The Art of Manliness - #611： How a Weekly Marriage Meeting Can Strengthen Your Relationship

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:10.860 Several years ago, Kate and I implemented a practice that has helped strengthen our

00:00:13.900 relationship. It's called a marriage meeting. We got the idea from my guest today. Her name

00:00:17.180 is Marsha Naomi Berger. She's a therapist and the author of Marriage Meetings, 30 Minutes 0.74

00:00:20.700 a Week to the Relationship You've Always Wanted. Marsha and I began our discussion with how

00:00:23.880 she developed the idea of marriage meetings and why couples can benefit from implementing 0.83

00:00:27.300 this habit. We then unpacked the four-part agenda of the marriage meeting, which includes

00:00:30.620 showing appreciation, discussing household chores, planning for good times, and resolving big

00:00:35.140 issues. Marsha explains why you need to do the steps in that particular order. She then

00:00:39.460 addresses the possible objection to meeting with one's spouse in a more structured way

00:00:42.760 and explains why the format of the marriage meeting is more effective than trying to discuss

00:00:46.140 these things on the fly. She then provides tips and insights on how to execute each part

00:00:49.500 of the marriage meeting, including the importance of being specific with your appreciation, following

00:00:53.040 up on to-dos, and scheduling good times both as a couple and as individuals. Marsha then

00:00:57.300 shares advice on what to do if you want to start the marriage meeting practice, but your

00:01:00.420 spouse doesn't, how your meetings can take as little as 15 minutes, and how to best communicate

00:01:04.400 during the meeting so that each partner will feel good about keeping up this game-changing

00:01:07.780 habit. After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash marriage meeting,

00:01:11.480 where you can find a link to an article that we wrote a couple years ago where it goes into

00:01:14.100 detail about marriage meetings. awim.is slash marriage meeting.

00:01:27.300 All right. Marsha Naomi Berger, welcome to the show.

00:01:31.720 Oh, thank you, Brett. I'm glad to be here.

00:01:33.860 So you are a therapist and the author of the book, Marriage Meetings for Lasting Love,

00:01:38.040 30 Minutes a Week to the Relationship You've Always Wanted. And as I was talking to you before

00:01:42.280 we started, I discovered this book, my wife and I discovered this book a couple years ago

00:01:46.280 on Amazon, and we've been implementing the ideas in this book, having a weekly marriage meeting.

00:01:50.720 So I wanted to talk about this because it's been a powerful tool in our marriage.

00:01:53.700 So start off, where did you come up with this idea of a marriage meeting? Is it something you

00:01:57.700 started doing with your own marriage first or working with your clients?

00:02:01.560 Well, the way we first learned about having marriage meetings, my husband and myself,

00:02:06.420 was when we first got married, I was already an experienced couple therapist, and I worked with

00:02:13.500 individuals, couples and families. And I was the go-to expert in agencies where I worked. People

00:02:20.660 who wanted to have training in how to work with couples and families would come to me,

00:02:24.640 and I would give them the tools and techniques. I learned when I got married that it's a lot

00:02:30.840 different to be an objective expert than it is to be actually inside of a marriage. And we were

00:02:38.160 getting along pretty well, but I knew there was room to grow. And we ended up pretty soon,

00:02:43.740 heard about a class that we took for couples. It was called Time for a Better Marriage.

00:02:48.040 And it was a wonderful class. We picked up a lot of ideas. There was one idea in the class

00:02:54.240 that only a couple of minutes was spent on, and that was the idea to have a weekly marriage meeting. 0.54

00:03:00.020 And that was the one thing that we took from it and we continued to implement. We were both

00:03:04.900 comfortable with trying out the idea. And over time, we started refining it and coming up with more

00:03:13.600 like guidelines and just filling it out to make it as effective as possible. And then I started

00:03:20.440 teaching it to people in workshops and in individual therapy where I could coach people

00:03:25.640 through the meetings and eventually started writing the articles. My idea was to spread it around as

00:03:31.300 wide as possible so that as many couples as possible could benefit.

00:03:37.000 And what's powerful about this, it can help good marriages become better,

00:03:40.660 but it can also help marriages that are struggling to become better as well.

00:03:45.060 Yes. And there is a big difference between a marriage that's struggling and a marriage that's

00:03:50.920 already good. Couples who have a fairly healthy relationship to begin with can on their own,

00:03:57.980 read the book, learn the techniques, and have successful marriage meetings because their

00:04:03.880 communication is already respectful. But in the other kind of marriage,

00:04:08.460 maybe, maybe not, they'll be able to do this on their own. If they're not able to do it on their

00:04:13.740 own, then that's a good reason to go to therapy and refine your communication techniques and your

00:04:20.540 general attitude because the idea should be we're in this together. We're not fighting with each other.

00:04:27.040 What we're doing is really putting energy into making the best relationship we can create together as a team.

00:04:35.100 So something you start off in your book talking about is how marriage and family life has changed

00:04:40.900 in the modern times that actually makes a marriage meeting necessary. So what is it about modern life

00:04:46.080 that makes a weekly marriage meeting where you sit down with your spouse and talk things over necessary?

00:04:51.520 Yeah. Marriage has changed so much since, I would say, since the 1960s when roles were pretty clearly

00:04:59.240 defined between men and women before then. Most women used to be housewives or homemakers and men were

00:05:09.200 the ones, the husbands were the ones who brought in the income. All that has changed now. Women now 1.00

00:05:15.160 are working and have a lot more opportunities to develop their professions or their careers.

00:05:22.220 So people are looking for a more egalitarian relationship and they're looking for a relationship

00:05:28.980 that's not based so much on practicality. Of course, we want that, but we're all looking,

00:05:36.720 whether we know it or not, we're all looking for a relationship that's emotionally and spiritually

00:05:43.680 fulfilling as well as satisfying in terms of physical and material needs.

00:05:49.020 And what are some myths that people have about marriage that can make thinking that a marriage

00:05:54.860 meeting wouldn't be useful or productive? A marriage meeting is wonderful to overcome the

00:06:00.540 myth of mind reading that I shouldn't have to ask my spouse for what I want or need. I shouldn't have

00:06:06.900 to tell them how I feel. For some reason, I think the reason is probably that we grew up with fairy tales

00:06:15.540 that made it sound like we should have an effortless happily ever after once we're married. But the

00:06:21.380 ceremony is really just the beginning of a lifelong experience of growing together as people and

00:06:28.600 as couples. And the marriage meeting gives a structure for people to say what they want,

00:06:37.020 how they feel, and also to remember to express appreciation for each other.

00:06:41.060 It might be thought by many people, oh, my spouse knows that I love him or her, appreciate them.

00:06:49.400 But the marriage meeting has a specific time to say just what you like, just what you value about

00:06:55.400 each other. No, and I think too, and you talk about this in the book, I think people have this idea that

00:07:00.020 if a marriage requires work, being intentional about it, then maybe you're not really in love.

00:07:06.360 That's not true. I mean, if for a marriage to work, you actually have to put some effort and be

00:07:10.400 intentional about it.

00:07:12.120 That's true. And that touches on the myth that love is all you need. And we shouldn't have to

00:07:17.060 invest energy in this. It should just all just flow happily ever after. And that's not real life.

00:07:22.960 We're different people. And it would be kind of boring if we were the same. But learning to

00:07:28.620 accept and actually treasure our differences is one of the wonderful things that happens in a good

00:07:34.020 marriage.

00:07:34.740 And also, too, you talk about, I mean, the idea of a marriage meeting, we'll talk about some of the

00:07:38.680 things you do, it's going to bring up some conflict, because you're going to express

00:07:42.500 different opinions about different aspects of the relationship. So some people think, well,

00:07:47.420 conflict's bad. You don't want to have that. But you say, no, actually, conflict's good,

00:07:51.100 because that's how you can find out what's actually a problem. And then you can do something about it

00:07:55.460 once it's there on the open.

00:07:57.600 That's right. And I think when people are thinking that conflict is bad, they're thinking of something

00:08:02.020 that feels like a big fight. But conflict doesn't have to be a big fight. It can be a respectful

00:08:06.660 discussion about different ideas you have about how things should go.

00:08:12.400 All right. So let's talk about the marriage meeting and the structure of it. So big picture

00:08:15.760 overview, before we get into the specific steps, what's involved with a marriage meeting?

00:08:20.680 There are four parts of a marriage meeting, and they go in a logical order that I like to think of

00:08:26.560 flowing like a roller coaster, where the first part, which is appreciation, that brings good energy

00:08:34.000 into the conversation. Each partner takes an uninterrupted turn telling the other exactly

00:08:39.860 what they valued, appreciated about the other during the past week. The second part is chores,

00:08:48.640 or the business part of the meeting, where you coordinate whatever you need to that might have

00:08:55.860 to have done. Like, let's say there's a leaky faucet, and either one of the spouses might decide to fix it, 1.00

00:09:04.460 or they might decide who's going to call a plumber. But things get handled that are like routine

00:09:10.560 activities of daily life that need somebody to take care of. The third part is planning for good times.

00:09:19.520 And most people have probably heard of the idea of having a weekly date.

00:09:22.900 The marriage meeting is a time to make sure that that happens, and that other self-nurturing

00:09:29.100 activities also happen, because it's good to fill up our tank ourselves, and then we have more to

00:09:35.660 give, and we become more attractive to our partners and to the world. The final part is called problems

00:09:41.680 and challenges, and that is when a discussion happens where there may be some strong feelings about

00:09:48.560 an issue, or maybe some kind of transition is happening, and how are we going to handle this?

00:09:54.600 How are we going to prepare for whatever is going to come up next in our life?

00:09:59.180 And as you said, you put this in a specific order. So, it starts off with appreciation,

00:10:02.800 you have that good energy, then you go into the not-so-fun business part of the marriage,

00:10:07.300 and then you go back up to good times where it feels good, and then you go into those challenges.

00:10:11.500 You said it very well, Brett. That's a roller coaster.

00:10:14.380 And we don't have to end up feeling like we're down, though, because challenges, when it's handled

00:10:20.700 well, you have a nice sense of completion and resolution. Maybe you don't finish everything,

00:10:25.980 but you know you've made a good start, and you can continue the discussion the following week at

00:10:30.880 your next marriage meeting. And I do encourage people to thank each other for meeting at the end,

00:10:36.580 and shake hands, hug, whatever makes you feel good.

00:10:40.200 So, before we get into these specific, I want to dig deep into these different parts of it and how it

00:10:43.820 looks. But before we do that, I think someone who's hearing this for the first time, I know when

00:10:47.860 I first read about the concept of a structured marriage meeting, it's like, wow, that seems

00:10:52.740 kind of artificial. And I'll think, well, I can just do those things on the fly. Why don't you

00:10:59.840 think that works, and you need to actually set it aside for a marriage meeting and follow a structure? 0.76

00:11:05.700 Oh, there are a couple of reasons that it's better not to do it on the fly,

00:11:09.100 or try to do it on the fly. The first reason is it's usually not possible to do it on the fly

00:11:15.300 in a healthy way, because one of you may want to talk about some big issue or some little issue,

00:11:23.620 and the other one is involved reading a book or watching TV or on a smartphone doing research,

00:11:29.700 whatever. So, it may not happen if you're thinking it should happen on the fly. And if it does happen,

00:11:37.500 maybe you're not doing it in a way that is as constructive as you can when you're both planning

00:11:46.100 ahead and you're both in the mindset that you're going to have a constructive, respectful discussion.

00:11:52.840 Got it. All right. So, let's talk about, dig deep into these different parts. Let's talk about

00:11:56.060 expressing appreciation. So, what sorts of things are you expressing appreciation in this part of the

00:12:00.720 meeting? Well, you can express appreciation for things that are as small as, thank you for coming

00:12:08.280 to this meeting with me. I really appreciate that you're willing to put a little time into

00:12:13.100 keeping our relationship great. It can be a bigger thing, like, I'm really grateful to you for having

00:12:20.780 listened to me so well and been so understanding when, on Thursday night, I was telling you about

00:12:28.700 this big challenge, this big issue that I was having at work with my boss.

00:12:34.540 So, it sounds like you need to get pretty specific. You can't just be like,

00:12:37.120 thanks for being you. That's not going to work.

00:12:39.680 Yes. Specificity makes a big difference for people. You know it when you've experienced it. I can see it

00:12:46.880 with my clients. I've seen it at people in workshops. I remember one of the guys, when I encouraged his

00:12:53.320 wife to change a global statement, I can't remember what it was, but let's say she said to him,

00:12:58.700 I appreciate how handsome you are. And that was okay. That's nice. However, when she changed it

00:13:07.100 to, I appreciate how handsome you look right now, wearing that blue shirt that matches the blue of

00:13:14.440 your eyes and brings out how great you look.

00:13:18.260 That probably brought a smile to his face.

00:13:20.420 No, that's what happened. He said, I don't know why. The husband said, I don't know why, but it really

00:13:25.720 makes a difference when she's specific. And something that can be challenging with

00:13:29.680 expressing appreciation for people who've been married for a while is like, you probably take

00:13:33.540 your relationship with your partner, your spouse for granted. And so, you're not really paying

00:13:38.080 attention to those things. So, starting off trying to do this, it can be a challenge for folks because

00:13:43.220 they haven't done it before. That's true. Yeah. I would say practice makes perfect.

00:13:48.440 And for some people, it is harder than it is for other people. Some people come from a background

00:13:54.920 where they never saw their parents expressing appreciation to each other. It's just not part

00:14:00.200 of their repertoire. So, it can help for them to say, okay, I know I didn't see it, but I can be

00:14:07.900 different.

00:14:09.020 But one of the nice things about having a marriage meeting and knowing that you're going to spend

00:14:12.140 that first part of it, maybe two, three, four minutes expressing appreciation, is it makes you aware,

00:14:17.780 like, pay attention throughout the week of stuff to express appreciation for? Because you know,

00:14:22.320 you're going to have to do it on Saturday.

00:14:24.140 That is a good point. Yes. Yes. That's a good point. It becomes a habit. When you think ahead

00:14:29.380 about what you're going to say during the marriage meeting, or when you do it spontaneously during

00:14:34.120 your meeting, saying the things that you appreciate about your spouse, your mindset becomes more

00:14:40.360 appreciative just about all the time. I mean, you notice during the week what you like,

00:14:45.660 and you start commenting. I think it is really wonderful if people can do at least one appreciation

00:14:51.480 every day. It's not only for the marriage meeting. It's for a lifetime.

00:14:55.980 And would you recommend people writing stuff down if they need to?

00:14:59.540 For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes people would write it down ahead of time. Other times,

00:15:04.320 spontaneous. It's whatever really works for the people. It's very good to write it down ahead

00:15:08.740 if you're somebody who's going to be saying, hmm, let's see, and not coming right out spontaneously

00:15:17.040 with the appreciative comments. But if you think about it ahead of time, then your spouse is going

00:15:24.340 to be happy that you're able to say right away, not have to cogitate for a while about what you

00:15:30.760 liked about the person. No. And as you said, whenever my wife and I start doing this, it always feels

00:15:36.220 great when we give each other compliments and show appreciation. But I can see it being challenging

00:15:40.680 for some folks receiving the appreciation because that's not something we get very often. So it can

00:15:46.160 be kind of awkward. What do you do? Do you just say, thank you? Is that all you got to do or is it

00:15:50.240 something else you want to do? Oh, yeah. That is another skill that people need to learn if they're

00:15:55.760 not used to receiving appreciation or if they come from a culture where either you're saying that you

00:16:01.800 appreciate something is just not done. And if somebody appreciates you, you might feel like

00:16:09.920 you're bragging if you accept a compliment. So again, being aware of that and deciding that it's

00:16:15.340 really worth changing how I deal with appreciation will make a big difference.

00:16:21.200 All right. So that's appreciation. And like I said, I always feel great when we do this part.

00:16:25.340 And it sets the mood and the vibe for the rest of the meeting, which carries into talking about

00:16:30.540 chores. This is the business part of the family. Something you make a point is that people forget

00:16:35.220 a marriage, a household is like an economic unit. There's a business that needs to be run like that.

00:16:40.160 You got chores you got to do, bills that need to be paid. So what does this part of the meeting look

00:16:45.560 like? Well, as you said, Brett, these are the kind of things you can talk about in chores. Who's going

00:16:52.360 to pay the bills if you don't already have a routine for that? A lot of chores, after people are

00:16:57.840 married for a while, they know who's going to do this and who's going to do that. But if you want

00:17:01.740 to have something different, one of the things that I did was I realized that I was cooking meals

00:17:07.400 every night for my husband and son, for my family. And I thought I would like to have a night off.

00:17:13.860 So I suggested during the chores part of the meeting that we have a cook's night off

00:17:17.420 and somebody else cooks that night. So that's a change. And it could be when repairs are needed in

00:17:26.060 the household. If there is some kind of financial matter, how are we going to get the money to pay

00:17:31.220 for this? Or do we want to do something different investing? Do we want to hire? Oh, this comes up

00:17:38.900 actually with some of my clients. The kind of arguments that people have about chores or frustration

00:17:44.580 the chores aren't getting done. Should we hire a cleaning person or should we figure out a

00:17:49.420 different way to do this? We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:17:55.420 And now back to the show. And I imagine it'd be useful when you're first starting a marriage

00:18:01.280 meeting that each individual person in the marriage prepares individually, like kind of list out the

00:18:07.160 things they have to do and list out things that they think need to get done so that you can talk

00:18:12.140 about it at this portion of the meeting. Yeah, that's a good planning ahead.

00:18:17.220 And yeah, for my wife and I, we mostly use this time to talk about stuff we got to get done around

00:18:21.360 the house. What needs fixing, what we got to do in the garden, the yard, whatever. And also it sounds

00:18:27.340 like this would be a good time to talk about money. Like money is one of those things that causes a lot

00:18:32.620 of stress in a marriage because people don't talk about it. So is this would be the time to talk

00:18:36.860 about money in a marriage? If the money is causing a lot of stress, then the time to talk about money

00:18:43.780 would be during problems and challenges. But if it's a routine money matter, like just announcing

00:18:50.940 that the property tax is due and let's transfer some money from here to there, then it's fine to

00:18:56.640 do it in the chores part of the meeting. So how do you follow up on chores once they're assigned?

00:19:01.960 That can be a problem in a marriage. Yes, because often people think that they have an agreement

00:19:08.060 when they don't have a real agreement. So you can create a chores agreement by having a timeline

00:19:17.560 for when the chore is going to be completed. So if it's going to be done, say, before next week

00:19:23.380 or before a week from today, then it gets reported on in the next marriage meeting that it's been

00:19:29.940 finished. If it's been agreed on, but it hasn't been done, then a report is given. A report sounds

00:19:37.100 like a fancy word, but it's really follow up. Okay, I was going to do this, but this got in the

00:19:42.280 way. So I'll do it by such and such a date. So you can renegotiate the timeline, but you don't have to

00:19:48.100 sit around fretting about why wasn't this done because you're keeping up to date with each other.

00:19:53.440 This is also a good time if you have kids talk about all the stuff that kids have going on. So

00:19:57.840 practices, games, school activities, make sure everyone's on the same page there.

00:20:02.960 Right. Yeah. Coordinating carpools, et cetera.

00:20:06.000 Yeah. My wife and I spend a lot of time doing that, trying to get up to date. Well, not even

00:20:09.580 right now with the pandemic, the kids are home, but when they were going to school, that was a very

00:20:14.780 useful part of this meeting. Okay. And the key here too is to do this in a way where you're not being

00:20:21.080 confrontational, you're being objective, you're trying to ride those good feelings you built up with

00:20:25.580 the appreciation part. So you're not snipping at each other about who's doing more, who's doing

00:20:30.240 less. That's right. Any snipping goes into part four. Okay. Problems and challenges. All right. So

00:20:36.240 yeah, something does come up. Okay. We're going to table that. We'll come back to that in part four.

00:20:40.080 Right. We'll postpone it to problems and challenges. All right. So, but before you get to problems and

00:20:45.100 challenges, there's step three, which is planning for good times. So what are the type of things we're

00:20:49.240 planning here? Weekly date, activities that you do individually, times you want to get together

00:20:57.000 with family members or friends. It's basically about recharging of batteries as a couple and also

00:21:02.840 as individuals. No, you go into detail about the importance of having a date night and this is the

00:21:09.180 time you would plan that. Right. And some people confuse date night with marriage meeting. And I say,

00:21:16.340 you know, you want to have your date night, just a nice time. Like when you're recording,

00:21:23.460 when you're first going out and you are kind of daydreaming out loud as much as you want to,

00:21:30.180 just enjoying whatever you're doing in each other's company. And that's totally separate,

00:21:34.800 different time from when you have your marriage meeting.

00:21:37.500 Oh, so don't try. So if you're going out to eat, don't try to have

00:21:40.880 your marriage meeting during your dinner date for your date night.

00:21:44.400 Correct. Okay. And then this is also the time you're planning vacations activities to do with

00:21:48.780 your... Yes. Yes. That's a good point. Yeah. Vacations. And ideally you get to take some

00:21:55.140 vacations, just the two of you. And then there are the family vacations. And for some people,

00:22:01.820 vacations as an individual, if they have different interests.

00:22:04.380 I thought this is like the whole, the idea that you need to sort of plan for good times for

00:22:08.200 individuals. This has been very useful with my wife and I, because yeah, when you get married,

00:22:13.180 you kind of forget that part of your life, but that's what makes you interesting to your spouse.

00:22:18.700 Right. Yeah. Maybe that's another myth of the togetherness has to be happening all the time.

00:22:25.140 Yeah. So, I mean, something my wife and I do is like, hey, what do you got going on this week

00:22:28.800 that's fun for you?

00:22:30.560 Very nice.

00:22:31.560 That's what it is. And so, and sometimes, I mean, sometimes I don't have anything because,

00:22:34.620 you know, nothing's going on, but I'd say, hey, this week I'd like to do this with my friends.

00:22:39.240 And she's like, okay, great. And then she has her thing, which is great about this because I think

00:22:43.180 there's a lot of, I've seen a lot of conflict in marriages where, you know, a wife gets resentful 1.00

00:22:47.640 that the husband's out doing something with his buds or the husband's getting resentful with the

00:22:51.600 wife's out. And it's probably because none of them, they never communicated what they planned on doing.

00:22:56.660 And are they making sure to have time for a weekly date for just the two of them to nurture

00:23:01.580 their relationship with each other?

00:23:03.660 Right. So, yeah, I think this can be another powerful tool to strengthen your marriage. And again,

00:23:08.380 it's fun. It's fun to talk about doing fun stuff together individually and as a family.

00:23:13.260 Yes. When you do these things for yourself, you are filling, it's like filling up your tank

00:23:17.880 with positive energy. And then you're bringing it into your relationship because you're a happy

00:23:22.220 person who is exuding good feelings.

00:23:25.180 All right. So, you've planned for good times, moving into the problems and challenges where

00:23:29.860 we've talked about a lot of things get pushed into there. So, like, what are, so these are,

00:23:33.620 are these big problems and challenges that we're discussing here?

00:23:36.920 They can be little ones and they can be big ones.

00:23:39.660 Okay. So, what's an example of like a little problems and challenges?

00:23:42.300 A little one would be, and I do encourage people when they're starting to have marriage meetings,

00:23:49.180 start with little ones if you're doing the meetings on your own because your goal is to

00:23:53.300 have a successful meeting and feel really good about the process so that you'll want to have

00:23:59.560 another meeting next week and so on until you get used to the process. Because as you mentioned

00:24:05.360 earlier, Brett, it does feel awkward at first to be communicating within this kind of a structure

00:24:12.100 rather than just free flowing or on the fly. So, your question about a little challenge you might

00:24:19.460 start with is one partner says to the other, I'm really struggling trying to lose weight. It would

00:24:26.860 help me out if you would be willing to hide the potato chips or whatever junk food you might want

00:24:31.500 to bring into the house or put it somewhere where I don't see it. Would you be willing, would you

00:24:36.980 be willing to do that? I'd really appreciate it.

00:24:41.180 I think that's interesting. So, you're not only just stating the problem that you're having, but you're

00:24:44.800 also asking for help at the same time.

00:24:47.520 Right. Help that's easy to give.

00:24:50.260 All right. And what would be an example of a bigger challenge that you would eventually work

00:24:53.760 your way up to if you needed to?

00:24:54.980 Well, the major ones are money for a lot of people, sex, parenting differences,

00:25:03.520 and relationships with in-laws or other family members.

00:25:08.580 Okay. And I mean, I imagine you're not going to be able to solve those big ones in a single

00:25:13.440 marriage meeting.

00:25:15.120 Right. But the important thing is to learn how to feel okay communicating about them,

00:25:21.080 talking to each other about them in a fairly relaxed kind of atmosphere and using good

00:25:28.780 communication skills that are respectful.

00:25:31.380 And so, speaking, what are some skills that people need to do to be able to do this part

00:25:35.720 of a marriage meeting effectively?

00:25:38.240 These are good skills for other parts of a marriage meeting also, especially I statements,

00:25:43.660 like when you're expressing appreciation or when you're bringing up a challenge, you could

00:25:49.400 say, I appreciate rather than you look good in this. You know what I mean? That's a you

00:25:56.280 statement. And when you're bringing up a challenge, you say, I am concerned about, or I'd like to

00:26:03.700 talk about, or I'd like to improve how I'm getting along with so-and-so. Or I'm talking about like,

00:26:12.560 I made it easy about the potato chips, the I statement. I'm trying to lose weight

00:26:16.800 when we get into the heavier challenges. It's still I statements. And another skill is active

00:26:22.420 listening. I have three chapters in my book about exactly how to use seven different positive

00:26:29.480 communication skills. So, I statements are one. Active listening is another one where you really

00:26:35.280 let the other person say what they have to say without interrupting. And then reflect back what

00:26:41.540 you've heard. Check it out. Did I get it right? And it goes forth from there with the end result that

00:26:49.540 both people have a chance to be the listener and the speaker. And both people feel like their position

00:26:56.200 is understood. And what most people really want more than winning or being right is to feel understood by

00:27:04.600 their partner. So, active listening is really, really important. And it's not as easy to do

00:27:09.820 as it sounds if we're used to being in a position of wanting to defend our position rather than

00:27:18.940 say it, but here are the other persons also. Another skill is using your nonverbal communication

00:27:28.480 effectively. Because believe it or not, only 7% of what's heard in relationship type conversations

00:27:36.700 consists of the words that are said. Only 7% of our total communication is the words. The rest is

00:27:45.860 body language. Crossing arms, making good eye contact, smiling.

00:27:52.300 That can make a big difference. So, I mean, if you're on your smartphone while your wife is telling 0.97

00:27:56.660 her her issue, that's probably not going to, that's not good.

00:27:59.320 Right. We want to put all those devices away during the marriage meeting.

00:28:03.540 Well, yeah. Speaking of, like something my wife and I do with our marriage meeting is

00:28:07.560 when we start the appreciation, devices go away, computers, smartphones. And then when

00:28:12.320 the chores section comes, we bring them back out because that's where we have our calendaring

00:28:17.220 tools. And so, we'll have there, talk about, we have like a to-do list that we share and

00:28:21.120 here's what we're going to do. And then for the plan for good times, still the devices are

00:28:24.760 out so that we can plan for those good times, calendar it. But then once we get to problems

00:28:28.060 and challenges, devices go away and we're back to just talking and focusing on each

00:28:33.040 other.

00:28:33.900 Right. That makes a lot of sense the way you're doing it. Yeah. And that is a guideline for

00:28:38.440 the meetings to have a system where you do record what you agree to do, whether it's a

00:28:45.340 chore or a date, where you're going to go, when you're going to go, when something will

00:28:49.800 get done. Because it's so easy to forget to do things if there's no reminder.

00:28:55.080 And so, going back to the problems and challenges, I think the powerful thing here is that you're

00:29:00.380 probably not going to resolve these issues in a single meeting, but you got it out there

00:29:05.540 and people will probably feel understood. And that can go a long way into resolving the

00:29:11.060 issue or problem in the long run.

00:29:13.420 Exactly. Because what most problems boil down to are that somebody doesn't feel valued or

00:29:21.780 appreciated. And when they feel understood and listened to, it just changes the whole

00:29:26.560 atmosphere.

00:29:28.140 Changes the tenor. And as you said, with the problems and challenges, even though you were

00:29:31.600 going to have some conflict there, but you can resolve it or handle it in a productive

00:29:35.980 way. You don't want to end on a negative note. You want to end on a positive note with this

00:29:39.860 part. Say, hey, thanks for doing this. I really appreciate it. And then end the meeting

00:29:43.040 that way.

00:29:44.360 Yes. That's really important.

00:29:45.760 So, we talked about, I think, a good overview of the meeting, what's involved. How long should

00:29:51.740 this take?

00:29:53.440 The very maximum should be 45 minutes. Sometimes people, when they first start having the meetings,

00:29:59.560 they have this whole backlog of issues that they want to talk about. And it's not productive

00:30:05.080 when people get tired. That was something that my husband and I discovered when we first

00:30:09.580 started the meeting, not just to limit the time. We were pretty good at that. But we would

00:30:15.920 have the meeting sometimes really late at night, and we'd get tired and cranky and not very

00:30:20.680 constructive. So, my husband actually came up with the idea that we should have the meeting

00:30:25.060 early enough that we're both alert and feeling positive. So, that's another guideline is to

00:30:31.880 make sure that when you have the meeting, you're feeling alert, you're not tired, and you're

00:30:36.000 sober, and really bringing your best self to the meeting.

00:30:38.900 All right. So, no more than 45 minutes. Yeah. Our meetings last like 15 to 20 minutes,

00:30:44.860 usually sometimes longer if we're planning a vacation or dealing with something like

00:30:48.320 got a lot of chores. But yeah, no more than 30 minutes.

00:30:51.640 Yeah. Usually, no more than 30 is true for us also. And I think that's for most people,

00:30:58.040 once you get used to the structure of the meeting and you are prepared for what you're going to

00:31:02.640 talk about, ours are also often are 15 to 20 minutes.

00:31:07.560 But in order to keep them 15 to 20 minutes, in order for these things to be effective,

00:31:12.180 you got to do them weekly. Exactly.

00:31:13.440 Like, that's where the power is at.

00:31:15.340 I think so. Some people don't do them weekly and they're still happy. But I think for most people,

00:31:21.120 weekly is good. It's easy for things to build up. And if misunderstandings are allowed to continue,

00:31:26.280 then grudges can build. So, it's just wonderful to clear it up every week.

00:31:30.540 All right. So, let's say someone's listening to this and they're like, I want to do this

00:31:34.340 with my spouse. So, they present the idea. Because I've heard this happening. The guy reads the book,

00:31:41.760 I want to do this. But then their wife's like, that sounds dumb. It's like, what do you do if 0.99

00:31:45.480 one person in the marriage doesn't want to take part in this?

00:31:47.720 The first thing to do is to recognize why the person doesn't want to do it, what's getting in

00:31:54.260 the way. And often what's getting in the way is that the person is afraid that he or she is going

00:31:59.940 to get a long list of demands to do this and that and do it differently. Or they're afraid they're going

00:32:06.840 to be criticized. It'll be just a blame thing. And why should they subject themselves to that?

00:32:12.720 So, it's important to assure the person that this is not what happens in the meeting,

00:32:18.180 that it's to be constructive and it's a time that both of them will get to feel valued and appreciated

00:32:26.860 and they will get to clear up any misunderstandings that happen and that the marriage meetings actually

00:32:34.980 promote more intimacy and better teamwork and respectful resolution of the kind of challenges

00:32:43.660 that come up in any relationship. So, that's one thing. Another thing is to try for just one

00:32:51.900 meeting. Don't say, let's start doing this for the rest of our lives every week because that could

00:32:56.280 sound pretty overwhelming if somebody's afraid in the first place. So, how about let's just try one

00:33:01.140 meeting, okay? And if the person agrees, be sure to load up on appreciation in that first meeting and

00:33:08.120 remember the challenge should be an easy one that the person will be happy to help with and do plan

00:33:14.880 a date. And again, make the chores simple too. There shouldn't be a lot of chores in one meeting.

00:33:21.440 No, maybe two, three, but not a whole long to-do list because think about what really needs to be done

00:33:28.360 in the next week. And for the challenges, also one challenge, maybe two at the most. And again,

00:33:36.960 really, really important to make it easy and learn how to use the constructive communication skills,

00:33:43.560 preferably before you have your first meeting.

00:33:46.280 And I mean, have you seen any like the gender dynamics here? Do you see like wives really

00:33:51.120 appreciating this? Like when a husband like, hey, I want to do this. I feel like it's oftentimes

00:33:54.720 wives feel like they're dragging their husbands to get stuff done or do this type of things. 1.00

00:33:59.100 Does it really mean a lot to a wife when their husband's like, hey, I want to do this thing to

00:34:02.640 make our marriage better?

00:34:04.120 Oh, I think it means a lot to the wives to have their husbands want to do it. And it can mean a

00:34:09.580 lot to a husband to have a wife who wants to do it too. It is usually the husband that's dragging

00:34:14.200 feet a little bit at the beginning, but sometimes it's the wife, especially if she's not comfortable

00:34:19.880 talking about her feelings or she's kind of passive about saying what she wants. So it turns

00:34:27.940 out that both people will benefit. Husbands are especially appreciative marriage meetings in

00:34:34.160 general because the husbands tend to hear a lot from their wives and they may not feel comfortable

00:34:42.580 entering the discussion with as much enthusiasm and as many words as the wife. But the marriage

00:34:51.000 meeting level is the playing field. And I encourage whoever is the less verbal person in the relationship

00:34:58.460 to take the lead in the meetings, to announce each part of the meeting and to speak first about what

00:35:04.200 they want to talk about in each part of the meeting, because that gives that person a share of

00:35:08.480 ownership. And men really tend to like the structure of the meeting once they get into it, because it

00:35:16.020 does give them a voice that they might have felt was lacking before. I like that. Well, Marcia, this

00:35:24.200 has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:35:28.220 They can learn more about my work on my website, which is marriage meetings with an S on the end,

00:35:34.900 marriage meetings dot com. And if they want to get my book, it's on Amazon and Barnes and Noble,

00:35:43.000 and it may be in a local bookstore. It's in a lot of libraries. And oh, and it comes in an audio

00:35:49.320 version. Now, I just recently had an audio book made of my book so people can listen while they're

00:35:57.120 commuting or doing things at home. If they're not so interested or if they don't have the time to read,

00:36:03.860 they can listen. Fantastic. Well, Marcia Naomi Berger, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:36:08.580 It's been my pleasure, too. Thank you very much, Brett.

00:36:11.680 My guest today was Marcia Naomi Berger. She's the author of the book Marriage Meetings for Lasting

00:36:15.180 Love. It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find out more information about

00:36:18.720 her work at our website, MarciaNaomiBerger.com. Also, check out our show notes at

00:36:22.440 aom.is slash marriage meetings, where you can find links to resources where you delve deeper in this topic.

00:36:33.860 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast. Check out our website at

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00:37:01.280 we get something out of it. As always, thank you for the continued support. Until next time,

00:37:04.280 this is Brett McKay, reminding you not only to listen to the AOM Podcast, but put what you've

00:37:07.420 heard into action.

The Art of Manliness - May 18, 2020

#611： How a Weekly Marriage Meeting Can Strengthen Your Relationship

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