The Art of Manliness - #612： Grillmaster Secrets for Flame-Cooked Perfection

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast it's almost

00:00:11.460 summer you know what that means grilling season is upon us to help us sure that you have your

00:00:15.400 best grilling season ever today i talked to matt moore aom's resident food writer and the author

00:00:19.460 of cereal griller grill master secrets for flame cook perfection we began our conversation

00:00:23.620 discussing matt's trips around the country to glean the best stories and tips from our nation's

00:00:27.480 foremost grill masters we first unpacked why the maillard reaction is so important to creating

00:00:31.840 delicious brown food and how to ensure you get that effect when you grill from there we dive into

00:00:35.960 more of the secrets of better grilling including the pros and cons of different types of fuels and

00:00:39.800 grill types and the essential tools to have on hand when making flame cooked grub matt then offers his

00:00:44.240 surprising take on the best way to grill a burger explains how to grill the perfect steak cooked

00:00:48.760 chicken so doesn't dry out and fire up fish without it falling apart we enter a discussion with matt's

00:00:53.200 grilled mouthwatering alternative to the traditional peach cobbler is sounds really really good you'll

00:00:57.980 be ready to fire up the grill after listing the show after it's over check out our show notes at

00:01:01.460 aom.is slash cereal griller matt joins me now via clearcast.io

00:01:06.080 all right mr matt moore welcome back to the show thanks so much for having me brett so you are aom's

00:01:20.420 resident food writer i'm sure people who've been following the site have seen your your food content

00:01:25.460 you put in putting out for us for a couple years and i mean man it's i think coming like on 10 years

00:01:29.400 probably like 10 years yeah 10 years but you got a new book out cereal griller grill master secrets

00:01:35.780 for flame cook perfection we're about to start the grilling season here about to kick it off so i want

00:01:41.200 to make this episode sort of the guide to the to the grilling season so you have the best grilling

00:01:45.260 season ever but before we get to the tips and tricks of how to be a grill master what i love

00:01:50.780 about your cookbooks that you've done in the past is that you add these stories you you hop into your

00:01:55.280 cessna you're you got your pilot's license you're a cool guy you're filling every fantasy that most

00:02:00.880 dudes have and you fly around the country and you go and you visit people who who cook for a living

00:02:06.280 and are really good at what they do and they're passionate about what they do and get their story but

00:02:11.520 also tips from them so tell us before we get to the art sort of the practical how-to stuff tell us

00:02:16.820 about some of the people that you've visited to write this book yeah i mean thank you you make me

00:02:22.320 sound cooler than i really am i promise it's not that exciting in real life but it looks good in

00:02:26.900 in print so um you know we traveled 10 000 miles for cereal griller which was quite different than the

00:02:34.140 book i had done prior which was called the south's best butts that we talked about and it is a cookbook

00:02:39.160 not a calendar there we were just traveling the barbecue belt but the cool thing about grilling

00:02:43.520 is that it really expands the horizon so it doesn't matter where you come from your race your creed your

00:02:49.160 cuisine your culture everybody really enjoys the art of grilling so you know just some of my favorites

00:02:55.380 are folks like meathead out of chicago who's known throughout the barbecue and grilling world he's uh

00:03:00.680 just a character he's lived nine different lives he was a wine critic at one point he runs one of the

00:03:05.960 more successful online sites and he's really just a scientist when it comes to food and spending a

00:03:10.980 day with him was was really unique some of the science that he has behind grilling and barbecue

00:03:15.620 at the same time we worked with some of the country's best chefs i think you know i've always

00:03:20.860 had as a food writer really the aptitude to make sure that all of my writing is speaking to

00:03:25.840 folks that are maybe just starting out and that's why i'm excited to kind of get into some details of

00:03:30.260 grilling with you today but we had two of the last james beard chefs outstanding chefs and michael

00:03:35.640 solomanoff up in philadelphia and ashley christensen and raleigh and for those that are outside the food

00:03:41.500 world that's kind of like becoming the michael jordan if you will of cooking each year they announce

00:03:46.340 essentially the best chef in america so both of those are focused in it as well and there's also just

00:03:52.220 incredible experiences there's a gentleman by the name of jerry baird who is one of the last

00:03:56.900 chuck wagon cooks and if you're thinking in your mind about being out on the open texas plains of

00:04:02.940 hill country with a chuck wagon and cooking in dutch ovens that's exactly what we did and a guy like

00:04:08.320 jerry is just one of those special souls when you get to spend an afternoon with him and glean his

00:04:12.400 knowledge and eat his food and obviously hear all of his stories it's just those types of memories

00:04:17.400 that i hope people will thumb through read the book get some inspiration for recipes and especially now

00:04:22.820 bring them a lot of joy by kind of coming on that road trip with me yeah the chuck master guy that was

00:04:28.040 one of my favorite stories it's like man there's still chuck master like he started a whole association

00:04:32.260 for chuck wagon yeah yeah it's uh was a dying art until he became involved and i think that's one of

00:04:38.620 the things we always talk about here on art of manliness is is using your passions to to create

00:04:43.360 opportunities and he's certainly somebody who has taken a dying art and now spread it beyond just the

00:04:48.520 united states but europe and canada and everywhere in between so super cool and one of the things that

00:04:53.500 the story that your stories highlight is how universal grilling is i mean pretty much as you

00:04:58.500 said early pretty much every culture has some sort of grilling culture within their food culture and i

00:05:05.120 mean you highlight it i mean for one you highlight a lot of greek guys greeks love grilled meat yeah just

00:05:11.220 down the street where i live in in east nashville is a place called greco which is kind of an athenian

00:05:16.900 style greek street food ambiance and i think a lot of americans are kind of introduced to greek food

00:05:23.420 from you know family-run restaurants where they're still using that kind of shaving off the cone euro

00:05:29.040 that's usually processed but they're actually doing it in true kebab and suvaki style so really unique

00:05:35.140 recipes there and then kind of a similar cuisine that we also focus on is michael solomon off the the

00:05:40.020 james beard winter up in philadelphia he runs a place called zahav which is israeli food which

00:05:45.020 shares a lot of commonalities and you know that restaurant was literally named the best restaurant

00:05:50.000 in america so it's a lot of fun to have some some recipes that are still applicable and easy for

00:05:55.160 the everyday person to pull off at home all right so let's get into how to make this the best grilling

00:06:01.340 season ever but before we do let's talk about the science of grilling what is it what's going on with

00:06:06.360 grilled meat that makes it taste so dang good yeah you know after coming on the heels of writing a

00:06:12.780 barbecue book a pit master told me one time that in barbecue nothing good happens above 300 degrees

00:06:21.000 it was similar to what a college professor told me one time that nothing good happens after

00:06:25.600 2 a.m but in barbecue and you know grilling specifically the idea of everything happening

00:06:32.580 good above 300 degrees is actually scientifically described by a reaction that a french chemist came

00:06:38.820 up with known as the maillard reaction where you have the natural amino acids and enzymes it doesn't

00:06:45.660 just limit itself to to proteins but vegetables and fruits even toasted bread or my favorite making beer

00:06:52.260 everything good is is occurring at that moment and so you know throughout the book we spent a lot of time

00:06:57.680 talking about tips and tricks to always make sure that you're allowing that reaction to occur now if

00:07:03.840 we're already flying above people's head just remember this brown food is good food it creates that

00:07:09.980 savory umami flavor that we all love from grilling specifically and so that's uh what we're always

00:07:16.760 seeking to happen and that typically is occurring anywhere that you're cooking above that 300 degree marker

00:07:21.620 all right but the other thing too to make that to get that you want high heat but you also want low

00:07:26.800 low moisture to get that nice reaction as well right yeah you know when we talk about cooking as we have

00:07:32.220 over the last decade you know we we do have recipes on the site that talk about poaching or steaming but

00:07:38.580 in this instance we really want to get rid of the moisture because the moisture would prevent

00:07:42.780 that reaction from occurring so in an instance where i might be cooking a nice piece of fish i want to

00:07:48.080 make sure that i pat it dry even a steak even a vegetable because if there's too much moisture

00:07:52.260 moisture on whatever i'm putting on that grill essentially those first few minutes where we're

00:07:56.880 able to create that high heat sear we're eliminating that opportunity from happening because we've got

00:08:02.100 too much moisture and same thing that we've talked about earlier like with a great kebab you know one

00:08:06.560 big mistake that people make is overcrowding that skewer or putting too many items on the grill to start

00:08:12.080 and again you're lowering that temperature down and you're not allowing that mired reaction to occur

00:08:15.980 and that's why you also don't want to cook frozen meat right because you're just it's just moisture

00:08:20.980 there and like that first couple i don't know probably 10 20 minutes you're just melting the ice

00:08:25.580 and it's just getting into the meat yeah and you're just not getting a consistent cook either right you

00:08:30.140 know the outside versus the inside and one of the things i loved a quick tidbit is you see a lot of

00:08:35.500 recipes that say you know bring meat up to room temperature and i was careful not to do that

00:08:40.460 because you could take a steak that's one inch thick and pull it out of your refrigerator and

00:08:46.000 eight hours later if you put a digital meat thermometer into the middle of it it wouldn't

00:08:50.140 be a 68 to 70 degrees it's still probably you know 45 50 degrees but the idea of pulling meats out of

00:08:56.820 out of a cool zone whether that's the fridge or a cooler if you're outdoors cooking you just want to

00:09:01.760 take that initial chill off like you said so that you're not immediately shocking the grill so that's one of

00:09:07.280 the other big tips that we play out throughout the book all right so high heat low moisture

00:09:11.340 let's talk about heat sources for grilling because there's a whole bunch of different options out

00:09:15.740 there walk us through them and the pros and cons of each one and which one do you recommend for a rank

00:09:20.560 beginner yeah i mean for me you know the the original was just hardwoods obviously things like

00:09:26.980 hickory and mesquite and that's something that you would typically burn down away from your grill maybe

00:09:32.700 it's a fire pit we saw it done in the book in a barrel and you take those coals and you put them

00:09:38.480 you know obviously underneath your grate so that you can cook food and you know that's a that's a

00:09:42.940 two-step process it can be timely but i think the ambiance of it and just the romanticism of actually

00:09:48.860 burning a fire and using those coals is really unique speaking of wood you know one of the things

00:09:54.040 that's really come in play from a technological standpoint is the idea of pellet grilling so

00:09:58.480 using actual wood pellets to to cook on on a grill that's uh using electricity and a fan to cook that

00:10:06.040 at the right temperature i love those for folks that are wanting to have really precise temperature

00:10:10.780 control kind of a set it and forget it and get that good wood flavor it's it's a no-brainer they

00:10:15.940 are a little bit expensive they do rely on electricity and then the problem that i find most often is that

00:10:21.700 they just don't get above really 400 degrees so if i'm really trying to get that beautiful sear on a

00:10:27.100 steak the pellet grill can fall short i think most of us are probably most familiar with you know

00:10:32.600 charcoal comes really in two forms most folks prefer a lump charcoal which is just more of a natural

00:10:39.280 wood piece that comes in multiple sizes they're just there's different qualities it produces less

00:10:44.420 ash and it's one of those things that you can continue to reuse and you see those in a lot of the

00:10:48.740 egg style cookers that are out there but even some experts that we interviewed in the book

00:10:53.220 prefer briquettes you know meathead out of chicago who's one of the the most widely known experts in

00:10:59.440 barbecue really prefers the briquette even though it produces a little bit more ash what he likes about

00:11:04.920 it is if i were to write a recipe and i told you to you know create 12 briquettes we can actually

00:11:10.540 really consistently measure the heat because those are uniform in size and we're going to get really

00:11:16.420 good results when it comes to having consistency with a recipe whereas lump charcoal comes in you

00:11:23.140 might have a piece that's you know two inches you might have one that's six inches so you're going

00:11:27.500 to get kind of different burn temperatures from using lump of course we do have to address the fact

00:11:33.160 that about 75 percent of americans own a gas grill so i think convenience is king when it comes to

00:11:40.280 using that that source when it comes to grilling and and one of the cool things we do in the book is we

00:11:45.380 actually give instructions for every single recipe about whether you're using a gas grill or you're using a

00:11:50.680 charcoal or wood style setup and to me my goal is just to get more people grilling obviously if you're

00:11:55.820 using gas you're sacrificing from some of the flavor that you get from wood and charcoal but at the same

00:12:01.180 time you're picking up a whole lot of convenience and then you know finally during my bachelor years

00:12:05.660 lived in some apartment complexes that wouldn't allow me to have access to charcoal gas or wood so

00:12:11.480 electric grills you know you can utilize a cast iron pan on the stovetop we've talked a lot about that

00:12:17.320 at art of manliness over the years electric style grills that allow you to do that and even one of

00:12:22.460 the cool things that's come on the market is an infrared grill which is using electricity and

00:12:27.140 infrared technology that's smokeless that allows you to still kind of get that ambiance and flavor

00:12:31.740 as well so a whole lot of options out there i'm not one to discriminate i like i said i just want to get

00:12:37.000 you grilling yeah i've got i've got a gas grill and i just like because i can just walk out whenever

00:12:41.700 and just get it going in like seconds literally but you also highlight tricks the little hacks you

00:12:48.200 can do to get a you know that sort of smoky flavor that you would with a charcoal or wood

00:12:52.320 with a gas grill it's not going to be exactly the same but it gives a bit of flavor yeah and you know

00:12:58.620 any grocery store today where you're picking up your charcoal you're going to find wood chips right

00:13:02.360 next to it so the concept is to to make a foil packet with those you know make a few holes in it put

00:13:08.060 some chips in there and put that on the grill right when you're you're you're allowing those

00:13:12.420 that steak or whatever you're wanting that piece of chicken to have some of that smoke flavor

00:13:16.020 and just allow it to build up that smoke i typically like to pull it off after maybe five to ten minutes

00:13:21.880 so you don't get a burn flavor from those chips but uh it's one of the ways to impart some smoke

00:13:26.500 flavor and and also enjoy the convenience of gas grilling all right so we've talked about the

00:13:30.520 different heat sources wood charcoal and gas and electricity the other thing that there's a lot of

00:13:37.120 choices now these days are the type of grill you use i mean back in the day when we were kids it

00:13:41.500 was like weber grill that was it now you go to the hardware store and there's just whole there's eggs

00:13:48.380 green eggs the gas the infrared there's the different types of charcoal so walk us through the different

00:13:53.380 types of grills and which one like what do they do the pros and cons etc yeah i mean you know the most

00:14:00.320 common grill that you're going to find whether it's a weber style kettle grill or even a gas grill

00:14:05.660 is what i would refer to as a closed setup and the idea is that you actually have a lid so you're able

00:14:11.760 to grill with the lid off for an open style grill and then you can put that lid on top and the the

00:14:18.160 concept there is that you're trapping heat so that you can vect the heat and it's the same concept if i

00:14:23.060 were to have a cast iron grill pan on my stove top that would be an open setup but if i'm putting it

00:14:28.540 into the oven it's sort of like me closing my grill to trap that heat there are just open style grills

00:14:34.860 one of my favorites is a lodge cast iron sportsman grill it's made completely of cast iron and it's

00:14:40.400 just a an open setup so you know we can't trap the heat by closing the lid so oftentimes you see that

00:14:47.900 in cuisines like middle eastern cuisines or asian cuisines where you are cooking skewers that you don't

00:14:53.380 have to trap the heat they're smaller sizes so that they can cook up rather quickly so that's what

00:14:58.100 we could would consider more of an open style setup and then as you mentioned earlier kind of the ed

00:15:03.040 style setup the kamado style as it's referred to we were just hit here by the uh the tornado in

00:15:08.740 nashville in march and i have a golden's cast iron kamado grill it weighs i think brett like 800 pounds

00:15:15.680 they dropped it off on a flatbed so wow that was one of the things in my backyard that was not destroyed

00:15:20.420 and uh you know that's where we're using either cast iron or ceramic to create a really well

00:15:27.240 insulated grill so that you can cook either at high heat temperatures or low and slow if you're

00:15:32.760 looking to do more of a barbecue style cooking and then we have what we consider you know kind of

00:15:37.800 hybrid setups you could go out right now and buy a gas grill that can also function as a charcoal grill

00:15:43.360 so for you brett during a busy weekday if you just want to fire up the gas grill super convenient but

00:15:48.760 on the weekend if you might want to have a little more of that charcoal flavor uh those are really

00:15:52.480 solid options to give folks as much access as possible to uh to meet their grilling needs

00:15:57.100 yeah i know i remember like when the egg grill started becoming really popular a couple years ago

00:16:01.500 people really started nerding out on those they got really geeky with them oh yeah i mean they call

00:16:07.280 them egg heads obviously and there's uh several different brands that are out there and i think they

00:16:12.380 just provide a lot of versatility i think pellet grills would probably come on the market because

00:16:16.640 they're even easier uh obviously with the the egg style grill you're having to still light the

00:16:20.700 charcoal you're having to open the vents and control temperature even though it's very well

00:16:24.560 insulated whereas the pellet grill you just turn a knob like i said and the fan is going to fuel those

00:16:30.980 pellets into making sure that that temperature is always right so it's just depending on what your

00:16:35.540 style is and and what you're looking to do they all offer different levels of convenience but you

00:16:40.880 know they also give kind of different variances when you're really looking for what you want to do

00:16:45.520 i i love to have access and control the temperature if i were to just set it and forget it my wife

00:16:50.500 would make me be off doing other things because she would know it's that easy i've convinced her

00:16:54.820 that what i'm doing is extremely difficult and it takes a lot of work well you mentioned the vents

00:16:59.860 on the weber grill those are things that have always befuddled me i'm like what am i supposed to

00:17:03.900 do with these when do i leave them open partially open when do i close them so because there's there's

00:17:09.260 some on the top and then there's some on the bottom it's like when what walk is when do you

00:17:13.800 keep those open or closed yeah and so vents and dampeners kind of mutually exclusive in that

00:17:19.640 scenario if you're reading instructions you know the idea is if i were to take a traditional weber

00:17:24.860 kettle grill i want to open that bottom vent completely as i'm lighting my charcoal if i were

00:17:29.760 lighting it in the grill using maybe a charcoal chimney or one of those nifty tools that you can

00:17:34.680 actually just kind of turbo light charcoal you just stick it in there and it's got a high heater and

00:17:39.860 a fan to get it started quickly so we want to open those vents because what allows fire to live

00:17:46.660 is is oxygen so the more air that we're giving it especially when we're lighting a grill we want

00:17:52.040 to have as much air as possible so those vents on the bottom are completely open as you start to close

00:17:57.100 the grill you know one of the things if you're cooking a steak and you really want to trap as much

00:18:01.720 heat as possible but to keep the oxygen flowing you would open both the bottom completely open and the

00:18:07.440 top and i like to tell people that the bottom temperature control that's where you're making

00:18:13.160 decisions about do i want this fire to be 300 degrees or 400 degrees so you're making larger

00:18:20.020 adjustments because that's where the the airflow is is first kind of entering in and then it's coming

00:18:24.740 up through the food source and then exiting through the top and the top vent is where we're making

00:18:30.700 decisions between 15 25 50 degrees so if i were to cook a steak i want to cook it as hot as possible

00:18:38.080 in some instances so i've got the the vents completely open on the top and the bottom if i'm cooking

00:18:43.820 something more like a piece of fish which i might want a lower fire right you know right around that

00:18:48.820 300 degree marker then i'll be closing off those vents so that i'm just being able to control the

00:18:54.080 airflow which is also going to control the heat that's coming in a charcoal and a wood setup we're

00:18:58.900 going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors and now back to the show so let's talk

00:19:04.820 about lighting up a grill uh you mentioned a few ways you can do the chimney there's got turbocharger

00:19:09.840 things what do you think is the best way to light a grill going you know i i really like that kind of

00:19:15.740 technology i'm probably calling it the wrong thing a turbocharger it sounds like something out of the

00:19:19.500 80s but um i love it because i just dump charcoal in and then i stick that in and and within a few

00:19:25.260 minutes i've got a fire but the problem is if you're trying to get something done very quickly

00:19:29.820 the issue is you've got to kind of continue to stoke that fire around several different points and

00:19:34.740 before you know it you've spent 10 minutes sitting out there lighting different points in the fire

00:19:38.920 i think for a chimney it's super convenient and and i would argue brett we need to get you a charcoal

00:19:44.460 grill because uh you could actually just stuff some newspaper into a chimney fill it with lump charcoal

00:19:50.620 or briquettes light it and within about 10 to 15 minutes they're going to be rip roaring hot you

00:19:56.120 pull them right into the grill and you'll be preheated and about the same time that you would

00:20:00.480 have with your gas grill as well so i'm a big fan of the chimney i'm not a fan of you know the match

00:20:06.760 light style briquettes or using you know any types of alternative fuel sources you know i grew up watching

00:20:13.120 my dad put a lot of that lighter fluid on charcoal and truth be told his burgers always tasted like lighter

00:20:18.160 fluid yeah if you are stuck in a pinch which i sometimes am with like maybe a good tailgate and

00:20:23.660 people pick up the wrong things my advice is to always make sure that if you're using a match light

00:20:28.920 charcoal or a lighter fluid to get that fire started that is okay you just want to make sure

00:20:34.040 that those coals are completely grayed out before you start cooking i see a lot of people that start to

00:20:39.180 cook too preemptively and it still has some of that lighter fluid flavor and that's not something you

00:20:44.040 want to be imparted in your food i've done that we had some people over for grilling it's like when

00:20:48.500 we first got married it's like my first time grilling i grilled some burgers and i got the

00:20:52.740 just poured lighter fluid all because i did what my dad did and my wife is like after it was over i

00:20:59.080 mean i knew it was like man this tastes like lighter fluid my wife's like that tasted just like lighter

00:21:02.780 fluid i'm sure they thought that tasted like and so i haven't i haven't done that since so yeah that's

00:21:07.900 a good point like when do you start like say if even if you use charcoal or briquettes whatever like when

00:21:13.600 do you when do you throw the meat on the grill because i think i i've probably had it i've

00:21:17.960 probably been throwing meat on too early yeah i mean the clear indicator like i said is the beauty

00:21:22.860 of both briquettes and the lump charcoal is they will they will gray over into that you know kind

00:21:28.260 of orange and gray ember and that's a great time and i wouldn't be too stressed either about worrying

00:21:34.120 that the fire is going to go out i mean whether you're using lump charcoal or briquettes even if you've

00:21:39.400 just got maybe a half a chimney's worth that's still going to cook for you for at least 30 to 45

00:21:43.920 minutes after they've gone gray so give it a little bit of time allow it to do its thing that's going to

00:21:49.180 pick up the best flavor you won't have to worry about you know anything off-putting and you're also

00:21:54.500 going to have the best control if you put it on too early that fire is still kind of working its way

00:21:59.160 and lighting coals and uh you're just not getting the maximum result out of that charcoal

00:22:03.380 uh what's your take on you know creating heat zones in your grill i am a huge fan of always

00:22:10.800 whenever possible uh if necessary setting up what i call a two zone fire we can do that really easily

00:22:17.240 on a gas grill right most gas grills have a few different burners so if you're working on a two

00:22:22.820 burner a three burner a four burner the idea is that you know one side of my grill i'm going to dial

00:22:28.000 that knob up to medium high and the other side of the grill i'll dial to a medium low of course when

00:22:34.540 you're cooking with gas if you feel like it's too hot you can just turn down the knobs and immediately

00:22:39.260 kind of reduce that temperature but you don't really have that luxury with charcoal because there's no knob

00:22:44.720 to turn it on or off obviously we talked about changing some of the oxygen and airflow but that takes

00:22:50.340 more time so by setting up a two zone fire if i'm cooking you know a burger or steak or a piece of

00:22:56.920 chicken i might want to put that chicken breast on the grill over the direct zone to get that skin

00:23:02.200 nice and crispy but i know that if i leave it there you know it's going to burn that actual skin and i'm

00:23:08.420 not going to get the results i want so then i move it to the indirect zone and i can play between the two

00:23:13.600 which gives me control over the fire and i think that's a big mistake that a lot of folks make especially

00:23:18.580 when they're starting out you mentioned your mistake about everything tasting like charcoal and i think

00:23:22.940 it's so funny how as you become older you realize some of the things your dad did wrong my dad

00:23:26.880 did that one the first time we went fishing as an adult i i remember him not really being able to

00:23:31.680 tie a hook and i thought to myself he taught me how to do this so it's always weird when you're

00:23:36.100 teaching those lessons but um setting up that two zone and not just having it all in one place

00:23:40.860 will give a lot of folks comfort and control over the cooking process and so with charcoal to create

00:23:45.960 that two zone like one side would have all the charcoal the other you'd leave the other side empty maybe

00:23:50.440 in that instance we would refer to that as horizontally offset or indirect so you've piled

00:23:56.140 the coals to one side there are some other grills that allow you flexibility from a vertical standpoint

00:24:01.840 as well you could actually you know move the grates up and down so some of my favorite ones that have

00:24:07.860 that type of setup you can you can alter the the vertical separation between the grate and the coals so

00:24:13.440 if i put it down close to the coals i'm getting a direct zone and obviously if i move the grate more

00:24:18.300 vertically away from that then that creates an indirect zone as well i think the the hasty bake

00:24:23.280 grill based here in tulsa oklahoma they they have that feature they do and actually what's unique

00:24:28.540 about the hasty bake is it does not have a top vent it's got a bottom vent and then it has the exit

00:24:34.480 vent which is actually below the food grate and their concept there was to really make the heat convect

00:24:41.980 around the the heat source rather than coming up from the bottom and just exiting the top

00:24:46.340 it makes it kind of spin around the grill and that's one of the unique tools about that grill

00:24:50.240 and it's one of my favorites quite frankly it's really nice i went to a demonstration down at

00:24:54.500 the headquarters and i was like i want one of these they're pretty they're pretty pricey but i think if

00:24:58.620 you're really into cooking it might be worth it yeah uh there's a gentleman uh burn company that we

00:25:03.880 featured adam who actually was a hasty bake grill salesperson and he said they've been selling them

00:25:10.040 the same way with the old show and tell method to customers ever since they came out so it's a

00:25:15.060 it's a fantastic product so you mentioned convection that's that's something we could

00:25:18.280 probably get into because when you're grilling meat you're cooking the meat in different ways

00:25:21.920 right let's talk about the convection convection i can't i don't know all of them but you know

00:25:27.360 what i'm talking about yeah i mean when we talk about like direct heat is a term that's really

00:25:32.100 common throughout all recipes so that's kind of radiant heat and you can just think of that as like

00:25:36.780 heat from the sun right it's just radiant it's just beaming down on you convection would be what i would

00:25:42.800 refer to as kind of indirect grilling i give a scenario in the book like if i'm standing in the

00:25:47.360 sun i'm picking up all that radiant heat if i go under the shade it's a little more gentle but it's

00:25:53.440 sort of like convection heat it's still hot and then we also have to take in mind conduction that's the

00:25:59.620 actual heat that we get from conducting heat for example on a metal grate so standing out in the sun

00:26:06.320 it's radiant heat it's direct heat i get under a shade tree it's still indirect heat it's convective

00:26:11.380 but if i sit on a metal bench it's also conduction so you got a lot of different features that are

00:26:18.960 taking place that you have to think about when you're grilling all right so let's talk about

00:26:22.740 tools that you think people should have on hand for grilling besides tongs and maybe a spatula

00:26:29.320 anything else besides that you know we live in a day and age where technology can be our friend

00:26:34.980 and one of the things i always recommend especially if you've not had any experience and it's not just

00:26:40.320 just grilling alone it's just a digital meat thermometer i mean why worry about it when you

00:26:46.000 have a piece of equipment that you can buy a decent one for 10 to 15 bucks it's going to give you the

00:26:51.740 internal temperature and also temperatures within your grill i mean one of the first things that go

00:26:56.800 wrong on a grill is the actual thermometer that comes with it so i recommend that folks maybe buy a

00:27:03.200 thermometer for actually really gauging the the heat level within the grill but also a digital meat

00:27:08.640 thermometer to make sure that their temperatures are cooked up to speed so if you want to make sure

00:27:12.780 that steak is always going to be medium rare you're going to be able to find out very quickly

00:27:16.720 if you're too worried about the chicken not being completely done you know it's something that you

00:27:21.300 can learn and i i say that because as you cook with time your reliance on that meat thermometer becomes

00:27:27.460 less and less if you cooked a steak 100 times in your life you you know and just by sensation and feel

00:27:34.600 and timing and experience you'll be able to pull that off but one of those great tools you mentioned

00:27:39.560 tongs but i use them all the time when it comes to grilling i mean that's my my most used tool i also

00:27:44.740 think that it's super important for you to have you know like a grill pan or a basket you know we we do

00:27:49.840 talk a lot beyond just cooking meats and proteins about vegetables and salads and oftentimes we don't

00:27:55.460 want those things to get lost in the charcoal so having a grill pan or a basket allows us to

00:28:00.740 you know roast cut corn very quickly so you get kind of that caramel style corn instead of doing

00:28:06.840 it on the cob so some of those tools are really useful you don't have to invest a lot of money

00:28:11.920 and the last one would be just keeping your grill clean so a simple scraper if you don't have that on

00:28:17.440 hand you know one of my favorite things to use is just foil we use foil a lot when we're grilling i go

00:28:22.140 to a local campsite with my family and if there's an old school grill out there i didn't bring my grill

00:28:26.700 brush but i can just crumple up some foil scrape that up against the grates and it cleans off that

00:28:31.400 grill to my satisfaction no the meat thermometer is a game changer because i mean in the past before

00:28:36.580 i got one if i wanted to check if the meat was done you have to take it off and just like cut it

00:28:41.100 open which just ruins it for the presentation yeah so yeah i i highly recommend it's also just good to

00:28:47.060 have like if you do smoking or you're roasting i use it all the time when we roast our annual prime rib

00:28:53.760 you got to have the meat thermometer it's a great yeah great birthday gift great father's day gift

00:28:58.300 or just pick one up for yourself you're going to treat yourself and they're complicated you know

00:29:01.740 i have a real cheap one it goes back to that style of there's bluetooth ones that speak to your phone

00:29:07.720 but i kind of like the idea of having an excuse to go outside because if i'm just sitting inside

00:29:11.820 on the bluetooth and my wife knows like i said she's going to come up with other things for me to be doing

00:29:16.340 all right so we got the grill going got our tools time to grill let's start with the basics

00:29:22.060 because memorial day is coming up people around the country are going to be grilling burgers what's

00:29:27.160 the best way to grill a burger so it's not just some sort of charred thick hockey puck great question

00:29:34.400 you know one of my favorite articles that we've done for art of manliness is the hemingway burger

00:29:38.380 which he recommended being cooked on a flat top so actually in the book we visit alma mater the

00:29:45.540 university of georgia and we go to a place that's called the grill and uniquely there they're actually

00:29:50.880 using a flat top griddle fueled by electricity so i know some grilling purists will take aim but i

00:29:57.240 truly believe a burger is best cooked on a flat top especially in cast iron because it just creates an

00:30:04.520 even sear it allows the burger to cook in its own juices i think that hemingway burger recipe is

00:30:10.720 fantastic we have a triple cheeseburger recipe in the book we've got mushroom swiss burgers but if you

00:30:16.920 want to actually do it out on your grill and pick up some of that nice charcoal flavor if that's what

00:30:21.600 you're using you can just put a cast iron pan directly on those grill grates allow it to preheat

00:30:27.560 like you would on the stove top and then cook your burger accordingly so it's one of my all-time

00:30:32.240 favorite tricks and it's absolutely the best way to cook a burger yeah i have to agree with that i mean

00:30:36.620 over i always because i every we do the grilling on the the grill with the burger and as you're you're

00:30:42.000 grilling the burgers you just hear all that fat dripping and hissing it's like that's all the

00:30:47.840 flavor it's going away yeah but then when you get the when you put it on the flat top it just tastes

00:30:51.980 a lot better 100 and it's kind of more foolproof it's easier to turn them you know so you can pick

00:30:57.780 up a cheap cast iron pan and and have one always outside for your grilling needs it's one of my

00:31:02.640 favorite ways to go and and truth be told one of my favorite meals that's just a super classic that

00:31:08.020 we find uh in multi layers throughout the book any prep on that just simple salt and pepper what's

00:31:13.760 your take i mean always with a burger simple salt and pepper you know the hemingway burger involved

00:31:18.520 that's pretty it's almost like it's almost like a meatloaf yeah but i'll tell you man it is

00:31:24.160 seriously delicious i'm not just saying it because uh hemingway came up with it it's honestly one of

00:31:30.340 the best burgers i've ever had it's it's a good it it was a good burger all right so burgers

00:31:35.560 cast iron skillet or at least buy something cast iron you put on the grill other classic grilling

00:31:41.760 is steak what's the best way to grill a steak to get the perfect just juicy steak yeah you know we

00:31:49.160 actually explore a couple different methods and we've explored this in some articles as well but

00:31:54.540 i think if you're using a thinner cut of steak you know whether it's like a strip steak or something

00:32:00.120 along those lines or a skirt steak we we want to cook it really as hot and fast as possible because

00:32:05.840 it's it's thin so we want to get that maillard reaction to occur but we don't want to cook it too

00:32:11.820 long because otherwise we're going to cook it past my preferred preference of of a medium rare to rare

00:32:17.760 so in those instances you really want to use that kind of hot and fast method to to develop the sear

00:32:23.360 to allow that steak to get that nice char on both sides but pull it off the heat and allow it to rest

00:32:29.720 so that you're not bringing that internal temperature above 130 degrees now when it comes to larger cuts

00:32:37.560 like a tomahawk steak which is really popular right now or thick cut ribeyes or even a filet one of the

00:32:44.120 techniques that's become very very popular that we showcase in the book is the reverse sear meathead the

00:32:50.820 gentleman that i mentioned earlier he calls it the redneck sous vide and for those again that it may

00:32:55.960 have flown past you sous vide is a french style cooking where you immerse things in a water

00:33:01.420 controlled bath at a low temperature you can actually do the same thing on a grill by cooking it at

00:33:07.820 indirect heat maybe at around 185 degrees a grill temperature so very very low heat and what happens

00:33:15.080 is uh over time that entire cut if it's a thick ribeye for example from edge to edge the idea is

00:33:23.460 that you know we'll bring that entire piece of meat very very gently and slowly up to our desired

00:33:28.880 temperature call it maybe 120 degrees we'll pull it off of that and then get our fire nice and hot

00:33:34.940 and then sear the steak to create that maillard reaction remember brown food is good food

00:33:39.880 and what ends up happening is you'll have a steak that's perfectly cooked edge to edge at that 130 to

00:33:47.020 135 degrees whereas if i were to take a big thick tomahawk and do it in the traditional manner of

00:33:53.540 cooking it over direct heat to get a sear and then moving it off we're really only going to have kind of

00:33:58.400 a thinner zone of that perfect temperature so the reverse sear is something that i really encourage it's

00:34:03.900 also great for entertaining because you can actually uh pre-cook those steaks maybe an hour or so in

00:34:09.680 advance and then when your guests arrive you can cook them up to temperature based on each guest's

00:34:14.340 preference how long does that slow part of the reverse sear take like is it 40 minutes an hour is

00:34:20.420 it what are you what is it what are you looking at yeah i think you know the steak whatever cut you're

00:34:25.060 using it needs to be at least an inch and a quarter thick preferably thicker in my opinion so at 185

00:34:31.260 degrees if you can get your gas grill you might just be putting one burner on on on the lowest

00:34:36.240 setting and then cooking it horizontally offset as far as possible just to kind of keep it away and

00:34:41.660 make it a gentle heat because we want to bring the entire piece up at the same time so you're looking

00:34:45.500 at 45 to 50 minutes for something like that and again that's another area where a great digital

00:34:51.840 thermometer is going to benefit you and i'll tell folks if they're going to do this don't worry that

00:34:57.960 when you get through that 45 to 50 minute period that it looks sort of like this gray mass you're going

00:35:03.500 to sear it off and get that delicious beautiful look from the the charred meat but the cool thing

00:35:09.140 is when you slice into it you actually really don't even have to let it rest because you've cooked it so

00:35:13.200 gently the entire steak should be that perfect medium rare that that that dark pink center that you're

00:35:19.280 looking for and you wrote an article on the reverse sear a couple years ago for aom and so uh we did

00:35:24.500 yeah we'll we'll make sure to link to that and i know when people did it like we got letters saying

00:35:28.480 that was the best steak i've ever had in my entire life so it works it works i love that and in prep

00:35:33.920 on steak again simple salt pepper that's pretty much it yeah pat them dry i think one thing i really

00:35:40.120 like that i've been doing just right now we we make mention of it in the book is is a dry brine you

00:35:45.980 know every thanksgiving there's always these stories about brining and how complex it is and it's 24 hours

00:35:52.620 i always think that's a little bit of nonsense i think a dry brine is essentially just adding

00:35:57.600 a decent amount of of kosher salt to proteins to vegetables maybe an hour or so before you cook

00:36:05.080 so if i have a big old thick tomahawk or ribeye i'm actually just going to season it pretty liberally

00:36:10.260 on both sides with salt and that will actually absorb and allow the the steak to to retain moisture

00:36:16.420 on the grill and then patting it dry before you put it on you grill it and it actually is still going

00:36:21.280 to need some some more salt after you cook it i like to to maybe slice it and season it with some nice

00:36:26.200 sea salt or again kosher salt right before i serve it as well yeah my mouth's watering right now

00:36:31.400 all right let's talk about chicken and i've found in my years of grilling i found chicken to be

00:36:37.240 surprisingly tricky to grill like it's trickier than beef because like what will happen is i'll get it

00:36:42.500 nice i'll get that nice brown on the outside then you cut open to it and it's just raw so what's going

00:36:48.060 what am i doing wrong with chicken yeah i mean chicken can be one of those finicky proteins to

00:36:54.200 really perfect and it's really obviously just as similar to a turkey because it's the same style

00:36:59.020 i think first and foremost what do we love about chicken well we love that crispy skin and we love

00:37:05.340 it when it's really nice and tender and juicy and so what we have to do is is to be able to create

00:37:10.940 the ability for us to control getting that nice crispy skin but also having the temperature

00:37:16.320 to a place that we're not burning it to where it dries out and i think that's really where a two

00:37:21.120 zone fire really shines so in that instance i will typically take a whole chicken which i love and i'll

00:37:28.080 do a method which we call a spatchcock essentially we just take kitchen shears or a nice knife and cut

00:37:33.840 out the backbone it's very simple and then we are able to turn it back over kind of like an open book

00:37:39.700 and then just press down on the breast which will just pop the breast and that will allow us to

00:37:45.060 create an even surface so the the dark meat and the white meat really come together at the same time

00:37:50.940 so that's one of those methods if you're cooking a whole bird even if you're just cooking you know

00:37:55.060 a chicken breast or a chicken thigh or a chicken wing the idea is to cook it over direct heat to get

00:38:00.460 that nice crispy char on the outside of the skin and then you can move it to the indirect heat that

00:38:06.340 convection style heat to where we know we're not going to burn the skin anymore and we're going to just

00:38:11.340 allow that chicken to come to to the right temperature i typically will cook it to about

00:38:16.100 a temperature of about 160 degrees again another great example of why you might want a good meat

00:38:21.680 thermometer and you want to make sure that you're actually getting that thermometer not just maybe

00:38:25.960 a quarter inch into the breast or the thigh you want to make sure that you're taking it at the center

00:38:30.100 and even at the bone to make sure that you're you're pulling it off at a safe time and then you let

00:38:34.360 it rest it's still going to cook up another five to eight degrees when you pull it off that grill and that

00:38:39.000 will be perfectly cooked great piece of chicken like one of the problems with chicken that makes

00:38:43.360 it tricky is that it like particularly chicken breast it's uneven right so it's like it'll be

00:38:47.480 thin and then as it gets to like the the big part of the breast it gets bigger and then it'll get

00:38:51.440 smaller again so you know the the edges might be cooked but like the middle is just still pink

00:38:57.920 yeah and you can you can fix that problem by you know just taking a mallet and just kind of pounding

00:39:03.680 it out or even just kind of pressing on it with the the heel of your your hand just kind of creating

00:39:09.660 that that even source i think probably one of my favorite techniques that we do in the book with

00:39:15.500 chicken specifically is boneless chicken thighs these have really come back into favor lately they're

00:39:20.420 super affordable and truth be told because it's the dark meat of the chicken it loves high heat

00:39:25.340 you get a nice sear on it you really can't mess it up as long as you cook it even if you overcook

00:39:30.980 it it's still going to be really tender and juicy and then we actually serve it with a kind of a

00:39:35.480 board salsa so we're actually kind of doing a reverse marinade to add even more moisture to it

00:39:40.860 that's one of my favorite recipes in the book it's a grilled chicken thigh with herb salsa it's a

00:39:45.780 foolproof chicken recipe that is great for entertaining and the leftovers are delicious too

00:39:50.920 all right seafood seafood is tricky because it can dry out fast if you're not

00:39:55.340 grilling it right so what's the what's the secret there yeah i think larger cuts of fish

00:40:00.360 are more akin to cooking a steak you know like a grilled salmon is a great example i mean you're

00:40:07.140 actually cooking salmon pretty similarly to what you would do on a steak side because you want that

00:40:12.560 internal temperature to be more of a medium style and even for some of your other cuts like halibut

00:40:18.160 and cod and other items like that so you are cooking that over direct heat to develop that that sear

00:40:24.800 i often recommend if people have not really had a lot of experience grilling before fish is one of

00:40:30.860 those things that just always sticks to the grates so one of the ways we prevent that is making sure

00:40:35.620 that our grates are clean making sure that we've pat the fish dry because we want to eliminate that

00:40:41.240 moisture so we develop the sear because when you're searing it what happens is the proteins in the fish

00:40:46.680 or any cut is actually kind of lifting itself off of the grate to stop from sticking if it's too much

00:40:53.640 moisture there then it's actually just going to sit there and stick on the grill and when you go to

00:40:57.800 flip it you're going to be frustrated by it so one of the ways we could avoid that all together

00:41:01.680 is a a grill basket a fish basket so where you're able to just lock it in and put it directly on the

00:41:08.480 grate and just turn it within that basket and then open it up and serve it so i think for those that

00:41:13.620 are maybe just starting out on a piece of fish it's cooking it hot and fast and then pulling it

00:41:18.220 off the fire you know you don't have to move it a lot between zones but a basket is one of those

00:41:22.320 things that until you become very comfortable with it you'll still be able to impress your guests with

00:41:27.340 that beautiful presentation yeah grilled salmon is my favorite man i just taste so tasty what i did

00:41:33.320 with grilled salmon i grill it and then i just put like a pat of butter sure like to finish it off and

00:41:37.920 just like let the butter melt that's how i like it it tastes delicious yeah i mean butter makes

00:41:42.540 everything better i mean we do uh in the book a grilled salmon with kind of a creamy cucumber

00:41:47.240 relish which uh it's just kind of that balance between hot and cold and a little bit of tanginess

00:41:52.680 to it but yes i mean grilled salmon is one of my favorites and it's really really easy it's it's a

00:41:57.840 little more steaky like in terms of texture so it actually holds up a little bit better like salmon

00:42:03.320 and halibut compared to a more delicate fish like a trout or a flounder those are a little bit more

00:42:09.040 difficult because the meat is so delicate it's it's one that even the pros can can have break

00:42:13.900 apart on them on the grill so set yourself up for success and and look for those cuts as you're just

00:42:18.580 sitting started and you mentioned this earlier you can besides just grilling meat you can also grill

00:42:23.380 produce vegetables fruit what are your favorite things like sort of like no-brainer things you can

00:42:28.480 grill that's produce yeah i mean i think all of us think of summertime and grilled corn so there's a

00:42:34.300 recipe that we have a grilled corn instead of just the traditional butter we're adding some feta cheese

00:42:38.900 and dill just to kind of take it to the next level really any any vegetable like my my kids if i were to

00:42:45.640 roast brussel sprouts they probably wouldn't eat them but if i put a piece of asparagus or a brussel

00:42:51.360 sprout on the grill there's just something about that flavor that they absolutely love so i really think

00:42:56.820 you know the idea of becoming a cereal griller is that it doesn't matter the course or the meal we can

00:43:02.400 all make it better over fire that includes salads too you know lettuces believe it or not over direct

00:43:08.700 heat will pick up quite a bit of that smoky flavor and char which just takes that you know caesar salad

00:43:14.400 or cob salad or whatever you're looking to do to the next level fruits are one of my favorites you know

00:43:20.540 i'm a southern guy i've never apologized for that one of my favorite desserts is a peach cobbler but

00:43:25.460 as i've gotten older as we all do i realize that i have to work out a lot harder if i want to eat

00:43:29.880 that peach cobbler so i love just a simple grilled peach on the grill it's super straightforward maybe

00:43:36.740 finish it with some honey serve it with maybe a vanilla greek yogurt if i'm being really good

00:43:41.300 vanilla ice cream if i'm not being so great but i've really cut down a lot of the calories from

00:43:45.640 the traditional peach cobbler by cutting out the carbs and all the extra butter we have grilled

00:43:50.460 watermelon we've got grilled strawberries figs so you're just taking the natural sugars and allowing

00:43:56.040 that maillard reaction to occur and it just transforms your everyday vegetable or fruit

00:44:01.560 into something that's just even more delicious yeah the grilled grilled peach sounds really good

00:44:05.980 but i would probably put a little brown sugar on it uh yeah you can do that and butter you know but

00:44:12.560 again i was trying to that make it more a lot of heavy lifting so yeah that sounds i'm gonna go try

00:44:17.940 that well well matt we've kind of talked about high level tips on how you can cook uh this different

00:44:22.980 stuff but the book's got lots of recipes where you go into detail where can people go to learn

00:44:27.380 more about the book and the rest of your work yeah thanks so much brett it's been a pleasure and

00:44:31.440 it's crazy this is the fourth book we've always had a chance to talk this through so so thanks to

00:44:35.740 that and thanks for everybody for supporting obviously you know i want folks to go out and support their

00:44:40.960 local bookstores so this book is available nationwide wherever books are sold and also online

00:44:46.620 until we're completely opened up and uh being able to to enjoy getting out once again and cooking with

00:44:52.700 with others all right well matt moore thanks so much time it's been a pleasure thanks so much brett

00:44:56.880 my guest today was matt moore he is the author of the book cereal griller it's available on amazon.com

00:45:01.780 and bookstores everywhere pick yourself up a copy it's really really good also check out our show

00:45:06.380 notes at aom.is slash cereal griller we can find links to resources we can delve deeper into this topic

00:45:11.580 well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast check out our website at art of manliness.com

00:45:23.360 where you find our podcast archives well as thousands of articles we've written over the

00:45:26.520 years about pretty much anything including matt's cooking articles check that out and if you'd like

00:45:30.260 to enjoy ad free episodes of the aom podcast you can do so on stitcher premium head over to

00:45:33.960 stitcherpremium.com sign up use code manliness at checkout for a free month trial once you're signed

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00:45:43.260 if you haven't done so already i'd appreciate if you take one minute to give us review on apple

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00:46:08.420 you

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The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

#612： Grillmaster Secrets for Flame-Cooked Perfection

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