The Art of Manliness - #578： Figuring Out If You Should Change Careers (And How to Do It)

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast have you been

00:00:11.480 having doubts about your career recently or perhaps for quite some time maybe you're not

00:00:15.360 sure if you're in the right job or even the right field and you can't figure out if you

00:00:18.800 try to keep making your current position work or jump ship to something else then you'll likely

00:00:23.180 recognize yourself in the stages of career transition my guest will describe the day

00:00:26.760 name is joseph lu he's a consultant coach and speaker who helps people navigate the challenges

00:00:31.120 of switching careers in his work he's seen that there's a recurring pattern individuals follow

00:00:35.240 when thinking about and making this weighty decision which he calls the seven stages of

00:00:38.900 career change today on the show joseph walks us through these stages which begins with doubt

00:00:42.820 and dismay and in with reflection and relaunch with each stage joseph explains what typically

00:00:47.040 goes through people's minds common mistakes that are made and the best actions to take

00:00:50.840 which sometimes involves transitioning out of your current career sometimes does not we

00:00:54.560 need a conversation with practical considerations to keep in mind if you decide to make a change

00:00:58.720 after the show's over check out our show notes at awim.is slash career change

00:01:02.620 all right joseph lu welcome to the show thanks so much brett frank thanks for having me so you

00:01:16.860 have made a career for yourself helping people figure out whether they need to change careers and how

00:01:21.800 to do it but you yourself have also changed careers a few times in your lifetime can you tell us about

00:01:28.180 your story of career change and how you ended up doing what you're doing today sure brett well

00:01:32.040 first of all i should probably say i'm based in london in the united kingdom right now but i'm

00:01:36.260 originally from the united states where i spent most of my life and i'm about oh 20 years into my career

00:01:43.540 now and i've gone through three major changes that i think illustrate a few different types of career

00:01:49.560 changes your listeners might find themselves going through and i guess the first one that immediately

00:01:54.800 comes to mind is when i was walking away from something without knowing exactly where to head

00:02:00.640 next so back in the days when i was growing up in ohio and missouri i i grew up thinking that i wanted

00:02:08.420 to become a doctor so spent most of my childhood thinking i was going to become a physician one day and

00:02:13.940 then i got to medical school many years later and ended up uh quitting medical school after

00:02:19.820 two weeks at the georgetown school of medicine in washington dc and then just spent the next few

00:02:26.600 years trying to find my way because i didn't exactly know what i wanted to do next i also went through a

00:02:32.240 major geographical move which comes up for people sometimes after i did my mba i marketed consumer

00:02:38.780 packaged goods at the clorox company in the bay area for a few years and i marketed things like

00:02:46.420 trash bags and drain opener and enjoyed that but eventually moved over to london to be closer to my

00:02:52.840 then girlfriend now wife who was based out here and so that was another major change and then the most

00:02:58.740 recent change i went through was leaving the corporate world behind to start my own business

00:03:03.080 in 2013 where i was enjoying my work marketing at the time luxury desserts i was working on the

00:03:11.480 haagen-dazs business for general mills in london and at the same time i was starting to grow a little

00:03:17.380 bit disenchanted with the corporate world and also marketing a product that i thought was a great

00:03:23.920 product but not something that i ate a lot of myself because i i told myself many years ago during

00:03:29.240 business school i wouldn't market things like junk food and although luxury ice cream isn't exactly

00:03:35.300 junk food it's also not exactly good for you and i really struggled with that and so i i eventually

00:03:39.500 walked away from the corporate world to focus on what i'm doing right now which is to help people

00:03:43.580 relaunch their careers and did you have to do any like transit like any extra training to do what

00:03:48.980 you're doing now like you have to go back to school or anything yeah so when i was working on the

00:03:54.020 haagen-dazs business i was also enrolled in a part-time coaching certification program in london

00:04:00.540 through the coaches training institute and i really loved that it was an it was a weekend program so

00:04:06.960 you'd go every month for three days over the weekend and through that process and after working with

00:04:14.800 some of my own individual clients in the evenings and weekends i eventually got my coach certification

00:04:19.640 and i think that that's something that was useful to me just to develop some coaching techniques and

00:04:25.940 skills but also just to more than anything to give me the confidence to know that i could start my own

00:04:31.340 business focused on helping others navigate changes in their careers so in your work with people helping

00:04:37.760 people navigate changing careers what approach do you see people take most often and how does that

00:04:43.820 common approach often sabotage them from actually finding a career that they enjoy or find meaning in or

00:04:48.720 satisfaction well i found that actually a lot of people go through very different ways of approaching

00:04:55.800 career change and so i think everybody's career journey i've found has been very unique with the

00:05:01.980 people i've crossed paths with and at the same time there are some common pitfalls that i've seen come

00:05:07.420 up across industry sector function job role level in the organization and i guess three come to mind the first

00:05:15.820 one that comes to mind and i'll use these because i've also been guilty of of these same pitfalls

00:05:22.900 is not taking the time to pinpoint a exactly what's wrong and b whether the move that you're considering

00:05:29.220 is going to address that specific issue so just taking myself as an example my immediate reaction when i left

00:05:34.920 the georgetown school of medicine was to assume that i was at the wrong medical school

00:05:38.500 but actually if i was really being honest with myself the issue was actually me and just the misfit

00:05:45.680 i felt between what i wanted to spend my days doing and the prospect of becoming a full-time physician

00:05:51.200 and so so yeah not taking the time to pinpoint what's wrong i think the second thing that can come up is

00:05:56.080 trying to fix everything at once so trying to find a next role that addresses every single issue that

00:06:02.960 you're struggling with right now which can be paralyzing because you're waiting for the next

00:06:08.120 perfect move but actually it's it's the culmination of multiple moves that broadly get you closer to your

00:06:16.240 goals that will ultimately help you get there and then just one final pitfall is more of a practical

00:06:23.840 one around not spending enough time ironing out your personal narrative and defining very clearly for

00:06:31.120 yourself and for others your personal brand and so as i mentioned prior to this work i spent about

00:06:36.700 10 years working in the consumer goods brand marketing space and before you relaunch a product

00:06:41.800 you've got to be crystal clear about what you're trying to be as a brand not only so you're clear about

00:06:47.640 it but also so you can convey that to consumers and i think the same goes for ourselves when we're

00:06:51.640 trying to redefine who we are and reinvent our careers we've got to be clear about what that narrative is

00:06:56.580 for ourself first so we can then very clearly and confidently communicate that to the next investor

00:07:03.940 or the next hiring manager or next partner that we're trying to attract well let's go back to that

00:07:08.920 number one pitfall of not pinpointing exactly what the problem is and this leads to my next question

00:07:14.240 so i think an issue people might have when they're trying to pinpoint exactly what the problem is they

00:07:18.500 might confuse maybe they don't need a career change maybe they just need a job change they stay in the

00:07:23.220 same career so like that's the question so do you see a difference between a difference between

00:07:26.720 changing jobs and then changing careers for sure yeah and i think it's just the magnitude and the

00:07:33.540 um i guess the scope of uh and i guess also what's at stake so if you're just changing your job

00:07:40.220 that might mean maybe making a tweak to the the project you're doing or maybe switching to a different

00:07:46.620 company or even to a slightly different role within the same organization whereas if you're looking at a

00:07:52.140 wholesale career change that that could involve going back to school and starting over a quote-unquote

00:07:59.040 and it's just a lot riskier so i think that that's probably one of the hardest things to figure out

00:08:05.880 brad is to figure out if you're just slightly off course or if you're just categorically in the wrong

00:08:12.780 career as a whole and that's where so much of the confusion has come up for me in the past myself and

00:08:19.140 also with the clients the clients and the audiences that i i now work with yeah i can see that being

00:08:25.780 an issue where people think like they're having a bad time at their job they're like oh well i guess

00:08:29.720 i should just quit and become a barber right definitely this grass is greener on the other

00:08:34.340 side phenomenon and i think this goes back to at least trying to take an honest look at what the

00:08:41.800 real issue is and sometimes we'll end up i guess shifting the blame toward the organization or or

00:08:48.840 our manager or a colleague and i'm not saying that those aren't real issues they oftentimes can be but

00:08:54.980 if you're finding that that same issue is following you around then maybe there's a deeper issue going on

00:09:00.520 with with either you or the the fit between what you're doing and who you are so during your your

00:09:08.120 your career helping people manage and and navigate career change you you develop this this system or

00:09:13.840 this model of seven stages of career change and i'd like to walk through people because i think it's

00:09:18.320 really useful because at each stage you have questions that people should be asking themselves

00:09:22.540 things they they should be doing in order to help them maybe not even have to change careers but if

00:09:27.820 they need to do that they you provide action points for that so yeah the first stage is not really it's

00:09:32.860 like stage zero um in career change it's you call it the status quo what does that look like in a

00:09:38.980 career what does it feel like yeah so status quo and i guess i should take a step back here and where

00:09:44.620 this came from so early on i was doing a lot of individual career consulting which i don't i don't do

00:09:50.320 quite as much of the individual work these days but when i was doing that and even now when i talk to

00:09:55.480 people navigating change i noticed there were some very common emotional challenges and also practical

00:10:03.120 challenge the challenges that i was hearing across various clients again and again and again and these

00:10:09.060 patterns emerged into this pretty consistent trajectory of it's not necessarily linear but a general pattern

00:10:17.360 that people follow when they're going through career change and as you mentioned the the first

00:10:21.140 situation which isn't really part of the actual change is just the status quo and and status quo isn't

00:10:27.640 necessarily a bad thing and in fact if you're feeling another way of putting it is just feeling content

00:10:32.480 with your job or even feeling really happy with your job so if you're in that category that's great

00:10:38.400 because according to gallup the vast majority of people are not fully engaged with their work the latest

00:10:46.400 figure i think from the most recent state of the global workplace poll says that 85 percent of people

00:10:51.380 globally are not engaged with their jobs so if you're in status quo if you're if you're content if

00:10:55.900 you're happy if you're thinking more about how to get your next promotion or what the next move might be

00:11:00.780 for you within the career track that you're on that's great you are you are in that top 15 percent

00:11:07.180 where where you're you're one of the lucky ones so i guess the the corollary to that is that sometimes

00:11:13.000 you can become a little bit too content and a little bit too complacent and maybe not not feel

00:11:18.940 as engaged with your work without really realizing it because you're just so used to this status quo

00:11:24.520 so what can people do if they're feeling good about their work so they continue to feel good about their

00:11:29.600 work so i think it's all about thinking about what's really important to you and making sure you're

00:11:34.800 getting those things and also that you're taking some proactive steps to gain more of what you want in

00:11:40.080 your career so some examples of what those things could be is a really common one that comes up is

00:11:47.360 hey i just i want to earn more money so so in that case maybe you should be looking at the next

00:11:52.140 promotion in your career track but there are other things that are less material like hey i'd like to

00:11:57.900 have more flexibility or i want to have more ownership over my projects or i want more authority or control

00:12:03.600 over my projects so just taking a step back and thinking carefully about and this is a really

00:12:09.680 good time to do it at the start of a year is to think about what do i want to get out of the next

00:12:13.540 year what do i want to get out of this particular chapter of my career and am i taking proactive

00:12:18.820 steps to make sure that i'm i'm gaining those things and if not then maybe having a conversation

00:12:25.540 with my manager or thinking about the things that i can do within the workplace to make sure i'm

00:12:30.380 getting more of those things so it sounds like be content but don't be complacent exactly okay so

00:12:36.660 status quo is where you want to be but then there's this the stage start going for this starts rolling

00:12:43.000 for the you know being dissatisfied with the career and the first stage is doubt what does that look like

00:12:47.580 yeah so for each of these stages i break it into three broad parts it's what's your feeling what

00:12:54.500 you're wondering and also what you're saying to yourself so in this particular case you're you're

00:13:00.820 starting to feel perhaps a little bit disengaged with your work you're wondering if these feelings are

00:13:07.780 normal if it's just par for the course and you might be finding yourself saying that you don't like

00:13:14.580 your job either to yourself or out loud and typically when this happens it's because of mismatches so

00:13:22.140 mismatches between your own talents and skills and the tasks that you're required to carry out or

00:13:28.740 a mismatch with the organizational culture or mismatch with what matters to you and what matters

00:13:35.860 to the organization that you're working for and so i would equate this to having sort of like a an ache

00:13:44.900 in sports where you're not really in pain but you're feeling a little bit of an ache

00:13:49.320 and this necessarily doesn't mean you have to make a career change it just might be is where

00:13:53.020 you start asking those questions like is there a mismatch with the job that i'm doing right now

00:13:56.600 within this career and maybe i got to find something different exactly yeah there might not be an

00:14:01.020 underlying issue that's so major to warrant a major career change but i do think it's worth

00:14:07.380 looking at it and and at least paying attention to it so for example for me if i just go back to my

00:14:13.780 college days i when i was thinking about becoming a doctor i was spending all of my summers doing

00:14:19.300 medical research and feeling really bored with it and i remember even falling asleep sometimes doing

00:14:25.880 the work and feeling really drained and finding that time was really dragging on and i think that

00:14:30.440 for me i didn't really pay attention to that as much as i should have which which is what resulted

00:14:35.880 in me going all the way to medical school before deciding to pull out and and so i just think it's

00:14:41.620 worth paying attention to it and in some cases maybe those minor aches are are worth the upside or the

00:14:48.280 bigger picture or the broader goals that you're trying to accomplish in your career but in some

00:14:53.360 cases maybe they're not what are some mistakes that people make in this stage so i think that sometimes

00:14:59.740 what can happen is people are a little bit too quick to to judge a situation so i think let's say

00:15:06.740 you're within the first 90 days of starting a new job and you're not very happy there and i think that

00:15:12.380 is a really i actually find that that's a really tough time to precisely diagnose whether you're in

00:15:17.800 the right place or not because a lot of times that discomfort could be because of just the learning

00:15:23.220 curve or getting used to a new organization or trying to develop new relationships so i think it's

00:15:28.360 worth giving it a chance and sometimes and again i've been guilty of this myself i'm just a little

00:15:33.400 bit too quick to judge i'm too quick to jump ship and that can be a problem first of all because you

00:15:41.140 might be leaving for the wrong reasons but also on a practical level then you have to try to explain

00:15:46.360 that to your next employer who's concerned about you also walking away from the role that they're

00:15:51.280 considering you for so i think not giving it enough time can be an issue on the flip side as i mentioned

00:15:57.800 before just completely ignoring the feelings can also end up catching up with you all right so it sounds

00:16:02.840 like the the action plan here is don't ignore it but don't act rashly and start asking yourself

00:16:09.180 some questions to figure out what exactly is causing those feelings of doubt about your current career

00:16:14.780 current job yep all right so the next stage in your model is dismay what does that look like and feel

00:16:22.200 like okay so dismay is going from this this feeling of slight disengagement to

00:16:31.940 complete misplacement so feeling like you're completely out of place that you're completely

00:16:38.060 in the wrong career you might be looking up left and to the right in your organization and you just

00:16:43.560 don't see a role that you would want to have as your next role and you're probably wondering whether

00:16:49.800 you could ever really be happy in this line of work and you probably find yourself saying that you

00:16:55.900 just don't like your career and you don't like the the career path that you're on some some of these

00:17:01.220 i guess signs that you might be experiencing this that that differentiate it from just the doubt stage

00:17:06.120 is that you're feeling completely drained so completely emotionally drained completely physically

00:17:12.620 drained where you're you're basically dedicating your evenings and weekends to recuperating from

00:17:17.380 the drain your your job is is creating on your life you might find that time is dragging on

00:17:23.060 you might find you have to pretend to be someone you're not you're not growing a big telltale sign

00:17:29.580 is that you're you're in a bad mood often all the time and you're just not a very fun person to be

00:17:35.480 around because your job is just not bringing you any joy and what what is the the big mistake that

00:17:42.160 people make in this stage and then what on the flip side what can they do instead so yeah so going

00:17:48.460 back to mistakes i guess i guess again it's really unique for each person and i guess that i guess

00:17:53.280 the word mistake is kind of a strong word because i think this is this is a very confusing journey i

00:17:58.340 think i think when you're feeling this you're probably wrestling with really big questions like

00:18:05.320 hey did i make some wrong decisions about what i wanted to do with my life or what would be the

00:18:10.320 implication of me walking away from this and so so i guess i guess to answer your question i think

00:18:15.880 some of the the pitfalls or maybe the missteps that happen during this stage is kind of very

00:18:22.920 similar to the first stage not paying attention to it and not doing something about it where you you

00:18:28.320 end up allowing this this um this job of yours which is just supposed to be generally a positive part

00:18:35.120 of your life and it just spirals into something that is a constant drain on not only you but also other

00:18:43.420 people around you and and i think that other people will start to notice it and i've had people tell me

00:18:49.500 in the past and i think we'll get to this at one of the other stages hey you don't you don't look very

00:18:54.420 happy at work but just ignoring it and not doing anything about it i think only ends up resulting in

00:19:01.120 you not doing a great job at work but also not taking steps to try to fix the situation yeah i can see

00:19:06.740 that that big challenge being having that sunk cost fallacy going on it's like yeah man i went to

00:19:12.640 medical school i've invested three years you know so far into this career like i can't yeah it stinks

00:19:19.120 but if i let go like i just wasted 15 years of my life yeah that and exactly and this happens a lot in

00:19:25.700 the corporate world which is where i spent a big chunk of my career where the system is designed

00:19:31.340 such that the longer that you're at an organization the the more benefits you get the harder it is to

00:19:38.060 walk away because there is always an even more enticing carrots dangling in the distance i was

00:19:43.900 just catching up with a former colleague of mine in the bay area a couple weeks ago and he's been at

00:19:49.520 this organization that he's currently at for nearly two decades and when he hits the two decade mark

00:19:54.620 that that reaps some serious benefits for him and you can just imagine when you're at year 19

00:20:00.780 you're not going to walk away from that you've come this far and so it gets back to that saying

00:20:05.800 i don't know who said this but we didn't come this far just to come this far and so it's really hard

00:20:10.980 to let go of the thing that you've invested so much time and energy and belief into we're gonna take

00:20:16.940 a quick break for your word from our sponsors and now back to the show so yeah if you in the doubt

00:20:22.900 phase you've maybe you've you've kind of pinpointed some things that are bothering you you've tried to

00:20:27.020 address that if you're still if you move to dismay you feel misplaced then that's that you got to

00:20:33.220 listen to that because it means like something's still wrong with this path you can't it's not

00:20:36.380 small fixes aren't going to fix it you might have to make some bigger fixes yeah and maybe you even

00:20:41.120 tried some of those things and you just realize it's not it's not doing anything so for me when i moved

00:20:45.820 to the uk i was working at a small startup dessert company and over time i didn't feel like it was the

00:20:50.820 best place for me to be so i moved back to a bigger company which was general mills and and i was still

00:20:57.720 not really feeling as engaged with my work and so i realized that there was a bigger issue going on

00:21:03.800 so the next stage is mitigation what does that look like and feel like okay so mitigation is

00:21:12.300 someone's attempt to try to fix the situation so now you realize you're in the wrong career let's

00:21:18.860 just say the idea as you mentioned brett of just walking away from it can seem really daunting and

00:21:25.180 risky and maybe even a bit hasty or impractical so what tends to happen with most of the professionals

00:21:32.040 i cross paths with is they try to fix it so they're feeling misplaced and they're wondering whether there

00:21:39.780 is a way that they can stick this out and so it's almost like this feeling of persistence is like i want

00:21:46.660 to try to conquer this maybe i can fix this and what that can look like is maybe picking up a side

00:21:54.520 project like the one that i did when i was i was really getting really getting interested in coaching

00:21:58.920 other people so instead of doing it at work i would i would take on this side gig of coaching people

00:22:05.220 outside of work or doing my certification on the weekends and the evenings so it could be a side

00:22:10.120 project it could be making a tweak so maybe switching to a different industry or or company

00:22:18.500 or or function or role but not not all of those things but maybe one or two of those things

00:22:24.360 maybe it involves networking and and maybe talking to other people to see if there are solutions

00:22:30.200 and really just trying to come up with some some fixes on the edges to see if you can put a band-aid on

00:22:37.100 on the situation but that sounds like it can spread you thin if you're like you know you're trying to

00:22:41.260 moonlight on top of your career that can be exhausting for sure and that that's what tends

00:22:47.760 to happen and it's not like sometimes people ask me well can can this work like can you just stay in

00:22:52.600 the mitigation stage forever and just have that be okay and i think it's possible but for the vast

00:23:01.040 majority of the people i cross paths with and the most of the people i tend to cross paths with are

00:23:05.000 working in the corporate world is or some large established organization where they've got they've

00:23:10.380 got serious demands on their time and they're working 40 to 60 hour weeks sometimes evenings and

00:23:16.140 weekends and on top of that they're trying to feed this side interest and it just yeah you're exactly

00:23:21.320 right just spreads you too thin which is not sustainable i think in the long run but i think it's

00:23:27.120 interesting like most people don't quit their job at this point you even in this this these stages of

00:23:33.020 career change like you still don't tell people you should quit your job right now if you feel doubt

00:23:37.580 it feels like this is like this mitigation process is part of the process to figure out what's the next

00:23:42.600 move i think it is and i think it's important because i think if you skip this stage what happens is

00:23:50.180 you always wonder gosh what if i would have just tried before i make this really drastic move

00:23:55.020 what about just trying this one thing and and for you can think about the metaphor of relationships

00:24:01.020 before you i don't know before you break up with somebody or you know before you walk away from

00:24:05.000 a marriage i think most people want to try to see if they can fix it before they make such a major

00:24:10.980 decision to walk away from everything you've invested all your energies into so i think it is a natural

00:24:18.000 and understandable human behavior and desire to try to to fix things and to to try to

00:24:27.820 not quit i mean popular media is always talking about never quitting and and never giving up and

00:24:35.780 so i think that that's really it's really etched into our minds and and people are resilient people

00:24:40.680 people want to find ways to make things work all right so the next phase you've tried mitigating

00:24:45.760 tried fixing things try to do the side hustle so maybe you can have some sense of satisfaction

00:24:50.140 with your life even though your job's not that great but eventually you're exhausted what does that

00:24:55.660 look and feel like and what's the main challenge there so in this stage of of exhaustion you're

00:25:01.000 feeling stuck you might be wondering how much longer can i go on like this you might find yourself

00:25:07.580 saying things like gosh this just this just isn't working i'm trying to get it to work it's just not

00:25:13.940 it's just not working and we're talking about physical and emotional exhaustion we're talking about

00:25:19.680 not really bringing a hundred percent to anything you're doing and i'm talking about your full-time

00:25:25.900 work your side projects your relationships your health your personal interests the people in your

00:25:32.300 life family kids like you're just not you're not doing anything justice in your life because you just

00:25:37.420 don't have the capacity for it and i think the big clue here is that it it just starts to affect

00:25:43.340 other people in your life either either explicitly or behind the surface and so i'll just give you

00:25:50.020 this a really personal example when i was thinking about leaving the corporate world behind i was working

00:25:54.500 on a global team where i was i was engulfed in a lot of internal politics and stakeholder management

00:26:01.500 which i found really tiring and not really what i went into marketing for and i'll never i'll never

00:26:07.400 forget i was i was in london with my wife one night and we were having dinner and i was just

00:26:12.360 complaining about work again and this had been going on for months and and i remember her just

00:26:17.560 telling me to just i think she just told me hey could you just could you just not complain for once

00:26:23.080 about this because i'm like i was complaining about it all the time and i can totally understand where

00:26:26.980 she was coming from because i just wasn't that fun to be around and i think when it starts to affect

00:26:32.380 other people in your life when when you feel like you're just not doing justice to yourself or anyone

00:26:37.540 else i think it's it's a sign that you are at the the bottom of the emotional journey and it

00:26:44.780 and it's probably worth trying to get out of it all right so that leaves the next stage and that's

00:26:49.600 departure and so this is like when you decide i got i'm gonna i gotta get out of this this is just

00:26:53.680 sucking my life it's ruining my family life my my personal life right but deciding to leave and

00:26:59.760 leaving that's those are two separate things what's the big challenge that people have like once they

00:27:04.560 decide i gotta i gotta get out of this i gotta change careers and then actually making the move

00:27:09.500 to do that yeah so this is really really tough brett and i think even if you're really unhappy with

00:27:15.740 your job i know so many people who are unhappy with their jobs and they still just won't leave

00:27:19.440 and and i don't fault them for that i i completely get it because i think the choice to walk away from

00:27:27.200 a job or especially even an entire career is huge it's like the biggest professional move you can make

00:27:33.900 and the one that comes with probably the most risk and also just personal confusion and so in terms of

00:27:41.860 what stands in the way of people making this move there's there's probably there's probably three

00:27:46.840 things that come to mind for me number one is just risk and going back to what you said earlier brett

00:27:52.480 just letting go of what you have and this is another one really common and understandable is money

00:27:57.760 so finances thinking about the prospect of a change to your salary both up or down and whether that's

00:28:04.360 going to make a meaningful difference to your life or completely losing your salary if you don't know

00:28:08.700 exactly what you're going to move on to next and and you decide to to resign before you have something

00:28:13.500 lined up and i've done that before and and then finally just just pure fear and just the pressure to

00:28:21.000 get it right which people who are feeling dissatisfied in their career i think feel this pressure even

00:28:28.240 more which is the cruel irony of it is you don't feel like you've maybe made the best choices in the

00:28:33.720 past so this time around you want to make sure you get it right but in doing so that can lead to

00:28:39.800 a bit of paralysis and wanting to wanting to wait for the perfect move before you make a move which

00:28:45.840 results in maybe you never making a move and and that's that that can happen that can that can stand

00:28:51.980 in the way of you moving on it's funny as i was reading through this your your stages of career

00:28:56.760 change uh i've gone through this myself so like you know i've been doing the the blog and the podcast

00:29:02.180 for 12 years now but before that i went to law school i thought i was going to be an attorney

00:29:06.180 and i loved law school but then i started having doubts about my career when i actually did my first

00:29:11.020 internship at a bankruptcy court and like the actual work of law is like i don't know

00:29:15.800 i don't i don't enjoy this this is not not what i this is not matlock i thought i was going to be

00:29:20.180 up there like i'm just doing a lot of pushing a lot of papers and then then the dismay happened

00:29:24.860 the second my second year when i um entered at a big firm in tulsa and it was like i got my first

00:29:31.440 case of heartburn i was stressed out and i was like this i'm not liking this and then i graduated

00:29:36.640 law school and i was still i was that's when i started the blog was while i was in law school so i kept

00:29:41.160 doing the blog then i was okay i remember having that that mitigation phase man i've invested so

00:29:46.180 much i've like spent three years i spent a lot of money i gotta do something with this and so what i

00:29:52.100 did was i i found a career in law but not practicing law so i worked for uh thompson reuters which they have

00:29:59.120 they own west law so it's an illegal research company and i worked with them it was great i worked

00:30:04.920 from home still doing the blog but like i still really wasn't into law and so i got to that

00:30:11.480 exhaustion phase i was like i can't do this blog that's growing and like this job at the same time

00:30:16.560 i'm tired we just had our first kid and and then finally i made that that departure just i got to get

00:30:22.120 out of here but it took me a long time between like deciding i gotta quit and then actually leaving

00:30:28.180 because i was like it was all these like i was worried about money i was worried about health

00:30:31.080 insurance i was worried about just like i was worried about i i liked my manager at my company

00:30:36.180 and i i was i felt bad that i was you know i'm gonna let him down so there was that i had to get

00:30:41.240 through so it took like probably three or four months from the time i decided i'm gonna leave

00:30:46.780 to actually leaving my career in law wow yeah and that's not an unusual trajectory and and i know

00:30:54.620 people who they'll decide that they want to leave and they'll they've got a plan like i've had

00:30:58.380 clients i've worked with and they've got a two-year plan where they've decided they're gonna leave

00:31:02.580 and they're spending and these people are quite senior they they they spend the next two years

00:31:06.960 lining it up because there's just so much at stake not only for themselves but also for their teams and

00:31:11.580 it sounds like it sounds like you also went through a very similar thing where you okay i want to leave

00:31:16.560 but like how am i going to do this and when's the best time and gosh what the implications of all that

00:31:21.660 are huge yeah i totally get it yeah i mean the other stews like yeah i wanted to leave in a way

00:31:26.500 that didn't burn bridges right but then it also built momentum for my next move yeah and that that's

00:31:33.580 really important to think about just resigning the right way and taking a long-term view of that

00:31:37.740 because you just never you never really know how your career is going to shape up who you're going

00:31:42.020 to cross paths with again and there's so many people out there who just don't resign the right

00:31:46.020 way because they just don't feel like they have any skin in the game anymore but i'll tell you the

00:31:52.200 people who resign professionally and thoughtfully are people who i always remember very positively

00:31:59.120 in my career yeah it's a small world for sure so after departure's reflection what's going on there

00:32:05.140 and what's the ideal outcome in this stage so here ideally you're feeling a sense of relief because

00:32:11.460 reflection is whether whether you take a an actual literal break or sabbatical from work or not

00:32:18.540 you're trying to give yourself the headspace to just figure it out and so you might be feeling

00:32:25.260 really relieved that you have either made the decision that you're going to depart mentally or

00:32:30.460 that you've actually um are you're now going through the stages of resigning and you're thinking

00:32:35.940 about what path you should pursue next but but really what you're feeling at this point because

00:32:41.300 you've just gone through this exhaustion phase is you probably want a little bit of a break

00:32:46.080 and and that's okay i think sometimes as professionals we are so conditioned to to not leave any gaps

00:32:53.640 in our resumes and our cvs and i really think it's okay within reason to just take a moment

00:33:00.240 get some headspace to think about what you really want and i think to answer your question about the

00:33:05.880 ideal outcome in this stage is hopefully the clarity the confidence and the courage to make a move

00:33:14.340 that you feel is going to really bring you some fulfillment and joy and satisfaction and is going

00:33:21.340 to be engaging work that you really care about and and can allow you to make the most of who you are

00:33:27.720 but i think you can only maybe you can't only get it this way but i think you're gonna have a greater

00:33:34.920 likelihood of understanding what this is when you have a little bit of separation from the environment

00:33:40.900 or the conditions that are constantly depleting you and not leaving you with a lot of residual energy

00:33:47.500 to actually figure this kind of stuff out so after you reflect you move into relaunch and what is that

00:33:53.240 does that involve going back to school starting a new business what does that look like it could it

00:33:58.620 could it could be those those are two very common paths so there are there's probably more paths in

00:34:04.800 this but but five broad paths come to mind from the people i've crossed paths with number one is as

00:34:10.440 you mentioned going back to school or gaining a new set of skills or some sort of a certification that

00:34:15.580 you feel will either bridge the gap between where you want to go or or even just give you the confidence

00:34:21.100 to to launch out into whatever new direction you want to want to go in another one is as you mentioned

00:34:26.880 starting your own business or venture or and that could look like turning that side hustle into a

00:34:32.120 full-fledged business it could mean running your own your own independent business so you could you

00:34:39.540 could start a freelance business it could be a bigger scale idea where you're you're actually

00:34:43.780 thinking about launching a high growth startup so that's another path number three is some people

00:34:48.900 just decide they want to make a tweak or a minor shift or they come to the realization that just

00:34:54.100 shifting industry location company function or role probably not all five but making some sort of a tweak

00:35:01.540 to their former situation is actually going to address the issues and then the final two

00:35:08.480 are exploration so taking some sort of a portfolio approach where you decide hey i'm either going to

00:35:15.360 keep keep the work i was similar to what you described before is like i'm going to keep some of elements of

00:35:20.720 my of my legal work going while i'm exploring something else because both of those things are of interest to me

00:35:26.040 or because you just you're trying to figure it out and you feel like the best way to do that is to

00:35:31.600 proactively take action and dip your toe in the waters of a variety of paths that you're considering

00:35:37.800 in a way that is low investment and low risk and and finally i should probably say one other path that

00:35:44.180 people do take and i've had people on my podcast who who have come on the show and they have described

00:35:49.260 this trajectory where they actually walk away from their former jobs and they've they've taken some

00:35:54.220 time to do some either self-exploration or or some reflection and they actually realize that they want

00:36:01.620 to go back and that does happen and and people can be very happy doing that so sometimes people return

00:36:06.700 and i think there's a term out there called the boomerang employee and so you might go back to either a

00:36:12.080 former company or you might go back to the type of work you were doing but just in a different

00:36:17.700 some sort of different version of that that you feel is going to make you happier but there are

00:36:21.900 people who do end up deciding that you know what actually what i had was pretty good and and upon

00:36:27.000 further reflection i don't think a change is going to address the issue i think maybe it's something

00:36:31.380 like a mindset shift or a change in mentality or just one of those tweaks that we mentioned before

00:36:36.080 so during this process this is very high level stuff you're thinking on like a personal level your

00:36:42.020 goals your aspirations uh your psychology but in involved in this process sort of the nuts and

00:36:48.040 bolts like the day-to-day stuff like the challenges like the tuesday afternoon problems that people

00:36:52.700 have in a career change is like okay well i'm gonna change i want to change careers but like

00:36:56.040 what about health insurance what about how are we going to pay rent or mortgage yeah how do you

00:37:02.060 how do you have you how have you advised clients in the past like on how to handle that stuff as

00:37:06.560 they try to make a big career change move yeah so dealing with the financial barriers is really

00:37:11.620 really critical and it's just it's so important to do this because everybody everybody's got financial

00:37:18.980 concerns and everybody's got a financial situation that they've got to deal with so i personally have

00:37:25.700 never been in a position where i had the luxury of taking a tremendous amount of time off or being

00:37:31.740 able to step away from work that long so i mean for example when i when i left medical school i i had

00:37:38.120 to get a job right away i actually temped for a while as a secretary at a legal at a law firm actually

00:37:43.000 of all places in washington dc and just to kind of make ends meet and so the point is that you've got

00:37:48.240 to deal with financial barriers and i think when when i work with clients or audience members there's

00:37:51.820 there's a few things that come up number one is taking realistic stock of what sort of a salary

00:37:58.580 decrease or salary loss you could weather and and how long you could weather it for and whether or

00:38:06.460 not you can take steps to reduce your spending to bring down your expenses or or the cost in your

00:38:12.160 life so that you can make that runway as long as possible but but really just doing the math on that

00:38:18.000 another way of looking at it is to try to build up the savings required to get you to a place where you

00:38:25.660 feel comfortable with the kind of runway that buys you and and by runway i'm talking about a

00:38:32.240 a transitionary period a transitional period where you may not be earning the income that you want to

00:38:37.920 be earning or you may be earning a decreased income for a certain amount of time but but building up that

00:38:44.600 savings is really important because that gives you the confidence to know that you've got a little bit

00:38:49.220 of time before you have to to resort to some other plan and which gets into another point and i think

00:38:55.020 that it's having a solid backup plan in place and that's important on a very practical level but but

00:39:00.920 really putting that down on paper what will i do if within x period of time let's say a year

00:39:07.060 this thing that i'm exploring just doesn't gain traction whether it's landing a job in a new industry

00:39:12.320 or starting my own or running my own business what if it just never takes off and and what are going

00:39:17.960 to be the metrics i have in place that will trigger me to say okay i've given it a shot but now it's

00:39:24.840 time to go back to do this other thing that was a plan b and having that plan b in place i think

00:39:30.400 gives you the reassurance to know that everything's gonna everything's gonna be okay even if it doesn't

00:39:35.260 work out in the worst case scenario yeah that savings like you know you hear personal financial

00:39:39.900 advisors always talk about have at least six months of personal spending right saved up yeah and that

00:39:44.900 comes in handy if like you lose a job but it also comes in handy when you decide i don't like my job

00:39:49.220 and i gotta do something else and it gives you that runway you were talking about exactly and it

00:39:53.380 a kind of less tangible benefit of that is that it gives you some confidence and it reduces the

00:40:00.700 desperation that you have and that desperation can show up if you're desperate to get your next job

00:40:06.760 the hiring managers can sniff that out or if you're desperate to land that next client those

00:40:11.980 prospective clients can can sniff that out and so you want to show up in this new entity of yours or

00:40:18.240 whatever this next chapter is of yours you want to show up confidently you want to show up in a way

00:40:23.280 that makes people want to bring you on board and that's hard to do if you're financially uncomfortable

00:40:29.900 it's just you just show up differently so i think that's that's another added benefit that's a little

00:40:36.120 bit more behind the scenes but just as important all right so have some savings in place and then when

00:40:41.640 you do decide to make the the cut you have to like kind of tighten your belt your your belt and figure

00:40:47.520 out where you can cut expenses so you can you can have that runway to do what you need to do to make

00:40:51.600 the transition and then also it sounds like have a plan b in case your career change doesn't doesn't

00:40:56.640 work out definitely and and just one more thing to say about that plan b make sure that that plan b

00:41:01.820 that you've got the buy-in from anybody who you think you need to get the buy-in from in your life

00:41:07.680 that could be partner family member sometimes kids they've got to be on board with your plan

00:41:13.360 also because they are going to feel it during this transitional time they are definitely going to be

00:41:17.640 the ones to bear the brunt of whatever sort of volatility you're going to experience in your

00:41:22.840 career during this transition and what i like about this approach it's very it's very practical

00:41:28.020 because a lot of like sort of career advice you often read online particular it's like burn the

00:41:33.200 bridges just make the move don't look back and it's like that's i always read that i'm like man

00:41:39.320 that could work out like like two percent of the times people do that but like 98 it's probably not

00:41:44.500 going to work out and it's going to end up bad definitely yeah it's like you said earlier brett it's

00:41:48.980 a small world i mean i just found out i literally found this out today before this call that someone i

00:41:53.040 used to work with in paris who was on the haagen-dazs team there is now part of the careers team at a

00:41:59.880 business school in europe where i regularly speak and she's taking over the careers program there and

00:42:04.740 i saw her name and i thought oh wow we work together this was this was seven years ago and i've had i've

00:42:10.880 had former colleagues become clients i've had former managers introduce me to to people who have had a

00:42:17.520 direct impact on my business so it's you never you never know you you i always assume i'm going to run

00:42:24.120 into somebody again so you want to when you're resigning i i couldn't disagree more with with

00:42:29.600 whoever out there is advising people just burn the bridges i think you should give it a hundred percent

00:42:33.880 up until the very last day so what happens after all this so you've gone through these stages you've

00:42:38.260 made the career change will people likely go through this cycle again or is it possible to reach

00:42:43.160 like career nirvana where you escape escape the cycle of doubt and dismay you know it depends

00:42:50.740 right it really it really depends like i would love to say that okay you go through these seven

00:42:55.960 stages you figure this stuff out and you end up boom you end up landing in your dream job what i've

00:43:01.920 observed is that it really depends and so i think if you take the time to figure out and if you if you

00:43:11.160 have the ability to wait until the right role comes along if you if you take the time to figure out what

00:43:16.880 you want and you can wait until the right role comes along then yes i think you can absolutely

00:43:21.840 find work that you find meaningful and fulfilling and maybe that's it like you you can you can call

00:43:27.640 it a day i think if you don't or if you if you're hasty with it or if you just can't like if you just

00:43:33.080 don't have the time or the space or the practical ability to to figure this out and you really just need

00:43:38.600 to take that next job then then yeah i i know people including me who go through this sort of

00:43:45.540 cyclical rebirth over time either because they outgrow whatever they thought was going to be

00:43:52.140 right for them or it's just this natural process of wanting to move on to the next exciting thing there

00:43:58.380 are there are chronic career changers out there i'm probably probably one of them and and you know

00:44:04.780 that's actually becoming more acceptable these days to have multiple careers and so yeah i think

00:44:10.020 people people do people do have different chapters i think i don't think our careers are necessarily

00:44:16.660 linear and i don't think that people should feel like they need to be linear in order for them to be

00:44:22.560 quote-unquote successful i think you can have a little bit more of an off the beaten path career and

00:44:28.560 still find it very rewarding and very enriching and grow through the process and find each and

00:44:35.660 every day interesting i think that is possible well joseph where can people go to learn more about

00:44:40.440 your work and what you do well if you if you want to get a free roadmap that actually describes these

00:44:47.420 seven stages of career change in more detail or if you just want to check out more career change

00:44:52.000 resources including my career relaunch podcast you can go to josephlu.co join where you can sign up to

00:45:02.540 receive my newsletter and also be the first to hear about the book i'm working on writing about how to

00:45:08.060 navigate these seven stages of career change and and speaking of the book right now i'm trying to

00:45:13.940 actually identify a solid book agent to work with so if somebody out there is listening to this who's

00:45:18.220 involved with non-fiction publishing and you're interested in learning more about my book or

00:45:23.400 about the seven stages of career change i'd love for you to email me and you can reach me at joseph

00:45:28.380 at josephlu.co and we can have a chat fantastic well joseph lu thanks for your time it's been a pleasure

00:45:34.680 okay thanks so much for having me brett my guest today was joseph lu he is a consultant and coach for

00:45:39.860 career change you can go to his website josephlu.co that's liu.co where you download those resources we

00:45:45.720 talked about today as well as find out other information about his work also check out our

00:45:48.840 show notes at aom.is career change where you can find links to resources where you can delve deeper

00:45:53.360 into this topic well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast check out our website

00:46:04.660 at artofmanless.com where you can find our podcast archives as well as thousands of articles

00:46:08.680 we've written over the years about careers personal finances you name it we've got it there also if you

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00:46:45.720 action

The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

#578： Figuring Out If You Should Change Careers (And How to Do It)

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