#589： How Exercise Helps Us Find Happiness, Hope, Connection, and Courage
Episode Stats
Summary
You know how good moving your body is for your physical health? You probably have a vague sense that it s good for your mental health too, too. But you likely don t realize just how powerful movement truly is for our mind, and that it even affects your sense of hope, courage, connection, and identity. My guest today explores these lesser appreciated impacts of physical activity in our new book, "The Joy of Movement." Her name is Kelly McGonigal, and she's a research psychologist and lecturer at Stanford University. We get her on the podcast a while back to discuss willpower. That's Episode 531: Willpower.
Transcript
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I'm Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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You know how good moving your body is for your physical health.
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You probably have a vague sense that it's good for your mental health too, but you likely
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don't realize just how powerful movement truly is for your mind, and that it even affects
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your sense of hope, courage, connection, and identity.
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My guest today explores these lesser appreciated impacts of physical activity in our new book,
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Her name is Kelly McGonigal, and she's a research psychologist and lecturer at Stanford University.
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We get her on the podcast a while back to discuss willpower.
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That's episode number 531 if you want to check that out.
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Kelly and I begin our discussion today with the idea of the runner's high and whether you
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can get it from doing forms of exercise other than running.
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We then discuss how exercise can become powerfully addictive and yet be a uniquely healthy form
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of addiction that improves instead of destroys mental health.
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We then discuss the way that moving our bodies with others can generate collective joy as
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well as muscular bonding that makes a group feel stronger and bigger.
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We also get into what elements go into an ideal pump-up song, how physical movement helps
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create your sense of self, and why exercising in nature seems to amplify all its beneficial
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We end our conversation with what you can start doing today to get more of the potent benefits
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After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash joyofmovement.
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All right, Kelly McGonigal, welcome back to the show.
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So you got a new book, The Joy of Movement, How Exercise Helps Us Find Happiness, Hope,
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So we had you on the show last time to talk about the willpower instinct.
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How did you make the jump from willpower to movement in your research and writing?
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Although most people know me best as a psychologist, I've actually been teaching group exercise
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Everything from yoga and dance to traditional fitness activities like strength training and
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And exercise has pretty much always been the number one thing I do to support my mental health,
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the sort of thing that I can choose to do that helps me deal with stress and anxiety
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So I, you know, I, I so excited to finally write this book because so much science has
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come out in the last decade that is all inspiring, that blows my mind about how deep the relationship
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between exercise and mental health and happiness is.
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So you said, I like how you, you, your connection to exercise is about mental health because
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usually books about exercise, it's all about cardiovascular health.
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You need exercise because it's good for you, but your focus on this book was the emotional
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And of course it's true that exercise is good for your physical health.
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I think most people know that, but I think most people don't understand how deep the connection
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is between moving your body and taking care of your brain.
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Most people don't understand the deep relationship between movement and sense of self, self-confidence,
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your, your belief in a positive future for yourself and also social connection and how
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And so, you know, I want to talk about something that I think is exciting because it demonstrates
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the value of movement for every body, sort of no matter what your age, what your size,
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what your physical health status, if you have disabilities, injuries, severe mental health
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challenges, the research is really clear that no matter who you are, where you live and
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what your status is, any way you want to slice it, that if you move your body more in whatever
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way you can, that it pretty much guarantees that you'll be happier and feel more connected
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So I like talking about it from that perspective too, because I think too often we associate
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exercise with feeling like our body's the enemy.
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We're trying to control our bodies or we're trying to fix our bodies or focus on making
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our bodies look acceptable to other people or more attractive to other people.
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And I wanted to focus on how much exercise gives us both immediately, like the mood boost
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that you can get as soon as you move your body to like the really deep meaning that people
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often find in pursuing mastery in different forms of movement or the true belonging that they
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And I like that, the focus on the community aspect, because that's a growing problem in
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Western countries is a sense of isolation and feeling like you're alone.
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We'll get into that, why that happens, but I really loved how you focused on that.
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So let's talk about the one thing that people typically associate with physical activity
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and boosting their mood, and it's the runner's high, the mythical runner's high.
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Now, I don't think I've ever experienced the runner's high.
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If you don't train for it, it's pretty miserable, and I have never trained for it.
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So if I have to run around the block, I'm like huffing and puffing.
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But put me in like a dance cardio room, I can dance for hours.
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So I get my high in other ways, from kickboxing, from strength training, from flow yoga, from
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It can be experienced in any physical activity where basically you get your heart rate up a
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In the book, I call it a persistence high because the only thing that really seems to be required
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to trigger it is that you do something moderately difficult.
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Maybe you break a sweat and you do it for maybe 20 minutes or so.
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So have you experienced that in physical forms of movement other than running?
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You're just moving the entire time to whatever, Cotton Eye Joe.
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Is that what we listened to back then, I think?
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So for those, how do people describe what it feels like?
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You kind of feel euphoric, I guess, is the feeling that I can...
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So some of the quotes that I found, people describing a runner's high, it sounds to me
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People talk about it as being like, you're on every drug imaginable and you feel it one
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with the universe and you're floating and you're connected to the universe all the way
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down to what I think is the lowest level of a persistence high, which is one that really
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is available to pretty much everyone, even if you're not having that peak experience,
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is suddenly a sense that whatever was going on inside your mind that might've been troubling
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you, worries, stress, anger, self-doubt or self-criticism, that seems to recede.
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People start to experience a quieter mind or more focused mind where a lot of stuff that
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causes us a lot of mental suffering, that fades back.
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And the same with physical pain and physical discomfort.
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And at the same time, your sense of optimism, your sense of confidence, your sense of hope,
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the belief that things could be good, that things are good, that seems to be enhanced.
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And that's sort of like the key mental effect of any form of movement, sometimes called the
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feel better effect, is an increase in energy and optimism and a decrease in stress, anxiety
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and pain. And what's, you know, so interesting is we now know, even though most people think
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that the reason for this feel better effect is only endorphins, it's like an endorphin
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rush. And maybe, you know, the people who are having that, that insane peak experience where
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they're at one with the universe, I'm sure there's some endorphins involved in that, but
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that the general feel better effect seems to be driven by a class of brain chemicals called
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endocannabinoids, which are the same brain chemicals that cannabis mimics. And
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endocannabinoids are just this fascinating brain chemical that basically dampened down
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everything that's going on in your brain that most people want to avoid, like stress and worry and
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pain. And it facilitates anything good that might be happening. It enhances the pleasure that you get
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from anything. It increases your motivation. It increases the joy that you feel. Anything that's
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good that could trigger your brain, the endocannabinoids is going to basically amp it up.
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And that's the runner's high. That's the persistence high. And again, the research is pretty clear that
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you can get it from any activity, cycling, hiking, swimming, dancing, flow yoga, if you get your
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heart rate up a little bit and just keep going. Do we know why our brain does that when we do that?
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So there are theories. And I would say the dominant theory right now is that human beings really change
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the way that they live and survive. So they had to go out and forage and hunt and gather and work
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together physically to support the community. And the idea is that basically the humans who survived
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were the ones whose brains rewarded them for being physically active for hours a day. So, you know,
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our brains reward us for things that are necessary to survive and our brains reward us for eating and
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for seeking food. Our brains reward us for mating and having sex and reproducing. Our brains reward
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us for a lot of things now that probably, you know, the earliest human brain didn't reward people for,
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like cooperating with others. We get that cooperation high. And it seems like, you know,
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as humans became what you could consider modern humans, one of the things our brains needed to figure
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out how to reward us for was being active so that we wouldn't get so lazy that we weren't willing to
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put in the effort to feed ourselves, to feed our community and do the physical labor necessary to
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survive as a community. So that's the idea that basically, as soon as you, it's like, you know,
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our brains will try to conserve our energy if it's not necessary. So before you exercise, none of this
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runner's high stuff is happening. And there's actually a pretty big gap. Like even if you just think,
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oh, maybe I'll go for a walk or a run or I'll go to the gym, your brain will be like, are you really
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sure? Do you really need to use that energy? And that's why it seems to take a little bit of time
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to kick in. It's like when you say, this matters to me, this is a goal, I am doing this, it's real.
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Then your brain is like, oh, I guess this matters. So let's reward this human being for this. And I
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think that's probably why the 20 minute kick in, it's like your brain is testing you. But if you're
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really on that hunt, if you're really foraging, if you're really putting in the physical labor,
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your brain will say, okay, I got you. And we'll produce the brain chemicals you need to feel good
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and want to keep going. So yeah, the interesting point you made about the persistence high is not
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only does it make you feel good, but as you said, it makes you want to bond with others and like
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other people. Suddenly people report this after they finish a 5k, like, I love everyone here.
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Yes. And it's all forms of exercise. I mean, there's so many ways that this shows up. Even
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like the one studio I teach at where they had to keep increasing the time between classes
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because people wouldn't leave because after a workout, they were like, oh, I want to talk to
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these people. Like they're my friends, even though they just moved in silence in a yoga class together.
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And it is the case that that basic neurochemistry of the exercise high, one of its primary effects is to
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help us bond with others. Endocannabinoids enhance social pleasures, particularly. So other people's
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jokes are funnier. It's more interesting to hear other people's stories. You get a bigger warm glow
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from helping others. You're more willing to be helped by others. It's basically, you know,
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endocannabinoids support our interdependent nature as a species. And I think that that's so fascinating
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how that goes hand in hand with our sort of the need for human beings to persist and to work hard and to
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chase what we want, that the, you know, the same, the same brain reward we get for that also reminds
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us to share it with others that, you know, we're not in this only for ourselves. And that really,
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I think that describes human nature actually pretty well, that we're willing to work hard. And also
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when we are at our best, we are willing to, you know, to, to share. We, we enjoy, if we go out and,
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you know, get our dinner, we enjoy sharing it with our friends and with our family.
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And so the exercise high actually primes us to do both and bring both of those aspects of our human
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Right. So it's an exercise high. It's not a runner's high. You can have this, do whatever it is you like
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to do. It's nothing against runners. I, one of the reasons I focus, I start with the runner's high in
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the book and why I include a lot of stories about runners is I'm married to a runner. My twin sister
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is a devoted runner. I have a lot of runners in my life and I wanted to understand why they are so
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particularly passionate about it. Because I will tell you, runners have the most interesting
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relationship to movement. I think of any people that I've spoken to and runners can tell you,
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runners can tell you from their direct experience, all the things that I learned by digging into the
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And we'll talk some more about the things about runners do. So I'm going to have to do the
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To tap. Yes. Dance is one hiking, but yeah, the Cotton Eye Joe, I'm going to dance.
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All right. So let's talk about this feeling. Exercise feels good. For some people can feel
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that feel good feeling they get from exercise can almost feel like they're compelled or they're
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addicted. And if like they miss a run or they miss a workout, you get really pissy, get down in the
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dumps. But is it the same thing that's going on with like addiction to drugs going on with exercise?
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This is a question that I decided to explore pretty thoroughly because certainly I know in my own
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life that if I'm unable to exercise as much as I usually do because of travel or illness or injury,
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or it was a period of my time dealing with grief where I just, my brain did not want to help me
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move. I definitely noticed the effect that it has on my wellbeing. And you know, one of the very first
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studies that I came across when I was looking into this, it was from the 1970s and they were trying
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to pay people to stop exercising, to study how it influences your sleep quality. And these poor
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psychiatrists, they could not find anyone who was willing to be paid any amount of money to stop
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exercising who already exercised regularly. And even the ones who were willing to reduce it,
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they complained about exercise deprivation and severe mood disturbances. They were so unhappy and
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miserable because they couldn't exercise. So I was curious, is this something that,
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is this like a harmful addiction that most people are struggling with? Like what's going on here?
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And I'll give you sort of the spoilers to start with. First of all, most people who are addicted
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to exercise have a very healthy functional dependence on it, as opposed to a really unhealthy
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self-destructive dependence, although that's possible. And often the people who fall into that
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self-destructive dependence where, you know, they, they are working out, you know, all day, they're
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working out despite injuries, it's ruining relationships, it's getting in the way of work, it's maybe,
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you know, destroying their health, but they're, they just, they have to do more and more.
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Most of those cases, it starts with a mental health challenge. And because exercise is so powerful
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at immediately making you feel better and also helping your brain deal with stress and anxiety
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and depression, it's one of the only things that reliably works. And so a lot of people who fall into
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that unhealthy dependence, it's almost like they found the miracle drug and, and their brains get
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hooked on it in a way that really can become quite dramatic. But for most people, it's a healthy
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dependence. And it's that, you know, it's such an effective way to boost your mood, to improve your
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mindset, to make you a better version of yourself. It becomes really noticeable when that's absent in
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your life. But the second spoiler that I think is so important is that we know that when most people
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get addicted to substances that exercise is often compared to, so let's say something like,
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like heroin or cocaine or methamphetamines, that the primary effect of those substances
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is to destroy your brain's capacity to experience reward from anything other than that drug. It
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basically, it like kills off your reward system. So you have less dopamine available. Your brain does
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not want to respond to a sunset or delicious food or, you know, the loving embrace of your child. Your
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brain is just like, nope, give me the cocaine. Give me the heroin. That's the only thing I'm going
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to respond to. And exercise seems to have exactly the opposite effect on your brain. And this is what
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I found most fascinating when I was trying to figure out, like, is exercise just another addiction?
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Exercise seems to be the only natural reward that, that makes your reward system more robust.
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It sensitizes your brain to other pleasures so that everything is more enjoyable.
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Actually, there was a brand new review paper that was just published about this I was looking at,
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and I pulled out a quote from it that I plan to use that says that exercise is a natural reward that
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is unique in its neuroplastic effects on the reward system. Basically, everything else you can get
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addicted to is going to make you more miserable, less motivated, and susceptible to depression and
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isolation. And exercise basically rescues you from that. So that's the bottom line.
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So yeah, so it's, so it's not like cocaine. It's like, it's like the better version of the good
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version of cocaine, of good drugs. And so going there, I mean, but like, let's be clear about
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that's because it's what the brain naturally does on its own. And you know, the reason not to get
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into, I wouldn't want to get into any sort of moral issues around this, just from a brain science
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point of view, the reason that drugs aren't good for you is because they are so overwhelmingly good
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when you first take them that your, your brain can't handle it. And you know, that's what leads
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to these unhealthy, destructive addictions. And I think, you know, the exercise, it's not that it's
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a good version of cocaine. It's that it's your brain's natural best reward and cocaine and everything
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else they're, they're in there just sort of mucking around with the brain systems, but exercise is sort
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of what your brain knows how to reward you for in a way that helps you engage with life. And there's
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something kind of metaphorical about this. Like you exercise and your brain says, oh, I'm engaged
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in life. I'm out here doing stuff that matters. That's how your brain understands physical movement.
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I'm moving forward. I'm making progress. I'm doing things that matter to me and my community. That's
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just how your brain understands it. Whether you're, you know, walking on a track or you're dancing in
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your living room with your kid, your brain just, that's how it thinks about the feedback it gets
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from your heart rate increasing and your muscles moving and all that blood flow. And that is just
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not what is happening when you take other substances that hijack the reward system.
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Well, going back to runners, one thing you point out in the book is as you're researching
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particularly ultra marathoners, a lot of the people who pick up ultra marathons, they used to,
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they're recovering addicts of some sort, or they're managing some sort of mental illness,
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Yeah. It's almost like proof of concept. So the people who end up doing the most are the ones who
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most need the medicine of exercise. And I have to say, you know, first of all, people sometimes think
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when I say exercise is good for depression, I'm saying, don't take medications or don't go to
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therapy. I'm a psychologist and I'm a scientist. So I support everything that works. And there's
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great evidence for psychotherapy and great evidence for various medications for different
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psychological illnesses. So I'm not saying if you're depressed, just go for a hike. However,
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I do think the ultra endurance community is really interesting because you have so many people in it
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who, who discovered the sport at a time when their brains were really vulnerable,
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either because of longstanding susceptibility to things like depression or having, having basically
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destroyed the reward systems, natural function through years of substance use. And when you are
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in that kind of a vulnerable state, movement is such powerful medicine that they're the ones who are
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willing to keep going further and longer. And like, you know, when I first started talking to
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ultra endurance athletes, I could not understand why you would need to do that much. I mean, of
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course, you know, I love exercise. I love how it feels in sort of its most ideal form. I'll go to
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like a fitness conference and work out for hours a day as like a special vacation. But like the idea
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that you would just keep going and keep going, keep going to test the limits of what your body can
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endure. That was really a new mindset for me. Like, why do you need to do that much? And what I learned
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from talking to them and watching what was happening at races is it's not so much that they
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need to do that much, but that they discover who they are by doing that much. And it's part of it is
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how it's medicine for the brain. And part of it also is how it really challenges the stories that so
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many people who've struggled with addiction or depression or anxiety live with those stories about,
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I can't do this. I can't take another day. I can't go another minute. It's all too much.
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Or, you know, stories about worthiness and you get literal feedback through movement that you can
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take one more step, even when it feels like you can't, that you are someone who can do amazingly
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difficult things and that you will be supported by other people when you do it. And that was the
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thing that I think finally cracked open for me, why ultra endurance sports are so powerful to the
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people who choose them. It was watching these races where, you know, people would almost be
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crawling. They're so exhausted and other people would lift them up and carry them forward.
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And that like every athlete, when I asked them, tell me about why you do this, why it matters.
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Almost everyone I talked to, they start with and end with community. And that, that experience of
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getting to, in a single race, help other people be helped by other people, be cheered on and be
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celebrated for your strengths and to get to do that for other people. It is the most beautiful
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expression of, of getting to be like on the full circle of social support and human connection.
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Yeah. I thought that was really interesting about the ultra marathoners where they said they,
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they do it for the part of the big reasons they do for the community. Cause you think of ultra
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marathon as more of like a loner sport. Cause you're just out there by yourself, right? For,
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for parts of it. Yeah. For, yeah. For a lot of, yeah. For parts of it for a long time,
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but the way you describe it, people, there's a, there's definitely a community there where
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everyone's just supporting one another. There's not, it's not, it's not very competitive. It's
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just like, it's more about lifting each other up. Yeah. One, one runner told me the difference
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between a marathon and an ultra marathon is when you're running a marathon, everyone in the race
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is an impediment to your best time. And it's sort of annoying that there are all these other people
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on the road or on the trail. And that in an ultra marathon, it's so hard. You are just grateful that
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other people are in this with you. And like, it helps to think about other people sharing
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in the struggle and you need them. And so when someone is there and they're willing to cheer
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you on or help you out, you just, you need people in a different way. I thought that was so
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interesting. I mean, I'm sure I would feel that way. If I tried to run a marathon, I'd be like,
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please help, help. But I thought that was such an interesting distinction that that was why somebody
00:22:58.740
would choose an ultra marathon over just competing to be their best in the way that, you know, a lot
00:23:04.260
of people can get hung up on personal bests and, you know, time, timing and records when they first
00:23:08.700
get involved in running. And, uh, it seems to be a different experience in the ultra world.
00:23:13.180
So let's dig in more to this idea of moving within groups because you unpacked a lot of research
00:23:18.420
from sociologists, anthropologists highlighting the fact that human beings love to move in unison with
00:23:26.560
one another. Yes. Okay. So let's talk about that. There's a word for it that I use collective
00:23:33.260
joy. And, um, that's a, I think it's a spinoff of the idea of collective effervescence, which is this
00:23:40.220
concept that Emile Durkheim put forward to describe why human beings get a thrill when they physically
00:23:48.540
move together in celebration and ritual in prayer and physical labor and cooperation. This idea
00:23:56.400
that when we move together, we feel connected to something bigger than ourselves. And there's
00:24:02.080
something it's, it requires our bodies. It's not an idea. It's a physical experience. And so, you
00:24:09.240
know, he observed it just thinking about human nature. And then recently psychologists and
00:24:14.580
neuroscientists have tried to study what's happening in the brain when people feel connected to others
00:24:19.780
because they're doing a wave at a sporting event or they're, you know, step touching together in an
00:24:25.100
aerobics class or, you know, they're walking in stride together in the park. Why do people feel
00:24:31.660
so empowered and so connected? And it's a couple of different things that seem to be going on,
00:24:37.020
but one of them is that moving together seems to be one of the ways that humans socially groom one
00:24:43.700
another. So I don't know if you've seen these like videos of primates where they'll like pick ticks off
00:24:48.540
one another, brush, brush one another's hair. You know, like you've seen that stuff.
00:24:55.100
So that's how, that's how primates often bond and it releases endorphins and those endorphins are like
00:25:01.640
a bonding hormone. So when you experience an endorphin rush at the same time that somebody
00:25:07.000
else is experiencing an endorphin rush and you understand that experience as connected,
00:25:10.860
it's like social glue. It makes you like the other person more, trust them more. Or if you're
00:25:15.880
a primate, like the other primate more, trust them more. You're more willing to help them out later on.
00:25:20.620
And so, so primate researchers call that social grooming. And it seems like humans have a couple
00:25:25.260
of different forms of being able to socially groom in groups. So, you know, you wouldn't
00:25:30.220
necessarily be like in a brushing one another's hair and like a group situation, but you can dance
00:25:36.020
together. You can also sing together. You can laugh together. You can eat together. These are sort of
00:25:42.020
forms of social grooming. They all release endorphins and movement seems particularly powerful that when
00:25:47.380
you move with other people, it leads to an endorphin rush that makes you like them more
00:25:51.320
and trust them more. And the same endorphins start to give you this kind of euphoria that
00:25:55.580
Durkheim was talking about, the sense of, of transcendence. And, you know, when it's extreme,
00:26:01.760
this it's, it really is a thrill that you feel like you've escaped sort of the confines of your
00:26:06.980
small, narrow reality. And you just are connected to an energy and a possibility bigger than yourself,
00:26:12.980
you know, go to a rave and people will talk about that. Go to, you know, a religious experience where
00:26:18.360
people are moving together. People will tell you about that. Yeah. I think everyone's, I've
00:26:21.900
experienced that at a concert, right? Like go to a really good concert and you just like music,
00:26:26.360
oh yeah. It enhances collective joy. Yeah. And that's why I think exercise classes have figured
00:26:30.020
this out. Even movement forms that traditionally were not done to a soundtrack, like flow yoga.
00:26:36.520
Here in the West, music has become a very important part of that because as you mentioned earlier,
00:26:40.600
people are so lonely and lacking a sense of belonging. And as soon as you add a positive
00:26:46.500
soundtrack or you move to the beat of music, along with moving in synchrony with other people,
00:26:53.020
the music has such a powerful amplifying effect. I think it's why I love group fitness because,
00:26:59.200
you know, whether I'm kickboxing or lifting weights or dancing or doing yoga,
00:27:02.280
it's always to a soundtrack that really brings out that joy.
00:27:07.360
We're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.
00:27:12.540
Well, I want to talk about music because you have a whole chapter to that, but going back to this
00:27:16.260
idea of exercising or moving within groups, you also highlight an insight from a historian,
00:27:22.040
this guy named William McNeil, who's a World War II vet. And he had this idea about troops who train
00:27:28.160
together. They create what he called muscular bonding and that it actually created what they call
00:27:34.060
we agency, W-E agency. So talk about that idea of muscular bonding and we agency.
00:27:39.100
Yeah. So, right. So Durkheim really focused on the joy aspect of it, the euphoria and the ecstasy
00:27:45.080
and the belonging aspect. But what McNeil noticed when he was doing marching drills is that he felt
00:27:52.400
empowered that when he was marching in step with others, that he began to feel, he would describe
00:28:00.920
it as like a swelling, like bigger than a bigger sense of self that felt powerful. And this is one
00:28:09.020
of the other observations about the psychological effects of moving in groups or moving with other
00:28:13.620
people that you don't just like the people you're moving with more, but somehow your sense of self
00:28:18.700
becomes bigger. And so it's one of the reasons why, you know, people will often come together and move
00:28:25.820
together in the name of fighting some threat that feels really big and really overwhelming,
00:28:31.920
whether you are walking for a cure or people come together for a protest march when they're
00:28:37.880
outraged over something that is happening in their society, that people often come together and move
00:28:42.560
together because it creates a sense of power, personal and collective, and also interestingly increases a
00:28:51.300
sense of hope. So people can start out outraged at something or despairing, hopeless, and moving
00:28:57.620
together. Studies show that it increases your belief that the problem can be solved. It increases your
00:29:03.860
belief that other people are basically good and trustworthy rather than that other people can't be
00:29:10.840
trusted, which is, you know, such an important part of our well-being as a society is to believe that
00:29:16.620
other people can be worked with. That moving together creates that mindset that gives you a
00:29:22.160
sense of hope. That's the we agency part. So I think that a lot of people will experience that as a
00:29:27.120
psychological side benefit from, you know, sports drills or, you know, at a place of CrossFit where
00:29:32.460
people are doing difficult things together. A lot of people have that sense that it does remind them
00:29:37.120
of kind of a military training that is designed to give you confidence that you can face anything.
00:29:43.480
So it makes you feel stronger, which makes the group stronger because you have that confidence to
00:29:48.060
act. Yes, that too. It actually does seem to make groups stronger and it also makes them more
00:29:53.580
intimidating to others. One of my favorite studies that I write about, they played these soundtracks
00:29:58.340
of enemies approaching and you had to rate how basically threatening and strong you thought the
00:30:03.100
enemy was based on just hearing them. And if the footsteps were in sync, people were like,
00:30:08.400
wow, like that, I, I think that they are stronger. They are more sort of unified in their mission.
00:30:14.400
And also like even imagine them as being physically larger than people approaching who were not walking
00:30:20.700
in, in step. So this is, it's, it's a real effect that moving together increases your sense of power.
00:30:26.460
It increases other people's perception of your power. And I think this is like, this is a great
00:30:31.060
example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. So, you know, I think a lot, one of the themes that runs through
00:30:36.560
all of my work is that the beliefs that you hold about yourself and the world, they alter your
00:30:42.860
physiology, they alter your brain function, they alter your behaviors, they alter how you present
00:30:47.540
yourself to others in a way that has like really powerful effects on how other people perceive you,
00:30:52.980
what you draw out of situations, how the world treats you. And it's, it's this huge upward spiral or
00:30:58.980
could be a downward spiral. And I think this is one of the, the underestimated benefits of exercise or
00:31:05.220
movement training that it gives you a sense of personal power that seems to also go along with
00:31:13.200
a sense that other people can be trusted or, or worked with so that you go out in the world with
00:31:20.480
a sense of confidence that is also open to positive possibilities. And that's like a kind of a unique,
00:31:26.900
interesting mindset that can lead to advantages in a number of different situations and relationships.
00:31:32.600
And then that's one of the ways that exercise can sort of change who you are.
00:31:36.720
So yeah, this, I mean, I think you see teams like sports teams, they have like little rituals they do
00:31:41.160
before they actually play where they're syncing together, whether it's a warmup or it could even
00:31:45.640
be something like the New Zealand all black where they do the haka before the games. And it's that same
00:31:51.860
idea. Like it, it builds up that we agency, that muscular bonding.
00:31:56.260
I'm still waiting for someone to culturally appropriate that and turn that into a group fitness class.
00:32:00.540
Yeah. I'm sure it's going to happen eventually because it seems like such a powerful.
00:32:05.860
Yeah. We did that at my, like when I played football in high school, like we did the haka
00:32:09.320
before because we had, we had this kid who was Maori and he taught us how to do the haka and it
00:32:12.880
was, it was really cool. So let's talk about what's the practical application. Like how can
00:32:17.900
individuals and groups like organizations, whether it's a community organization, a business,
00:32:23.260
a nonprofit, how can they harness this idea of muscular bonding to improve and foster health and
00:32:29.220
bonding within an individual and within the group? Yeah. I mean, if I were to make a sort of a
00:32:35.560
realistic suggestion, so often what people think is, well, we'll do a one-off event. We'll send all
00:32:40.520
our teams, our employees to an obstacle course, or we'll do like a single walk for a cure. But I mean,
00:32:47.960
really this is about building a sense of community and agency over time through repeated movement
00:32:54.720
experiences. So, you know, at a practical level, people need to have an opportunity to move
00:33:01.040
collectively on a regular basis. And so the way you take advantage of this, if you're an individual
00:33:06.520
is you find a movement community. And if you think that a team you lead or a community that you
00:33:11.860
support would benefit from this, it's about finding a way to, to make collective movement experiences
00:33:18.740
available to them on a regular basis, like in the workplace to have group fitness gyms,
00:33:23.740
to find a place in the facility where that can happen. And that is going to have a different
00:33:28.960
effect on the people in that community than putting some treadmills in an empty office where
00:33:34.360
people are not moving collectively. You know, you might think, oh, they're both good for physical
00:33:38.640
health, but they're going to probably have some pretty different psychological consequences for
00:33:43.240
the community. And that's, you know, I also think that part of understanding our motivation for
00:33:50.860
movement is that it can lead you to choose movement experiences that give you what you're really
00:33:57.440
looking for. So, so far, you know, just in this conversation already, we've talked about different
00:34:01.920
positive outcomes from movement, changing how you think about yourself, you know, changing your brain's
00:34:07.720
sensitivity to joy and stress and reward, helping you find that sense of belonging. And I think part
00:34:14.060
of the, one of the takeaways that I want to give people is you have to stop thinking about movement
00:34:18.020
from the way we usually think about it, which is to look at how many steps are on your activity tracker
00:34:22.980
or your calorie burn or what's most convenient because that's easiest. And we're so used to thinking
00:34:29.700
like when you're trying to build a new habit or do something good for your health, you know,
00:34:33.600
it's pretty common advice, start small, start easy, which can be really good advice if you're trying
00:34:38.760
to, you know, shift toward a healthier diet. But when it comes to movement, you really want to go
00:34:44.020
all in and look for the thing that actually brings you meaning or joy or community. And I think that's
00:34:52.420
the other like really practical takeaway for people is to stop thinking so small about movement. And I
00:34:57.520
realized like, yes, we're all busy. It's hard to fit movement in, but you are far more likely to stick
00:35:03.040
with something that is giving you immediate joy or helping you bond with others, right? Or,
00:35:08.460
or empowering you rather than the thing that's easiest to do. And then, you know, is not giving
00:35:15.720
you those other joys. Right. And I think the takeaway from there too far on an individual level
00:35:19.820
is say, if you, if you've had a hard time, you know, making exercise a habit, you've probably done
00:35:23.960
the typical like individual, I'm going to go to the gym by myself and try to, instead of doing that,
00:35:29.560
like join a group. It could be, I mean, there's tons of fitness groups out there. There's pretty
00:35:33.680
much anything for anything you can think of jujitsu. And lots of them are free and many of
00:35:37.820
them are outdoors. I mean, any, it's any movement form you can imagine. There's probably a social
00:35:42.620
version of it and ones that are available, you know, sort of whatever kind of community you want
00:35:47.080
to connect with. I think that is definitely a takeaway. Although, you know, also one of the things
00:35:51.980
that I like to point out to people is if you're somebody who really wants movement as alone time,
00:35:57.040
like you just, you need it for yourself. That feels like what is right for you to trust that
00:36:03.160
instinct. And to know that, you know, as we talked about the, the exercise high, that part of what it
00:36:09.280
does is it creates a neurochemistry that helps you connect with others. And that persists for at least
00:36:14.320
a couple hours afterward. So you could go exercise on your own and have the idea that you're basically
00:36:19.200
priming yourself to return to work or return to your relationships, a version of yourself who's going
00:36:24.080
to be more open to connecting with others. So I want to circle back to this idea of music.
00:36:28.720
You talk about how it can amplify that, that collective effervescence. But it can also,
00:36:33.160
you highlight research that music can actually motivate you. There's something to the idea of
00:36:37.240
a pump up song. So do they have like, have they scientifically figured out like what is the
00:36:42.000
perfect pump up song for exercise? So researchers have identified qualities that make it more likely
00:36:48.220
that a song will bring out the best in you, that will help you work harder, work longer,
00:36:54.660
you know, beat your speed record. So there are certain characteristics of songs, but it's always
00:36:59.800
going to also come down to individual preferences and cultural associations. So, you know, one of my
00:37:05.340
favorite, two of my favorite power songs, one is called Move, Keep Walking by Toby Mac and the other
00:37:11.540
is Warrior by Havana Brown. And what I've realized is that for whatever reason, songs that sing about being
00:37:17.620
a warrior, move, keep walking on, there's this line about being a soldier, keep fighting. So something
00:37:23.020
about that, that brings out in me, a spirit that is willing to work harder, push harder and enjoy
00:37:29.420
the movement more. Like the sweat means something different when I've got someone singing in my ear
00:37:34.120
about being a warrior. Whereas other people that is going to be like, not for them. But if you're
00:37:39.420
looking at what to start with, there seems to be a tempo that is universally supportive of movement.
00:37:45.380
So around the world, 120 to 140 beats per minute seems to be most motivating. Now that's most pop
00:37:54.380
and dance songs. I actually speed up hip hop tracks that I play because most hip hop tracks are a little
00:37:58.640
slower than that. Speed them up a little bit for workouts. And they also tend to have a very clear
00:38:04.160
beat that you can synchronize your stride or your movement with. Power songs also tend to have an
00:38:11.480
energetic or upbeat feel. It doesn't necessarily mean happy, but that there's a sense of drive to it.
00:38:17.720
And also lyrics seem to be super important. So I mentioned, I like lyrics about fighting and
00:38:22.320
keep going and being a warrior. And a lot of the songs that bring out the best in people
00:38:28.180
physically and psychologically, they seem to have lyrics that are either about physical action,
00:38:34.600
like move, run, go, work, or about psychological attributes that you experience through movement,
00:38:43.440
like strength and persistence and courage. And sometimes gratitude, which is one that has come
00:38:49.120
up talking to a number of people. They love music that feels like a celebration and that really
00:38:53.780
supports their ability to keep moving. And then also music that you associate with a positive time in
00:38:59.960
your life or positive memories, or just positive things you enjoy, like the soundtrack from a film.
00:39:05.520
All of those narrative memories can come in and make you feel a certain way, which changes how you
00:39:11.440
interpret what it means that your legs are getting tired or that your heart is pounding.
00:39:18.820
No, I'm the same with the power song. My power song for when I'm doing PRs, when I'm late lifting,
00:39:23.560
my two go-to is, the first one is All These Things That I've Done by The Killers.
00:39:27.580
Where it's got that line, I've got soul, but I'm not as... I fast forward to there and then I wait
00:39:33.860
until like the crescendo where they have like the... And the other one is Airborne. It's like a metal
00:39:39.160
band and they have this... I don't know that. Yeah. Back in the game is the song. Back in the game,
00:39:45.120
kicking ass. It's so cheesy, but I love it. It's fantastic. Let's talk about this because
00:39:51.280
I do feel like you have to embrace cheese. There's something about a lot of what we're talking
00:39:57.220
about that requires abandoning cynicism. So let's just talk about that. The idea that you can take
00:40:03.720
joy in moving with others, that you can take joy in helping someone out in an ultra marathon,
00:40:09.720
that you can let yourself be uplifted by lyrics in a song. I think there is a tendency for some
00:40:16.300
people to think, oh, that's a little bit silly or it's a little bit cheesy. But I am here to say
00:40:20.820
that is like the best part of human nature. We have the ability to be moved by these things
00:40:27.280
because they help us survive as a species that's part of our human nature. And so anyone who feels
00:40:33.060
a little silly about being moved by a song, I will see people move to tears by music in combination
00:40:40.380
with their own experience of their physical strength while working out, that you should embrace it,
00:40:46.880
take joy in it. This is part of what literally gives us a will to live is our capacity to experience
00:40:52.660
what can appear to be cheesy joys. I also listen to Taylor Swift sometimes when I power. I don't
00:40:59.800
feel any shame. That is a perfect example. I don't feel any shame. Shake It Off is the perfect song to
00:41:04.580
dance to with children, by the way. Talk about cheesy joys is dance parties with children. I've yet to
00:41:10.000
meet a four or five-year-old who will not immediately explode with joy when Shake It Off comes on.
00:41:16.300
It's a good one. It's a good one. It's catchy. All right. So let's start by this idea that you've
00:41:20.020
kind of, you've been hitting on about how movement can give us a sense of self. It's like it's the
00:41:25.240
thing that makes us human. It can foster confidence in our capability in the world. How have you seen
00:41:31.180
that in the research you've done of movement fostering that confidence in individuals?
00:41:37.180
Yeah. Well, so there's the research and then there's the stories I've heard. And then there are the
00:41:41.300
things that I see in my own experience teaching classes. I mean, I remember, so I've been teaching
00:41:46.500
for two decades. I remember early on as a yoga teacher, a woman who had been wanting to do a
00:41:51.820
headstand for a long time. I think she was maybe about 50 years old, never gone upside down, never
00:41:59.280
thought she could do it. And she also was a breast cancer survivor. And I remember the first time I
00:42:04.420
helped her hold a headstand and she used the wall for support. And nobody would have taken a picture
00:42:10.180
of it and said, this is the world's most perfect headstand. She held it and she used her core
00:42:15.800
strength to get into it. And when she came down, she could not stop laughing. And it was this like
00:42:21.620
uncontrollable laughter of shock, shock and positive surprise. And she just kept saying, I can't believe
00:42:28.400
I just did that. And part of it for her was, you know, the sense of after going through cancer
00:42:35.720
treatment, a sense of, you know, what's still possible for me and the way that that type of
00:42:41.260
health crisis can really undermine your sense of a positive vision for your future. And being able to
00:42:47.480
do a headstand was like a literal visceral sense of her own strength. The shock of being able to do
00:42:52.600
something she never thought she could do. And that this all happened after her cancer diagnosis and
00:42:57.680
treatment was really a meaningful moment. And I've seen things like that happen all the time,
00:43:03.520
that people do things that surprise them. They have these movement milestones and it changes what
00:43:09.520
they think that they're capable of. Now at the science level, what I think is so interesting is
00:43:15.540
that part of how we know who we are literally is proprioception. That's the feedback that your
00:43:22.820
muscles give you, that your tendons and your joints give you about what your body is doing.
00:43:28.500
And if you look at case studies of people who have lost the ability to feel their own arms,
00:43:34.000
you know, to feel their muscles, to feel their body in motion, they don't just tell you,
00:43:38.860
I don't feel my arms. They will say things like, I have no idea who I am. I'm like a ghost.
00:43:46.840
It's their sense of being a person is so hard to grasp onto because so much of our sense of self
00:43:56.100
is delivered to us from our muscles, from the neuromuscular feedback of our bodies.
00:44:03.060
And so when you move in ways that express clear qualities, you move with power, you move with
00:44:09.960
grace, you move with freedom, speed, or beauty, or sensuality, your brain gets the message,
00:44:18.020
this is who I am. Your body gets the message, not just that my legs are powerful, but your brain
00:44:24.000
basically takes a shortcut to, I am powerful. And I think the science is really fascinating about
00:44:29.920
that because that's another way to choose your workout is to ask yourself like what movements
00:44:34.740
really reflect who you want to be in the world, the qualities that you want to express or cultivate.
00:44:41.600
And is there a movement form where you're going to literally sense that in yourself,
00:44:45.000
you'll be able to train that quality. I would say that for me, that's one of the reasons why I like
00:44:50.100
kickboxing. I remember some of the early kickboxing experiences. I was like, this is really aggressive.
00:44:55.120
I was almost scared. I'm throwing this downward street punch. I was like, who am I? I kind of like
00:45:01.760
this. And it surprised me. And I found through kickboxing a way to literally sense my own courage.
00:45:07.900
And I will often do a kickboxing workout before I have to do something that I'm feeling really anxious
00:45:13.820
about or that I can't control. So that's just, that's one example of how we can use the science
00:45:19.140
to, to get more out of our workouts. And going to the idea of, of movement,
00:45:24.680
kind of giving you a sense of self. I mean, one of the, you talk, I think you talk about this in
00:45:28.520
the book about Parkinson's patients. One of the, not only do they have issues with movement, right?
00:45:33.140
But that affects them psychologically. A lot of Parkinson's patients have, you know,
00:45:37.060
have to deal with depression as well. But what the research shows is that one of the best
00:45:42.200
things you can do as a Parkinson, if you have Parkinson's is to move, to exercise. We actually
00:45:46.320
had a guy on the podcast a while back ago, he runs a boxing gym and he specializes with
00:45:51.340
Parkinson's patients. They do like boxing workouts. Yes. I actually, so in the book,
00:45:56.140
I visited a class for a dance class for people with Parkinson's disease, but also a gym where people,
00:46:01.940
it's a boxing gym and a strength training gym for people with neurological disorders,
00:46:05.860
as well as physical disabilities. Both of them were amazing experiences because everyone is,
00:46:11.740
you know, full out experiencing the joy and the benefits of movement and community,
00:46:15.640
despite some pretty serious physical and neurological obstacles. And the thing about
00:46:21.220
Parkinson's that is so interesting is we think about walking as like the first thing that becomes
00:46:27.040
challenging, or, you know, we become aware of symptoms like tremors when you're reaching for
00:46:30.820
something. And we know that reaching, walking, you know, running, dancing, all of that,
00:46:36.120
that's a movement. We don't often appreciate how much communication is also a movement,
00:46:41.980
whether you're making hand gestures or you're hugging someone, or even making eye contact with
00:46:47.740
people, the expressions on your face, smiling, that is all movement. And one of the things that
00:46:55.120
becomes so, so overwhelmingly isolating about Parkinson's as it progresses is it's not just
00:47:01.640
something like walking that becomes difficult, but it's a motion expression. And then as a
00:47:06.400
consequence, social connection. And what I loved seeing at the dance class for people with Parkinson's
00:47:11.580
disease is that by the time they were moving and the music was so supportive of that, you know, music
00:47:17.520
literally activating the motor system of the brain, increasing dopamine to, to basically reverse some
00:47:24.400
of the symptoms of a disease that is characterized by low dopamine. Halfway through the class,
00:47:29.480
how much more they were able to connect with one another smiles, we were shaking hands. We were
00:47:36.040
interacting with one another in a, in a way that was really meaningful and joyful. And I think that
00:47:41.640
that is another example of how much movement is connected to that part of our human nature.
00:47:47.520
And, you know, we started out talking about how the runner's high can help you connect with others by
00:47:51.940
changing your brain chemistry. And this was just the Parkinson's class was just a perfect example of that,
00:47:56.820
how we also need to be able to move in order to connect with one another. And every form of
00:48:01.960
exercise we do is basically enhancing that capacity.
00:48:05.220
So we've talked about how exercising can make us feel good. Exercising makes us want to bond bond,
00:48:11.260
you know, exercising with groups kind of promotes that idea of wanting to move more music can amplify
00:48:16.400
that, but something that can supercharge all these benefits of movement is moving outside in the
00:48:22.540
great outdoors and nature. What's going on in our brains when we exercise outside?
00:48:26.500
This is a really new field of research. So I'll tell you that I'm being sort of speculative about
00:48:31.820
this, but I like doing that sometimes. It's like, like, where's the science pointing us? And we'll find
00:48:37.240
out if we can confirm this. So when people exercise outdoors, they often report feeling different in a way
00:48:44.640
that transcends the feel better effect. And they describe things that when you actually like lay it out side by
00:48:49.800
side, it looks a lot like what people report when they are taking entheogens, which is the class of
00:48:54.960
drugs that include LSD and ayahuasca and mushrooms, you know, drugs that are meant to induce a spiritual
00:49:01.720
experience to change your consciousness in, in ways that are often very positive. And people will talk
00:49:08.300
about, you know, feeling at one with the universe, feeling a sense of love and connection, a sense of
00:49:14.440
themselves sort of dissolving into something. You can't even describe it in words. It's sort of like
00:49:20.980
words fail. And one of the ideas about why people experience that kind of self-transcendence and unity
00:49:28.760
sensation in nature is that when we're out in nature, our default state of the brain changes. So we know that
00:49:37.760
most people's brains, when you leave them to their own devices and don't give them something else to focus
00:49:42.860
on the brain defaults to rumination, worrying, judging other people, judging ourselves, planning.
00:49:52.840
It's, it's a, I'm sure everyone listening to this understands what that state is. If you have
00:49:57.420
trouble falling asleep at night, you know what it is. That's the content of your insomnia. It's one of
00:50:01.920
the reasons why we're so attracted to our phones, because sometimes we just, if we leave our mind to
00:50:07.280
our own devices, it just goes to places we don't want to go. So we were looking for some sort of
00:50:11.640
positive distraction. So that's the default state. Most human brains go there by default when there's
00:50:17.920
nothing else to focus on. And it seems like that nature shuts that down. That when people are out in
00:50:24.340
nature, the parts of the default state that are focused inward on worry, rumination, time travel, like
00:50:31.800
thinking about the past or the future, that those systems, the brain, they basically, they quiet down.
00:50:37.120
And instead the brain becomes open to the present moment, including senses, what you see, what you
00:50:43.640
smell, what you hear, what you feel in your body. And it's that kind of relief from the default state
00:50:50.620
and that inner chatter that feels transcendent to people. That is a spiritual experience. And funnily
00:50:57.340
enough, if you look at some of the new brain science on what entheogens do to the brain, something like
00:51:02.700
LSD, it is disrupting the default state, sometimes in much more chaotic ways than being in nature.
00:51:10.720
Nature seems to quiet it down. Drugs like LSD and ayahuasca seem to go in and like create really new
00:51:17.160
and interesting default states, things that are different from our usual default. But all of those
00:51:22.220
drugs, they basically are working on this, it's like shutting down that same inner narrative. So I think
00:51:28.580
that's why a lot of people who love exercising in nature, they talk about it as being like a therapy
00:51:34.040
for their minds, that it is one of the places where they can get relief if their minds are not
00:51:39.800
always an easy place to be. And in a lot of people in our modern world, like they're suffering a nature
00:51:45.600
deficit. So they're always in that default mode. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's, so one of the things that
00:51:52.560
I speculate about in the book, and this is to be clear, this is my idea. So if it's wrong, I'll take
00:51:57.680
full responsibility for it because I'm somebody who has studied meditation for decades and has
00:52:03.960
researched it. And one of the things that I've always struggled with is the meditation masters
00:52:08.640
in every tradition, they will tell you that the default state of the human mind is basically this,
00:52:13.280
this transcendent happiness, this ease, this peace of mind. And they will tell you in all these
00:52:19.580
traditions, that is the default state. And that really flies against the neuroscience research
00:52:24.280
that if you actually look at what the human brain does, by default, the natural state seems to be
00:52:29.300
something much closer to mental suffering. And what I began to think about is, you know, maybe we have
00:52:35.720
two default states and we have the default state that is pulled out of us by the environment we live
00:52:42.140
in, which is indoors, often in these sort of social situations that encourage us to think about
00:52:48.280
ourselves and think about other people, you know, in environments and relationships and roles that
00:52:52.920
are encouraging us to time travel, to try to, you know, fix the future or reflect on the past. But maybe
00:52:59.260
there's another default state that is associated with that human, early human need to go out into nature
00:53:05.860
and find things, to find food, to find safety. And maybe the human brain has this other default state
00:53:13.500
that basically is stop thinking about all that other stuff, pay attention to the present moment,
00:53:19.560
find out what's possible in this moment. And when people are in that state, they tend to feel really
00:53:25.360
good. They tend to have that kind of peace of mind that meditation masters tell us is the default state.
00:53:32.060
So, you know, I'm thinking maybe that one of the reasons why so many people are struggling
00:53:35.580
with mental health issues is that we do have this nature deficit. And there's some research that has
00:53:41.440
even put a number on it, like a certain percentage of cases of depression worldwide could be prevented
00:53:46.820
if people spent more time in a natural environment where they feel safe and they feel inspired. That's
00:53:53.060
an important one. Like if you threw me into the woods, I think I would just probably be scared,
00:53:57.840
but you put me in like a beautiful park or like, you know, a waterfront walk place where I can see
00:54:03.400
buildings and other people and I'll have that kind of nature effect.
00:54:07.360
Right. So the takeaway there, go out and take a hike in the woods. Well, maybe not for you.
00:54:13.720
You got to think about where you feel safe and where you feel inspired.
00:54:16.640
But then also take someone with you, like a friend.
00:54:19.720
Well, no, but it's so interesting, right? Because we've talked so much about how important other
00:54:22.820
people are, but I would say most people who love exercising in nature, they are the ones who tell
00:54:27.520
me they want to do it by themselves too. And again, I think it's that you have to trust,
00:54:31.900
you have to go with your direct experience. Movement is personalized medicine that you kind
00:54:37.640
of, it's a do-it-yourself personalized medicine. And there is a form of exercise or movement that
00:54:43.740
can heal almost any sort of human suffering, but it's not all of it for all of us. Like you and I
00:54:52.380
We got our thing. So like, what's something someone can do, who's listening to this episode
00:54:55.480
right now can do today to start enjoying the joy of movement?
00:55:00.300
Well, so one thing that you can do without actually moving yet is to think about the forms
00:55:05.160
of movement that inspire you. So I often ask people, if you were to be on YouTube or something,
00:55:11.500
is there a video you would pause and watch? You're scrolling through Instagram. Is there something
00:55:16.000
you would pause and watch and think that's really cool? That's really interesting. I'm really impressed.
00:55:21.900
Something like that. And to think about what the version of that movement is that would work for
00:55:26.320
your body and your life right now. I think we don't often use inspiration as our first motivation,
00:55:33.460
but if there's a form of movement that inspires you, and maybe even there's a voice in your head
00:55:37.420
that says, I could never do that. I could never do power lifting, or I could never run a marathon,
00:55:43.360
or I'd be too embarrassed to go to that dance class. Although I will watch this video of these people
00:55:48.540
doing this amazing choreography, that's like the perfect movement form to start with.
00:55:53.480
So that's what the first encouragement is to think about inspiration as your motivation,
00:55:57.920
rather than burning calories or convenience. And the other thing is to think about a movement you
00:56:05.320
can do today that feels connected to other things that you enjoy in life and want to experience more
00:56:11.400
joy with. And you can do a very small dose of this. So you and I have talked about a number of
00:56:15.600
things today that bring out the human capacity for joy, connecting with other people, being in nature,
00:56:23.540
listening to music. Those are some very simple ones. So what if you think about the one that brings out
00:56:28.800
the most joy in you, and then just do it. So go for a walk with your dog. If your dog brings out the joy in
00:56:35.700
you, have a dance party with your roommate or your kid or your spouse. If connecting with other people
00:56:41.820
brings out the joy in you or music brings out the joy in you, go find a place in nature where you can
00:56:46.720
do some stretches or take a walk. And that's one of the best things about movement is when you abandon
00:56:52.740
the idea that it has to look like a specific exercise formula that has been carefully crafted
00:56:58.840
to give you the best muscle outcome or whatever. When you start to think movement is about life and
00:57:05.360
movement can connect you to joys in a really deep way, it will lead you to forms of movement that
00:57:12.280
really take advantage of how exercise changes our brain chemistry and expands our capacity for
00:57:17.720
connection and joy and all of that. Well, Kelly, is there someplace people can go learn more about
00:57:22.020
the book and your work? Well, the book is The Joy of Movement. And yeah, I'm just, I'm out there
00:57:27.760
encouraging people on social media under my own name, where you can find me at kellymcgonigle.com.
00:57:32.560
All right. Well, Kelly McGonigle, thanks so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.
00:57:36.300
My guest today was Kelly McGonigle. She's the author of the book, The Joy of Movement. It's
00:57:40.200
available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find out more information about her work
00:57:43.940
at our website, kellymcgonigle.com. Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash kellymcgonigle.
00:57:49.300
You can find links to resources, re-delve deeper into this topic.
00:57:59.040
Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast. Check out our website
00:58:02.420
at artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives. There's over 500 episodes
00:58:06.300
there, as well as thousands of articles we've written over the years about exercise, movement,
00:58:10.260
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00:58:38.760
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