#607： The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People
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Summary
It's been 30 years since the landmark self-management book, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, was published. It's been called the most influential business book of the 20th century, and the principles that espouses have become embedded in our culture. Today, it's the 30th anniversary edition of the book is out with new insights from the late Stephen Covey's children, and it's my pleasure to speak to one of them, Stephen R. Covey.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. It's been
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30 years since the landmark self-management book, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective
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People was published. It's been called the most influential business book of the 20th
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century and the principles that espouses have become embedded in our culture. Seven Habits
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had a big impact on me personally. This is the first time I read over 20 years ago as
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a high schooler. The 30th anniversary edition of the book is out with new insights from
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the late Stephen Covey's children. Today, it's my pleasure to speak to one of them,
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Stephen M. R. Covey. Stephen had a big role in the launch of the first edition of The
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Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, as well as his father's company, Franklin Covey,
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and is himself the author of the book, The Speed of Trust. Today on the show, Stephen
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and I discuss why The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People has had such staying power
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and why it's just as relevant today as it was 30 years ago. We then walk through The
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Seven Habits, exploring how each has lived individually, as well as work together to
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create a flourishing life. If you've never read The Seven Habits, this episode is a great
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introduction, and if you've read it before, this is a succinct refresher on a set of principles
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worth building your life around. After the show's over, check out your show notes at
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awim.is slash sevenhabits. Stephen joins you now via clearcast.io.
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Hey, Brett. It's great to be with you. Excited to be here.
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So you are one of the sons of the late Stephen Covey and the author of The Seven Habits of
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Highly Effective People, other books. The Seven Habits is coming out with a 30th anniversary
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edition this May. And so I brought you on the show. We can talk about that. But before we do,
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let's talk about your involvement with your dad's work in the organization, Franklin Covey.
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Yes, absolutely. In fact, I've been involved with the Franklin Covey organization and its predecessors.
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It was called at the time Covey Leadership Center. And, you know, really almost from the very
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beginning, it was clear back in 1989 when I joined the company out of Harvard Business School and I
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was deciding kind of what to do. I had an opportunity on Wall Street, investment banking. I had an
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opportunity in real estate development. And then I had an opportunity to join up with my father,
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who had a small, you know, consulting leadership development company. And I, but I knew my father
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had a great book coming out called The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. It had yet to come out.
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It was about to. And so kind of against the advice of everyone around me that said, you know,
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go, go for Wall Street or go for this real estate development. You know, those are reputable jobs.
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And I went with my father's company at the time, the Covey Leadership Center, now Franklin Covey,
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because I really knew what was in store for people, that The Seven Habits of Highly Effective
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People was about to come out as a book and that this book could have a profound impact on people.
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And so I joined right at the very outset and helped, you know, helped my father build the
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organization and become really one of the largest leadership development companies in the world
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and using Seven Habits as the foundation for doing that.
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So let's, so as I said, there's a 30th anniversary edition of The Seven Habits coming out this May.
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I mean, why do you think this book has had such staying power after 30 years? I mean,
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it's sold 40 million copies, even today on Amazon. It's usually on the top 10 on the Amazon charts,
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which is like the top 10 books sold. What's going on? What do you think is,
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why does this book resonate with so many people for so long?
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It's pretty remarkable, isn't it? After all this time, it's still up there in the top 10 and,
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or, you know, in the top sellers, whether top 10 or whatever. But I think it's because The Seven
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Habits is really built on enduring and timeless principles that apply everywhere and in all
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circumstances and really in all kinds of different times and places. And so it's based upon principles,
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not practices. It takes an inside out approach, meaning that we all look in the mirror and we
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start with ourselves versus kind of an outside in approach where you look at your circumstances or
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everybody else and kind of blame. This is inside out. And you take responsibility based upon principles.
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And, and so, and then also, I think my father had a real gift of making this accessible to people,
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practical, tangible, you know, be proactive as one of the habits and so practical and tangible,
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begin with the end in mind and, and so basic and so foundational. And yet suddenly he's making it become
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more accessible. And that was really a gift. My father had is to, to take ideas that kind of had
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always been out there. I mean, these are not his ideas per se, you know, he doesn't claim
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to own the principles. No one owns the principles are universal. They belong to everyone. But my father
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had a gift of making the principles accessible and actionable and practical. So people could
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implement them in their lives, you know, begin with the end in mind is habit too. And, you know,
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and so he taught people how to create a personal mission statement, just like you would, you know,
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a company might have an organizational mission statement. What about a personal mission statement?
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What about a family mission statement as a way of beginning with the end in mind and, you know,
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and, and really prioritizing and, and, and, and identifying the most important roles in your life and the,
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and then the goals that follow them in those and, and really implementing this. And,
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and each of the seven habits was based upon a principle, but then made accessible through,
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you know, through language and through applications that made this just so useful to people. So I think
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that's the biggest reason is that it's based upon principles that are timeless. It's an inside out
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approach, meaning that everyone can start with themselves and work on this. And it's accessible,
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it's actionable, it's practical and useful for people. And because of that, I say, rather than being 30
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years old, I think the seven habits is 30 years young and going.
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Yeah. And that's one of the things when I first read the seven habits a long time ago, that focus on
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principles was what stood out to me. And then your, your father talked about this. He did his whole,
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in the beginning of the book, he does like a whole review of the self-improvement literature going all
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the way back to the 19th century and, and then into the 20th century. And he said in the 20th century,
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we had this, there's this shift in the 19th century, a lot of the self-improvement work
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was very character based. Like it was all about building up your character, but then the 20th
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century, there was a shift to what he calls a personality ethic. Can you talk about the
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difference between those two? Absolutely. Yeah. This is kind of what gave root
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to the seven habits was this 200 year study of all the success literature, like you've mentioned,
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Brett. And, and he found, you know, in the first 150 years of this study, the focus was on character
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and principles on things like, you know, fairness and integrity and courage and, you know, interdependence
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and, and trust and things like this. But then the last 50 years, he began to notice a
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discernible shift towards more things like techniques and, and, you know, and, and, and,
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and skills based things, not necessarily bad, but kind of a shift away from character and more
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towards personality. And it's not that personality is bad. It's just that we don't want to separate
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the personality from the character roots. It's almost like an iceberg. And, you know, the personality
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is the tip of the iceberg. It matters enormously, but the greater mass of the iceberg is the character.
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And so the very first subtitle of the seven habits, you know, the book came out, the seven habits of
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highly effective people. The first subtitle before the publishers had us change it to make it, you know,
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more memorable. The first subtitle was restoring the character ethic. And it was exactly what you just
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described, right? It was trying to say, let's get back to the foundational basics, the principles that
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are so vital to people everywhere. And, and, uh, you know, a fairness of integrity, of balance, of courage,
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of, of, uh, of unity, these, these kinds of principles. And, and as opposed to kind of just
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focusing on techniques and practices and things that help you get ahead, which again, aren't necessarily
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bad, but if they're severed from their character roots could lose the foundation that is so critical
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for it. And that was the idea that kind of spawned the seven habits because each of these seven habits
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are fundamentally based upon principles that are enduring as opposed to the fads, the techniques,
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the practices that kind of would ebb and flow with changing times. And again, that's why seven habits
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are so enduring because it's based upon these principles.
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So let's dig into the seven habits. So people can, for who haven't read the book and get a taste of
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what they'll find in the book, but also for people who have, it'd be a good refresher. So the first
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three habits are about winning private victories, about starting with going from the inside out,
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like, as you said, so the first habit is being proactive. What does that look like? What does that
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mean? Yes. Yeah. So, um, let me just give, I'll just take what you just mentioned, Brett, and go a
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little deeper on the context. The first three habits kind of move a person from dependence
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to independence. And as you mentioned, my father called that the private victory. You go from
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dependence to independence. The second three habits, habits four, five, and six, move a person from
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independence to interdependence. So I'm independent, but now I try to say, can I work with others? So
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he calls that the public victory. And the last habit kind of sustains and renews all of them.
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So the foundational habit, as you mentioned, is habit one, be proactive. And the idea here is that
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each of us, we are responsible for our lives. And, you know, we can take responsibility for our lives,
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for our choices. We're, we're, we're influenced by circumstances. We're influenced by environment.
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We're influenced by, you know, genetics. There's no question, but they, while they influence us,
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they don't determine us. The idea is that we can choose. We have the power. We're agents. We can
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choose our response to circumstances. We don't just have to be impulsive in between what happens to us
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and our response to it is a space. And in that space, we can choose our response based upon our values,
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as opposed to just based upon circumstances. And so when we choose based upon our values,
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that's being proactive. When we just respond out of impulse, that's being reactive. And it's saying,
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we can be proactive in our life. We can take responsibility for our life and we can be,
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you know, we can be resourceful and take initiative and make things happen.
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And so this is really trying to give people a sense of personal responsibility and, and,
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and opportunity to say, I'm in charge of my life. I can create the life I want. Yes,
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I'm influenced by all these things around me, but it's in my, my circle of influence to use a
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metaphor he describes to take responsibility. And, and that's the idea. And the whole idea of
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the circle of influence is this, is that there's a lot of things that happen to us in life that we
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can't control, you know, the weather, what's happening right now, you know, in the, with this
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global pandemic, you know, we can't control a lot of these things, but there are things that within
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the things that are influencing us, our circle of concern, if you will, all these things around us
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that concern us, there's us inside that circle of concern is a smaller circle of influence.
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These are things that we can do something about. I can't do anything about the weather,
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but I can do something about my attitude towards the weather, how I feel about it,
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how I respond to it. I can carry my own, own weather with me. And when I focus on my circle of
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influence, instead of my circle of concern, I'm being proactive. And what will happen,
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is if I continue to focus on my circle of influence, my circle of influence will grow
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and expand and enlarge. And, but if I focus on my circle of concern of, you know, my boss's
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weaknesses, you know, my spouse's faults, my kids, and, you know, and, and focus on all their,
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you know, everything outside of me, what happens is my circle of influence tends to wither and
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diminish and grow smaller while my circle of concern expands. And so by being proactive,
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focusing on what we can influence, then we grow that proactivity, we grow that influence
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and, and we begin to ripple out. And that's, that's the idea. So, so, you know, be proactive
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means you are responsible. You are in charge of yourself, of your life. Yes, we're influenced
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by everything around us, but that, well, it influences us. It does not determine us. We are proactive.
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We're agents to choose for ourself. And that's the foundational habit, because out of that comes
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all the other habits, because once I'm responsible, now I can choose in a new and different way for
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everything else I'm doing in my life. So you mentioned that this is a principle,
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it's timeless, it's endearing, but within these principles, you're, as you're, as you said earlier,
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your father provided very practical, actionable steps people can take to embody that principle.
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So what's something that someone can start doing today to live this habit of being proactive?
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Here's something you can do right away. Notice your language. And, you know, anytime you're saying
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things like, I have to, or, you know, I'm required to do this, you know, I have to do this, I have to do
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that. You're, you're being, you're using reactive language. We don't have to do anything.
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We can choose to respond. Now we might realize that, Hey, if I don't do something like, like,
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uh, my daughter's in school right now in online school. And she said, Oh, I hate this. I have to,
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you know, be on these, uh, zoom meetings every day and, and, and do all these things. I have to do it.
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And I say, you don't have to go. Yeah, I do. I have to, because if I don't, I'll fail. I said, well,
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do you have to, or do you choose to? She goes, well, if I don't participate, I'll fail. Okay,
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great. So you choose to be on the call because you want to pass the class and you don't have to,
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you could choose not to, and then you would, you'd reap the natural consequences, which is you'd fail
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the class, but it's still a choice. You choose to be responsible. You choose to pass the class,
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but you don't, you don't have to do anything. So just that very simple thing. I have to,
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here's another one. You know, he makes, he makes me so mad when someone bothers you. He makes me so
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mad as if you have nothing to do about it. Is that a choice that you can choose to take offense
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that you could choose to become angered? You know, we don't have to do anything. So watch our language
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language and use language of, I choose to, instead of, I have to, and, and take responsibility.
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And it's something you can do immediately. And what we all realize is we're all pretty reactive,
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myself included. And, and we, you know, we, we're not perfect on this. It's very easy to fall into
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reactive stances and you see it in your language and the most basic things. And, but I just learned
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from my dad, you know, you never have to do anything you choose to you're responsible. And that
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very simple thing. You might think that's a simple thing, but you start to become self-aware.
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I am responsible. I am a product of my choices, not my circumstances. And I can choose to do
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everything and language is one little thing. So I say to each of us, watch our language and choose
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to, instead of have to, and you'll be amazed at kind of the self-awareness that gives you.
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The second thing I give is what I just mentioned earlier, focus on your circle of influence,
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not your circle of concern. And so when tough things happen, maybe at work and, and rather than
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focusing on all the problems with, you know, let's say your boss and how you can't say you can't trust
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your boss. Well, what if you focus on your circle of influence, which is your self-trust, your
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credibility, your performance, such that you gain more clout, more influence, because you're doing
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so well that that compensates sometimes for even, you know, lesser relationship with another person.
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You know, if you focus on your circle of influence, that circle of influence will expand and, and you'll
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become more effective, more powerful versus kind of focusing on the weaknesses of other people,
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focusing on things you can't control so that, you know, again, you become so aware and, and, and habit
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one is so much about self-awareness so that we can choose our response based upon our values.
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All right. So the next habit is begin with the end in minds. What does that look like?
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This is the habit of vision. If habit one is saying, you know, you are responsible, you are a programmer.
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Habit two is saying, so write the program. What do you want? What's your vision for yourself? What's
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the vision for your life? Who are you? What are you all about? What are you trying to accomplish?
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What is your end in mind for yourself? And so the idea of, of, you know, one way of thinking about
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this is, is to, you know, create a personal mission statement and maybe a way of doing a personal
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mission statement is to, you know, think it, you know, an 80th birthday party where you're turning 80
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and you've got all your friends and your family and maybe neighbors and maybe work associates there
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and you have people that are going to stand up and give a tribute, maybe one from your family
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and one from your neighborhood or community, one from your work. Maybe if you belong to a church,
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one from your church or what have you, what would you like them to say, each of them, about you
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as they celebrate you and your life on your 80th birthday? What would you hope that they would say
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about you, you know, the family member? What would you hope that they would say about you from work?
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What would they hope that they would say about you in your community or your church or
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in your, you know, whatever is important to you? And in a sense, that's kind of beginning
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with the end in mind for yourself, for your life. And it helps you think about what matters to you.
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What, what do you value? What's important? What is your mission? And so you can come up with,
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you might put it in writing, in words, a personal mission statement. That's just one application of
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how you would begin with the end in mind. You know, you could create a personal mission statement,
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but there's a whole lot of other ways that you can say, you know, what am I trying to achieve
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and accomplish? Anytime you take on a project, what's the end in mind? You know, you start a
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puzzle. Think of the puzzle, you know, let's say a thousand piece puzzle and you dump it out and
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you've got a thousand pieces. In a sense, begin with the end in mind is seeing the picture on the
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box of the puzzle of what you're trying to put together, that picture. And how important in
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putting together a puzzle is the picture. It's really important because it gives you a sense of
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what you're trying to do, what you're trying to do with these puzzle pieces. You're trying to
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create this picture. So in a sense, begin with the end in mind is the picture of the puzzle that
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you're assembling of your life, of who you are, what you're about, what you're trying to do.
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And so it's really powerful because it's the habit of vision. Hey, Brett, I'll tell you an
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interesting, fun story on this when I was just a young kid. Sure. Because we grew up in our home
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with the, you know, my father first taught the seven habits to us as kids and there's nine of
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us kids. So, you know, we had a big family and, and I remember one time I was, I can't remember,
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maybe 12 or 13 years old. And, and my dad took the whole family. I think maybe there were six or
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seven of us at the time up to a big building. And, and we went to the top of the building,
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got on the very top of the roof because we were with an architect, got on the roof of the building.
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And then we looked down right next door to the building we were standing on. There was a big
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hole in the ground and another building was about to be built in that hole. They were doing the
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foundation work and the art. My, my dad had an architect with us and he was a, he pulled out
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these blueprints, you know, these blue pieces of paper, these blueprints. And he said, this next
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building right now, you only see a hole, but that building has already been built mentally.
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And, and, and he pulled out the blueprints and he said, look, here's the design of the building.
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Here's the foundation. Here's what it's going to look like. And he says, I've already built this
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building mentally. Now we're going to build it physically, but begin with the end in mind in a
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sense is the mental creation, which precedes the physical creation. And, and, you know, and I just
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remember that. So it's indelibly impressed in my mind as a young teenager that begin with the end
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in mind and seeing the, you know, the, the hole in the ground and seeing blueprints from this
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architect saying, I've already built this building mentally and on paper. Now we're going to do it
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physically. Then we went back about a year and a half later or whenever it was done. And we went back
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on that and stood on the same building and looked out and there was another building right next to it
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that we had seen the blueprint of a year and a half ago. And now there it is standing up.
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And I just remember saying, I get it. Begin with the end in mind, you know, the mental creation
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precedes the physical one. So we need to do the same for our lives as decide who we are, what we're
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about, and then try to, you know, carry that out. We're going to take a quick break for your words
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from our sponsors. And now back to the show. All right. So the, the final of the private victory
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habits, the third habit is put first things first. What does that look like?
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That's the carrying out of your plan of your end in mind. And so in a sense, in habit
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to begin with the end in mind, you are identifying what are the first things in my life?
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What are the most important things? You know, what are the values? What are the things I care about?
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My priorities and habit three put first things first is saying, okay, I've identified my priorities.
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Now live by them. If they're the first things, then put them first, not second or last, you know,
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put first things first, carry out your plan, you know? And so you manage your time based upon not
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just kind of what's urgent and what's in front of you, but what's important and what matters to you.
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Now, when something is both important and urgent, you're going to do that for sure, because you have
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to, it's, it's, it's right upon you. It's pressing, it's urgent, and it's important. But what we want
00:23:51.900
to avoid doing kind of in, as we manage our time is avoid getting distracted by the things that are
00:23:58.700
urgent, that are pressing, you know, but aren't necessarily important to us. And so that could be,
00:24:04.060
you know, excessive, you know, just binge watching excessively, you know, a little binge watching
00:24:09.980
might be good for you because it might relax you, but you know, you could go too far where it becomes
00:24:16.300
excessive and, and, and, you know, or a pressing, you know, phone call and, and all the emails that
00:24:23.620
just come in and we can get distracted in our work and find ourselves just buried all day long
00:24:28.080
doing emails or spending time on social media back and forth. You can get lost in this and that's kind
00:24:34.040
of fun. And it might be kind of pressing and proximate and urgent, but, but oftentimes it's
00:24:40.740
not very important. What really is, you know, is critical to focus on are the things that are,
00:24:46.300
are important and they may or may not be urgent, but importance is the most important. Those are the
00:24:52.280
first things. So we learn to organize and execute our life around our priorities, around the first
00:24:59.340
things that we identified. So, you know, habit three is the habit of productivity and of time
00:25:05.060
management of really life management, because we've kind of in habit to begin with the end of mind.
00:25:10.300
We've said, here's what I'm all about. Here's what my life's all about. Now habit three, I'm living it.
00:25:16.400
So to use the computer metaphor, habit one, you are not a program. You're a programmer.
00:25:21.600
So habit two, write the program. Habit three, execute the program, carry it out. What you've
00:25:29.180
said is important to you, live it. You know, that's where the rubber meets the road. Because if you say
00:25:34.960
that you value, you know, your family, and then though in habit three, you find yourself never spending
00:25:44.600
any time with your family, putting work always ahead of family, and even other interests ahead
00:25:52.560
of family, then you're, but you say the most important thing in your life is your family.
00:25:59.260
You're not putting your first thing first. It's maybe second or third or fourth. And so this is
00:26:06.660
just basically saying, be true to your values. Be true to the first things in your life. You know,
00:26:13.460
put them first. If you say they're first, put them first. And you know, it's where the rubber meets
00:26:18.260
the road. When we teach this to kids, because we actually, Seven Habits has been taught to CEOs of
00:26:24.960
companies. It's been taught to heads of state. And it's been taught to school superintendents,
00:26:31.840
school principals, and to school children as young as kindergarten. And when we teach them to school
00:26:39.260
kids, you know, kindergartners and the like, here's what habit three says. Rather than say,
00:26:44.100
put first things first, here's what we say. Work first, then play. And it's basically saying,
00:26:50.540
you know, get your work done, then go play. And it's just kind of a, just a simple way of saying,
00:26:56.900
you know, the course of least resistance is just to go play. And yeah, of course you want to
00:27:01.720
play when you're a kid, but do your work first, then we'll go play. And that's kind of a way of
00:27:06.040
saying, put first things first. And so all these three habits, as you said earlier, they're all
00:27:10.380
designed to help people gain independence or become a mature person. And that's something your father
00:27:15.240
talked about, about this idea of maturity, because once you're mature, that allows you to move to these
00:27:19.940
public victories and able to work with other people. And so that's a good transition to the habit four,
00:27:26.460
which is think win-win. And this is kind of what you're, you focused on with your writing with the
00:27:31.360
speed of trust. So what does win-win look like? Yep. So you're right. Right now, we've, you know,
00:27:37.680
the first three habits make me independent. I'm a capable, responsible person. You know,
00:27:43.880
I'm a real man in the art of manliness, I, you know, metaphor, right? And because I'm responsible
00:27:49.860
and I'm capable, now can I work well with others? Because most of life is interdependent.
00:27:56.640
So the starting habit for that is habit four, think win-win. And this is a mindset. That's why
00:28:04.120
my father used the word think win-win. It's a mindset. It's a way of thinking. And the way of
00:28:11.440
thinking is mutual benefit. Win-win. I want, yes, I want to win. That's the first win. But I also want
00:28:19.600
you to win too. That's the second win. And so it operates out of the idea that there is an abundance
00:28:25.920
mentality as opposed to what you might call a scarcity mentality. So a scarcity mentality is
00:28:34.660
the idea that there's only so much out there for people. You know, there's a pie. And if someone
00:28:42.140
gets a piece of the pie, that means there's less for me. There's less pie available because someone
00:28:47.120
else has got a piece. Another person gets a piece. Again, less pie for me because the pie is fixed.
00:28:51.060
It's limited. And, you know, that's a scarcity mentality. So if someone get, you know, at work,
00:28:56.620
if someone gets the credit, then that's less credit I'm getting. That's praise I'm getting.
00:29:00.360
You know, if someone gets paid well, then that's less pay for me. That's a scarcity mentality.
00:29:06.100
And the abundance mentality is saying there's plenty. There's enough for everyone. We can grow the pie.
00:29:12.140
We can expand the pie. So if someone gets credit, great. That doesn't take away anything for me.
00:29:16.660
I'm happy for them. And there could be enough for me too. And we can grow this. We can expand it.
00:29:23.940
And so the idea that, yes, you can win and I can win too. We both can win versus if there's a winner,
00:29:31.740
there's got to be a loser. And so it's a mindset of saying if we're going to work interdependently,
00:29:38.500
collaboratively, the best way to do that is by having a mindset of thinking, win, win. I win,
00:29:46.240
you win. We both win as a better way of working together. You know, you go into, you get married.
00:29:51.640
You want that to be win-win. You know, it would be, can you imagine coming up and saying, hey,
00:29:56.320
who's winning in your marriage? You know, that doesn't make sense. That's not, that's going to,
00:30:00.840
that's going to end up being a lose-lose for both marriage partners. But, but, uh, you know,
00:30:06.480
you want your partner, your spouse to win as well as yourself. You want, if you're in a business
00:30:12.500
partnership, the best partnerships are those in which there's mutual benefit to both parties.
00:30:17.720
If you want that to be sustainable, if one party is winning, the other party is losing over time,
00:30:24.120
that's not going to work. And they'll either exit the partnership or, or go out of business,
00:30:29.840
you know, the parties that's losing, it's just not sustainable. So if the reality
00:30:35.100
is interdependent, you got to work together. Win-win is the best and really most sustainable
00:30:41.480
solution. So habit four is the mindset of thinking win-win. That doesn't mean you'll always achieve
00:30:48.500
it because sometimes you may not, the circumstances might be such that you're not able to achieve win-win
00:30:55.900
and, you know, it might be that you can't get a win for you, or maybe they can't get a win for them.
00:31:02.060
Um, so you're best off not working together. You know, so my father called that, um, win-win
00:31:08.660
or no deal. In other words, if we can't find a win-win, we're better off not doing the deal,
00:31:14.220
not doing the relationship, not going into the partnership if we're not, if it's not mutual
00:31:18.400
benefit. And so, so you can't always achieve it. You know, we're, my father was a realist on this
00:31:24.340
and, but you strive to achieve it. You, it's your mindset to achieve it because it's a better
00:31:29.660
approach to relationships and to life. And this now, again, is where we, when we move from
00:31:35.780
independence to interdependence. So the best mindset is to think win-win, mutual benefit.
00:31:45.800
So you're thinking win-win part, part of the way you achieve win-win or try to achieve win-win
00:31:51.120
is the, the fifth habit, which is seek first, understand, then be understood. So what, what
00:31:57.300
do you think keeps people from understanding others? Like, why is this, to me, this seems
00:32:02.860
Brett, you're right. It's the single hardest habit. In fact, we have a, you know, we have a
00:32:08.740
seven habits, a feedback tool, a 360, a profile, a feedback instrument that you, people, your
00:32:16.280
listeners are probably seeing it at work. You know, you get a 360 feedback instrument around
00:32:20.940
the seven habits and the lowest rated habit is habit five. Seek first to understand, then to be
00:32:28.360
understood. It is difficult. And the reason it's the lowest rated habit is because most of us struggle
00:32:33.760
with this because our instincts are just the opposite. We want to be understood. We want to
00:32:39.960
give our side. We want to tell our story. We want to be heard. And we might think, Hey, I'm right. So
00:32:46.940
you need to hear this. And so our instincts are to lead out by saying, here's what I think. Here's,
00:32:52.780
you know, here's my thought. Here's my belief. Here's my idea. And my dad is not saying, don't do
00:32:58.940
that. He's just saying, don't start out with that. Do that second. Instead he's saying, seek first to
00:33:07.280
understand the other person. Then you can try to be understood. In other words, there is a time and a
00:33:13.680
place to say, here's my viewpoint on this. Here's how I see this. But his point is you will be more
00:33:20.040
effective at expressing your viewpoint at having influence with other people. When you first
00:33:28.040
take the time and the energy, the effort to try to understand the other person, because when the
00:33:34.000
other person feels understood, they become far more open to really listening to you and being
00:33:42.220
influenced by you. When they don't feel understood by you, when they feel like you didn't really listen
00:33:47.980
to them, then they're fighting for the equivalent of psychological air. You know, if we were to suck the
00:33:54.840
air out of the rooms that we're in right now, as we're doing this, this recording, Brett, if there
00:34:01.660
were no air available to either me or you, neither of us would care about what the other was saying.
00:34:06.000
We'd be just, we'd be fighting for air, right? To stay alive. Well, what, you know, but now that we
00:34:11.600
have air, we're not even thinking about it. So an unsatisfied need doesn't, excuse me, a satisfied
00:34:17.140
need doesn't motivate. When we have air, we don't think about it. But if you, if we didn't have air,
00:34:21.700
we'd be fighting for it. And the same thing is true of understanding another person.
00:34:28.920
What oxygen is to the body, understanding is to the soul of the person. They want, people want to
00:34:36.300
feel understood. It's a gift to understand another person that you give to them. So when you go into
00:34:42.420
a relationship and said, and say, Hey, let me try to understand you first. Let me listen to you.
00:34:48.460
And it's the deepest form of listening because it's empathic listening. Most people listen,
00:34:54.680
not with the intent to truly understand another person. Rather, most people are listening with the
00:35:01.040
intent to reply to the person to respond. So, you know, they might be respectful, kind of waiting
00:35:07.760
their turn, but they're kind of just formulating their reply and just kind of waiting for them to
00:35:13.680
finish. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You got it. You got out what you wanted to say. Okay. Yeah. Well,
00:35:16.620
here's how I see it. And the person that talked first, doesn't really feel like you heard them.
00:35:21.640
Like you, they don't feel understood, but if you take the time to say, Hey, let me try to understand
00:35:27.340
you first. Let me really listen to the point where you feel understood by me. So I'm going to kind of
00:35:34.620
reflect back what I hear you saying. I'll reflect the feeling behind it. And I'll try to capture the
00:35:39.680
content and see if I, you know, help me to make sure I'm understanding you. And if I'm not, tell
00:35:45.740
me what I'm missing. So I, cause my goal is to understand. And see that takes courage to do that
00:35:51.540
because you're a little bit vulnerable. That's why the first three habits, the private victory
00:35:56.200
precedes this, that, that gives you the strength, the courage, the independence to say, I'm enough of a
00:36:02.580
man, you know, to use the metaphor of this show that I can choose to listen to and truly understand
00:36:10.380
another person. Even if I see the world differently than that person, even if I disagree with them,
00:36:16.160
because understanding does not necessarily mean agreement. You might not agree. In fact,
00:36:20.640
you might completely disagree. All understanding is saying is I'm trying to understand you to your
00:36:27.180
satisfaction where you feel heard, listened to, and truly understood. And I, again, I may agree.
00:36:34.060
I may disagree. That takes that. It takes the reason it's hard. It takes courage. It takes true
00:36:41.360
independence. We have to be a little bit vulnerable. That's why we have to have strength to do this
00:36:46.840
because we're a little bit vulnerable. That's why the private victory comes first, but also it kind
00:36:51.700
goes against our instincts to try to want to be heard, to tell what we think. And again, my father's
00:36:58.080
saying, don't, you know, deny that. Just don't lead with that. Have that be second, not first. Seek
00:37:06.220
first to understand, then to be understood. When you go in that sequence, when, when the person feels
00:37:12.640
understood by you, they are so much more open to your influence and they'll listen to you better.
00:37:18.620
You'll have more, when you say, you know, here's how I view it. And they felt like you paid the price
00:37:23.920
to understand them. They listen far more carefully to you. They're more influenced by you. And I've
00:37:28.760
seen this happen in personal relationships. You know, I do, if I do this well with my wife,
00:37:35.840
if I really listen to where she feels, I understand her. Oh, she becomes far more open to what I think
00:37:44.400
when I don't do this, when I kind of just pretend to listen or just kind of wait my turn.
00:37:50.060
I don't have anywhere near the influence. So it's in personal relationships. It's clearly
00:37:54.420
in business. When there's understanding, you can come up with all kinds of solutions. When
00:37:59.400
people don't understand each other, they have a hard time really achieving solutions. So you are right
00:38:05.060
when you said, Brett, think win-win, habit four. The way to get to win-win is habit five by
00:38:13.720
understanding first the interest of the other person to their satisfaction. Then you sharing
00:38:18.640
your interest to your satisfaction. And that sets you up for habit six.
00:38:26.560
Yeah. So, so yeah, I think the synergize, this is a, I think it's become a buzzword in corporate
00:38:32.340
culture. It's been, you know, such a buzzword has been parody, but I think that parody is like,
00:38:37.240
there's a misunderstanding of what your father meant by synergizing. What does your father mean
00:38:42.180
by synergizing the seven habits? Here's what he means by synergize. So, you know, habit six synergize.
00:38:47.560
So it's really those three habits working together. Think win-win, habit four, habit five,
00:38:53.340
seek first to understand, then you've been understood. That's how you understand each
00:38:56.880
other's differences. Habit six synergize means you, you are trying to create something that is
00:39:04.740
bigger than the sum of its parts, where the whole is more than the sum of its parts. So that means this
00:39:10.920
one plus one equals three or five or 10 or more. You know, the whole is more than some of its parts.
00:39:20.700
Compromise is where one plus one equals one and a half. You know, I gave, you gave, we didn't create
00:39:28.320
something better. We had to just compromise. So one plus one equals one and a half. Sometimes
00:39:33.280
compromise is all you can do. It might just be the reality. There's really low trust and the best you
00:39:38.580
can do, like so often in government, compromise is kind of the best they can do. The idea of synergize
00:39:44.480
is saying, what if we got creative? What if our mindset was think win-win, we want, I want to win,
00:39:51.200
I want you to win too, and vice versa. What if we both sought first to understand each other, then to be
00:39:57.060
understood, and we both did that, and we both felt like we mutually understood each other, then what are
00:40:02.940
the possibilities in habit six of synergizing, where we can come up with, come up with ideas and
00:40:08.480
solutions that might be better than what either one of us might come up, you know, come up with on our
00:40:15.300
own. And this is the whole idea that, that our differences can become our strengths. And we come
00:40:23.100
up with solutions that we never could have come up with if just independently that we could do together
00:40:30.160
creatively, you know. And, and so, you know, that's the wisdom of teams. It's, it's the idea of, of,
00:40:36.620
of really saying, look, let's, let's create, let's be innovative, let's be creative. And, and let's,
00:40:44.020
you see the world differently than I do. Great. Let's value those differences in habits four and habits
00:40:48.900
five. Think win-win, seek first, understand, then to be understood, to create something better. Habit six,
00:40:54.200
to synergize, to have one plus one, equaling three or more. But you're right, Brett.
00:40:58.760
When my father was first using this word, it was kind of a new word and a fresh word.
00:41:05.060
And over time, because it became a kind of a corporate word of synergies and in mergers and
00:41:11.800
the like that often was seen, it kind of got a negative connotation attached to it in some ways.
00:41:17.940
But if, if the idea could be, this is innovation, this is creativity, this is coming up with new ideas
00:41:27.440
and possibilities that are better that we could come up with together. It would be harder to come
00:41:33.600
up with independently and by yourself only. All right. So the final habit is sharpen the saw.
00:41:39.340
And this seems to be like a capstone habit. It's supposed to help with all the habits. So what
00:41:42.520
does your father mean by sharpen the saw? He's saying, look, if, if you were sawing down a tree
00:41:47.920
with a big saw and you could try to work harder, try to saw faster, that might help, but maybe the
00:41:57.820
smartest thing you could do would be to stop and take time to sharpen that saw. Because if the saw,
00:42:04.260
if the saw is more sharp, you will saw that, that down that tree a lot faster. And that's the idea.
00:42:09.860
Never be too busy sawing to take time to sharpen the saw. And so sharpen the saw kind of becomes a
00:42:17.000
metaphor for saying, renew yourself, you know, invest in yourself, renew your body, your heart,
00:42:24.760
your mind, your spirit, renew yourself physically, you know, so that you're, you're exercising and
00:42:30.200
you're, you're taking care of yourself physically, your body, renew your heart, your relationships,
00:42:35.320
love and relationships and, you know, emotional renewal, renew yourself mentally. So you're
00:42:41.420
learning and improving, getting better. And you're keeping your mind alert, clear, active,
00:42:46.220
engaged, renew yourself spiritually. The idea here is not necessarily religion, but rather,
00:42:51.000
you know, meaning and purpose and contribution and creating value. And, you know, who are you?
00:42:56.660
What are you all about? That's the spiritual dimension that the need for meaning and purpose.
00:43:01.200
And so you're kind of, kind of trying to reinvest in yourself and to renew yourself and to,
00:43:08.260
you know, to sharpen the saw in those four dimensions, your body, your heart, your mind,
00:43:14.360
your spirit. And, and, and the very process of doing that makes you a sharper saw. So you're able to
00:43:21.420
perform better, to do better. So rather than burning yourself out, you know, a lot of us suffer from
00:43:27.440
burnout in our lives. And because, you know, we're just so busy and, and we're just so wrung out by so
00:43:33.900
many things. And, and it's like the pounding surf, just one thing after another. And, you know, I've
00:43:39.780
been there too. And the point is never be so busy sign to take time to sharpen the saw. If you take
00:43:46.120
time to renew yourself physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, you'll be more productive,
00:43:53.280
you'll be more effective and you'll be energized rather than burnt out. And you'll have more
00:43:58.800
capacity to do everything else better. So it kind of renews your ability to practice the other six
00:44:04.480
habits and to go back, trying to work well with other people, you know, starting with yourself,
00:44:09.900
being independent, and then becoming effectively interdependent, working well with others.
00:44:15.380
And then you renew your abilities, your capacity to do all of that. So that's kind of the capstone,
00:44:21.080
exactly what you said, Brett, of the seventh habit, sharpen the saw, helps you do the other
00:44:25.860
six on an ongoing basis. Well, Stephen, this has been a fantastic conversation. Where can people go
00:44:30.780
to learn more about the 30th anniversary edition of the seven habits and more about the work at
00:44:35.860
FranklinCovey? Absolutely. So the seven habits have had affected people. The 30th anniversary is
00:44:40.920
coming out in May, 2020. And you can go to Amazon or any bookstore. It will be everywhere on that.
00:44:48.060
And the great thing about this 30th edition, by the way, is that there's some value-added
00:44:53.140
pieces, even for the people that have already read the seven habits. If you liked the seven
00:44:57.820
habits before, you'll even like it more now. Let me tell you why. Because first, you know,
00:45:03.080
the seven habits is in there exactly as it was before. Not one word of my father has been changed.
00:45:07.800
But what we have done is we've added at the end of each chapter, additional fresh insights
00:45:14.460
to those different habits that my brother Sean wrote. And my brother Sean is the one that took
00:45:20.220
my father's work and adapted it to teens, seven habits of highly effective teens and seven habits
00:45:26.080
of happy kids. And he's also done a lot of work with organizations and, you know, with his work on
00:45:31.620
the four disciplines of execution, along with Chris Montesny and Jim Hewling. And so he has a real
00:45:37.460
insight and he's going to bring fresh insights. And it's kind of also kind of interviews with my
00:45:43.840
father and back, you know, behind the scenes, insight from my father that my brother is going
00:45:50.120
to add to this. So it's really additive to the seven habits for those that have already read it.
00:45:55.540
For those that haven't, I think you'll find this is such a useful, practical framework of being
00:46:01.480
effective in your life, you know, independently and then interdependently, you know, as a person,
00:46:07.180
as a man, you know, in the art of manliness and, and, and, and to help you succeed. So you can go to
00:46:15.700
the bookstore, you can go, you know, online, you can go to the Franklin Covey website. So just
00:46:21.300
FranklinCovey.com and, and you'll learn about the seven habits and, and kind of training programs and
00:46:27.340
all kinds of different tools to help you to learn more, go deeper into seven habits of highly
00:46:33.260
effective people, which really is 30 years young. And, and, and just, I think it remains, maybe
00:46:40.540
Rhett, if I could be bold to say this, just kind of like a Jim Collins, the author of Good to Great
00:46:46.680
called it an operating system of human effectiveness of helping people just kind of understand how to be
00:46:55.320
effective first, personally, and second with other people, because it's based upon your character.
00:47:02.580
They're these foundational principles that are so actionable. My father kind of has a gift of
00:47:07.740
making it actionable and memorable to people. So hope that our listeners are, you know, we'll find
00:47:13.140
great value from this newly released 30th anniversary edition.
00:47:17.540
Well, fantastic. Stephen M. R. Covey, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.
00:47:20.780
Hey, thank you so much. I really enjoyed talking to you, Brad, and appreciate the great work that you do.
00:47:26.060
My guest today was Stephen M. R. Covey. He is one of the sons of the late Stephen Covey,
00:47:29.720
the author of The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, which is out now with a 30th
00:47:34.200
anniversary edition with new insights from the kids of Stephen Covey. It's available on amazon.com.
00:47:39.280
You can find out more information about The Seven Habits at franklincovey.com. Also check out
00:47:43.320
our show notes at aom.is slash seven habits, where you can find links to resources where you can delve
00:47:47.500
deeper into this topic. Well, that wraps up another edition of The AOM Podcast. Check out
00:47:58.860
our website at artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives, as well as thousands
00:48:02.480
of articles we've written over the years about pretty much anything you can think of. In fact,
00:48:05.520
we've got a whole series about The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Go check that out. And if
00:48:09.340
you'd like to enjoy ad-free episodes of The AOM Podcast, you can do so on Stitcher Premium. Head
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over to stitcherpremium.com, sign up, use code manliness for a free month trial of Stitcher
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Premium. Once you're signed up, download the app, Android or iOS, and you start enjoying ad-free
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episodes of The AOM Podcast. And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate it if you take one
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minute to give us a review on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. It helps out a lot. And if you've done
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that already, thank you. Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you'd
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think would get something out of it. As always, thank you for the continued support. Until next time,
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this is Brett McKay, reminding you not to listen to the AOM Podcast, but put what you've heard into action.