The Art of Manliness - #577： An FBI Agent's 6 Signs for Sizing People Up

00:00:00.000 I'm Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.060 Every day, we have to make choices on whether we can trust someone or not.

00:00:14.040 If we make the wrong choice, it can mean a failed relationship or business partnership

00:00:17.080 and all the emotional and financial costs that follow.

00:00:19.400 My guest day has spent his career sizing people up in high-stakes situations.

00:00:22.740 His name is Robin Dreek.

00:00:23.860 He spent two decades working as a behavioral analyst for the FBI, and in his new book,

00:00:27.620 Sizing People Up, a veteran FBI agent's user manual for behavior prediction.

00:00:31.300 He shares the tips everyone can use in determining whether or not someone is trustworthy.

00:00:35.120 We begin our conversation discussing how Robin's latest book builds off the work he did in the code of trust

00:00:39.180 and the consequences of sizing people up incorrectly.

00:00:41.760 Robin then shares the overarching framework he recommends using when you want to figure out if you can trust someone or not.

00:00:46.760 Then we spend the rest of our conversation digging into the six specific signs you should look for

00:00:50.760 when you're figuring out if you want to enter into a personal or professional relationship with someone

00:00:54.540 and you're trying to predict their future behavior.

00:00:56.340 After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash sizingpeopleup.

00:01:13.320 All right.

00:01:14.340 Robin Dreek, welcome back to the show.

00:01:17.260 I'm flabbergasted and extremely excited to be back on your awesome show, so thanks very much.

00:01:21.700 So we had you on last time.

00:01:23.140 It's been a few years.

00:01:24.120 Talk about your book, The Code of Trust.

00:01:25.820 You got a new book out, Sizing People Up, A Veteran FBI Agent's User Manual for Behavior Prediction.

00:01:31.860 How does this book build off the first book, The Code of Trust?

00:01:34.820 It's a great question.

00:01:35.780 I've been asked for it a lot lately, and it was actually a very natural progression and one that I never anticipated.

00:01:42.560 So The Code of Trust is all about behavior you can have to inspire trust in others.

00:01:46.900 And what happened was The Code of Trust is about focusing on others and how they want to be interacted with and knowing how to demonstrate affiliation, knowing how to demonstrate value to them.

00:01:56.820 And it made me focus so much on other people that I really started understanding, well, wow, other people, if you really focus on them really hard, they become really easy to predict.

00:02:06.140 Because what every person basically wants is to be affiliated and valued by individuals, and they're always going to act in their own best interest.

00:02:14.320 And so all I got to do is figure out what that is, and I can predict their behavior.

00:02:17.180 So that's where they all sprang from.

00:02:18.400 And like in The Code of Trust, I mean, so your background is you worked for the FBI in their behavioral analysis department.

00:02:25.140 And like what your job was, like you were trying to like find spies here in the country and get information from them.

00:02:30.800 And what made you successful at that job wasn't doing like the subterfuge stuff.

00:02:34.340 It was simply just gaining that person's trust, and they would open up to you.

00:02:40.200 Yeah, I call it the toughest sales job in the face of the planet because my job was to recruit foreign spies. 1.00

00:02:46.080 My product was American patriotism, and foreign spies are typically foreign diplomats at diplomatic establishments, and so they're under diplomatic cover.

00:02:56.740 And so the funny thing is, so I'm selling a product of American patriotism to someone who probably doesn't want to buy it.

00:03:04.360 And the second challenge is it's illegal for me to actually make an approach to them because they're foreign diplomats as FBI agent.

00:03:10.760 And so try doing that in sales.

00:03:13.540 So you've got a product you want to sell that no one wants to buy, and it's illegal for you to talk to your potential clients.

00:03:18.700 And so I found over the years, I had these great mentors and guys, I call them Jedi Masters, who knew how to develop these amazing relationships.

00:03:29.020 And ultimately, at the end of the day, it wasn't coming down to subterfuge or deception or manipulation.

00:03:35.040 It came down to, can they trust you?

00:03:37.120 And from trust, you have relationships, and from relationships, you can get anything.

00:03:41.380 Well, the other part of your job is figuring out, can you trust someone?

00:03:43.960 Because someone could come to you and say, hey, I've got information, but you've got to be like, can I trust this guy?

00:03:48.900 Does he have an angle?

00:03:49.860 Is he going to backstab me?

00:03:51.540 So this is what sizing people up is about, learning how to predict whether you can trust someone or not.

00:03:56.700 Yeah, and the first thing I'd love to do is, you know, we as human beings love to use that word trust.

00:04:03.000 But what I first started realizing was, man, trust is a very subjective word.

00:04:07.620 You know, we as human beings really use a lot of our own subjective, you know, angles on it, whether it's our own ethics and morals.

00:04:15.440 And we use liking a lot of times.

00:04:17.080 You know, we think we can trust someone just because they like them.

00:04:19.540 The analogy I love to use is, you know, I've got a best friend.

00:04:23.320 I'm a pilot.

00:04:23.940 He's not a pilot.

00:04:24.660 I can't really throw him the keys to the plane and say, hey, fly the plane.

00:04:27.940 I can trust you.

00:04:29.100 You know, it's so liking someone and just because they share your same morals and ethics doesn't necessarily mean you can trust them.

00:04:35.340 So I quickly shift trust into predictability because it really comes down to what can I reasonably predict this human being or this person is going to do.

00:04:44.420 And really the whole point of that is so I can manage my expectations and so I can make good cognitive choices so that I can keep that good, healthy relationship in all situations.

00:04:53.000 So it sounds like trust is context specific.

00:04:55.700 Like you said, you could trust maybe your best friend to keep a secret about something that's personal, but you wouldn't trust him to fly a plane.

00:05:01.440 Yeah.

00:05:01.920 It's very, you know, I love keeping things in lanes, you know, and because if someone blows trust in one area because they lacked confidence maybe in it, doesn't mean you can't trust them in other lanes of their life.

00:05:13.620 And the analogy you just get was great, you know what I mean?

00:05:16.160 So, you know, I trust someone because they're a good friend of mine and they take care of the house really well so I can trust them to watch my house.

00:05:22.200 But you know what?

00:05:23.400 He has no confidence in a few of these other areas, so I would never ask him to do that.

00:05:27.920 But sometimes people do, then they're disappointed, then they get angry, and there goes the relationship.

00:05:32.860 And what are the consequences of – I mean, I guess everyone – I guess people know the consequences if you trust someone you know you shouldn't have trust.

00:05:40.620 I mean, in your line of work, it could have been, you know, the difference between whether stopping a terrorist attack or something.

00:05:46.420 In our personal lives, it can be a ruined marriage, a bad business deal, et cetera.

00:05:51.260 Yeah, the consequences to me – it's so funny.

00:05:54.700 The book – I did the book for many reasons at multiple levels.

00:05:58.600 If you want to take it at a very surface level, you know, you can say, all right, I'm having a couple interactions with people in a boardroom.

00:06:04.320 I want to see who I can size up and who I can trust and not trust.

00:06:07.220 Okay, that'll work.

00:06:08.600 But what's the real purpose behind it?

00:06:10.300 And the real purpose behind it for me was, you know, who can I – I just wanted to have good, healthy relationships because, you know,

00:06:18.040 both the bedrock of the code of trust and sizing people up is what I found doing this whole thing is whether it's recruiting spies

00:06:25.460 or selling products or dealing with my kids or my wife, I want healthy relationships in my life

00:06:31.060 because when you have healthy relationships, you can accomplish anything.

00:06:35.160 And I tell this to my kids all the time.

00:06:36.600 You know, I have very – you know, I suffered that proud parent syndrome.

00:06:39.380 You know, my son's at the Naval Academy.

00:06:40.820 My daughter's about to graduate as a nurse.

00:06:43.000 And I've got great kids, and they've got great genetics and biology from my wife, not me.

00:06:48.520 And I say to them all the time, I said, you have the greatest biology and genetics on the planet. 0.99

00:06:53.640 But without relationships, you might as well be a moron on top of a mountain by yourself 0.99

00:06:57.440 because you can't achieve anything without relationships. 0.98

00:07:00.260 So really the whole bedrock of everything I do is about maintaining, fostering, and growing good, healthy relationships.

00:07:07.660 And sizing people up helps you do that because it helps you manage your expectations about what you can reasonably expect someone to do

00:07:14.140 because if you focus so hard on these six signs, you actually know what you can reasonably expect this person can do in each situation.

00:07:22.920 And now here's the great thing about it.

00:07:24.600 They're either going to meet that expectation or exceed it.

00:07:27.280 And now if they fall short of it, because you took so much due diligence in figuring them out,

00:07:32.980 if they fall short of it, you know something went sideways in their life.

00:07:36.320 And now you can be a resource for them and whatever went sideways.

00:07:39.360 And so again, it maintains a good, healthy relationship without getting frustrated, angry, resentment, all those negative emotions.

00:07:46.820 Well, I think I'd love that that's the big theme throughout both of these books,

00:07:49.440 The Code of Trust and Sizing People Up, is that trust, when trust is there, it makes your life so much more efficient.

00:07:55.240 Because instead of having to take a business deal, instead of having to make every little decision a contract, right,

00:08:03.080 where you get a piece of paper, you can say, hey, will you do this?

00:08:06.300 And they do it, just streamline the whole thing because there's that trust that exists.

00:08:10.800 It's streamlined everything in life.

00:08:12.940 Before I retired, I was still working counterintelligence.

00:08:16.860 And you can't do anything inside the FBI or any law enforcement without confidential human sources.

00:08:23.700 People being a resource for national security, that was my thing.

00:08:27.700 And I had what I called the Magnificent Seven.

00:08:30.220 These seven human beings were the most awesome patriots, great friends, great people I've ever been part of.

00:08:37.900 And I always use the analogy, you know, I'd rather have seven people give me 120% of their effort willingly

00:08:44.200 than 150 people give me 5% reluctantly.

00:08:47.360 Because those seven people, if you have a healthy relationship with them, it's very, like you said, it's very calming.

00:08:52.600 Things become very easy because there's no drama.

00:08:56.100 And the effect on them, they now start seeing in their lives, they stop being tolerant of other unhealthy relationships.

00:09:02.960 And so they start getting healthy.

00:09:03.920 So it's that six-degree separation of Kevin Bacon thing.

00:09:07.460 These seven people might not have all the answers, but they know someone who has the answers.

00:09:11.360 I've never had to go more than two degrees deep in order to find the answers we needed to have in order to protect national security.

00:09:17.660 So in your work, and then you lay this out in the book, you found six signs of behavior prediction on whether you can trust someone or not.

00:09:24.220 But before we get into these specific signs, let's talk about the overarching framework you discuss in the book about sizing people up.

00:09:32.040 So what are the big picture things that people need to keep in the back of their mind when they're interacting with someone

00:09:38.160 and they're trying to figure out, can I trust this person?

00:09:40.420 So I think the easiest thing to think about is us as human beings, what is every single human being on this planet hardwired to do?

00:09:49.380 We're all hardwired for safety, security, and prosperity for ourselves.

00:09:53.740 That's it.

00:09:54.640 We want to be safe.

00:09:55.940 We want to be secure.

00:09:56.920 And we want to be prosperous.

00:09:58.500 So all I have to do is figure out what the other person, from their point of view, thinks will grant them safety, security, and prosperity.

00:10:07.420 If they're a little more altruistic, it'll go out to their family a little more, to their community a little more, maybe to their nation.

00:10:14.940 But that's it.

00:10:15.760 We're genetically hardwired for safety, security, and prosperity.

00:10:19.280 And so if you understand that and remember that every time you're interacting with someone, all you've got to figure out is focus on that and figure out what they think is in their own best interest.

00:10:29.040 Because people will always act in their own best interests.

00:10:31.980 And then the other thing you talk about, too, is you want to keep your feelings out of it.

00:10:35.320 Like, again, going back to that subjectivity.

00:10:37.220 Just because you like someone doesn't necessarily mean you can trust them.

00:10:40.700 Yeah.

00:10:40.880 And that can be very difficult because I know we get emotionally attached to things, we get emotionally attached to people, and we get emotionally hijacked.

00:10:47.580 You know, the real reason I love the code of trust and I love sizing people up is because it keeps that irrational brain where we have these emotional impulses for fight or flight.

00:10:56.760 It helps you remember, keep cognitive.

00:10:59.960 Is what I'm doing actually helping or hindering a healthy relationship?

00:11:03.300 Is what I'm doing actually assessing what they are doing or not doing?

00:11:06.480 Or am I just emotionally reacting to what they're doing?

00:11:08.600 And then all throughout the book, you talk about this, is that Russian saying, trust but verify.

00:11:15.640 What does that look like?

00:11:17.100 It means that I generally will start out trusting you because human beings, you know, no one wants to be mistrusted or no one's looking to take advantage from the get-go.

00:11:28.000 They're just always going to act in their own best interest.

00:11:29.940 So I just start out understanding that you're going to act in your best interest, and I'm going to trust you to act in your best interest.

00:11:35.920 And so I'm going to trust it as long as it's overlapping with mine, and I'm going to look for signs that where some of these things might be going sideways and it might not be in my best interest to do that.

00:11:47.200 All right.

00:11:47.280 So the first principle, the first thing you look at that you can use to predict whether someone's trustworthy is vesting.

00:11:53.020 What do you mean by that?

00:11:54.200 So vesting is, you know, it becomes that symbiotic relationship is, are they actually doing things, you know, proactively that are good for you as well?

00:12:04.120 So that's what I'm really looking for in that.

00:12:06.260 It's not too hard to tell.

00:12:09.000 You know, there's a lot of, like I'm thinking back to the, you know, I actually use the story I used in the book.

00:12:13.760 You know, my very first confidential human source that I had in the FBI, this was a guy that had had, you know, 25 years working with the FBI, had 14 or 15 handlers before me, and some went sideways, some went well.

00:12:28.380 And I remember when I first started interacting with him, he really cared about my future, my success, because he knew, he loved being a source, he loved being a patriot, and he knew that if he could help me be successful, he would be a better patriot because he'd be able to do more as well.

00:12:46.460 So he was really vested in my success.

00:12:48.860 So what are some signs?

00:12:49.820 I mean, I think people know when someone's vested in your success, like they'll go out of the way to do things for you.

00:12:54.300 But what are some signs that someone's not vested in you?

00:12:56.920 Like proactively, you can say, okay, that person is definitely not vested in me.

00:13:00.660 So it's the reverse of these.

00:13:02.300 I like, I have the 10 for, the 10 for and the 10 against.

00:13:05.380 I like focused on the positive.

00:13:06.600 So just like the top three.

00:13:08.220 I like when people are talking in terms of my interests.

00:13:11.420 Contrary to that, they're talking in terms of their own interests.

00:13:14.520 I love when people have, you know, their own favors that they call in from other people for your behalf.

00:13:19.900 In other words, they're calling in favors of people they know, relationships they have to benefit you.

00:13:25.720 Converse of that is that you know they have these connections, and yet they're keeping them screened from you.

00:13:31.020 And another really big one I really love is when they start overlapping their lives with you.

00:13:35.720 So you have a professional relationship with someone, and all of a sudden, you know, they're inviting you to social engagements as well.

00:13:41.160 And the converse of that is when they're excluding you from these things.

00:13:43.960 So basically, any time where you see someone taking actions, where they're being selfless in the things they're doing, where they have no personal gain, but the gain is all for you, and they have no expectation or reciprocity for it.

00:13:56.300 That is someone that's totally vested in you.

00:13:58.060 Well, that second one's important because I think everyone's encountered that thing where people look like they're vested.

00:14:02.480 Like, hey, I'm doing this thing for you, but you're like, this feels weird.

00:14:05.400 Like, I don't, there's an angle here, and I don't like it.

00:14:08.380 Right.

00:14:08.860 And that's the thing.

00:14:09.680 And that's why, you know, my third anchor, so I have these three anchors for everything I do.

00:14:13.800 My number one anchor for everything I do is, number one, healthy professional relationship.

00:14:18.880 Number two is open, honest, communication, and transparency, because I can't have the healthy relationship without that.

00:14:24.520 My third is, is be a resource for the success and prosperity of others without expectation or reciprocity, because when you make yourself available for others as a resource without that expectation, that's when it becomes a good, healthy relationship.

00:14:37.920 So that's what I'm looking for as well.

00:14:39.180 So people that are vested do that.

00:14:41.480 We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:14:44.040 And now back to the show.

00:14:45.920 So a second principle, second thing you look at is longevity.

00:14:49.020 How is that a sign of trust?

00:14:51.000 So longevity is, it's really simple.

00:14:53.100 It's, it's believing that the relationship they have with you is going to last a long time, or at least beyond, you know, a quid pro quo of a quick sale.

00:15:01.180 So I've had, you know, I've had some people I've worked with that were, you know, quick, you know, two, three, four meetings and out.

00:15:08.000 And then I have, I've got a few people that, I mean, I'm still friends with them now, you know, I retired, I retired, you know, over a year ago.

00:15:16.560 And I am, I have people I was in contact with over 20 years ago in New York, and I am still in contact with them today.

00:15:23.440 We exchange gift baskets every year.

00:15:25.160 So that is someone that you know, is a lot, you know, a long thing.

00:15:28.260 So you can do it, you have in your personal life, as well, whether it's someone that you marry, it's those lifelong friends that you grew up with.

00:15:36.160 And you have, you know, and even in neighborhoods, you know, say you move from place to place, but you know, you don't carry everyone forward with you.

00:15:43.220 But a few of them, you wind up carrying forward with you.

00:15:45.580 Well, you talk about in your, in your job, sometimes you only had like, one meeting to figure out, is this guy in for the long run?

00:15:51.940 So what did you do as an FBI agent when you're talking to a diplomat?

00:15:57.220 Can I trust this guy?

00:15:58.160 And this is the only meeting you maybe would have gotten maybe for a year.

00:16:01.620 What were you looking at?

00:16:03.420 Right.

00:16:03.620 So if we're going to look in the terms of longevity, I'm looking for the things he's looking to do.

00:16:08.220 You know, if he starts having language about, you know, where he's going to live, where he's going to place his kids in school, and how I'm going to be part of that.

00:16:17.380 And he is asking me questions about my career, and would I still be in contact with him, you know, in five years from now?

00:16:24.360 You know, so I'm looking for that kind of language.

00:16:25.860 I'm also looking for things like rituals.

00:16:28.560 You know, lots of cultures have different rituals.

00:16:30.820 And when I first met this one guy from the Middle East, I remember he had this favorite, you know, chai tea that him and his brother would have.

00:16:39.960 And I remember at the very – I learned that in the first meeting.

00:16:43.440 At the second meeting, I actually bought that chai tea with me, and we shared that together.

00:16:47.380 So we established a ritual that became every time we got together, we had that.

00:16:51.380 And then he initiated a ritual where he sent me a gift basket at Thanksgiving every year full of cookies.

00:16:59.280 It was the most innocuous, smallest thing, but I then reciprocated at the, you know, at the New Year, sent him in one in kind.

00:17:07.260 And we've been doing that since 2001.

00:17:10.260 So anything where you establish rituals is part of it as well.

00:17:13.800 Right.

00:17:14.180 Well, and then a third principle you look at is reliability.

00:17:16.640 And this goes to that point we were talking about earlier, you know, you might trust your friend for, you know, keeping a secret for whatever reason.

00:17:23.680 But you might not trust him to fly a plane because he's not reliable to fly a plane.

00:17:28.500 So what are you looking at to figure out if someone's reliable or not?

00:17:31.340 Yes, reliability, we break it really into two things, both diligence and competence.

00:17:36.740 Diligence is – to make it really easy, I mean, we've got lots of all these signs for it.

00:17:40.100 But diligence is, do they have the energy and drive to accomplish the things that they have laid out verbally?

00:17:48.060 So that's just diligence, really simple.

00:17:49.960 And competence is really even easier.

00:17:52.360 Do they actually have the skills to do what they say they're going to do?

00:17:55.340 You know, and we've all seen this in our lives.

00:17:57.560 You know, the example I use, you know, in the book is I was working with this guy that was placed in charge of this task force.

00:18:04.480 And he talked a great game.

00:18:07.240 You know, he had a great background, great resume for what we're doing.

00:18:11.100 And then as the days kept ticking on and we kept waiting for milestones to be met and deadlines to be met, nothing, nothing, nothing.

00:18:21.060 He just kept talking circles and he became more and more vague because he really lacked the competence in order to achieve the technical aspects of what we're trying to do.

00:18:31.340 And it's basically the people aspects of what we're trying to bring in.

00:18:34.680 So his reliability then went way down.

00:18:36.760 At the same time, someone can be really, you know, competent in a certain area, but they don't have the energy to follow through on it.

00:18:42.120 So reliability is a big one.

00:18:44.320 When you're looking at reliability, do you lean towards giving more weight to diligence or competence?

00:18:48.740 I'm looking at that diligence because I figure I can teach anyone to flip a switch.

00:18:54.180 What I can't do is teach you humility to open your mind to the fact that it might be another way to do it.

00:18:58.660 And so I'm looking for diligence with an open mind.

00:19:02.780 Right. So you can teach a person to be competent at their job usually because you can teach them the skill part of the job, but it's harder to teach motivation, both of the job itself, as well as the motivation to examine where you're falling short and where you need to improve.

00:19:16.100 And people need to have that energy and diligence to want to get better.

00:19:19.580 So another thing you're looking at when you're sussing up whether someone's trustworthy are their actions.

00:19:24.380 What specific actions are you looking at to see if someone's trustworthy?

00:19:27.300 So this, this to me became one of the first ones I identified.

00:19:31.920 And I, I love the phrase, you know, the definition of crazy is doing the same thing again and expecting a different result.

00:19:39.020 So that to me is, is where actions came from.

00:19:41.440 In other words, if I can see and observe what you do two or three times, I can almost guarantee what you're going to do the fourth.

00:19:47.660 And so I am always looking, you know, I frame it in the book for, you know, signs of positive actions, but I'm actually just looking for what you do.

00:19:57.160 I don't care if it's positive or negative.

00:19:59.060 If I see how you interact, you know, if it's to say you're a boss and I see you consistently micromanaging people, I can almost guarantee if I see you micromanaging Jane, Mary and Tom, I can almost guarantee you're going to micromanage Jack as well.

00:20:14.580 And so if you don't wind up micromanaging Jack, well, there's something different about Jack.

00:20:19.060 We've got to figure out what Jack's doing in order to not have micromanaged.

00:20:21.700 So I like seeing past patterns of key behaviors because if I can observe you doing something a couple of times, I don't live with that, that thing called hope.

00:20:30.220 I don't hope you're going to do different next time.

00:20:32.040 No, I know exactly what you're going to do next time.

00:20:34.340 And again, this is all context specific.

00:20:36.740 Yes, absolutely.

00:20:38.280 Another thing you're looking at is language, but like language is tricky because people, that's how people deceive, right?

00:20:44.300 It was with words.

00:20:45.420 So what are you looking for in the way someone talks to figure out if they're trustworthy or not?

00:20:49.860 The language, this is the one I absolutely love the most because this is where, you know, the code of trust was how do I demonstrate value and affiliation to others?

00:20:58.240 I'm going to do one of four things, if not multiples in everything I say and do.

00:21:02.140 I'm going to be seeking your thoughts and opinions and we're talking in terms of your priorities.

00:21:06.540 I'm going to be validating you and your thoughts and ideas without judging you.

00:21:10.120 And I'm going to be adding choices.

00:21:11.400 So those four things tell the other person that it's all about you and when I'm demonstrating those things, I'm demonstrating that I want to affiliate with you and I'm demonstrating that I value you and your dopamine in your brain is flowing.

00:21:23.620 So now reverse it.

00:21:25.040 What I'm looking for in language from someone else, I'm looking for the same things.

00:21:29.040 Are they seeking my thoughts and opinions?

00:21:30.700 Are they talking in terms of my priorities?

00:21:32.860 Are they validating me without judging me?

00:21:35.040 And are they giving me choices?

00:21:36.040 So that's what I'm looking for in language.

00:21:38.040 And it's a very easy thing to see, you know, after whether you're live in a conversation or you're in an email, you can go line by line and ask yourself, is that sentence about me or is it about them?

00:21:49.060 And I'm hoping what I'm looking for is a preponderance of the conversation is centered on me if I'm assessing someone for trustworthiness.

00:21:56.840 I love the story because with each of these principles, you use a story from your own career to highlight it.

00:22:01.160 The story in this one was a lot of fun because this is like right after you retired from the FBI and you started working as a consultant for companies and you had this guy who came in and was like a smooth talker, but then you just sort of keying in like, I don't know if I can trust this guy.

00:22:14.420 Yeah, it was a really fascinating experience.

00:22:16.480 So it was a big corporation kind of thing and they do a lot of intel research and he did a great job.

00:22:23.140 He reached out for me via email and he had all those key things in his first email to me.

00:22:28.680 He says, Robin, I did a lot of research on you and I read your books.

00:22:32.240 I saw your blogs.

00:22:33.440 I listened to great podcasts on art of manliness and you have exactly what we're looking for because you have all these great skills and my company is all about building trust really quickly.

00:22:46.880 And we do a lot of cold calls, but it's all about building trust and building health relationships.

00:22:51.540 We'd love for you to come out.

00:22:52.880 We'd love to hear your thoughts and opinions on what we can do.

00:22:55.160 How does that sound to you?

00:22:56.580 Again, they had all those elements.

00:22:57.860 He's seeking my thoughts and opinions, talking in terms of my priorities, validating me and empower me with choices.

00:23:02.780 And so I was all in thinking this was going to be awesome.

00:23:06.140 But when I showed up on site, what happened was he, first of all, he really, he shifted, you know, he sold a great bill of goods, you know, and, you know, he shifted it to basically he overworked me hard.

00:23:18.320 It was, it was hilarious.

00:23:19.580 I land in the plane, you know, coming off the plane and we knew really, and I think it's like six o'clock at night.

00:23:24.460 My flight landed, it's out in, I mean, I say it's in California.

00:23:28.380 I always hide the, hide where the people actually are to protect the, protect the innocent.

00:23:32.460 But it was, it was about a four or five hour flight.

00:23:35.560 And I thought I was going to take an Uber to the airport.

00:23:37.800 He picks me up in his big, he had a Range Rover, picks me up in his Range Rover.

00:23:42.600 And I was like, oh, that's really nice.

00:23:44.060 I figured he was going to bring me to the, you know, bring me to the hotel, six o'clock at night. 0.72

00:23:47.020 And he frigging brings me back to the office and his entire office is still there.

00:23:50.140 And he starts throwing files at me to go through and start changing language and scripts. 0.96

00:23:54.120 And I was like, huh, isn't that interesting?

00:23:57.640 And first thing he did was, hey, we use scripts.

00:24:00.300 I was like scripts.

00:24:01.240 I said, you know, good, I said, good rapport and relationship and trust developers.

00:24:05.960 You know, they listen to the other person, so they don't, not scripting.

00:24:08.340 So they can listen and pay attention.

00:24:10.020 He goes, yeah, but these people don't have your skills.

00:24:11.920 We need to script, go through our scripts.

00:24:13.460 So that became the first sign of, huh, came to be, he was actually trying to get me to help them to manipulate people.

00:24:20.580 And I came, I actually told him that, you know, by the end of it, I said, I said, you know, I'd love to do this for you, but my brand isn't manipulation.

00:24:27.320 And you're, at the end of the day, you're trying to manipulate people because you're using a lot of subterfuse.

00:24:31.480 You're trying to control time without transparency.

00:24:33.980 And I also think you're targeting the wrong person to talk to because you're trying to convince a low-level guy to give you information.

00:24:40.640 And he won't.

00:24:41.660 How, you know, I'm always thinking that you can't convince that low-level guy.

00:24:44.800 How can I inspire him to want to?

00:24:46.800 The only way we can inspire that low-level guy is to have this boss above him and allow him to.

00:24:50.200 I said, so I would go after the guy above him and actually share with him what you're trying to achieve and empower him with the choice whether he wants to do it or not.

00:24:56.760 Anyway, I walked away from that one.

00:24:58.000 So, yeah, it was a good lesson on language.

00:24:59.980 Right.

00:25:00.160 So, yeah, I mean, he was using the right words, but then you had to do the verify.

00:25:03.960 You had to look at the other principles or other behaviors.

00:25:06.380 You looked at his actions, and you're like, well, this guy can't trust him.

00:25:10.360 Yeah, his actions were incongruent with the words he was using.

00:25:12.880 And then he started shifting the words and the language up, too.

00:25:17.080 So, he caught me.

00:25:18.160 He had me bite the hook because he was using the right things.

00:25:21.520 But, yeah, his actions were not following up on it, without a doubt.

00:25:23.940 Well, then you also talked about, as you looked in retrospect, even in his language, there were some red flags.

00:25:28.880 For example, he started bragging kind of subtly about his business that his company made.

00:25:34.020 Yeah, he was throwing down his resume.

00:25:36.140 He's throwing down the people he knew.

00:25:37.860 He was knocking some people.

00:25:38.840 He was knocking some former colleagues of yours that are now in the consulting game.

00:25:42.460 Yeah.

00:25:43.500 Actually, what was really funny was he didn't know my relationships with these people, which I thought was a dangerous thing that he did for someone who's so skilled.

00:25:54.540 I mentioned a book, two of the guys.

00:25:56.500 And, you know, I'll mention one of them.

00:25:58.560 He's a good friend of mine, Joe Navarro.

00:26:00.640 He mentioned Joe Navarro.

00:26:02.280 And he started knocking him with something.

00:26:04.040 I'm like, dude, you are talking trash about the wrong dude to me because I know him really well and he's a good friend.

00:26:11.160 And he's got mad skills. 0.97

00:26:13.040 And the fact that you're kind of knocking him shows me where actually your narcissism is.

00:26:19.860 Right.

00:26:20.220 Well, the other thing to keep in mind is, well, if you're talking about this guy like that, are you going to talk about me?

00:26:26.580 Like that when I'm not here?

00:26:27.940 Yeah, absolutely.

00:26:28.760 You know, so and that's the big thing with language.

00:26:30.660 If people are talking trash about other people to you, they're trying to engender trust through negative talking, that's a really bad sign of trust.

00:26:39.340 All right.

00:26:39.440 So it's a great example of the story.

00:26:40.660 Sometimes the cues or the signs in language are a little more subtle, either be pay attention to it.

00:26:46.260 And this is a good example of your story that even if someone shows signs of trustworthy behavior on one of these principles, you have to look at the bigger picture or else you might be led astray.

00:26:56.820 Yeah, just constantly assess.

00:26:59.060 You know, I always look at it like this.

00:27:00.300 You know, every moment is very different.

00:27:03.360 And we can start out very good like this guy did.

00:27:05.660 And all of a sudden, if something makes you feel a little different or a little awkward or something just doesn't feel right, that means something shifted on their behalf.

00:27:14.660 And now you just examine it, you know, and and don't wait for it to get better.

00:27:20.140 Kind of, you know, I don't like waiting for things to get better.

00:27:22.580 It's like, oh, you just blow it off.

00:27:24.660 If you I guess what I guarantee if you just blow it off and don't pay attention to it, you're probably going to get burned by it.

00:27:30.460 So I'm not saying at the first sign of something going sideways, I bail.

00:27:35.140 But if I see it two or three more times, because now I'm paying attention to it, that's when that's when I either have a good, honest discussion or I just back away because that is someone who's not trying to do healthy things.

00:27:46.900 So the final thing you're looking at is stability.

00:27:49.300 What do you mean by stability?

00:27:50.720 Oh, the best one of them all.

00:27:52.540 I'm looking for emotional stability.

00:27:55.020 Does this person freak out?

00:27:57.140 Are they emotionally hijacked?

00:27:58.920 And how frequently do I mean, everyone has their moments, right?

00:28:01.640 Everyone has moments where they just have, you know, they get frustrated, they get angry at something.

00:28:08.100 But how frequently is it and how rational is it?

00:28:11.480 And most importantly, do they have tools to deal with it and do they move on quickly from it?

00:28:16.100 Ideally, you want no emotional hijacking.

00:28:18.560 You want someone that's completely stable, that never freaks out at any situation.

00:28:23.560 And because I mean, this is what happens throughout my career.

00:28:25.480 You know, my wife is still amazed sometimes, you know, whether we're dealing with neighbors, friends or work.

00:28:30.900 You know, something will happen or something will drop some sort of, you know, social bomb on my lap.

00:28:35.920 And I'm like, huh, that's interesting.

00:28:38.620 All right, what do we do now?

00:28:40.320 You know, meanwhile, other people freak out.

00:28:42.040 They just blow up.

00:28:43.840 But that doesn't help anyone.

00:28:45.300 So I'm always looking for good emotional stability because those are the types of people that are maintaining good cognitive thought.

00:28:50.680 So yeah, some signs, some of those negative signs that you talk about that I think people have, we've talked about on the podcast a couple times before with other guests, like catastrophizing, right?

00:28:58.720 And if someone's constantly saying, like, if the problem comes up, this is the worst thing to ever happen.

00:29:04.340 That's not, that's not good.

00:29:05.660 Not stable.

00:29:07.100 Right.

00:29:07.360 They always feel like they're victims of everything.

00:29:09.980 They big one that you can really tell really easy with a lot of people.

00:29:13.440 They have a sense of entitlement with people.

00:29:15.480 They think that they're, you know, they're waiting to be rescued by their lotto or a rich relative on things.

00:29:21.780 They love blaming other people.

00:29:23.780 And the big thing is they're just really volatile.

00:29:26.500 You know, they overreact to every single situation, whether it's a news or whether it's a relative or some or co-worker.

00:29:33.260 And in the end, you know, you can really tell because they're ultimately the biggest manipulators in your office or attempting to be so.

00:29:39.520 Right.

00:29:39.580 And then those positive signs to me, when I, when I was going through this in the book, I was like, well, if they're just, I mean, if they're a cool person, you can probably trust them.

00:29:45.960 Like in these things, like they're flexible.

00:29:47.260 Like if something comes up, they're able to roll with the punches.

00:29:50.120 You know, they, they follow the code of trust.

00:29:51.780 Like they're humble.

00:29:52.760 They're nonjudgmental.

00:29:53.940 They're understanding.

00:29:55.240 They're appreciative.

00:29:55.960 Yeah.

00:29:56.400 Appreciative.

00:29:56.760 Like they're not hungry for power.

00:29:58.400 Yeah.

00:29:58.900 And they remain calm, cool, and collected in every situation and have no problem sharing glory with others.

00:30:04.300 I like the story you told in the book about the Russian general who had a strong position of authority, who could have used his power to dress you down, but he didn't overreact to your request and instead gave a denial that was simply straightforward, which was actually a good sign and made you respect him more.

00:30:19.620 Yeah.

00:30:19.900 So that was a, that was a really interesting situation.

00:30:22.380 So here is this, this Russian general and, you know, the story I gave in the book, wasn't the only time we tried to, uh, we tried to get in front of him and offer him an opportunity for him and his family to have a different life is the way I like to put it.

00:30:36.100 But instead of, you know, getting emotionally hijacked and running off to the state department or protesting with the ambassador, this guy was just calm, cool and collected it.

00:30:45.000 And I loved his response, you know, after, after we, you know, had a contact of ours, let him know, Hey, I got a guy from special services referring to me that would love to have a conversation with you about X, Y, and Z.

00:30:56.420 His response was, well, if he'd like to have a professional conversation with me, he should go through my secretary and contact me at the mission.

00:31:04.300 That was beautiful.

00:31:05.760 That was the most poetic.

00:31:06.960 No, I've ever gotten.

00:31:08.920 It was professional.

00:31:10.300 It was calm.

00:31:11.380 It didn't overreact.

00:31:12.320 And that was a message.

00:31:13.920 No, I do not want to have a conversation with this guy.

00:31:17.320 Right.

00:31:17.380 Cause what he could have done is he could have made a, yeah.

00:31:19.500 Protested somehow.

00:31:20.440 Oh, he could have, he could have flipped.

00:31:21.900 I mean, I've seen these guys run down the street.

00:31:24.100 I've seen them run away.

00:31:25.360 I've, I've seen people freak out.

00:31:27.620 It's really pretty funny what they'll do when confronted with something.

00:31:31.140 I mean, hell all I was doing was selling a product.

00:31:33.360 He didn't, all he had to do is say no, but some people really freak out.

00:31:37.900 So these are the six things.

00:31:39.600 I mean, does someone need to have all of these signs for you to trust them or do you got

00:31:42.840 to just show positives in a few?

00:31:45.500 Yeah, no, no.

00:31:46.520 I mean, I, I, I know very few, I mean, I'd have to really recollect hard to think of anyone

00:31:51.780 that has all of them.

00:31:52.680 Maybe my wife does. 1.00

00:31:53.660 Um, and, uh, but no, you know, cause what we're looking for is, you know, for if someone,

00:31:59.300 you know, has one or two and are really strong in them, oh, that's when you lean in, you know,

00:32:05.360 because basically you're just looking for someone not taking advantage of you and you want someone

00:32:09.920 who's self-aware and doesn't get emotionally hijacked, you know, and if you have those kinds

00:32:14.800 of core things go in there, these other ones give you a better clue, an idea about, you know,

00:32:19.740 where I can trust them, where, what areas that might need a little training in those kinds

00:32:23.980 of things.

00:32:24.320 But if you have a couple that's good enough, but again, it just gives you, it gives you

00:32:28.720 something to look for, you know, because assessing someone for trust with this is very, very

00:32:32.780 subjective.

00:32:33.260 And I outlined six signs, which are also kind of subjective, but when you have 10 tells

00:32:39.900 for and 10 behavioral tells against for each of these six signs, what you have is a lot

00:32:45.100 of data and a lot of ways to focus on the other person.

00:32:48.620 And so what happens is when you have that much observation, the subjective starts becoming

00:32:53.160 objective.

00:32:54.080 And so at least you're making some good, healthy choices about how to engage in what you could

00:32:58.020 reasonably expect someone else to do.

00:33:00.020 So when you're sizing someone up, is like stability, the first thing you're looking at is like,

00:33:03.240 is this person emotionally stable?

00:33:05.160 Yeah, I'm looking for stability first.

00:33:06.700 The second one is past patterns of behavior.

00:33:08.760 I'm looking for actions.

00:33:09.700 I'm looking for stability.

00:33:10.720 Probably next after that, I'm looking for competence and diligence, you know, as a subset 1.00

00:33:14.820 of that, you know, so those are the first ones.

00:33:16.520 But overarching with that emotional stability, I love people that are self-aware.

00:33:20.740 I love, you know, my favorite question ever when doing any kind of interview of bringing

00:33:25.060 someone on a team or someone I'm working with, or even just a friend, when I ask you

00:33:29.080 what your challenges are in life, I love the response where they're very open 0.96

00:33:32.940 about, all right, I kind of suck at X, Y, and Z.

00:33:35.860 And then the next thing out of their mouth is, and here's what I put in place to overcome 0.96

00:33:39.160 X, Y, and Z.

00:33:40.860 Because people are never looking for you to be perfect.

00:33:43.540 All they'd love to see is an effort and an awareness and no insecurities about sharing

00:33:48.380 it.

00:33:48.560 Because the people that are not insecure are the people you can really trust.

00:33:52.420 Well, Robin, where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:33:55.880 Sure.

00:33:56.840 PeopleFormula.com.

00:33:57.920 All one word.

00:33:59.380 PeopleFormula.com.

00:34:00.980 Tons of podcasts like yours on there.

00:34:03.080 I got lots of videos.

00:34:04.100 I got a free online training video right now on the Sixth Sign.

00:34:06.920 I mean, on the 10 Techniques of Quick Rapport.

00:34:08.640 More coming out.

00:34:09.920 And I'm on Twitter, on LinkedIn.

00:34:12.000 I'm all kind of all over the place.

00:34:13.340 And definitely reach out.

00:34:14.420 I'm very communicative.

00:34:16.120 And I love chatting and sharing.

00:34:17.860 Well, Robin Dreek, thanks so much for your time.

00:34:19.040 It's been a pleasure.

00:34:20.140 Hey, thanks for having me on again.

00:34:21.240 And allow me to share this fun content we can all benefit from.

00:34:24.620 My guest today is Robin Dreek.

00:34:25.720 He's the author of the book, Sizing People Up.

00:34:27.640 It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.

00:34:29.780 You can find out more information about his work at his website, peopleformula.com.

00:34:32.780 Also, check out our show notes at aom.is slash sizingpeopleup.

00:34:35.800 We can find links to resources where we delve deeper into this topic.

00:34:45.240 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast.

00:34:47.700 Check out our website at artofmanliness.com where you can find our podcast archives,

00:34:50.760 as well as over 3,500 articles we've written over the years about pretty much anything you can think of.

00:34:55.220 And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate if you take one minute to give us a review on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher.

00:34:59.020 It helps out a lot.

00:34:59.760 And if you've done that already, thank you.

00:35:01.160 Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who would think we'd get something out of it.

00:35:04.800 As always, thank you for the continued support.

00:35:06.640 Until next time, this is Brett McKay.

00:35:08.020 Remind you not only to listen to the AOM Podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

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The Art of Manliness - January 20, 2020

#577： An FBI Agent's 6 Signs for Sizing People Up

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