worker.

00:34:19.620 Yeah, but leadership is not about that.

00:34:21.360 That, it's leadership is can you get everybody to work hard and simply by you yourself working harder, think of any team you've ever been on that because the leader works hard, every single member of the team worked hard just because of it.

00:34:41.000 You can't think of an example of it.

00:34:43.480 None of us have ever been on teams like that.

00:34:45.340 There's always been somebody who's not working hard.

00:34:48.380 Well, to effectively lead them, to challenge them, to work harder, we've got to be able to effectively communicate as leaders.

00:34:57.880 So this is part of being a team.

00:34:59.260 So don't just sit quietly, lead.

00:35:00.980 That's just a given.

00:35:02.060 You have to set the example, set the standard, live the standard.

00:35:06.640 But then if you see other members on your team not living up to that standard, you have to actively hold them accountable.

00:35:14.020 That's right.

00:35:14.440 And Brett, think about, we ask young people this constantly.

00:35:22.240 We'll take the guy on the team that the coach tells us leads by example.

00:35:26.460 He's just kind of quiet.

00:35:27.240 He doesn't say anything.

00:35:28.560 We ask him all the time. 0.68

00:35:31.040 Hey, in high school, were you a screw up? 0.96

00:35:35.860 Did you just kind of slime through everything?

00:35:38.380 Not touch the line, do fewer reps, miss workouts? 0.70

00:35:43.760 No, no, no.

00:35:45.520 No, you weren't.

00:35:47.340 How about in grade school, playing Pop Warner? 0.99

00:35:50.260 A scumbag back then, not do anything? 0.99

00:35:52.900 Bad teammate? 1.00

00:35:55.440 No, no.

00:35:56.740 Yeah, right.

00:35:59.060 You're probably the hardest worker out there, right?

00:36:00.980 Yeah, I was.

00:36:02.720 That's right.

00:36:03.840 Because you're a hard worker.

00:36:05.540 That's who you are.

00:36:06.440 So working hard, even at superhuman levels, that's not a sacrifice for you.

00:36:13.000 It's not a sacrifice.

00:36:14.520 You're doing what you're good at.

00:36:16.260 You're inside your comfort zone, even though most people might look at it from the outside

00:36:20.060 and be like, oh my God, look at that guy's work rate.

00:36:24.720 Yeah, maybe so.

00:36:25.420 But you're still inside your comfort zone.

00:36:27.120 You're doing the things that you like to do.

00:36:29.440 It doesn't require a sacrifice for you because it's who you are.

00:36:32.980 Yeah, we've got to sacrifice.

00:36:34.200 Sacrifice, great teammates, sacrifice.

00:36:37.200 And to sacrifice, you have to work hard, still meet the standards, but then hold our teammates

00:36:42.160 to meeting that standard too.

00:36:43.680 Brett, the thing I would highlight though to you, and I can hear myself saying it, and

00:36:46.780 it's something I've got to continuously remind myself as a leader, is when we talk about meet

00:36:52.900 the standard and hold our teammates accountable to achieving it too, accountability always has

00:36:57.900 such a negative tone in our society.

00:37:01.700 And it shouldn't.

00:37:03.080 It shouldn't.

00:37:04.460 Accountability should be positive, even maybe even more so than negative.

00:37:09.500 Yes, if somebody, hey, we've got to touch the line.

00:37:12.300 Okay, somebody doesn't touch the line.

00:37:14.260 Yes, hold them accountable.

00:37:15.240 Hey man, you got to run back and hit the line.

00:37:17.500 Right?

00:37:17.620 Hey, we're supposed to make 30 sales cold calls today.

00:37:20.380 Somebody doesn't make 30 calls.

00:37:22.320 Hey, dude, you had 29.

00:37:24.580 The standard is 30 here.

00:37:26.920 Make 30.

00:37:27.900 Yes, 100%.

00:37:28.920 When people aren't meeting the standard, hold them accountable.

00:37:32.180 As teammates and as leaders, look, look, find examples of teammates who are meeting the

00:37:40.360 standard and hold them accountable for that as well.

00:37:43.560 Hey man, that was awesome.

00:37:44.700 You had a great workout today.

00:37:46.320 We say we're supposed to touch the line every time you did it every single time.

00:37:50.320 Hey, we say we're supposed to die for loose balls out here. 0.84

00:37:52.780 Look at your uniform.

00:37:54.020 You're covered in grass stains from or, or, or raspberries from diving on a basketball court.

00:37:59.420 You're covered in them, man.

00:38:01.380 That's awesome.

00:38:02.540 That's Hey guys, look at so-and-so.

00:38:05.500 That's what we mean by tough.

00:38:08.060 Look.

00:38:09.040 Yes.

00:38:09.540 If people aren't going to meet the standard, hold them accountable.

00:38:11.700 It's going to help you get to where we want to get to quicker.

00:38:17.140 As important is holding people accountable when they are meeting the standards.

00:38:22.740 No, I think that's an important point.

00:38:24.280 I, it's that idea with our sort of philosophy of parenting is, you know, catch your kids doing

00:38:28.860 something good.

00:38:29.540 Cause it's so easy as a parent, always honing in on the things they're screwing up at,

00:38:33.540 but you have to reinforce when they actually are doing something good and give them credit

00:38:38.840 when they do Brett as parents.

00:38:41.740 Right.

00:38:42.020 And, and again, I get back to the idea about, I'm going to be my son and daughter.

00:38:47.120 I'm going to be their dad, not their friend.

00:38:51.360 I must love up on my children.

00:38:54.460 I mean, I don't, they're eight and two and a half.

00:38:57.460 The number of kisses I've put on them, or I've got to be in the millions already.

00:39:01.660 I mean, that, that idea about being tough is nothing to do with love.

00:39:07.860 We, we show how much we love each other.

00:39:11.220 Show me a team that holds each other accountable.

00:39:13.260 I'll show you a team that loves each other, or at least cares deeply.

00:39:17.560 But if all it is, is always negative, people are going to tune you out.

00:39:22.220 It's just not going to mean that much by the same token.

00:39:25.240 If the only thing you're ever saying is, Oh, Hey, that's a great job.

00:39:28.980 Oh my God, you're the greatest.

00:39:30.380 Oh yeah.

00:39:30.820 That's, that's the best.

00:39:32.280 Yeah.

00:39:32.420 Guess what?

00:39:32.720 You get tuned out eventually for that too.

00:39:35.100 So let's shift gears.

00:39:36.480 So we've kind of recap here.

00:39:37.500 We've talked about core values.

00:39:38.760 You set standards that reinforce the core values.

00:39:41.600 Team members hold each other accountable because they're kind, not nice.

00:39:46.100 I mean, they're, they're nice, but you always choose kindness over nices when holding your 1.00

00:39:49.180 team members' accountability and making them better.

00:39:51.780 Let's shift role to the role of a team leader.

00:39:54.640 What is the role of a leader of a team?

00:39:58.200 What's their job?

00:39:59.760 Yeah.

00:39:59.980 First and foremost, a leader accomplishes the mission by that.

00:40:05.840 I mean, a leader ensures the team accomplishes the mission.

00:40:08.820 A leader isn't necessarily the first one across the finish line, the leader or great leaders,

00:40:14.700 at least ensures their team gets across the finish line first.

00:40:18.200 Now they do so honorably with high integrity.

00:40:21.660 I know that's not always the case, but rather than focus on those individuals who act with

00:40:29.300 a lack of integrity or a lack of honor, we focus on those that do because there's many

00:40:34.360 more examples of that.

00:40:35.800 Plus, as a leader, if you are accomplishing the mission, but doing so with a lack of integrity

00:40:40.740 or dishonorably, I don't care who you are.

00:40:44.340 It will catch up to you eventually.

00:40:46.960 Leaders accomplish the mission and they take care of their teammates.

00:40:51.660 And again, that could mean, it means oftentimes doing uncomfortable things, right?

00:40:56.140 Having to tell someone they're not living up to a standard.

00:40:58.800 Or it might mean firing somebody, right?

00:41:01.460 Because that's, that's what's good for the team.

00:41:03.220 For me, it's challenging for me, Brett, I don't use, we don't, in our family, it's one

00:41:08.580 of the things we talk about at the program, we talk about, we don't, I discuss it in the

00:41:13.040 book.

00:41:13.460 I, we don't use the term hard.

00:41:15.520 I tell everybody that I've done one hard thing in my life.

00:41:19.080 When I was an officer in the Marine Corps, my commanding officer approached me.

00:41:23.480 He asked me if I could do him a favor.

00:41:25.560 What he was going to ask me, you can't be ordered to do.

00:41:28.540 You have to volunteer for it.

00:41:30.220 Well, I agreed and then that day, I drove home from work immediately, put on my dress

00:41:35.620 blue uniform, drove out to a family's home, drove up their driveway, parked, walked up

00:41:42.300 their front stairway and steps, stood in front of their door and took a deep breath and then

00:41:47.940 rang the doorbell.

00:41:49.520 And I had to stand there and wait for the door to be opened so that when it was opened

00:41:54.860 by a mom, I could tell her that her son had just died in Iraq.

00:42:02.780 That's the only thing in my life that I've ever done.

00:42:06.640 That's hard.

00:42:08.060 And I've climbed Mount Everest.

00:42:10.080 I've competed in and completed eight Ironmans.

00:42:12.580 I've been in special operations.

00:42:16.260 What we do on a day-to-day basis in our life is challenging.

00:42:21.980 And warriors love a challenge.

00:42:23.960 We want to be challenged.

00:42:26.400 But by human nature, we just want to get through the things that are hard.

00:42:31.080 Words are important because our thoughts determine our words and our words determine our actions.

00:42:37.860 I don't have hard conversations.

00:42:39.760 I have challenging conversations.

00:42:41.900 I don't have hard days.

00:42:43.240 I have challenging days.

00:42:44.780 If people want to talk about the death of a loved one, a sick child, spouse, and you want

00:42:52.340 to call those things hard, you'll never get an argument out of myself or anybody at the

00:42:57.140 program.

00:42:58.020 But we don't have hard conversations.

00:43:00.060 We don't have hard meetings.

00:43:01.200 We just have challenging meetings.

00:43:02.760 We have challenging conversations.

00:43:04.320 As a leader, for me, those conversations are very challenging.

00:43:11.500 I don't like holding people accountable if they're not meeting the standard.

00:43:15.720 God, I lose sleep over it.

00:43:18.560 Yeah, but if it's in the team's best interest, I have to.

00:43:22.320 I have to have that conversation because ultimately, as a leader, you are based, your performance

00:43:30.880 is based on the performance of the team, not any one individual.

00:43:36.020 Don't ever forget it.

00:43:38.260 So another thing that a leader needs to do to ensure that the mission is accomplished

00:43:44.120 and that their team is taken care of, team first, is they have to work hard themselves

00:43:48.600 but also encourage others in the organization to work hard.

00:43:51.720 But as you talk about in the book, everyone says that, right?

00:43:54.800 Like every motivational book says you got to work hard.

00:43:57.620 You see it on Instagram with the hashtags, hard work, hustle.

00:44:01.460 You guys in the program have a different idea of what it means to work hard or what hard work

00:44:06.520 is.

00:44:06.740 What is that?

00:44:07.840 That's right.

00:44:08.820 It's our trademark saying, hard work is not what we do during our normal business hours.

00:44:14.880 Hard work is not what we do during normal practice hours.

00:44:18.020 Hard work is one more.

00:44:20.940 And we have to figure out what our one more is as an individual and as a team and make

00:44:25.660 a commitment to doing it each and every single day.

00:44:28.540 Take a team.

00:44:30.520 You ask any team in America, athletic team in America, hey, was practice challenging today?

00:44:35.200 Okay.

00:44:35.960 Maybe there are teams that say, yeah, no, it was pretty cool.

00:44:39.800 We just went out there and chucked the ball around a little bit.

00:44:41.920 Okay.

00:44:42.160 But that's going to be a bad team.

00:44:43.660 I'm talking about good teams.

00:44:46.140 Teams that are standing in the way of us and getting to where we want to get to, getting

00:44:51.080 to the mountaintop.

00:44:52.100 Well, those teams, when they show up at 3.30 in the afternoon for practice, guess what?

00:44:58.700 Their coaches are going to make that practice very challenging.

00:45:02.980 If it wasn't challenging, it wouldn't be a very good team.

00:45:07.480 Everybody gives great effort between 3.30 and 6 o'clock.

00:45:11.980 Every athletic team, good team, is giving great effort between 3.30 in the afternoon and 6

00:45:17.580 o'clock at night.

00:45:18.760 Every team is.

00:45:19.880 Giving great effort is not hard work.

00:45:22.580 Hard work is do it.

00:45:24.940 Give great effort.

00:45:26.460 And then do one more.

00:45:27.640 Think about that thing that might be a negative in your game.

00:45:33.160 Maybe you fall short a little bit.

00:45:34.840 I don't go left as well as I go right.

00:45:38.380 My crossover is good, but I'm not good off ball.

00:45:43.320 Figure out what your one more is, what that discrepancy is, that deficiency is.

00:45:48.780 And then, I don't know, spend three minutes a day addressing it.

00:45:52.240 Maybe it's six minutes after practice.

00:45:53.820 Before the day starts, maybe it's at lunchtime.

00:45:57.560 Instead, during your one-hour break, instead, give five minutes.

00:46:01.320 Do your one more.

00:46:02.460 Maybe it's five minutes addressing that deficiency.

00:46:05.840 Now, we got to do it every single day because everything we do in life is habit forming.

00:46:10.460 But those one mores add up.

00:46:12.720 How do you do that with your kids?

00:46:14.680 What does one more look like in your family?

00:46:16.520 I'm very fortunate that I have a great wife who's my partner, who's my teammate.

00:46:29.420 And for our children, they're very fortunate that they have a mom and a dad.

00:46:35.380 Too much of dad or mom.

00:46:39.420 They would be completely different people than what they are right now.

00:46:42.580 You know, as their dad, I think about myself now at 47 years old, and I look at what I do for my one more every day.

00:46:50.360 So, you want to think, well, that's what I did when I was eight.

00:46:53.480 No, it's not.

00:46:54.560 No, it's not.

00:46:55.940 We're all a sum of our experiences, as I said earlier.

00:47:00.640 All of us are.

00:47:01.580 So, as we look at our children, as they're growing up, as we're raising them, what we try to do as a family, and my wife tempers this with me, is we use wrestling practice as an example.

00:47:19.500 Axel does wrestling practice.

00:47:21.480 At the end of wrestling practice, one of the older kids, I ask Axel and this older kid, hey, Ax, how about you just practice for five minutes?

00:47:32.860 Here, I'm going to start my watch right now, buddy.

00:47:35.040 Five minutes.

00:47:36.180 Just practice for an extra five minutes.

00:47:38.540 And then at the end of five minutes, and this is something I've had to work on, because see, for myself, when five minutes, when I get to the five-minute mark, I go, okay, now I'm going to do six minutes.

00:47:46.300 And then the next time I go out there, it's six minutes, and I go, okay, well, now I'm going to do seven, and I'm going to do eight, and it's always, it's never good enough.

00:47:54.900 I have to temper that with my own children, because that can beat people down.

00:47:58.500 I have to temper that with my company, with my coworkers, my teammates at the program, is determine what our one more is.

00:48:08.320 Communicate it.

00:48:09.240 Hey, at the end of practice, what do you think, Ax?

00:48:11.680 How much extra?

00:48:12.820 We're going to do something, okay, buddy?

00:48:14.720 That's going to be a non-negotiable.

00:48:16.700 How long extra do you want to work at the end of practice?

00:48:20.080 Every practice.

00:48:21.760 Is it one minute?

00:48:22.800 Is it two minutes?

00:48:23.480 Is it three minutes?

00:48:24.460 And if he said, Daddy, it's going to be one minute, great, great.

00:48:31.480 Let's do one minute, but let's make it a great minute, and we're going to do it every single time.

00:48:36.920 And then when that minute extra just becomes the expectation, then challenge him again.

00:48:45.400 Ax, is it still one minute good?

00:48:47.580 Do you want to go to two minutes?

00:48:49.400 Talk about the importance of one minute going to two minutes.

00:48:53.520 But get to the point where one minute becomes a habit before you go to two minutes.

00:48:58.720 And when they give one minute, even if your child has only, at the end of practice, only gives one more minute on top of their very challenging practice,

00:49:10.120 make sure you highlight to them just how proud you are that they gave that minute, that they consistently give that minute.

00:49:16.920 Because the truth is, Brett, most people, not kids, most people won't.

00:49:24.200 Most people, at five o'clock when the bell rings, they grab their coat and they go out the door.

00:49:29.260 That idea of doing one more has nothing to do with talent at all.

00:49:34.600 Everybody knows it.

00:49:35.860 It's just that little bit extra that we have to commit to doing every single day that adds up to ends up,

00:49:42.020 that will end up making us the most successful salesperson.

00:49:45.080 In my child's case, the most successful wrestler.

00:49:48.540 Eventually, and still, most people will never do it.

00:49:51.500 So when you have a child, getting back to your question, who says,

00:49:56.560 Daddy, I just want to do one minute extra at the end of every practice, and they actually do it,

00:50:02.000 make a big deal about it.

00:50:04.000 Because it's more than most people ever will.

00:50:06.620 One thing that I've been thinking about as I've been listening to this stuff,

00:50:09.460 this stuff, it's all very, it's, a lot of it's very simple.

00:50:12.700 It's things you've heard growing up, but people often give excuses as to why they don't execute on it.

00:50:19.780 But in your work with organizations and leaders,

00:50:24.460 what are the most common excuses you see people from putting the stuff into practice?

00:50:29.620 As we challenge, when we talk about having a no-excuse culture, where it starts,

00:50:38.360 and this gets back to accountability, where we say, where does accountability go?

00:50:44.540 We have such a difficult time with teammates holding other teammates accountable.

00:50:47.940 Well, the root cause of that is because there's a lack of personal accountability.

00:50:53.680 If I tell this person to work harder, that means I have to be working as hard as possible.

00:51:00.220 Or they are going to blow me off.

00:51:03.700 And by the way, they should.

00:51:05.160 They should blow you off if you yourself aren't doing it too.

00:51:08.160 But we don't have great personal accountability.

00:51:12.080 And instead, we make excuses for why we're not doing what we know we're supposed to be doing.

00:51:18.540 What we challenge people on, a thought, a suggestion that we give them,

00:51:25.980 is don't ever use kids or time as an excuse.

00:51:33.740 Just get rid of those right now.

00:51:35.680 Don't ever say them ever again that, I ran out of time, I didn't have time, I didn't.

00:51:42.760 You cannot use time as an excuse ever again.

00:51:46.400 Just don't do it.

00:51:48.920 Try to figure out a different.

00:51:52.380 I don't even care if you give an excuse, but don't make it time.

00:51:56.160 And for parents, stop blaming your kids as to why you're doing or not doing something.

00:52:02.800 Stop.

00:52:03.180 Just do those two things.

00:52:06.320 Make it a habit.

00:52:08.800 And again, everything we do in life is habit forming, so we have to make it a habit.

00:52:12.680 And if we can just get rid of those, we will end up holding our own selves at a much higher level of personal accountability.

00:52:21.820 Another tricky thing with excuses, though.

00:52:23.100 Maybe you don't make excuses for yourself, but other people make excuses for you.

00:52:27.160 How do you overcome that?

00:52:30.460 Yeah.

00:52:30.760 In our book, the way we wrote the book was really seven sections.

00:52:36.940 And those seven sections represent the seven keys for creating and sustaining a world-class team.

00:52:43.060 And one of those seven keys is no excuses.

00:52:48.080 And what we do in every section is we take one of our teammates at the program.

00:52:52.120 We use their, quote-unquote, their story as the thread that holds that entire section together.

00:53:01.260 Our teammate, Sam Silla, we use his story for the no excuses section.

00:53:08.540 Sam Silla was in the Army, deployed to Iraq.

00:53:13.700 An IED exploded near him.

00:53:16.900 Ultimately, after more than 50 surgeries, Sam lost his right arm.

00:53:22.160 Going through the surgeries, well, the recovery, the surgeries again and again and again.

00:53:30.120 We tell a story about Sam being at a Chinese restaurant where there's a hibachi stove.

00:53:35.800 All of a sudden, his wife can smell flesh burning.

00:53:38.880 Sam can't feel his hand.

00:53:40.660 His finger has hit the hibachi. 0.65

00:53:42.100 He can't feel his hand.

00:53:44.260 We tell those stories.

00:53:46.380 We tell Sam's story, ultimately, with him losing his right arm.

00:53:50.700 And along the way, as Sam is wallowing in grief and self-pity on a cocktail of painkillers,

00:54:00.080 and he's surrounded by the people who love him the most, saying,

00:54:04.340 oh, but he lost his arm.

00:54:05.680 He got blown up.

00:54:06.680 God, he was in Iraq when it happened.

00:54:08.420 Oh, boy, this guy, this is what happened to Sam.

00:54:12.500 And it comes from a good place.

00:54:14.540 It's coming from people who love us dearly.

00:54:17.780 Surround.

00:54:18.280 We have to, if we're going to get, be the best versions of ourself, not only can we not

00:54:24.120 make excuses, but surround yourself with people who don't make excuses for you.

00:54:29.940 It makes it too difficult.

00:54:33.220 Those people that are making excuses, although it may be coming from a good place, they're

00:54:38.480 making it too easy for us to accept those excuses.

00:54:41.760 Instead, surround yourself with great, this gets back to friend or teammate.

00:54:46.140 Instead, surround yourself with great teammates who set high standards and then demand them

00:54:51.200 out of you, regardless of whether you have two arms or one, regardless of the challenges

00:54:58.500 that you were faced.

00:55:00.560 Well, Eric, this has been a great conversation.

00:55:02.280 Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work with the program?

00:55:05.280 So yeah, thanks so much, Brett.

00:55:06.980 I really enjoyed it.

00:55:07.980 And I hope your listeners find it interesting and also applicable in their own lives.

00:55:13.440 But thanks for giving me the opportunity to speak with you.

00:55:17.280 To find out more about the program and to order the program book, recently released program

00:55:24.160 book, people can go to our website at theprogram.org.

00:55:29.640 Awesome.

00:55:30.200 Well, Eric Kapitulik, thanks so much for your time.

00:55:31.900 It's been a pleasure.

00:55:33.240 Brett, thank you.

00:55:33.920 Likewise.

00:55:34.360 Really appreciate it.

00:55:36.040 My guest here is Eric Kapitulik.

00:55:37.280 He's the co-author of the book, The Program.

00:55:39.140 It's available on amazon.com.

00:55:40.520 You can also check out his website, theprogram.org to find more information about his work.

00:55:44.700 Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash the program, where you find links to resources

00:55:48.920 where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:55:50.360 We'll see you next time.

00:56:20.360 And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate it if you take one minute to give us a review

00:56:25.500 on iTunes or Stitcher.

00:56:26.460 It helps out a lot.

00:56:27.200 And if you've done that already, thank you.

00:56:28.620 Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you think will get something

00:56:31.840 out of it.

00:56:32.400 As always, thank you for the continued support.

00:56:33.900 Until next time, this is Brett McKay.

00:56:35.340 Remind you not only to listen to the AOM podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

00:56:50.360 We'll see you next time.

00:56:55.500 We'll see you next time.

The Art of Manliness - November 18, 2019

#561： Get With the Program

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