The Art of Manliness - #608： How Caffeine Hooks, Hurts, and Helps Us

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast more than 80

00:00:11.580 percent of the world's population consumes the same psycho stimulant every single day

00:00:15.920 yet few of us know very much about our favorite daily drug caffeine my guest today will shed some

00:00:20.880 light on humanity's love affair with this pick-me-up substance his name is murray carpenter

00:00:24.380 and he's the author of caffeinated how our daily habit helps hurts and hooks us we begin our

00:00:28.620 discussion exploring what caffeine does to our mind and body before delving into how caffeine

00:00:32.560 consumption developed in different places all around the world and how the way we get our

00:00:36.160 caffeine fix has evolved over the millennia murray i then discuss the popularity of coffee in america

00:00:40.860 and how our grandparents actually drink way more coffee than we do today murray explains how

00:00:44.940 caffeinated sodas became a stimulating competitor to coffee in the 19th century and how energy drinks

00:00:49.720 became a huge business in the late 20th century murray and i then discuss how you're probably

00:00:53.540 ingesting more caffeine than you realize and what the generally recommended maximum amount to consume

00:00:57.640 per day is we then get into whether caffeine can enhance athletic performance how much you need

00:01:01.520 to take for it to make a difference we then discuss the overlooked benefits of caffeine as well

00:01:05.400 as its downsides and we end our conversation with the question of whether caffeine is an addictive

00:01:09.300 substance this episode will get you thinking about your morning joe differently after the show's

00:01:13.120 over check out our show notes at aom.is slash caffeinated

00:01:16.440 all right murray carpenter welcome to the show thanks thanks for your interest in in caffeine

00:01:30.020 so yeah a couple of uh a couple years ago you published a book called caffeinated how our daily

00:01:35.540 habit helps hurts and hooks us so what's the story behind this book you were just you had a caffeine

00:01:40.160 habit you want to explore why do i drink coffee every morning yeah i mean that that's the nut of it

00:01:45.540 i've been a caffeine drinker for decades and and i've been intrigued by it you know the the idea that

00:01:50.860 most of us do consume caffeine daily and yet we don't think of it as a drug and so that was sort

00:01:57.280 of my point of entry is you know what is it about this substance that that makes us makes us want to

00:02:02.060 consume it to drink coffee every day so let's talk about okay what is caffeine so it it is it a drug

00:02:07.900 it is a drug by any standard yeah it's it's a drug it's it's a simple drug it's it's an alkaloid

00:02:13.560 it's a compound that emerged independently in many different plants all over the world and so

00:02:21.160 wherever caffeine seems to have evolved humans seem to have figured out how to put it to use for

00:02:28.180 their own purposes so let's broadly speaking because we'll get in the details of what caffeine

00:02:32.480 does to our minds and bodies but broadly speaking what what do we know that that caffeine does to our

00:02:38.400 physiology and even our our minds well its primary mechanism is very very simple there's a neurotransmitter

00:02:46.520 called adenosine and in broadest terms what this does is lets us know that we're tired and caffeine

00:02:55.660 looks remarkably like adenosine and is able to sit in the receptors for adenosine and basically nudge

00:03:02.760 them aside and not you know not let adenosine sit there and um you know it's like it's sitting at the

00:03:09.040 bar stool and adenosine has to walk away and so you know it's this simple trick of sort of pushing

00:03:16.180 adenosine aside that that allows caffeine to work the magic we know so well which is basically to make

00:03:22.140 us feel you know a little bit more stimulated a little bit more energetic so that's interesting so

00:03:26.760 like the caffeine itself isn't giving us energy it's just blocking a neurotransmitter that makes us feel

00:03:31.940 tired and we don't feel tired yeah yeah that would that would be the simplest way to look at it yeah

00:03:36.760 okay and besides blocking that neurotransmitter any other effects that it has on our brain chemistry or

00:03:42.880 physiology you know there are some more subtle things it may enhance a calcium pump in that's in

00:03:49.780 muscles that might subtly enhance your muscle strength but you know by and large that that's the

00:03:57.880 principle mechanism for which it's known and loved is is it's effect it's a relationship with adenosine

00:04:03.900 okay so you you talked about that this is it's a substance that's all it's natural it's found all

00:04:09.400 around the world do we know when human beings figured out that if they you know ate a leaf or drink ate a

00:04:16.900 nut that they would have this boost of energy from caffeine we have a pretty good sense that

00:04:22.380 that is well we know it's been going on for thousands of years at least and i visited the

00:04:27.920 place that we have the the earliest known the earliest evidence of human use of caffeine and

00:04:35.360 that's in a part of what's now mexico and in chiapas and basically there were there were people there who

00:04:43.720 were consuming cacao who were consuming chocolatey drinks 3 000 years ago and so archaeologists have been

00:04:50.480 able to you know extract or find the caffeine in the residue of these chocolatey drinks 3 000 years

00:04:57.680 ago so we know that you know back then people were cultivating cacao a caffeinated product and they were

00:05:04.000 consuming it and so we we know that that was going on 3 000 years ago around the same time it looks like

00:05:09.940 tea culture probably emerged in china you know by folklore the chinese tea culture what might be as

00:05:17.620 old as 5 000 years but it seems to have been you know around 3 000 years ago that that started

00:05:24.280 happening so you know those are some of the earliest indications that people were using caffeine so this

00:05:29.620 is interesting because like these are independent discoveries like multiple discoveries like human

00:05:34.220 beings just disparate groups figured this out on their own without any connection to each other

00:05:39.540 that to me is one of the most fascinating things yeah because we haven't even talked about coffee

00:05:44.180 which which all was another independent discovery but you know much later maybe only as recent as a

00:05:50.080 thousand years ago that people in africa and northern africa were starting to then chew the coffee bean

00:05:55.440 and eventually started to roast it and and develop it into the beverage we we know now but yeah there

00:06:03.220 and additionally in in in north america there were native americans who were consuming in tea form

00:06:08.880 yopon holly which is also caffeinated so yeah it is odd because yeah i think it's it's hard for us to

00:06:17.180 imagine people sort of wandering around doing amateur ethnobotany right like hey i wonder if i chew on

00:06:23.640 this what it'll do to me but yeah people did it and they figured it out yeah people have been looking for

00:06:29.460 like i mean i guess being a human is is tiring it's exhausting so we've been looking for something

00:06:33.440 to help us out with that for for thousands of years yeah i think i think that's part of it and

00:06:39.120 and and i think and we can talk about this more but it's it i think one of the underestimated

00:06:44.740 aspects of caffeine is it's not just a stimulant right we we know it for its stimulant effects

00:06:51.500 particularly at higher doses but at lower doses it it has a much more subtle and yet i think a very

00:06:58.000 significant effect it just makes you feel good and so you know i think that's part of the appeal

00:07:02.980 uh all over the world so let's talk about different ways we get caffeine so we've talked about three

00:07:08.760 ways already so in in mexico they were cacao so it's chocolate in china it was tea and then in africa

00:07:15.800 i mean i think most people don't don't realize this here's another thing i think what i love about this

00:07:19.800 book is it really explores like what where caffeine comes from is i think most people just take it for

00:07:23.780 granted the coffee bean it's originally from africa but i think most people think when they think coffee

00:07:28.700 they think oh juan valdez south america that was a transplant it was a transplant absolutely yeah

00:07:34.640 yeah originally from africa and then you know spread through the islamic world and you know didn't even 0.54

00:07:41.080 probably get into europe until maybe the 1600s i mean you know it was it was kind of a slow migration

00:07:48.580 and then eventually of course came over to the u.s but yeah the you know it's not native to many of

00:07:55.180 what we consider the coffee growing regions yes it's it's the plant is is native to the african

00:08:00.600 continent and has been transplanted worldwide and of course yeah some of the coffees that we

00:08:05.500 are most fond of are now grown in south and central america and let's talk about coffee consumption

00:08:11.820 that's a that's for most of american history that's been the primary caffeine delivery substance

00:08:17.160 so why why did coffee take root in america compared to other cultures like even in europe

00:08:22.600 i mean i was like tea was sort of the place where they got their caffeine from and how has coffee

00:08:27.140 consumption changed throughout american history well yeah in terms of how it took root i don't know

00:08:33.900 there there have been there there are some good historians who've gotten into this but it's certainly

00:08:39.420 been an american beverage you know perceived as an american beverage for quite some time you know

00:08:44.260 there's some people who even think that at the time of the boston tea party it was perceived as

00:08:49.800 you know patriotic to not consume tea but instead to consume coffee so it it's it's been at least for a long

00:09:00.300 time throughout the history of america it's been it's been a popular beverage increasing in popularity

00:09:06.700 through the 1800s and through the early 1900s and and then really peaking around the world war ii years

00:09:14.580 and that's one of the things that really fascinated me to learn is that people you know are i guess our

00:09:22.640 great-grandparents generation that era they were consuming about twice as much coffee as we do now

00:09:28.900 and that's you know that was a real surprise to me well that's what's going on there because i mean

00:09:33.200 there's like a starbucks in every corner now you can go to any convenience store get coffee how is it

00:09:37.200 that we're consuming less coffee than our great-grandparents i know it's it's it's really

00:09:42.100 counterintuitive and and you're right yeah there it's it seems it seems like you can't you know you

00:09:48.360 can't throw a rock without hitting a coffee shop or i guess one way of looking at is we're sort of

00:09:54.220 consuming coffee more conspicuously now we're making a bigger deal out of it we're paying more for it

00:09:59.180 but in in the era that i'm talking about when people were drinking something like 53 gallons of

00:10:04.080 coffee a year per capita there was probably like just a coffee machine going in the break room you

00:10:11.520 know there was there was a coffee pot or a percolator probably at the time just cranking in your house

00:10:16.300 all the time people were just sort of habitually routinely consuming cups of coffee and eventually

00:10:24.300 what happened is uh coffee got displaced by other beverages that are more popular and one of those

00:10:29.560 beverages and you talk about this the rise of soda pop and caffeinated soda drinks yeah that's that's a

00:10:35.760 that's a huge you know i think that would be the one that that you would say really if you look at the

00:10:41.140 the the graph of where of how coffee has declined and how sodas coke etc have grown that they pretty

00:10:50.600 much you know you you can you can see that one is replacing the other and the the lines crossed

00:10:56.120 probably around the early 70s and that you know that that's a big part of it is we're we're consuming

00:11:02.400 a lot more coca-cola or a lot more soda in general than we did in you know the late 40s early 50s

00:11:09.500 and and that in in part displaced coffee drinking and and you know to be clear there there's been a

00:11:15.780 some something of a rebound like over the last 15 20 years during this this golden age of coffee

00:11:22.340 that we're talking about you know with the starbucks on every corner certainly i think per capita our

00:11:26.560 our coffee consumption has increased somewhat but still we're we're you know we're pikers compared to

00:11:31.360 what people were doing in the 40s and 50s and imagine the coffee in the 40s and 50s wasn't that great

00:11:36.960 they weren't doing like these exotic roasts it was just like all right you got Folgers instant coffee

00:11:41.460 there you go yeah and i i think to our palates today it probably wouldn't have been good at all

00:11:46.380 and you know the coffee beans were probably and i've talked to a few people about this there there

00:11:51.740 you could probably get some really good coffees back then but part of it has to do with how how

00:11:56.840 it's processed i mean yeah like if you if you were getting the big can of maxwell house or Folgers that

00:12:02.660 you know just a commercial blend it would be roasted far away from you long before you consumed it

00:12:08.320 ground put in a can and then you know it may be weeks months before you even crack the can

00:12:14.900 and so yeah the coffee wouldn't have even even if even if it was a great bean that was being roasted

00:12:21.600 it's not going to taste the same as a good bean that you're that was freshly roasted and you that you

00:12:28.800 ground just before you consumed it and additionally you know people were percolating coffee and you know

00:12:34.320 some people like percolating percolator coffee i've given given it a hard time before and people have

00:12:39.000 rushed to its defense but it over extracts it tends to over extract the flavors and so this would be

00:12:45.240 like if if you're if you're using a cone filter you know and and after you you've put the right amount

00:12:52.380 of coffee through you think oh i'm not going to put any more coffee in i'm just going to like try to get

00:12:56.240 that last bit out of there and it kind of has this like funky stale flavor i i think that that's part

00:13:03.860 of what percolators did all right so coffee was the primary source of caffeine for americans for a long

00:13:09.960 time but then starting in the late 19th century coffee began to have a competitor in the form of

00:13:15.440 caffeinated sodas like coca-cola what i think is interesting is when soda caffeinated soda first came

00:13:20.880 out on the scene the temperance movement for example touted it as a healthier alternative to

00:13:25.720 alcohol and really sung its praises but eventually drinks like coke and other caffeinated sodas they

00:13:31.280 came in for some criticism for their caffeine content and what's interesting is that coffee even

00:13:36.240 though it had caffeine didn't get the same amount of criticism as caffeinated soda what was going on

00:13:41.500 there yeah well so coke went through an interesting evolution you know it was first launches like a

00:13:48.840 patent medicine with with wine and you know a little bit of cocaine you know i i think it would have

00:13:54.840 been a pretty powerful beverage for most of us but then eventually it became a temperance beverage i mean

00:14:02.160 it was actually marketed that way and it it was mostly then you know sugar or you know sweetness and

00:14:09.240 caffeine and what happened was in the early 1900s people were beginning to be concerned about the

00:14:16.020 caffeine in the product and just about the product in general and about the fact that it might be

00:14:20.280 addictive and that it might be marketed to kids and there was a hard charging regulator in the bureau

00:14:26.020 of chemistry which was basically the precursor to the fda and he basically challenged coca-cola

00:14:33.640 in a court case over their use of caffeine and said it was an adulterated substance that it was marketed

00:14:40.280 to children that it was addictive and so that was like one of the early regulatory challenges to

00:14:46.660 cocaine to sorry not to cocaine to uh to coca-cola and the soda industry and as you highlight in the

00:14:52.260 book i didn't know this but like the early coca-colas they had the same amount of caffeine as like a

00:14:56.600 modern day red bull that surprised me too yeah and i was glad there were some good statistics that i

00:15:01.580 could mine uh to find that and that that all came out of this court case because they they were able to

00:15:05.840 you know detail like the constituents of the early coca-cola yeah so it had more caffeine and and

00:15:12.280 the way i look at it is coca-cola invented the energy drink you know something like 80 years before

00:15:17.420 red bull did as a result of the court case and and i've i've scoured coca-cola's archives and every

00:15:24.280 every other historical account i can find so i i don't know i've never heard coca-cola say that this

00:15:30.680 is what we did but sometime during that court case it appears that they reduced the caffeine content

00:15:37.800 and that it was probably further further reduced through the 1930s so that original sort of energy

00:15:44.740 drink coke that was that would have been very much akin to a modern red bull was pretty much gone by at

00:15:51.360 least the 20s or 30s and something you highlight too is that even then like coca-cola and some of the

00:15:56.580 other soda manufacturers they understood i mean it sounded kind of like some of like the tobacco stuff

00:16:01.780 that we saw in the 80s and 90s where the pop makers like they'd say the caffeine was there just for

00:16:07.960 flavor but like they knew that it actually was a stimulant and kind of addicted people but they didn't

00:16:13.680 want to say that because then it would you know they'd have to like sort of market it as a drug

00:16:17.800 basically i think that's the case and i and i think you know to their credit i mean one one of the

00:16:23.900 arguments at that time is what would you do next regulate coffee and the argument of course and

00:16:30.160 it's a valid argument coffee has more caffeine than this beverage so why would it be fair to regulate

00:16:36.320 coca-cola and not coffee but i think that's been a question you know through the years and every time

00:16:41.900 the regulatory battles heat up again and this happened in the 1980s it happened you know more

00:16:46.300 recently with energy drinks the question is this is to what degree does caffeine the drug drive the

00:16:54.140 consumption you know the the purchase pattern of these products of sodas and of energy drinks and

00:16:59.560 it's a question that i i don't think has been adequately resolved you know even today but you

00:17:04.960 do highlight research where they've done studies on that where they'll give people like a soda that has

00:17:10.580 caffeine and not caffeine in it they don't tell what was but like people seem to be drawn to the

00:17:15.300 beverage with caffeine in it yeah and it increases uh you know the term is liking it increases you know

00:17:22.520 the liking of the product there's another term of reinforcement so you know the caffeine reinforces

00:17:28.700 the purchase of the product so in other words if you if you reach for a soda that's caffeinated

00:17:35.680 you're going to tend to like it and you'll be more inclined to reach for it next time than for an

00:17:41.220 uncaffeinated product and i think you know the social science again or the science of the the

00:17:48.120 metabolic science we we need more of that and it would be good to see more of that but i i think

00:17:52.600 something that we overlook is is the market has spoken on this i mean eight of the top 10 selling

00:17:57.600 sodas are caffeinated if you want to sell a beverage in america and you want it to be or you know all

00:18:04.500 over the world and you want it to be successful i think you know adding caffeine is is a pretty sure

00:18:10.240 bet yeah it's hard to find post them these days you can't really find that stuff anymore yeah or even

00:18:15.420 you know caffeine free coke and so you know some people do like sprite and and some people like

00:18:20.940 fanta but you know aside from that you know the the colas the diet cokes uh mountain dew diet

00:18:25.700 mountain dew all all of the top sellers you know dr pepper they're all caffeinated we're gonna take a quick

00:18:30.720 break for your words from our sponsors

00:18:34.500 and now back to the show so soda pop caffeinated soda beverages they overtook coffee consumption

00:18:40.000 for the sort of the source of caffeine in like the 70s but caffeinated soda has been

00:18:45.220 overcome by energy drinks this is like something that started like in the 90s let's talk about the

00:18:50.560 history because this is really interesting when did energy drinks start taking off like this idea

00:18:54.720 that there's a drink that's just designed for energy like coffee and coke they might have been

00:18:59.880 marketed as it sort of a pick-me-up but they never said this will give you energy one of this

00:19:03.720 ideas that you have a drink just for energy yeah i would say the late 90s for sure early 2000s this

00:19:10.520 this is starting to become a trend and you know 2005 from there on i would say red bull was really

00:19:18.220 really starting to take off and and you're right it's it's a different thing it's it's not just saying

00:19:23.760 oh you know this is a refreshing beverage or this is a stimulating beverage it's like you know here

00:19:28.160 have this it'll give you energy it was it was a brazen very direct marketing you know of the

00:19:34.680 caffeine of of the stimulating effect of the drink and it was something new at the time no i know from

00:19:39.800 my own personal experience like 2000 that year 2000 i was a senior in high school and i remember

00:19:47.460 that's kind of when red bull came out i think red bull came out in the late 90s but i started before my

00:19:52.060 football games i would get two red bulls one was to drink before the the game and the other was to

00:19:57.300 drink at halftime that was like the first time ever like i consumed a beverage just for performance

00:20:01.740 before i would drink coke and mountain dew because it just tasted good but here i was you know 17 years

00:20:07.480 old buying a drink so it could enhance my performance wow that's you're an early adopter

00:20:12.420 really because a lot of people had were not yet consuming energy drinks at the time and what's

00:20:17.680 interesting about these energy drinks is that in the beginning they often downplayed the caffeine in

00:20:21.800 their products and instead they promoted like the other ingredients like the guarana or what are the

00:20:26.160 other weird supplements they have in there why did they downplay the caffeine yeah that's that's a

00:20:31.080 really important point i think they downplayed the caffeine because the the regulatory framework had

00:20:36.660 been fraught it had never been resolved very much i mean fda basically had considered caffeine

00:20:43.020 generally recognized as safe that's one of their their terms when it was used in cola type beverages

00:20:49.120 so it was for very specific uses and i think what red bull did was they kind of nudged the door open

00:20:56.040 they're like hey what if we you know marketed this highly or more caffeinated beverage and just see what

00:21:03.880 happens and it became wildly successful and that's you know then other energy drink manufacturers came in

00:21:11.820 behind it and they're like well you know nobody has stopped red bull the fda hasn't done anything

00:21:16.080 i guess this must be okay and then gradually you have seen this evolution where you know caffeine was

00:21:22.700 not really talked about yeah it was you know taurine or whatever all these other products when you know

00:21:28.400 caffeine is really the the so-called energy product in any of these the energy ingredient in any of these

00:21:34.400 drinks but more recently you have seen bottlers more brazenly or more openly i'd say using the word

00:21:42.520 caffeine on their products and this is sort of this the energy drinks allows you allows people to see

00:21:48.160 the weird murky world of food and drug regulation because in a lot of in the early days a lot of these

00:21:54.660 energy drinks they wouldn't put the caffeine content like on the the thing itself instead they say

00:22:02.080 there's like there's a proprietary energy blend and you had no clue like how much caffeine you were

00:22:06.860 getting in your you know energy shot and it's because they were marketing themselves as a supplement

00:22:11.640 and because they marketed themselves as a supplement there was less stringent standards if if they had

00:22:16.800 marketed themselves as a beverage a drink yeah you're absolutely right and fda did issue some guidance

00:22:24.440 on that basically you know saying if something's consumed like a beverage you know then it should be marketed

00:22:29.820 as a beverage i mean you know if it's if it's a 12 ounce energy drink and it's in the cooler you know

00:22:36.220 next to the sodas is that really a supplement or or is it essentially a more caffeinated soda you know

00:22:42.280 and i think fda came down on the side of the ladder so yeah that was that was one big change and you are

00:22:49.080 seeing increasingly i would say you're seeing improved caffeine labeling it it still leaves a lot to be

00:22:55.660 desired i mean you still need virtually need a magnifying glass in some cases to see how much

00:23:00.520 caffeine is in a product but at least you know if if you're looking for it you can usually find it

00:23:05.120 one of the things that's really interesting is during the super bowl this year coca-cola launched

00:23:09.080 a new in the u.s they've launched elsewhere earlier a new drink called coca-cola energy i mean

00:23:14.080 you know buried distinctly it's an energy drink and it's got you know the coca-cola brand on it so this

00:23:19.980 is something that they hadn't really done before they had purchased a share in monster and they had

00:23:25.140 a distribution deal so you know coca-cola was still sort of keeping the energy drink thing at

00:23:32.200 arm's length but now they've got this coca-cola energy and on the can it says guarana b vitamins

00:23:38.980 caffeine i mean right in the front so it's an example of how you know coca-cola has tiptoed around to

00:23:45.020 to this to embracing energy and and notably uh this has you know in the the pretty much the same

00:23:52.460 caffeine concentration as their 1909 beverage although now it's coming in you know a 12 ounce

00:23:58.720 can so it has i don't know 118 milligrams it's it's almost the exact shape of a can and caffeine

00:24:05.420 content of a red bull but it all went full circle it all went full circle yeah that's my point and and uh

00:24:11.940 and i think you know to your point about people you know bottlers not using the term caffeine i

00:24:18.080 think they're coming around to it and i think coca-cola understands the value now of touting

00:24:21.600 caffeine all right so let's talk about you know figuring out how much caffeine you consume on a

00:24:26.760 daily basis i remember a couple years ago i sat down to think about you know how much caffeine i

00:24:30.700 consume on a daily basis and i was like gobsmacked like i was actually i was consuming more than i thought

00:24:35.140 i was so why is it so hard for people to know how much caffeine they're consuming on a on a daily basis

00:24:41.320 and this is something that i became endlessly fascinated with it's very difficult it's very

00:24:46.920 difficult for a couple of reasons one because we consume caffeine often in you know many different

00:24:52.320 products throughout the day so many of us drink coffee in the morning what i came to realize a lot

00:24:57.220 of people a very common pattern is to have coffee in the morning and then you know an energy drink or

00:25:02.880 soda either at mid-morning or mid-afternoon or with lunch and so yeah there's there's a number of

00:25:09.080 different ways that you can get your caffeine another challenge is that you know particularly

00:25:14.460 with coffee the caffeine content can vary widely i mean so some people people like to say you know

00:25:20.660 how much coffee do you drink and people say i drink a cup a day well that you know that's an absolutely

00:25:25.260 worthless metric i mean a cup could be a five ounce weak cup they could have you know 80 milligrams

00:25:31.100 of coffee or it could be you know like a 16 ounce cup from starbucks that might have 325 milligrams of

00:25:39.760 coffee so there's just a tremendous variation and then you know on top of this i think we don't really

00:25:47.520 think of caffeine in terms of milligrams we don't really you know if someone says how much caffeine

00:25:52.120 do you consume you say well you know i drank a soda or you know i drank a cup of coffee but you

00:25:57.640 don't say well you know i drank 200 to 300 milligrams but i think you really kind of do

00:26:02.340 have to total up the milligrams uh as you probably did when when you were trying to understand your

00:26:06.860 own caffeine consumption in order to get a handle on how much you're consuming and do we have any like

00:26:11.580 a rough idea like the average amount of caffeine people are consuming on a daily basis i'd have to say

00:26:16.980 you know average for coffee drinkers they're probably in the range of of 250 to 300 milligrams that's

00:26:22.900 that would be my guess and and most people in the u.s are consuming coffee regularly so you know coffee

00:26:29.140 remains and this is a weird thing to understand coffee remains our primary source of caffeine we're

00:26:35.240 consuming more caffeine from coffee than from any other beverage but by ounces you know by by actually

00:26:41.400 you know drinks daily we're consuming more soda pop but the soda it has less caffeine so we're by volume

00:26:49.720 we're consuming more soft drinks but by caffeine we're still getting most of our caffeine from coffee

00:26:55.080 gotcha and like what's the recommended amount from health experts on like what is okay caffeine

00:27:02.760 consumption for an average person and here too this is this is an area that's kind of soft but most people

00:27:08.500 suggest not going above 400 milligrams and this is going to vary a lot from person to person because

00:27:15.240 some people are just much more caffeine sensitive than others and but you know 400 milligrams seems

00:27:21.000 to be sort of a level that most people are saying yeah you know up to 400 milligrams you're okay beyond

00:27:25.380 that you know maybe back off well that's an interesting point some people there's a genetic component to

00:27:30.640 caffeine some people process caffeine a lot faster than other people so they could drink a cup of coffee

00:27:36.760 and it like right before bed and then go right to sleep wouldn't affect them and another person does the

00:27:42.260 same thing they would be up all night you're absolutely right yeah it's it's it's highly variable

00:27:47.100 and certainly seems to be genetic which is to say you know like i know a family of people and they're

00:27:52.680 all this way that they that they'll they'll drink a pot of coffee with dinner you know and then just

00:27:56.980 trundle off to bed but yeah uh some people metabolize caffeine quickly some people metabolize it slowly

00:28:02.780 and some people are really on the low end of you know are really quite sensitive to caffeine and

00:28:08.440 and this is something i i kind of didn't i don't know i think i discounted it and until i did the

00:28:14.200 research for the book but even what might be like a very small amount the trace amount that's left in

00:28:20.720 a cup of decaf maybe 12 milligrams of caffeine that could be enough for someone who's very caffeine

00:28:26.020 sensitive to really make them feel you know uncomfortable that that that they would really get a boost out

00:28:31.060 of that so yeah we our individual reactions to to caffeine varies dramatically so yo in the part of

00:28:40.400 the book i thought was really interesting you talk about different groups of people researching and

00:28:44.100 exploring how caffeine can be used to enhance performance you talk about the military the

00:28:48.280 military is basically putting caffeine in everything surprising stuff like even food they're putting

00:28:53.520 caffeine in but the thing that i'd like to focus on is sports because i think that's where most people

00:28:58.900 if they're athletic in any way they they think they're sort of natural now it's like well you know

00:29:04.200 if i need a boost i have a little bit of caffeine before i do my workout to kind of give me that extra

00:29:09.040 pep what does the research say about caffeine and how it enhances athletic performance well it backs up

00:29:16.280 that that perception you're talking about the idea that yeah you know if i want to if i want to do well

00:29:22.000 or as you would have in high school with during football if i want to do well i might do a little

00:29:26.980 better caffeinated and it looks like the optimal dose for most people would be like three to six

00:29:34.700 milligrams of caffeine per kilo of body weight and this could be a fair amount for you know a bigger

00:29:40.720 person you know maybe 300 milligrams of caffeine or you know say a couple of strong 12 ounce cups of

00:29:48.960 coffee if that's the way you wanted to take it before your athletic event i think the more notable

00:29:54.080 thing about this is that for most athletic events and most of the research has been on endurance

00:29:59.840 events but say if you were going to run an hour race caffeine versus a placebo would probably improve

00:30:07.220 your time between one to three percent in that race and that's i mean that's obviously a winning

00:30:12.460 margin in in many athletic events and that's why you're seeing so many athletic specific products you

00:30:18.220 know gels and beverages and things for people to to consume while they're doing you know triathlons

00:30:24.260 or etc i was surprised the amount of like caffeine you need the dosage for caffeine so i think the

00:30:29.500 example the example you gave in your book was an 80 kilo athlete which is about 176 pounds so if

00:30:35.020 you want to take six milligrams per kilogram that would be 480 milligrams of caffeine which is like

00:30:40.280 double what like the average and that's like at one time like you consume that once and then do your

00:30:45.580 thing i mean if you weigh 200 pounds i mean that's going to be insane like how much caffeine you got

00:30:50.060 to back to get you know get that effect that is and that's the high end but you're still going to

00:30:54.400 get a good effect i think in the three to five milligram per kilo range so but yeah that is to

00:31:00.260 say yeah that would that would be a huge amount and and here you know the researchers i i spoke with

00:31:04.600 talked about this you have to weigh the the the benefits and possibly the cost if you're actually

00:31:08.900 getting you know like stressed and anxious or having some like gi like stomach upset from the

00:31:15.240 caffeine you're consuming obviously you know that's too much and that's gonna it's it's gonna

00:31:20.100 eliminate any benefit you might have gotten from the caffeine but you know the the short answer is

00:31:26.200 yeah some caffeine and probably a moderate dose will improve for most people their athletic performance

00:31:32.260 and so what is the what's the regulations of caffeine so if it enhances your performance

00:31:37.280 most drugs that enhance performance in athletics talking about the olympic stuff football like those

00:31:43.220 are banned or they're they're restricted somehow why isn't caffeine why isn't that been regulated in

00:31:50.220 sports and this too is is to me quite fascinating the reason is that the same dosage the same you know

00:31:58.000 therapeutic dosage that would that would give you an athletic advantage is very much in the range of

00:32:04.560 the average americans daily consumption so you know if you consider that it's basically saying okay

00:32:10.560 most people are consuming caffeine daily you know maybe 300 milligrams but for an athletic event you

00:32:17.120 can't do that and so i think unlike you know testosterone or any any other sort of whatever you

00:32:24.180 might use as to to dope with i think caffeine is is really quite in a category by itself that that

00:32:31.520 makes its regulation fraught yeah and as you said earlier it's going to affect people differently so

00:32:36.100 someone might boost the performance a lot someone could take that same amount of caffeine and not

00:32:40.140 have any performance enhancement it's true yeah and and so it's going to vary and and i think most you

00:32:45.460 know most professional or high-end amateur athletes have figured out their caffeine strategy and i think

00:32:51.840 this has changed an awful lot over the last 30 years you know i used to race bikes in the 80s and

00:32:57.500 and people had a sense that you know if you had a strong like a short strong cup of coffee at some

00:33:04.060 point you know that that might help you in a race or people would say oh i drink coke or i drink

00:33:08.840 mountain dew but i think people are much much more have a much more finely tuned sense of both what

00:33:15.040 caffeine does when it does when it does help them and how best to consume it during a race than you

00:33:20.640 know even that recently yeah i loved how you thought you talked to some of these high-performance

00:33:25.200 athletes and how they would they were very systematic about their caffeine they'd have something

00:33:28.620 before and then along the race they'd have a gel that they would you know throw back and get that

00:33:34.620 so they had it timed perfectly and when they're going to do this yeah i think so and and and i

00:33:39.820 think it makes sense i mean because these are the same people who are very conscientious about

00:33:44.360 everything that they're eating on race day and and in the days prior so why not caffeine and and i

00:33:50.420 think a lot of people find that unseemly because you know there there is at least i don't know sort of

00:33:56.220 a moral distinction between uh yeah maybe they're consuming the same amount of caffeine you and i would

00:34:01.220 be if we're at a coffee shop but they're doing it specifically to enhance their performance

00:34:06.720 and you know that does sort of it it it's an ethical challenge but i think for most people they're

00:34:14.780 they're kind of okay with that all right so for basic you know weekend warrior athletes if you're

00:34:19.660 doing a 5k or you know 15k or you i've also seen research that caffeine can and can help with

00:34:25.700 weightlifting too strength training it actually increases performance there you're looking at about

00:34:30.380 three milligrams per kilogram of body weight and the high end would be like eight or six kilograms

00:34:35.920 yeah i would say six you probably wouldn't want to go beyond six but yeah something like that and uh

00:34:41.600 and you you would want to consume it in in a way that it wasn't gonna you know that it wasn't gonna

00:34:47.540 interfere with your performance in any other way i mean obviously you're not gonna stand there at

00:34:51.680 you know the beginning of a 10k and you know have have a big cup of starbucks probably but you know

00:34:57.520 maybe an hour before to have a strong cup of coffee would probably be be quite helpful all right

00:35:02.740 so we know that caffeine helps us not feel tired it also just makes us feel good generally after you

00:35:09.180 have some were there some surprising benefits of caffeine you came across as you researched this book

00:35:14.060 there are there's some unusual ones and again you know i i mentioned some of these with trepidation

00:35:20.240 because you need i think in all cases we need more research there are some associations

00:35:24.980 with a reduced risk of suicide there's a suggestion that they that people who consume more caffeine

00:35:33.140 have a lower incidence of basal cell skin cancers certainly caffeinated coffee is associated with lower

00:35:39.660 risk of diabetes and maybe associated with a decreased incidence of parkinson's disease and i mean

00:35:46.460 coffee itself it you know there's there's been more research recently you know coffee drinking

00:35:52.760 caffeinated coffee drinking is actually associated now with with a you know reduced risk of mortality

00:35:58.720 people who consume caffeinated coffee have a decreased risk of dying at any particular later age

00:36:07.080 even that's not quite right right yeah i know so now you're not trying to say that oh if you drink

00:36:11.380 coffee you're less of chance of dying no decreases epidemiological studies show a decreased risk of

00:36:17.480 mortality associated with people who are drinking caffeinated coffee and there we have to be careful

00:36:23.360 because we don't know if it's the caffeine or another constituent in the coffee and it may likely

00:36:27.200 or may very probably be another constituent in the coffee it might be polyphenols etc etc but i think

00:36:33.020 all of these health benefits or associations with consuming caffeinated coffee are should go a long way

00:36:40.560 towards easing people's worries if they think they're drinking too much yeah i think drinking full sugar

00:36:45.900 monsters that'll probably give you diabetes and decrease it's not the cat like the caffeine like

00:36:51.180 that would be overridden by the sugar consumption yeah you're absolutely right i mean and and that's

00:36:55.400 it that's sort of the other end of the scale you you uh there there seems to be no health risk

00:37:01.820 associated with consuming caffeinated coffee or tea and there might even be some health benefits

00:37:06.100 but we know there's you know cut and dried health risks with consuming uh full sugar sodas and energy

00:37:11.000 drinks well let's talk about the downsides of caffeine are we talking okay it can help with

00:37:15.120 athletic performance gives you a boost when you're feeling kind of sluggish what are the

00:37:19.240 downsides of caffeine well the the two best known ones and and i think most people are familiar with

00:37:25.140 this is it can disrupt your sleep and uh and i i guess a slightly lesser known one is it can increase

00:37:32.240 anxiety so you know the sleep thing i mean i think a lot we talked about this before a lot of people

00:37:38.580 there are some people who can consume caffeine and just sleep like babies but for a lot of people

00:37:45.280 suffer from insomnia and they consume caffeine daily and there's certainly some subset of that

00:37:50.860 group that would find that if they stopped or reduced their caffeine consumption they would sleep better

00:37:57.060 yeah because like the caffeine like the half-life caffeine is like four to five hours so it stays

00:38:01.060 in your system for at least five hours something like that yeah it's going to be in your system for

00:38:06.040 quite some time and and for people who are more sensitive i mean this is really surprising but

00:38:09.800 even if if their sleep is not acutely disrupted they may have be sleeping lighter uh at night and

00:38:19.040 so this isn't going to be for everyone but this is one of the surprising things that i've found in

00:38:23.640 in talking to people is you know i'd say do you consume caffeine daily yeah do you sleep well no i suffer

00:38:29.940 from insomnia have you ever tried reducing or eliminating caffeine well no and and i think it's

00:38:35.580 it's almost like saying well i'd i'd rather be a caffeine consumer and an insomniac but it's not

00:38:41.620 going to help everybody to reduce their their caffeine consumption but i think if you really do

00:38:45.920 suffer from if you really would like to sleep better it's worth experimenting with with reducing

00:38:51.280 your caffeine consumption all right so sleep insomnia one of the big downsides what's the other big

00:38:56.400 downside uh increasing anxiety anger what what do you think i think increased anxiety is a big one

00:39:01.280 and and little disgust you know again if if you sort of look at the overlap of people who experience

00:39:07.720 anxiety you know either clinical or subclinical and the people who consume caffeine just because most

00:39:13.480 of us consume caffeine you know there's a lot of overlap and i certainly talked to a couple of people

00:39:19.060 in in my reporting and later when the book came out who had been anxious had suffered from anxiety

00:39:25.140 but had never had anyone suggest that they reduce caffeine and did reduce caffeine and found that

00:39:32.000 they felt better so you know again it probably wouldn't help everyone and it's it's it's not a

00:39:38.540 cure-all to quit caffeine but i would say if you're someone who suffers from anxiety and you consume

00:39:44.420 caffeine regularly it would be worth just experimenting you know just just trying to see what what your

00:39:50.700 symptoms are like if you decrease caffeine or eliminate it entirely what is there any research

00:39:56.440 on like what caffeine does with our thinking so i mean i've no i sort of intuitively when i've got a

00:40:00.560 big project i got to do some hard thinking i think well i gotta have a little bit of caffeine

00:40:04.040 it'll help me focus uh is there anything to that sort of natural inclination that i have yeah well i think

00:40:09.760 the the the better research has been on the things that are easy easier to to quantify like reaction time

00:40:16.440 you know and word associations but yeah i think i think most of us feel intuitively that the caffeine

00:40:23.100 can sort of make your your the wheels of your brain spin a little faster and before we move on from

00:40:28.540 health risks uh it's worth noting that the the i the other group that should pay attention to this is

00:40:33.700 people who are either uh pregnant or wanting to become pregnant and who should who are advised to 0.84

00:40:40.660 reduce their caffeine consumption a lot of people say to 200 milligrams or below daily in this

00:40:46.420 this is because of an association between higher amounts of caffeine and the possibility of

00:40:53.080 miscarriage and of of babies that are lower uh lower weight at birth so um so if you're if you're

00:41:01.160 hoping to become pregnant or if you are pregnant it's it's worth moderating your caffeine consumption at

00:41:06.400 least so a lot of people you talk about you just mentioned someone who has a hard time sleeping you say

00:41:11.640 hey why don't you give up your coffee and see what that does people like oh no i can't do that

00:41:16.120 so this idea that you know either caffeine's it's it's a habit or it's an addiction what does the

00:41:22.700 research say about that i think and and i hate to say this because i it's it's really it feels like

00:41:28.480 being a killjoy but i think you have to consider an addictive substance i think one of my sources put

00:41:35.820 it best i think he he characterized it as mildly addictive and i think that's the best way to look at

00:41:40.940 it because it does have the hallmarks of an addictive substance you know uh people feel good

00:41:46.620 when they consume caffeine they feel lousy when they don't consume caffeine your your tolerance

00:41:52.400 increases to it somewhat as you consume it and then for many of us if you stop abruptly consuming

00:42:00.520 caffeine then you're going to have withdrawal symptoms so yeah i i think it's it's hard it's hard

00:42:08.100 not to say it's addictive i think part of the reason people hate that term for this is because

00:42:12.620 it's clearly not an addiction with all of the sort of socially negative components of say opiate

00:42:18.840 addiction but you know in terms of the addictive pattern i think it's all there with caffeine what

00:42:23.880 are the withdrawal symptoms whenever you decide to quit caffeine cold turkey the best known one is is a

00:42:29.580 headache a caffeine headache and that that often will come on on like the second day or or maybe even

00:42:35.800 late on the first day of of you know a cold turkey withdrawal but you know sort of unpleasantness

00:42:43.060 edginess and even muscle aches and pains flu-like muscle aches and pains but i think the best known

00:42:50.020 one is is the the classic sort of caffeine headache and that what's interesting there what's causing that

00:42:54.880 it's because when you consume caffeine it restricts blood flow to your brain and then once you stop

00:43:00.580 like things relax a bit and you're just having like this gush of blood go to your brain and just

00:43:04.320 it hurts when that happens yeah and and this is part of the reason that a lot of you know excedrin

00:43:09.900 and hannacin headache compounds combine caffeine with analgesics and additionally there are some

00:43:16.920 some well-known prescription migraine medications that also include caffeine and i'm curious how did

00:43:23.740 your caffeine consumption change after you researched and wrote this book not dramatically but i i will say

00:43:30.940 i use caffeine more strategically i think i have a a greater awareness of of its sort of more subtle

00:43:36.660 effects so while i i never was someone who who consumed caffeine late into the evening i think i cut

00:43:43.880 off a little bit earlier now and just i i'd say i generally moderated my consumption i still you know

00:43:49.960 i still consume a lot of caffeine in the form of coffee probably you know 300 350 milligrams a day

00:43:56.520 so that would be like you know 24 ounces of good strong coffee but i i would say i probably use it a

00:44:03.160 little more strategically now so yeah maybe that's the advice to take away there don't you don't have to

00:44:07.040 necessarily quit caffeine but be smart about it yeah i'd say be smart be smart about it be be aware

00:44:12.320 of of your camp caffeine consumption and be aware yeah it's it's a drug you know and and because it

00:44:18.540 is a drug and it is affecting you in multiple ways it it's just it just makes sense to pay attention

00:44:24.440 to it well murray this has been a great conversation where can people go to learn more about the book

00:44:28.360 and your work well i've got a website just murraycarpenter.com and the the book is available

00:44:33.440 on um you know pretty much from your local bookstore or anywhere else and i have another book coming out

00:44:40.320 in a year which is specific to coca-cola and health so you can look for that as well fantastic

00:44:46.400 well murray carpenter thanks so much time it's been a pleasure thank you i really appreciate your interest

00:44:50.360 my guest today was murray carpenter he's the author of the book caffeinated it's available

00:44:54.080 on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere you can also find out more information about his work at

00:44:57.580 his website murraycarpenter.com also check out our show notes at awm.is caffeinated where you can find

00:45:02.540 links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic

00:45:04.860 well that wraps up another edition of the awm podcast check out our website at

00:45:15.680 artofmanliness.com where you find our podcast archives well as thousands of articles we've written

00:45:19.560 over the years about pretty much anything you can think of and if you'd like to enjoy ad-free

00:45:22.800 episodes the awm podcast you can do so on stitcher premium head over to stitcher premium.com

00:45:27.040 sign up use code manliness at checkout to get a free month trial once you're signed up download

00:45:30.880 the stitcher app on android or ios and you can start enjoying ad-free episodes of the awm podcast

00:45:34.900 and if you haven't done so already i'd appreciate if you take one minute to give us a review on

00:45:38.360 apple podcast or stitcher whatever podcast platform you use and if you've done that already

00:45:42.420 thank you please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who would think

00:45:45.860 would get something out of it as always thank you for the continued support until next time

00:45:49.100 brett mckay reminding all in the list of the awm podcast but put what you've heard into action

The Art of Manliness - May 06, 2020

#608： How Caffeine Hooks, Hurts, and Helps Us

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript