Every day, we have to make choices on whether we can trust someone or not. If we make the wrong choice, it can mean a failed relationship or business partnership and all the emotional and financial costs that follow. My guest today has spent his career sizing people up in high stakes situations. His name is Robin Dreek and he spent two decades working as a behavioral analyst for the FBI. And in his new book, Sizing People Up, a veteran FBI agent s user manual for behavior prediction, he shares the tips everyone can use in determining whether or not someone is trustworthy.
00:01:35.780I've been asked for it a lot lately, and it was actually a very natural progression and one that I never anticipated.
00:01:42.560So The Code of Trust is all about behavior you can have to inspire trust in others.
00:01:46.900And what happened was The Code of Trust is about focusing on others and how they want to be interacted with and knowing how to demonstrate affiliation, knowing how to demonstrate value to them.
00:01:56.820And it made me focus so much on other people that I really started understanding, well, wow, other people, if you really focus on them really hard, they become really easy to predict.
00:02:06.140Because what every person basically wants is to be affiliated and valued by individuals, and they're always going to act in their own best interest.
00:02:14.320And so all I got to do is figure out what that is, and I can predict their behavior.
00:02:18.400And like in The Code of Trust, I mean, so your background is you worked for the FBI in their behavioral analysis department.
00:02:25.140And like what your job was, like you were trying to like find spies here in the country and get information from them.
00:02:30.800And what made you successful at that job wasn't doing like the subterfuge stuff.
00:02:34.340It was simply just gaining that person's trust, and they would open up to you.
00:02:40.200Yeah, I call it the toughest sales job in the face of the planet because my job was to recruit foreign spies.
00:02:46.080My product was American patriotism, and foreign spies are typically foreign diplomats at diplomatic establishments, and so they're under diplomatic cover.
00:02:56.740And so the funny thing is, so I'm selling a product of American patriotism to someone who probably doesn't want to buy it.
00:03:04.360And the second challenge is it's illegal for me to actually make an approach to them because they're foreign diplomats as FBI agent.
00:03:13.540So you've got a product you want to sell that no one wants to buy, and it's illegal for you to talk to your potential clients.
00:03:18.700And so I found over the years, I had these great mentors and guys, I call them Jedi Masters, who knew how to develop these amazing relationships.
00:03:29.020And ultimately, at the end of the day, it wasn't coming down to subterfuge or deception or manipulation.
00:04:29.100You know, it's so liking someone and just because they share your same morals and ethics doesn't necessarily mean you can trust them.
00:04:35.340So I quickly shift trust into predictability because it really comes down to what can I reasonably predict this human being or this person is going to do.
00:04:44.420And really the whole point of that is so I can manage my expectations and so I can make good cognitive choices so that I can keep that good, healthy relationship in all situations.
00:04:53.000So it sounds like trust is context specific.
00:04:55.700Like you said, you could trust maybe your best friend to keep a secret about something that's personal, but you wouldn't trust him to fly a plane.
00:05:01.920It's very, you know, I love keeping things in lanes, you know, and because if someone blows trust in one area because they lacked confidence maybe in it, doesn't mean you can't trust them in other lanes of their life.
00:05:13.620And the analogy you just get was great, you know what I mean?
00:05:16.160So, you know, I trust someone because they're a good friend of mine and they take care of the house really well so I can trust them to watch my house.
00:05:23.400He has no confidence in a few of these other areas, so I would never ask him to do that.
00:05:27.920But sometimes people do, then they're disappointed, then they get angry, and there goes the relationship.
00:05:32.860And what are the consequences of – I mean, I guess everyone – I guess people know the consequences if you trust someone you know you shouldn't have trust.
00:05:40.620I mean, in your line of work, it could have been, you know, the difference between whether stopping a terrorist attack or something.
00:05:46.420In our personal lives, it can be a ruined marriage, a bad business deal, et cetera.
00:05:51.260Yeah, the consequences to me – it's so funny.
00:05:54.700The book – I did the book for many reasons at multiple levels.
00:05:58.600If you want to take it at a very surface level, you know, you can say, all right, I'm having a couple interactions with people in a boardroom.
00:06:04.320I want to see who I can size up and who I can trust and not trust.
00:09:03.920So it's that six-degree separation of Kevin Bacon thing.
00:09:07.460These seven people might not have all the answers, but they know someone who has the answers.
00:09:11.360I've never had to go more than two degrees deep in order to find the answers we needed to have in order to protect national security.
00:09:17.660So in your work, and then you lay this out in the book, you found six signs of behavior prediction on whether you can trust someone or not.
00:09:24.220But before we get into these specific signs, let's talk about the overarching framework you discuss in the book about sizing people up.
00:09:32.040So what are the big picture things that people need to keep in the back of their mind when they're interacting with someone
00:09:38.160and they're trying to figure out, can I trust this person?
00:09:40.420So I think the easiest thing to think about is us as human beings, what is every single human being on this planet hardwired to do?
00:09:49.380We're all hardwired for safety, security, and prosperity for ourselves.
00:09:58.500So all I have to do is figure out what the other person, from their point of view, thinks will grant them safety, security, and prosperity.
00:10:07.420If they're a little more altruistic, it'll go out to their family a little more, to their community a little more, maybe to their nation.
00:10:15.760We're genetically hardwired for safety, security, and prosperity.
00:10:19.280And so if you understand that and remember that every time you're interacting with someone, all you've got to figure out is focus on that and figure out what they think is in their own best interest.
00:10:29.040Because people will always act in their own best interests.
00:10:31.980And then the other thing you talk about, too, is you want to keep your feelings out of it.
00:10:35.320Like, again, going back to that subjectivity.
00:10:37.220Just because you like someone doesn't necessarily mean you can trust them.
00:10:40.880And that can be very difficult because I know we get emotionally attached to things, we get emotionally attached to people, and we get emotionally hijacked.
00:10:47.580You know, the real reason I love the code of trust and I love sizing people up is because it keeps that irrational brain where we have these emotional impulses for fight or flight.
00:10:56.760It helps you remember, keep cognitive.
00:10:59.960Is what I'm doing actually helping or hindering a healthy relationship?
00:11:03.300Is what I'm doing actually assessing what they are doing or not doing?
00:11:06.480Or am I just emotionally reacting to what they're doing?
00:11:08.600And then all throughout the book, you talk about this, is that Russian saying, trust but verify.
00:11:17.100It means that I generally will start out trusting you because human beings, you know, no one wants to be mistrusted or no one's looking to take advantage from the get-go.
00:11:28.000They're just always going to act in their own best interest.
00:11:29.940So I just start out understanding that you're going to act in your best interest, and I'm going to trust you to act in your best interest.
00:11:35.920And so I'm going to trust it as long as it's overlapping with mine, and I'm going to look for signs that where some of these things might be going sideways and it might not be in my best interest to do that.
00:11:54.200So vesting is, you know, it becomes that symbiotic relationship is, are they actually doing things, you know, proactively that are good for you as well?
00:12:04.120So that's what I'm really looking for in that.
00:12:09.000You know, there's a lot of, like I'm thinking back to the, you know, I actually use the story I used in the book.
00:12:13.760You know, my very first confidential human source that I had in the FBI, this was a guy that had had, you know, 25 years working with the FBI, had 14 or 15 handlers before me, and some went sideways, some went well.
00:12:28.380And I remember when I first started interacting with him, he really cared about my future, my success, because he knew, he loved being a source, he loved being a patriot, and he knew that if he could help me be successful, he would be a better patriot because he'd be able to do more as well.
00:12:46.460So he was really vested in my success.
00:13:08.220I like when people are talking in terms of my interests.
00:13:11.420Contrary to that, they're talking in terms of their own interests.
00:13:14.520I love when people have, you know, their own favors that they call in from other people for your behalf.
00:13:19.900In other words, they're calling in favors of people they know, relationships they have to benefit you.
00:13:25.720Converse of that is that you know they have these connections, and yet they're keeping them screened from you.
00:13:31.020And another really big one I really love is when they start overlapping their lives with you.
00:13:35.720So you have a professional relationship with someone, and all of a sudden, you know, they're inviting you to social engagements as well.
00:13:41.160And the converse of that is when they're excluding you from these things.
00:13:43.960So basically, any time where you see someone taking actions, where they're being selfless in the things they're doing, where they have no personal gain, but the gain is all for you, and they have no expectation or reciprocity for it.
00:13:56.300That is someone that's totally vested in you.
00:13:58.060Well, that second one's important because I think everyone's encountered that thing where people look like they're vested.
00:14:02.480Like, hey, I'm doing this thing for you, but you're like, this feels weird.
00:14:05.400Like, I don't, there's an angle here, and I don't like it.
00:14:09.680And that's why, you know, my third anchor, so I have these three anchors for everything I do.
00:14:13.800My number one anchor for everything I do is, number one, healthy professional relationship.
00:14:18.880Number two is open, honest, communication, and transparency, because I can't have the healthy relationship without that.
00:14:24.520My third is, is be a resource for the success and prosperity of others without expectation or reciprocity, because when you make yourself available for others as a resource without that expectation, that's when it becomes a good, healthy relationship.
00:14:37.920So that's what I'm looking for as well.
00:14:53.100It's, it's believing that the relationship they have with you is going to last a long time, or at least beyond, you know, a quid pro quo of a quick sale.
00:15:01.180So I've had, you know, I've had some people I've worked with that were, you know, quick, you know, two, three, four meetings and out.
00:15:08.000And then I have, I've got a few people that, I mean, I'm still friends with them now, you know, I retired, I retired, you know, over a year ago.
00:15:16.560And I am, I have people I was in contact with over 20 years ago in New York, and I am still in contact with them today.
00:15:25.160So that is someone that you know, is a lot, you know, a long thing.
00:15:28.260So you can do it, you have in your personal life, as well, whether it's someone that you marry, it's those lifelong friends that you grew up with.
00:15:36.160And you have, you know, and even in neighborhoods, you know, say you move from place to place, but you know, you don't carry everyone forward with you.
00:15:43.220But a few of them, you wind up carrying forward with you.
00:15:45.580Well, you talk about in your, in your job, sometimes you only had like, one meeting to figure out, is this guy in for the long run?
00:15:51.940So what did you do as an FBI agent when you're talking to a diplomat?
00:16:03.620So if we're going to look in the terms of longevity, I'm looking for the things he's looking to do.
00:16:08.220You know, if he starts having language about, you know, where he's going to live, where he's going to place his kids in school, and how I'm going to be part of that.
00:16:17.380And he is asking me questions about my career, and would I still be in contact with him, you know, in five years from now?
00:16:24.360You know, so I'm looking for that kind of language.
00:16:25.860I'm also looking for things like rituals.
00:16:28.560You know, lots of cultures have different rituals.
00:16:30.820And when I first met this one guy from the Middle East, I remember he had this favorite, you know, chai tea that him and his brother would have.
00:16:39.960And I remember at the very – I learned that in the first meeting.
00:16:43.440At the second meeting, I actually bought that chai tea with me, and we shared that together.
00:16:47.380So we established a ritual that became every time we got together, we had that.
00:16:51.380And then he initiated a ritual where he sent me a gift basket at Thanksgiving every year full of cookies.
00:16:59.280It was the most innocuous, smallest thing, but I then reciprocated at the, you know, at the New Year, sent him in one in kind.
00:17:14.180Well, and then a third principle you look at is reliability.
00:17:16.640And this goes to that point we were talking about earlier, you know, you might trust your friend for, you know, keeping a secret for whatever reason.
00:17:23.680But you might not trust him to fly a plane because he's not reliable to fly a plane.
00:17:28.500So what are you looking at to figure out if someone's reliable or not?
00:17:31.340Yes, reliability, we break it really into two things, both diligence and competence.
00:17:36.740Diligence is – to make it really easy, I mean, we've got lots of all these signs for it.
00:17:40.100But diligence is, do they have the energy and drive to accomplish the things that they have laid out verbally?
00:17:48.060So that's just diligence, really simple.
00:18:07.240You know, he had a great background, great resume for what we're doing.
00:18:11.100And then as the days kept ticking on and we kept waiting for milestones to be met and deadlines to be met, nothing, nothing, nothing.
00:18:21.060He just kept talking circles and he became more and more vague because he really lacked the competence in order to achieve the technical aspects of what we're trying to do.
00:18:31.340And it's basically the people aspects of what we're trying to bring in.
00:18:34.680So his reliability then went way down.
00:18:36.760At the same time, someone can be really, you know, competent in a certain area, but they don't have the energy to follow through on it.
00:18:44.320When you're looking at reliability, do you lean towards giving more weight to diligence or competence?
00:18:48.740I'm looking at that diligence because I figure I can teach anyone to flip a switch.
00:18:54.180What I can't do is teach you humility to open your mind to the fact that it might be another way to do it.
00:18:58.660And so I'm looking for diligence with an open mind.
00:19:02.780Right. So you can teach a person to be competent at their job usually because you can teach them the skill part of the job, but it's harder to teach motivation, both of the job itself, as well as the motivation to examine where you're falling short and where you need to improve.
00:19:16.100And people need to have that energy and diligence to want to get better.
00:19:19.580So another thing you're looking at when you're sussing up whether someone's trustworthy are their actions.
00:19:24.380What specific actions are you looking at to see if someone's trustworthy?
00:19:27.300So this, this to me became one of the first ones I identified.
00:19:31.920And I, I love the phrase, you know, the definition of crazy is doing the same thing again and expecting a different result.
00:19:39.020So that to me is, is where actions came from.
00:19:41.440In other words, if I can see and observe what you do two or three times, I can almost guarantee what you're going to do the fourth.
00:19:47.660And so I am always looking, you know, I frame it in the book for, you know, signs of positive actions, but I'm actually just looking for what you do.
00:19:57.160I don't care if it's positive or negative.
00:19:59.060If I see how you interact, you know, if it's to say you're a boss and I see you consistently micromanaging people, I can almost guarantee if I see you micromanaging Jane, Mary and Tom, I can almost guarantee you're going to micromanage Jack as well.
00:20:14.580And so if you don't wind up micromanaging Jack, well, there's something different about Jack.
00:20:19.060We've got to figure out what Jack's doing in order to not have micromanaged.
00:20:21.700So I like seeing past patterns of key behaviors because if I can observe you doing something a couple of times, I don't live with that, that thing called hope.
00:20:30.220I don't hope you're going to do different next time.
00:20:32.040No, I know exactly what you're going to do next time.
00:20:34.340And again, this is all context specific.
00:20:45.420So what are you looking for in the way someone talks to figure out if they're trustworthy or not?
00:20:49.860The language, this is the one I absolutely love the most because this is where, you know, the code of trust was how do I demonstrate value and affiliation to others?
00:20:58.240I'm going to do one of four things, if not multiples in everything I say and do.
00:21:02.140I'm going to be seeking your thoughts and opinions and we're talking in terms of your priorities.
00:21:06.540I'm going to be validating you and your thoughts and ideas without judging you.
00:21:11.400So those four things tell the other person that it's all about you and when I'm demonstrating those things, I'm demonstrating that I want to affiliate with you and I'm demonstrating that I value you and your dopamine in your brain is flowing.
00:21:36.040So that's what I'm looking for in language.
00:21:38.040And it's a very easy thing to see, you know, after whether you're live in a conversation or you're in an email, you can go line by line and ask yourself, is that sentence about me or is it about them?
00:21:49.060And I'm hoping what I'm looking for is a preponderance of the conversation is centered on me if I'm assessing someone for trustworthiness.
00:21:56.840I love the story because with each of these principles, you use a story from your own career to highlight it.
00:22:01.160The story in this one was a lot of fun because this is like right after you retired from the FBI and you started working as a consultant for companies and you had this guy who came in and was like a smooth talker, but then you just sort of keying in like, I don't know if I can trust this guy.
00:22:14.420Yeah, it was a really fascinating experience.
00:22:16.480So it was a big corporation kind of thing and they do a lot of intel research and he did a great job.
00:22:23.140He reached out for me via email and he had all those key things in his first email to me.
00:22:28.680He says, Robin, I did a lot of research on you and I read your books.
00:22:33.440I listened to great podcasts on art of manliness and you have exactly what we're looking for because you have all these great skills and my company is all about building trust really quickly.
00:22:46.880And we do a lot of cold calls, but it's all about building trust and building health relationships.
00:22:57.860He's seeking my thoughts and opinions, talking in terms of my priorities, validating me and empower me with choices.
00:23:02.780And so I was all in thinking this was going to be awesome.
00:23:06.140But when I showed up on site, what happened was he, first of all, he really, he shifted, you know, he sold a great bill of goods, you know, and, you know, he shifted it to basically he overworked me hard.
00:24:10.020He goes, yeah, but these people don't have your skills.
00:24:11.920We need to script, go through our scripts.
00:24:13.460So that became the first sign of, huh, came to be, he was actually trying to get me to help them to manipulate people.
00:24:20.580And I came, I actually told him that, you know, by the end of it, I said, I said, you know, I'd love to do this for you, but my brand isn't manipulation.
00:24:27.320And you're, at the end of the day, you're trying to manipulate people because you're using a lot of subterfuse.
00:24:31.480You're trying to control time without transparency.
00:24:33.980And I also think you're targeting the wrong person to talk to because you're trying to convince a low-level guy to give you information.
00:24:46.800The only way we can inspire that low-level guy is to have this boss above him and allow him to.
00:24:50.200I said, so I would go after the guy above him and actually share with him what you're trying to achieve and empower him with the choice whether he wants to do it or not.
00:25:43.500Actually, what was really funny was he didn't know my relationships with these people, which I thought was a dangerous thing that he did for someone who's so skilled.
00:26:28.760You know, so and that's the big thing with language.
00:26:30.660If people are talking trash about other people to you, they're trying to engender trust through negative talking, that's a really bad sign of trust.
00:26:40.660Sometimes the cues or the signs in language are a little more subtle, either be pay attention to it.
00:26:46.260And this is a good example of your story that even if someone shows signs of trustworthy behavior on one of these principles, you have to look at the bigger picture or else you might be led astray.
00:26:59.060You know, I always look at it like this.
00:27:00.300You know, every moment is very different.
00:27:03.360And we can start out very good like this guy did.
00:27:05.660And all of a sudden, if something makes you feel a little different or a little awkward or something just doesn't feel right, that means something shifted on their behalf.
00:27:14.660And now you just examine it, you know, and and don't wait for it to get better.
00:27:20.140Kind of, you know, I don't like waiting for things to get better.
00:27:24.660If you I guess what I guarantee if you just blow it off and don't pay attention to it, you're probably going to get burned by it.
00:27:30.460So I'm not saying at the first sign of something going sideways, I bail.
00:27:35.140But if I see it two or three more times, because now I'm paying attention to it, that's when that's when I either have a good, honest discussion or I just back away because that is someone who's not trying to do healthy things.
00:27:46.900So the final thing you're looking at is stability.
00:28:45.300So I'm always looking for good emotional stability because those are the types of people that are maintaining good cognitive thought.
00:28:50.680So yeah, some signs, some of those negative signs that you talk about that I think people have, we've talked about on the podcast a couple times before with other guests, like catastrophizing, right?
00:28:58.720And if someone's constantly saying, like, if the problem comes up, this is the worst thing to ever happen.
00:29:39.580And then those positive signs to me, when I, when I was going through this in the book, I was like, well, if they're just, I mean, if they're a cool person, you can probably trust them.
00:29:45.960Like in these things, like they're flexible.
00:29:47.260Like if something comes up, they're able to roll with the punches.
00:29:50.120You know, they, they follow the code of trust.
00:29:58.900And they remain calm, cool, and collected in every situation and have no problem sharing glory with others.
00:30:04.300I like the story you told in the book about the Russian general who had a strong position of authority, who could have used his power to dress you down, but he didn't overreact to your request and instead gave a denial that was simply straightforward, which was actually a good sign and made you respect him more.
00:30:19.900So that was a, that was a really interesting situation.
00:30:22.380So here is this, this Russian general and, you know, the story I gave in the book, wasn't the only time we tried to, uh, we tried to get in front of him and offer him an opportunity for him and his family to have a different life is the way I like to put it.
00:30:36.100But instead of, you know, getting emotionally hijacked and running off to the state department or protesting with the ambassador, this guy was just calm, cool and collected it.
00:30:45.000And I loved his response, you know, after, after we, you know, had a contact of ours, let him know, Hey, I got a guy from special services referring to me that would love to have a conversation with you about X, Y, and Z.
00:30:56.420His response was, well, if he'd like to have a professional conversation with me, he should go through my secretary and contact me at the mission.