The Art of Manliness - #575： Counterintuitive Advice on Making Exercise a Sustainable Habit

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. It's a new

00:00:11.380 year and like many people, you may have set a goal to exercise more regularly, but like

00:00:15.620 most people, you've set this goal before only to give up on it after a few weeks. Why is

00:00:20.240 it so hard to make exercise a habit? And more importantly, what can we do to make it stick?

00:00:25.080 My guest today argues that more willpower and discipline isn't the answer. Instead, you

00:00:28.940 need to completely change the way you think about exercise. Her name is Michelle Seeger

00:00:32.820 and she's a behavioral scientist and the author of No Sweat, How the Simple Science of Motivation

00:00:37.060 Can Bring You a Lifetime of Fitness. We begin our conversation discussing Michelle's counterintuitive 0.98

00:00:41.620 finding that common reasons for exercising like losing weight or even getting healthier

00:00:45.380 aren't effective motivations. And she shares research on how our ideas of what exercise

00:00:49.580 should look like as well as the propensity towards an all or nothing mindset also set us

00:00:53.700 up for failure. We then discuss why sheer discipline isn't very effective for staying on track either

00:00:57.780 and why exercise needs to have an immediately positive impact on our lives if we want to

00:01:02.020 stick with it. Michelle and I spend the rest of our conversation discussing the research-backed

00:01:05.460 framework she's developed to help people make exercise a sustainable habit, which includes

00:01:09.180 less emphasis on willpower and more on changing the meaning you lend to physical activity and

00:01:13.840 its priority in your life. After the show's over, check out our show notes at

00:01:16.840 aom.is slash no sweat. All right, Michelle Seeger, welcome to the show.

00:01:31.140 It's great to be here. So you are a behavioral scientist and you spent your career focusing

00:01:37.180 on how to help people make exercise a sustainable habit. And this is a new year, but I know a lot

00:01:43.680 of people are making resolutions to exercise more. And I think people have said that every

00:01:49.300 year and it never works out the way they want to. I mean, do you know, like with your research,

00:01:55.680 what's the success or failure rate of most exercise or health goals that people set for themselves?

00:01:59.800 You know, I've worked with people with exercise goals, with healthy eating goals, with sleep goals,

00:02:07.420 and the statistics I know refer specifically to physical activity. And in general, by six months,

00:02:15.560 most people have discontinued their planned exercise. However, when it comes to resolutions,

00:02:22.740 I'm not an expert on this topic, but my understanding is it's much shorter that people

00:02:28.220 drop their resolutions, probably most people within six to eight weeks.

00:02:33.480 And why do the vast majority of fitness or exercise or healthy eating goals, why do they

00:02:38.040 fail? Why do you think they fail?

00:02:40.040 Are you talking about New Year's specifically?

00:02:41.720 It could be New Year's. It could be just goals that people set for themselves in general.

00:02:46.060 Sure. Well, I think the same thing happens in both cases. And I call it the motivation bubble.

00:02:53.320 When people decide they're going to change their health behavior in some way, whether it's

00:02:58.860 start exercising or changing their eating, it's their commitment and declaration and decisions

00:03:07.840 and purchases and all the things that they do occur in this bubble of high intensity motivation.

00:03:14.820 And it could be because of New Year's resolutions. It could be because their spouse is pestering them. 1.00

00:03:20.100 It could be because their doctor's warning them about prediabetes. Whatever it is,

00:03:25.540 it happens within this high motivation bubble. And as the name implies, we're all really motivated

00:03:34.080 in that bubble. The problem is that once real life hits, whether it's an unexpected urgent work

00:03:42.000 deadline or the call from school saying that your child is sick and you have to pick them up,

00:03:48.200 whatever the unexpected thing is, it puts a hole in the bubble. And often it bursts the bubble because

00:03:56.820 we have this all or nothing thinking when it comes to these behaviors. And so we feel like we've been

00:04:03.820 taught to feel like when we miss one of our planned sessions, when we didn't eat exactly as we had planned

00:04:11.080 to, we messed up. And, you know, it bursts the bubble. Um, and then, you know, all hell breaks

00:04:18.800 loose, if you will. The other thing that happens is that oftentimes we aren't aware of this, but

00:04:27.680 oftentimes our motivation for initiating things, which is part of that kind of gets us in the motivation

00:04:33.960 bubble is actually contaminated. And we're not aware of it. Most, and I would say for most people,

00:04:39.440 our motivation is contaminated when it comes to exercise or changing our dietary habits.

00:04:44.620 And what I mean by that is coming out of self-determination theory, if we're initiating

00:04:51.220 a behavior because we think we should do it, we've bought into the societal norms. We've bought into

00:04:58.380 the notion, oh yeah, I should drop that 20 pounds or, oh yeah, my doctor's right. Or, oh, swimsuit,

00:05:04.920 swimming suit season is coming. I need to look buff or whatever it is.

00:05:10.300 Those motives are often contaminated by a sense of obligation, a sense of I'm not good enough the

00:05:18.660 way I am. And I would say without fail, most of the time that contamination also can be what

00:05:27.400 bursts our motivation bubble because research on dissonance theory shows that we are motivated

00:05:34.060 to actually rebel against the things that we feel take away our freedom. So if we feel like we should

00:05:40.920 exercise, then gosh darn it, I'm not going to. Or if we feel like we shouldn't eat the chocolate

00:05:47.480 cake, gosh darn it, I'm going to. And so that's a big part of the phenomenon too.

00:05:54.180 Well, I thought that was interesting in your book, No Sweat, talking about the goals are

00:05:57.660 contaminated. Even like goals, not even goals like I want to look better in a bathing suit,

00:06:02.160 but like goals like I need to lose some weight so I can get a control of my pre-diabetes or I need to

00:06:07.260 exercise more so I don't have another heart attack. Even those goals can backfire.

00:06:11.980 It's so counterintuitive. You know, when I started researching this topic, you know, which was

00:06:18.820 back in 1994, I had assumed that when people initiated a lifestyle change for health-related

00:06:28.480 reasons, whether it, you know, whether it was for current health or future health, that those were

00:06:34.200 somehow pure motives and they should be really effective because wow, what's more important than

00:06:40.520 our health? And then my colleagues and I conducted a study and we were really surprised to see that

00:06:47.720 people's motivational profile and how much they exercised were very similar to the participants

00:06:55.420 who were exercising to lose weight. And, you know, we already knew from other research that

00:06:59.680 weight, you know, weight loss and body shaping is not a motivation that keeps most people motivated

00:07:06.420 for the long-term. But when we saw health, we were like, oh my gosh, how can that be? You know,

00:07:12.500 I really, I looked at these data with disbelief, but after, you know, looking more into other

00:07:19.740 literatures and thinking more about it, and by the way, that's the beauty of research is that when what

00:07:26.120 you hypothesize doesn't turn out to be as expected, it forces you to think more deeply about your

00:07:32.780 assumptions and, you know, the way you think the world works. And that's what happened in this case,

00:07:39.120 because once we looked into it, it was clear that, you know, while health seemed like a really

00:07:45.980 relevant motive, when it comes down to it, A, we can feel pressured to boost our health for, you know,

00:07:53.860 in our society, people feel pressured to do healthy things. It's kind of a moral imperative,

00:07:58.620 if you will, you know, just as a cultural norm, it, it, we feel pressured by our doctors. We feel

00:08:04.300 pressured by our families. We feel pressured by our employers. So there's a lot of pressure in there,

00:08:10.420 which, you know, undermines high quality staple motivation, as well as motivating us to rebel

00:08:17.400 often. But the other, and I think this might've been, if not equal, it's at least equal, if not greater.

00:08:25.080 The other problem with initiating a quote unquote healthy behavior, you know, to boost health is

00:08:31.720 that we, we live very busy, overly busy, full hectic lives. And if you make a list of the urgent

00:08:40.880 compelling things that you have to get done every day, you know, health in theory is, is important,

00:08:49.020 but it's not necessarily urgent or relevant today. And so it winds up not having what I call goal clout

00:08:59.140 in that it, it just doesn't have the clout to cut through the other things that we actually don't

00:09:04.340 have a choice about doing. Well, yeah, that makes sense. I mean, like a goal, like getting healthier,

00:09:08.700 like you can't really see it, right? Like you can't tell, well, is my blood sugar down? Well,

00:09:13.420 I can maybe check my blood sugar, but it's not like, like I get my kids, like not, not that concrete.

00:09:18.940 So it just gets pushed to the back burner. And that's part of it, but it's also,

00:09:23.320 it's also more than that because it's not just, I mean, yes, we need feedback to keep striving

00:09:30.620 towards our goals, but you know, on a daily basis, if you say, you know, how relevant is,

00:09:39.040 is exercising for better health compared to all these other things. And all the, we don't have

00:09:45.780 time to do all these other things, let alone add a behavior that doesn't make the list of the top 10.

00:09:53.400 Well, and besides goals being contaminated or goals we set for exercise, how can people's ideas

00:10:00.900 of exercise itself set them up for failure?

00:10:04.520 Well, in addition to the goal topic that we've already talked about, you know, if we're aiming

00:10:11.560 for future goals, like better health or weight loss, or, you know, what another future oriented

00:10:18.080 goal, we know research shows that people are much more motivated by immediate rewards, AKA how do I feel

00:10:27.300 right now, as opposed to goal rewards, we have to wait for dropping 30 pounds in six months or

00:10:33.940 avoiding disease, uh, diabetes at a certain point. So that's one thing. The other thing that really

00:10:41.920 gets in the way is people's beliefs about what constitutes a valid session of exercise or a, you know,

00:10:52.820 a good enough eating experience or eating choices. They're often, you know, overly lofty and ambitious

00:11:02.720 and it really prevents us from doing anything. So if in order to successfully, you know, exercise or be a

00:11:11.200 healthy eater, I have to achieve X, Y, and Z, and I can only achieve X, then why bother? So that's a really

00:11:20.220 big thing. And, you know, it's no one's fault that they, that we have these beliefs because as a society, we have

00:11:26.980 been socialized to have an all or nothing perspective on these topics, but that's a big reason people

00:11:35.400 don't stick with it. Yeah. I mean, something that you talk about in the book is that people have this

00:11:40.100 idea that exercise has to be hard. Like if you don't work up a good sweat and you don't feel like

00:11:44.700 you're thrashed at the end of it, well, that doesn't count. That's exactly right. And you know, what most

00:11:50.300 people don't know, and even when people know this, it's still very hard to change these beliefs because

00:11:55.480 they've been embedded for decades. But in 2018, in November, 2018, the national, the physical

00:12:03.180 activity guidelines were changed to restate something that they had basically originally

00:12:10.160 said in 1996, which was that you can accumulate physical activity during the day and everything

00:12:16.660 counts, everything. And I think, you know, knowing that science is really important for people to know

00:12:23.540 this isn't just a, gee, wouldn't it be nice if everything counted? And, you know, my walk down

00:12:29.880 the block with my dog that takes, you know, five minutes total, that doesn't really count, but it

00:12:35.200 does. And, and I think what I found in my coaching with individuals is that once people do start to

00:12:42.700 believe this, that they actually discover that they're doing things that count, which makes them feel

00:12:51.360 good and confident, which motivates them to do more, which makes them feel even better. And, and then

00:12:58.480 once people feel comfortable and confident that they can be successful this way, they actually wind up

00:13:04.480 doing more and they often graduate to a next level, which might be, you know, fast walking or going or

00:13:11.120 joining a gym. But we need to give people permission, just like people do in kindergarten. Let's get

00:13:16.700 successful on the little stuff and then let's graduate. And, you know, by the way, as you

00:13:22.540 probably know, that's not, that's not a new message. Start small. That's, you know, common

00:13:28.080 knowledge and education and, you know, everyone's kind of talking about it and it's not new. The

00:13:33.100 problem is people still have trouble starting small and it's because of the reasons, you know,

00:13:38.300 we've been talking about.

00:13:39.940 Well, so you talked about how we've been socialized to one thing that you should exercise for

00:13:44.860 specific reasons, right? It's like a, it's an external motivator put on you. So it feels like

00:13:50.160 a should, we have these ideas of what exercise is that's been socializing, but people would hear

00:13:55.380 this. Okay. So yeah, that's what motive, that's what discipline, that's what willpower is for.

00:13:59.760 If you can't stick to the goal, it just means you don't have enough willpower or discipline,

00:14:03.820 but you make the case that willpower and discipline aren't enough to overcome our inability to

00:14:08.660 keep exercising. Why is that?

00:14:10.640 Well, it's, I would say that it's more than they're not enough. It's that the way our brain

00:14:18.040 works, we, we have a finite amount. And while, you know, there is some research that shows that,

00:14:24.180 you know, people can increase their self-control, it's also hardwired to a great extent. And so

00:14:33.200 if there's a finite amount of willpower and discipline, then, you know, banking on that as

00:14:41.340 your, as your driver is, is not a very good idea. And the other thing is inherent in needing to use

00:14:47.840 willpower and discipline is that you really don't want to do it. So why not flip that on its head and

00:14:54.980 figure out how to do things in ways that if they're not pleasurable, they're palatable,

00:14:59.560 and you deeply understand the immediate value of your choices, not only to yourself and your mood

00:15:08.820 and your energy level, but the domino effect that those things have on the rest of your life,

00:15:14.740 like your family and how you talk to your kids and your partner and how much energy and enthusiasm

00:15:20.840 and creativity you bring to your job.

00:15:23.340 So in your research, you've developed an approach to sustainable exercise, sustainable

00:15:29.340 physical activity, and you've developed this program called MAPS, which is an acronym for

00:15:33.400 Meaning, Awareness, Permission, and Strategy. And you use this with clients when you coach them.

00:15:39.020 Let's dig into this, like this meaning component of MAPS. When you start off working with a client,

00:15:43.800 like you ask them what exercise means to them, what are the most common answers you get to that

00:15:48.700 question? Well, I start with this very broad categorization that I found to be very helpful

00:15:55.520 that people really resonate with. And I ask people on a scale from one to five, one being a chore to

00:16:02.020 five being a gift, you know, where do you sit on that continuum? That's really the beginning of the

00:16:07.420 whole process. And, you know, if someone's coming to me, then most likely they're a one or a two,

00:16:13.640 which is exercise feels like a chore. And then that's the perfect entree into, well,

00:16:20.120 why does it feel like a chore? And then, you know, people explain the reasons why, and it might be,

00:16:27.420 I hate to run or I feel really uncomfortable in the gym. And, and those are, then you can say, well,

00:16:34.540 why are you choosing that? Or what about being in the gym makes you uncomfortable? And so

00:16:38.700 what you want people to do is to start to develop self-awareness about what deep down underneath the

00:16:48.540 word physical activity or exercise, what does it mean to you? You know, it's a chore, if it's a chore

00:16:53.780 or a gift and just getting people to assess that can be very eyeopening.

00:16:58.580 And how does starting off, you know, an exercise goal with a faulty meaning, right? How can that

00:17:05.100 create what you call the vicious cycle of failure? So first off, I guess the question is like, what

00:17:09.500 does this vicious cycle of failure look like? And then how does starting off with a bad meaning

00:17:14.560 sort of kickstart all of this?

00:17:16.520 Sure. So the vicious cycle of failure keeps you stuck. It's vicious because it harms people. It prevents

00:17:23.800 them from being active in ways that would benefit them. And it makes people feel bad about themselves.

00:17:29.420 So it's vicious in that way. It's the second way it's vicious is that we can't escape it. So the way

00:17:36.120 it starts is what I call the wrong why. And, and nothing is inherently wrong motivationally unless A,

00:17:43.740 it doesn't work for you. B, it makes you feel bad about yourself. And C, if research shows that it's

00:17:50.800 actually not going to work for you because there's research about that. And so what happens is, is

00:17:55.280 that, and I consider wrong whys to be things like, you know, focusing on weight loss, far away health

00:18:01.980 goals, that sort of thing. What happens when you start with the wrong why, the beginning of the

00:18:07.660 vicious cycle means that it feels like a chore from the get-go, from the get-go. And it doesn't,

00:18:14.380 but the important thing about the cycle is it does get you motivated to start. And, you know,

00:18:19.640 I'm just going to link back to my comment about the motivation bubble. It does get you to start

00:18:25.480 in your motivation bubble, but eventually most people drop out or the bubble bursts and that,

00:18:32.460 you know, they feel like failures, life gets too busy, whatever it is. And they, you know,

00:18:37.600 they may stop for two weeks, two months, or two years, but eventually when they start again,

00:18:42.280 it's always in search of the next wrong why. And that keep, that's what keeps us stuck in the

00:18:46.800 vicious cycle. And, you know, the wrong whys are on magazine covers. They're the messages we might

00:18:53.980 get from our employers that make us feel pressured. I mean, whatever it is, but you stay stuck. And it's

00:18:59.680 because that's the only system we've learned in society. Yeah. And I think we've all experienced

00:19:06.000 that vicious cycle of failure, right? You start off with this, these good, what do you think are good

00:19:09.800 intentions? They're probably, there are good intentions. Yeah. You fail, then you feel worse,

00:19:14.000 which kind of demotivates you for a little bit. You can kind of go through that trough. You're like,

00:19:18.340 I just, I'm not good at anything. It's never going to happen. And then you kind of

00:19:22.180 flagellate yourself to get back on the track and then it just goes over and over and over again.

00:19:27.620 Exactly. And so when you work with clients and you're helping them figure out the meaning of

00:19:32.660 exercise to them, like how do you, what's, what works, what have you found works for meaning? So

00:19:39.080 you don't start this vicious cycle of failure. Well, the way that you, so the meaning, the way

00:19:46.680 that I mean it, the way that I've come to understand it is that the meaning, your meaning

00:19:53.920 of exercise, whether it's a chore or a gift is determined by number one, the reason why you're

00:20:00.280 doing it, your goal or motive. And we've talked about that already. But the second is, the second

00:20:06.700 part of meaning is, is created by the experiences you have while being active. So if you're

00:20:13.680 exercising in a way that you're exhausted, you're too tired to do, but you force yourself to do it,

00:20:20.220 you know, some people might think that's a good thing. And some people do power through those,

00:20:24.480 you know, that punishing type of feeling. And if it works for them, great. A lot of other people,

00:20:30.060 it creates such a bad feeling that it actually, you know, creates a negative association with

00:20:34.880 exercise and unconsciously you want to avoid it. So the way you help someone create a new meaning,

00:20:41.140 which I talk about extensively, the steps in my book is you want to start to have positive

00:20:48.760 experiences with physical activity. You want them to, to not only have positive experience with

00:20:54.760 physical activity, you want them to start linking their reason for doing it, which would, you know,

00:21:02.020 research shows is literally, it's better if the reasons are about immediate benefits versus these

00:21:08.840 distal, you know, health-related logical goals. And if we're aiming for something positive now,

00:21:15.040 then we have to make sure that our physical activity delivers that. So it's working with

00:21:18.820 both of those things kind of synergistically get people to change their meanings.

00:21:24.760 Yeah. So it sounds like you're, you're, you're trying to help clients find

00:21:27.380 physical activity that they actually enjoy doing just for the thing itself.

00:21:32.380 Well, enjoyment is a specific word. And, you know, a lot of people use that word, I think,

00:21:38.680 because we don't want, you know, I don't think exercise is enjoyable, you know, for everyone.

00:21:44.200 And what, you know, what I say is that we want to help people have some type of positive experience,

00:21:49.720 or at least not a negative one. I mean, I've worked with people who say, who say,

00:21:53.680 you know, I just don't feel anything, Michelle. And, you know, at the beginning process of getting

00:22:00.120 in touch with how we feel, some people don't even feel it. And it's because we've been taught to be

00:22:05.320 disconnected from our bodies, whether it comes to eating or exercise. So it can be a process, but

00:22:11.220 at least it's not negative. So, so for example, I like to walk outside. I wouldn't say I enjoy walking

00:22:18.660 outside. I might say it feels good to walk outside. It lifts my mood to walk outside or it energizes me.

00:22:25.220 So I think what we want to do is offer up kind of a menu of, of potential benefits and rewards from

00:22:34.880 moving that then people can, you know, pick their own.

00:22:38.940 We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors. And now back to the show.

00:22:42.440 And this also means broadening the scope of what people consider exercise, because oftentimes

00:22:48.540 people narrow in, like it's either running on a treadmill, it's doing like CrossFit, it is doing,

00:22:53.340 you know, some sort of weightlifting program and that's it. But there are other things they could

00:22:58.620 do that could provide benefit, but they don't think about it because they've never even considered

00:23:03.580 an option. That's right. That's exactly right. And it gets back to something that we were talking

00:23:09.180 about earlier, which is that the physical activity guidelines, you know, officially says everything

00:23:14.860 counts and anything is better than nothing. And, but because we've been, you know, I will use this

00:23:20.540 very intense word. We've been brainwashed that we, you know, have to do it in the way that you just said

00:23:26.380 that it's very hard to become unbrainwashed, but that is why, you know, I think that's why I developed

00:23:35.120 the process I did because I think we need to give people an opportunity. I call it exorcising

00:23:39.940 exercise. We want to give people a chance to toss out the beliefs and attitudes and practices that,

00:23:47.440 you know, they discover are in there really getting in their way. And that's, you know, that's why,

00:23:53.080 you know, I use a process. I don't think it's enough to just say change your beliefs, develop a new

00:23:58.840 mindset because there's this contaminated heavy stuff below the surface of our consciousness that

00:24:05.660 if we don't address it and basically burn through it, let it evaporate, let it out,

00:24:13.480 it's always going to be below the surface. So even if you try some of the strategies we're talking about,

00:24:20.080 like starting small, if you don't address the negativity, the shoulds, the resentment,

00:24:26.560 the punishing meaning you have for that five minutes, those things are going to rear their

00:24:32.320 ugly heads and get in the way. No, one of the reasons why you're, when I found your book and

00:24:36.860 I read it and it resonated with me is because I, my experience, it synced up with what you were

00:24:41.780 talking about. So, you know, for years I had tried different exercise modalities, like I should

00:24:46.100 exercise, I need to do this. So I tried running that lasted, you know, a month or two. I tried different

00:24:52.480 weightlifting things with like dumbbells and things. Didn't enjoy it. Tried a CrossFit thing. That

00:24:57.380 didn't last for very long. But then like three or four years ago, I discovered like barbell training

00:25:02.880 and I like, I really enjoy this. And I, like, I, I've, I've, in the past four years, I've missed

00:25:08.840 maybe a handful of workouts and it's not because like I I'm disciplined. It's like, I, I look forward

00:25:14.880 to it. It's like, I, I enjoy moving my body in that way. And it, it's funny. It took me like

00:25:18.780 almost a decade to figure that out. And just that idea of like, I enjoy moving my body. It's not

00:25:24.640 unpleasant. I mean, it's unpleasant in a different way, but it's not like I dread doing it. It's

00:25:30.240 helped me sustain this, this modality that I do. And you said it took 10 years, but you know,

00:25:36.520 when you think about the majority of the population, you're way ahead of the game,

00:25:39.920 you know, and I do want to say this, I don't know if I've ever said this before, but you know,

00:25:44.540 I think this is a really good analogy in some ways, you know, when you do something intense,

00:25:49.860 like you're talking about, cause it is pretty intense, right? Yes, it can be. Yeah. Okay. And

00:25:54.840 what is, I'm trying to think of the name of, oh, um, it's very quick, high intensity. Oh,

00:26:03.820 I don't know. Oh yeah. It's not hit it's weightlifting. That's, um, no, I do like powerlifting type

00:26:10.520 stuff, but, um, okay. So that's different, but you know, you said you enjoy it and they're like,

00:26:15.000 well, it's not that it's not, you know, there isn't some challenge, but you know, it, it,

00:26:18.860 when you said that, it reminded me of wasabi, like, you know, I love wasabi and, and it is painful

00:26:27.580 sometimes, but there's something about that experience that I enjoy. So, you know, but the,

00:26:35.220 the difference, the, the, the big thing is, is that I'm choosing to eat the wasabi. It's not being 0.62

00:26:40.400 forced down my throat. You're choosing to do that exercise. And research shows that while in

00:26:46.060 general, you know, high intensity exercise, which is not what you're talking about, but in general,

00:26:51.620 you know, exercise that is intense and hard in some ways reduces people's displeasure. So that's

00:26:58.400 not a good thing if your pleasure is reduced, cause you're not likely to keep going. If you

00:27:03.180 autonomously choose to do the exercise and deeply autonomous, cause a lot of times people say, well,

00:27:09.340 I chose to go to orange theory. So it doesn't that count? Well, if you're going to orange theory,

00:27:13.740 you, yeah, you chose to do it, but are you doing it out of the wrong? Why does it feel like a should,

00:27:19.780 you know, those sorts of things. So when you choose those things, because you deeply want to do it,

00:27:26.000 then your displeasure may not go down or may not go up. So, you know, picking the experiences,

00:27:35.840 even if they are challenging or slightly painful, like wasabi or whatever, as long as you're in

00:27:41.300 control, it's going to have a different meaning than if, you know, if someone stuffed wasabi down

00:27:46.340 my throat, it would be horrible, right? I'd hate it. So, and that's true with exercise.

00:27:51.360 So someone might be hearing this say, okay, uh, with exercise, I just need to like, my why needs to be

00:27:57.020 something that maybe I don't necessarily enjoy. It feels good. It's pleasant. I could,

00:28:03.200 I can make that a meaning, but I can also make the meaning of exercise. Well, I'm going to lose

00:28:07.240 some weight and look better. Can you have multiple meanings to exercise?

00:28:12.500 So that's a really great question. And I think the short answer is that, and I, you know,

00:28:19.740 that there's been research that shows both sides, what the challenge with weight loss. And I'll give

00:28:27.480 you an example. I, I was working with a client who is wanting to eat in healthier ways.

00:28:33.200 And she, you know, came to me pretty obsessed about losing weight and unhappy with her weight, 0.97

00:28:40.980 you know, that she'd basically maintained for, you know, 20 or 30 years. And she, you know,

00:28:46.100 she, she had been in the vicious cycle failure for that long. Like, and, and that was one of

00:28:50.580 the questions I asked her, you know, have you tried to lose weight and eat in, in, in ways by

00:28:57.200 focusing on your weight and doing it in an extreme way? And she's like, yes, that's how I've

00:29:01.380 always done it. And I said, has it worked for you long-term? And she's like, absolutely not.

00:29:05.820 It's never worked. And so I said, well, do you want to stop? Are you ready to stop

00:29:10.880 hitting your head against the same wall? And in theory, the answer was yes. But as we were doing

00:29:19.480 our work, you know, she kept talking about weight and focusing on the scale. And it's, so in,

00:29:27.480 to answer your question, if weight is in the equation, it contaminates your relationship

00:29:33.460 with a behavior like physical activity. So you can say, yes, I want to enjoy it. But if you're,

00:29:37.940 if you're a slave to your scale, then you really can't create a new meaning for exercise or other,

00:29:45.740 you know, behaviors like it. So, you know, I, I, it's not that you shouldn't try to lose weight.

00:29:53.480 It's that, you know, I, in my work with people, I say, put your desire for weight loss, pause it.

00:30:00.660 You know, I, I really can only work with people who can pause it because otherwise I can't be,

00:30:04.480 they can't be successful. And then once you've learned how to institutionalize physical activity

00:30:09.860 into your life in sustainable ways, that means consistency through the ups and downs, then,

00:30:15.540 you know, if you want to lose weight, focus on eating. And the, you know, the other really

00:30:18.860 important thing. And, you know, a lot of people know this, but a lot of people don't eating beats

00:30:23.640 out exercise by, you know, exponentially in determining how much we weigh. So if you want

00:30:29.260 to lose weight, you know, exercise is good to, you know, for helping you sleep, for boosting your

00:30:34.680 energy, for boosting your mood, all of those things would support better eating. But when it comes

00:30:39.500 to calorie expenditure, you know, it's just not that effective. So if you want to lose weight,

00:30:45.980 you're better off, I think, creating this foundation of physical activity, what's going

00:30:50.500 to benefit your mental, your outlook, your mindset, your mood, which will then, when you're

00:30:57.640 ready and when you've learned how to sustain physical activity, then focus on eating. I mean,

00:31:02.060 and, you know, clients of mine have said that they've done that. And, you know, then I run into

00:31:06.940 them in some cases and they're like, you know, I decided to start losing weight and I, you know,

00:31:11.140 I joined a program like Weight Watchers and it was so much easier to do because I didn't

00:31:15.960 have to think about exercise too. It was already a part of my life.

00:31:19.720 All right. So that's meaning. The next part of MAPS is awareness. What do you mean by awareness?

00:31:23.460 What does that look like?

00:31:24.520 Well, awareness, you know, it's kind of a hard word to define. It's really like being aware of

00:31:31.840 and mindful of the beliefs you hold about physical activity. Is it, does it have to be hard and

00:31:39.940 vigorous like you suggested earlier? Does it have to be done exactly the same? Every time 0.80

00:31:45.900 I do it, is it supposed to, is it going to, you know, help me drop 10 pounds? So awareness

00:31:52.420 is really about helping people become aware of the beliefs they have about physical activity that

00:31:59.000 either support or undermine it, as well as become aware of the true challenges they have to sticking

00:32:08.280 with exercise. And is it like, is it other people in your life? Do they undermine you? Is it that

00:32:14.400 you've picked a physical activity or a gym that takes an hour to get to? I mean, you know, real,

00:32:20.580 is it simply the beliefs you have that it's hard and vigorous and you hate doing it that way? So

00:32:24.900 awareness encapsulates both of those things. And that's part of the process.

00:32:31.420 And it sounds like awareness also might involve being aware of what you enjoy or what feels good,

00:32:36.760 what kind of movement feels good. And like,

00:32:38.260 That's exactly right.

00:32:39.460 Yeah. Absolutely.

00:32:40.480 Yeah. Cause I mean, a lot of times people will, they, they, I think you talk about there's clients

00:32:44.400 who were able to tell you things that they enjoyed, but they would just ignore it because

00:32:47.720 they're like, well, that's not exercise. It's like, you say, no, no, no, no, no. You need to pay

00:32:51.920 attention to that. And let's, let's focus on that.

00:32:55.500 Absolutely. I mean, I had a client and he, you know, when, when, you know, at first people are like,

00:33:01.340 I, I don't think I like anything. You know, that's a normal response based on a history

00:33:05.920 that was full of negative experiences. And then, well, what, what did you like to do? This is like

00:33:10.660 a classic, you know, cliche thing. Well, what did you like to do as a kid? Well, I like, I biked,

00:33:16.940 I loved to bike. And then this gentleman, you know, bought a, you know, a, a grownup bike and that,

00:33:24.160 you know, during the summer months that became the physical activity he did. And so, you know,

00:33:30.060 search deep for the answer and then experiment. It's not like you're not mirroring what you choose.

00:33:36.900 You're actually just experimenting to see what works, what you like, what you don't.

00:33:41.360 So moving from awareness, there's permission. What do you mean by permission? Is it just permission to,

00:33:46.460 to allow you just permission to enjoy exercise? Like think of exercise as a gift to you. Is that

00:33:51.400 what you mean by permission? Or is it something broader?

00:33:53.240 I mean, two things by permission. Absolutely. Permission to get rid of the beliefs that get

00:33:59.800 in your way. Permission to pick physical activities that are pleasurable or make you feel good. But the

00:34:08.580 overarching permission that I talk about in the book is about permission to prioritize your own

00:34:15.740 wellbeing and self-care. And, you know, a lot of people don't feel that it's, that they have the

00:34:23.200 right to take time out of their day or that it's worth taking time out of their day to feel good

00:34:29.300 from physical movement. And, you know, the way that I help people, you know, give themselves permission

00:34:36.280 is to help them understand, you know, in, in real ways in between our sessions that, you know, if you do

00:34:43.640 the, you're, you know, selected healthy behavior, you know, how do you feel when you do it? How do you feel

00:34:49.720 when you don't do it? And then how does the rest of your life go? And once people in a very real way

00:34:56.100 begin to notice, gee, when I don't do this, I feel this way. And that really undermines, you know,

00:35:03.080 I'm grumpier when I talk to my kids, you know, I feel resentful at work and certainly not creative,

00:35:09.420 but when I do do it, it turns everything around. Then that legitimizes the time spent,

00:35:18.080 whether it's getting an extra 30 minutes of sleep or walking for 20 minutes outside after work,

00:35:24.500 before you go home, whatever it is, it legitimizes that time because you, you begin to understand

00:35:30.920 that, wow, this isn't just about feeling good. This is actually about everything else. This is

00:35:36.040 about me feeling myself for what matters most. Yeah. I imagine this is, could be a really hard

00:35:41.400 part of the program. Cause I think a lot of people might listen to you. Yeah. I'm going to change my

00:35:45.160 meaning. I can do that, but like, man, I'm, I'm so busy. I've got obligations with work,

00:35:49.760 with family, with these other activities I'm doing. I just, it would be self-indulgent. I just

00:35:54.600 don't have the time to do that. And that's something I'm sure you have to work a lot with your clients.

00:35:59.240 This is the hardest issue. This is the hardest part of the process because at its core, this issue

00:36:07.800 touches on what are we valuable for? Like what, what are, you know, who are we and what is our

00:36:16.620 value in the world? And so in society, we're rewarded for being successful at work. We, you

00:36:23.360 know, we are rewarded. We feel rewarded for being good parents and partners and all that, but we're

00:36:29.600 not rewarded for self-care and we're not rewarded to increase our sense of wellbeing. So that truly is

00:36:35.660 the most difficult thing. And, um, you know, there's a couple of things I want to say in

00:36:40.080 response to it. Number one, one of the reasons people, an interaction with this issue is that

00:36:46.740 if people's goal, you know, plans are too lofty, yeah, it's really hard to fit in exercise if it

00:36:53.080 has to be an hour as opposed to 10 minutes. Right. So that interacts with this issue. The second thing

00:36:58.940 is, is that a lot of people perceive, you know, people like me who advocates for this stuff and

00:37:07.520 maybe you, you know, who does this regularly, people believe that, you know, we don't have any

00:37:12.760 challenges and that it's just easy and effortless for us to, you know, to make it work. And, you know,

00:37:18.960 I think it's really important to say that, you know, unless you're like my husband and some people

00:37:24.100 are, I don't think most people are. I mean, he gets up every morning at five to do his exercise

00:37:27.800 because that's what he needs to feel good during his day. But I, you know, I still struggle. You

00:37:34.320 know, I've got an inbox that's full that I want to get down. You know, I have work I want to finish

00:37:40.360 and sometimes I choose to take my walks and sometimes I don't. And I think it's really important

00:37:45.560 for people to know that I don't always choose to do the exercise. What I don't do is feel like a

00:37:51.120 failure or, or think poorly and be very negatively judge our, ourselves for that choice. That's,

00:37:59.100 that's one of the contaminators of motivation. When we judge ourselves negatively for not doing

00:38:04.360 something, that's like an injection of, you know, poisoned motivation, if you will. And so I do think

00:38:12.940 it's really important for people to give themselves a break, cut themselves some slack and know that most

00:38:19.980 people, you know, even those of us who seem successful or are successful, we don't do it all

00:38:26.360 the time.

00:38:27.660 So finally, the MAPS program that you have is strategy. And you've got six big ideas that to

00:38:32.840 help people think about exercise and self-care differently to help, help them overcome roadblocks

00:38:37.400 they're going to probably encounter because they're busy, life happens. Let's talk about a few of

00:38:41.520 these. The first one is this idea of making your exercise a learning goal as opposed to performance

00:38:49.300 goal. What's the difference between the two and why are learning goals better?

00:38:53.400 Sure. So, you know, in different fields, they use different terms and, you know, whether it's a

00:38:59.940 performance goal or an achievement goal, it means you're aiming for something. It means when you're

00:39:06.620 doing it, you're really focused on hitting the bullseye and that creates a lot of pressure and stress.

00:39:14.120 And research shows that in complex contexts, that type of goal in, you know, changing dynamic context,

00:39:22.460 having that kind of goal is going to be less effective for you to achieve what you're trying

00:39:28.900 to achieve than if you consider what you're doing as a learning goal. So, for example, if, you know,

00:39:35.840 I'm aiming to either lose 50 pounds through whatever I'm doing or I'm aiming to perfectly enact my healthy

00:39:44.940 behavior goal five, you know, five out of five days, those would be considered, you know, achievement

00:39:51.560 or performance goals. But if instead I'm thinking about this as a project where, gosh, sometimes I'm going

00:40:01.220 to get it, sometimes I'm not. But every time I do it, especially when I don't do it, it gives me an

00:40:07.780 opportunity to learn and get better for the next time. And that takes the pressure off. Research shows

00:40:13.320 that when people have these types of learning goals, they have more intrinsic motivation, which is,

00:40:19.200 you know, one of the, you know, best type of motivation, intrinsic motivation in terms of

00:40:24.640 sustainability. They have greater persistence in the face of challenges. I mean, think about it. If

00:40:30.300 you've got to be perfect and a challenge happens, what's the point of going forward? But if instead,

00:40:37.420 you know, something happens and gets in your way, you're like, oh, okay, this happened.

00:40:43.600 What can I learn about this? How can I do it differently the next time? You don't have to stop.

00:40:49.040 You just have to pause and learn. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes, that makes, that makes perfect

00:40:53.580 sense. And then another idea is this idea for strategizing is learning how to negotiate with yourself.

00:40:59.580 What do you mean by that? And what does that look like?

00:41:02.700 Well, you know, in a lot of areas of life, we have to negotiate, we have to negotiate,

00:41:08.260 you know, when we get jobs, we have to negotiate over who's going to do the dishes at night. You

00:41:12.860 know, we have to negotiate all the time in all kinds of circumstances. And typically we don't,

00:41:18.060 we, you know, we associate the word negotiate mostly with money, but, you know, really we,

00:41:23.980 we always do have to negotiate ourselves and it gets back to the permission content that we talked about

00:41:28.580 earlier, which is, okay, am I going, you know, this, the all or nothing thinking really, if that's what

00:41:36.920 you're doing, you're not negotiating. So here's an example. Okay. I need, I, I plan to take a 45

00:41:43.320 minute walk outside and I really want to finish this manuscript. So what am I going to do? You know,

00:41:52.380 the way you negotiate is you go, okay, well, I don't want to give up my walk, but I really,

00:41:57.340 I'm going to be stressed out if I don't, you know, make progress toward this, finishing this

00:42:02.860 manuscript. So negotiating would be, well, how about we split the time 50, 50, or, you know,

00:42:09.440 at this moment, finishing that manuscript has some urgent urgency associated with it. So

00:42:14.740 maybe I'll do 35 minutes and give myself 10 minutes of the walk. So it's, it's really

00:42:21.440 understanding that we do have to negotiate with ourselves. And, um, you know, when it comes to

00:42:26.620 this stuff. So when I was been talking about this, we've been talking about exercise, but this, this

00:42:30.760 maps program you develop, it sounds like it could work for other habits that people want to develop

00:42:35.600 as well. Absolutely. And, and, you know, uh, that's true. And I've used it for other things and clients

00:42:42.080 who worked with me with exercise, for example, on their own have used maps in other areas,

00:42:49.120 including eating. You know, I had someone contact me really, I don't know, over a decade later who said

00:42:55.300 that, um, she had had to have hip surgery, you know, just a regular kind of aging related thing.

00:43:03.460 And in her recovery period, you know, she used maps to help her do what she needed to do with her

00:43:10.420 physical therapy and the, the meaning she brought to what she was doing. So yeah, maps really can be

00:43:16.460 used for anything. So we've been talking to kind of big picture and there's a lot more details in

00:43:20.860 your book, but like say someone's listening to this, like, okay, I want to start implementing this

00:43:24.140 today. What, what would you say? Like the one or two things that you would recommend someone doing

00:43:28.780 today so that they can start making exercise a sustainable part of their life?

00:43:34.120 Well, I think the first thing I would say to them, you know, be very clear about whether your

00:43:41.340 intention to do this is truly yours or if you're doing it out of some type of should. And, you know,

00:43:50.260 if it's truly yours, then move forward and, you know, find something that you want to do. You know,

00:43:56.860 if, if you want to do it with your family or alone in nature, what, find something that's,

00:44:01.220 that really feels like it would work for you. And then experiment with, you know, whether it gives

00:44:07.680 you what you're hoping for, how to fit it into your life. You know, there's all these logistical

00:44:12.020 issues people have to figure out. If it feels like it should, when you really ask yourself to be honest,

00:44:19.320 then the question is, well, why? And, you know, why does it feel like it should? And, and, and,

00:44:24.620 you know, are you willing to maybe let go of that and instead decide to fuel yourself

00:44:31.120 in some way? So I would say that's the beginning phase.

00:44:35.320 Well, Michelle, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn

00:44:37.640 more about the book, No Sweat and your work?

00:44:40.360 I have a website that's michelleseeger.com and there's information about the book. There's some

00:44:45.880 blog posts, that sort of thing. So yeah, it's been such a pleasure to speak with you.

00:44:50.740 Well, Michelle Seeger, thanks so much time. It's been a pleasure.

00:44:52.900 Thank you.

00:44:53.980 My guest today was Michelle Seeger. She's the author of the book, No Sweat. It's available on

00:44:57.960 amazon.com. And you can also find out more information about her work at our website,

00:45:01.480 michelleseeger.com. Also check out our show notes at awim.is slash no sweat. We can find

00:45:06.900 links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:45:16.200 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AWIM podcast. Check out our website at

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The Art of Manliness - January 13, 2020

#575： Counterintuitive Advice on Making Exercise a Sustainable Habit

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