The Art of Manliness - #589： How Exercise Helps Us Find Happiness, Hope, Connection, and Courage

00:00:00.000 I'm Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.040 You know how good moving your body is for your physical health.

00:00:13.640 You probably have a vague sense that it's good for your mental health too, but you likely

00:00:16.760 don't realize just how powerful movement truly is for your mind, and that it even affects

00:00:20.660 your sense of hope, courage, connection, and identity.

00:00:23.440 My guest today explores these lesser appreciated impacts of physical activity in our new book,

00:00:27.200 The Joy of Movement.

00:00:28.060 Her name is Kelly McGonigal, and she's a research psychologist and lecturer at Stanford University.

00:00:32.300 We get her on the podcast a while back to discuss willpower.

00:00:35.280 That's episode number 531 if you want to check that out.

00:00:37.980 Kelly and I begin our discussion today with the idea of the runner's high and whether you

00:00:41.460 can get it from doing forms of exercise other than running.

00:00:43.780 We then discuss how exercise can become powerfully addictive and yet be a uniquely healthy form

00:00:48.260 of addiction that improves instead of destroys mental health.

00:00:51.040 We then discuss the way that moving our bodies with others can generate collective joy as

00:00:54.860 well as muscular bonding that makes a group feel stronger and bigger.

00:00:58.060 We also get into what elements go into an ideal pump-up song, how physical movement helps

00:01:02.000 create your sense of self, and why exercising in nature seems to amplify all its beneficial

00:01:06.240 effects.

00:01:07.020 We end our conversation with what you can start doing today to get more of the potent benefits

00:01:10.720 of physical movement.

00:01:11.900 After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash joyofmovement.

00:01:15.720 All right, Kelly McGonigal, welcome back to the show.

00:01:29.640 Thanks for having me back.

00:01:31.060 So you got a new book, The Joy of Movement, How Exercise Helps Us Find Happiness, Hope,

00:01:35.740 Connection, and Courage.

00:01:37.240 So we had you on the show last time to talk about the willpower instinct.

00:01:40.600 We talked all about willpower.

00:01:41.660 How did you make the jump from willpower to movement in your research and writing?

00:01:47.420 Well, so this is really a personal story.

00:01:49.820 Although most people know me best as a psychologist, I've actually been teaching group exercise

00:01:54.400 for 20 years.

00:01:55.660 Everything from yoga and dance to traditional fitness activities like strength training and

00:02:00.640 cardio.

00:02:01.760 And exercise has pretty much always been the number one thing I do to support my mental health,

00:02:08.180 the sort of thing that I can choose to do that helps me deal with stress and anxiety

00:02:13.620 and depression.

00:02:15.420 So I, you know, I, I so excited to finally write this book because so much science has

00:02:20.160 come out in the last decade that is all inspiring, that blows my mind about how deep the relationship

00:02:26.160 between exercise and mental health and happiness is.

00:02:29.720 So it wasn't much of a jump.

00:02:31.460 It's more like a, it was finally time.

00:02:33.880 Right.

00:02:34.780 So you said, I like how you, you, your connection to exercise is about mental health because

00:02:39.000 usually books about exercise, it's all about cardiovascular health.

00:02:42.700 You need exercise because it's good for you, but your focus on this book was the emotional

00:02:46.960 mental aspect of movement.

00:02:49.000 Yes.

00:02:49.580 And of course it's true that exercise is good for your physical health.

00:02:53.060 I think most people know that, but I think most people don't understand how deep the connection

00:02:58.200 is between moving your body and taking care of your brain.

00:03:02.120 Most people don't understand the deep relationship between movement and sense of self, self-confidence,

00:03:08.180 your, your belief in a positive future for yourself and also social connection and how

00:03:12.700 we find our place in the world.

00:03:14.080 And so, you know, I want to talk about something that I think is exciting because it demonstrates

00:03:19.500 the value of movement for every body, sort of no matter what your age, what your size,

00:03:25.160 what your physical health status, if you have disabilities, injuries, severe mental health

00:03:30.080 challenges, the research is really clear that no matter who you are, where you live and

00:03:35.740 what your status is, any way you want to slice it, that if you move your body more in whatever

00:03:40.760 way you can, that it pretty much guarantees that you'll be happier and feel more connected

00:03:45.860 to others.

00:03:47.100 So I like talking about it from that perspective too, because I think too often we associate

00:03:51.000 exercise with feeling like our body's the enemy.

00:03:53.940 We're trying to control our bodies or we're trying to fix our bodies or focus on making

00:03:57.880 our bodies look acceptable to other people or more attractive to other people.

00:04:02.160 And I don't know, that's kind of joyless.

00:04:04.260 And I wanted to focus on how much exercise gives us both immediately, like the mood boost

00:04:10.460 that you can get as soon as you move your body to like the really deep meaning that people

00:04:15.040 often find in pursuing mastery in different forms of movement or the true belonging that they

00:04:21.240 feel in communities where they move.

00:04:23.060 And I like that, the focus on the community aspect, because that's a growing problem in

00:04:27.600 Western countries is a sense of isolation and feeling like you're alone.

00:04:32.120 And exercise can be a way to overlook that.

00:04:34.200 We'll get into that, why that happens, but I really loved how you focused on that.

00:04:38.140 So let's talk about the one thing that people typically associate with physical activity

00:04:42.540 and boosting their mood, and it's the runner's high, the mythical runner's high.

00:04:47.620 Now, I don't think I've ever experienced the runner's high.

00:04:49.960 Now, are you a runner?

00:04:51.120 I'm not a runner.

00:04:51.800 Yeah, I'm not a runner either.

00:04:53.560 So have you felt it?

00:04:56.080 Oh, yeah.

00:04:56.720 I feel it all the time, just not from running.

00:04:58.940 I mean, so here's the thing with running.

00:05:00.060 It's a very specific physical movement form.

00:05:02.440 If you don't train for it, it's pretty miserable, and I have never trained for it.

00:05:06.900 So if I have to run around the block, I'm like huffing and puffing.

00:05:09.560 But put me in like a dance cardio room, I can dance for hours.

00:05:12.860 So I get my high in other ways, from kickboxing, from strength training, from flow yoga, from

00:05:18.100 dance.

00:05:19.000 The runner's high is not exclusive to running.

00:05:21.880 It can be experienced in any physical activity where basically you get your heart rate up a

00:05:26.720 little bit and you keep going.

00:05:28.780 In the book, I call it a persistence high because the only thing that really seems to be required

00:05:33.440 to trigger it is that you do something moderately difficult.

00:05:37.840 You get your heart rate up a little bit.

00:05:39.200 You're breathing a little bit more.

00:05:40.740 Maybe you break a sweat and you do it for maybe 20 minutes or so.

00:05:45.080 That's where it really seems to kick in.

00:05:47.100 So have you experienced that in physical forms of movement other than running?

00:05:51.160 Yeah.

00:05:51.540 Maybe like dances in high school, right?

00:05:54.320 They'd be like an hour and a half long.

00:05:55.740 You're just moving the entire time to whatever, Cotton Eye Joe. 0.70

00:06:00.020 Is that what we listened to back then, I think?

00:06:01.480 Did you?

00:06:02.540 Yeah, it's a great song.

00:06:04.400 So for those, how do people describe what it feels like?

00:06:08.360 You kind of feel euphoric, I guess, is the feeling that I can...

00:06:11.760 Yeah, I think that it's a spectrum.

00:06:13.880 So some of the quotes that I found, people describing a runner's high, it sounds to me

00:06:18.380 almost insane.

00:06:19.680 People talk about it as being like, you're on every drug imaginable and you feel it one

00:06:23.780 with the universe and you're floating and you're connected to the universe all the way

00:06:29.200 down to what I think is the lowest level of a persistence high, which is one that really

00:06:34.200 is available to pretty much everyone, even if you're not having that peak experience,

00:06:38.160 is suddenly a sense that whatever was going on inside your mind that might've been troubling

00:06:42.940 you, worries, stress, anger, self-doubt or self-criticism, that seems to recede.

00:06:49.080 People start to experience a quieter mind or more focused mind where a lot of stuff that

00:06:53.520 causes us a lot of mental suffering, that fades back.

00:06:57.380 And the same with physical pain and physical discomfort.

00:07:00.260 And at the same time, your sense of optimism, your sense of confidence, your sense of hope,

00:07:06.320 the belief that things could be good, that things are good, that seems to be enhanced.

00:07:11.020 And that's sort of like the key mental effect of any form of movement, sometimes called the

00:07:15.960 feel better effect, is an increase in energy and optimism and a decrease in stress, anxiety

00:07:21.600 and pain. And what's, you know, so interesting is we now know, even though most people think

00:07:26.340 that the reason for this feel better effect is only endorphins, it's like an endorphin

00:07:30.680 rush. And maybe, you know, the people who are having that, that insane peak experience where

00:07:35.320 they're at one with the universe, I'm sure there's some endorphins involved in that, but

00:07:40.480 that the general feel better effect seems to be driven by a class of brain chemicals called

00:07:44.660 endocannabinoids, which are the same brain chemicals that cannabis mimics. And

00:07:49.620 endocannabinoids are just this fascinating brain chemical that basically dampened down

00:07:54.680 everything that's going on in your brain that most people want to avoid, like stress and worry and

00:07:59.440 pain. And it facilitates anything good that might be happening. It enhances the pleasure that you get

00:08:06.880 from anything. It increases your motivation. It increases the joy that you feel. Anything that's

00:08:13.380 good that could trigger your brain, the endocannabinoids is going to basically amp it up.

00:08:17.940 And that's the runner's high. That's the persistence high. And again, the research is pretty clear that

00:08:22.320 you can get it from any activity, cycling, hiking, swimming, dancing, flow yoga, if you get your

00:08:29.040 heart rate up a little bit and just keep going. Do we know why our brain does that when we do that?

00:08:34.040 So there are theories. And I would say the dominant theory right now is that human beings really change

00:08:41.020 the way that they live and survive. So they had to go out and forage and hunt and gather and work

00:08:54.580 together physically to support the community. And the idea is that basically the humans who survived

00:09:00.380 were the ones whose brains rewarded them for being physically active for hours a day. So, you know,

00:09:07.380 our brains reward us for things that are necessary to survive and our brains reward us for eating and

00:09:13.280 for seeking food. Our brains reward us for mating and having sex and reproducing. Our brains reward

00:09:18.100 us for a lot of things now that probably, you know, the earliest human brain didn't reward people for,

00:09:23.260 like cooperating with others. We get that cooperation high. And it seems like, you know,

00:09:28.060 as humans became what you could consider modern humans, one of the things our brains needed to figure

00:09:32.340 out how to reward us for was being active so that we wouldn't get so lazy that we weren't willing to

00:09:38.480 put in the effort to feed ourselves, to feed our community and do the physical labor necessary to

00:09:45.340 survive as a community. So that's the idea that basically, as soon as you, it's like, you know,

00:09:50.000 our brains will try to conserve our energy if it's not necessary. So before you exercise, none of this

00:09:55.500 runner's high stuff is happening. And there's actually a pretty big gap. Like even if you just think,

00:09:59.380 oh, maybe I'll go for a walk or a run or I'll go to the gym, your brain will be like, are you really

00:10:04.020 sure? Do you really need to use that energy? And that's why it seems to take a little bit of time

00:10:09.140 to kick in. It's like when you say, this matters to me, this is a goal, I am doing this, it's real.

00:10:16.300 Then your brain is like, oh, I guess this matters. So let's reward this human being for this. And I

00:10:22.820 think that's probably why the 20 minute kick in, it's like your brain is testing you. But if you're

00:10:27.080 really on that hunt, if you're really foraging, if you're really putting in the physical labor,

00:10:31.320 your brain will say, okay, I got you. And we'll produce the brain chemicals you need to feel good

00:10:36.060 and want to keep going. So yeah, the interesting point you made about the persistence high is not

00:10:41.320 only does it make you feel good, but as you said, it makes you want to bond with others and like

00:10:46.360 other people. Suddenly people report this after they finish a 5k, like, I love everyone here.

00:10:52.000 Yes. And it's all forms of exercise. I mean, there's so many ways that this shows up. Even

00:10:57.900 like the one studio I teach at where they had to keep increasing the time between classes

00:11:01.400 because people wouldn't leave because after a workout, they were like, oh, I want to talk to

00:11:05.640 these people. Like they're my friends, even though they just moved in silence in a yoga class together.

00:11:10.560 And it is the case that that basic neurochemistry of the exercise high, one of its primary effects is to

00:11:16.840 help us bond with others. Endocannabinoids enhance social pleasures, particularly. So other people's

00:11:24.600 jokes are funnier. It's more interesting to hear other people's stories. You get a bigger warm glow

00:11:30.280 from helping others. You're more willing to be helped by others. It's basically, you know,

00:11:34.760 endocannabinoids support our interdependent nature as a species. And I think that that's so fascinating

00:11:40.900 how that goes hand in hand with our sort of the need for human beings to persist and to work hard and to

00:11:46.740 chase what we want, that the, you know, the same, the same brain reward we get for that also reminds

00:11:53.880 us to share it with others that, you know, we're not in this only for ourselves. And that really,

00:12:00.100 I think that describes human nature actually pretty well, that we're willing to work hard. And also

00:12:04.240 when we are at our best, we are willing to, you know, to, to share. We, we enjoy, if we go out and,

00:12:11.240 you know, get our dinner, we enjoy sharing it with our friends and with our family.

00:12:14.620 And so the exercise high actually primes us to do both and bring both of those aspects of our human

00:12:20.680 nature out.

00:12:21.700 Right. So it's an exercise high. It's not a runner's high. You can have this, do whatever it is you like

00:12:25.000 to do. It's nothing against runners. I, one of the reasons I focus, I start with the runner's high in

00:12:29.780 the book and why I include a lot of stories about runners is I'm married to a runner. My twin sister

00:12:35.080 is a devoted runner. I have a lot of runners in my life and I wanted to understand why they are so

00:12:41.800 particularly passionate about it. Because I will tell you, runners have the most interesting

00:12:46.340 relationship to movement. I think of any people that I've spoken to and runners can tell you,

00:12:51.120 runners can tell you from their direct experience, all the things that I learned by digging into the

00:12:54.880 science.

00:12:55.500 And we'll talk some more about the things about runners do. So I'm going to have to do the

00:12:59.100 Cotton Eye Joe, I think too. 0.63

00:13:01.340 Yeah, we can dance.

00:13:02.520 To tap. Yes. Dance is one hiking, but yeah, the Cotton Eye Joe, I'm going to dance.

00:13:05.980 All right. So let's talk about this feeling. Exercise feels good. For some people can feel

00:13:11.480 that feel good feeling they get from exercise can almost feel like they're compelled or they're

00:13:15.840 addicted. And if like they miss a run or they miss a workout, you get really pissy, get down in the

00:13:21.540 dumps. But is it the same thing that's going on with like addiction to drugs going on with exercise?

00:13:28.140 This is a question that I decided to explore pretty thoroughly because certainly I know in my own

00:13:33.140 life that if I'm unable to exercise as much as I usually do because of travel or illness or injury,

00:13:39.020 or it was a period of my time dealing with grief where I just, my brain did not want to help me

00:13:45.160 move. I definitely noticed the effect that it has on my wellbeing. And you know, one of the very first

00:13:50.460 studies that I came across when I was looking into this, it was from the 1970s and they were trying

00:13:55.040 to pay people to stop exercising, to study how it influences your sleep quality. And these poor

00:14:01.120 psychiatrists, they could not find anyone who was willing to be paid any amount of money to stop

00:14:06.200 exercising who already exercised regularly. And even the ones who were willing to reduce it,

00:14:10.920 they complained about exercise deprivation and severe mood disturbances. They were so unhappy and

00:14:16.680 miserable because they couldn't exercise. So I was curious, is this something that,

00:14:20.940 is this like a harmful addiction that most people are struggling with? Like what's going on here?

00:14:25.040 And I'll give you sort of the spoilers to start with. First of all, most people who are addicted

00:14:29.960 to exercise have a very healthy functional dependence on it, as opposed to a really unhealthy

00:14:37.260 self-destructive dependence, although that's possible. And often the people who fall into that

00:14:42.700 self-destructive dependence where, you know, they, they are working out, you know, all day, they're

00:14:47.300 working out despite injuries, it's ruining relationships, it's getting in the way of work, it's maybe,

00:14:52.220 you know, destroying their health, but they're, they just, they have to do more and more.

00:14:56.160 Most of those cases, it starts with a mental health challenge. And because exercise is so powerful

00:15:04.040 at immediately making you feel better and also helping your brain deal with stress and anxiety

00:15:09.760 and depression, it's one of the only things that reliably works. And so a lot of people who fall into

00:15:14.980 that unhealthy dependence, it's almost like they found the miracle drug and, and their brains get

00:15:20.520 hooked on it in a way that really can become quite dramatic. But for most people, it's a healthy

00:15:25.400 dependence. And it's that, you know, it's such an effective way to boost your mood, to improve your

00:15:30.180 mindset, to make you a better version of yourself. It becomes really noticeable when that's absent in

00:15:35.000 your life. But the second spoiler that I think is so important is that we know that when most people

00:15:40.380 get addicted to substances that exercise is often compared to, so let's say something like,

00:15:46.340 like heroin or cocaine or methamphetamines, that the primary effect of those substances

00:15:54.420 is to destroy your brain's capacity to experience reward from anything other than that drug. It

00:16:01.900 basically, it like kills off your reward system. So you have less dopamine available. Your brain does

00:16:08.020 not want to respond to a sunset or delicious food or, you know, the loving embrace of your child. Your

00:16:13.960 brain is just like, nope, give me the cocaine. Give me the heroin. That's the only thing I'm going 1.00

00:16:18.120 to respond to. And exercise seems to have exactly the opposite effect on your brain. And this is what

00:16:24.840 I found most fascinating when I was trying to figure out, like, is exercise just another addiction?

00:16:30.200 Exercise seems to be the only natural reward that, that makes your reward system more robust.

00:16:38.560 It sensitizes your brain to other pleasures so that everything is more enjoyable.

00:16:43.260 Actually, there was a brand new review paper that was just published about this I was looking at,

00:16:47.420 and I pulled out a quote from it that I plan to use that says that exercise is a natural reward that

00:16:53.740 is unique in its neuroplastic effects on the reward system. Basically, everything else you can get

00:16:59.060 addicted to is going to make you more miserable, less motivated, and susceptible to depression and

00:17:04.660 isolation. And exercise basically rescues you from that. So that's the bottom line.

00:17:12.020 So yeah, so it's, so it's not like cocaine. It's like, it's like the better version of the good

00:17:18.780 version of cocaine, of good drugs. And so going there, I mean, but like, let's be clear about

00:17:23.220 that's because it's what the brain naturally does on its own. And you know, the reason not to get

00:17:27.540 into, I wouldn't want to get into any sort of moral issues around this, just from a brain science

00:17:31.360 point of view, the reason that drugs aren't good for you is because they are so overwhelmingly good

00:17:36.820 when you first take them that your, your brain can't handle it. And you know, that's what leads

00:17:41.620 to these unhealthy, destructive addictions. And I think, you know, the exercise, it's not that it's

00:17:46.860 a good version of cocaine. It's that it's your brain's natural best reward and cocaine and everything

00:17:52.360 else they're, they're in there just sort of mucking around with the brain systems, but exercise is sort

00:17:56.920 of what your brain knows how to reward you for in a way that helps you engage with life. And there's

00:18:01.680 something kind of metaphorical about this. Like you exercise and your brain says, oh, I'm engaged

00:18:06.840 in life. I'm out here doing stuff that matters. That's how your brain understands physical movement.

00:18:12.320 I'm moving forward. I'm making progress. I'm doing things that matter to me and my community. That's

00:18:17.660 just how your brain understands it. Whether you're, you know, walking on a track or you're dancing in

00:18:22.280 your living room with your kid, your brain just, that's how it thinks about the feedback it gets

00:18:26.260 from your heart rate increasing and your muscles moving and all that blood flow. And that is just

00:18:31.460 not what is happening when you take other substances that hijack the reward system.

00:18:35.800 Well, going back to runners, one thing you point out in the book is as you're researching

00:18:38.840 particularly ultra marathoners, a lot of the people who pick up ultra marathons, they used to,

00:18:44.320 they're recovering addicts of some sort, or they're managing some sort of mental illness,

00:18:48.500 you know, anxiety or depression.

00:18:49.960 Yeah. It's almost like proof of concept. So the people who end up doing the most are the ones who

00:18:55.180 most need the medicine of exercise. And I have to say, you know, first of all, people sometimes think

00:19:00.640 when I say exercise is good for depression, I'm saying, don't take medications or don't go to

00:19:04.940 therapy. I'm a psychologist and I'm a scientist. So I support everything that works. And there's

00:19:10.680 great evidence for psychotherapy and great evidence for various medications for different

00:19:14.900 psychological illnesses. So I'm not saying if you're depressed, just go for a hike. However,

00:19:20.920 I do think the ultra endurance community is really interesting because you have so many people in it

00:19:24.840 who, who discovered the sport at a time when their brains were really vulnerable,

00:19:29.740 either because of longstanding susceptibility to things like depression or having, having basically

00:19:35.860 destroyed the reward systems, natural function through years of substance use. And when you are

00:19:42.960 in that kind of a vulnerable state, movement is such powerful medicine that they're the ones who are

00:19:49.020 willing to keep going further and longer. And like, you know, when I first started talking to

00:19:53.900 ultra endurance athletes, I could not understand why you would need to do that much. I mean, of

00:19:58.320 course, you know, I love exercise. I love how it feels in sort of its most ideal form. I'll go to

00:20:03.100 like a fitness conference and work out for hours a day as like a special vacation. But like the idea

00:20:08.560 that you would just keep going and keep going, keep going to test the limits of what your body can

00:20:13.080 endure. That was really a new mindset for me. Like, why do you need to do that much? And what I learned

00:20:19.780 from talking to them and watching what was happening at races is it's not so much that they

00:20:24.140 need to do that much, but that they discover who they are by doing that much. And it's part of it is

00:20:31.160 how it's medicine for the brain. And part of it also is how it really challenges the stories that so

00:20:38.480 many people who've struggled with addiction or depression or anxiety live with those stories about,

00:20:43.860 I can't do this. I can't take another day. I can't go another minute. It's all too much.

00:20:49.300 Or, you know, stories about worthiness and you get literal feedback through movement that you can

00:20:55.680 take one more step, even when it feels like you can't, that you are someone who can do amazingly

00:21:00.980 difficult things and that you will be supported by other people when you do it. And that was the

00:21:06.840 thing that I think finally cracked open for me, why ultra endurance sports are so powerful to the

00:21:13.760 people who choose them. It was watching these races where, you know, people would almost be 0.99

00:21:19.400 crawling. They're so exhausted and other people would lift them up and carry them forward.

00:21:24.660 And that like every athlete, when I asked them, tell me about why you do this, why it matters.

00:21:30.080 Almost everyone I talked to, they start with and end with community. And that, that experience of

00:21:35.520 getting to, in a single race, help other people be helped by other people, be cheered on and be

00:21:41.460 celebrated for your strengths and to get to do that for other people. It is the most beautiful

00:21:46.100 expression of, of getting to be like on the full circle of social support and human connection.

00:21:53.720 Yeah. I thought that was really interesting about the ultra marathoners where they said they,

00:21:56.180 they do it for the part of the big reasons they do for the community. Cause you think of ultra

00:21:59.420 marathon as more of like a loner sport. Cause you're just out there by yourself, right? For,

00:22:03.600 for parts of it. Yeah. For, yeah. For a lot of, yeah. For parts of it for a long time,

00:22:07.660 but the way you describe it, people, there's a, there's definitely a community there where

00:22:11.880 everyone's just supporting one another. There's not, it's not, it's not very competitive. It's

00:22:14.820 just like, it's more about lifting each other up. Yeah. One, one runner told me the difference

00:22:19.240 between a marathon and an ultra marathon is when you're running a marathon, everyone in the race

00:22:24.680 is an impediment to your best time. And it's sort of annoying that there are all these other people

00:22:29.340 on the road or on the trail. And that in an ultra marathon, it's so hard. You are just grateful that

00:22:36.680 other people are in this with you. And like, it helps to think about other people sharing

00:22:41.580 in the struggle and you need them. And so when someone is there and they're willing to cheer

00:22:46.920 you on or help you out, you just, you need people in a different way. I thought that was so

00:22:50.960 interesting. I mean, I'm sure I would feel that way. If I tried to run a marathon, I'd be like,

00:22:54.500 please help, help. But I thought that was such an interesting distinction that that was why somebody

00:22:58.740 would choose an ultra marathon over just competing to be their best in the way that, you know, a lot

00:23:04.260 of people can get hung up on personal bests and, you know, time, timing and records when they first

00:23:08.700 get involved in running. And, uh, it seems to be a different experience in the ultra world.

00:23:13.180 So let's dig in more to this idea of moving within groups because you unpacked a lot of research

00:23:18.420 from sociologists, anthropologists highlighting the fact that human beings love to move in unison with

00:23:26.560 one another. Yes. Okay. So let's talk about that. There's a word for it that I use collective

00:23:33.260 joy. And, um, that's a, I think it's a spinoff of the idea of collective effervescence, which is this

00:23:40.220 concept that Emile Durkheim put forward to describe why human beings get a thrill when they physically

00:23:48.540 move together in celebration and ritual in prayer and physical labor and cooperation. This idea

00:23:56.400 that when we move together, we feel connected to something bigger than ourselves. And there's

00:24:02.080 something it's, it requires our bodies. It's not an idea. It's a physical experience. And so, you

00:24:09.240 know, he observed it just thinking about human nature. And then recently psychologists and

00:24:14.580 neuroscientists have tried to study what's happening in the brain when people feel connected to others

00:24:19.780 because they're doing a wave at a sporting event or they're, you know, step touching together in an

00:24:25.100 aerobics class or, you know, they're walking in stride together in the park. Why do people feel

00:24:31.660 so empowered and so connected? And it's a couple of different things that seem to be going on,

00:24:37.020 but one of them is that moving together seems to be one of the ways that humans socially groom one

00:24:43.700 another. So I don't know if you've seen these like videos of primates where they'll like pick ticks off

00:24:48.540 one another, brush, brush one another's hair. You know, like you've seen that stuff.

00:24:53.500 Yeah. Oh yeah. It's a lot of fun.

00:24:55.100 So that's how, that's how primates often bond and it releases endorphins and those endorphins are like

00:25:01.640 a bonding hormone. So when you experience an endorphin rush at the same time that somebody

00:25:07.000 else is experiencing an endorphin rush and you understand that experience as connected,

00:25:10.860 it's like social glue. It makes you like the other person more, trust them more. Or if you're

00:25:15.880 a primate, like the other primate more, trust them more. You're more willing to help them out later on.

00:25:20.620 And so, so primate researchers call that social grooming. And it seems like humans have a couple

00:25:25.260 of different forms of being able to socially groom in groups. So, you know, you wouldn't

00:25:30.220 necessarily be like in a brushing one another's hair and like a group situation, but you can dance

00:25:36.020 together. You can also sing together. You can laugh together. You can eat together. These are sort of

00:25:42.020 forms of social grooming. They all release endorphins and movement seems particularly powerful that when

00:25:47.380 you move with other people, it leads to an endorphin rush that makes you like them more

00:25:51.320 and trust them more. And the same endorphins start to give you this kind of euphoria that

00:25:55.580 Durkheim was talking about, the sense of, of transcendence. And, you know, when it's extreme,

00:26:01.760 this it's, it really is a thrill that you feel like you've escaped sort of the confines of your

00:26:06.980 small, narrow reality. And you just are connected to an energy and a possibility bigger than yourself,

00:26:12.980 you know, go to a rave and people will talk about that. Go to, you know, a religious experience where

00:26:18.360 people are moving together. People will tell you about that. Yeah. I think everyone's, I've

00:26:21.900 experienced that at a concert, right? Like go to a really good concert and you just like music,

00:26:26.360 oh yeah. It enhances collective joy. Yeah. And that's why I think exercise classes have figured

00:26:30.020 this out. Even movement forms that traditionally were not done to a soundtrack, like flow yoga.

00:26:36.520 Here in the West, music has become a very important part of that because as you mentioned earlier,

00:26:40.600 people are so lonely and lacking a sense of belonging. And as soon as you add a positive

00:26:46.500 soundtrack or you move to the beat of music, along with moving in synchrony with other people,

00:26:53.020 the music has such a powerful amplifying effect. I think it's why I love group fitness because,

00:26:59.200 you know, whether I'm kickboxing or lifting weights or dancing or doing yoga,

00:27:02.280 it's always to a soundtrack that really brings out that joy.

00:27:07.360 We're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.

00:27:10.600 And now back to the show.

00:27:12.540 Well, I want to talk about music because you have a whole chapter to that, but going back to this

00:27:16.260 idea of exercising or moving within groups, you also highlight an insight from a historian,

00:27:22.040 this guy named William McNeil, who's a World War II vet. And he had this idea about troops who train

00:27:28.160 together. They create what he called muscular bonding and that it actually created what they call

00:27:34.060 we agency, W-E agency. So talk about that idea of muscular bonding and we agency.

00:27:39.100 Yeah. So, right. So Durkheim really focused on the joy aspect of it, the euphoria and the ecstasy

00:27:45.080 and the belonging aspect. But what McNeil noticed when he was doing marching drills is that he felt

00:27:52.400 empowered that when he was marching in step with others, that he began to feel, he would describe

00:28:00.920 it as like a swelling, like bigger than a bigger sense of self that felt powerful. And this is one

00:28:09.020 of the other observations about the psychological effects of moving in groups or moving with other

00:28:13.620 people that you don't just like the people you're moving with more, but somehow your sense of self

00:28:18.700 becomes bigger. And so it's one of the reasons why, you know, people will often come together and move

00:28:25.820 together in the name of fighting some threat that feels really big and really overwhelming,

00:28:31.920 whether you are walking for a cure or people come together for a protest march when they're

00:28:37.880 outraged over something that is happening in their society, that people often come together and move

00:28:42.560 together because it creates a sense of power, personal and collective, and also interestingly increases a

00:28:51.300 sense of hope. So people can start out outraged at something or despairing, hopeless, and moving

00:28:57.620 together. Studies show that it increases your belief that the problem can be solved. It increases your

00:29:03.860 belief that other people are basically good and trustworthy rather than that other people can't be

00:29:10.840 trusted, which is, you know, such an important part of our well-being as a society is to believe that

00:29:16.620 other people can be worked with. That moving together creates that mindset that gives you a

00:29:22.160 sense of hope. That's the we agency part. So I think that a lot of people will experience that as a

00:29:27.120 psychological side benefit from, you know, sports drills or, you know, at a place of CrossFit where

00:29:32.460 people are doing difficult things together. A lot of people have that sense that it does remind them

00:29:37.120 of kind of a military training that is designed to give you confidence that you can face anything.

00:29:43.480 So it makes you feel stronger, which makes the group stronger because you have that confidence to

00:29:48.060 act. Yes, that too. It actually does seem to make groups stronger and it also makes them more

00:29:53.580 intimidating to others. One of my favorite studies that I write about, they played these soundtracks

00:29:58.340 of enemies approaching and you had to rate how basically threatening and strong you thought the

00:30:03.100 enemy was based on just hearing them. And if the footsteps were in sync, people were like,

00:30:08.400 wow, like that, I, I think that they are stronger. They are more sort of unified in their mission.

00:30:14.400 And also like even imagine them as being physically larger than people approaching who were not walking

00:30:20.700 in, in step. So this is, it's, it's a real effect that moving together increases your sense of power.

00:30:26.460 It increases other people's perception of your power. And I think this is like, this is a great

00:30:31.060 example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. So, you know, I think a lot, one of the themes that runs through

00:30:36.560 all of my work is that the beliefs that you hold about yourself and the world, they alter your

00:30:42.860 physiology, they alter your brain function, they alter your behaviors, they alter how you present

00:30:47.540 yourself to others in a way that has like really powerful effects on how other people perceive you,

00:30:52.980 what you draw out of situations, how the world treats you. And it's, it's this huge upward spiral or

00:30:58.980 could be a downward spiral. And I think this is one of the, the underestimated benefits of exercise or

00:31:05.220 movement training that it gives you a sense of personal power that seems to also go along with

00:31:13.200 a sense that other people can be trusted or, or worked with so that you go out in the world with

00:31:20.480 a sense of confidence that is also open to positive possibilities. And that's like a kind of a unique,

00:31:26.900 interesting mindset that can lead to advantages in a number of different situations and relationships.

00:31:32.600 And then that's one of the ways that exercise can sort of change who you are.

00:31:36.720 So yeah, this, I mean, I think you see teams like sports teams, they have like little rituals they do

00:31:41.160 before they actually play where they're syncing together, whether it's a warmup or it could even

00:31:45.640 be something like the New Zealand all black where they do the haka before the games. And it's that same 0.96

00:31:51.860 idea. Like it, it builds up that we agency, that muscular bonding.

00:31:56.260 I'm still waiting for someone to culturally appropriate that and turn that into a group fitness class. 0.67

00:32:00.540 Yeah. I'm sure it's going to happen eventually because it seems like such a powerful.

00:32:05.860 Yeah. We did that at my, like when I played football in high school, like we did the haka

00:32:09.320 before because we had, we had this kid who was Maori and he taught us how to do the haka and it

00:32:12.880 was, it was really cool. So let's talk about what's the practical application. Like how can

00:32:17.900 individuals and groups like organizations, whether it's a community organization, a business,

00:32:23.260 a nonprofit, how can they harness this idea of muscular bonding to improve and foster health and

00:32:29.220 bonding within an individual and within the group? Yeah. I mean, if I were to make a sort of a

00:32:35.560 realistic suggestion, so often what people think is, well, we'll do a one-off event. We'll send all

00:32:40.520 our teams, our employees to an obstacle course, or we'll do like a single walk for a cure. But I mean,

00:32:47.960 really this is about building a sense of community and agency over time through repeated movement

00:32:54.720 experiences. So, you know, at a practical level, people need to have an opportunity to move

00:33:01.040 collectively on a regular basis. And so the way you take advantage of this, if you're an individual

00:33:06.520 is you find a movement community. And if you think that a team you lead or a community that you

00:33:11.860 support would benefit from this, it's about finding a way to, to make collective movement experiences

00:33:18.740 available to them on a regular basis, like in the workplace to have group fitness gyms,

00:33:23.740 to find a place in the facility where that can happen. And that is going to have a different

00:33:28.960 effect on the people in that community than putting some treadmills in an empty office where

00:33:34.360 people are not moving collectively. You know, you might think, oh, they're both good for physical

00:33:38.640 health, but they're going to probably have some pretty different psychological consequences for

00:33:43.240 the community. And that's, you know, I also think that part of understanding our motivation for

00:33:50.860 movement is that it can lead you to choose movement experiences that give you what you're really

00:33:57.440 looking for. So, so far, you know, just in this conversation already, we've talked about different

00:34:01.920 positive outcomes from movement, changing how you think about yourself, you know, changing your brain's

00:34:07.720 sensitivity to joy and stress and reward, helping you find that sense of belonging. And I think part

00:34:14.060 of the, one of the takeaways that I want to give people is you have to stop thinking about movement

00:34:18.020 from the way we usually think about it, which is to look at how many steps are on your activity tracker

00:34:22.980 or your calorie burn or what's most convenient because that's easiest. And we're so used to thinking

00:34:29.700 like when you're trying to build a new habit or do something good for your health, you know,

00:34:33.600 it's pretty common advice, start small, start easy, which can be really good advice if you're trying

00:34:38.760 to, you know, shift toward a healthier diet. But when it comes to movement, you really want to go

00:34:44.020 all in and look for the thing that actually brings you meaning or joy or community. And I think that's

00:34:52.420 the other like really practical takeaway for people is to stop thinking so small about movement. And I

00:34:57.520 realized like, yes, we're all busy. It's hard to fit movement in, but you are far more likely to stick

00:35:03.040 with something that is giving you immediate joy or helping you bond with others, right? Or,

00:35:08.460 or empowering you rather than the thing that's easiest to do. And then, you know, is not giving

00:35:15.720 you those other joys. Right. And I think the takeaway from there too far on an individual level

00:35:19.820 is say, if you, if you've had a hard time, you know, making exercise a habit, you've probably done

00:35:23.960 the typical like individual, I'm going to go to the gym by myself and try to, instead of doing that,

00:35:29.560 like join a group. It could be, I mean, there's tons of fitness groups out there. There's pretty

00:35:33.680 much anything for anything you can think of jujitsu. And lots of them are free and many of

00:35:37.820 them are outdoors. I mean, any, it's any movement form you can imagine. There's probably a social

00:35:42.620 version of it and ones that are available, you know, sort of whatever kind of community you want

00:35:47.080 to connect with. I think that is definitely a takeaway. Although, you know, also one of the things

00:35:51.980 that I like to point out to people is if you're somebody who really wants movement as alone time,

00:35:57.040 like you just, you need it for yourself. That feels like what is right for you to trust that

00:36:03.160 instinct. And to know that, you know, as we talked about the, the exercise high, that part of what it

00:36:09.280 does is it creates a neurochemistry that helps you connect with others. And that persists for at least

00:36:14.320 a couple hours afterward. So you could go exercise on your own and have the idea that you're basically

00:36:19.200 priming yourself to return to work or return to your relationships, a version of yourself who's going

00:36:24.080 to be more open to connecting with others. So I want to circle back to this idea of music.

00:36:28.720 You talk about how it can amplify that, that collective effervescence. But it can also,

00:36:33.160 you highlight research that music can actually motivate you. There's something to the idea of

00:36:37.240 a pump up song. So do they have like, have they scientifically figured out like what is the

00:36:42.000 perfect pump up song for exercise? So researchers have identified qualities that make it more likely

00:36:48.220 that a song will bring out the best in you, that will help you work harder, work longer,

00:36:54.660 you know, beat your speed record. So there are certain characteristics of songs, but it's always

00:36:59.800 going to also come down to individual preferences and cultural associations. So, you know, one of my

00:37:05.340 favorite, two of my favorite power songs, one is called Move, Keep Walking by Toby Mac and the other

00:37:11.540 is Warrior by Havana Brown. And what I've realized is that for whatever reason, songs that sing about being

00:37:17.620 a warrior, move, keep walking on, there's this line about being a soldier, keep fighting. So something

00:37:23.020 about that, that brings out in me, a spirit that is willing to work harder, push harder and enjoy

00:37:29.420 the movement more. Like the sweat means something different when I've got someone singing in my ear

00:37:34.120 about being a warrior. Whereas other people that is going to be like, not for them. But if you're

00:37:39.420 looking at what to start with, there seems to be a tempo that is universally supportive of movement.

00:37:45.380 So around the world, 120 to 140 beats per minute seems to be most motivating. Now that's most pop

00:37:54.380 and dance songs. I actually speed up hip hop tracks that I play because most hip hop tracks are a little

00:37:58.640 slower than that. Speed them up a little bit for workouts. And they also tend to have a very clear

00:38:04.160 beat that you can synchronize your stride or your movement with. Power songs also tend to have an

00:38:11.480 energetic or upbeat feel. It doesn't necessarily mean happy, but that there's a sense of drive to it.

00:38:17.720 And also lyrics seem to be super important. So I mentioned, I like lyrics about fighting and

00:38:22.320 keep going and being a warrior. And a lot of the songs that bring out the best in people

00:38:28.180 physically and psychologically, they seem to have lyrics that are either about physical action,

00:38:34.600 like move, run, go, work, or about psychological attributes that you experience through movement,

00:38:43.440 like strength and persistence and courage. And sometimes gratitude, which is one that has come

00:38:49.120 up talking to a number of people. They love music that feels like a celebration and that really

00:38:53.780 supports their ability to keep moving. And then also music that you associate with a positive time in

00:38:59.960 your life or positive memories, or just positive things you enjoy, like the soundtrack from a film.

00:39:05.520 All of those narrative memories can come in and make you feel a certain way, which changes how you

00:39:11.440 interpret what it means that your legs are getting tired or that your heart is pounding.

00:39:18.820 No, I'm the same with the power song. My power song for when I'm doing PRs, when I'm late lifting,

00:39:23.560 my two go-to is, the first one is All These Things That I've Done by The Killers.

00:39:27.580 Where it's got that line, I've got soul, but I'm not as... I fast forward to there and then I wait

00:39:33.860 until like the crescendo where they have like the... And the other one is Airborne. It's like a metal

00:39:39.160 band and they have this... I don't know that. Yeah. Back in the game is the song. Back in the game,

00:39:45.120 kicking ass. It's so cheesy, but I love it. It's fantastic. Let's talk about this because 0.99

00:39:51.280 I do feel like you have to embrace cheese. There's something about a lot of what we're talking

00:39:57.220 about that requires abandoning cynicism. So let's just talk about that. The idea that you can take

00:40:03.720 joy in moving with others, that you can take joy in helping someone out in an ultra marathon,

00:40:09.720 that you can let yourself be uplifted by lyrics in a song. I think there is a tendency for some

00:40:16.300 people to think, oh, that's a little bit silly or it's a little bit cheesy. But I am here to say

00:40:20.820 that is like the best part of human nature. We have the ability to be moved by these things

00:40:27.280 because they help us survive as a species that's part of our human nature. And so anyone who feels

00:40:33.060 a little silly about being moved by a song, I will see people move to tears by music in combination

00:40:40.380 with their own experience of their physical strength while working out, that you should embrace it,

00:40:46.880 take joy in it. This is part of what literally gives us a will to live is our capacity to experience

00:40:52.660 what can appear to be cheesy joys. I also listen to Taylor Swift sometimes when I power. I don't

00:40:59.800 feel any shame. That is a perfect example. I don't feel any shame. Shake It Off is the perfect song to

00:41:04.580 dance to with children, by the way. Talk about cheesy joys is dance parties with children. I've yet to

00:41:10.000 meet a four or five-year-old who will not immediately explode with joy when Shake It Off comes on.

00:41:16.300 It's a good one. It's a good one. It's catchy. All right. So let's start by this idea that you've

00:41:20.020 kind of, you've been hitting on about how movement can give us a sense of self. It's like it's the

00:41:25.240 thing that makes us human. It can foster confidence in our capability in the world. How have you seen

00:41:31.180 that in the research you've done of movement fostering that confidence in individuals?

00:41:37.180 Yeah. Well, so there's the research and then there's the stories I've heard. And then there are the

00:41:41.300 things that I see in my own experience teaching classes. I mean, I remember, so I've been teaching

00:41:46.500 for two decades. I remember early on as a yoga teacher, a woman who had been wanting to do a

00:41:51.820 headstand for a long time. I think she was maybe about 50 years old, never gone upside down, never

00:41:59.280 thought she could do it. And she also was a breast cancer survivor. And I remember the first time I

00:42:04.420 helped her hold a headstand and she used the wall for support. And nobody would have taken a picture

00:42:10.180 of it and said, this is the world's most perfect headstand. She held it and she used her core

00:42:15.800 strength to get into it. And when she came down, she could not stop laughing. And it was this like

00:42:21.620 uncontrollable laughter of shock, shock and positive surprise. And she just kept saying, I can't believe

00:42:28.400 I just did that. And part of it for her was, you know, the sense of after going through cancer

00:42:35.720 treatment, a sense of, you know, what's still possible for me and the way that that type of

00:42:41.260 health crisis can really undermine your sense of a positive vision for your future. And being able to

00:42:47.480 do a headstand was like a literal visceral sense of her own strength. The shock of being able to do

00:42:52.600 something she never thought she could do. And that this all happened after her cancer diagnosis and

00:42:57.680 treatment was really a meaningful moment. And I've seen things like that happen all the time,

00:43:03.520 that people do things that surprise them. They have these movement milestones and it changes what

00:43:09.520 they think that they're capable of. Now at the science level, what I think is so interesting is

00:43:15.540 that part of how we know who we are literally is proprioception. That's the feedback that your

00:43:22.820 muscles give you, that your tendons and your joints give you about what your body is doing.

00:43:28.500 And if you look at case studies of people who have lost the ability to feel their own arms,

00:43:34.000 you know, to feel their muscles, to feel their body in motion, they don't just tell you,

00:43:38.860 I don't feel my arms. They will say things like, I have no idea who I am. I'm like a ghost.

00:43:46.840 It's their sense of being a person is so hard to grasp onto because so much of our sense of self

00:43:56.100 is delivered to us from our muscles, from the neuromuscular feedback of our bodies.

00:44:03.060 And so when you move in ways that express clear qualities, you move with power, you move with

00:44:09.960 grace, you move with freedom, speed, or beauty, or sensuality, your brain gets the message,

00:44:18.020 this is who I am. Your body gets the message, not just that my legs are powerful, but your brain

00:44:24.000 basically takes a shortcut to, I am powerful. And I think the science is really fascinating about

00:44:29.920 that because that's another way to choose your workout is to ask yourself like what movements

00:44:34.740 really reflect who you want to be in the world, the qualities that you want to express or cultivate.

00:44:41.600 And is there a movement form where you're going to literally sense that in yourself,

00:44:45.000 you'll be able to train that quality. I would say that for me, that's one of the reasons why I like

00:44:50.100 kickboxing. I remember some of the early kickboxing experiences. I was like, this is really aggressive.

00:44:55.120 I was almost scared. I'm throwing this downward street punch. I was like, who am I? I kind of like

00:45:01.760 this. And it surprised me. And I found through kickboxing a way to literally sense my own courage.

00:45:07.900 And I will often do a kickboxing workout before I have to do something that I'm feeling really anxious

00:45:13.820 about or that I can't control. So that's just, that's one example of how we can use the science

00:45:19.140 to, to get more out of our workouts. And going to the idea of, of movement,

00:45:24.680 kind of giving you a sense of self. I mean, one of the, you talk, I think you talk about this in

00:45:28.520 the book about Parkinson's patients. One of the, not only do they have issues with movement, right?

00:45:33.140 But that affects them psychologically. A lot of Parkinson's patients have, you know,

00:45:37.060 have to deal with depression as well. But what the research shows is that one of the best

00:45:42.200 things you can do as a Parkinson, if you have Parkinson's is to move, to exercise. We actually

00:45:46.320 had a guy on the podcast a while back ago, he runs a boxing gym and he specializes with

00:45:51.340 Parkinson's patients. They do like boxing workouts. Yes. I actually, so in the book,

00:45:56.140 I visited a class for a dance class for people with Parkinson's disease, but also a gym where people,

00:46:01.940 it's a boxing gym and a strength training gym for people with neurological disorders,

00:46:05.860 as well as physical disabilities. Both of them were amazing experiences because everyone is,

00:46:11.740 you know, full out experiencing the joy and the benefits of movement and community,

00:46:15.640 despite some pretty serious physical and neurological obstacles. And the thing about

00:46:21.220 Parkinson's that is so interesting is we think about walking as like the first thing that becomes

00:46:27.040 challenging, or, you know, we become aware of symptoms like tremors when you're reaching for

00:46:30.820 something. And we know that reaching, walking, you know, running, dancing, all of that,

00:46:36.120 that's a movement. We don't often appreciate how much communication is also a movement,

00:46:41.980 whether you're making hand gestures or you're hugging someone, or even making eye contact with

00:46:47.740 people, the expressions on your face, smiling, that is all movement. And one of the things that

00:46:55.120 becomes so, so overwhelmingly isolating about Parkinson's as it progresses is it's not just

00:47:01.640 something like walking that becomes difficult, but it's a motion expression. And then as a

00:47:06.400 consequence, social connection. And what I loved seeing at the dance class for people with Parkinson's

00:47:11.580 disease is that by the time they were moving and the music was so supportive of that, you know, music

00:47:17.520 literally activating the motor system of the brain, increasing dopamine to, to basically reverse some

00:47:24.400 of the symptoms of a disease that is characterized by low dopamine. Halfway through the class,

00:47:29.480 how much more they were able to connect with one another smiles, we were shaking hands. We were

00:47:36.040 interacting with one another in a, in a way that was really meaningful and joyful. And I think that

00:47:41.640 that is another example of how much movement is connected to that part of our human nature.

00:47:47.520 And, you know, we started out talking about how the runner's high can help you connect with others by

00:47:51.940 changing your brain chemistry. And this was just the Parkinson's class was just a perfect example of that,

00:47:56.820 how we also need to be able to move in order to connect with one another. And every form of

00:48:01.960 exercise we do is basically enhancing that capacity.

00:48:05.220 So we've talked about how exercising can make us feel good. Exercising makes us want to bond bond,

00:48:11.260 you know, exercising with groups kind of promotes that idea of wanting to move more music can amplify

00:48:16.400 that, but something that can supercharge all these benefits of movement is moving outside in the

00:48:22.540 great outdoors and nature. What's going on in our brains when we exercise outside?

00:48:26.500 This is a really new field of research. So I'll tell you that I'm being sort of speculative about

00:48:31.820 this, but I like doing that sometimes. It's like, like, where's the science pointing us? And we'll find

00:48:37.240 out if we can confirm this. So when people exercise outdoors, they often report feeling different in a way

00:48:44.640 that transcends the feel better effect. And they describe things that when you actually like lay it out side by

00:48:49.800 side, it looks a lot like what people report when they are taking entheogens, which is the class of

00:48:54.960 drugs that include LSD and ayahuasca and mushrooms, you know, drugs that are meant to induce a spiritual

00:49:01.720 experience to change your consciousness in, in ways that are often very positive. And people will talk

00:49:08.300 about, you know, feeling at one with the universe, feeling a sense of love and connection, a sense of

00:49:14.440 themselves sort of dissolving into something. You can't even describe it in words. It's sort of like

00:49:20.980 words fail. And one of the ideas about why people experience that kind of self-transcendence and unity

00:49:28.760 sensation in nature is that when we're out in nature, our default state of the brain changes. So we know that

00:49:37.760 most people's brains, when you leave them to their own devices and don't give them something else to focus

00:49:42.860 on the brain defaults to rumination, worrying, judging other people, judging ourselves, planning.

00:49:52.840 It's, it's a, I'm sure everyone listening to this understands what that state is. If you have

00:49:57.420 trouble falling asleep at night, you know what it is. That's the content of your insomnia. It's one of

00:50:01.920 the reasons why we're so attracted to our phones, because sometimes we just, if we leave our mind to

00:50:07.280 our own devices, it just goes to places we don't want to go. So we were looking for some sort of

00:50:11.640 positive distraction. So that's the default state. Most human brains go there by default when there's

00:50:17.920 nothing else to focus on. And it seems like that nature shuts that down. That when people are out in

00:50:24.340 nature, the parts of the default state that are focused inward on worry, rumination, time travel, like

00:50:31.800 thinking about the past or the future, that those systems, the brain, they basically, they quiet down.

00:50:37.120 And instead the brain becomes open to the present moment, including senses, what you see, what you

00:50:43.640 smell, what you hear, what you feel in your body. And it's that kind of relief from the default state

00:50:50.620 and that inner chatter that feels transcendent to people. That is a spiritual experience. And funnily

00:50:57.340 enough, if you look at some of the new brain science on what entheogens do to the brain, something like

00:51:02.700 LSD, it is disrupting the default state, sometimes in much more chaotic ways than being in nature.

00:51:10.720 Nature seems to quiet it down. Drugs like LSD and ayahuasca seem to go in and like create really new

00:51:17.160 and interesting default states, things that are different from our usual default. But all of those

00:51:22.220 drugs, they basically are working on this, it's like shutting down that same inner narrative. So I think

00:51:28.580 that's why a lot of people who love exercising in nature, they talk about it as being like a therapy

00:51:34.040 for their minds, that it is one of the places where they can get relief if their minds are not

00:51:39.800 always an easy place to be. And in a lot of people in our modern world, like they're suffering a nature

00:51:45.600 deficit. So they're always in that default mode. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's, so one of the things that

00:51:52.560 I speculate about in the book, and this is to be clear, this is my idea. So if it's wrong, I'll take

00:51:57.680 full responsibility for it because I'm somebody who has studied meditation for decades and has

00:52:03.960 researched it. And one of the things that I've always struggled with is the meditation masters

00:52:08.640 in every tradition, they will tell you that the default state of the human mind is basically this,

00:52:13.280 this transcendent happiness, this ease, this peace of mind. And they will tell you in all these

00:52:19.580 traditions, that is the default state. And that really flies against the neuroscience research

00:52:24.280 that if you actually look at what the human brain does, by default, the natural state seems to be

00:52:29.300 something much closer to mental suffering. And what I began to think about is, you know, maybe we have

00:52:35.720 two default states and we have the default state that is pulled out of us by the environment we live

00:52:42.140 in, which is indoors, often in these sort of social situations that encourage us to think about

00:52:48.280 ourselves and think about other people, you know, in environments and relationships and roles that

00:52:52.920 are encouraging us to time travel, to try to, you know, fix the future or reflect on the past. But maybe

00:52:59.260 there's another default state that is associated with that human, early human need to go out into nature

00:53:05.860 and find things, to find food, to find safety. And maybe the human brain has this other default state

00:53:13.500 that basically is stop thinking about all that other stuff, pay attention to the present moment,

00:53:19.560 find out what's possible in this moment. And when people are in that state, they tend to feel really

00:53:25.360 good. They tend to have that kind of peace of mind that meditation masters tell us is the default state.

00:53:32.060 So, you know, I'm thinking maybe that one of the reasons why so many people are struggling

00:53:35.580 with mental health issues is that we do have this nature deficit. And there's some research that has

00:53:41.440 even put a number on it, like a certain percentage of cases of depression worldwide could be prevented

00:53:46.820 if people spent more time in a natural environment where they feel safe and they feel inspired. That's

00:53:53.060 an important one. Like if you threw me into the woods, I think I would just probably be scared,

00:53:57.840 but you put me in like a beautiful park or like, you know, a waterfront walk place where I can see

00:54:03.400 buildings and other people and I'll have that kind of nature effect.

00:54:07.360 Right. So the takeaway there, go out and take a hike in the woods. Well, maybe not for you.

00:54:11.920 Yeah. It depends.

00:54:13.260 Right. Depends.

00:54:13.720 You got to think about where you feel safe and where you feel inspired.

00:54:16.640 But then also take someone with you, like a friend.

00:54:18.940 Maybe.

00:54:19.540 Maybe.

00:54:19.720 Well, no, but it's so interesting, right? Because we've talked so much about how important other

00:54:22.820 people are, but I would say most people who love exercising in nature, they are the ones who tell

00:54:27.520 me they want to do it by themselves too. And again, I think it's that you have to trust,

00:54:31.900 you have to go with your direct experience. Movement is personalized medicine that you kind

00:54:37.640 of, it's a do-it-yourself personalized medicine. And there is a form of exercise or movement that

00:54:43.740 can heal almost any sort of human suffering, but it's not all of it for all of us. Like you and I

00:54:49.700 maybe we'll never run, but we have our thing.

00:54:52.380 We got our thing. So like, what's something someone can do, who's listening to this episode

00:54:55.480 right now can do today to start enjoying the joy of movement?

00:55:00.300 Well, so one thing that you can do without actually moving yet is to think about the forms

00:55:05.160 of movement that inspire you. So I often ask people, if you were to be on YouTube or something,

00:55:11.500 is there a video you would pause and watch? You're scrolling through Instagram. Is there something

00:55:16.000 you would pause and watch and think that's really cool? That's really interesting. I'm really impressed.

00:55:21.900 Something like that. And to think about what the version of that movement is that would work for

00:55:26.320 your body and your life right now. I think we don't often use inspiration as our first motivation,

00:55:33.460 but if there's a form of movement that inspires you, and maybe even there's a voice in your head

00:55:37.420 that says, I could never do that. I could never do power lifting, or I could never run a marathon,

00:55:43.360 or I'd be too embarrassed to go to that dance class. Although I will watch this video of these people

00:55:48.540 doing this amazing choreography, that's like the perfect movement form to start with.

00:55:53.480 So that's what the first encouragement is to think about inspiration as your motivation,

00:55:57.920 rather than burning calories or convenience. And the other thing is to think about a movement you

00:56:05.320 can do today that feels connected to other things that you enjoy in life and want to experience more

00:56:11.400 joy with. And you can do a very small dose of this. So you and I have talked about a number of

00:56:15.600 things today that bring out the human capacity for joy, connecting with other people, being in nature,

00:56:23.540 listening to music. Those are some very simple ones. So what if you think about the one that brings out

00:56:28.800 the most joy in you, and then just do it. So go for a walk with your dog. If your dog brings out the joy in

00:56:35.700 you, have a dance party with your roommate or your kid or your spouse. If connecting with other people

00:56:41.820 brings out the joy in you or music brings out the joy in you, go find a place in nature where you can

00:56:46.720 do some stretches or take a walk. And that's one of the best things about movement is when you abandon

00:56:52.740 the idea that it has to look like a specific exercise formula that has been carefully crafted

00:56:58.840 to give you the best muscle outcome or whatever. When you start to think movement is about life and

00:57:05.360 movement can connect you to joys in a really deep way, it will lead you to forms of movement that

00:57:12.280 really take advantage of how exercise changes our brain chemistry and expands our capacity for

00:57:17.720 connection and joy and all of that. Well, Kelly, is there someplace people can go learn more about

00:57:22.020 the book and your work? Well, the book is The Joy of Movement. And yeah, I'm just, I'm out there

00:57:27.760 encouraging people on social media under my own name, where you can find me at kellymcgonigle.com.

00:57:32.560 All right. Well, Kelly McGonigle, thanks so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:57:35.420 Thank you.

00:57:36.300 My guest today was Kelly McGonigle. She's the author of the book, The Joy of Movement. It's

00:57:40.200 available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find out more information about her work

00:57:43.940 at our website, kellymcgonigle.com. Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash kellymcgonigle.

00:57:49.300 You can find links to resources, re-delve deeper into this topic.

00:57:59.040 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast. Check out our website

00:58:02.420 at artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives. There's over 500 episodes

00:58:06.300 there, as well as thousands of articles we've written over the years about exercise, movement,

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The Art of Manliness - March 02, 2020

#589： How Exercise Helps Us Find Happiness, Hope, Connection, and Courage

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